A Mark In Time
Previous Tours => 2011 Mark Knopfler & Bob Dylan Tour => Topic started by: jbaent on December 05, 2011, 06:04:37 PM
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As you may know, Bob Dylan is one of the most bootleged artists, probably together with Bruce Springsteen, and it was very likely to see some of the concerts released as silver disc bootlegs.
We have the first one, by Godfather Records
(http://s3.subirimagenes.com:81/otros/previo/thump_7209590gr693.jpg)
BOB DYLAN AND HIS BAND "Down Every Street" 2-CD
"Godfatherecords". Bournemouth, England, International Centre, October 14, 2011
CD 1: Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat, This Wheel
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got a link Jbaent??
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No, sorry, just received the information from a friend, I
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It's a bit strange that BD/his management engaged a service to delete unauthorized videos on youtube (read that at expectingrain) and on the other hand bootlegged recordings of his shows are being sold at the same time.
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It's a bit strange that BD/his management engaged a service to delete unauthorized videos on youtube (read that at expectingrain) and on the other hand bootlegged recordings of his shows are being sold at the same time.
They don't like videos ? >:(
I'm gonna take care of them. ;)
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Allegedly it has been getting better recently:
http://expectingrain.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?p=1054967&sid=229e663906bbfda271d302fc75f792d1
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Godfather records usually just repackage torrent downloads from dimeadozen.org.
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This is a review of the Godfather release of Bournemouth
http://www.collectorsmusicreviews.com/dylan-bob/bob-dylan-down-every-street-godfather-records-gr-693694/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CollectorsMusicReviews+%28Collectors+Music+Reviews%29 (http://www.collectorsmusicreviews.com/dylan-bob/bob-dylan-down-every-street-godfather-records-gr-693694/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CollectorsMusicReviews+%28Collectors+Music+Reviews%29)
Godfather also released the Roma (with extra songs from other italian dates) and a 3cd compiling the 3 concerts in London.
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Bob Dylan And His
Band "Hammersmith Gran Finale" 3-CD "Godfatherecords"
(http://s2.subirimagenes.com/otros/previo/thump_7418597gr710.jpg)
CD 1: London, England, HMV Hammersmith Apollo, November 20, 2011:
Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat *, It’s All Over Now, Baby Blue *, Things Have
Changed *, Tryin’ To Get To Heaven *, Honest With Me, Tangled Up In Blue,
Summer Days, Blind Willie McTell, Highway 61 Revisited, Desolation Row,
Thunder On The Mountain, Ballad Of A Thin Man
CD 2: All Along The Watchtower, Like A Rolling Stone.
London, England, HMV Hammersmith Apollo, November 21, 2011: Leopard-Skin
Pill-Box Hat *, It’s All Over Now, Baby Blue *, Things Have Changed *,
Spirit On The Water, Honest With Me, Forgetful Heart, The Levee’s Gonna
Break, Man In The Long Black Coat, Highway 61 Revisited, Desolation Row
CD 3: Thunder On The Mountain, Ballad Of A Thin Man, All Along The
Watchtower, Like A Rolling Stone, Forever Young **
London, England, HMV Hammersmith Apollo, November 19, 2011: Don’t Think
Twice, It’s Alright *, Mississippi *, The Lonesome Death Of Hattie Carrol,
Ballad Of Hollis Brown, Make You Feel My Love, A Hard Rain’s A- Gonna Fall,
Jolene
* w/Mark Knopfler On Guitar
** w/Mark Knopfler On Guitar and Vocals
Trifold cardbox with 6 color pages booklet
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Bob Dylan And His
Band "In The Eternal City" 2-CD "Godfatherecords"
Rome,
Italy, Palalottomatica, November 12, 2011:
(http://s3.subirimagenes.com:81/otros/previo/thump_7418604gr710.jpg)
CD 1: Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat *, Don
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jbaent they are all marvelous! Where can I find them, order them or get in touch with the people that sell them? I have found many bootlegs here in Greece, but they are from tours from 1990ies. They were rush released but they look very good and the way you describe them... Yammy!
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Its quite difficult nowadays...
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News from the bootlegging front, up and coming are:
Crystal Cat, a bootlegger who produces very high quality stuff, has some sets coming out from the last tour:-
AUTUMN IN GLASGOW - BOB DYLAN : This is a 2-CD set from 9 October
AUTUMN IN GLASGOW - MARK KNOPFLER : A single CD from 9 October
The above are also available as a 3-CD set in a box.
Crystal Cat is also planning a 6-CD set entitled LIVE FROM HAMMERSMITH, covering all three London shows. There is no indication as to content, so I don't know if these are (1) complete shows or (2) one complet show plus the different songs form the other two shows, nor (3) whether Mark's sets are included or not.
Crystal Cat is noted for top sound quality and attractive packaging. (he records his shows himself)
With special thnx to Twm.
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"Autumn In Glasgow." Sounds like they got that name from The Scottish Tourist Board! ;D
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No pictures etc etc?
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Nothing here yet
http://www.bootlegpedia.com/
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A friend of mine tells me that he already saw that Glasgow boot in ebay...
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Wonderful :)
Hopefully they will be out soon :)
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A friend of mine sent me this link to ebay:
http://global.ebay.com/BOB-DYLAN-MARK-KNOPFLER---THE-GLASGOW-BOX-2011-CC-987-89/140734509987/item (http://global.ebay.com/BOB-DYLAN-MARK-KNOPFLER---THE-GLASGOW-BOX-2011-CC-987-89/140734509987/item)
The covers are not very nice, but I
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Now that the Glasgow boot is confirmed, twm, Any news about the Hammersmith one?
I wish that Crystal Cat would release a MK compilation of the three days, or at least something like the Godfather one.
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looks like Crystal Cat is about to release the Hammersmith Box
All three Dylan concerts, the extra songs on first concert looks like songs where MK played in several venues.
(http://www.giginjapan.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/bobdy-hammersmith-box2.jpg)
(http://www.giginjapan.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/bobdy-hammersmith-box11.jpg)
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Nice. Gotta have it...
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News from the bootlegging front, up and coming are:
Crystal Cat, a bootlegger who produces very high quality stuff, has some sets coming out from the last tour:-
AUTUMN IN GLASGOW - BOB DYLAN : This is a 2-CD set from 9 October
AUTUMN IN GLASGOW - MARK KNOPFLER : A single CD from 9 October
The above are also available as a 3-CD set in a box.
Crystal Cat is also planning a 6-CD set entitled LIVE FROM HAMMERSMITH, covering all three London shows. There is no indication as to content, so I don't know if these are (1) complete shows or (2) one complet show plus the different songs form the other two shows, nor (3) whether Mark's sets are included or not.
Crystal Cat is noted for top sound quality and attractive packaging. (he records his shows himself)
With special thnx to Twm.
Sounds to me that soomeone is clearly making a profit making these available as a 3 CD BOX set.
Why on earth are we supporting that someone is making money of our favorite artists ? ??? :disbelief :disbelief
I would gladly download a bootleg that someone made available for free, but to pay him for a 3 CD set he recorded himself ... forget it...
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i already got this show in so many versions peter, but still i am a sucker for packages like this.
anyways, they lose more and more money i am sure as more and more fans are learning that all is out there, for free....
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Correct Pottel and I do not want to be a "policeman" here ;)
But advertising for a guy that makes money for something that is clearly not his in ANY WAY.
He should be nailed if you ask me.... Thats just my opinon.-
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Silver bootlegs are a collector item, flac or mp3 downloads are... Just downloads
What I dont like, and I hate, are people doing crappy cdr bootlegs and selling them. I know that there are bootleggers relaseing cd-r pro, in other words, bootlegs with lightscribbed cdr instead of silver ones, with a quality printed cover and back, and sometimes a booklet. But there are people selling bad printed copies of them... That people sucks as that items doesnt have any value as collector items.
Silver pressed bootlegs are collector items that in the 90's were very easy to find and the value was in the covers, backs, and booklets. Now they are more rare but some bootlegers still release them and they worth the money, specially the ones by Crystal Cat or the Godfather. Very good packages, nice covers with great pictures. Collector items. You pay for what you get, the package.
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A friend of mine sent me this link to ebay:
http://global.ebay.com/BOB-DYLAN-MARK-KNOPFLER---THE-GLASGOW-BOX-2011-CC-987-89/140734509987/item (http://global.ebay.com/BOB-DYLAN-MARK-KNOPFLER---THE-GLASGOW-BOX-2011-CC-987-89/140734509987/item)
The covers are not very nice, but I
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The quality of the pictures is the same in my copy. Thats the only bad thing on it, they should had used a better picture.
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still no bootlegs edited from this fall tour... Anyone has any clue if there is something in the pipeline?
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still no bootlegs edited from this fall tour... Anyone has any clue if there is something in the pipeline?
nope. nothing...(meaning i heard nothing)
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I basically have the same objections as Peter, and I can't understand how people who consider themselves as "fans" are so willing and ready to shoot their "favorite artist" in the back by collecting (and even paying undeserving) individuals for work not unauthorized by those very artists!
See, the issue is not only about who makes and who doesn't male money on it (although that is an important issue) - it's also about artistic integrity. Read Calvin and Hobbes' 10th anniversary book in which Watterson writes a lot about his objections to merchandising and bootlegging. A lot of it has to do with the artist's OVERALL vision of his work. Would he approve of a cover that he never saw? Would the collection and ordering of tracks on a bottlegged CD satisfy his idea of a concept album or would they reflect the choices HE would have made? Or, looking at it the other way around, which item tells me more about an artist I appreciate - an album he put together himself including booklet design, cover colors, track selection - or some selection put together by somebody he never met?
I can't see how anyone could consider himself/herself a fan who does not care about those issues. I can see putting together a CD or personal favorites of MK for myself and possibly a few of my friends, but it is understood that this would be nothing but a compromise between his work and my appreciation for it. I'd curse myself to hell for attempting to make any money off it.
Sorry, this just had to come out.
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You'd better make sure when you make these compilation CD's that MK approves of the track order you have chosen because it may not be his vision for an album. Also, when you buy CD's, remember they are for your own personal use only. ;)
If I may just reply to your comment regarding bootlegs: you are of course entitled to your opinion and I respect it, but I wouldn't say I have ever shot MK "in the back" and despite buying bootlegs I do still buy all the official releases and attend concerts when he tours. I think I do my bit to pay his mortgage! ;D
If I can get my hands on some unreleased MK music/live material I've never heard before, then I'll surely buy a bootleg to hear it. I can't understand any MK fan who wouldn't do the same! :hmm
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I really admire your opinion RAc. I can follow your train of thought, but I don't quite agree. I have stopped being just a fan long ago, and I consider myself an obsessed idiot, ;) at least regarding the MK output. As such, I find that there are legal grounds on my defense, when buying/trading any of these bootlegs. Because, I am very much interested not only in his officially released music, but also his unofficially recorded songs, in order to have a closer look to his creative procedure. I know that fans like me are very few, probably less than 500, worldwide. These releases wouldn't have been viable if they were official, and most probably that is the reason why they have never become available.
As for the matter of MK's overall vision of his work, I really think that you have a point. (and I would love to read this book you are quoting.) But as I mentioned, these bootlegs are for a very small obsessed audience, that buys/trades them knowing in deeper detail than the average fan and listener the works of a man. He surely makes the distinctions that you mention and can understand what is what. As a matter of fact, what he cares in these bootlegs is the contained music and he can only appreciate and enjoy if it is packed in a nice sleeve. Some are so well made, obviously a work of a fan, that we can really talk about like a formal release, but again, it is for the few obsessed fans! MK has very few unofficial studio recordings, but still, they are very interesting and I would have missed a part of the story if I was unaware of them. Anyway he is not like Dylan, whose "bootleg series" (most of them previously bootlegged) already reached a double digit.
And last but not least, this talk has to do with two desires: One to have the artist's Overall vision and on the other hand to be able to have an insight to his creative progress, by finding the left over. Very few people other than us would even care to spend all this time and effort and resources to track and go after these recordings. And since the live recordings are also bootlegs, and MK has many of those, usually in download format, with no cover or money changing hands, I say it is the closest you can get to experiencing a concert, that otherwise you would be unable to be present. I have written about it in another thread, but in short, I know that the great number of recordings, means that very few people will have the time and mind to go through, so again it is us fans. And the live experience which is not meant to be recorded has dynamics that overshadow the resulted recording. But for those recordings MK has stated that he is OK with them, probably knowing that only a few hundreds of fans will go after them, even if unofficially pressed.
dmg puts it in the right perspective.
In for a dollar, in for a dime.
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i d not share that thought Rac.
i, someone calling himself a fan, going to +10 shows per tour, buying all albums in multiple versions, buying singles all over the place, buying all the official live stuff i can get my hands on, WILL also get bootleg recordings, preferrably WITHOUT paying for them, as someone will always liberate them, but if i stumble across a nicely package bootleg, i WILL pay.
coz i like to collect anything related to MK (mugs anyone?)
all in all i do not want to condone people buying this stuff, only the ones making bad quality shit and selling that for a lotta money to people who never heard of torrenting or p2p.
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it's a telling story that all of you argue only in terms of yourself - your own interest in collecting whatever is available from your favorite artist. The artist and his attitude himself are of ne relevance to your argument.
Question: Would your desire and practice to blindly collect whatever is out on the market change if you knew for sure that the artist approved or disapproved of it? Do you even care? If not, what kind of respect you think you pay to the artist and his work?
There's the famous movie Diva from the 80s. It's about an opera singer (played by Wilhelmina Fernandez) whose belief in the uniqueness of her art is so strong that she doesn't record, only perform life. The story is about a "fan" of hers - a young man who is so obsessed with her singing that he steals one of her dresses that she wore during a performance that he illegaly recorded. The tape becomes a piece of a mixup puzzle with a parallel strand of crime story, but that's not of interest here. The Diva and her "fan" become lovers through a strange set of circumstances, and as she finds out that if was him who betrayed her deepest feelings about her art, she becomes furious and resentful.
If I were an artist and found out that this is how my "fans" treat my work, I'd stop making art right there and become a hermit. Real artists may think about the issue differently (some even condone bootlegging openly), but every one deserves to be asked whether they approve or not - and their attitudes deserve to be respected, at the very least by those who consider themselves admirers of the artist's work.
None of you even bothers to ask that question. I think that's rotten.
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it's a telling story that all of you argue only in terms of yourself - your own interest in collecting whatever is available from your favorite artist. The artist and his attitude himself are of ne relevance to your argument.
Question: Would your desire and practice to blindly collect whatever is out on the market change if you knew for sure that the artist approved or disapproved of it? Do you even care? If not, what kind of respect you think you pay to the artist and his work?
There's the famous movie Diva from the 80s. It's about an opera singer (played by Wilhelmina Fernandez) whose belief in the uniqueness of her art is so strong that she doesn't record, only perform life. The story is about a "fan" of hers - a young man who is so obsessed with her singing that he steals one of her dresses that she wore during a performance that he illegaly recorded. The tape becomes a piece of a mixup puzzle with a parallel strand of crime story, but that's not of interest here. The Diva and her "fan" become lovers through a strange set of circumstances, and as she finds out that if was him who betrayed her deepest feelings about her art, she becomes furious and resentful.
If I were an artist and found out that this is how my "fans" treat my work, I'd stop making art right there and become a hermit. Real artists may think about the issue differently (some even condone bootlegging openly), but every one deserves to be asked whether they approve or not - and their attitudes deserve to be respected, at the very least by those who consider themselves admirers of the artist's work.
None of you even bothers to ask that question. I think that's rotten.
wrong, coz we know what mark thinks of fan recordings/bootlegs. He approved on more then one occasion. Know your facts before you accuse a bunch of people.
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This is taken from Jeroen's wonderful On Every Bootleg site - THE bootleg database:
Mark Knopfler has his own distinct opinion regarding the lawsuit intended by the music industry against Napster and the shops selling bootlegs:
"I am against this lawsuit. It was said TV would be the end of cinema, it was said tapes would kill records and CD burners would kill CD's, but that's not true. Technology will always progress. The only real danger comes from countries which practise industrial piracy. I've always encouraged the recordings of my concerts. From the stage I had fun seeing all those little red lights of recorders and these microphones hold by fans. That's no danger and even quite cool. Fans who buy bootlegs already own all the official albums anyway. They do us no harm and I find these raids against bootlegs shops ridiculous."
Interview by Sacha Reins, Le Point, 22th September 2000
This issue over collecting bootlegs has always been something that either one does or doesn't but I think we have to respect each others decision to do whatever we want. Our man doesn't mind! :)
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I've always encouraged the recordings of my concerts. From the stage I had fun seeing all those little red lights of recorders and these microphones hold by fans.
This issue over collecting bootlegs has always been something that either one does or doesn't but I think we have to respect each others decision to do whatever we want. Our man doesn't mind! :)
He seems to have changed his mind over the last few years, though! :-\
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I've always encouraged the recordings of my concerts. From the stage I had fun seeing all those little red lights of recorders and these microphones hold by fans.
This issue over collecting bootlegs has always been something that either one does or doesn't but I think we have to respect each others decision to do whatever we want. Our man doesn't mind! :)
He seems to have changed his mind over the last few years, though! :-\
I think that's only on video recording, not on audio.
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I've always encouraged the recordings of my concerts. From the stage I had fun seeing all those little red lights of recorders and these microphones hold by fans.
This issue over collecting bootlegs has always been something that either one does or doesn't but I think we have to respect each others decision to do whatever we want. Our man doesn't mind! :)
He seems to have changed his mind over the last few years, though! :-\
I think that's only on video recording, not on audio.
true
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Dear RAc, I was trying to make a point at my previous post that you either fail to understand or just don't think important enough. I am glad though that you mention the movie DIVA, because it is one of my favorite movies, and I also paid attention on the aspect you mention.
But let me point it out once again. Even though in an absolute world your logic would really stand solid and the law follows suit in this, we are living in a world where there is not even one example of such behavior and action you so passionately defend. I don't believe that your opinion has to do with law abidance, but merely the moral dimension, so tell me about this : When an artist dies the recipients of his fortune sell every little scrap of work (paintings, drawings, photographs, recordings, shit in tin etc) proclaiming it is a hidden aspect of the artist's genius or whatever. Most probably things that would be destroyed by the artist if death was not sudden, or things that for the artist had great emotional value, but not artistic. These works are made public and legal, without the consent of the artist. Of course you can say that MK is still alive, but I dare you to deny that you have enjoyed some of the post humus works that were released (see: Hendrix, Doors, Janis Joplin, Marvin Gaye, Buddy Holly and numerous others) .
Should we consider all these works garbage and ignore them? Or maybe we should place them in the historical context and use them as a view of a "work in progress" / documentary, in order to discover the hidden aspects of a finished work we all love.
And do you think that apart certain examples (Van Gogh) the world would really pay attention to such works from an unknown artist? No it will always be from artists with solid reputation, whose works already sell very well and very high. And even in these cases how many people would even care? Only the die hard fans.
Now take MK, whose records' sales are heavily reduced since his DS heyday. How many die hard fans who really love and care for his works would look for such bootlegs? 300-500 worldwide? They are the real preservers of his legacy, living historians with a knowledge of the artist and his recordings, that some times is better that the artist has. And most of all THEY, and by they I include myself, so WE, admire the artist's his official work and can clearly separate the unofficially released work, respect the artist and his decisions, evaluate the extra work in context with the official one , put it in perspective and preserve it in time. Again I mention that we are talking about 300-500 people worldwide! I would consider myself lucky if I had such a following, taking good care of the work that I don't officially release(I am a photographer and I have more work unreleased than released) That said, your point still stands since you believe it so strongly.
Oh and Diva! I think (if I remember correctly) that a record company was involved with the release. And the problem wasn't so much the recording itself, but the intension of a well known company to release it worldwide. Of course if there was no recording, there wouldn't be any talk about releasing it. But, of course the whole point of the artist in Diva, was the sense of her performance which should have been unique and not reproduced ad infinitum. A point that if you care to look at my previous posts at other threads, I advocate but not very passionately, and is derived from Christopher Small 's book.
http://www.amazon.com/Music-Society-Education-Culture/dp/0819563072/ref=la_B001KI0UZQ_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1358708978&sr=1-3
It mostly has to do with the uniqness of the experience from a preformance and how that changed with RECORDED music. Not official and unofficial but recorded music. So we can create a fixional moral issue, when in fact the whole music industry has destroyed the very sense you describe by selling tracks individually, by pricing heavily the deluxe editions for 3 or five extra songs and other schemes (additional songs in Amazon, itunes etc) . And the artist has no control whatsoever in this. Also, the hudreds of live recordings of MK can only be appreciated by very few people as a total number. I don't even count myself in these people, even though I try to find them and collect them . But, exactly because I can only spare time to listen to such concerts only once or twice, I find that I am closer to the original idea of music, which is a unique EXPERIENCE, and thus can not be repeated twice. (the point of Chris Small) Then it is more of a logical procedure, that gives you the pleasure, by each repeated play. The pleasant feeling of recognising and being able to follow with your mind. And of course for many of us, listening to these recordings is the only way to hear him live, since he rearly comes over.
And by writing this, I don't diminish the validity of your points, but I don't believe that it has to do with personal interest. Especially when you name it COLLECTING. It is a below the belt punch to most of us here, that don't to it for the sake of collecting, but listen to them. You have to consider that my life doesn't revolve around MK or any other artist. That it is only for pleasure and as such trivial and I can live without it. On the other hand the artist and his work has more to gain by fans like us, rather than lose, and of course the respect you claim we don't have, is simply a logical leap assumption.
And two other points in your mail: I would want to collect even things he wouldn't approve. And I would carry that knowledge when I listen to them and try to understand why. That is the exact meaning of fan. And if it is done post humus and in the context of a university it would be the meaning of scholar. It has nothing to do with the artist as a person but the artist as an image-mainly created through his works, since we don't know him personally. So, respect the artist, and respect every piece of work he has done good or bad, official or unofficial. That is the biggest compliment ever. Disrespect? I don't think so.
If you were an artist you would really not care a bit about these issues, you would only be intrested in creating new things and broadening your horizons.
If you were big, successful and rich, but a real artist you would even understand the nature of bootlegs and their huge part in the creation of music history and legends (have you ever found bootleg recordings by artists lost in time?) and accept their existance and many times even allow it (MK and Grateful dead being examples).
On another dimension of the topic, that you rightly avoid mentioning, I remember a nice story told by Robert Plant, when visiting Turkey. They entered a music shop with Jimmy Page and they came across dozens of bootleg records, both live and counterfeit, and Page outraged, just took them and left the shop without paying, saying something like : " since I don't get paid for my work when these are sold, I am taking them without paying, too". Plant was left behind, paid for the records, trying to justify (the just to my opinion) Page's attitude. Plant understood and accepted the simple truth that only commercial artists are bootleged, and usually these artists do not need the money and these bootlegs are creating the extra edge that actually helps the artists sell more officially.
Metallica and Dr.Dre went ahead with the Napster lawsuit, thinking that their diving sales were mainly due to the illegal downloading, when actually they were playing the game of their record companies, since they were bound to sell less because their recorded works at the time were far inferior, the record companies were over pricing the CDs for far too long, and they actually had not even considered the possibility of selling online at the time. !0 years after and itunes was selling like crazy, selling more individual tracks than whole records and turning a losing battle into a money maker. The result is that the new generation, think of music as a disposable way to be entertained. This is the end of music as we know it. So fans like us, are the relics of an older generation and what goes with it.
Sorry for the long post, since this is not live and a real dialogue, but rather two monologues in a row, I try to cover as many points as possible.
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Live Unofficial recordings are the only way to millions of fans to get to know how a band plays live.
In my case, I never attended a Dire Straits show, but I know very well his perfomances thanks to all that tapers that recorded them throught their story.
Many people from many countries where MK doesn
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steve lukather is a twat. and he deserves dwindling sales for such statements on his fans.
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steve lukather is a twat. and he deserves dwindling sales for such statements on his fans.
well, interesting. What's your personal consequence out of this, uhm, well founded, factual and benevolent insight? Not buying anything by Toto/Lukather (anymore)? Not listening to their music at all (anymore)? Not buying/downloading anything bootlegged (anymore)? Or, on the contrary, deliberately obtaining and spreading bootlegged Toto material... just to harm their sales?
It's good that I brought up this topic - if not for anything else, then for the fact that a forum in which the moderators (!) display preposterous, disrespectful up to the point of insulting and abhorrent attitudes towards the subject of this forum (musicians) is no place for me. Except for vgonis, whose points I do not share but who has taken the time to take up my points and formulate cultivated and thoughtful responses (Kudos and thanks), this thread is the total and complete antithesis to the red pages. I'm outta here.
P.S. For all of those who would wish to point out that my own contributions may not always have appeared cultivated - everything I ever used negative terms for was attitudes, never individuals. That's a big difference.
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Lukather
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steve lukather is a twat. and he deserves dwindling sales for such statements on his fans.
well, interesting. What's your personal consequence out of this, uhm, well founded, factual and benevolent insight? Not buying anything by Toto/Lukather (anymore)? Not listening to their music at all (anymore)? Not buying/downloading anything bootlegged (anymore)? Or, on the contrary, deliberately obtaining and spreading bootlegged Toto material... just to harm their sales?
It's good that I brought up this topic - if not for anything else, then for the fact that a forum in which the moderators (!) display preposterous, disrespectful up to the point of insulting and abhorrent attitudes towards the subject of this forum (musicians) is no place for me. Except for vgonis, whose points I do not share but who has taken the time to take up my points and formulate cultivated and thoughtful responses (Kudos and thanks), this thread is the total and complete antithesis to the red pages. I'm outta here.
P.S. For all of those who would wish to point out that my own contributions may not always have appeared cultivated - everything I ever used negative terms for was attitudes, never individuals. That's a big difference.
i never bought toto records, never downloaded or bought toto roio's so no change in my behaviour against mr. Lukather and band.
i think if someone writes openly (or hidden) about their fans in such a way, i believe he is not worthy of fans at all.
we are just having a discussion here, and heavily not agreeing, but there is no need to take this personal Rac, not at all.
we always wanted this forum to be as open as possible, and only object to racial, religous slurs or personal insults, and i do not think i purpously insulted you. if that happened, well it was not my intention ,so sorry. again, just a discussion.
and i am not a mod.
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you never insulted me, so you won't need to apologize to me. At least you did not call ME a twat or anything similar.
It would really make a difference if you apologized to everybody who you DID call a twat. THAT's the point I keep trying to make.
Goodbye forum.
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mm, what did i miss here? who, besides steve L. did i call a twat?
"everybody"?
maybe i'm working to hard, but i cannot remember calling anyone that.
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just checked all my posts, i called no one else but a certain musician a "twat".
so you must be confusing me with someone else...
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I am new here, but I THINK I understand the essense of what RAc meant. ...Rather than you calling multiple people "twats", I THINK RAc means you need to apologize to Everyone on the forum for calling Steve Lukather a twat.
In my opinion, there is no need to apologize to everyone -- or to anyone, for that matter. You are entitled to your opinion, as we all are here on this forum. It was not offensive to me -- not in the slightest. And I THINK I speak for many.
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RAc's point about twats obviously refers to the point he was trying to make about downloading unofficial music from artist without their concent. He believes that when someone is doing it is like calling all these artists twats. This is exactly the point we were discussing and we all disagreed with RAc. A shame really, because AMIT has so many things to offer, apart this very thread.
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just checked all my posts, i called no one else but a certain musician a "twat".
so you must be confusing me with someone else...
well, my decision to leave the forum remains unchanged. I just feel like adding this post because I think it's (positively) remarkable that so many people try to interpret my last contribution (even though I thought I was clear), so let me clarify:
The only person you (openly) insulted as a "twat" (please refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twat to understand just how poor and unfair the usage of this term is, by the way) was Mr. Lukather. Now I understand that the chances that a) Mr. Lukather will ever know that you did that or b) that you would ever have a chance to apologize personally (if you ever cared to) are extremly slim.
Now. Why did I write "everybody you insulted" if this only applies to a single individual? Well, the insult "twat" was only the examplification of the attitude that lies behind it. This is what I have been trying to express all the time: Musicians are no social workers and therefore not under the obligation to provide free music to the world. Artists in general do have a legitimate interest and right to define the terms under which they are willing to share their art, and if I consider myself an admirer of the artist's work, I respect that attitude. Your attitude towards Toto's music is at least consistent; you consider Steve Lukather's attitude about his work and the terms under which he is willing to share it as preposterous and elitarian, therefore you don't consume it in any way. Fine. I refuse to listen to anything by the Stones as well because as a human being, Mick Jagger imho is a complete failure and an a****** (no apologies ever. Please note that my assessment of him doesn't have anything to do with his policy of sharing his art or anything else professionally, just his personality). Clear terms and clear actions.
In my view of things, it is illegitimate to ignore an artist's desire to define the terms under which he is willing to share his work. It is even more unacceptable to insult an artist for it. It has nothing to do with a "discussion" or a "debate" to take your view as granted and insult an artist on the grounds of your view for his differing view. I hope that clarifies what I meant.
And please, differentiate a little bit. There *is* a big difference between recordings on the one hand and paraphernalia such as public pictures or show T-shirts on the other hand. Also, the question what happens to an artist's legacy after his death has nothing to do with his sentiments about the usage of his art while he is alive. Those issues should be discussed separately.
This "discussion" we are having is very strongly related to the worldwide debate that is currently happening about intellectual property rights in the times of the internet. Just because everybody is led to believe that mp3s, youTube videos and every photo ever taken is public domain (and the practice of dealing with those things on the internet sort of fosters that belief) doesn't mean that that's the way it has to be, and it doesn't mean that that's right.
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Well, I think that this talk is going nowhere. I mean what is the use? These difference of opinions will remain the same. I only like this as a logic game.
So let me answer some of your new points. In his original post Mr. Lucather actually refers to the person who recorded the show as an idiot. That is a personal opinion obviously, that maybe it should never be made public, or maybe true, regarding the context (far fetched anyway). But it still is derogative and insulting. Such a remark, really made a bad impression on every fan that read it, since obviously the person who recorded it was a fan and did it only to share it with other fans. As I have stated, this attitude, no matter how legitimate or logical on the part of the artist, certainly defies every definition given for fans:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_%28person%29
This is pretty peculiar because Toto are famous and have a vast fanbase, which actually follow them through the years and consumed even the not so good work of the band. So Mr. Lucather, should join the dots and understand what a fan is and what a fan is bound to do. It is his right to deny the presence of any recorders and torrents of his music, but he is crossing a thin line on the front of fans when he makes such statements. Because yes, they are the same fans that buy his official released music.
Of course this is a matter of symantics. I mean that obviously, when you call names, someone you don't really know, you are probably pissed with a certain action or behaviour of the person. So when you say idiot or twat, you probably mean idiotic action, or twatty behaviour. Let me also say that some phrases do create very deep impressions and cast meanings, without using any "French". You translated the "twat" phrase as "preposterous and elitarian". Words that were not in the text whatsoever! But it is normal, I got the same impression as well. And it is probably the real meaning he was trying to convey!
Using the Internet the boundaries of private and public are blurred. This is a site, private and public at the same time. Every opinion written is public if you care to search and find it, but public in the sense that very few people actually come here knowingly and post their opinion. And even in this case, they interact with people that know them a bit better, or share a big part of interests or/and ideas, so their words are not misinterpreted. I mean that if you are a public figure, and scan the internet for opinions you will stumble upon such eventually. Do the authors have the right to express their opinion? YES. The use of words is the real issue here. But as I have stated, it is symantics. I wouldn't even bother to search for such opinions and even if I do, I certainly expect to see such things. Everything after that would be a childish behaviour.
Now, I may share the same feeling with you about Mick, but I wouldn't go as far as to express them in public, (now, have I expressed them or not? ;) ) simply because I don't care and also because nobody else cares about my opinion! Even if I do I am still able to enjoy some of their records and have most of them. It is two different things! The only moral issue that I understand and recognise, is that by buying any records by such artists, I actually help them live a fancy life, and keep this behaviour. But we can't only reward the moral artists, can we? The western arts are full of sinners artists!
I have also written about the copyrights' issue and how art and intellectual property turns to rights and money. I will not go into that again, because if we want to differentiate, we should really wonder if the laws that affect and eventually shape our perception about things and the world are also just, logical and for the general interest. I see no reason for big companies to have the rights for 100 years! It is certainly illogical, unjust and surely against every sense of public interest. It is done only for the profit! And the same goes for other more important issues as pharmaceutical patents etc.
See, the problem is that even if I am allowed to express myself, I am in no position to influence anybody. The companies have the power to change the laws and our lives, without even saying so in public!
If we are dealing here with a moral issue and not a legal one, I believe that you should really take into account the "legacy after his death". Because what we call morals are actually very powerful unwritten laws, of a philosophical, metaphysical and social beliefs. And usually they were the pool from where the written laws were derived. But nowadays the written laws are dictated with other things in mind and from corporate pools.
Closing this issue, I will again say that your original point is valid and I understand it completely. But there are so many things on the other side (seemingly not related, but in reality very tight together) that actually counter balance it. Of course it is not up to me to deside!
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Boring.and pls don't come here and give me a language course, considering you're German.
I never spoke about legacy after death.
I said twat because I was really upset by this blatant disrespect of mr. Lukather towards this fan who made the mistake of not respecting a no recording rule. But apparently did pay to go to a show of that same man that publicly insulted him.
You are right in that the man will never see my calling him a twat, and you are right in that I I will never, EVER apologise, unless the man takes back his original insult.
And this brings us back to the common agreement, this forum is made to discuss and (dis)agree.
If you can't stand that, pls feel free to leave.
Now let's close this thread.
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Boring.and pls don't come here and give me a language course, considering you're German.
I never spoke about legacy after death.
I said twat because I was really upset by this blatant disrespect of mr. Lukather towards this fan who made the mistake of not respecting a no recording rule. But apparently did pay to go to a show of that same man that publicly insulted him.
You are right in that the man will never see my calling him a twat, and you are right in that I I will never, EVER apologise, unless the man takes back his original insult.
And this brings us back to the common agreement, this forum is made to discuss and (dis)agree.
If you can't stand that, pls feel free to leave.
Now let's close this thread.
Agree Pottel - It has run it's course.
We are a lucky group here given that our man is so comfortable with his world that he's OK with audio recordings. Prolly saves him a lot of flak from his Southern Hemisphere fans who don't often get to see him live also.
Closed.....