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Author Topic: Bootlegs  (Read 13525 times)

OfflineRAc

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2013, 08:36:08 AM »
I basically have the same objections as Peter, and I can't understand how people who consider themselves as "fans" are so willing and ready to shoot their "favorite artist"  in the back by collecting (and even paying undeserving) individuals for work not unauthorized by those very artists!

See, the issue is not only about who makes and who doesn't male money on it (although that is an important issue) - it's also about artistic integrity. Read Calvin and Hobbes' 10th anniversary book in which Watterson writes a lot about his objections to merchandising and bootlegging. A lot of it has to do with the artist's OVERALL vision of his work. Would he approve of a cover that he never saw? Would the collection and ordering of tracks on a bottlegged CD satisfy his idea of a concept album or would they reflect the choices HE would have made? Or, looking at it the other way around, which item tells me more about an artist I appreciate - an album he put together himself including booklet design, cover colors, track selection - or some selection put together by somebody he never met?

I can't see how anyone could consider himself/herself a fan who does not care about those issues. I can see putting together a CD or personal favorites of MK for myself and possibly a few of my friends, but it is understood that this would be nothing but a compromise between his work and my appreciation for it. I'd curse myself to hell for attempting to make any money off it.

Sorry, this just had to come out.

Offlinedmg

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2013, 09:03:24 AM »
You'd better make sure when you make these compilation CD's that MK approves of the track order you have chosen because it may not be his vision for an album.  Also, when you buy CD's, remember they are for your own personal use only. ;)

If I may just reply to your comment regarding bootlegs:  you are of course entitled to your opinion and I respect it, but I wouldn't say I have ever shot MK "in the back" and despite buying bootlegs I do still buy all the official releases and attend concerts when he tours.  I think I do my bit to pay his mortgage! ;D

If I can get my hands on some unreleased MK music/live material I've never heard before, then I'll surely buy a bootleg to hear it.  I can't understand any MK fan who wouldn't do the same! :hmm
"...if you don't do your twiddly bits, the world's not right for people."

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2013, 10:03:13 AM »
I really admire your opinion RAc. I can follow your train of thought, but I don't quite agree. I have stopped being just a fan long ago, and I consider myself  an obsessed idiot,  ;)   at least regarding the MK output. As such, I find that there are legal grounds on my defense, when buying/trading  any of these bootlegs. Because, I am very much interested not only in his officially released music, but also his unofficially recorded songs, in order to have a closer look to his creative procedure. I know that fans like me are very few, probably less than 500, worldwide. These releases wouldn't have been viable if they were official, and most probably that is the reason why they have never become available.
As for the matter of MK's overall vision of his work, I really think that you have a point. (and I would love to read this book you are quoting.)  But as I mentioned, these bootlegs are for a very small obsessed audience, that buys/trades them knowing in deeper detail than the average fan and listener the works of a man. He surely makes the distinctions that you mention and can understand what is what. As a matter of fact, what he cares in these bootlegs is the contained music and he can only appreciate and enjoy if it is packed in a nice sleeve. Some are so well made, obviously a work of a fan, that we can really talk about like a formal release, but again, it is for the few obsessed fans! MK has very few unofficial studio recordings, but still, they are very interesting and I would have missed a part of the story if I was unaware of them. Anyway he is not like Dylan, whose "bootleg series" (most of them previously bootlegged) already reached a double digit. 

And last but not least, this talk has to do with two desires: One to have  the artist's Overall vision and on the other hand to be able to have an insight to his creative progress, by finding the left over. Very few people other than us would even care to spend all this time and effort and resources to track and go after these recordings.  And since the live recordings are also bootlegs, and MK has many of those, usually in download format, with no cover or money changing hands, I say it is the closest you can get to experiencing a  concert, that otherwise you would be unable to be present. I have written about it in another thread, but in short, I know that the great number of recordings, means that very few people will have the time and mind to go through, so again it is us fans. And the live experience which is not meant to be recorded has dynamics that overshadow the resulted recording. But for those recordings MK has stated that he is OK with them, probably knowing that only a few hundreds of fans will go after them, even if unofficially pressed.

 
dmg puts it in the right perspective.

In for a dollar, in for a dime.
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

OfflinePottel

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2013, 10:35:50 AM »
i d not share that thought Rac.
i, someone calling himself a fan, going to +10 shows per tour, buying all albums in multiple versions, buying singles all over the place, buying all the official live stuff i can get my hands on, WILL also get bootleg recordings, preferrably WITHOUT paying for them, as someone will always liberate them, but if i stumble across a nicely package bootleg, i WILL pay.
coz i like to collect anything related to MK (mugs anyone?)
all in all i do not want to condone people buying this stuff, only the ones making bad quality shit and selling that for a lotta money to people who never heard of torrenting or p2p.
any Knopfler, Floyd or Dylan will do....

OfflineRAc

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2013, 04:56:13 AM »
it's a telling story that all of you argue only in terms of yourself - your own interest in collecting whatever is available from your favorite artist. The artist and his attitude himself are of ne relevance to your argument.

Question: Would your desire and practice to blindly collect whatever is out on the market change if you knew for sure that the artist approved or disapproved of it? Do you even care? If not, what kind of respect you think you pay to the artist and his work?

There's the famous movie Diva from the 80s. It's about an opera singer (played by Wilhelmina Fernandez) whose belief in the uniqueness of her art is so strong that she doesn't record, only perform life. The story is about a "fan" of hers - a young man who is so obsessed with her singing that he steals one of her dresses that she wore during a performance that he illegaly recorded. The tape becomes a piece of a mixup puzzle with a parallel strand of crime story, but that's not of interest here. The Diva and her "fan" become lovers through a strange set of circumstances, and as she finds out that if was him who betrayed her deepest feelings about her art, she becomes furious and resentful.

If I were an artist and found out that this is how my "fans" treat my work, I'd stop making art right there and become a hermit. Real artists may think about the issue differently (some even condone bootlegging openly), but every one deserves to be asked whether they approve or not - and their attitudes deserve to be respected, at the very least by those who consider themselves admirers of the artist's work.

None of you even bothers to ask that question. I think that's rotten.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 04:58:43 AM by RAc »

OfflinePottel

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2013, 05:22:36 AM »
it's a telling story that all of you argue only in terms of yourself - your own interest in collecting whatever is available from your favorite artist. The artist and his attitude himself are of ne relevance to your argument.

Question: Would your desire and practice to blindly collect whatever is out on the market change if you knew for sure that the artist approved or disapproved of it? Do you even care? If not, what kind of respect you think you pay to the artist and his work?

There's the famous movie Diva from the 80s. It's about an opera singer (played by Wilhelmina Fernandez) whose belief in the uniqueness of her art is so strong that she doesn't record, only perform life. The story is about a "fan" of hers - a young man who is so obsessed with her singing that he steals one of her dresses that she wore during a performance that he illegaly recorded. The tape becomes a piece of a mixup puzzle with a parallel strand of crime story, but that's not of interest here. The Diva and her "fan" become lovers through a strange set of circumstances, and as she finds out that if was him who betrayed her deepest feelings about her art, she becomes furious and resentful.

If I were an artist and found out that this is how my "fans" treat my work, I'd stop making art right there and become a hermit. Real artists may think about the issue differently (some even condone bootlegging openly), but every one deserves to be asked whether they approve or not - and their attitudes deserve to be respected, at the very least by those who consider themselves admirers of the artist's work.

None of you even bothers to ask that question. I think that's rotten.

wrong, coz we know what mark thinks of fan recordings/bootlegs. He approved on more then one occasion. Know your facts before you accuse a bunch of people.
any Knopfler, Floyd or Dylan will do....

Offlinedmg

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2013, 06:30:44 AM »
This is taken from Jeroen's wonderful On Every Bootleg site - THE bootleg database:

Mark Knopfler has his own distinct opinion regarding the lawsuit intended by the music industry against Napster and the shops selling bootlegs:

"I am against this lawsuit. It was said TV would be the end of cinema, it was said tapes would kill records and CD burners would kill CD's, but that's not true. Technology will always progress. The only real danger comes from countries which practise industrial piracy. I've always encouraged the recordings of my concerts. From the stage I had fun seeing all those little red lights of recorders and these microphones hold by fans. That's no danger and even quite cool. Fans who buy bootlegs already own all the official albums anyway. They do us no harm and I find these raids against bootlegs shops ridiculous."

Interview by Sacha Reins, Le Point, 22th September 2000

This issue over collecting bootlegs has always been something that either one does or doesn't but I think we have to respect each others decision to do whatever we want.  Our man doesn't mind! :)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 06:36:26 AM by dmg »
"...if you don't do your twiddly bits, the world's not right for people."

Offlinesuperval99

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2013, 06:39:07 AM »
I've always encouraged the recordings of my concerts. From the stage I had fun seeing all those little red lights of recorders and these microphones hold by fans.
This issue over collecting bootlegs has always been something that either one does or doesn't but I think we have to respect each others decision to do whatever we want.  Our man doesn't mind! :)

He seems to have changed his mind over the last few years, though!   :-\
Goin' into Tow Law....

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Offlinedmg

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2013, 07:52:13 AM »
I've always encouraged the recordings of my concerts. From the stage I had fun seeing all those little red lights of recorders and these microphones hold by fans.
This issue over collecting bootlegs has always been something that either one does or doesn't but I think we have to respect each others decision to do whatever we want.  Our man doesn't mind! :)

He seems to have changed his mind over the last few years, though!   :-\

I think that's only on video recording, not on audio.
"...if you don't do your twiddly bits, the world's not right for people."

OfflinePottel

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2013, 10:46:27 AM »
I've always encouraged the recordings of my concerts. From the stage I had fun seeing all those little red lights of recorders and these microphones hold by fans.
This issue over collecting bootlegs has always been something that either one does or doesn't but I think we have to respect each others decision to do whatever we want.  Our man doesn't mind! :)

He seems to have changed his mind over the last few years, though!   :-\

I think that's only on video recording, not on audio.
true
any Knopfler, Floyd or Dylan will do....

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2013, 03:23:44 PM »
Dear RAc, I was trying to make a point at my previous post that you either fail to understand or just don't think important enough. I am glad though that you mention the movie DIVA, because it is one of my favorite movies, and I also paid attention on the aspect you mention.
But let me point it out once again. Even though in an absolute world your logic would really stand solid and the law follows suit in this,  we are living in a world where there is not even one example of such behavior and action you so passionately defend. I don't believe that your opinion has to do with law abidance, but merely the moral dimension, so tell me about this :  When an artist dies the recipients of his fortune sell every little scrap of work (paintings, drawings, photographs, recordings, shit in tin etc) proclaiming it is a hidden aspect of the artist's genius or whatever. Most probably things that would be destroyed by the artist if death was not sudden, or things that for the artist had great  emotional value, but not artistic.  These works are made public and legal, without the consent of the artist. Of course you can say that MK is still alive, but I dare you to deny that you have enjoyed some of the post humus works that were released (see: Hendrix, Doors, Janis Joplin, Marvin Gaye, Buddy Holly and numerous others) .
Should we consider all these works garbage and ignore them?  Or maybe we should place them in the historical context and use them as a view of a "work in progress" / documentary, in order to discover the hidden aspects of a finished work we all love.
And do you think that apart certain examples (Van Gogh)  the world would really pay attention to such works from an unknown artist? No it will always be from artists with solid reputation, whose works already sell very well and very high.  And even in these cases how many people would even care? Only the die hard fans.

Now take MK, whose records' sales are heavily reduced since his DS heyday. How many die hard fans who really love and care for his works would look for such bootlegs? 300-500 worldwide? They are the real preservers of his legacy, living historians with a knowledge of the artist and his recordings, that some times is better that the artist has. And most of all THEY, and by they I include myself, so WE,  admire the artist's his official work and can clearly separate the unofficially released work, respect the artist and his decisions, evaluate the extra work in context with the official one , put it in perspective and preserve it in time. Again I mention that we are talking about 300-500 people worldwide! I would consider myself lucky if I had such a following, taking good care of the work that I don't officially release(I am a photographer and I have more work unreleased than released) That said, your point still stands  since you believe it so strongly.
Oh and Diva! I think (if I remember correctly)  that a record company was involved with the release. And the problem  wasn't so much the recording itself, but the intension of a well known company to release it worldwide. Of course if there was no recording, there wouldn't be any talk about releasing it. But, of course the whole point of the artist in Diva, was the sense of her performance which should have been unique and not reproduced ad infinitum.  A point that if you care to look at my previous posts at other threads, I advocate but not very passionately, and is derived from Christopher Small 's book.
http://www.amazon.com/Music-Society-Education-Culture/dp/0819563072/ref=la_B001KI0UZQ_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1358708978&sr=1-3
It mostly has to do with the uniqness of the experience from a preformance and how that changed with RECORDED music. Not official and unofficial but recorded music. So  we can create a fixional moral issue, when in fact the whole music industry has destroyed the very sense you describe by selling tracks individually, by pricing heavily the deluxe editions for 3 or five extra songs and other schemes (additional songs in Amazon, itunes etc) . And the artist has no control whatsoever in this. Also, the hudreds of live recordings of MK can only be appreciated by very few people as a total number. I don't even count myself in these people, even though I try to find them and collect them . But, exactly because I can only spare time to listen to such concerts only once or twice, I find that I am closer to the original idea of music, which is a unique EXPERIENCE, and thus can not be repeated twice.  (the point of Chris Small) Then it is more of a logical procedure, that gives you the pleasure, by each repeated play. The pleasant feeling of recognising and being able to follow with your mind.   And of course for many of us, listening to these recordings is the only way to hear him live, since he rearly comes over.
And by writing this, I don't diminish the validity of your points, but I don't believe that it has to do with personal interest. Especially when you name it COLLECTING.  It is a below the belt punch to most of us here, that don't to it for the sake of collecting, but listen to them. You have to consider that my life doesn't revolve around MK or any other artist. That it is only for pleasure and as such trivial and I can live without it. On the other hand the artist and his work has more to gain by fans like us, rather than lose, and of course the respect you claim we don't have, is simply a logical leap assumption. 

And two other points in your mail: I would want to collect even things he wouldn't approve. And I would carry that knowledge when I listen to them and try to understand why. That is the exact meaning of fan. And if it is done post humus and in the context of a university it would be the meaning of scholar.  It has nothing to do with the artist as a person but the artist as an image-mainly created through his works, since we don't know him personally. So, respect the artist, and respect every piece of work he has done good or bad, official or unofficial. That is the biggest compliment ever. Disrespect? I don't think so.

If you were an artist you would really not care a bit about these issues, you would only be  intrested in creating new things and broadening your horizons.

If you were big, successful and rich, but a real artist you would even understand the nature of bootlegs and their huge part in the creation of music history and legends (have you ever found bootleg recordings by artists lost in time?)  and accept their existance and many times even allow it (MK and Grateful dead being examples).

On another dimension of the topic, that you rightly avoid mentioning, I remember a nice story told by Robert Plant, when visiting Turkey. They entered a music shop with Jimmy Page and they came across dozens of bootleg records, both live and counterfeit, and Page outraged, just took them and left the shop without paying, saying something like : " since I don't get paid for my work when these are sold, I am taking them without paying, too". Plant was left behind, paid for the records, trying to justify (the just to my opinion) Page's attitude. Plant understood and accepted the simple truth that only commercial artists are bootleged, and usually these artists do not need the money and these bootlegs are creating the extra edge that actually helps the artists sell more officially.
Metallica and Dr.Dre went ahead with the Napster lawsuit, thinking that their diving sales were mainly due to the illegal downloading, when actually they were playing the game of their record companies, since they were bound to sell less because their recorded works at the time were far inferior, the record companies were over pricing the CDs for far too long, and they actually had not even considered the possibility of selling online at the time. !0 years after and itunes was selling like crazy, selling more individual tracks than whole records and turning a losing battle into a money maker. The result is that the  new generation, think of music as a disposable way to be entertained.  This is the end of music as we know it. So fans like us, are the relics of an older generation and what goes with it.

Sorry for the long post, since this is not live and a real dialogue, but rather two monologues in a row, I try to cover as many points as possible.
 






 
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

Offlinejbaent

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2013, 04:42:35 AM »
Live Unofficial recordings are the only way to millions of fans to get to know how a band plays live.

In my case, I never attended a Dire Straits show, but I know very well his perfomances thanks to all that tapers that recorded them throught their story.

Many people from many countries where MK doesn
You might get lucky, now and then

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OfflinePottel

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2013, 02:40:17 PM »
steve lukather is a twat. and he deserves dwindling sales for such statements on his fans.
any Knopfler, Floyd or Dylan will do....

OfflineRAc

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2013, 04:32:34 AM »
steve lukather is a twat. and he deserves dwindling sales for such statements on his fans.

well, interesting. What's your personal consequence out of this, uhm, well founded, factual and benevolent insight? Not buying anything by Toto/Lukather (anymore)? Not listening to their music at all (anymore)? Not buying/downloading anything bootlegged (anymore)? Or, on the contrary, deliberately obtaining and spreading bootlegged Toto material... just to harm their sales?

It's good that I brought up this topic - if not for anything else, then for the fact that a forum in which the moderators (!) display preposterous, disrespectful up to the point of insulting and abhorrent attitudes towards the subject of this forum (musicians) is no place for me. Except for vgonis, whose points I do not share but who has taken the time to take up my points and formulate cultivated and thoughtful responses (Kudos and thanks), this thread is the total and complete antithesis to the red pages. I'm outta here.

P.S. For all of those who would wish to point out that my own contributions may not always have appeared cultivated - everything I ever used negative terms for was attitudes, never individuals. That's a big difference.

Offlinejbaent

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2013, 05:33:59 AM »
Lukather
You might get lucky, now and then

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