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Author Topic: Bootlegs  (Read 14482 times)

OfflinePottel

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  • Mark Knopfler
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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2013, 09:45:49 PM »
steve lukather is a twat. and he deserves dwindling sales for such statements on his fans.

well, interesting. What's your personal consequence out of this, uhm, well founded, factual and benevolent insight? Not buying anything by Toto/Lukather (anymore)? Not listening to their music at all (anymore)? Not buying/downloading anything bootlegged (anymore)? Or, on the contrary, deliberately obtaining and spreading bootlegged Toto material... just to harm their sales?

It's good that I brought up this topic - if not for anything else, then for the fact that a forum in which the moderators (!) display preposterous, disrespectful up to the point of insulting and abhorrent attitudes towards the subject of this forum (musicians) is no place for me. Except for vgonis, whose points I do not share but who has taken the time to take up my points and formulate cultivated and thoughtful responses (Kudos and thanks), this thread is the total and complete antithesis to the red pages. I'm outta here.

P.S. For all of those who would wish to point out that my own contributions may not always have appeared cultivated - everything I ever used negative terms for was attitudes, never individuals. That's a big difference.

i never bought toto records, never downloaded or bought toto roio's so no change in my behaviour against mr. Lukather and band.
i think if someone writes openly (or hidden) about their fans in such a way, i believe he is not worthy of fans at all.
we are just having a discussion here, and heavily not agreeing, but there is no need to take this personal Rac, not at all.
we always wanted this forum to be as open as possible, and only object to racial, religous slurs or personal insults, and i do not think i purpously insulted you. if that happened, well it was not my intention ,so sorry. again, just a discussion.
and i am not a mod.
any Knopfler, Floyd or Dylan will do....

OfflineRAc

  • Guitar George
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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2013, 11:09:19 PM »
you never insulted me, so you won't need to apologize to me. At least you did not call ME a twat or anything similar.

It would really make a difference if you apologized to everybody who you DID call a twat. THAT's the point I keep trying to make.

Goodbye forum.

OfflinePottel

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2013, 11:36:12 PM »
mm, what did i miss here? who, besides steve L. did i call a twat?
"everybody"?
maybe i'm working to hard, but i cannot remember calling anyone that.
any Knopfler, Floyd or Dylan will do....

OfflinePottel

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2013, 11:39:10 PM »
just checked all my posts, i called no one else but a certain musician a "twat".
so you must be confusing me with someone else...
any Knopfler, Floyd or Dylan will do....

OfflineLis

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2013, 02:41:52 AM »
I am new here, but I THINK I understand the essense of what RAc meant.  ...Rather than you calling multiple people "twats", I THINK RAc means you need to apologize to Everyone on the forum for calling Steve Lukather a twat. 

In my opinion, there is no need to apologize to everyone -- or to anyone, for that matter.  You are entitled to your opinion, as we all are here on this forum.  It was not offensive to me -- not  in the slightest.  And I THINK I speak for many. 
If there's whiskey in the bottle
Leave some for me
I'll get to it, eventually

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2013, 06:57:46 AM »
RAc's point about twats obviously refers to the point he was trying to make about downloading unofficial  music from artist without their concent. He believes that when someone is doing it is like calling all these artists twats. This is exactly the point we were discussing and we all disagreed with RAc. A shame really, because AMIT has so many things to offer, apart this very thread.
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

OfflineRAc

  • Guitar George
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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2013, 09:41:42 AM »
just checked all my posts, i called no one else but a certain musician a "twat".
so you must be confusing me with someone else...

well, my decision to leave the forum remains unchanged. I just feel like adding this post because I think it's (positively) remarkable that so many people try to interpret my last contribution (even though I thought I was clear), so let me clarify:

The only person you (openly) insulted as a "twat" (please refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twat to understand just how poor and unfair the usage of this term is, by the way) was Mr. Lukather. Now I understand that the chances that a) Mr. Lukather will ever know that you did that or b) that you would ever have a chance to apologize personally (if you ever cared to) are extremly slim.

Now. Why did I write "everybody you insulted" if this only applies to a single individual? Well, the insult "twat" was only the examplification of the attitude that lies behind it. This is what I have been trying to express all the time: Musicians are no social workers and therefore not under the obligation to provide free music to the world. Artists in general do have a legitimate interest and right to define the terms under which they are willing to share their art, and if I consider myself an admirer of the artist's work, I respect that attitude. Your attitude towards Toto's music is at least consistent; you consider Steve Lukather's attitude about his work and the terms under which he is willing to share it as preposterous and elitarian, therefore you don't consume it in any way. Fine. I refuse to listen to anything by the Stones as well because as a human being, Mick Jagger imho is a complete failure and an a****** (no apologies ever. Please note that my assessment of him doesn't have anything to do with his policy of sharing his art or anything else professionally, just his personality). Clear terms and clear actions.

In my view of things, it is illegitimate to ignore an artist's desire to define the terms under which he is willing to share his work. It is even more unacceptable to insult an artist for it. It has nothing to do with a "discussion" or a "debate" to take your view as granted and insult an artist on the grounds of your view for his differing view. I hope that clarifies what I meant.

And please, differentiate a little bit. There *is* a big difference between recordings on the one hand and paraphernalia such as public pictures or show T-shirts on the other hand. Also, the question what happens to an artist's legacy after his death has nothing to do with his sentiments about the usage of his art while he is alive. Those issues should be discussed separately.

This "discussion" we are having is very strongly related to the worldwide debate that is currently happening about intellectual property rights in the times of the internet. Just because everybody is led to believe that mp3s, youTube videos and every photo ever taken is public domain (and the practice of dealing with those things on the internet sort of fosters that belief) doesn't mean that that's the way it has to be, and it doesn't mean that that's right.

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2013, 11:05:57 AM »
Well, I think that this talk is going nowhere. I mean what is the use? These difference of opinions will remain the same. I only  like this as a logic game.

So let me answer some of your new points. In his original post Mr. Lucather actually refers to the person who recorded the show as an idiot. That is a personal opinion obviously, that maybe it should never be made public, or maybe true, regarding the context (far fetched anyway). But it still is derogative and insulting.   Such a remark, really made a bad impression on every fan that read it, since obviously the person who recorded it was a fan and did it only to share it with other fans.  As I have stated, this attitude, no matter how legitimate or logical on the part of the artist, certainly defies every definition given for fans:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_%28person%29
This is pretty peculiar because Toto are famous and have a vast fanbase, which actually follow them through the years and consumed even the not so good work of the band. So Mr. Lucather, should join the dots and understand what a fan is and what a fan is bound to do. It is his right to deny the presence of any recorders and torrents of his music, but he is crossing a thin line on the front of fans when he makes such statements. Because yes, they are the same fans that buy his official released music.

Of course this is a matter of symantics. I mean that obviously, when you call names, someone you don't really know, you are probably pissed with a certain action or behaviour of the person. So when you say idiot or twat, you probably mean idiotic action, or twatty behaviour. Let me also say that some phrases do create very deep impressions and cast meanings, without using any "French". You translated the "twat" phrase as "preposterous and elitarian".  Words that were not in the text whatsoever! But it is normal, I got the same impression as well. And it is probably the real meaning he was trying to convey!

Using the Internet the boundaries of private and public are blurred. This is a site, private and public at the same time. Every opinion written is public if you care to search and find it, but public in the sense that very few people actually come here knowingly  and post their opinion. And even in this case, they interact with people that know them a bit better, or share a big part of interests or/and ideas, so their words are not misinterpreted. I mean that if you are a public figure, and scan the internet for opinions you will stumble upon such eventually. Do the authors have the right to express their opinion? YES. The use of words is the real issue here. But as I have stated, it is symantics. I wouldn't even bother to search for such opinions and even if I do, I certainly expect to see such things. Everything after that would be a childish behaviour.   

Now, I may share the same feeling with you about Mick, but I wouldn't go as far as to express them in public, (now, have I expressed them or not?  ;) ) simply because I don't care and also because nobody else cares about my opinion! Even if I do  I am still able to enjoy some of their records and have most of them.  It is two different things! The only moral issue that I understand and recognise, is that by buying any records by such artists, I actually help them live a fancy life, and keep this behaviour. But we can't only reward the moral artists, can we? The western arts are full of sinners artists!


I have also written about the copyrights'  issue and how art and intellectual property turns to rights and money. I will not go into that again, because if we want to differentiate, we should really wonder if the laws that affect and eventually shape our perception about things and the world are also just, logical  and for the general interest. I see no reason for big companies to have the rights for 100 years! It is certainly illogical, unjust and surely against every sense of public interest. It is done only for the profit! And the same goes for other more important issues as pharmaceutical patents etc.

See, the problem is that even if I am allowed to express myself, I am in no position to influence anybody. The companies have the power to change the laws and our lives, without even saying so in public!

If we are dealing here with a moral issue and not a legal one, I believe that you should really take into account the "legacy after his death". Because what we call  morals are actually very powerful unwritten laws, of a philosophical, metaphysical and social beliefs.  And usually they were the pool from where the written laws were derived. But nowadays the written laws are dictated with other things in mind and from corporate pools.

Closing this issue, I will again say that your original point is valid and I understand it completely. But there are so many things on the other side (seemingly not related, but in reality very tight together) that actually counter balance it. Of course it is not up to me to deside! 
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

OfflinePottel

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2013, 08:21:33 PM »
Boring.and pls don't come here and give me a language course, considering you're German.
I never spoke about legacy after death.
I said twat because I was really upset by this blatant disrespect of mr. Lukather towards this fan who made the mistake of not respecting a no recording rule. But apparently did pay to go to a show of that same man that publicly insulted him.
You are right in that the man will never see my calling him a twat, and you are right in that I I will never, EVER apologise, unless the man takes back his original insult.
And this brings us back to the common agreement, this forum is made to discuss and (dis)agree.
If you can't stand that, pls feel free to leave.
Now let's close this thread.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 08:31:32 PM by Pottel »
any Knopfler, Floyd or Dylan will do....

Offlineshangri la 1

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Re: Bootlegs
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2013, 11:57:55 PM »
Boring.and pls don't come here and give me a language course, considering you're German.
I never spoke about legacy after death.
I said twat because I was really upset by this blatant disrespect of mr. Lukather towards this fan who made the mistake of not respecting a no recording rule. But apparently did pay to go to a show of that same man that publicly insulted him.
You are right in that the man will never see my calling him a twat, and you are right in that I I will never, EVER apologise, unless the man takes back his original insult.
And this brings us back to the common agreement, this forum is made to discuss and (dis)agree.
If you can't stand that, pls feel free to leave.
Now let's close this thread.
Agree Pottel - It has run it's course.
We are a lucky group here given that our man is so comfortable with his world that he's OK with audio recordings. Prolly saves him a lot of flak from his Southern Hemisphere fans who don't often get to see him live also.

Closed.....

 

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