#26:2012.11.12 Grand Rapids, MI, Van Andel Arena, USA # SPOILER AHEAD

[twm]

I have no doubt that you felt disappointed, sweet surrender, and I'm sorry about that but it is not a matter of manners, courtesy or respect. Contrary to what you say, I feel it is about how performer feels (in this case Bob and possibly Mark) and, in my view, so it should be. 

I once saw Ornette Coleman at the Royal Albert Hall with Yoko Ono but what they performed was just not to my musical taste at all. I thought it absolutely terrible and felt very disappointed, as there was nothing I could find in what they performed that gave me any pleasure or postive response at all. You cannot imagine my disappointment, not to say a touch of resentment, as I'd splashed for two tickets and I was still a student at the time. However, at no point (then or since) did I feel short-changed or that I'd been "disrespected" by Coleman. He came to do what he wanted to do and he did it. That's all the audience have the right to expect (or require) of a performing artist.  [I still have the concert programme book, so perhaps I'd get something on eBay for that. Who knows?]

I'd much rather have someone on-stage doing just what he or she wants to do and doing it just how they want to do it than someone doing something just because he or she thinks the audience will like it that way.

The only exception I can think of is some private show, paid for by a corporation or some rich individual, when the performer might be contracted to play particular songs as part of the agreed package.

[koobaa]

Interesting discussion. TWM has a point saying that it is always best for the show when artists do what they feel is right for the moment; however, it probably depends on how you look at the show itself. For example, Mark himself likes to refer to the show as a theatrical performance where there is only little room for improvisation and all the actors know their roles really well. To confirm this approach he rarely changes setlists and uses the same jokes each night, giving an impression of the well rehearsed stage play. This may be boring for get-a-lifers like us, but is fair for the average member of average audience coming to see one of the gigs of a tour. Now if you think about it this way, adding a surprise element on some nights i.e. MK joining BD (which by the way is a HUGE bonus for fans of both artists) is like adding another act to the play or another chapter to a book. Some audiences get to see / read it, some don't. That doesn't sound very fair not to say professional. I understand when concerts within the same tour change slightly, how they evolve in details but Mark joining Bob is a major change and a big highlight of the night, and it shouldn't be a privilege for only some audiences to witness it. Howgh.

[Rkd]

Could the explanation be something as simple as each of the artists wanting to get the ducks of their own personal shows in a row before expanding into a joint formation? (Sorry for the lame metaphor - it's migration time here!  )

[JF]

It's maybe not at the same level, but there was a similar fact with Hendrix's performances.

after the Monterey gig, most of people would come see to his concerts to see him playing guitar with teeth and so on ...

but he explained that sometimes he "felt" to do it, and sometimes not

Of course it was part of the show, but it was also due to his mood at the time.

I must admit that I don't know what to think about this BD/MK discussion. Both sides (twm or SS and Janet) got valid arguments IMHO

[jbaent]

MK: Hi Bob
BD: Hi Mark, what are you doing here?
MK: Bob, I'm touring with you
BD: Really? Since when?
MK: Since 13 concerts ago
BD: Really?
MK: Really
BD: Pick a number between 1 and 15
MK: Mmmm, 5?
BD: ok, tonight you play with me on song number 5
MK: Which song will be?
BD: We

[twm]

Interesting comment about plays in the theatre. There is a story and I may not recall exactly right but this is the essence.

A famous actor (I think it was Laurence Olivier) was in the middle of a longish run and, one evening, everything went really well, mainly because he had been stunningly good. The cast members were elated and gathered for a post-performance celebration. Soon, it was realised the actor wasn't there, so someone went looking and found him in his dressing room. Whilst everyone else was on a high, he looked a bit gloomy. Asked why, when everything had gone so well that evening, he replied (something like), "You don't understand. I don't know what did it". In other words, he would like to repeat that great performance but couldn't work out what he would have to do, specifically, to achieve it.

My point is two-fold.  (1) Even with a well-rehearsed performnace,  you can have good nights and you can have really, really good nights. (2) Performance in a live show can depend on so many different factors, some simply beyond our  comprehension.  It just comes together perfectly and that's the magic of live entertainment.

Getting back to the actor's story. Does it mean that the audience members who went all the other nights were short-changed or "disrespected" in some way? No, because, with a live performance, the dynamic will change each and every night. Now, I know that's not an exact match for the "Bob and Mark" situation but there are parallels.

Dylan, based on his shows over the last 25 years, does not seek simply to replicate a rehearsed show, night after night. Maybe, this is his nature - who knows? Rather, he seeks the "moment" and to re-present his songs in new ways. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it is admirable that he keeps on trying. Rather like the jazzmen of old, one might say, he seems anxious to avoid getting in a musical rut.

[dmg]

Dylan, based on his shows over the last 25 years, does not seek simply to replicate a rehearsed show, night after night. Maybe, this is his nature - who knows? Rather, he seeks the "moment" and to re-present his songs in new ways. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it is admirable that he keeps on trying. Rather like the jazzmen of old, one might say, he seems anxious to avoid getting in a musical rut.

I respect him for that and wish Mark would change his show a little more than one song per night.  Safe and steady, that's our Mark. 

In saying that, they are completely different performers and one could say that Mark changes his shows with improvisation during his solos in the same songs night after night. 

[twm]

Yes, two great performers with two different appraoches to performance. A great combination, to my mind.

Perhaps they'll both learn something from one another.

[JF]

In saying that, they are completely different performers and one could say that Mark changes his shows with improvisation during his solos in the same songs night after night. 

well not so much, but indeed much more than during the LOG tour for example, when Hal Lindes said "Mark played his lyrics solos, exactly the same way, night after night"
and if you're listen to sveral gigs from LOG tour, you won't hear too much difference.

He uses improvisation a little more now, but it's not an improvisation way like you could hear from guitarists like many others in rock-blues

[dmg]

In saying that, they are completely different performers and one could say that Mark changes his shows with improvisation during his solos in the same songs night after night. 

well not so much, but indeed much more than during the LOG tour for example, when Hal Lindes said "Mark played his lyrics solos, exactly the same way, night after night"
and if you're listen to sveral gigs from LOG tour, you won't hear too much difference.

He uses improvisation a little more now, but it's not an improvisation way like you could hear from guitarists like many others in rock-blues

Hmm..he always ends up going in the same direction but the bits in-between are always interesting!

[sweetsurrender]

Interesting discussion. TWM has a point saying that it is always best for the show when artists do what they feel is right for the moment; however, it probably depends on how you look at the show itself. For example, Mark himself likes to refer to the show as a theatrical performance where there is only little room for improvisation and all the actors know their roles really well. To confirm this approach he rarely changes setlists and uses the same jokes each night, giving an impression of the well rehearsed stage play. This may be boring for get-a-lifers like us, but is fair for the average member of average audience coming to see one of the gigs of a tour. Now if you think about it this way, adding a surprise element on some nights i.e. MK joining BD (which by the way is a HUGE bonus for fans of both artists) is like adding another act to the play or another chapter to a book. Some audiences get to see / read it, some don't. That doesn't sound very fair not to say professional. I understand when concerts within the same tour change slightly, how they evolve in details but Mark joining Bob is a major change and a big highlight of the night, and it shouldn't be a privilege for only some audiences to witness it. Howgh.

[/u]

That's exactly how I felt and kooba you enunciated it very well with the theatrical analogy.  I have no gripes about how Mark , BD or any artists choose or improvise the songs they want  to play to fit the mood of that one particualr night. As a matter of fact, I very much welcome it.  This discussion to me seemed totally different. It shouldn't alll be about how BD wants it to be. There should be some levels of professionaI expectation for the audiences. It  shouldn't  be done in a haphazard manner. BD wants MK to join the stage whenever he feels like it.  Mark joins Bob on  stage is a highlight of the show. I had people asked that question while standing in line 4 night, if the two of them would paly together.  Some said they got misled from the poster. Thinking they would play together. Folks shelled out their hard enarned money and time to go to the concerts, it would be nice to get the same opportunity to expereince the moment MK and BD share the stage.

I wished that PC and MK would step up and said " Bob, we know this is your tour, but Mark being a legend of his own , we'd like how the setup to be. "either he shares the stage with you from the beginning of the tour, or not at all"

I'm certain there's plenty of mutual economic benefits for both managements to set up a tour like this.  But I sincerely hope that this would not evolve into anything more in future tours.  I don't fancy the idea of seeing MK half the show. It didn't feel quite right afterwards. Then again I asked myself, is it better than not to see him at all? And the answer is " Yes" and "NO"

[vgonis]

So you pay to see two headliners and you see them. Nobody promised more than that. The Dylan invitations to MK can be regarded as a bonus to the lucky ones. Nothing more. And this is the definition of luck. If it was pre decided, it wouldn't worth as much, because it is the surprise element that does the trick. That said, I would, too, feel mad if I was the (unlucky?) viewer of the first gigs, with no BD and MK collaborations. But if you think carefully, after all, with all these songs played together, night after night,  the real unique shows are going to be the first ones, that each man played only in his set. Now doesn't that make you feel better? 

[dmg]

So you pay to see two headliners and you see them. Nobody promised more than that.

Nobody promised more than that, but everybody expected more than that.

[jbaent]

So you pay to see two headliners and you see them. Nobody promised more than that.

Nobody promised more than that, but everybody expected more than that.

Since they spent the last part of their 2011 European Fall Tour playing between three and five songs together per night and apparently enjoying so much that Krusty invited to sing a duet with him at the last show, I

[sweetsurrender]

So you pay to see two headliners and you see them. Nobody promised more than that.

Nobody promised more than that, but everybody expected more than that.

Since they spent the last part of their 2011 European Fall Tour playing between three and five songs together per night and apparently enjoying so much that Krusty invited to sing a duet with him at the last show, I