Vinyl

[Fletch]

Ive been raving for the last few days about the glory of old records and good turntables....

Oh yeah, it's not 'convenient' but listening to the first LP again like this is Amazing!!!

I wonder now, if anyone who has a phono set-up at home, bothers with the CDs? If I'm home I can't imagine hearing the record any warmer/sweeter, more vibe than what im hearing right now!

To anyone thinking of investing in a turntable in order to actually take advantage of the vinyl, there are great bargains to be had in used hi-fi equipment on eBay.  Technics were always pretty good for consumers and deejays alike.  Here's a nice one with only 6 hours to go.  Wonder how much it goes for...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TECHNICS-SL-5200-DIRECT-DRIVE-TURNTABLE-/280924577965?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Turntables&hash=item416868e0ad#ht_532wt_1128

Yeah go second hand, the stuff built in the 70s was built to last and not always designed to  shareholder profit. Obviously there are new high quality turntables, BUT, to build them these days does cost a fortune and so you pay for it!
A good local store, will give a short warranty and also can repair stuff - my CEC turntable from 19?? Cost $300AU - it seriously amazed me last night.
The thing about this process is there are NO ones and zeros between the recording and what you hear (unless you amplify digitally - don't do this) on OLD records. We also played the reissue Wish You Were Hear LP last night, and it was nice, but didn't have the same lo-fidelity warmth and vibe I'm talking about.
The same lack of contrast may happen with Privateering, because it will be mastered from digital tape that the CD is?? I don't know??
How is the Get Lucky LP?

I went back to my store and picked up OLD pressings of all the DS records up to BIA.

Brothers In Arms in particular, is a completely different experience. Of courses it's well known the track lengths are different, but also the mix and mastering are very interesting.
MFN has an emotional impact superior to any cd version. The keyboards rise as usual, but the drums kick in at a level way higher - it's how I grew up listening to it, and I distinctly remember years later when I first got the CD thinking, " this can't be right, where has all the energy gone?"
I've since gotten used to the cd and its no longer as jarringly inferior, but if you try the LP, you get back to the feeling of being punched in the stomach by a snare/Tom straight away.
And that's not even talking about the lo-fi warmth and compression from an old record - this is also an LP mastered from digital tape (I think).

The differences can be amazing, when the steel guitar is strummed at the start of Wild West End, I've never heard it sound so vibrant....

If you love your Knop, and have a little spare cash - not much - you will be amazed.

I'm not expecting such contrast with the Privateering LP, because it will most likely be mixed and mastered from the same digital tape as recorded on - but maybe not? The technology is certainly there in Grove to record simultaneously on analogue tape, or even, bounce digital onto analogue and master from that....
Any experts or opinions on old or new records?

[dmg]

Personally I don't have many LP's and my turntable therefore sits wrapped up in my wardrobe most of the time.  I do understand what you mean though about the different sound compared to CD.  I myself have always been a fan of the DAT format and intend to get myself a full size deck shortly to accompany my portable.  The sound from such a small Walkman is astonishing.

Here's a site I can't tear myself away from right now:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/index.php

[Fletch]

^ Pre Amps and Intergrated Amps  there's another thread discussion! Lol.

Tape compression and error imprints are a delight also. I have a cassette copy of a Beach Boys LP which due to age imprint, now has a PRE echo of every song! So I can just hear the start of Surfin USA a second before the songs starts, it's amazing, and nice - its not a bad thing!

[Fletch]

P.s. anyone interested, don't get bogged down in tech talk, you only need..

Old or 'good new' turntable that works.
Intergrated amp, with phono.
The best speakers you can afford for your room - very subjective, don't let massive Internet discussions stop our ears deciding. But this is where you sould spend the most money.

And... Old LPs, cheap and available!

[dmg]

Although buying secondhand may be a good idea for a bargain, I would advise against this in the case of speakers.  

In fact, in most other equipment since the early 90s when the bottom fell out of the market for high end separates then most that are made now are either extraordinarily expensive or very poor quality.

Also ensure your amp has a phono stage to boost the power of the turntable or you will have to turn up the volume!

Take your set up (amp and turntable) to a hi-fi shop and ask them to connect it to various speakers to test out in a room for you so you can choose what's best for your set-up.  Oh, and remember to take with you a decent LP!

[Fletch]

^dmg advice very good!

I found my hifi store wonderful to deal with - they are often dedicated people who are a dying breed (I'm not talking about Bose TV surround systems here) - Look around for a shop that has LPs in the window, and stocks second hand turntables, amps AND (as dmg says) good new stuff, like speakers.

This may be a lonely thread dmg, I'm surprised, lol! I guess there's a lot of Privateering news at the moment!

[dmg]

Yes, the people who work in hi-fi shops are usually enthusiasts themselves and not just working for a faceless corporation and as such are only too willing to help and are very knowledgable.

How cool is this record player:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/technics-SL-V5.html

I want one.  No, I need one!

[Fletch]

Amazing - I wish I had a photo of my dads old system, VU meters, faders etc. etc. and it wasn't even high end stuff!

You should find one of those dmg!!!

[dmg]

Amazing - I wish I had a photo of my dads old system, VU meters, faders etc. etc. and it wasn't even high end stuff!

You should find one of those dmg!!!

My power amp has the meters - backlit too!  Dim the lights at night and turn it up loud and it's very cool.

[vgonis]

I must confess that I belong in the special category called (lovingly, even if it sounds bad) "vinyl junkies". Even though I started buying music when the CD was just introduced to the public (my first original cassette tape was Europe's The final countdown in 1987), I really loved vinyl and never stopped buying the vinyl edition of new releases. I only bought CDs when I couldn't get the vinyl edition, or if it was too expensive, or if there wasn't one!
It is true that each of the analogue/digital media has its merits, pros and cons, but since the vinyl has much less compression than the CD, you really have more depth, even if the source is a digital recording. (After all the CD can contain less frequencies than vinyl. Even SACD has less. But Fletch you should try the 25th anniversary BiA edition, it sounds much better. Still I prefer the LP sound very much, for the reasons you state and we have talked about in another thread some time ago)   Of course, usually other problems arise from such a transfer, usually the lack of a specialist to take care of the special production -transfer needed for a vinyl edition. (They have to inflate the sound somehow)  The second problem is that if you get such a specialist, the end vinyl product is extremely expensive (see for example the vinyl edition of "All the roadrunning"). 
I must have changed 2 turntables, but I really can't say much about their quality, since I don't listen to music in the traditional way. (sitting in the luxury of my sofa with the speakers in the exact perfect position) My first was a belt driven Technics, the second a belt driven Sanyo and now I use a Technics MK2 (SL1200MK2).
http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/SL-1200MK2?t=specs&support#tabs
It is a heavy duty machine, but since my collection of vinyl consists in 2/3 of used records, I prefer the not-so-detailed sound that it produces to avoid the extra noise that a highly sensitive system would reveal. (dust and crackling) But it is not really bad, since my speakers are equally medium Philips and my  amp a Denon PMA-880R, good but old. What I lose from the speakers, I gain from a set of good headphones (which have become obligatory after the birth of my daughters).

Back to the topic, I believe that the best reason to start buying vinyl again, is because you can find many great recordings of the past, easily, cheaply and pretty much in the way they were meant to be heard. The first and sometimes only transfers to the digital medium were bad.   But really, it is more a question of habit, and I do understand the people that prefer CDs. MP3s on the other hand is way beyond me. The lossy sound is a tragedy. You lose so much information, so much beauty, that if you are given a chance to listen to the recording from a CD or vinyl and through a decent sound system, you can exclaim:" Now I hear"   

[Fletch]

I had no idea the 25th BIA was anything more than an even more polished version of the original CD. It's usually about $10 in the shops, I'll check it out, thanks.

During the week - we have obtained two original Queen 70s LPs (astonishingly good, because this band always insisted the engineering was as complex as their studio performances).
And an original Led Zep IV - hearing R.Plants  voice with old vinyl warmth, that all CD remasters clean up!
All the original DS LPs are compellingly vibrant to listen to, the guitars, Marks Voice, the Bass.. its all different, and you don't need to be an audio nerd to hear.
I left the 12" with Millionaire Blues in the shop! Maybe next week...

[vgonis]

25th BiA is remastered and deals with some of the problems you mention. I think it has won a grammy for this re issue, even though it means jack sit to me.

I have all of Queen's albums and yes they sound much better than the CD reissues(even the latest ones).

And to hear the thundering drum intro of "When the levee breaks" is just magnificent on vinyl.

Here in Greece they mass import records from all over the world and some stores have the system of lowering the prices of the records that don't sell every 3 weeks. It is a bit of a desire game/gamble, so you might end up getting all sorts of peculiar BiA editions for 2 Euros. (Manifactured by RCA or MCA etc. -The demand must have been astounding, and that is why they allowed these companies to print. They are not very different, usually you can only tell by a small print in the rear sleeve)
I am still looking for the Polish BiA vinyl edition, which contains the full length songs (as in the CD). But probably was not commercially issued(just promo) due to technical issues. The problem that the vinyl edition of OES has. Too much information (over 60 minutes) on two sides of vinyl, means smaller grooves and easier to be damaged and reveal the flaws. 12'' singles on the other hand or Half speed masters or 45 double vinyls are the ones to go for, sound quality wise. 

[twm]

In the States, a few years back, I seem to recall that there were adverts for a system that played vinyl discs using a laser beam! Or something similar. The adverts used to apear in a magazine called ICE which was run by a friend of mine and was a sort-of record releases' tip sheet.  In the end, he got an offer from BILLBOARD that he couldn't refuse. They bought his subscribers' list and ICE melted away. So I don't see those adverts any more  and have no idea if the system is still available.

[vgonis]

twm, I seem to recall this technology, 4-5 years back, but if my memory serves me well, it was still in infantile stage, more like experimenting. I was thrilled, because it promised reading worn out records and with special software to eliminate any noise that might come from dust or scratches. I would certainly consider obtaining one if the price was right.