A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: qjamesfloyd on April 19, 2023, 09:05:42 AM
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It is clear that Sultans of Swing brought Dire Straits and Mark Knopfler into huge focus, to many people it is the number 1 song that is brought to mind when they and he are talked about, the song has had a huge influence in the guitar world, and the songwriting world too, but I was wondering, would it have been harder for Dire Straits to have got noticed without that song ever having been written? would Charlie Gillet still have been so excited by the band? I am sure Mark's talent would have found a way anyway, but, I just wonder what the implication of no Sultans of Swing would have been?
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Yeah, I don't think they ever would have made it without Sultans.
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To be honest, I still don't get the hype about Sultans. It's a damn long (6 minutes almost!), repetitive, "boring" song. When I tell people, regular folks, that I have a channel with Mark Knopfler & Dire Straits music, they sometimes Google it right on the spot and take a listen, and when they hear Sultans it's clear to me they don't get it at all, and Sultans is clearly not the type of music they would want to hear, they just fall asleep listening to it. It has cool guitar licks in it... Aaaand?
Still, I think without Sultans, Dire Straits would be huge. Songs like Brothers In Arms, Money For Nothing, and Your Latest Trick alone are enough to launch any band into the stratosphere. MK&DS are not a one-hit wonder, luckily. But when you compare the popularity of Sultans against all other songs, you can think they are indeed a one-hit-wonder. I remember the poll on the MKNews website with favourite songs, and Sultans got more than half of all the votes.
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To be honest, I still don't get the hype about Sultans. It's a damn long (6 minutes almost!), repetitive, "boring" song. When I tell people, regular folks, that I have a channel with Mark Knopfler & Dire Straits music, they sometimes Google it right on the spot and take a listen, and when they hear Sultans it's clear to me they don't get it at all, and Sultans is clearly not the type of music they would want to hear, they just fall asleep listening to it. It has cool guitar licks in it... Aaaand?
Still, I think without Sultans, Dire Straits would be huge. Songs like Brothers In Arms, Money For Nothing, and Your Latest Trick alone are enough to launch any band into the stratosphere. MK&DS are not a one-hit wonder, luckily. But when you compare the popularity of Sultans against all other songs, you can think they are indeed a one-hit-wonder. I remember the poll on the MKNews website with favourite songs, and Sultans got more than half of all the votes.
With that said, of course, Sultans made millions of young fellas pick up a guitar for the first time, it has a distinctive 70s vibe to it and gets used in movies with this time period (like Argo), but if you look past all that guitar-hero, nostalgic, twiddly-bits stuff, what you get? A song with A LOT of words, NO melody, and repetitive structure based on Flamenco cliches. What really saved the song was Mark's unique guitar playing, and Pick's outstanding drumming.
I don't think that any other band would make it, should they write Sultans first. It's a uniquely Mark Knopfler creation.
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monday night, after the jam where I go playing guitar (like every monday), the pub played a random spotify playlist and there was a lot of good music (based on bartenders tastes I think) : Stones, Lynyrd skynyrd... and... Down to the waterline.
of course my opinion is biased as a fan, but the song fits so well in the playlist with classic rock tunes. stunning atmosphere in the intro, fluid guitar playing, JJCale-ish vocals, perfcet melody during the solo, nostalgic lyrics, catchy rhythm... of course you all know that, but I bet Dire Straits would have been noticed with others songs than Sultans
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When thinking of MK´s devotion and how his determination towards making records has been over the years, I would absolutely say Yes, sooner or later that man would have made a breakthrough. SOS is superb but he has made a ton of other superb songs has he not. Even super big hits for the "general public". There you have the answer.
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Still, I think without Sultans, Dire Straits would be huge. Songs like Brothers In Arms, Money For Nothing, and Your Latest Trick alone are enough to launch any band into the stratosphere.
But these songs probably never would have been written or released if Sultans hadn't been a hit.
Lets just imagine a world without Sultans. Does the band get signed? Probably not, but lets pretend it does. What's the hit single from the first album? There isn't another obvious contender.
So lets say the record company are patient and give the band a second chance with another album. What's the hit single? Is Lady Writer going to get played on the radio and become a hit if DS are not already known? No.
So lets pretend the record company is REALLY patient and gives them a third album (unlikely). Jimmy Iovine wouldn't want to produce an unknown band most likely, also they probably wouldn't get Roy Bittan. You also have the butterfly effect that MK likely hasn't met Holly Beth Vincent, BUT taking all that into account, R&J might have been a hit at that point. However, it's setting DS up (no pun intended) as a power ballad group like REO Speedwagon or something rather than a guitar hero thing.
So, in my opinion, no Sultans, no DS, at least not anything like DS as we know it.
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Still, I think without Sultans, Dire Straits would be huge. Songs like Brothers In Arms, Money For Nothing, and Your Latest Trick alone are enough to launch any band into the stratosphere.
But these songs probably never would have been written or released if Sultans hadn't been a hit.
Lets just imagine a world without Sultans. Does the band get signed? Probably not, but lets pretend it does. What's the hit single from the first album? There isn't another obvious contender.
So lets say the record company are patient and give the band a second chance with another album. What's the hit single? Is Lady Writer going to get played on the radio and become a hit if DS are not already known? No.
So lets pretend the record company is REALLY patient and gives them a third album (unlikely). Jimmy Iovine wouldn't want to produce an unknown band most likely, also they probably wouldn't get Roy Bittan. You also have the butterfly effect that MK likely hasn't met Holly Beth Vincent, BUT taking all that into account, R&J might have been a hit at that point. However, it's setting DS up (no pun intended) as a power ballad group like REO Speedwagon or something rather than a guitar hero thing.
So, in my opinion, no Sultans, no DS, at least not anything like DS as we know it.
Yes, precisely, not DS as we know it. Mark would eventually write a hit single that would launch him to the stars, no doubt about it, but that would be a more humble, less famous DS. I sometimes think that if you leave Sultans, then you'll get the true picture of Mark's legacy. A niche, unique music that was never intended to be as popular as your typical band that everybody knows. Not the type of band to shoot a biopic movie about. No Eagles, no Queen or ABBA.
Sultans turn everything upside down when you can't really tell whether a man is a fan of this song alone, or Mark's guitar playing in general. When everybody, including me, heard this riff somewhere but don't know who it was. My brother thought "Money For Nothing" was the intro theme for "Beavis & Butthead". I think Sultans single-handedly gets Mark to all the lists of best guitar players.
So yes, Mark got really lucky with Sultans, being exactly at the right place, the right time.
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What's the hit single from the first album? There isn't another obvious contender.
I think Waterline could have been the one
fast driven song, short length, lick ans melody you can remember easily, leitmotiv at the end of each verse, and we can imagine a radio edit that starts after the intro, directly into the song.
I think it could have been a "hit", not mega-hit for sure, but enough to make the band "known"
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What's the hit single from the first album? There isn't another obvious contender.
I think Waterline could have been the one
fast driven song, short length, lick ans melody you can remember easily, leitmotiv at the end of each verse, and we can imagine a radio edit that starts after the intro, directly into the song.
I think it could have been a "hit", not mega-hit for sure, but enough to make the band "known"
and it was included in the MFN comp, assuming it was among the band's "best of" tunes so to say
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No Sultans no success in my opinion.
SOS was one of those rare songs that came out at a certain moment in history but are timeless and impossible to place. Think about it, 1978, disco, glam, and the hight of punk. Along comes this melodic song played with real musicianship with a ridiculously pure guitar tone, 'Sung', no almost spoken, and about what? A jazz band of all things. Its an outlier, and much as I love the first album nothing comes remotely close to it on these terms.....
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I've got to agree with 2many and Dusty. There are loads of bands out there looking to make it big but the planets have to align and they did when Sultans was sent to Charlie. It was the right song at the right moment. No Sultans no party!
Waterline (preferably with the intro cut) could've been an interesting alternative, but we'll never know.
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The whole discussion is hypothetical. My question: if Lady Writer was on the first album would it be the same?
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The whole discussion is hypothetical.
Yes. Yes it is.
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Not convinced Waterline would have launched the band. It took long enough for Sultans to become a hit!
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Not convinced Waterline would have launched the band. It took long enough for Sultans to become a hit!
We can argue about the merits of each song. Maybe DTTW is a better song, in fact I'd go as far as to say that I probably prefer it. Its far more concise and tells a more relatable story, its a blistering piece of music, but ask yourself this. Why neatly 50 years on does one track still feature disproportionately on AOR radio VS the other? Sultans, as I initially said, has that something that lifts it into musical history stratosphere....
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Yes, this all backs up my initial thoughts, Sultans of Swing had to happen for Dire Straits and Mark Knopfler's career to get started, would Mark have had success with Bob Dylan without it too?
So, let's assume the song didn't exist, and they needed another song for the 1st album, what would you choose? I would choose What's The Matter Baby, which might have been a great lead single too.
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would Mark have had success with Bob Dylan without it too?
No
So, let's assume the song didn't exist, and they needed another song for the 1st album, what would you choose? I would choose What's The Matter Baby, which might have been a great lead single too.
They didn't even think this song was good to enough to record, so unlikely.
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I think Sacred Loving would have been the hit and David would have been the singer from that day on
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I think Sacred Loving would have been the hit and David would have been the singer from that day on
In a parallel universe, he would go on to write Romeo & Juliet based on his failed romance with Dolly Ruth Vincent. Or Public Investigations.
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I think Sacred Loving would have been the hit and David would have been the singer from that day on
In a parallel universe, he would go on to write Romeo & Juliet based on his failed romance with Dolly Ruth Vincent. Or Public Investigations.
I guess you both are trying to be funny. Being trying the key word in the sentence.
I don't even get from where this joke comes from but, I'm not trying to understand it either.
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I think Sacred Loving would have been the hit and David would have been the singer from that day on
In a parallel universe, he would go on to write Romeo & Juliet based on his failed romance with Dolly Ruth Vincent. Or Public Investigations.
I guess you both are trying to be funny. Being trying the key word in the sentence.
I don't even get from where this joke comes from but, I'm not trying to understand it either.
Grumpy!
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I think Sacred Loving would have been the hit and David would have been the singer from that day on
In a parallel universe, he would go on to write Romeo & Juliet based on his failed romance with Dolly Ruth Vincent. Or Public Investigations.
I guess you both are trying to be funny. Being trying the key word in the sentence.
I don't even get from where this joke comes from but, I'm not trying to understand it either.
Man, what a party pooper.
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I think Sacred Loving would have been the hit and David would have been the singer from that day on
In a parallel universe, he would go on to write Romeo & Juliet based on his failed romance with Dolly Ruth Vincent. Or Public Investigations.
I guess you both are trying to be funny. Being trying the key word in the sentence.
I don't even get from where this joke comes from but, I'm not trying to understand it either.
Because you are the only one on here who has the rights to be funny? Come on man :hmm
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Sultans of Swing is a guitar masterpiece. It’s so full of nuances and dynamics that every now and then I notice something new even after hearing it I don’t know how many times over my entire life. There are so many innovative things Mark put into that song in terms of guitar playing that it would need a thesis to be explained.
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I think Sacred Loving would have been the hit and David would have been the singer from that day on
In a parallel universe, he would go on to write Romeo & Juliet based on his failed romance with Dolly Ruth Vincent. Or Public Investigations.
I guess you both are trying to be funny. Being trying the key word in the sentence.
I don't even get from where this joke comes from but, I'm not trying to understand it either.
Man, what a party pooper.
In Spain we say water parties
;D
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I think Sacred Loving would have been the hit and David would have been the singer from that day on
In a parallel universe, he would go on to write Romeo & Juliet based on his failed romance with Dolly Ruth Vincent. Or Public Investigations.
I guess you both are trying to be funny. Being trying the key word in the sentence.
I don't even get from where this joke comes from but, I'm not trying to understand it either.
Because you are the only one on here who has the rights to be funny? Come on man :hmm
I wasn't funny neither.
Those jokes work with Alan Clark. Poor David never claimed anything, so there is no fun in that joke.
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It wasnt ment to be negative against David at all. I like Sacred Loving and DK :)
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I believe that the absence of Sultans Of Swing would change the result of the equation, without a doubt, this song is the key to the final result of the immediate success with the band's debut, it is a song that contains elements that brought back the flavor of the old school, a song that talks about musicians and music, styles, environments where bands are playing, terms used by musicians... Anyway, it's a metalinguistic song, made by musicians and for musicians, it brings with it elements in the guitars and drums that are so finely tuned and elegant, and as a bonus, it's sung in Bob Dylan narrative style, this was something that would fill a space and meet a demand that no doubt weren't too into punk, new wave or disco, proving that old school it still made sense in 1977, I don't see The Police (their contemporary) bringing elements with roots in Country, Blues, Rock and Roll, the American sound like Dire Straits had, many people thought it was an American band , because their songs vibrated in such a way. Sultans Of Swing is a daring song in many ways, it took a while to happen in its homeland, but it was an immediate success in Germany, Holland, Australia and the United States, but, one thing that calls my attention is that Dire Straits is a band of musicians that fundamentally attracts musicians, most musicians I know will have something in the Dire Straits catalog that caught their attention, whether it's Mark's guitar guitar, Your Latest Trick's saxophone, or the synthesizers on Walk Of Life and why not quote the Sultans Of Swing drums studio or Alchemy? The songs have so many subtleties that it's always a study when we want to play these songs in character.
But, looking at this video, I really believe that they would get the world's attention with their songs, a song like Down to The Waterline (present in the 1977 demo) has so many interesting things, lyrics and melody attractive, atmospheric, guitar sound, rhythmic and solo are very elegant, in short, it contains signatures in its guitar that will appear in many other songs such as Lady Writer, Tunnel Of Love, Telegraph Road, Calling Elvis.
That's my point of view.
https://youtu.be/h_IGSgvNS8s (https://youtu.be/h_IGSgvNS8s)
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And Dire Straits is a band that contains a guitar hero, Mark Knopfler is not a guitar hero just because of Sultans Of Swing, it's for the body of work, what to say about the solo of songs like Tunnel Of Love, Telegraph Road, Brothers in Arms, and why not quote solos from Lady Writer, Single Handed Sailor, Down to The Waterline.
On The Night is a Dire Straits release that does not contain Sultans Of Swing and it was successful, there is also no Tunnel Of Love, Telegraph Road, hehehe, ;D it's ironic, but it sold millions and is much loved by many fans of the band.
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in this video, Mark changed a lyric line in the last verse, talking about TV ? (can't understand exactly)
and John wore Mark's future stage clothes :lol ;D
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And John on the right side :)
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in this video, Mark changed a lyric line in the last verse, talking about TV ? (can't understand exactly)
and John wore Mark's future stage clothes :lol ;D
Go on the TV the Tony Wilson show, or something close to that....
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He sings, "Granada Tv, Tony Wilso show" :-Xn, merchandising from the show they were playing on. ;D
in this video, Mark changed a lyric line in the last verse, talking about TV ? (can't understand exactly)
and John wore Mark's future stage clothes :lol ;D