SPOILERS: John Illsley will publish a book about Dire Straits

[quizzaciously]

Being the easygoing guy John is he probably apologized to Alan because he didn’t want to get himself into that kind of discussion - a polite ‘woteva’… Mark said it was his idea and John said it was Mark’s idea. The story has been told a thousand times over the years and only now, 36 years later, Alan has the urge to claim his creation? I stopped taking him seriously when I read on his website he was one of the most influential musicians of the 1980’s or something along those lines. I mean, how egocentric is that.

It's really strange to me somebody is really trying to argue in this environment. I mean MK's environment. I'm sure if that was that epic of a suggestion like Alan think it is, everybody would remember it like this. Nobody says the cover for Brothers In Arms album was Mark's idea or something. Or even the name Dire Straits wasn't Mark's idea either. Where it's known for sure nobody makes such mistakes, and here goes AC and makes people like John Illsley apologize, for what probably was a spontaneous idea and could be born at any time at that moment. I'd say, Alan, next time you will work with Dire Straits on a big hit, make sure your suggestions will be universally acclaimed.

[Pottel]

Alan should sue for co authorship, like Bobby Valentino did to The Bluebells.

MK stopped hiring Bobby after that, but Alan doesn’t have anything to lose.

care to detail that story a bit more? never heard it

[jbaent]

Alan should sue for co authorship, like Bobby Valentino did to The Bluebells.

MK stopped hiring Bobby after that, but Alan doesn’t have anything to lose.

care to detail that story a bit more? never heard it

Bobby Valentino played a violin fill that was what made one of the Bluebells songs (I think it was a cover) famous, and he asked for his credit as he thought his violin fill was a hook for the song.

I think he won.

And MK suddenly stopped calling him. Maybe it's a coincidence. But, who knows?

https://swanturton.com/bobby-valentino-wins-share-of-copyright-in-the-bluebells-young-at-heart-beckingham-v-hodgens/

[quizzaciously]

Alan should sue for co authorship, like Bobby Valentino did to The Bluebells.

MK stopped hiring Bobby after that, but Alan doesn’t have anything to lose.

care to detail that story a bit more? never heard it

Bobby Valentino played a violin fill that was what made one of the Bluebells songs (I think it was a cover) famous, and he asked for his credit as he thought his violin fill was a hook for the song.

I think he won.

And MK suddenly stopped calling him. Maybe it's a coincidence. But, who knows?

https://swanturton.com/bobby-valentino-wins-share-of-copyright-in-the-bluebells-young-at-heart-beckingham-v-hodgens/

I think it's a coincidence and Mark is known to call whole bunch of musicians anyway. And I'm on Bobby's side here actually! It's like if Aan would compose Money For Nothing riff and not just suggested idea of a melody in the intro. Money For Nothing would go on to be a hit anyway, with intro or without it. Same with some other songs, by the way...

[quizzaciously]

Can't talk about lawsuits and not mention Clare Torry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clare_Torry#Lawsuit

[jbaent]

That's why i said in an earlier post that, why would Alan sue MK just for a contribution? He never claimed to had written the intro (I think Guy said once he more or less did, the synth part), but said he had the idea if doing an intro. I'm sure he has contributed that way to many others DS songs, actually, I'm sure Alchemy is full of his contributions, but that doesn't means they are their compositions.

[quizzaciously]

That's why i said in an earlier post that, why would Alan sue MK just for a contribution? He never claimed to had written the intro (I think Guy said once he more or less did, the synth part), but said he had the idea if doing an intro. I'm sure he has contributed that way to many others DS songs, actually, I'm sure Alchemy is full of his contributions, but that doesn't means they are their compositions.

Alan doesn't want to sue anyone, I think it was just random speculation here, he just wanted to correct John about facts in his book. The lawsuit part is a part of the discussion here and of course a pretty far-fetched idea. Nobody would sue somebody over that, that's just a regular contribution and part of a session musician's job, nothing that would build up to a songwriting credit. Heck, even Sting's songwriting credit was questionable, let alone Alan's contributions! I thought Money For Nothing would be credited as "Tunnel Of Love" with Oscar Hammerstein II credit for the intro. But not for the whole song!

[jbaent]

Just finished reading John's book and I enjoyed it immensely.   

I'm glad you like it!

I think it's very nice to have an inside view from the history of the band, and it's from MK right hand, so it is almost from MK himself, lol

I found very nice the way he talks about David, from the period they were flat mates before MK arrived, and also during the firsts years of the band, he truly liked him and understood all he was going throught.

I don't know if Hal would be very happy with the way John describes how he left the band, it makes him look quite vain, in my opinion.

I always find funny when in this books, the writers try to talk about the "girls" on tour, specially about infidelities, Phil also talked the same way in his own book about that issue, something like "I've been a Saint almost all the time", LOL

[jbaent]

And for me it will be a christmas present, so I'll have to wait a little longer. I can't wait. 

Seems a few of us are getting Knopfler related goodies for Christmas!!

Great thing for me is that the book is going to be in Spanish in the end, so I would end having the book twice, lol

The English version is on its way in the mess of international shipments from the UK to Spain, hope it arrive soon! I also have the pdf version but reading on a screen is not something I like!

[dustyvalentino]

That's why i said in an earlier post that, why would Alan sue MK just for a contribution? He never claimed to had written the intro (I think Guy said once he more or less did, the synth part), but said he had the idea if doing an intro. I'm sure he has contributed that way to many others DS songs, actually, I'm sure Alchemy is full of his contributions, but that doesn't means they are their compositions.

Alan doesn't want to sue anyone, I think it was just random speculation here, he just wanted to correct John about facts in his book. The lawsuit part is a part of the discussion here and of course a pretty far-fetched idea. Nobody would sue somebody over that, that's just a regular contribution and part of a session musician's job, nothing that would build up to a songwriting credit. Heck, even Sting's songwriting credit was questionable, let alone Alan's contributions! I thought Money For Nothing would be credited as "Tunnel Of Love" with Oscar Hammerstein II credit for the intro. But not for the whole song!

I think it's an interesting discussion, where does the sideman's contribution end and composition begin?

Bobby was able to argue successfully in a court of law that his contribution amounted to composition.

[Robson]

"I also have the pdf version...

There is an official pdf version?

[jbaent]

That's why i said in an earlier post that, why would Alan sue MK just for a contribution? He never claimed to had written the intro (I think Guy said once he more or less did, the synth part), but said he had the idea if doing an intro. I'm sure he has contributed that way to many others DS songs, actually, I'm sure Alchemy is full of his contributions, but that doesn't means they are their compositions.

Alan doesn't want to sue anyone, I think it was just random speculation here, he just wanted to correct John about facts in his book. The lawsuit part is a part of the discussion here and of course a pretty far-fetched idea. Nobody would sue somebody over that, that's just a regular contribution and part of a session musician's job, nothing that would build up to a songwriting credit. Heck, even Sting's songwriting credit was questionable, let alone Alan's contributions! I thought Money For Nothing would be credited as "Tunnel Of Love" with Oscar Hammerstein II credit for the intro. But not for the whole song!

I think it's an interesting discussion, where does the sideman's contribution end and composition begin?

Bobby was able to argue successfully in a court of law that his contribution amounted to composition.

Phil Palmer talks about this in his book, that there is a grey line between contribution and composition, and from the sideman's part, is a big risk. He says that when you are recording and your part is really more a composition of you own than a contribution, you have two choices:

1/ Ask inmediatly for the credit, if you let it go for a day or two, is lost battle

2/ Don't say a thing, because if you ask for a credit and you deserve it, you might get it, but that artist won't call you anymore, and probably would spread the word and you would be in danger of no loosing jobs

He says in the book he always opted for not saying a thing, and keep getting jobs. He mentions some sessions where he wrote the main riffs for the songs, or creating a great and catchy solo that made the song famous or reconizable, but he chose to be proud of his work, and keep working, than have a credit and not work anymore.

Looks tricky, and Bobby Valentino took a big risk with this. Other artists that might hire him maybe would choose another one just in case and not take the risk he might ask for credit.

[jbaent]

"I also have the pdf version...

There is an official pdf version?

The electronical book I mean. Its all pdf to me, LOL

[quizzaciously]

Phil Palmer talks about this in his book, that there is a grey line between contribution and composition, and from the sideman's part, is a big risk. He says that when you are recording and your part is really more a composition of you own than a contribution, you have two choices:

1/ Ask inmediatly for the credit, if you let it go for a day or two, is lost battle

2/ Don't say a thing, because if you ask for a credit and you deserve it, you might get it, but that artist won't call you anymore, and probably would spread the word and you would be in danger of no loosing jobs

He says in the book he always opted for not saying a thing, and keep getting jobs. He mentions some sessions where he wrote the main riffs for the songs, or creating a great and catchy solo that made the song famous or reconizable, but he chose to be proud of his work, and keep working, than have a credit and not work anymore.

Looks tricky, and Bobby Valentino took a big risk with this. Other artists that might hire him maybe would choose another one just in case and not take the risk he might ask for credit.

It's a very interesting discussion! History shows that songwriting credits are a complete mess sometimes and an ever-changing thing. I always found it too confusing with Lennon/McCartney vs. McCartney/Lennon thing, they had songs clearly written by one, credited to both, etc., I don't think that Mike Love deserved some of the writing credits for The Beach Boys songs and so on. I don't think that coming up with a couple of words to a finished song or an instrumental line is enough to earn credit.

I think if you compose an integral part of the song, or the main riff, or all the lyrics, then it deserves credit. But for a lot of stuff, I don't know... Would "Rüdiger" be the same without an acoustic guitar intro? I don't think so, but the song would be amazing even without it. Can the idea change the song's feel completely? Sure, but that would not change the song. Allegedly, Ed Bicknell suggested the unique rhythm drums part for "Your Latest Trick", which arguably made the whole song so iconic. But should he earn writing credit for that? I don't think so...

A lot of times you have a direct influence on the songs, like Ringo Starr coining the term "a hard day's night" or Paul McCartney's driver saying "eight days a week" that would result in a song. But this idea on its own would certainly not write the song, it's just an idea floating in the air. The idea is nothing without a result.

How does it translate to Alan’s situation? I think without MK, he won’t be on Montserrat recording an album and without Mark writing the song Money For Nothing, he won’t be suggesting to put Sting’s melody in it. I think Mark did the most work there and any idea would be nothing compared to his contributions. Like, it’s not even comparable. Who knows, maybe he would eventually come up with an even better solution. Like the iconic Brothers In Arms intro lick!

I think it's a generally stupid idea to go fishing for credits if you're a session musician. If the artist you work with is not dumb, I don’t think he would argue about giving you the credit. Most of the time it’s just not worth it! And a session musician may come across as a selfish, greedy a-hole and hence get fewer job later on. If that’s polite and arguments are strong, it's not a problem. In Bobby’s case, arguments were strong, but only in court! Just don’t leave this decision for a court is what I'd say.

[jbaent]

I'm fan of Toto and I always liked the way they handle the credits. Any song in which any of the members had an input, there was a credit. Jeff Porcaro, the drummer, has a lot of credits in Toto's songs!

Also Genesis and Pink Floyd members shared credits in many songs.