A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: JF on April 23, 2020, 09:39:53 AM
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I know we already talked about that, but Hal posted this on FB :
"One of my favorite MK songs and nearly a Dire Straits’ song, which sadly didn't make it onto the LP along with at least another dozen or so stellar tunes originally recorded for the band’s 4th studio album, LOVE OVER GOLD.
The Dire Strait’s version was beautiful, but try as I might to persuade, MK wouldn’t have it included on the LP.
One fine morning with Tina Turner, and bandmates John Illsley, Terry Williams, Alan Clark and Mel Collins, we recorded Private Dancer and Steel Claw in London’s Wessex Studios. Tina nailed the vocal on her first take, and then delivered any equally magnificent second take as a back up in case any technical recording glitches."
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10222749589115198&set=a.2365995196162&type=3&theater
I wonder what are these "at least another dozen or so stellar tunes originally recorded" :o :o :o
of course we know Badges, Private dancer, and the way it always start, but it's only 3, and if you add the ones from the record it makes 8... not 12 !
I asked him if he remember more
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Very interesting!
Maybe some of those gems made it to Brothers in Arms, but as MK is rather a not-looking-back type of artist, I doubt it.
I hope there are at least 1 or 2 songs from that period waiting to see the light somewhere. The sad things is we won't hear about them before someone other than Mark takes the decisions and we all know what that means.
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From the comments:
Joop de Korte: Didn’t we do it live once or twice Hal ?
Hal Lindes: we certainly rehearsed it a good few times over at wood wharf. loved playing that tune. rehearsals were recorded on a 4 track portastudio if memory serves. hope you are keeping safe & well Joop. x H
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It would be strange to have Private Dancer on the Love Over Gold record, because it resembles the title track so much. Wise choice from Mark imo, also the song is hard to sing, so I really don't want to hear Mark's version :lol
I think Hal may be overwhelmed with emotions and you always exaggerate the past, especially good things, so he could remember it as dozen of tunes. In reality Telegraph Road alone is like 3 songs in one :lol :lol :lol
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Whether it's a dozen or not, it sounds like there could be several songs recorded and gathering dust in the vaults, and if he says they are stellar tunes, who are we to argue, could be more to add to the box set of unreleased tracks ;)
I really want to hear Mark's version of Private Dancer, Tina has said she loves Mark's version.
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I wonder how the version of Private Dance with Dire Straits would be, in addition to the other songs that could have made the album Love Over Gold. I remember a 1981 interview in Oslo, where MK mentioned that the next album would be a double.
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I bet the version was quite similar, as it was Dire Straits without MK who recorded it with Tina Turner...
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I really want to hear Mark's version of Private Dancer, Tina has said she loves Mark's version.
Whould love to hear Mark's version, too.
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I remember a 1981 interview in Oslo, where MK mentioned that the next album would be a double.
yes it's also mentionned in the Oldfield book. At the time Mark had enough stuff to make a double album
We know 3 songs that were left over : Badges..., private Dancer, and The way it always start who made up on Local Hero soundtrack
Maybe Twisting, Two young lovers and if I had you were intented to feature on the LOG album ?
and finally they decided to re-recorded them in the fall 82 , after Pick left...
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Oldfield writes: and now there were... twenty other songs.
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I remember a 1981 interview in Oslo, where MK mentioned that the next album would be a double.
yes it's also mentionned in the Oldfield book. At the time Mark had enough stuff to make a double album
We know 3 songs that were left over : Badges..., private Dancer, and The way it always start who made up on Local Hero soundtrack
Maybe Twisting, Two young lovers and if I had you were intented to feature on the LOG album ?
and finally they decided to re-recorded them in the fall 82 , after Pick left...
Thank god Mark went with "quality over quantity" approach, just like the title "love over gold" dictates :lol
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I bet the version was quite similar, as it was Dire Straits without MK who recorded it with Tina Turner...
Yes, but it would undoubtedly have a much better guitar solo with MK. That Jeff Beck thing is cringeworthy.
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I remember a 1981 interview in Oslo, where MK mentioned that the next album would be a double.
yes it's also mentionned in the Oldfield book. At the time Mark had enough stuff to make a double album
We know 3 songs that were left over : Badges..., private Dancer, and The way it always start who made up on Local Hero soundtrack
Maybe Twisting, Two young lovers and if I had you were intented to feature on the LOG album ?
and finally they decided to re-recorded them in the fall 82 , after Pick left...
Thank god Mark went with "quality over quantity" approach, just like the title "love over gold" dictates :lol
So you have heard the 20 other songs?
I reckon Hal's opinion is more valid on this subject.
Single albums sell/sold much better than double so in all likelihood it was solely commercial reasons why only 5 songs were on the album.
I would have preferred more songs as he was near his peak guitar wise.
Let's hope we get to hear some/all of them one day.
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I bet the version was quite similar, as it was Dire Straits without MK who recorded it with Tina Turner...
Yes, but it would undoubtedly have a much better guitar solo with MK. That Jeff Beck thing is cringeworthy.
Also with MK it would had been arranged slightly different but probably very similar, and the solo would had been better for sure.
So, the five songs released, the three on the ep, private dancer, the way it always starts and badges make 11 songs... Probably something more that ended in brothers, or years later on OES or MK records, or remained forgotten.
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I remember a 1981 interview in Oslo, where MK mentioned that the next album would be a double.
yes it's also mentionned in the Oldfield book. At the time Mark had enough stuff to make a double album
We know 3 songs that were left over : Badges..., private Dancer, and The way it always start who made up on Local Hero soundtrack
Maybe Twisting, Two young lovers and if I had you were intented to feature on the LOG album ?
and finally they decided to re-recorded them in the fall 82 , after Pick left...
In my memory the double album in the Oldfield book was Making Movies, not LOG.
Twisting is not a LOG session song as that was already featured in the 1980 's BBC Arena doc.
We have several examples of song written many years ago before being published by mark so unless for the ones we have a good testimonial about them, we can generally not say if it is a real new one or not.
I guess on that subject Mark is more or less always looking back on what is in stock.
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In my memory the double album in the Oldfield book was Making Movies, not LOG.
Twisting is not a LOG session song as that was already featured in the 1980 's BBC Arena doc.
We have several examples of song written many years ago before being published by mark so unless for the ones we have a good testimonial about them, we can generally not say if it is a real new one or not.
I guess on that subject Mark is more or less always looking back on what is in stock.
Yes, also Secondary Waltz dates way back, Rüdiger was unfinished until 1996, who knows what they played.
Anyway, my reasoning behind my words is because I think if that's unreleased, that's probably for a reason.
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I think I'll put my trust in a primary source of information from Hal who was actually in the band rather than any of us that there are a dozen or so songs that didn't make it.
Amuses me how anyone could think they know better
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I think I'll put my trust in a primary source of information from Hal who was actually in the band rather than any of us that there are a dozen or so songs that didn't make it.
Amuses me how anyone could think they know better
Know better what? I don't even know what you're talking about :lol From what I understand the premise is Hal posted that they've recorded "at least another dozen or so stellar tunes". We just try to guess them. What's "the primary source" and of which exact information?
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The bit about recordings of rehearsals is interesting. This is what Wikipedia says about a portastudio:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portastudio
If they used a later version then they could record four tracks at one which could be mixed later.
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I think I'll put my trust in a primary source of information from Hal who was actually in the band rather than any of us that there are a dozen or so songs that didn't make it.
Amuses me how anyone could think they know better
Know better what? I don't even know what you're talking about :lol From what I understand the premise is Hal posted that they've recorded "at least another dozen or so stellar tunes". We just try to guess them. What's "the primary source" and of which exact information?
This bit:
"I think Hal may be overwhelmed with emotions and you always exaggerate the past, especially good things, so he could remember it as dozen of tunes".
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I think I'll put my trust in a primary source of information from Hal who was actually in the band rather than any of us that there are a dozen or so songs that didn't make it.
Amuses me how anyone could think they know better
Know better what? I don't even know what you're talking about :lol From what I understand the premise is Hal posted that they've recorded "at least another dozen or so stellar tunes". We just try to guess them. What's "the primary source" and of which exact information?
This bit:
"I think Hal may be overwhelmed with emotions and you always exaggerate the past, especially good things, so he could remember it as dozen of tunes".
Anyway, he didn't say the exact number of tunes, so the whole discussion is surreal considering it was 38 years ago AND the number of songs is undefined even by "a primary source". I'm not a fan when people accuse me of "knowing better", because instead of talking about the topic you start to talk about me and ruin the discussion with personal insults. Again, it was 38 years ago. I'm not Hal, but without deep research I think it's strange to expect a complete list of recorded songs in a random Facebook post, that's my point.
Why not just ask Hal to elaborate on this topic since he's open for questions anyway? This is a healthy way to continue the discussion.
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I asked Hal, but he didn't reply until now
I agree with Pavel that even "primary sources" can make mistakes or can be not that much accurate
I quoted this example a number of times : in an interview, Mark claimed that the trawlerman's song was played on the 54 strat. But Chuck Ainlay provided infos on MK news saying this is the 58 LP, confirmed by Guy.
And when you listen to the song, it's obvious that its sounds like the LP, not the strat
So who is the best "primary source" in this case ?
My bet is that Mark tried different guitars for the song in different takes, so maybe one featuring the 54 strat, and that would explain why he chose to play the song live with the strat (on tour and on Boothbay)
Another example is Neil Dorfsman syaing that MFN was played on a LP junior on the studio version. No pic during the sessions shows such a guitar, an no biog mentions Mark ahving such a guitar. So again, it must be a mistake
anyway, it shows that even the most concerned person can be wrong sometimes. I don't blame them, it's impossible to remember such details in a musical carreer when you have done tones of recordings and tours.
So it's normal that they "may be overwhelmed with emotions and exaggerate the past" I agree with that
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I asked Hal, but he didn't reply until now
I agree with Pavel that even "primary sources" can make mistakes or can be not that much accurate
I quoted this example a number of times : in an interview, Mark claimed that the trawlerman's song was played on the 54 strat. But Chuck Ainlay provided infos on MK news saying this is the 58 LP, confirmed by Guy.
And when you listen to the song, it's obvious that its sounds like the LP, not the strat
So who is the best "primary source" in this case ?
My bet is that Mark tried different guitars for the song in different takes, so maybe one featuring the 54 strat, and that would explain why he chose to play the song live with the strat (on tour and on Boothbay)
Another example is Neil Dorfsman syaing that MFN was played on a LP junior on the studio version. No pic during the sessions shows such a guitar, an no biog mentions Mark ahving such a guitar. So again, it must be a mistake
anyway, it shows that even the most concerned person can be wrong sometimes. I don't blame them, it's impossible to remember such details in a musical carreer when you have done tones of recordings and tours.
So it's normal that they "may be overwhelmed with emotions and exaggerate the past" I agree with that
It's one thing getting the fine details of specific instruments on specific tracks mixed up or incorrect. It's something completely different recalling songs you recorded/player on. I'd be inclined to trust what Hal says.
If you asked him what instruments he played or what his rig settings were for specific songs that becomes less reliable.
It's comparable to asking someone what exams they sat 30 years ago and then asking what the specific questions were on each paper!
Either way we probably will never know, well at least until someone else breaks ranks and writes, kiss and tell all, their definitive DS point of view in print......
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Well, I don’t understand why a fan wouldn’t want more songs from one of the most if not the most creative period of Mark’s career. Seriously, you always have the option not to hear what you don’t want to don’t you. When it comes to MK I’m always on the the more the better team.
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Well, I don’t understand why a fan wouldn’t want more songs from one of the most if not the most creative period of Mark’s career. Seriously, you always have the option not to hear what you don’t want to don’t you. When it comes to MK I’m always on the the more the better team.
Of course Eddie.
Sometimes it gets like religious canon amongst fans on here, I think anyone who remotely entertains the possibility of additional material from the LOG sessions can now well and truly regard themselves as a heritc. 😉
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By the way, when did Mark write Rüdiger? Didn't he start it in the early 80s? IF that's the case, and IF the 96 version has any traces of the music when Mark first started working on it, to me it sounds like it could have been "conceived" during the LOG era. Would be awesome to hear it played on a Spanish guitar and with marimbas.
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By the way, when did Mark write Rüdiger? Didn't he start it in the early 80s? IF that's the case, and IF the 96 version has any traces of the music when Mark first started working on it, to me it sounds like it could have been "conceived" during the LOG era. Would be awesome to hear it played on a Spanish guitar and with marimbas.
I recall that although he did indeed write it in the early 1980s the music didn't come along until he started playing with The Dullards.
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By the way, when did Mark write Rüdiger? Didn't he start it in the early 80s? IF that's the case, and IF the 96 version has any traces of the music when Mark first started working on it, to me it sounds like it could have been "conceived" during the LOG era. Would be awesome to hear it played on a Spanish guitar and with marimbas.
I recall that although he did indeed write it in the early 1980s the music didn't come along until he started playing with The Dullards.
I also recall he said he never changed a single word in it till the official release, and yes, that is was written in 1980, at least the lyrics. Also the lyrics for "One More Matinee" was written in 1967-ish according to Mark.
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During A Night In London he states he started writing the song around the time John Lennon was murdered, and then says he stared writing it about 15 years ago, John was murdered 8th December 1980 and A Night in London was recorded 15th April 1996 so that gives the window of when Rudiger was written.
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Similarly sketch of Planet Of New Orleans was created much earlier.
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By the way, when did Mark write Rüdiger? Didn't he start it in the early 80s? IF that's the case, and IF the 96 version has any traces of the music when Mark first started working on it, to me it sounds like it could have been "conceived" during the LOG era. Would be awesome to hear it played on a Spanish guitar and with marimbas.
It was surely late 70s, because I remember there exists an early demo with David, and it is quite different musically compared to what we know from 1996 :-) Jeroen has it on his website - on some compilation bootleg if I remember correctly.
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By the way, when did Mark write Rüdiger? Didn't he start it in the early 80s? IF that's the case, and IF the 96 version has any traces of the music when Mark first started working on it, to me it sounds like it could have been "conceived" during the LOG era. Would be awesome to hear it played on a Spanish guitar and with marimbas.
It was surely late 70s, because I remember there exists an early demo with David, and it is quite different musically compared to what we know from 1996 :-) Jeroen has it on his website - on some compilation bootleg if I remember correctly.
Really?
First time I hear about a Rüdiger demo from the late 70's with David on guitar... And Jeroen having it on his website!
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By the way, when did Mark write Rüdiger? Didn't he start it in the early 80s? IF that's the case, and IF the 96 version has any traces of the music when Mark first started working on it, to me it sounds like it could have been "conceived" during the LOG era. Would be awesome to hear it played on a Spanish guitar and with marimbas.
It was surely late 70s, because I remember there exists an early demo with David, and it is quite different musically compared to what we know from 1996 :-) Jeroen has it on his website - on some compilation bootleg if I remember correctly.
Really?
First time I hear about a Rüdiger demo from the late 70's with David on guitar... And Jeroen having it on his website!
+1
more info/ link please
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By the way, when did Mark write Rüdiger? Didn't he start it in the early 80s? IF that's the case, and IF the 96 version has any traces of the music when Mark first started working on it, to me it sounds like it could have been "conceived" during the LOG era. Would be awesome to hear it played on a Spanish guitar and with marimbas.
It was surely late 70s, because I remember there exists an early demo with David, and it is quite different musically compared to what we know from 1996 :-) Jeroen has it on his website - on some compilation bootleg if I remember correctly.
Really?
First time I hear about a Rüdiger demo from the late 70's with David on guitar... And Jeroen having it on his website!
+1
more info/ link please
But why then Mark told the story that the song was written after John Lennon's death? Either way, I'm not surprised that some songs are old. I think Mark has a lot of songs with early beginnings that we never were aware of... Songwriting is a tough job so no suprise he uses some early snippets in his work. He may have still some old words in a notebook somewhere!
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Apparently he had Rudiger's words after John Lennon's death but he couldn't find the melody.