A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: WaterofLove on November 10, 2015, 02:14:00 PM
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According to this she is born in 1959 (and their relationship was in 1978) http://www.in.com/holly-beth-vincent/biography-328674.html
Whenever watching the version of Romeo and Juliet where MK almost cries I get the feeling that Holly Vincent was the love of his life. I was quite surprised when I found out her age, because I couldn't imagine that academic and well-read Mark would find a teenage girl interesting enough to have a serious relationship with her.
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Their relationship was in 1979, not in 1978 so she was rather 20
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10 years in difference in a relationship is nothing. :)
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I couldn't imagine that academic and well-read Mark would find a teenage girl interesting enough to have a serious relationship with her.
Concerning her teenage years, please don't forget that ethical standarts and manners are apt to change with the times.
By way of example suffice it to recall Brooke Shields starring in the film The Blue Lagoon (1980), she was 15 years old at that time.
Now it seems to be unthinkable, however back then hardly anybody was embarrassed in fact.
In addition, I don't think, they used to have a serious relationship in every sense of the word.
Most likely, he was obsessed by desires, while she behaved under a principle: 'treat them mean, keep them keen'.
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A girl with a Schecter Dream Machine might appear very s*xy to some of us guitar geeks ;)
[this forum seems to have an auto filter that changes 's*xy' to 'spammy' when I write it properly!?]
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I wouldn't call a young woman a "teenage girl". :)
...By that age, she had already moved out from home and had started her career.
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Whenever watching the version of Romeo and Juliet where MK almost cries I get the feeling that Holly Vincent was the love of his life.
What version do you mean?
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I would say that MK is always moved when he sings R&J mainly because he's very nostalgic. It can be as well because it reminds him something painful that we do not know about. I don't know very much about his love affair with Holly only that he was depressive when she left which is quite normal!!!
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Whenever watching the version of Romeo and Juliet where MK almost cries I get the feeling that Holly Vincent was the love of his life.
Did you mean "Where Do You Think You're Going"?
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Whenever watching the version of Romeo and Juliet where MK almost cries I get the feeling that Holly Vincent was the love of his life.
What version do you mean?
i think it´s a version from ´Night in London´dvd..MK has such a sad eyes during performance of this song :'(
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I couldn't imagine that academic and well-read Mark would find a teenage girl interesting enough to have a serious relationship with her.
Concerning her teenage years, please don't forget that ethical standarts and manners are apt to change with the times.
By way of example suffice it to recall Brooke Shields starring in the film The Blue Lagoon (1980), she was 15 years old at that time.
Now it seems to be unthinkable, however back then hardly anybody was embarrassed in fact.
In addition, I don't think, they used to have a serious relationship in every sense of the word.
Most likely, he was obsessed by desires, while she behaved under a principle: 'treat them mean, keep them keen'.
It's not a big difference of age. She was a young adult back then and as Lis said moved out from her home and started her career.
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Here is clip showing Holly Vincent on stage, seems to be from 1981, about two years after their relationship.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aLZnCjD8vQ
On a side note, I think it was her who made Mark turn to Schecters some months later, when he felt he needed a new guitar for the bigger stages and tours.
In an interview from late 1979 he said that his girlfriend has a Schecter Strat that is much better than his Fender, and that he should get a better guitar, too.
In the video - and in most pictures I found in the web - she plays this nice Schecter with the flamed body, but with a Fender neck. No idea when the neck was exchanged, or what neck it had when Mark played it.
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Christ, the way some people are talking you would think it was Gary Glitter, Bill Wyman or Jimmy Page we are talking about. I knew what I was doing when I was 19... in fact, when I was 20 I went out with a girl who was 29 for quite a while, and I don't feel like I was exploited!
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I guess it was just that the time was wrong.
(Couldn't resist. :P )
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I guess it was just that the time was wrong.
(Couldn't resist. :P )
Agreed, Dan. I think this really sums it up. :'(
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Absolutely, it was just like that, I suppose!! We will never know anything about what really happened in MK's private life and this is it!!
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Holly has a cast in that Old Grey Whistle Test video ?
Or it's a big sock with words on it
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Sounded like a rip-off of the Pretenders. Pretty stereotypical for the era.
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Whenever watching the version of Romeo and Juliet where MK almost cries I get the feeling that Holly Vincent was the love of his life.
Did you mean "Where Do You Think You're Going"?
I read about this "emotional" performance before, which version is that?
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Whenever watching the version of Romeo and Juliet where MK almost cries I get the feeling that Holly Vincent was the love of his life.
Did you mean "Where Do You Think You're Going"?
I read about this "emotional" performance before, which version is that?
Boston '79
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n9vcM70PD8
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Whenever watching the version of Romeo and Juliet where MK almost cries I get the feeling that Holly Vincent was the love of his life.
Did you mean "Where Do You Think You're Going"?
I read about this "emotional" performance before, which version is that?
Boston '79
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n9vcM70PD8
I read about this in the Oldfield book : Ed said something like "Holly phoned Mark and said to him it was over just before the gig. He sung WDYTYG like he never did before, I had tears in my eyes". We know that it happened during the 2nd US tour in late 79, but there is no date and location.
I have always wondered if this version was on bootleg or not, and which one it was.
Val, how do you know its' the Boston one ? Do you have more info, or is it just that you feel this version is more emotional than usual ?
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Whenever watching the version of Romeo and Juliet where MK almost cries I get the feeling that Holly Vincent was the love of his life.
Did you mean "Where Do You Think You're Going"?
I read about this "emotional" performance before, which version is that?
Boston '79
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n9vcM70PD8
Val, how do you know its' the Boston one ? Do you have more info, or is it just that you feel this version is more emotional than usual ?
JF - Purely because it says Boston on the video and we have discussed this version before - no other reason except he does sound very emotional. :) It was discussed, albeit briefly, here:
http://www.amarkintime.org/forum/index.php?topic=350.45
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Whenever watching the version of Romeo and Juliet where MK almost cries I get the feeling that Holly Vincent was the love of his life.
Did you mean "Where Do You Think You're Going"?
I read about this "emotional" performance before, which version is that?
Boston '79
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n9vcM70PD8
Val, how do you know its' the Boston one ? Do you have more info, or is it just that you feel this version is more emotional than usual ?
JF - Purely because it says Boston on the video and we have discussed this version before - no other reason except he does sound very emotional. :) It was discussed, albeit briefly, here:
http://www.amarkintime.org/forum/index.php?topic=350.45
I was asking why did you know the Boston version was the one mentionned by Ed in the Oldfield book, not why the YT link was the Boston version :D
anyway it seems we will never know for sure which gig it was when they broke up, and that had this special version of the song. Maybe it is this one, maybe it is another one we have on another bootleg, maybe it's one we will never hear....
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Val, how do you know its' the Boston one ? Do you have more info, or is it just that you feel this version is more emotional than usual ?
JF - Purely because it says Boston on the video and we have discussed this version before - no other reason except he does sound very emotional. :) It was discussed, albeit briefly, here:
http://www.amarkintime.org/forum/index.php?topic=350.45
[/quote]
I was asking why did you know the Boston version was the one mentionned by Ed in the Oldfield book, not why the YT link was the Boston version :D
anyway it seems we will never know for sure which gig it was when they broke up, and that had this special version of the song. Maybe it is this one, maybe it is another one we have on another bootleg, maybe it's one we will never hear....
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All his singing around this era was full of emotion/passion. Don't think we'll ever know for sure.
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WOW. That Boston-bootleg just HAS to be right after she broke up with him. It sounds like he whispers, like he is about to cry, his voice is breaking. I have never heard him like that, even if his songs are emotional in general. If they didn't have a serious relationship, why would he sing like this, why would he write R&J, why would he still almost cry when singing? I am referring to the Night in London-version of R&J where he has tears in his eyes and his mouth is moving like when before crying.
Look at 3.10 and from 5.40.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7GJgncybV8
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I noticed it as well but I did not know the first time I saw this video, for whom he wrote the song. I thought it was for his first wife. Usually the first cut is the deepest!! Dixit Rod Stewart!! He was certainly very much in love with her because he married her rather young!! And what happened with their marriage was certainly a big emotional shock. Now that was my theory up until now but if you say it's for Holly then maybe you are right...
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I noticed it as well but I did not know the first time I saw this video, for whom he wrote the song. I thought it was for his first wife. Usually the first cut is the deepest!! Dixit Rod Stewart!! He was certainly very much in love with her because he married her rather young!! And what happened with their marriage was certainly a big emotional shock. Now that was my theory up until now but if you say it's for Holly then maybe you are right...
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song about his relationship with one of his grilfriends in his youth (maybe Sue Hercombe ?) is Down to the waterline
songs about his relationship with his first wife are on the first album : water of love, setting me up, six blade knife, and on communique : follow me home
songs about his relationship with Holly Vincent are : Romeo & Juliet, love over gold and it never rains (a "trilogy" as said in the oldifeld book, although Mark denied it)
songs about his relationship with Lourdes could be : when it comes to you, fade to black, how long, maybe your latest trick ?
songs about his relationship with Kitty are all love songs from Golden heart until now
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Thanks JF.
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I noticed it as well but I did not know the first time I saw this video, for whom he wrote the song. I thought it was for his first wife. Usually the first cut is the deepest!! Dixit Rod Stewart!! He was certainly very much in love with her because he married her rather young!! And what happened with their marriage was certainly a big emotional shock. Now that was my theory up until now but if you say it's for Holly then maybe you are right...
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The lyrics in the song are more suitable for the Holly-situation because when Kathy was married to Mark he wasn't a rock star and couldn't be exploited in the way that the lyrics describes. "I dreamed your dream for you and now your dream is real". He stated that he thought Holly was taking advantage of his position to "boost her career". And of course that famous line he took from the interview when she said she had a scene with him. And it might have worked because she did get a record contract. However, I am not sure if this was with Ed Bicknell or Charlie Gillett? I think Holly lived in London for a while, and maybe she met Mark there?
Quote from the deleted post: "He had none too many women". Hmm, he did almost get a new one immediately after a breakup? Holly was gone in 79 and he married Lourdes in 83, so they must have met quite shortly after the breakup. And he divorced Lourdes in 93 and started dating Kitty in 94 and married her in 97. Maybe you refer to the gap between 73 (end of marriage with Kathy) and 79 when the Holly-thing started? As earlier discussed it is most likely that he would have written a song about it if there were a relationship between Kathy and Holly. Quite interesting actually, maybe he was picky.
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As a matter of fact I can imagine that the divorce with Lourdes was painful again because his twins were quite young, about 5 years old and what maybe brought the tears in his eyes during this show was taking place just around the after divorce period so maybe and it is only my interprétation, he was indeed very sad thinking about his sons as Everybody said he is a very caring Dad!!
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Maybe you refer to...
I meant women at large, rather than wives, but couldn't get my tongue around.
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Maybe you refer to...
I meant women at large, rather than wives, but couldn't get my tongue around.
Do you mean he should have had more girlfriends instead of marrying the ones he had? ;)
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I found this DS report from 1979, here he is with a woman (from 10.38), maybe it is Holly?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-d-XVMf6Qs
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I tend to think that love can be the most precious thing to experience. But it doesn't always last over changing times. But in the end one should find a golden heart.
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Do you mean he should have had more girlfriends instead of marrying the ones he had? ;)
Regret to say, this tempting idea never entered my head. :)
Actually it's a bit unusual to encounter such an interesting phenomenon as a passive expectation of initiative from a woman up to willing obedience. It should seem, a man who has enormous possibilities, must be his own master in matters of acceptance and private responsibility for his fate.
Just to be clear, I see nothing reprehensible of that, rather on the contrary, his personality begins to unclose from somewhat unexpected perspective and becomes more humanistic.
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I found this DS report from 1979, here he is with a woman (from 10.38), maybe it is Holly?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-d-XVMf6Qs
very much looks like her, as much as one can tell from a back.
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Thanks for the Boston 79 and the Bavarian doc.
I had listened and seen those a long time ago.
Haircut does look like Holly from the back, but hard to tell.
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I always thought Holly was later, mid to late 79 or such.
The Bavarian TV docu should be from early 79 (I guess February for the Lonodon footage and late March for the US parts).
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I always thought Holly was later, mid to late 79 or such.
The Bavarian TV docu should be from early 79 (I guess February for the Lonodon footage and late March for the US parts).
I think their relationship was from late 78 until late 79. The Boston bootleg is from September 79, and it is likely that was the evening she dumped him on the phone. Holly lived in London and maybe she had the same UK manager (Bicknell)? Maybe she and MK met for the first time in a record studio in London? And then MK got her signed up with his US manager, the thing that made MK convinced she was exploiting him? I guess they met in London the first time. But if you are right, there must be an unknown woman between Kathy and Holly, interesting thoughts.
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But if you are right, there must be an unknown woman between Kathy and Holly, interesting thoughts.
I don't think so. mark would have wrote at least one song about her then.....
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I think their relationship was from late 78 until late 79.
I think so too, and it confrims my "theory" that Mark's necklace could be a gift from her, or at least at least something related to her, but I have no proof of that.
He wears this neck lace from around early 79
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Holly lived in London and maybe she had the same UK manager (Bicknell)?
The oldfield book says that Holly's mangers were Ed and Paul
The Boston bootleg is from September 79, and it is likely that was the evening she dumped him on the phone.
difficult to say. The oldfield book says that the 2nd american tour from 79 began on 8th september, so the Boston gig.
and that Mark began to be more depressed a bit later in the tour.
He saw a doctor and said to him that he was missing Holly
Then it's explained that at this moment Holly was rehearsing in UK, and that Paul phoned her, and then she phoned mark.....
but the book says that this visit to the doctor was in Philadelphia......was it on the 1st american tour in spring ? Maybe the books author confuses a bit between the 2 american tours of the year ?
the book says that Philadelphia was sold out on this 2nd american tour, but there's no bootleg of a gig in Phildadelphia in late 79...
if Holly phoned Mark after his visit to a doctor in Philadelphia, then it was not the same day as the Boston gig
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But if you are right, there must be an unknown woman between Kathy and Holly, interesting thoughts.
I don't think so. mark would have wrote at least one song about her then.....
Just curious... Do we know who he wrote about in Lady Writer? Portobello Belle or Follow Me Home?
And for that matter... On Every Street?
:think
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i thought on every street was about lourdes...
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Just curious... Do we know who he wrote about in Lady Writer? Portobello Belle or Follow Me Home?
And for that matter... On Every Street?
:think
don't know for sure about Portobello Belle and On every street (but agree with Pottel, "love"songs from late 80ies / early 90ies are likely about Lourdes), but the Oldfiled book says something like :
- "Follow me home is about Mark's past", so I always thought it was about his firts wife, like Water of love, setting me up and six blade knife
- "Lady writer is about an author who was talking about his book on TV", and David says something like "it was too much obvious she was trying to sell his book, we could see it on his face"
we could wonder also about WDYTYG : it was writen before the break up with Holly, so maybe it was originally about his first wife ?
and what about Angel of Mercy : was it about his feeling during his relationship with Holly ? Ed said in the Oldfield book that Marks was "illuminated" by Holly, he really was "in love", like we say in the french : "on his little cloud"
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But if you are right, there must be an unknown woman between Kathy and Holly, interesting thoughts.
I don't think so. mark would have wrote at least one song about her then.....
The woman in Laughs and Jokes?
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But if you are right, there must be an unknown woman between Kathy and Holly, interesting thoughts.
I don't think so. mark would have wrote at least one song about her then.....
The woman in Laughs and Jokes?
I thought that Laughs and Jokes was about his studient life, so before his first mariage ? :hmm
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But if you are right, there must be an unknown woman between Kathy and Holly, interesting thoughts.
I don't think so. mark would have wrote at least one song about her then.....
The woman in Laughs and Jokes?
I thought that Laughs and Jokes was about his studient life, so before his first mariage ? :hmm
LAJADAS is from when he lived in London in a studio with some pals, so indeed before his marriage
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But if you are right, there must be an unknown woman between Kathy and Holly, interesting thoughts.
I don't think so. mark would have wrote at least one song about her then.....
The woman in Laughs and Jokes?
I thought that Laughs and Jokes was about his studient life, so before his first mariage ? :hmm
LAJADAS is from when he lived in London in a studio with some pals, so indeed before his marriage
He moved to London after his divorce. He worked as a journalist in Leeds and then got a bachelor in English at the university of Leeds in 1973. He divorced Kathy and then moved to London where he taught English and played in BD. He married Kathy when he was 22 I think, and divorced her at 24. Kathy was a girl he knew from Newcastle (they were high school sweethearts I presume) and I think his farmwork career was on her father's farm. So I guess he was in a relationship/married the entire time he studied in Leeds. Maybe the song is from the time he shared the flat in Deptford with DK and JI.
I am quite surprised if he did not have any girlfriends between Kathy and Holly, it is the most of his 20's, but I agree that he would most likely have written a song about her. So the question is, why didn't he have someone? Was his heart broken after Kathy? Afraid to get hurt again? Or was he never the "ladies man" before the success?
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Holly lived in London and maybe she had the same UK manager (Bicknell)?
The oldfield book says that Holly's mangers were Ed and Paul
The Boston bootleg is from September 79, and it is likely that was the evening she dumped him on the phone.
difficult to say. The oldfield book says that the 2nd american tour from 79 began on 8th september, so the Boston gig.
and that Mark began to be more depressed a bit later in the tour.
He saw a doctor and said to him that he was missing Holly
Then it's explained that at this moment Holly was rehearsing in UK, and that Paul phoned her, and then she phoned mark.....
but the book says that this visit to the doctor was in Philadelphia......was it on the 1st american tour in spring ? Maybe the books author confuses a bit between the 2 american tours of the year ?
the book says that Philadelphia was sold out on this 2nd american tour, but there's no bootleg of a gig in Phildadelphia in late 79...
if Holly phoned Mark after his visit to a doctor in Philadelphia, then it was not the same day as the Boston gig
Do you know how he and Holly met in the first place? I guess it was in London, but did Holly have Ed as a manager before she met Mark? Or did Mark help her to get Ed as her manager? I thought he helped her with his American manager and not the British one.
Thanks for the information about the doctor and his depression. Wow, I had no idea he missed Holly so much on the tour. But why did Paul phone Holly and then she broke up? Do you think Paul advised Holly to break up because she affected Mark in a negative way on his tours? He couldn't concentrate and had to have help from a psychiatrist?
Ed said in the Oldfield book that Marks was "illuminated" by Holly, he really was "in love", like we say in the french : "on his little cloud"
This is my impression also, I think Holly was the love of his life. Just seeing that version of R&J so many years later, how emotional he gets... I don't see the same emotions when he sings So far away which is about Lourdes. I agree with Throttle, Holly seems like the person that lived by the principle "'treat them mean, keep them keen". She dumped him on the phone, which tells quite a lot about someone. She used him to "boost her career" as Mark said. What was so special about Holly? She seems like a more cynical or hard person than both Lourdes and Kitty. I find it quite fascinating that the girl who is the meanest is the one that touched Mark the most.
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But why did Paul phone Holly and then she broke up? Do you think Paul advised Holly to break up because she affected Mark in a negative way on his tours? He couldn't concentrate and had to have help from a psychiatrist?
not at all.
here is an attempt to resume what is written in the book, it's about only one page that's all. Sorry for my bad translation (I have the french version of the book) :
Mark was really depressed, saw a doctor in Philadelphia and told him he was missing his girlfriend.
then the book explains who she was : singer, same manager, etc...
Paul says he phoned Holly to say to her that Mark was really depressed and that it would be nice if she could have gone to the states during DS'tour, but then she said to Paul that she had already decide to break up with Mark, and that she was going to tell it to him.
Then she phoned Mark, and Ed says that he guessed that she dumped him on phone, but of course, he didn't knew that before the gig. But when he heard Mark singing the song, he understood that something was wrong...
and he says that he sung this song like never before, and that it brought him (Ed) to tears
After that the ambience was really really bad, and that the band was really close to split. Mark didn't say any word, and spent many time beside the bus driver, without saying anything.
An then in november they went to Scandinavian countries
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Holly lived in London and maybe she had the same UK manager (Bicknell)?
The oldfield book says that Holly's mangers were Ed and Paul
The Boston bootleg is from September 79, and it is likely that was the evening she dumped him on the phone.
difficult to say. The oldfield book says that the 2nd american tour from 79 began on 8th september, so the Boston gig.
and that Mark began to be more depressed a bit later in the tour.
He saw a doctor and said to him that he was missing Holly
Then it's explained that at this moment Holly was rehearsing in UK, and that Paul phoned her, and then she phoned mark.....
but the book says that this visit to the doctor was in Philadelphia......was it on the 1st american tour in spring ? Maybe the books author confuses a bit between the 2 american tours of the year ?
the book says that Philadelphia was sold out on this 2nd american tour, but there's no bootleg of a gig in Phildadelphia in late 79...
if Holly phoned Mark after his visit to a doctor in Philadelphia, then it was not the same day as the Boston gig
Do you know how he and Holly met in the first place? I guess it was in London, but did Holly have Ed as a manager before she met Mark? Or did Mark help her to get Ed as her manager? I thought he helped her with his American manager and not the British one.
Thanks for the information about the doctor and his depression. Wow, I had no idea he missed Holly so much on the tour. But why did Paul phone Holly and then she broke up? Do you think Paul advised Holly to break up because she affected Mark in a negative way on his tours? He couldn't concentrate and had to have help from a psychiatrist?
Ed said in the Oldfield book that Marks was "illuminated" by Holly, he really was "in love", like we say in the french : "on his little cloud"
This is my impression also, I think Holly was the love of his life. Just seeing that version of R&J so many years later, how emotional he gets... I don't see the same emotions when he sings So far away which is about Lourdes. I agree with Throttle, Holly seems like the person that lived by the principle "'treat them mean, keep them keen". She dumped him on the phone, which tells quite a lot about someone. She used him to "boost her career" as Mark said. What was so special about Holly? She seems like a more cynical or hard person than both Lourdes and Kitty. I find it quite fascinating that the girl who is the meanest is the one that touched Mark the most.
i very much remember the way he sang so far away in 2008, first show in Amsterdam, i was very impressed by the feeling and emotion he put in that song at that time.
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Wow I see that I missed a great conversation here!!! Really interesting point of views on Mark's relations with women!! I just have something to add, it's only another speculation and it's about the fact that he maybe didn't have any serious relation with another girl after he divorced suddenly from Kathy up until he met Holly!! Wouldn't you be rather in state of shock after what happened during his first marriage that was revealed in the papers exactly when he married Kitty in 1997!!! Anyway if I were him I would surely have been very hurt and for a long time!!! Speaking about the way his marriage with Kathy ended, I wonder who talked to the Newspaper about Kathy's son born when MK was still legally her husband and why this became public in the middle of his third wedding!! I have an idea about this person but I won't tell it here!!
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But why did Paul phone Holly and then she broke up? Do you think Paul advised Holly to break up because she affected Mark in a negative way on his tours? He couldn't concentrate and had to have help from a psychiatrist?
not at all.
here is an attempt to resume what is written in the book, it's about only one page that's all. Sorry for my bad translation (I have the french version of the book) :
Mark was really depressed, saw a doctor in Philadelphia and told him he was missing his girlfriend.
then the book explains who she was : singer, same manager, etc...
Paul says he phoned Holly to say to her that Mark was really depressed and that it would be nice if she could have gone to the states during DS'tour, but then she said to Paul that she had already decide to break up with Mark, and that she was going to tell it to him.
Then she phoned Mark, and Ed says that he guessed that she dumped him on phone, but of course, he didn't knew that before the gig. But when he heard Mark singing the song, he understood that something was wrong...
and he says that he sung this song like never before, and that it brought him (Ed) to tears
After that the ambience was really really bad, and that the band was really close to split. Mark didn't say any word, and spent many time beside the bus driver, without saying anything.
An then in november they went to Scandinavian countries
Thanks for explaining! He seems so sensitive. Was it Mark's mood after he got dumped by Holly that nearly splitted up the band, because it changed the atmosphere and MK got more depressed? The guitar was after all his dream, so that Holly could have this huge impact on him surprises me
Wow I see that I missed a great conversation here!!! Really interesting point of views on Mark's relations with women!! I just have something to add, it's only another speculation and it's about the fact that he maybe didn't have any serious relation with another girl after he divorced suddenly from Kathy up until he met Holly!! Wouldn't you be rather in state of shock after what happened during his first marriage that was revealed in the papers exactly when he married Kitty in 1997!!! Anyway if I were him I would surely have been very hurt and for a long time!!! Speaking about the way his marriage with Kathy ended, I wonder who talked to the Newspaper about Kathy's son born when MK was still legally her husband and why this became public in the middle of his third wedding!! I have an idea about this person but I won't tell it here!!
I had no idea that the affair Kathy had got publicly known at the same time he married Kitty. Seems like someone was out to destroy some of his happiness... What an awful thing to do. I think you are right, he must have been devastated after what she did to him. And then he found Holly and was let down again. I think someone on this forum uploaded the article from the paper, do you know where I can read it?
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No Water of Love, I tried to find this article but you have to pay to have it. Ask someone on this gotum who was on the discussion at the time. I just had the beginning of this article on the Net. Would be interesting to read the rest... I felt sorry for MK when I found out...
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Thanks for answering, I don't mind paying for reading it, I guess it isn't a fortune anyways :)
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The Daily Mail article published March 1, 1997 is called "A Secret Wife and the Love Child That Still Haunts Mark Knopfler"
You can get free excerpt :
https://www.questia.com/article/1G1-110801209/a-secret-wife-and-the-love-child-that-still-haunts (https://www.questia.com/article/1G1-110801209/a-secret-wife-and-the-love-child-that-still-haunts)
Shorter preview also here :
https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-110801209.html (https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-110801209.html)
I suspect that both will ask money to access the article in full.
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Was it Mark's mood after he got dumped by Holly that nearly splitted up the band, because it changed the atmosphere and MK got more depressed? The guitar was after all his dream, so that Holly could have this huge impact on him surprises me
the broke up was not the only one reason of band bad's mood and nearly split situation.
Ed explains that several reasons could explain this : 2 years without any holiday, always in a rush for tour, promo, TV, itw, recording studio,etc... and also constant promiscuity between band members, difficult relation ship between brothers, not very good sales for the Communique album in USA, etc..etc... and of course personnal problems that added to the situation. Ed says that this 2nd american tour in late 79 was evil, catastrophic, regarding human relations
And you can see and hear that mood in the Arena documentary. David explains that this kind of life during 2 years (late 77- late 79) was too too much for him.
So the break up with Holly wasn't the only reason, but of course it was a big part.
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You can add if my memory is good that on some parts the tour was not successful either.
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You can add if my memory is good that on some parts the tour was not successful either.
yes indeed, especially at the end of the tour (late october I guess), but first places like Boston or Philly were sold out though
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Yes me too because I surfed a lot to find a free version of this article but
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But couldn't find it. You are probably right that it certainly doesn't cost so much!! Tell me what they asked you Water of Love. Thanks.
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The Daily Mail article published March 1, 1997 is called "A Secret Wife and the Love Child That Still Haunts Mark Knopfler"
You can get free excerpt :
https://www.questia.com/article/1G1-110801209/a-secret-wife-and-the-love-child-that-still-haunts (https://www.questia.com/article/1G1-110801209/a-secret-wife-and-the-love-child-that-still-haunts)
Shorter preview also here :
https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-110801209.html (https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-110801209.html)
I suspect that both will ask money to access the article in full.
Thanks a lot ds1984!! :thumbsup
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Does anyone know the story on that article from 97? It seems like a strange thing to write when someone is getting married, and maybe especially Mark since he is so private. It was an interesting read, but bad taste. I can imagine Mark not being too happy about it (if he knew anything about it).
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I could only read the beginning of this article. Some people on this forum a while ago already discussed it!! I wasn't aware of what happened to MK with his first wife until I found out here by having a look on it's thread on AMIT. Then I realized that it was top secret until MK got married with Kitty and during their honeymoon!!! So I came to the conclusion that someone who obviously had the info was really wanting badly to hurt him!!! But as I said I have an idea on the name of this person but without any proof. Better drop this subject, too tricky and private!!
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Now I have read the full article at Questia. It wasn't too much worth reading after the cut-off point for non-paying members.
Quite interesting that Kathy supported him financially when he was in Leeds, because he lacked some O-levels to get a full student grant. Can someone explain what this O-level thing means? Does it mean that his grades weren't good enough or does it mean that he lacked some subjects to have a full diploma from high school?
Also surprising to read that he didn't have the self confidence to chase his guitar dream as a teenager and instead chose journalism. He seems quite confident from the early DS days so he must have developed a lot in those years.
It also says in the beginning that Kathy was his first girlfriend, but it seems that he had someone in the beginning of his teen years, which Down to the waterline is based on. Maybe they started dating very early and she actually is the one that inspired DTTW and not Sue Hercombe as earlier discussed? The article says that Kathy wanted a divorce for several years and that Mark tried to win her back, but in 1979 they got divorced. Maybe Holly was the reason he made the decision to give up his marriage?
It seems like the writer thinks R&J actually is about Kathy.
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I ascertained once again that it was a great piece of luck for him to meet with Kitty at long last.
Not because she is better than others, just because they are suited to each other in the best possible way.
Like a screw with a nut. :)
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I have the whole article and in my opinion there are a few things not quite right, so I wouldn't believe too much about what is written! For example, it mentions that Mark has TWO older siblings, David and Ruth. David is younger than Mark, Ruth is the eldest.
Regarding the O-Levels (Ordinary Level GCE) - he passed in five subjects and went on to take A-Levels (Advanced Level GCE) in the sixth form and passed in two. He eventually attained a 2.1 class degree at Leeds University - upper second class honour. So the article confuses O-Level with A-Level.
I feel that this article was written in a very romantic fiction style and it fitted the article very well to assume that R&J was written about Kathy, which is probably unlikely.
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I ascertained once again that it was a great piece of luck for him to meet with Kitty at long last.
Not because she is better than others, just because they are suited to each other in the best possible way.
Like a screw with a nut. :)
Absolutely Throttle!! Mark looked much more happy and healthy after he met Kitty!! You can see it on his face!! He became really more handsome when he gave up cigarettes because he wasn't any more so skinny and pale!! If you're comparing his tired face in 1992 when he was still on Tour with DS and his healthy rounder cheeks in 1995 when he made his introducing show at the BBC for his first solo album, you can really see the difference!! :wave
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Just curious... Do we know who he wrote about in Lady Writer?
:think
the Oldfiled book says something like :
- "Lady writer is about an author who was talking about his book on TV", and David says something like "it was too much obvious she was trying to sell his book, we could see it on his face"
on the recent french book, I found this info about Lady writer :
even if the writer is not directly named, it is very likely Marina Warner who wrote in 1976 Alone of all her s e x : the myth and the cult of virgin Mary.
in this song Mark is mostly talking about his love break up, and compares Warner's erudition to his wife's one, more limited
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Just curious... Do we know who he wrote about in Lady Writer?
:think
the Oldfiled book says something like :
- "Lady writer is about an author who was talking about his book on TV", and David says something like "it was too much obvious she was trying to sell his book, we could see it on his face"
on the recent french book, I found this info about Lady writer :
even if the writer is not directly named, it is very likely Marina Warner who wrote in 1976 Alone of all her s e x : the myth and the cult of virgin Mary.
in this song Mark is mostly talking about his love break up, and compares Warner's erudition to his wife's one, more limited
Thanks for this information. From the lyrics in Lady writer "Yes and your rich old man,you know he'd a call her a dead ringer", this is maybe the lecturer Kathy fell in love with, who was into literature and books? And he wasn't a fan of Marina Warner? I think the man Kathy cheated on Mark with was some years older and also teached at the same university as Mark at the same time (!). Must have been devastating for him working at the same place.
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Just curious... Do we know who he wrote about in Lady Writer?
:think
the Oldfiled book says something like :
- "Lady writer is about an author who was talking about his book on TV", and David says something like "it was too much obvious she was trying to sell his book, we could see it on his face"
on the recent french book, I found this info about Lady writer :
even if the writer is not directly named, it is very likely Marina Warner who wrote in 1976 Alone of all her s e x : the myth and the cult of virgin Mary.
in this song Mark is mostly talking about his love break up, and compares Warner's erudition to his wife's one, more limited
This is great -- thanks JF! :D
*sometimes MK does write some rather biting lines, eh? :-\