A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: superval99 on November 24, 2011, 09:11:04 AM
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Mark is now # 44! :disbelief
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BAHAHAHAHAH that's a JOKE????
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so what? who cares?
(well, you 2 apparently ;D )
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For us, he is #1 ;D
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For us, he is #1 ;D
and it's all that matters
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He will always be #1 to me, of course! :)
It is interesting to read who is where on the list, though. John Lennon at #55, but Lindsey Buckingham at #100? Doesn't make sense! ::)
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Who's number one?
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Who's number one?
The usual suspect! Hendrix. Clapton #2
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pfff.... lol
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I could bring on some versions of "Sultans" that would make us happy that MK is still in the Top 100... ;D
LE
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I could bring on some versions of "Sultans" that would make us happy that MK is still in the Top 100... ;D
LE
:lol I really enjoyed SOS on the 2010 tour, though! :)
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Yes, of course. I was only kidding! :)
It is still the MK reference song. As someone pointed out lately, he would not be able to judge Ian Thomas as MK's new drummer until he has heard him
drumming on Sultans. But that's another story of course, this is about guitarists. I guess MK couldn't care less if he is in the list or not...
LE
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Those rankings are as corrupt as a Fifa election!
You know I always check the monthly guitar mags in the stands in hope that one day the spotlight will fall on Knop/DS, but no! Only endless Pink Floyd, Prog Rock, Led Zeppelin specials - god I even saw a whole magazine dedicated to Jack White the other day!! :disbelief
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I was watching the Martin Scorcese film about George Harrison the other day, and Paul McCartney was saying that when he and John started The Beatles, they didn't have a guitarist, because they didn't consider either of themselves good enough - then George turned up and solved the problem! Now, amazingly, we have John Lennon at # 55 on the RS list - just 11 places behind MK and 45 places ahead of Lindsey Buckingham! ::)
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It's only a question of sex, drugs, scandals, suicides and being an illuminati puppet.
According to what we know, MK is not the best at that game.
My personal bet is sooner or later Lady Gaga or Rihanna will reach RS top ten Guitarists.
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It's just a popularity contest. Comes as no surprise to me what with all the attention lately regards a Sabbath reunion..that Iommi ended up as high on the list as he did...no where near that high last year. Once again..apparently someone feels that Edge is a greater guitarist than Mark :disbelief. And Neil Young..at 17???!!!! ARE...YOU...KIDDING...ME??? :disbelief. And lastly..the great Robert Johnson..the father of all modern blues...he is at 74...yup..74. Why bother
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For us he is #1 for sure, but if you ask other guitar players for their influences (ask pros or amateurs, doesn't matter) you will see how far up he is on verybody's list :)
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It's just a popularity contest. Comes as no surprise to me what with all the attention lately regards a Sabbath reunion..that Iommi ended up as high on the list as he did...no where near that high last year. Once again..apparently someone feels that Edge is a greater guitarist than Mark :disbelief. And Neil Young..at 17???!!!! ARE...YOU...KIDDING...ME??? :disbelief. And lastly..the great Robert Johnson..the father of all modern blues...he is at 74...yup..74. Why bother
Ha! The Edge has been playing the same old riff for about 30 years!
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My personal bet is sooner or later Lady Gaga or Rihanna will reach RS top ten Guitarists.
No, David Hasselhoff will be #1. He deserves it. ;D
I'm glad that he is keeping a low profile and I imagine that he would feel quite uncomfortable if it would be the other way round.
To me it's perfect the way it is, we may even catch a place in the first rows when he is on the road. And MK isn't constantly observed by/exposed to the tabloids, so he can concentrate on what he loves to do - writing songs, recording them and touring, and, of course, taking care of his family just like the man in the street.
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The list has more to do with how influential or innovative the guitarists are/have been. Even though Mark is both a talented and respected guitarist, he might not be as influential as we'd like to think he is. That's why you see people like Clapton and Kurt Cobain as high up as they are.
Too often you see these idiotic debates on youtube about "my guitar hero is better than yours" without anyone even giving a thought to what is meant by "better". In terms of technique? Ok, that's kind of quantifiable. Feeling? That's very subjective. Taste and tone? Also subjective. Degree of influence? To a certain extent possible to measure.
For Mark, on a scale from 1 to 10, 1 being the lowest score, I'd give 5.5 for technical ability, 5.5 for degree of influence, 10 for feeling and 9.5 for taste and tone :)
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very well put Jackal. You can't measure feeling!
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I agree with your rating system, Jackal but I would give him 7.5 for technical ability (it is indeed ability and he has that really up high there for sure). Would be interesting to see how you would rate the great Chet Atkins in this system?
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Very good point, Jackal!
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I agree with your rating system, Jackal but I would give him 7.5 for technical ability (it is indeed ability and he has that really up high there for sure). Would be interesting to see how you would rate the great Chet Atkins in this system?
agree kooba. And on that same scale satriani would get a 9'5 on ability, and an 8,5 on tone and a 7 on feeling.
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I'd give him a 10 for all ;D
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Kooba, Well, I'd still say 5.5 for technical ability. For me a 10 in technical ability would be given to Steve Vai or Tommy Emmanuel. Albert Lee I'd give an 8. Again it can't be perfectly accurate, but the point is that Mark is not up there with the amazing technical wizards. Even Richard I would say is better technically than Mark, but Richard would get a 5 or 6 for feeling (by feeling I mean "emotions"). Chet I would rate 9.5 for ability, 7 for influence, 5 or 6 for feeling, 9 for taste and tone. (This is really subjective nonsense of course :) It's like telling which way the wind blows by sticking your finger in your mouth and then blow on it :) .)
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It may be subjective but no more than that Rolling Stone list. In fact, I think if you created such a list using your criteria it would be far more objective because you rate guitarists based on many aspects. The main thing is who should get on that list and who never should ;).
So, if MK is only 5.5 it means that he's only half as good (technically) as Tommy Emmanuel...? :o I think Tommy should get 11 out of 10 on the technical side but I still would rate MK higher. And, you're right about Richard. He's played before and probably taught MK a few things too :)
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With respect Jackal...MK can play Tommy Emmauel under the table......Mks technical ability is incredible......Emmanuel could not play what Knopfler can play.....
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Millionaire,
No, that's plainly wrong. For sure Mark can play more advanced stuff than we get to hear on records and live, but having listened to a lot of different guitar players over the years, there are literally tons of players that can do what Mark does and more, even bedroom players on YouTube. Maybe not exactly how Mark does it as Mark has a very unique style, but just because it is unique doesn't make it technically advanced if you know what I mean. Mark's strength is that he is a well-rounded musician. He composes good songs, arranges them well and plays what fits the context.
As for Tommy Emmanuel, he is just a wizard. I mean, the things he can do live ... I've seen him in concert, and he has a very wide repertoire of incredibly complex and difficult tunes and he basically never hits a wrong note! I mean, he goes from Chet Atkins to Yngwie Malmsteen (well, almost) and gets it right every time. Plus, he's just one guy up there! No band to lean on. Where Tommy is lacking though is in his compositions and in that he overplays. Then again, I believe one's playing style very often reflects one's personality, and Tommy is just a totally crazy livewire, like Chet Atkins with ADHD and on speed. He just can't hold it back. Although he should ...
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Giving a 5.5 to a guitarplayer who's name is Mark Knopfler is just nonsense imho. Mark can play anything you want him to play.
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...it's all in the fingers....
there's Davey G. and there's Marky....then it is quite for a long time...
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Lars, It's only my opinion, but remember now we're only talking about the technical aspects. Mark's total score would be much higher because of other aspects.
I'd love to contact some pro guitar players and musicians and have them come up with a proper set of criteria, then create a large selection of guitar players (or even use the players on the Rolling Stone list) and then make a poll somewhere. There's of course the issue of genre, and if you're not used to certain musical styles, it's difficult to appreciate how good someone is within that genre.
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...it's all in the fingers....
there's Davey G. and there's Marky....then it is quite for a long time...
Did you realize he went from #82 to #14 ? !!!
A few years ago he was an average guitarist : #82, even worse than MK.
I guess he's worked hard during the past 5 or 6 years, practiced a lot, secretly watched videos of great guitarists such as Kurt Cobain to improve his technique.
Hard work always pays off. What a reward : ranked #14 today. He must be proud :he can consider himself as good guitarist. Surely not a world class, but a very good one.
A life achievement.
Unlike Mark Knopfler who almost an average guitarist and make no effort. ;)
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Did you realize he went from #82 to #14 ? !!!
A few years ago he was an average guitarist : #82, even worse than MK.
I guess he's worked hard during the past 5 or 6 years, practiced a lot, secretly watched videos of great guitarists such as Kurt Cobain to improve his technique.
Hard work always pays off. What a reward : ranked #14 today. He must be proud :he can consider himself as good guitarist. Surely not a world class, but a very good one.
A life achievement.
Unlike Mark Knopfler who almost an average guitarist and make no effort. ;)
HAHAHA! Great. Just goes to show how meaningless such a list is.
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...it's all in the fingers....
there's Davey G. and there's Marky....then it is quite for a long time...
Did you realize he went from #82 to #14 ? !!!
A few years ago he was an average guitarist : #82, even worse than MK.
I guess he's worked hard during the past 5 or 6 years, practiced a lot, secretly watched videos of great guitarists such as Kurt Cobain to improve his technique.
Hard work always pays off. What a reward : ranked #14 today. He must be proud :he can consider himself as good guitarist. Surely not a world class, but a very good one.
A life achievement.
Unlike Mark Knopfler who almost an average guitarist and make no effort. ;)
Hi Tunnel! I loved your post - it puts everything into perspective! ;)
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Those ranking lists always make me laugh. :lol
Mark is always underrated. (same for JJ Cale, David Gilmour & Tony Joe White :disbelief )
You're right Jackal, it's all about technical abilities.
They consider MK doesn't have a great technique because he doesn't play with a pick.
I don't agree. Satriani can play faster than MK, and then ? :o
Let's do it simple. Mark has played with many great guitarists, for example RS#2 EC, Chet Atkins or recently Bob Dylan ;) on Don't think twice it's alright.
I don't think he's ever been ridiculous while playing on the same stage.
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Those ranking lists always make me laugh. :lol
Mark is always underrated. (same for JJ Cale, David Gilmour & Tony Joe White :disbelief )
You're right Jackal, it's all about technical abilities.
They consider MK doesn't have a great technique because he doesn't play with a pick.
I don't agree. Satriani can play faster than MK, and then ? :o
Let's do it simple. Mark has played with many great guitarists, for example RS#2 EC, Chet Atkins or recently Bob Dylan ;) on Don't think twice it's alright.
I don't think he's ever been ridiculous while playing on the same stage.
Not sure if I agree with what you say here. "They" (RS, I believe you mean?) don't underrate Mark (or Gilmour) because of technical ability, but rather they try to measure how influential and innovative the guitarists are or have been. I mean, Keith Richards is number 4 ...
And neither is Mark underrated because he plays with his fingers. Other fingerstyle players are ranked higher, for instance Derek Trucks at #16.
I think the list is OK IF you consider the fact that it is NOT a ranking based on technical ability.
For me the bottom line is this: Does the guitar player (or musician) move you? They can be highly revered or unknown, technically good or bad, but if their playing strikes a chord (no pun intended) in your soul, then that's the player who's best for you. And this is why I have loved Mark's playing all these years. His tone, taste, ability to squeeze out emotions of that fretboard in a way that other more technically skilled guitarist only can dream of. And he can do that with three notes ... I might not be crazy about everything he does musically these days, but when he's on form, he's among my absolute favorites.
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so what? who cares?
enough to write 3 pages about this! ;D
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so what? who cares?
enough to write 3 pages about this! ;D
True but you know, tour is over ...
I'd prefer discuss of next show but I'm afraid I have to kill time before it happens. :-[
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Nothing wrong in discussing this though? I even think it's useful to have a rational discussion on what is meant by or makes a "good musician".
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Nothing wrong at all ;)
Very educational post
I like it
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(...) Then again, I believe one's playing style very often reflects one's personality, and Tommy is just a totally crazy livewire, like Chet Atkins with ADHD and on speed. He just can't hold it back. Although he should ...
I think you nailed it here. Chet Atkins with ADHD ;D Fits so well to Tommy!
It's important to note that technical ability is often associated only with speed, that is if you can fire off 10000 notes per second you would often be considered "technical wizard", whereas it is not only speed that is the challenge but also accuracy and ability to stretch your fingers to reach odd notes within one chord for example. Tommy has all of that but so does Mark. Fingerstyle technique is indeed a great test for guitarists because you have to be all members of the band simultaneously :) Great fun too, if you nail the basics.
Nothing wrong at all ;)
Very educational post
I like it
Agree!
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Nothing wrong at all! That's what discussion forums are for.
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It's important to note that technical ability is often associated only with speed, that is if you can fire off 10000 notes per second you would often be considered "technical wizard", whereas it is not only speed that is the challenge but also accuracy and ability to stretch your fingers to reach odd notes within one chord for example.
Absolutely. Technique is just a tool that makes it easier to epxress what it's in your head on your instrument. I don't have time now, but maybe I'll post some videos of soul-less technique monsters vs. technique-less soul monsters.
Fingerstyle technique is indeed a great test for guitarists because you have to be all members of the band simultaneously :) Great fun too, if you nail the basics.
Fingerstyle all the way, man. It has it's limits, though. I played bluegrass for a long time, and then you have to use a flatpick. I guess also for psycho-speed thrash metal fingerpicking would be a bit out of place. But for anything else, fingerstyle works well. Plus it's so cool to suddenly do a chord run WITH a bass line simultaneously. Forget that if you play with a pick alone!
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I must admit that I (no clue of guitar technique at all) prefer a nice and good tone over some technique showing-off kind of guitar playing, and it is Mark's tone that I like most... It is a part of my life, like a very good friend or more, beloved family member. He hasn't lost it until today, although there have been times in his career when he tried other things but he still has the "touch". So I loove this new solo on Forever Young because it has so much of that unique Knopfler sound, it could have come from the Communiqu
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It's important to note that technical ability is often associated only with speed, that is if you can fire off 10000 notes per second you would often be considered "technical wizard", whereas it is not only speed that is the challenge but also accuracy and ability to stretch your fingers to reach odd notes within one chord for example.
totally agree, I've always found easier to play lead licks ala Hendrix, SRV or Mark than Andy Summers chords.
It's the electric guitar paradox : when you play Hey joe, Sultans, or Smoke on the Water, you can make a better impression to the crowd than if you play Bring on the night or Message in the bottle.
I can play the first ones (well...sort of), but didn't ever managed to the seconds
At my wedding, I have played guitar behind my head, just to make the show, and eveyone said : "wow, you're great !" :D
but of course not, at the time I even couldn't play Roxanne properly :-[ which is considered as a "basic" guitar tune, but believe me, if you want to play the right cords, it's not as simple as it seems :(
Fingerstyle all the way, man. It has it's limits, though
of course, it all depends on the style you want to play
one advantage of finger picking I like very much : you can play 2 "discontinued" strings at the same time (e.g. for the Nashwille scale)
But what I miss the more : power, and screaming notes ala SRV or Gilmour. then you need a pick
And if you want funky rhythm, you need it too
e.g. the wha part on wag the dog is played (by Mark I guess) with a pick to have this scat-scat thing
Some players have solved the problem : they played pick and fingers at the same time (Atkins, Lee, Oldfield...)
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If mark dies he will climb to the top 20 automatically, so Its better now
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I think Marks strength has always been blowing people away with inventive, tasteful licks that always fit the context and emotion of the song. The fact that the songs are brilliant doesn't hurt.
Although I think Jackal is a tad harsh. Back in the early eighties there wouldn't be many that could play Sultans in the unique way it was played live. Sure there would be dozens of gun country players who could play as fast using the chordal technique, but I think the uniqueness really does push his "technical" ability a little higher.
Btw, I love your take on Tommy E, he is a livewire wizard that's awesome to watch and boring to listen to. His technical ability is second to none.
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I think Marks strength has always been blowing people away with inventive, tasteful licks that always fit the context and emotion of the song. The fact that the songs are brilliant doesn't hurt.
Although I think Jackal is a tad harsh. Back in the early eighties there wouldn't be many that could play Sultans in the unique way it was played live. Sure there would be dozens of gun country players who could play as fast using the chordal technique, but I think the uniqueness really does push his "technical" ability a little higher.
Btw, I love your take on Tommy E, he is a livewire wizard that's awesome to watch and boring to listen to. His technical ability is second to none.
Agree 100% with your first sentence. Maybe I was a bit harsh - I'm open for correction and discussion :) But I guess the main reason I said it was to show that there are other players between him and those at the very very top technically, but that he still should get a high overall score. Exactly where he should be ranked on each criterion doesn't really matter. At any rate, I was delighted to see the revival his guitar playing has had during this tour. I hope the new album will be full of beautiful licks, rich and lush tones and wonderful tunes. He's still got it.
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Now that is a topic! (I must have said this thing for at least 10 topics, but still,,,)
Well I dare say that these polls are worthless. In any aspect, but one: I only look at these lists to discover any guitarists that I am not aware of already. Apart from the usual suspects, guitar heroes and gods(EC, has lost his deity status long ago), I think that the rest are there for reasons that are a bit beyond us.
The "contemporary" factor is very important. Q have voted Radiohead 's "OK computer" the most important record in history, a couple of years after its release, and Johnny Greenwood was the new guitar hero, included in every guitarist poll. Any spot of him now, in the new Radiohead records
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The new tone (unique sound) is something that easily catches the tired ear of the old magazine poll-voter. But many times it is nothing more than "fireworks", a lucky turn of the knob in the amp that did the trick. Edge surely knows about this! ;) But of course if there are fine compositions that fit this new sound, it is fine by me. U2, up to Achtung baby, produced at least 4 great albums! And even before them, Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, Jimmy Page, Peter Green, Pete Townshed, Jimi Hendrix, and many others built a career because they were there to use all the technical innovations for guitars, in popular songs. Yes, most of them had the touch as well, but what made them guitar heroes was the combination of the two. The LUCK factor.
Kurt Cobain, is the obvious example, that these polls are worthless. No matter how influential he is, we have to consider why he has become so. I believe that most of Nirvana records were well marketed products, with a bit of the punk ethics that appeal to the young fan base that back in the early nineties were the big consumer target group. Nevermind have some catchy tunes, but apart from that nothing else to show. It is not even their best record! Grunge was the hip thing then, and Cobain's suicide in a way, fulfilled in the minds of the fans the rebellious nature of the musician and his music. Of course all this has nothing to do with the actual music or his skill as a guitarist.
Neil Young (someone mentioned him, as not being that good) is a genius of a guitarist. His time swifts and peculiar pitch is one of a kind. And he is so unique that few can actually imitate him, but since he has sold so much he is influential. Even Kurt quoted him in his suicide note, with a line from "Hey hey, my my", which actually mentioned Johnny Rotten. How about this connection .
When Mark Knopfler stepped in, the rock world was full of guitar heroes, and since punk was well on, guitar anti-heroes. (Who voted for Steve Jones? almost nobody) However his finger picking style was unique but not easily copied. It is a peculiar thing, but the classical guitarists that can actually play fluently all the finger picking style of MK, are somehow snobbish towards Rock music, and only lately, the boundaries between classical and rock music are erased. So yes I do expect many guitarists can play like MK, who actually treats his guitar as a guitar and not like another stringed instrument. Don't get me wrong, I like more technical guitarists, but in a more logical sphere. You might say for Vai "wow, how did he do that" but with MK you just don't care.
I never spotted (maybe because these polls are for rock guitarists) Harvey Mandel, or Larry Coryell or Steve Kahn, Larry Carlton. They have great technical ability, played in many records as session players and have their own followers as well. But they never sold that good, because they were jazz, or too near jazz. John McLaughlin usually makes it, though. Maybe that is the answer for Robert Johnson being so down in the poll, who admittedly has been influencing guitarists for 3 quarters of a century and Django Reinhardt. If MK was the one to suggest the Reinhardt music in "Metroland"OST, an extra bravo.
As for grading systems, I don't see the point. I mean, it is enjoyable to see technical guitarists on stage, but when it comes to recordings, you must have a good composition to lay the guitar. Or at least a fitting one. Listen to Vai playing at Zappa's records and you will know what I mean. By the way was Zappa included?
And yes the Andy Summers example was very good. I guess the same goes for Adrian Belew and Robert Fripp.
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I guess the problem with this poll is that it includes a few jazz and blues guitarists on a 'rock' guitarist poll..out of respect for the likes of Robert Johnson, Buddy Guy, B.B.King, Les Paul, T-Bone Walker, Muddy Waters..and a few others..without taking into account that it is omitting greats in those genres..the likes of Al Dimeola..Django Reinhardt..Larry Coryell (saw him live with Eleventh House way back when...great show!)...Roy Buchanan (can't believe he was left off!). And yes..Frank was on the list...but too far back to even mention...waay below where he deserved to be.
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The fact is MK is not the best guitarist and who is he ???, but he has the privilege to be recognizable between one thousand, have a feeling and a sense of the exceptional melodie and especially to be a rare of very big guitarist who composes the musics which had and continues has to make him famous and so unique.
A lot of great guitarists has been famous with a cover songs or they never wrote an album.
Music and guitar's love are not a competitition but this classification is strange and not very fair.
I'm very objective about the music and the guitarists but for example neither EC or David Gilmour can not carry me as Mark during a concert..
Just point of view.
regards.
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da knopf has a shared number 1 spot in my book (guess who the other numero uno is...)
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da knopf has a shared number 1 spot in my book (guess who the other numero uno is...)
For sure it can't be Gavid Dilmour.
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da knopf has a shared number 1 spot in my book (guess who the other numero uno is...)
For sure it can't be Gavid Dilmour.
for sure it is (as ze germans would say...for sure!)
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I guess also for psycho-speed thrash metal fingerpicking would be a bit out of place.
I have a french itw from 80. The journalist plays some tunes to Mark and ask him if he like :
EC's dobro slide on give me strengh, JJ Cale and Ry Cooder tunes.
Of course Mark obviously like it.
But then comes a Ted Nugent's tune. And Mark replies something like "No I don't like it, it's finger picking, but its sound too fat to my taste, don't you have other JJ ? " ;D
It's funny because if you think of some years later when MFN became THE Dire Straits hit, it was all the opposite of Mark liked in early 80ies.
And during the "pensa era", his tone on Heavy fuel, Calling Elvis, New Orleans, or YAYF, was more in the distorted way
Of course, it was far from Ted Nugent, but it was also far from Cooder or JJ Cale
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Can you share that interview on the tracker JF?
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I love fingerpicking for overdriven or distorted riff-based tunes like Money For Nothing. I was thinking more about shredding. Quite difficult to shred playing with your fingers.
By the way, shredding, fusion and similar styles are the probably the least interesting guitar music for me. But I must say there are some guys that I find pretty cool, Guthrie Gowan for example. He can really play anything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53B0gjU1vvc&feature=related
There's also a clip on YT from a Suhr seminar where an ambulance is passing by and then Guthrie suddenly emulates the sirenes. Hilarious.
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As people have been talking about the pick/fingerpick thing, here is a short interview with the great Mike Oldfield talking about his technique.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddVBGVI_hgA
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Can you share that interview on the tracker JF?
I've forgot to specify : it's a paper itw, and of course in french, but I can scan it and post it here. I'll try soon :)
I guess it's from mid-late 80 because the journalist is asking Mark about his "new" schecter guitars he uses on his latest album MM :P
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As people have been talking about the pick/fingerpick thing
I think there are several styles of picking/flatpicking :
- Guitarists who are playing only with fingers :
Ry Cooder (mostly in the MK fingerstyle)
Robbie Krieger (classical -spanish-flamenco-style, but adapted to electric guitar)
Jeff Beck (just for know of course, since he played with a pick during a long time, till mid 80 I guess)
a lot of blues players, mainly with thumb and index (JL Hooker, Muddy Waters, Albert King, Son House, etc...)
- Guitarists who are playing some entire songs with fingers, and some entire songs with a pick :
Eric Clapton (since few years for fingers)
David Gilmour (fingers on Cluster one, and on the tune with the Gretsch on Remember that night)
Even Hendrix used finger picking (ala JL Hooker): Midnight Lightning
- Guitarists who are playing some parts with fingers, some parts with pick (I mean both styles in a same song)
Mike oldfield (custom technique for fingers, and pick in the mouth or hidden in the palm e.g. Tubular bells II live)
Chris Rea (the pick is in a little adhesive plate above the PUs : http://www.volubilis.net/concerts/chris_rea_2006/chris_rea_2006032_01.php (http://www.volubilis.net/concerts/chris_rea_2006/chris_rea_2006032_01.php))
Mick Taylor (mainly fingers for slide and pick for fret, but not always : http://www.micktaylor.net/Mvc-173f%20copy.gif (http://www.micktaylor.net/Mvc-173f%20copy.gif))
Duane Allman (idem : http://jasobrecht.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Duane-allman.jpg (http://jasobrecht.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Duane-allman.jpg))
Brian May (rarely, but at the end of the Bohemian Rhapsody clip, you can see him just touching a string by his finger at 5:14 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ9rUzIMcZQ&ob=av3n (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ9rUzIMcZQ&ob=av3n))
- Guitarists who are playing fingers and pick at the same time :
Albert Lee
Steve Howe
Chet Atkins (ok, it's not a "pick" but an "onglet" as we call it in french, I didn't find the english word :-[)
Tommy Emmanuel (idem)
Freddie King (several "onglets")
Jimmy page (not often, but sometimes he uses his right ring and pinkie to pick the high strings, and I must admit I do the same :P)
- Guitarists who are playing only with a pick :
I think there are few guitarists who have played ONLY with a pick
all guitarist has at least one or few times used his fingers for some songs, or at least at home, even if he is a well known flat-pick player : SRV, Santana, Richards....
Of course the liste isn't exhaustive, but it was just to give some examples :)
Edit : MK, it depends..... ;)
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I would put Steve Howe into the 4th category, because he plays with a pick and then uses his 2nd and 3rd fingers for picking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KN2qvtosmM
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I would put Steve Howe into the 4th category, because he plays with a pick and then uses his 2nd and 3rd fingers for picking.
Yes you are right :)
Si I edited my previous post ;)
And I must admit I've done another mistake about........MK :-[
he should be in the third category :
In 1980 on News (e.g. Dortmund) he played the first part with fingers and the final part (which later became Private Investigations) with a pick
Also in 2001, on Speedway, he played the acoustic part with a pick, and the final solo with fingers
Another special thing about Mark is that sometimes, he's doing a "virtual" pick with his nail, e.g :
( if you look at Ingo's videos, he's doing often the same ;) http://www.youtube.com/user/IngoRaven#p/a/u/0/9EBaFRKD-Ec (http://www.youtube.com/user/IngoRaven#p/a/u/0/9EBaFRKD-Ec))
- first part of Tunnel of love (you can see it on Alchemy)
- last power chords on Money for nothing (you can see it on Live aid or Wembley 85)
- intro on So far away in 2001, 2005, and 2010
in 1985 he played only with fingers, while J. Sonni did the intro
in 2006 he played the entire song with a pick, ala H. Marvin
in 2008 he seems to play with pick and fingers at the same time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lPprRltS9s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAh4CmTdGKk&feature=related
so he should be also in the 4th category :D
well maybe should I create a special category only for MK ;D
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...it's all in the fingers....
there's Davey G. and there's Marky....then it is quite for a long time...
I am not very much into Pink Floyd/David Gilmour, but every now and then, when Another Brick In The Wall is played is played on radio, I must admit that this is the greatest guitar solo I can think of. I am not sure if Mark has done something similar... It is really perfect, the best possible and coolest Strat sound there is. I am just talking about this solo at the end. I know all from Mark of course, and Sultans is the better song with much better guitar work over all, but the solo... hmmm. Maybe Mark's solo on Expresso Love on Alchemy comes to mind, similiar in it's perfection, but otherwise...
It was just that the song was played again a few minutes ago, made me think of this thread again. ;D
LE
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dude, this is why....
got 22 min to spare??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thwwd3S9rmA
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gives me the same shivers those gazillion forever young video's do.
watch out for the part as of..
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4:19
and..
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6:37, omg, gone to heaven and died,.... ;D ;D
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10 and everthig after
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13:25 my favorite part...
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the part where it all breakes loose and the lasers blast away is where i literarely cried, and i have seen it a gazillion times.
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And by logical deduction, my dear Dr Watson, we arrive at the conclusion that Pottel has a strong affinity for, no, is obsessed with Pink Floyd.
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the part where it all breakes loose and the lasers blast away is where i literarely cried, and i have seen it a gazillion times.
...by chance two separate glances meet, and i am you and what i see is me...
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They should have never dropped the suit against Webber..that six-chord progression was sooooo ripped off. Imho of course. ;)
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And by logical deduction, my dear Dr Watson, we arrive at the conclusion that Pottel has a strong affinity for, no, is obsessed with Pink Floyd.
yep. they rule. and i am a gilmour man rather then a wates man. still got a few hundred GB of the man though...
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And by logical deduction, my dear Dr Watson, we arrive at the conclusion that Pottel has a strong affinity for, no, is obsessed with Pink Floyd.
yep. they rule. and i am a gilmour man rather then a wates man. still got a few hundred GB of the man though...
Who is that Roger you're talking about ?
thanks for the 22 minutes. ;D
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it is really perfect, the best possible and coolest Strat sound there is
In fact, the solo is played on a Les paul Goldtop with P90 Pickups :)
http://www.gilmourish.com/?page_id=901 (http://www.gilmourish.com/?page_id=901)
for a long Time I've thought that this solo was played on strat with the neck PU, but it's indeed a Les Paul.
live 80, David played it sometimes, and sometimes on the black strat
Note that P90 PU are between single coils PU (like on most fender guitars) and humbuckers (like on most Gibson guitars), so it's sort of "big" single coils PU. That's why it doesn't sound very much "iconic" Les Paul
more d
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LOL!
I knew when I wrote it that I maybe should check it first. :disbelief But for me, this is so much the perfect STRAT sound that I thought, naah, never another guitar... But who am I, I have no idea about guitars, better ask all our other gear heads around... :lol
LE
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try Cluster one from the division bell album, or Marooned from that same album, wait, here it is...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W6hBI1SAL4
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and that guitar my friends is strat "000001"
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omg, the partfrom 3:40 or something....aAAAAAHHHHH
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AND 4-:26
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Oh come on, let's not fool ourselves, the man is my second god, ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDC3ade3JxU&feature=related
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GOD=2
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damn, the end got to me again.......the brilliance...
think this quote says it all:
"David Gilmour can? do more with one note than many guitarists can do with the whole fretboard"-Dave Mustain
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GOD=2
Pottel, you are obviously totally obsessed with DG, so why isn't he God #1? ;D
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10 and everthig after
Sorry pottel, but when speaking of Echoes, I don't get it with this part, 10min. and after that
- 2,5 mins of "sounds", what in the world??
Yeah MK could have done that just to make Telegraph Road not 14:15 but 18min long!
Don't get it... Sounds to me as if they had to make an "art rock song", which of course cannot be short, so they recorded 2,5 mins of sounds just to be on the safe side. The solos and other parts are good, but if I wanna listen to "sounds" I can switch on a discovery channel whale documentary...
I like Shine on much much better, now that is a song!
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Pottel, your bug looks bigger. What happened?
LE
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GOD=2
Pottel, you are obviously totally obsessed with DG, so why isn't he God #1? ;D
god=2
meaning, i cannot decide between the 2
bobo, i cannot explain that, you either like/feel it or not.
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just keep in mind the songs is from 1970
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Gilmour is great, but it gets a bit too pompous for my taste. I'd love to hear Gilmour solo on lets say Telegraph Road, Ride Across the River or Once Upon a Time in the West.
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10 and everthig after
Sorry pottel, but when speaking of Echoes, I don't get it with this part, 10min. and after that
- 2,5 mins of "sounds", what in the world??
Yeah MK could have done that just to make Telegraph Road not 14:15 but 18min long!
Don't get it... Sounds to me as if they had to make an "art rock song", which of course cannot be short, so they recorded 2,5 mins of sounds just to be on the safe side. The solos and other parts are good, but if I wanna listen to "sounds" I can switch on a discovery channel whale documentary...
I like Shine on much much better, now that is a song!
Meddle, (the album from which original "Echoes" come from), was a transition album. Many things have been written about it, but fact is that the sound in this album has as much to do with their previous recordings, but even more and for the first time there are obvious hints for the sound of the future, "Dark side of the moon" onwards. The heavy shadow of Syd was almost out of the picture, and the dominance of Waters was yet to come. What's more, it was a time when the band after having recorded experimental records, with admittedly great unexpected success (I guess albums like Ummagumma or even Atom heart mother, are "hard nuts to break" even with today's standards) and away from their heart's desire, to make music more to the point, even "pop", were free to define their future moves without fear. Anyway, they went back to the studio with no new compositions, just a riff or two and a couple of ideas-each member (those days all members were contributing equally, well Mason less) . The pressure to record something quickly was obvious, and like a boiling pot, all the ingredients went in and something completely new and magical came out. Echoes must be 20 or so ideas stitched together to make this opus. And believe me it is an epic song that works. Even the peculiar sounds (one of the ideas, it is more obvious how and why it works at the "live in Pompeii"), are fantastic, but should be heard in the context, like a classical piece of music, and not dissected and examined separately. You should also take into account that at the same time, most of their recorded output was for films, and that might explain many of the "sound-scape".
(I would certainly recommend listening to the "More" OST. Fantastic! Contains Cympaline, the Nile song and Cirrus minor, all top notch songs that work even without the film, a thing I can say about the "Zabriskie point" compositions. )
As for WHALES, you should give a try to this Judy Collins song. It is magical!
http://youtu.be/qV29xK2xyZ4
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i would also prefer the awesome " La Vall
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and then there's this little ditty:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWYVJ4hpRwI
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maybe this is the better version of "marrooned"
only played live 3 times, two of which were in Norway, as a protest against the state sponsored whale fishing there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqpPQNcJkrU
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Which version is it ? Can't watch - am at work. But I can comment if it's the bootleggin' the bootleggers one. I prefer the fender anniversary but all are great.
Like Marbletown, I like EVERYTHING.
I know what I'm gonna watch a couple of times tonight.
Pottel, you shouldn't put two many DG links. ::)
It distracts me a lot. 8)
I must focus on MK. ;D
Soon. Maybe sooner. ;)
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maybe this is the better version of "marrooned"
Time to get the crystals out and practice some transcendental meditation ...
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maybe this is the better version of "marrooned"
Time to get the crystals out and practice some transcendental meditation ...
No, no Jackal. PF are rumored to produce great music to have sex with. I mean having sex with another person while listening to it, not with the music. ;D
Now that I come to think of it, masturbating is having sex with someone you love, so it could mean various things as well. ;D
Joke aside,"Marooned" is not for meditation, but diving into music, into the sound! I dare say that MK's music lately, does not work on this level, so DG it is, even 20 years later. I used to listen to Division bell, all the time during my service in the army, it was liberating and dreamy stuff. So yes, transcendental but hardly meditation. ;)
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Now that I come to think of it, masturbating is having sex with someone you love, so it could mean various things as well. ;D
Is that what Getting the Crystals out mean?
I didn't know!
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Now that I come to think of it, masturbating is having sex with someone you love, so it could mean various things as well. ;D
Is that what Getting the Crystals out mean?
I didn't know!
Replying to such a comment without sounding too cheese, is hard. You have to say something smart.
Something smart. ;D
Actually, not to take credit for the masturbation joke, it is all Woody Allen! ;)
As for the crystals, no I think that they refer to them as jewels - and the pan is : polishing the jewels. No, it smells cheese all the way. Sorry.
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This thread suddenly took a very different turn ...
Maybe the music is not for meditation per se, but it is very New Age like. Especially with the visuals and the sound of the whales. New Age folks love that - sounds of whales and dolphins and swooshing synthesizers.
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This thread suddenly took a very different turn ...
You're welcome ;D
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This thread suddenly took a very different turn ...
Maybe the music is not for meditation per se, but it is very New Age like. Especially with the visuals and the sound of the whales. New Age folks love that - sounds of whales and dolphins and swooshing synthesizers.
Jackal, I see the resemblance, with one minor difference. New age music generally, is boring, while this is a fine piece of music. But it is all a matter of taste.
After all Whales are too old (almost ancient) creatures to mix up with New Age ;D . Did you see the Judy Collins video I posted: http://youtu.be/21vlugbhSF4
Originally recorded in the 60ies, way before the term New Age was in use. ::)
And all this talk, in between breaks, while I clean the house, with Led Zeppelin I+II loud as hell.
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maybe this is the better version of "marrooned"
Time to get the crystals out and practice some transcendental meditation ...
No, no Jackal. PF are rumored to produce great music to have sex with. I mean having sex with another person while listening to it, not with the music. ;D
Now that I come to think of it, masturbating is having sex with someone you love, so it could mean various things as well. ;D
Joke aside,"Marooned" is not for meditation, but diving into music, into the sound! I dare say that MK's music lately, does not work on this level, so DG it is, even 20 years later. I used to listen to Division bell, all the time during my service in the army, it was liberating and dreamy stuff. So yes, transcendental but hardly meditation. ;)
Same for me. I mean for the service in the army part.
The Division Bell CD was the only interesting thing to buy in the barracks. Lost in the middle of a huge selection of medals and flags...
When I think of that period of my life -what a waste of time ! -, the Division bell is the only positive thing I can remember.
That and maybe hunting wasp nests.
First day, captain said to me : "you're good at mathematics, you're gonna be a waiter." :disbelief
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Ritchie Blackmore is the greatest guitarist ever...........(along with MK of course). They should share number 1! ;D
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I may be completely wrong, but I get the feeling that PF/DG appeals much more to males than females. To be honest, I find it all a bit boring and samey after a while. Sorry guys! :o
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pffft. girls.... ::)
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Ritchie Blackmore is the greatest guitarist ever...........(along with MK of course). They should share number 1! ;D
in my top 10 to 15 for sure, but not sharing numero uno with MK (or DG) :-)
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pffft. girls.... ::)
:lol You know you love us really! ;D
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Tunnel85, there was a similar joke in our armed forces back then. First day the captain asks for previous work experience to assign duties in the barracks. One young fellow sure that he can skip all heavy duties, claims being a disc jockey. Captain says, OK you'll be dealing with discs (trays, same word in Greek) in the kitchen!
Joke aside army is a waste of time and opportunity to learn something useful other than killing people, (it comes very handy at times :lol ) but unfortunately Greece has too many neighbors as enemies, and actually we were in such a spot 15 years ago, with Turkey, and on constant alert 24 Hours a day for 6 months, in the barracks! PF saved someone's life, and kept me sane. ;)
Ritchie Blackmore is the greatest guitarist ever...........(along with MK of course). They should share number 1! ;D
ferguitar, Richie is on top of the hill along with every other guitarist on earth. Maybe that is why no good politicians are allowed there, no spot left vacant. What's the matter?
I may be completely wrong, but I get the feeling that PF/DG appeals much more to males than females. To be honest, I find it all a bit boring and samey after a while. Sorry guys! :o
Yes DG is more "masculine" guitar player than any other. Wait, no, quite the opposite, that is why he appeals to male audience. Oh, I don't know, and I don't really get the male/female thing when it comes to music. Maybe it has something to do with logic and sentiments and this being a logical music, then again it is so logical it has come to analyze and replicate the sentimental nature of music so well, there is no difference. After all we are not 17 anymore. Girls used to like Metallica and Guns 'n' roses, and guys did too. But some analysts (for commercials as well) say that girls like what guys like in order to get into their world, and actually buy the product, but I don't think that way, and I could go on rambling like that, since I just put on some Oxygene by the exquisite Jen Michel Jarre. Fantastic electronic music. Someone said new age and triggered that. :lol
Yes it is a love thing after all. Love for the music. ;) And I adore Joni Mitchell, she is a gal, right? ;D (joke aside her Blue album is amongst my top 10 ever!)
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I have not listened a lot to Pink Floyd, but my impression is that they are on balance very dark and sinister and as far as I know they don't have any romantic songs. Mark on the other hand creates music which is romantic (not in that cheesy sense, except Hand in Hand (and Romeo ...)), has humor in it and is far lighter than PF. Not strange why women would prefer Mark's music over Gilmour's. Their personalities too are very different. Gilmour seems to be a very nice guy, but there is something dark about him.
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Waters lyrics are to blame! Gilmour is a very gentle, glowing person, radiating warmth and happiness. (over the top there, but I sort of get this from him. Waters on the other hand is the dark genious you discribe.) I guess it has something to do with their Britishness. MK somehow is more of what you say. (maybe because his parents were from the continent, or because he grew up in Newcastle) Jackal you should listen to their Syd album. Completely different!
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However, I do rate Gilmour as a guitarist and I would place him at #2 on my list.
Of course this is about guitarists, but I find his rather high-pitched voice a bit cold and lacking in tone as opposed to MK's voice, which is beautifully warm, sexy and very comforting! :P
VGONIS - Only MK's father is from the continent (Hungary), his mother is a Geordie, born and bred! :)
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So the wit and sense of humour came from his father, eh? ;D
I am rather a British humour fan. American humour seems very attached to bodily functions and sounds, nothing brainy, nothing spiritual. And you have so many actors, musicians and comedians to give to the american cinema and arenas and still keep the best for your own purposes. :) I like!
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Maybe the humor comes from Mark's father's Jewish background. Jewish humor is quite unique, I'd like to think.
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GOD=2
:disbelief
I'm monotheist...ther 's only One God. No number two or tird....only One God: MK ;D
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GOD=2
:disbelief
I'm monotheist...ther 's only One God. No number two or tird....only One God: MK ;D
Only one God, three persons. They've solved the problem two thousands years ago. 8)
Even EC has his place in the scheme. ;D
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GOD=2
:disbelief
I'm monotheist...ther 's only One God. No number two or tird....only One God: MK ;D
Only one God, three persons. They've solved the problem two thousands years ago. 8)
Even EC has his place in the scheme. ;D
And for those that want more, because more is better (the merrier ...) there is the 12 gods of Olympus and around 50 semi-gods, 4000 years old. Maybe Rolling Stone had this in mind when they did the poll!
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Pink Floyd was at first a psychedelic rock band (Barett era), and then evolved to a progressive rock band.
the progressive rock concept was to write songs more in the classical idea with complex structures, movements, and not only chorus/verses. It was influence by "concrete" music (Stockausen, J. Cage, P. Boulez...) and tried to recreate sensations, ideas, concepts.
Of course, it sometimes became too pompos as Jackal said, but unlike most progressive bands (Genesis, Yes, King Crimson...) PF wrote songs with a more "rock" feeling, and mainly because DG brought his blues roots.
PF songs are "long", "epic", "complex", "strange" and "simple", "rock", "groovy" at the same time....well Bjorn explains this far better than me on his wonderful site http://www.gilmourish.com/ (http://www.gilmourish.com/) It's obviously a guitarist site, but not only, many articles are about the music, the feeling brought by PF songs
More than "progressive rock", PF music was called "space rock" (by the way, watching the end of Kubrick's 2001 space odyssey, while listen to Echoes is a worth experience), and of course many songs are full of "ambiant sounds".
That's why a long part of Echoes is not very "musical" but more ambiant (like on Dogs or many overs).
- 2,5 mins of "sounds", what in the world??
Why "music" should always be melody, chords and lyrics ? Why music could'nt be sometimes "just" sounds....
and believe me, if you listen to Stockausen, J. Cage, P. Boulez...or even some ummagumma tracks, you will find that this part of Echoes is a FM tune :D
And this is not about Whales.....sounds David create with his reverse wha are called "seagull effects" (note that the lyrics of the first verse are about "albatros")
That's a big difference between DG and MK : Gilmour has always experimented with sounds, he tried to create sounds that are not commun with a guitar, mainly beacuse he was influenced by Hendrix (did i say that he was my ex-aequo 2nd fav guitarist ? ;))
But on the other hand, I agree that Gilmour is "just" a guitarist while Mark is a complete musician, a songwriter, and a fantastic guitarist too :)
I remember reading on MK news (yes old times...) a DG itw where he said that he was a MK fan, loved Marks' solos, and said he wouldn't be able to play it like him :)
I've never read such words from Mark about David :(
LOL!
I knew when I wrote it that I maybe should check it first. Disbelief But for me, this is so much the perfect STRAT sound that I thought, naah, never another guitar... But who am I, I have no idea about guitars, better ask all our other gear heads around... Laughing
LE
Yes LE, I agree it does sound like a strat ;D
I was thinking the same when listening to the "little ditty" posted by Pottel : at first I thought it was a strat, until I saw the LP !
And with fingers...... David and Mark...not so different.....but very different too ;D
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[quote author=Jean-Fran
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also jean-francois,
i more then often mentioned floyd or Gilmour on Guy'S forum, and i remember there was always a big admiration from MK side too.
By the way, i think it was our very own Marky49 who bumped into mr. Gilmour on the stairs in the RAH during the (i believe) 2008 tour. so he is a "fan" :-)
what we do not know of course is what shows Mark goes to.
has anyone ever read/heard anything about what concerts mark went too (and i do not mean his time as a reporter!) i mean, nowadays...
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By the way Pottel, I didn't find the itw I was talking about, well just a piece of.
You know, when I was a teenie, I used to make somme "collages" with DS pics and itws, and only pieces have survived :(
Yes I know, I should have keep all entire magazines :(
so I managed to find this :
- an itw from Best -1980 where Mark talk about his new schecter guitars (used on MM)
- about the itw where the journalist play some songs to mark, I have only the numbers 12 and 13, but I remember there was some JJ Cale, EC's give me strength, and Ted Nugent. It's also from Best, but I guess in 1982 or 1983, not sure.
I tried to join it, hope it's ok
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here's the second one, because I didn't managed to join the two in one post (although each file is 112 ko, and it's allowed 4 per post ???)
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Very cool! I don't know French, but I think I got the gist of it. Very cool that Mark was asked to comment on different songs. Am I right that he was completely indifferent regarding Van Halen's technical playing?
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Yes jackal you're right
the translation of the part about Van halen is something like that :
"technically it is very developed, but it's the kind of thing that leaves me totally indifferent. I understand that it impresses other people, but in terms of sensitivity that leaves me cold. you have no other JJ?"
and the part about Cooder :
"It is Ry, he is inimitable, he is one of the guitarists I like most with JJ, he is capable of anything with a guitar but he has mainly a prodigious sense of feeling. More, what he does looks simple as it is so natural that it looks obvious, and yet it is not that easy, it's technically very hard to do because it is an hypersensitive approach "
Yes I confess I use google translation ; I know it's not always good, but I guess you get the whole idea.
If someone want to translate the 80 itw ..... ::)
I'll try maybe tomorrow :P
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thnx Jean Francois!
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I wonder if Mk ever commented about Ritchie Blackmore or Deep Purple? ??? Anyone knows???
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I wonder if Mk ever commented about Ritchie Blackmore or Deep Purple? ??? Anyone knows???
ferguitar, I looked it up, found no results, but came up with this. Very interesting, if you can spare 2 minutes.
http://bforgillanfansonly.runboard.com/t70638,offset=0
Purple fans talking about Mark!And Dylan!
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And a fan that actually calls himself "Knopflersfingers". All in a Purple forum!
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And a fan that actually calls himself "Knopflersfingers". All in a Purple forum!
Guess who is this Knopflerfingers ;D
I already googled a lot about this, found nothing. Theres a quote about RB talking about MK. Ritchies is know for not using the midle pick up, he says thats the sound MK gets....he says its too thin.........lol. He says MK is a fine guitarist though. anyway, Ritchie is Ritchie, know for widding up journos.......in every interview he "change" his mind. ;D
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Of course this is about guitarists, but I find his rather high-pitched voice a bit cold and lacking in tone as opposed to MK's voice, which is beautifully warm, sexy and very comforting! :P
Mark's voice is more suitable for single vocal
Gilmour's voice is great for vocal harmonies.
His singing together with Wright on Echoes is wonderful, and on Breathe, he's harmonising with himself ! he sings all vocals on this tune
I know that Mark did the same on Shangri-La, but I think he couldn't do these kind of vocal harmonies which bring songs to ethereal level.
Gilmour has a wider range of singing : from "soft" and "sweet" (fat old sun, green is the colour....) to more rock (young lust, not now john...)
Well.....I don't want to give the impression that I prefer Gilmour...because it's not the case ;)
But.....wouldn't it be nice if Mark would release such boxsets as PF or Gilmour ? :P
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Wouldn't it be fantastic if they performed together? Gilmour ad Knopfler, that would be a dream come true and certainly a sold out tour. They can choose the more blues based songs from the PF canon, and the most spaced out from DS's. Think twin lead guitars on Shine on or telegraph road!(and my all time favourite, It never rains. The idea only sends me to the cupboard for some soothing tea, to calm my ... nerves.
Their very sort get together for the French and Saunders show (with Gary Moore and Lemmy and all the rest) was so unexpectedly thrilling, imagine them on a whole tour.
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[quote author=Jean-Fran
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same song here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvMNuuFSvN0
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got it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bQi5R7TfUY (Bad quality recording though)
also not bad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPXWKO-EBgc
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same song here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvMNuuFSvN0
I have this concert from The Royal Festival Hall - Robert Wyatt's Meltdown, also the Gdansk concert! Of course he has a good singing voice, no doubt about that. I was just comparing his high voice to MK's nice warm one, that's all! ;)
Actually, I always really enjoy watching this concert, it is much more to my taste than some of the big light and sound extravaganzas eg at Earl's Court - much more low-key. It's one of my favourites! :)
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For us we know he's no 1.... for others they will disagree. It's all subjective and there really is no such thing as a greatest guitarist in the world, it's ridiculous. We all have a favourite for sure. Take a look at some of the people who are below Knopfler on the list too, in reality it's just an opinion. Knopfler will always be the best to me but that's just because I love his Style and tone :)
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For us we know he's no 1.... for others they will disagree. It's all subjective and there really is no such thing as a greatest guitarist in the world, it's ridiculous. We all have a favourite for sure. Take a look at some of the people who are below Knopfler on the list too, in reality it's just an opinion. Knopfler will always be the best to me but that's just because I love his Style and tone :)
no you're wrong there Fordie. obviously Marky is the number one, and noone else comes near :-)
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For us we know he's no 1.... for others they will disagree. It's all subjective and there really is no such thing as a greatest guitarist in the world, it's ridiculous. We all have a favourite for sure. Take a look at some of the people who are below Knopfler on the list too, in reality it's just an opinion. Knopfler will always be the best to me but that's just because I love his Style and tone :)
no you're wrong there Fordie. obviously Marky is the number one, and noone else comes near :-)
Yep, you're right, I was having a mad moment there. Mark Knopfler IS the greatest guitarist of all time :)
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For us we know he's no 1.... for others they will disagree. It's all subjective and there really is no such thing as a greatest guitarist in the world, it's ridiculous. We all have a favourite for sure. Take a look at some of the people who are below Knopfler on the list too, in reality it's just an opinion. Knopfler will always be the best to me but that's just because I love his Style and tone :)
no you're wrong there Fordie. obviously Marky is the number one, and noone else comes near :-)
Yep, you're right, I was having a mad moment there. Mark Knopfler IS the greatest guitarist of all time :)
bless you my son...
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how about this supergroup, this song kills me everytime, and by the way Gilmour's solo reminds me sooooo much of Richards solo on "..." the ATRR album, i posted that to Guy and he sort of ignored it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wsb_ycpikp0
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how about this supergroup, this song kills me everytime, and by the way Gilmour's solo reminds me sooooo much of Richards solo on "..." the ATRR album, i posted that to Guy and he sort of ignored it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wsb_ycpikp0
The Cavern show had a much better atmosphere and ambience though - I could almost smell the inimitable aroma of sweat, cheap perfume, carbolic soap and leather! The memories came flooding back lol! I love Mick Green btw!
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Here is a great clip of Mike Oldfield showing both his amazing guitar playing and composing ability. it's not the best quality video, but you can get the idea. I personally think Oldfield would be better playing with Mark than Gilmour, even though I LOVE Gilmour's playing, I feel Mark and Mike would compliment each other better, a bit like Mark and Chet Atkins.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMap2mTrVu8
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try Cluster one from the division bell album, or Marooned from that same album, wait, here it is...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W6hBI1SAL4
am i the only one by the way to notice the great Phil Palmer on second guitar??
:-)
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besides the great (real) Phil Manzanera of course...
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try Cluster one from the division bell album, or Marooned from that same album, wait, here it is...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W6hBI1SAL4
am i the only one by the way to notice the great Phil Palmer on second guitar??
:-)
No :)
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Yeah noticed that, too. But I don't think he is soooo great.... lol
No Other Baby is a really beautiful song, a true gem. Thanks for reminding me. Wouldn't it be great if MK would cover this song? Imagine, I think it is a typical MK solo song... And Paul adds a real nice singing and voice to this classic...
I just saw that there is a song called "What It Is" on that Run Devil Run album. Never heard of it before. It is not so standard that MK uses a song name that already has been used, isn't it?
LE
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run devil run is from 1999...
knopfler is a thief :-)
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B004EZKRU0/ref=dm_mu_dp_trk10
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More proof of the similarity between Oldfield and Knopfler, check out the video below for Trick of The Light, it's from the mid 80's, check out the red Fender Strat Mike is playing, remind you of anyone? the fingerstyle playing, and the amazing solo from 2:49
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHRL4FkUq4M&feature=related
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"Solid Rock"? ::)
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More proof of the similarity between Oldfield and Knopfler, check out the video below for Trick of The Light, it's from the mid 80's, check out the red Fender Strat Mike is playing, remind you of anyone? the fingerstyle playing, and the amazing solo from 2:49
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHRL4FkUq4M&feature=related
Remind me of somenone ? Let's see...
Mike Oldfield, isn't he the guy wrote a book on Dire Straits ? ;D ;)
Barry Palmer reminds me of Phil Palmer. Brothers? Cousins ? Maybe not. :disbelief
I wish I could say that cute girl reminds me of someone. ;)
Don't see anything else
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Very funny ;D
Actually Mike Oldfield gave an interview once when he said he didn't listen to the radio or modern music, but he did say he liked Private Investigations :) and thought MK was a brilliant guitarist.
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Very funny ;D
Actually Mike Oldfield gave an interview once when he said he didn't listen to the radio or modern music, but he did say he liked Private Investigations :) and thought MK was a brilliant guitarist.
A brilliant guitarist ? Obviously Mike Oldfield doesn't work for Rolling Stone Magazine.
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lol, no he doesn't, he isn't just some nobody trying to sell a magazine, he is a genuine artist, who knows talent when he hear/sees it :lol
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Very funny ;D
Actually Mike Oldfield gave an interview once when he said he didn't listen to the radio or modern music, but he did say he liked Private Investigations :) and thought MK was a brilliant guitarist.
A brilliant guitarist ? Obviously Mike Oldfield doesn't work for Rolling Stone Magazine.
Lol, I hate best of lists at the best of times but surely a position of 40 something out of millions of amazing players in the world does equate to MK being a 'Brilliant' guitarist?
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I bring back this topic to light because I bought on sunday the french "rolling stone" magazine "Occasional release" "100 greatest guitarists".
Mark is #13 ! :) way better than #40 he was back then !
I must admit that I agree with almost 13 top of list (except for Van halen) :
1 : Jimi (compared to Bach and Mozart)
2 : EC
3 : Page
4: Keith Richards (named "the human riff")
5: Beck
6: Gilmour
7 : Berry
8 : Van Halen
9 : Townshend
10 : George Harrison
11 : BB King
12 : SRV
13 : MK
what I like on this edition, is:
- beside the 100, a list of "outsiders" : Hackett, Howe, Bert Jensch, Lindley...
- girls are not forgotten : Joni Mitchell, Chrissie Hynde, Joan Jett...
- nice (and lot of rare) pics
- short list of "representative" songs for each guitarist
- in the end of the mag : some iconic guitars, amps and stompboxes
the little article about Mark says something like that (sorry for the google translation) :
nickname : "sultan of swing"
"there's very few guitar soli that everybody can hum : among them the duel between Fleder and Walsh on Hotel California, and the one (however damn elaborate) by MK on Sultans. JJ Cale's spiritual son, the english guitarist has a recognizable tone. (...) Knopfler is one of the most fine guitarists, and maybe one of the less demonstrative of this last 3 decades, like some of his solo work ("Remembrance day" for example) easily prove it"
representative songs : tunnel, sultans, brothers
pic : live aid with the red schecter strat (so, on Sultans)
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Thanks JF! WOW, 13! this is a great leap. Of course the previous poll stated that it was for guitarists in general and another one I remember was for rock related. So they had Robert Johnson, Django Reinhart, Segovia etc. I still think that EC, Richards and Page (to name a few) are too high, and they have this place merely because they were pioneers with exquisite records, in the beginning of this rock era. Jimi, Gilmour, Knopfler, Green and Beck should really be in the 5 top places
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Thanks JF! WOW, 13! this is a great leap. Of course the previous poll stated that it was for guitarists in general and another one I remember was for rock related. So they had Robert Johnson, Django Reinhart, Segovia etc. I still think that EC, Richards and Page (to name a few) are too high, and they have this place merely because they were pioneers with exquisite records, in the beginning of this rock era. Jimi, Gilmour, Knopfler, Green and Beck should really be in the 5 top places
I agree and I disagree :)
It's always difficult to answer to the question : is this musician /artist a "reference" in his art ?
IMHO, an "important" artist is a one whom we can say : art has been different after him. The way to create art changed after him. He influenced other artists.
(I remember discussing this subject at the cinema University, about directors)
So, in our case, the question is : has the way of playing guitar changed after this or this guitarist ? Can we say there was guitar in rock music before him, and after him ? Has he influenced other guitarists ?
I like your term of "pioneers", it's exactly what can "describe" an "important" guitarist. If he is a "pionneer" in his category, it means that nobody else did what he did before him
Yes, you can find that EC has not "revolutionized" the way of playing guitar, such as Jimi or BB King ; but I think that we could say that he had a big influence on many guitarists after him, and I think we can say "there was guitar in the rock music before EC and after EC", I don't think he such to high.
K.Richard is THE rhtyhm rock guitarist IMHO, and I think he deserves his place. Rock riffs would never ahve been the same without him. Can we imagine that the Young brothers would have found all these riffs without listenig to K.Richards ?
Page is not only a great guitarist, he' also a great producer-arranger-composer. His guitar parts are very tastefull on many recordings, and I like how he blend the blues with prog and oriental music. His influence on many guitarists is obvious. As Louis Bertignac said about Page's solo on Since I've been loving you (recorded in one take in the studio corridor !) : "it's the first time I cried listening a guitar solo"...even if I didn't cry, it's indeed one my all time fav solo , and I think one of the best rock solos IMHO
I did'nt listen many Green recordings, so maybe my judgment is not valable, but I'd say that his influence is less obvious.
And , don't kill me, but I find that Mark is not such an "important" guitarist in rock music.
It's my favourite one, but it's not the same thing. I love his playing, his tone, but I don't think that he had a great influence on rock guitar "evolution"
I don't like Cobain or Johnny Marr, but I must admit that they had influence in rock music.
It's maybe a harsh statement, but I realized this, when I talk with family, friends, co-workers.... when I say "Dire Straits", everyboy says "ah yes, it's just this 80 band", and the only argument I have is that I love them, but in terms of "objective-musical-analysis", I think they can't suffer the comparaison with Dylan, Hendrix, beatles, Stones , Zappa (which I love) or with Bowie-The Cure-Nirvana-... (which I don't like), and I don't find examples to proove their impact and influence in rock history.
I think it's the same in terms of guitarists. Maybe it's a cliche, but hendrix-clapton-page-townshend-beck have always been in the top 5-10, and their influence makes no doubt IMHO.
I find fair that Beck is "above" Gilmour, as Gilmour always quoted Beck as a big influence for him, and Beck introduced new things, much more than Gilmour in term of playing, tone etc... but that's a different thing to say that I far prefer Gilmour than Beck (even I like Beck though)
I think (but I can be wrong) that your top 5, is the 5 you "like more", but not maybe the 5 you think are the "most important" ?
someones says that art is only subejective and about personnal taste, but I think that we can find some "objective" arguments sometimes.
that's why I try sometimes to say to myself that music-cinema-litterature-...that I like, can be just "low end" music-cinema-litterature, but it's not a problem, it's just what I like ! :)
well I think we discuss this hundred times, so.... :)
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you know JF, I would like to say that viewing these "best of " lists under the prism of logic, is a secret pleasure for me. ;)
I, too, think that when it comes to such matters, personal taste is all that matters. I believe that you totally got me about this being my favourite list, but they are important for me! I will try to elaborate, with some logical statements though. You can consider it a game!
Let's re-examine some parts of your post, just for the brain teasing experience!
"It's always difficult to answer to the question : is this musician /artist a "reference" in his art ?"
Well, no it is not easy, but on the other hand the whole triviality of this matter for us fans, is a paying job for some people, namely the critics, historians, fellow musicians, record companies, etc. This means that if there is an "objective" truth, we, as fans would be probably unable to know it, simply because we can not fully explore the subject due to lack of time and knowledge. This leaves us with one option really: choosing who to believe from the aforementioned people in the business, adding some of our favorites.
"IMHO, an "important" artist is a one whom we can say : art has been different after him. The way to create art changed after him. He influenced other artists.So, in our case, the question is : has the way of playing guitar changed after this or this guitarist ? Can we say there was guitar in rock music before him, and after him ? Has he influenced other guitarists ?
I like your term of "pioneers", it's exactly what can "describe" an "important" guitarist. If he is a "pionneer" in his category, it means that nobody else did what he did before him"
ONE of the criteria to define if an artist is "important" can be if art has been different after him. But it is merely one of the criteria, not everything. I believe that an artist is a man who tries to create art and art is a vague thing, more like an emperor's crown some people award to the results of an artists work. So in fact artists, their creations and art are three completely different things.
I find that there are several paradoxes if we go down to "pioneer" path. Of course, if you read again my post you will see that I have other two factors in the same sentence: "Exquisite records, in the beginning of the rock era". So I guess, the word "pioneers" is not good by itself. You can be a pioneer that nobody listens. If an obscure guitarist/composer plays/writes dozens of pieces of music, but none is able to listen to them, they are not going to influence anybody. Is he an artist? If after his death his music is discovered because the trends have gone the way he was composing, would he be considered a paradox or a contemporary artist? But his music hasn't influenced anybody!
That is why, I think consistency of work is a great clue abi\out artists. There are many artists with small body of work that have been in the right place and time and influenced the world. However it is not difficult to have one or a couple of nice songs (see the one hit wonders). So with a little luck, you can influence the world of art. But when the factor luck enters, it means that the "artist" had little control over the produced work. So can we consider him an artist? I could include many musicians here, but the point is that usually we don't know most of the artists that actually conveyed the changes, only the popular ones.
We also have to consider the fake art labels that are placed upon some arts, before they can stand the test of time. Since music, cinema and some other arts are major money making businesses, the companies have been using many marketing tools to convince people about the goodness and artistry of their product. Some times it works so good that it actually influences people.
"... EC has not "revolutionized" the way of playing guitar, such as Jimi or BB King ; but I think that we could say that he had a big influence on many guitarists after him, and I think we can say "there was guitar in the rock music before EC and after EC", I don't think he such to high."
I like EC recordings up to 1970. Yardbirds, Bluesbreakers, Cream, Blind Faith. Derek and the dominoes is still one of my all time favourites. After that he had 3-4 fine albums and then an abyss. It is not only his compositions, but the way he plays the guitar. I don't like his tone, his rhythm, nothing. I don't know why they said EC is a god, but surely if he was he has lost his deity status long ago. I believe that EC was the guitarist that was benefited the most from the use of new technollogy/ equipment for the electric guitar. Introducing the new sound has influenced a great many. If we can split (I know we can't because it is very unfair) the luck from the actual ability, Clapton was very lucky.
"K.Richard is THE rhtyhm rock guitarist IMHO, and I think he deserves his place. Rock riffs would never ahve been the same without him. Can we imagine that the Young brothers would have found all these riffs without listenig to K.Richards ?"
Hate to admit it but I have a strange relation with the Stones. I have most of their records (I don't have 3 or 4 of them maybe), but fail to see why they still have such a following. Their last fantastic record was "Exile on main street"! After that they had some good ones, but from the 80ies onwards they just had one or two goodish songs in every album. Richards is a damn fine player and I understand your comment and his value, but since I can't enjoy the final outcome, I can not rate him that high. What I mean is that if their career ended in 1979, Richards would be up there. Now he is just mining from these days of old!
"Page is not only a great guitarist, he' also a great producer-arranger-composer. His guitar parts are very tastefull on many recordings, and I like how he blend the blues with prog and oriental music. His influence on many guitarists is obvious. As Louis Bertignac said about Page's solo on Since I've been loving you (recorded in one take in the studio corridor !) : "it's the first time I cried listening a guitar solo"...even if I didn't cry, it's indeed one my all time fav solo , and I think one of the best rock solos IMHO"
I like Page very much, even though his last great recordings were with Led Zeppelin, 33 years ago. After that we had very sporadic recordings, that have not aged well, and well, very few people listen to them anymore. I am very fond of Led Zeppelin, and I think that Page was a fantastic arranger-produced for the group. Right time, right place. I am even willing to let his numerous "loans" from other songs and artists go under the radar. But what happened after 1982? Where is the talent?
"I did'nt listen many Green recordings, so maybe my judgment is not valable, but I'd say that his influence is less obvious."
Leave everything you do and go out and buy all the Fleetwood Mac records from the Green era and some of his solo material from the mid 70ies to mid 80ies. If I had to pick one from each I would go for "Then play on" and "In the skies". He had influenced many guitarists, (Gary Moore, Santana, Snowy White, and many more like Judas Priest!!!! http://youtu.be/kTvKaLW5bu8) but also influencial was the structure of his original songs and use of some new technology that have used creatively, by incorporating it in the song (listen to Supernatural http://youtu.be/QeOKj5XdVAE from his collaboration with John Mayall) .
"And , don't kill me, but I find that Mark is not such an "important" guitarist in rock music.
It's my favourite one, but it's not the same thing. I love his playing, his tone, but I don't think that he had a great influence on rock guitar "evolution"
I don't like Cobain or Johnny Marr, but I must admit that they had influence in rock music."
No, probably he is not, but he has a unique tone (more than Richards, Clapton or Page) that is harder to copy than other guitarists and is based on skill rather than effects, he also composes the songs and produces the albums and he is popular (even if they don't appreciate it because he became known in the mid 80ies baby boomers era-with others like Phil Collins ;D ) and his songs are covered by many artists as diverse as Killers and Kenny Rogers. And he still produces music of quality! A unique tone (which by definition is sort-of breaking new ground) when used with great effect to produce a fine tone is as important to me as changing the route of music (now is that always good?), maybe even more important, because I can actually enjoy the results!
"It's maybe a harsh statement, but I realized this, when I talk with family, friends, co-workers.... when I say "Dire Straits", everyboy says "ah yes, it's just this 80 band", and the only argument I have is that I love them, but in terms of "objective-musical-analysis", I think they can't suffer the comparaison with Dylan, Hendrix, beatles, Stones , Zappa (which I love) or with Bowie-The Cure-Nirvana-... (which I don't like), and I don't find examples to proove their impact and influence in rock history."
Same problem over here mon fr
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good point Vgonis :thumbsup
it's always a pleasure to read you :)
your arguments are very convincing, and your english is far better than mine, so I'd say I'm convinced :)
I agree with all that you said, about Clapton, Page, Stones, etc..., but to me the fact that these artists are only the shadow of themselves now is not a problem.
I like and listen their gold era, and it's good enoughto justify their place in rock history.
I totally agree that the last Stones good record is Exile (maybe I'd add its' only RnR for Taylor's work), but their 68-72 era is way above many other rock production IMHO, so even if their work from 1975 until now is bad music, I don't think it "devalues" the quality of Let it bleed or get yer ya-ya's out (one of my fav live album, ever)...
same for Clapton. I totally agree that his 80-90ies era is crap, but when I say I like Clapton and I think he is an "important" guitarist in rock music, I think of course of his 65-75 era, and how bad is August, it doesn't affect how good is Layla (my fav album too, and I think one of the best rock albums).
Agree about his influence on sound/technic. (Hendrix begun to use feedback after seeing Clapton doing this, by approching the guitar to the amp)
In fact I don't have any recodings from these bands/artist after 1975...
My Led Zep collection end at Physical graffitti. No matter what Page did after, the led Zep 68-75 era bring me to heaven.
This means that if there is an "objective" truth, we, as fans would be probably unable to know it, simply because we can not fully explore the subject due to lack of time and knowledge. This leaves us with one option really: choosing who to believe from the aforementioned people in the business, adding some of our favorites.
yes agree, but I think that sometimes fans are too much "focused" on their idol, and forget to read others critics/analysis about other artists.
Thats' why I try regularly to "zoom out" from MK/DS and examine the whole rock history, and not only my fav music.
I like hearing other point of view from other fans , from other music (I love reading twm about the Dylan thing), I think it helps to tend to an "objective" view" (even if I know it's impossible)