A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: 12345 on October 27, 2023, 11:03:00 AM
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I always wondered why Mark added the trumpets on Money For Nothing and Once Upon A Time In The West on the last tour, because imo they ruined the songs. Also the Les Paul really didn't fit on Once Upon A Time In The West, so why did he add that in? IMO it completely watered down Once Upon A Time In The West.
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I always wondered why Mark added the trumpets on Money For Nothing and Once Upon A Time In The West on the last tour, because imo they ruined the songs. Also the Les Paul really didn't fit on Once Upon A Time In The West, so why did he add that in? IMO this completely watered down the songs, especially Once Upon A Time In The West.
Why is a good question. Mark said rehearsals are his favourite part about playing live, that means trying new arrangements, new songs, etc. This is funny considering Mark is notorious for having a static setlist, but it doesn't mean he's not trying, and your example is a good indication of that.
It could be the same songs, but he's got new players in his band, so why not try? I know everybody universally seems to hate the brass section, but I love it. I also loved the seemingly overused pedal steel guitar on the On Evey Street tour and the new "Telegraph Road".
Also, keep in mind Mark throughout his life was against purists and never intended to stay away from experimentation. One of his favourite lines is "I would put a concrete mixer on a record if I thought that it was going to help it."
So overall, Mark's setlist and arrangements boil down to the set of musicians he's got on hand, his ability and/or willingness to perform songs because he can't do any of them especially as he got older, and the audience who wants to hear some of the classics.
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he always tried new arrangements every tour since the OL tour in 80-81
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I also think that the layers of instruments in some songs were meant to hide some inconsistancies in MK's playing
He was not as sharp as he used to be
The use of the Gibson and a thick sound also made the sound less precise and the occasional mistakes less noticeable on some songs
Or let's say the many instruments lightened his task and relieved him of lead duties to some extend
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I agree about the brass section being a bit of place on MFN and GH.
But it was soooo cool in the new WAM intro !
Even in SAN, I think it was a great addition.
As for OUATITW, yes it was a bit mellow, but it was so unexpected to hear it for the first time since 1983 that I can forgive that!
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I thought that the brass was used appropriately in OUTITW given its original Morricone flavoured influences....
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I also think that the layers of instruments in some songs were meant to hide some inconsistancies in MK's playing
He was not as sharp as he used to be
The use of the Gibson and a thick sound also made the sound less precise and the occasional mistakes less noticeable on some songs
Or let's say the many instruments lightened his task and relieved him of lead duties to some extend
This exactly. The brass wasn't there to add texture or make different arrangements whatsoever. The outros of songs like WAM and OUATITW are good examples of this as Mark only had very short pieces to play before handing over to another player. In 2008 versions of WAM he was playing good solos in that song with no assistance.
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As people said above, he used it to camouflage his inability to play guitar like in the past.
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As people said above, he used it to camouflage his inability to play guitar like in the past.
That's a very negative way to look at it. Surely he was trying to make the music as good as possible with what was available? If he'd done the opposite some on here would be moaning about the rough playing instead....
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As people said above, he used it to camouflage his inability to play guitar like in the past.
That's a very negative way to look at it. Surely he was trying to make the music as good as possible with what was available? If he'd done the opposite some on here would be moaning about the rough playing instead....
It might be negative, but it's still the truth.
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As people said above, he used it to camouflage his inability to play guitar like in the past.
That's a very negative way to look at it. Surely he was trying to make the music as good as possible with what was available? If he'd done the opposite some on here would be moaning about the rough playing instead....
It might be negative, but it's still the truth.
Your truth.
To my known Mark never acknowledged that he used the horn section in purpose to hide his weakness playing.
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I never thought about it that way. I just enjoy the music.
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I never thought about it that way. I just enjoy the music.
Exactly.
Even if this were true it would still be in pursuit of the best possible musical experience that Mark and co could produce given what was available.
A question or choice to those putting this point of view forward. What do you want, poor substandard guitar playing or a passionate performance by and artist trying to make the concert experience as good as possible?
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I never thought about it that way. I just enjoy the music.
Exactly.
Even if this were true it would still be in pursuit of the best possible musical experience that Mark and co could produce given what was available.
A question or choice to those putting this point of view forward. What do you want, poor substandard guitar playing or a passionate performance by and artist trying to make the concert experience as good as possible?
Nobody said anything about that. You are the one seeing it from that perspective. Mark used the additional instruments to disguise his guitar playing, yes. That isn't something inherently negative. Did it always work well, like in Postcards from Paraguay? No, but it was a smart and natural decision in order to play the best show possible.
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MFN and SAN still featured some good guitar skills.
WAM was great with the brass intro.
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I'm not feeling I'm negative with my statement, I did enjoy the show I attended very much.
But when I'm asked the question why all the horns and different guitar choice, I think MK wanted help in the lead section, and I agree it was to make the show more enjoyable for the audience.
I loved Postcard, the best orchestration so far, a Santanesque feeling that I loved.
And we got to have multiple interplays between all the players involved.
That's two ways of saying the same thing basically but it's just that I don't beat about the bush, there's a reason MK doesn't want to play live any longer
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I never thought about it that way. I just enjoy the music.
Exactly.
Even if this were true it would still be in pursuit of the best possible musical experience that Mark and co could produce given what was available.
A question or choice to those putting this point of view forward. What do you want, poor substandard guitar playing or a passionate performance by and artist trying to make the concert experience as good as possible?
Nobody said anything about that. You are the one seeing it from that perspective. Mark used the additional instruments to disguise his guitar playing, yes. That isn't something inherently negative. Did it always work well, like in Postcards from Paraguay? No, but it was a smart and natural decision in order to play the best show possible.
That's exactly what I meant. Somebody earlier said it was purely to camouflage his inability to play.
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I never thought about it that way. I just enjoy the music.
Exactly.
Even if this were true it would still be in pursuit of the best possible musical experience that Mark and co could produce given what was available.
A question or choice to those putting this point of view forward. What do you want, poor substandard guitar playing or a passionate performance by and artist trying to make the concert experience as good as possible?
I mean, by "poor substandard guitar playing" you should mean the performances of the DS songs over the last tour. The brass really didn't help disguise any of Mark's guitar playing (especially shown in Money For Nothing) imo, and they also made the songs sound a lot worse. Mark's playing has just gotten sloppier over the years in general.
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I never thought about it that way. I just enjoy the music.
Exactly.
Even if this were true it would still be in pursuit of the best possible musical experience that Mark and co could produce given what was available.
A question or choice to those putting this point of view forward. What do you want, poor substandard guitar playing or a passionate performance by and artist trying to make the concert experience as good as possible?
I mean, by "poor substandard guitar playing" you should mean the performances of the DS songs over the last tour, and the brass really didn't help disguise any of Mark's guitar playing, and they also made the songs sound a lot worse. Mark's playing has just gotten sloppier over the years in general.
That's your opinion and your entitled to it. I was responding to someone who saw it as a deliberate decision based on subterfuge, not a purely musical one...
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I never thought about it that way. I just enjoy the music.
Exactly.
Even if this were true it would still be in pursuit of the best possible musical experience that Mark and co could produce given what was available.
A question or choice to those putting this point of view forward. What do you want, poor substandard guitar playing or a passionate performance by and artist trying to make the concert experience as good as possible?
I mean, by "poor substandard guitar playing" you should mean the performances of the DS songs over the last tour, and the brass really didn't help disguise any of Mark's guitar playing, and they also made the songs sound a lot worse. Mark's playing has just gotten sloppier over the years in general.
That's your opinion and your entitled to it. I was responding to someone who saw it as a deliberate decision based on subterfuge, not a purely musical one...
But it wasn't a purely musical decision. It was a deliberate, practical decision to camouflage his decaying guitar skills. Then, we can debate whether that decision benefitted the music or not and that's subjective. But you would have to be crazy to believe that Mark added trumpet and saxophone to so many songs just because he fancied it. He did it because it allowed him to take a break during the songs, to play shorter, easier passages instead of longer solos, etc.
I'm not sure what's difficult to understand about this.
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I never thought about it that way. I just enjoy the music.
Exactly.
Even if this were true it would still be in pursuit of the best possible musical experience that Mark and co could produce given what was available.
A question or choice to those putting this point of view forward. What do you want, poor substandard guitar playing or a passionate performance by and artist trying to make the concert experience as good as possible?
I mean, by "poor substandard guitar playing" you should mean the performances of the DS songs over the last tour, and the brass really didn't help disguise any of Mark's guitar playing, and they also made the songs sound a lot worse. Mark's playing has just gotten sloppier over the years in general.
That's your opinion and your entitled to it. I was responding to someone who saw it as a deliberate decision based on subterfuge, not a purely musical one...
But it wasn't a purely musical decision. It was a deliberate, practical decision to camouflage his decaying guitar skills. Then, we can debate whether that decision benefitted the music or not and that's subjective. But you would have to be crazy to believe that Mark added trumpet and saxophone to so many songs just because he fancied it. He did it because it allowed him to take a break during the songs, to play shorter, easier passages instead of longer solos, etc.
I'm not sure what's difficult to understand about this.
All based on assumptions.
MK long ago ditched the focus on his guitar playing.
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When I saw that there was going to be a sax and a trumpet in the tour line up I thought that he meant to add songs like Heavy up, When you leave and other horn songs like Radio City Serenade to the set list, but as we know now that was not the plan he juts wanted them to to embelish the usual songs. It's easy to think he wanted some space to relax and play second fiddle for a change but then again I may be totally wrong.
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There weren’t that many sections where a guitar solo was replaced with trumpet was there? (There was already sax on the previous tour)
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I liked the arrangements on the last tour. I don’t think he ruined anything. Brass sounded great, even on Money For Nothing. Gave some punch to the music. Nice. And I was actually there. And he played as many solos as ever. Loved them. I don’t care if he’s not as good as he was in 83 or 92 or 08. Still unique tone. Sounded great in the hall. Cut clearly through the mix, so even if he did try to cover anything up with other instruments, he didn’t make it.
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... ehm..... but why the hell do you think Mark decide to stop playing live? Probably cause he's very satisfied with his current playing. For sure.... :disbelief
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I liked the arrangements on the last tour. I don’t think he ruined anything. Brass sounded great, even on Money For Nothing. Gave some punch to the music. Nice. And I was actually there. And he played as many solos as ever. Loved them. I don’t care if he’s not as good as he was in 83 or 92 or 08. Still unique tone. Sounded great in the hall. Cut clearly through the mix, so even if he did try to cover anything up with other instruments, he didn’t make it.
I agree. Once Upon A Time In The West sounded great to me too.
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There weren’t that many sections where a guitar solo was replaced with trumpet was there? (There was already sax on the previous tour)
The sax on the 2015 tour was only used on certain songs. (STP, Wherever I Go, I Used to could etc.)
Not arranged into every song
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You can all complain as much as you want... My feel is that (not all nights, but some nights, like Bordeaux) 2019 versions of the rockers (WAM, MFN, SAN) were the best ever :) and that the brass section did not replace the guitar (which was still good) , it complemented it.
I also loved BIA, even if I have to admit that the end solo was too simple.
OUATITW could have been better, but hey, that was much better than nothing, first time played since 1983!
And we got Silvertown, at least for some nights...
And we got My Bacon Roll and Matchstick man, which were great live...
All in all a wonderful farewell tour, I don't know why people dislike it that much!
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You can all complain as much as you want... My feel is that (not all nights, but some nights, like Bordeaux) 2019 versions of the rockers (WAM, MFN, SAN) were the best ever :) and that the brass section did not replace the guitar (which was still good) , it complemented it.
I also loved BIA, even if I have to admit that the end solo was too simple.
OUATITW could have been better, but hey, that was much better than nothing, first time played since 1983!
And we got Silvertown, at least for some nights...
And we got My Bacon Roll and Matchstick man, which were great live...
All in all a wonderful farewell tour, I don't know why people dislike it that much!
Exactly! And also the beautiful Heart Full Of Holes.
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From the three concerts I attended I felt that MK ended on a high, especially Verona which was the last concert in Europe. Excellent farewell tour!
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And STP was also the best ever.
Only for Going Home I felt that the brass section was too much.
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And STP was also the best ever.
Only for Going Home I felt that the brass section was too much.
Yes, STP was amazing. Perhaps too much going on in SAN, though, for my taste and I didn't like the brass section in Piper.
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I loved the concert I got to especially Sailing with Danny on vocals, Bacon and MFN, but I didn't get to have Silvertown and Heart full of holes this is Nimes festival for you, 14 songs and lights on.
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Guitar playing had to be somehow disguised indeed. Springsteen has done that with his music as he gets older: more people, much covering with soloists. MK has used that in 2019 and made it pretty succesful. But you can't argue his playing in 2019 is by very far his worst ever. The gap with 2015 is abysmal. It can be seen in those songs where there is no chance of fooling anybody. Just listen to a 2019 Brothers in Arms, a not very difficult song to play for him in terms of technique, and you'll see huge sloppiness and a suprisingly unknopflerly way to combine voice and guitar, which is one of his more celebrated trademarks (in BiA he was so stressed with his guitar parts between bars that he almost didn't make it to the mike to sing the verses, and sometimes you could not hear his voice). Hey, 2015 had even some decent Sultans!
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Mark playefd enough solo to make us aware of the state of his skill. With or without horns.
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You can all complain as much as you want... My feel is that (not all nights, but some nights, like Bordeaux) 2019 versions of the rockers (WAM, MFN, SAN) were the best ever :) and that the brass section did not replace the guitar (which was still good) , it complemented it.
I also loved BIA, even if I have to admit that the end solo was too simple.
OUATITW could have been better, but hey, that was much better than nothing, first time played since 1983!
And we got Silvertown, at least for some nights...
And we got My Bacon Roll and Matchstick man, which were great live...
All in all a wonderful farewell tour, I don't know why people dislike it that much!
I fully agree with you! :clap
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There weren’t that many sections where a guitar solo was replaced with trumpet was there? (There was already sax on the previous tour)
The sax on the 2015 tour was only used on certain songs. (STP, Wherever I Go, I Used to could etc.)
Not arranged into every song
Ok, but no one has answered my question.
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There weren’t that many sections where a guitar solo was replaced with trumpet was there? (There was already sax on the previous tour)
The sax on the 2015 tour was only used on certain songs. (STP, Wherever I Go, I Used to could etc.)
Not arranged into every song
Ok, but no one has answered my question.
Because neither the trumpet nor the saxophone have ever replaced the guitar.
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And STP was also the best ever.
Only for Going Home I felt that the brass section was too much.
Yes, STP was amazing. Perhaps too much going on in SAN, though, for my taste and I didn't like the brass section in Piper.
Indeed. Piper was spoiled by the brass section as it took Mark's beautiful final solo and he ended up playing rhythm to them! I was so saddened by that at Newcastle. I kept expecting him to play but he just played some licks in between. It made it such an anti-climax and I felt everyone else was expecting to hear him come in too.
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There weren’t that many sections where a guitar solo was replaced with trumpet was there? (There was already sax on the previous tour)
Piper off the top of my head. I think the point is that the brass section were backing up his solos rather than replacing them, or that he was able to play shorter solos and hand over to one of the brass players or folk players and they could take turns for a solo such as in WAM or STP.
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There weren’t that many sections where a guitar solo was replaced with trumpet was there? (There was already sax on the previous tour)
Anyway, I never found Piper good live. Even in 2010, the end solo was kind of slow and lazy. The album version has a lot of drive and energy. One of these songs for which the studio version is unmatched!
Piper off the top of my head. I think the point is that the brass section were backing up his solos rather than replacing them, or that he was able to play shorter solos and hand over to one of the brass players or folk players and they could take turns for a solo such as in WAM or STP.
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There weren’t that many sections where a guitar solo was replaced with trumpet was there? (There was already sax on the previous tour)
Anyway, I never found Piper good live. Even in 2010, the end solo was kind of slow and lazy. The album version has a lot of drive and energy. One of these songs for which the studio version is unmatched!
Piper off the top of my head. I think the point is that the brass section were backing up his solos rather than replacing them, or that he was able to play shorter solos and hand over to one of the brass players or folk players and they could take turns for a solo such as in WAM or STP.
The studio version is hard to beat for sure but the Phil's accordion makes a difference I think. 2013 versions were best IMHO, Helsinki being a standout.
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There weren’t that many sections where a guitar solo was replaced with trumpet was there? (There was already sax on the previous tour)
Piper off the top of my head. I think the point is that the brass section were backing up his solos rather than replacing them, or that he was able to play shorter solos and hand over to one of the brass players or folk players and they could take turns for a solo such as in WAM or STP.
“Backing up” is hardly masking mistakes. I think too much is being made of this. If the purpose of the brass was to cover up the deterioration of his playing, the brass players failed in their task.
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Everybody is entitled to his opinion and it is normal that they differ.
I liked the brass section and my only regret is Mark never went further to Rythm and Blues sound - of course this is just my personal taste.
I liked the folky addition in 2008 but 2010 and Mike McGoldrick inclusion was a step too much.
Don't get me wrong, as a performer I have nothing against him, he's a fantastic player but I didn't like his flute being added on too many songs. Overused.
And that choice lasted on after tour. With the exception of TR, 2008 was almost perfect and I deeply miss a Sbd release from that tour.
Keep in mind that 2019 has been his farewell solo tour and the inclusion of MFN was a big surprise for me.
The overcrowded stage was a bit like DireStraits (yet unannounced) own farewell tour as well.
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Everybody is entitled to his opinion and it is normal that they differ.
I liked the brass section and my only regret is Mark never went further to Rythm and Blues sound - of course this is just my personal taste.
I liked the folky addition in 2008 but 2010 and Mike McGoldrick inclusion was a step too much.
Don't get me wrong, as a performer I have nothing against him, he's a fantastic player but I didn't like his flute being added on too many songs. Overused.
And that choice lasted on after tour. With the exception of TR, 2008 was almost perfect and I deeply miss a Sbd release from that tour.
Keep in mind that 2019 has been his farewell solo tour and the inclusion of MFN was a big surprise for me.
The overcrowded stage was a bit like DireStraits (yet unannounced) own farewell tour as well.
I totally agree with you DS, my problem is with the whole title of this thread. Its akin to the question 'when did you stop beating your wife'! Its prejudiced.
A better or more appropriate question would be 'Why did MK make some musical choices on the last tour that I didnt like', or something similar.
MK has never 'Ruined' anything.....
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yes agreed
"ruin" is a matter of personal opinion