Post by: dustyvalentino on September 13, 2023, 10:22:16 PM
Looks great!
Post by: the visitor on September 13, 2023, 10:42:58 PM
Pic here https://store.udiscover-music.de/assets/asset_300x300/Dire-Straits-The-Live-Albums-LTD-11LP-Boxset-Vinyl-Box-504855-401607.png
Looks like retail price of 209 euro. You'd pay that for a couple of bootlegs
Post by: Dutchessy on September 13, 2023, 10:44:07 PM
Post by: the visitor on September 13, 2023, 10:44:48 PM
Post by: ds1984 on September 13, 2023, 10:48:18 PM
What a great news :clap
ALCHEMY
ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST
INDUSTRIAL DISEASE
EXPRESSO LOVE
ROMEO AND JULIET
LOVE OVER GOLD
PRIVATE INVESTIGATIONS
SULTANS OF SWING
TWISTING BY THE POOL
TWO YOUNG LOVERS
PORTOBELLO BELLE
TUNNEL OF LOVE
SOLID ROCK
TELEGRAPH ROAD
GOING HOME – THEME FROM ‘LOCAL HERO’
ON THE NIGHT
CALLING ELVIS
WALK OF LIFE
HEAVY FUEL
ROMEO AND JULIET
PRIVATE INVESTIGATIONS
SULTANS OF SWING
FADE TO BLACK
YOUR LATEST TRICK
WHEN IT COMES TO YOU
I THINK I LOVE YOU TOO MUCH
YOU AND YOUR FRIEND
ON EVERY STREET
TWO YOUNG LOVERS
TUNNEL OF LOVE
TELEGRAPH ROAD
MONEY FOR NOTHING
BROTHERS IN ARMS
ENCORES
YOUR LATEST TRICK
THE BUG
SOLID ROCK
LOCAL HERO – WILD THEME
LIVE AT THE BBC
DOWN TO THE WATERLINE
SIX BLADE KNIFE
WATER OF LOVE
WILD WEST END
SULTANS OF SWING
LIONS
WHAT’S THE MATTER BABY?
TUNNEL OF LOVE
LIVE AT THE RAINBOW
DOWN TO THE WATERLINE
SIX BLADE KNIFE
ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST
LADY WRITER
LIONS
SULTANS OF SWING
LES BOYS
PORTOBELLO BELLE
NEWS
WHAT’S THE MATTER BABY?
SETTING ME UP
IN THE GALLERY
SOLID ROCK
SOUTHBOUND AGAIN
WHERE DO YOU THINK YOU’RE GOING?
WILD WEST END
TWISTING BY THE POOL
GOOD MORNING LITTLE SCHOOLGIRL*
THAT’S ALRIGHT MAMA*
NADINE*
KEEP ON KNOCKING*
* WITH PHIL LYNOTT AND TONY DE MEUR
Post by: Robson on September 13, 2023, 10:51:19 PM
Post by: quizzaciously on September 13, 2023, 11:05:57 PM
Can't wait. Thank you for the great message. :thumbsup
That's, indeed, great. I love rarities and unreleased songs from almost any artist, let alone MK&DS.
Post by: Kris-b on September 13, 2023, 11:26:01 PM
Post by: Billy’s Tune on September 13, 2023, 11:27:13 PM
Well done Guy! (Hopefully!!)
Post by: JF on September 14, 2023, 12:10:01 AM
That means we won’t hear the whole transition in one way
And a shame they didn’t include PONO…
Even when they finally release something that could be really great, there are always some imperfections….
Post by: herlock on September 14, 2023, 12:30:46 AM
Also I would have loved a blu-Ray... No video, too bad!
Post by: schmonka on September 14, 2023, 12:56:40 AM
Agree about not releasing PONO and Iron Hand from the OES tour...why not?
Post by: vape68 on September 14, 2023, 01:19:42 AM
Post by: jf9081 on September 14, 2023, 02:14:08 AM
Portobello belle Alchemy extended version :clap
Post by: Knut on September 14, 2023, 02:38:51 AM
Post by: Brunno Nunes on September 14, 2023, 03:43:54 AM
Planet of New Orleans was unfortunately no longer present in the setlist when the tour was in Nimes and Rotterdam in May 1992, which is why it was not included, as is Iron Hand. However, the songs that must be presented to configure the complete On The Night are:
Fade to Black will be the Nimes version 21.05.92.
Think I Love too Much and Tunnel of Love will be in Rotterdam 30.05.92.
I noticed this detail on the Alchemy set:
TWO YOUNG LOVERS
PORTOBELLO BELLE
TUNNEL OF LOVE
(SOLID ROCK)
TELEGRAPH ROAD
GOING HOME – THEME FROM ‘LOCAL HERO’
Strange that Solid Rock is in that order in Alchemy.
LIVE AT THE RAINBOW 1979 (Last show of the Communiqué tour)
DOWN TO THE WATERLINE
SIX BLADE KNIFE
ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST
LADY WRITER
LIONS
SULTANS OF SWING
LES BOYS
PORTOBELLO BELLE
NEWS
WHAT’S THE MATTER BABY?
SETTING ME UP
IN THE GALLERY
SOLID ROCK
SOUTHBOUND AGAIN
WHERE DO YOU THINK YOU’RE GOING?
WILD WEST END
TWISTING BY THE POOL
GOOD MORNING LITTLE SCHOOLGIRL*
THAT’S ALRIGHT MAMA*
NADINE*
KEEP ON KNOCKING*
* WITH PHIL LYNOTT AND TONY DE MEUR
The icing on the cake for me, I really wanted this show in its entirety. :lol
The absence of Single Handed Sailor and Angel of Mercy is strange, which during this period was forming a bridge with Solid Rock. I still believe that the order of the setlist presented in this box is wrong for this Show at Rainbow Theatre, Wild West End separate from Portobello Belle, since there was a bridge between the two; something similar happens with Setting me Up and Southbound Again
For the show at Rainbow Theater 79, there are at least 4 songs missing that were played during that period, which was the end of the tour, Single Handed Sailor, Follow me Home, Angel Of Mercy and Water of Love, both present on the Oslo 79 recording, a very good date. close to this last show. But anyway, what will be delivered will be very welcome!
After this pleasant surprise, I believe even more that video recordings of this material exist, with the exception of the Live at the BBC.
It is a tremendous sacrilege that these videos exist and are not released in some way, it was a great sacrilege that these audios are not released until then, better late than never!
Post by: jbaent on September 14, 2023, 06:08:57 AM
Strange that they split linked songs (ID & EL or PB & TOL) on different sides…
That means we won’t hear the whole transition in one way
And a shame they didn’t include PONO…
Even when they finally release something that could be really great, there are always some imperfections….
Those songs would be linked in the CDs and digital versions.
Post by: jbaent on September 14, 2023, 06:14:08 AM
The missing songs for that concert could be just to accommodate the songs they played with Phil Lynnot and maybe they had a curfew.
Very important from this show, it was the very last of the original DS line!, the last one with David.
Post by: qjamesfloyd on September 14, 2023, 07:49:32 AM
Post by: KnopfleRick on September 14, 2023, 08:16:58 AM
Post by: goon525 on September 14, 2023, 08:18:47 AM
Post by: jbaent on September 14, 2023, 08:23:14 AM
And now, the picky fan inside me, wants to write the following ;D:
I assume that it was Guy the one in charge as he said something about this in his forum long ago.
- ALCHEMY
We don't have information about what date they choose the songs, if it's the 23rd of July in its entirity, a mix with the 22nd, or the 22nd in their entirity.
Why this doubt? We know Guy had the tapes of the 22nd available as he used them to extract "Portobello" for the new MFN compilation, so if he had them, he might had used them.
If he used the 22nd in its entirity, think about it, we will have another new Alchemy! but we won't have the old one in full...
- ON THE NIGHT
We don't know which date they used for each song, and we don't know also if Guy picked new sources for all the OTN existing songs or used the previous ones, so if it's the first case, we would have a totally new and different OTN than the one released in 1993, which would be cool!
Also if he used the previous ones, he might mixed them again so maybe they are more real and with better sound?
I miss that they included PLANET that live was a killing song. The text said they used some Paris recordings and they played that song in Paris at least twice but hey, they included WHEN IT COMES TO YOU and I THINK I LOVE YOU TOO MUCH! That's so awesome!
- LIVE AT THE BBC
I hope this time they used the correct TUNNEL from Old Grey Whistle Test and not the one from Werchert, or was it Dortmund?
- RAINBOW 79
For me this is the real GEMM of the pack as it is something totally unreleased and it has two unique moments in the DS history, it is the last concert/s of the original band (last gigs with David) and the awesome colaboration with the mighty Phil Lynnot!!!!!
Again, we don't know if they used the two nights at the Rainbow or just one of them, and according to setlist.fm, they played the nights before in Lewisham "Making Movies" live, so I always guessed they also played it at the Rainbow, as they were rehearsing the song in those days.
- VIDEO
We know that all the ALCHEMY, OTN and RAINBOW gigs were recorded in video so, can we expect them to be released as well in the future? I HOPE SO.
After years and years of complaing about re-releasing again and again the same stuff, finally someone listened to us, and whoever he/she is THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: jbaent on September 14, 2023, 08:24:46 AM
I wonder whether the timing of this release helps to explain the endless delay in issuing the new solo album?
I'm sure. Guy mentioned in is forum he was doing something with live stuff, and as it is a DS thing probably coming from the record company, if they wanted it to be released this year, they might had told Guy this had TOTAL PRIORITY!
Post by: rmarques821 on September 14, 2023, 08:26:17 AM
Let 3rd of November come! :)
I think the reason they didn't include anything from BIA tour is that they will release it separately
Post by: Klaus74 on September 14, 2023, 08:50:53 AM
Post by: herlock on September 14, 2023, 09:26:03 AM
I really can"t understand why PONO was left out. Is Guy sadistic ? Rememeber, the very same Guy left "I dup up a diamond" on the Reallive Roadrunning CD, and replaced it with All that Matters !!
Also, I can't understand why there is nothing from the OL and BIA tours. For OL, something could have bit done with Dormund (albeit in mono) and Werchter. For BIA, Wembley 85, San Antonio 85, Houston 85, Sydney 86... could have been used. Maybe as another release ?
Post by: rmarques821 on September 14, 2023, 09:34:18 AM
Post by: jbaent on September 14, 2023, 09:50:54 AM
The price is good for all the content it has.
Post by: Pottel on September 14, 2023, 10:04:20 AM
lp box costs 229 pounds or was it euros?
cd box 49pounds or euros...
also, 3rd of november, just in time for my birthday...noice
AWESOME
Post by: dustyvalentino on September 14, 2023, 10:25:01 AM
did not see it on Amazon.de last night.
lp box costs 229 pounds or was it euros?
cd box 49pounds or euros...
also, 3rd of november, just in time for my birthday...noice
AWESOME
Pounds for both.
Post by: the visitor on September 14, 2023, 10:30:26 AM
Post by: Rolleyway Man on September 14, 2023, 10:45:44 AM
Pre-ordered without hesitation!
Post by: localhero1986 on September 14, 2023, 10:52:51 AM
Post by: JF on September 14, 2023, 11:20:46 AM
the mail doesn't have the complete tracklist, but in the list of unreleased tracks from OTN, it doesn't feature fade to black
I will ask to have confirmation
Post by: jbaent on September 14, 2023, 11:29:14 AM
I got the official confirmation by my contact at Universal this morning
the mail doesn't have the complete tracklist, but in the list of unreleased tracks from OTN, it doesn't feature fade to black
I will ask to have confirmation
I will happily change it for PLANET, lol
Post by: superval99 on September 14, 2023, 11:30:06 AM
Post by: vape68 on September 14, 2023, 01:42:54 PM
I got the official confirmation by my contact at Universal this morning
the mail doesn't have the complete tracklist, but in the list of unreleased tracks from OTN, it doesn't feature fade to black
I will ask to have confirmation
I will happily change it for PLANET, lol
same here, I can pay an extra price if needed
Post by: K-alberto on September 14, 2023, 02:12:52 PM
THIS NEWS IS ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL!
Post by: JF on September 14, 2023, 02:55:10 PM
Hope there will also be other formats, like digital release, Spotify etc....
the link talks about a digital version
Post by: JF on September 14, 2023, 02:56:54 PM
I hope there will be "new" photos we never saw
Post by: herlock on September 14, 2023, 03:26:56 PM
For Alchemy, it talks about "extended versions" of TR, Solid Rock and Going Hone. What is there to "extend" for theses songs ? They are already compete ! the only song to "extend" is Portbobello Belle (and more because it had been "reduced" in the first place on the MFN compilation).
Post by: iorch82 on September 14, 2023, 03:29:53 PM
Post by: wakeywakey on September 14, 2023, 03:57:34 PM
https://thesoundofvinyl.com/collections/dire-straits-mark-knopfler/products/the-live-albums-1978-1992-vinyl-12lp-box-set
Post by: Robson on September 14, 2023, 04:01:12 PM
Post by: wakeywakey on September 14, 2023, 04:05:15 PM
https://www.roughtrade.com/gb/product/dire-straits/the-live-albums-1978-1992
Post by: dustyvalentino on September 14, 2023, 04:08:48 PM
Getting cheaper already?
https://thesoundofvinyl.com/collections/dire-straits-mark-knopfler/products/the-live-albums-1978-1992-vinyl-12lp-box-set
More reasonable but I think I'll go CD for this. To be honest I've been disappointed with quite a few new vinyl pressings lately. It seems they can't make records like they used to!
Post by: rmarques821 on September 14, 2023, 04:19:32 PM
Some of the info given is inconsistant. Yes, the omitted "Fade to Black" in the new tracks for On the Night, but also:In the case of Going Home could be the little speech of Mark, saying goodbye, that is present in the DVD but not in the CD. Telegraph Road could be a version from Paris that has a longer solo than the Alchemy one. Solid Rock i have no clue
For Alchemy, it talks about "extended versions" of TR, Solid Rock and Going Hone. What is there to "extend" for theses songs ? They are already compete ! the only song to "extend" is Portbobello Belle (and more because it had been "reduced" in the first place on the MFN compilation).
Post by: Robson on September 14, 2023, 04:22:43 PM
Post by: dustyvalentino on September 14, 2023, 05:09:44 PM
https://www.amazon.fr/Live-1978-1992-Dire-Straits/dp/B0C92W29LD/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=19DCH15L3WR5L&keywords=dire+straits+1992&qid=1694703992&sprefix=dire+straits+1992%2Caps%2C100&sr=8-1
Post by: Darling Pretty on September 14, 2023, 05:11:12 PM
At the End of Mark's career I am sure we will get more.
More Live, More Outtakes and maybe the STP Madrid concert on Blu-Ray one day.
He has to make some additional money. No touring anymore
Now he does not care anymore.
Post by: Marnix on September 14, 2023, 06:16:30 PM
Post by: border_reiver on September 14, 2023, 06:21:19 PM
Post by: Robson on September 14, 2023, 06:53:28 PM
There's Fade To Black
Everything looks beautiful. On The Night discs are blue :)
Post by: Robson on September 14, 2023, 07:20:33 PM
I want to start this message saying this is absolutely awesome and it's something we all been dreaming about and even more!
And now, the picky fan inside me, wants to write the following ;D:
I assume that it was Guy the one in charge as he said something about this in his forum long ago.
- ALCHEMY
We don't have information about what date they choose the songs, if it's the 23rd of July in its entirity, a mix with the 22nd, or the 22nd in their entirity.
Why this doubt? We know Guy had the tapes of the 22nd available as he used them to extract "Portobello" for the new MFN compilation, so if he had them, he might had used them.
If he used the 22nd in its entirity, think about it, we will have another new Alchemy! but we won't have the old one in full...
- ON THE NIGHT
We don't know which date they used for each song, and we don't know also if Guy picked new sources for all the OTN existing songs or used the previous ones, so if it's the first case, we would have a totally new and different OTN than the one released in 1993, which would be cool!
Also if he used the previous ones, he might mixed them again so maybe they are more real and with better sound?
I miss that they included PLANET that live was a killing song. The text said they used some Paris recordings and they played that song in Paris at least twice but hey, they included WHEN IT COMES TO YOU and I THINK I LOVE YOU TOO MUCH! That's so awesome!
- LIVE AT THE BBC
I hope this time they used the correct TUNNEL from Old Grey Whistle Test and not the one from Werchert, or was it Dortmund?
- RAINBOW 79
For me this is the real GEMM of the pack as it is something totally unreleased and it has two unique moments in the DS history, it is the last concert/s of the original band (last gigs with David) and the awesome colaboration with the mighty Phil Lynnot!!!!!
Again, we don't know if they used the two nights at the Rainbow or just one of them, and according to setlist.fm, they played the nights before in Lewisham "Making Movies" live, so I always guessed they also played it at the Rainbow, as they were rehearsing the song in those days.
- VIDEO
We know that all the ALCHEMY, OTN and RAINBOW gigs were recorded in video so, can we expect them to be released as well in the future? I HOPE SO.
After years and years of complaing about re-releasing again and again the same stuff, finally someone listened to us, and whoever he/she is THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!
-Newly remastered versions of Alchemy and On The Night, both of which are currently unavailable on vinyl (Alchemy was last pressed in the mid-eighties, On The Night was last pressed for the original release in 1993).
-An expanded version of the original 2LP of Alchemy to include the existing digital/CD tracklist which includes ‘Love Over Gold’ and the extended versions of ‘Telegraph Road’, ‘Solid Rock’ and ‘Going Home’, with the addition of ‘Portobello Belle’ (released on the Money For Nothing compilation in 1998) as well as the unreleased songs from the performance – ‘Industrial Disease’ and ‘Twisting By The Pool’.
An expanded version of the original 2LP of On The Night to include tracks performed during the tour which have never been released, taken from multitrack recordings of shows in Nimes, Rotterdam and Paris: ‘Tunnel Of Love, ‘Telegraph Road’, ‘Sultans Of Swing’, ‘Two Young Lovers’, ‘When it Comes To You’, ‘I Think I Love You Too Much’.
-Encores on black vinyl (remastered for Black Friday 2021)
-Licenced 1995 collection Live At The BBC
-The unreleased Dire Straits Live from the Rainbow Theatre show, 1979 – mixed by Guy Fletcher
Post by: Billy’s Tune on September 14, 2023, 08:26:05 PM
Post by: Dutchessy on September 14, 2023, 08:58:41 PM
Post by: Robson on September 14, 2023, 09:16:26 PM
How do we know its the full Portobello Belle? Im afraid its just the 4min version...
From the link in this post:
The expanded version of the original double album Alchemy will include unreleased songs from the performance – “Industrial Disease” and “Twisting By The Pool” – as well as “Love Over Gold”, and the extended versions of “Telegraph Road”, “Solid Rock”, “Going Home” and “Portobello Belle”.
But is this true information? Hard to say. The DS com website contains very general information
Post by: ds1984 on September 14, 2023, 09:29:38 PM
I get hope because now I know Mark is not vetoing unreleased live stuff.
Of course I miss PONO SOOOOOO much but maybe a later release will feature this gem.
PONO was performed on some selected date during the Paris residency (at least 3 nights) but I don't know if any of these were part of the recorded gig.
But at least it exist a soundboard recording and video from rehearsal so there is hope.
And maybe later we will get some OL and BIA shows.
I so delighted
Post by: the visitor on September 14, 2023, 09:45:03 PM
Post by: El Macho on September 14, 2023, 09:50:05 PM
How do we know its the full Portobello Belle? Im afraid its just the 4min version...
There’s only Two Young Lovers and Portobello Belle on the side 4 on the LP version.
Only 10 minutes if it’s the 4 minutes long version. I would say it’s the long version !
Post by: 2manyguitars on September 14, 2023, 11:31:27 PM
Post by: Fletch on September 14, 2023, 11:46:10 PM
A well put together ad is doing the rounds on social media. Nice to see some half decent publicity going into this release....
Just saw that on Marks socials... a very pleasant surprise, can't wait to hear the Rainbow show. Imagine if they'd included a BIA concert too? Looking forward to more DS releases as the years roll on now.
Post by: jf9081 on September 15, 2023, 02:51:53 AM
the intro to Down to the waterline..is EPIC!
spectacular audio
Post by: Robson on September 15, 2023, 04:05:35 AM
Post by: Banjo99uk on September 15, 2023, 04:36:20 AM
on Spotify there are 3 songs from the rainbow liveThey’re on Amazon music as well. Just fantastic.
the intro to Down to the waterline..is EPIC!
spectacular audio
Post by: herlock on September 15, 2023, 06:16:57 AM
Fantastic DTTW indeed, but... It seems that this is not the same night as on the BBC Arena documentary. Here Mark is less chatty (on the BBC Arena he talks a lot at the beginning: "We are going to get some new songs into and... You call them! We'll just go and play them"), a bit less fast, a bit less drunk probably... I think I still prefer the BBC Arena "drunk" version, quite unique, which must December 20th, then, if this one is December 21st?
Post by: kaleo74 on September 15, 2023, 07:07:26 AM
I just listened to the 3 tracks and Wow, the Doc did an amazing job on the mix, it's impressive for a 1979 concert.
Post by: TheTimeWasWrong on September 15, 2023, 09:05:20 AM
Really curious about OTN also. Everybody has been complaining about the sound for years. It would be way easier to remix the already released songs instead of making the unreleased songs sound like the 1993 release. Or, perhaps they were already mixed at the time?
Post by: herlock on September 15, 2023, 09:18:55 AM
However, in 1991 the song was played similarly to the alternate Tommy White sessions - with flute. To me this version is so much more touching... It's a mystery to me why this version is not the one which ended up on the album, and why Mark reverted to the "normal" version live, after a nice try of this fluty alternate version. So many mysteries with Mark...
Post by: Brunno Nunes on September 15, 2023, 12:13:29 PM
Post by: Brunno Nunes on September 15, 2023, 12:14:08 PM
The licks made in SOS and Lady Writer are just fabulous, very fluid and brimming with creativity, Mark was singing with 100% the spirit of Bob Dylan during this period, I love this "incarnation!
Post by: Fletch on September 15, 2023, 12:41:26 PM
This version of Lady Writer for me is apotheotic, as is certainly everything in this show, which has an unparalleled atmosphere. What an incredible feeling listening to this record, it will most likely be the most special and favorite of all time for me. I say it again, this is pure gold!!!! :clap
Completely agree! I'm not encyclopedic with bootlegs so I can't compare these to many other versions but the quality is outstanding & the vibe..., so so good! What an amazing experience it must have been to have been in a club in their early days or a larger club venue on this tour! This whole release is such an unexpected official turnaround ("MK doesn't look back") for DS fans! My dreams of unreleased studio outtakes will now flourish into another future boxset.
Post by: Dutchessy on September 15, 2023, 01:58:53 PM
Post by: JF on September 15, 2023, 02:16:12 PM
It's the 22 july PB according to Guy.
:o
Post by: herlock on September 15, 2023, 02:19:05 PM
Also, didn't Guy once said that they recorded all shows from the BIA tour? Strange then that none is included!!
Post by: Dutchessy on September 15, 2023, 02:29:52 PM
Post by: cannibals on September 15, 2023, 02:42:50 PM
Post by: rmarques821 on September 15, 2023, 03:05:10 PM
I wonder if this new boxset was an idea of MK and JI or the record compagny? And does MK really work on this or does he give Guy a sort of cart blanche??Mark probably doesn't give a hoot about this. He probably said "yeah, go ahead" and that's it
Post by: border_reiver on September 15, 2023, 03:10:35 PM
I wonder if this new boxset was an idea of MK and JI or the record compagny? And does MK really work on this or does he give Guy a sort of cart blanche??Mark probably doesn't give a hoot about this. He probably said "yeah, go ahead" and that's it
Probably uncannily close to the truth :)
Post by: jf9081 on September 15, 2023, 03:12:07 PM
I'm not sure about 22nd. The guy who asked the question assumed that the one on the MFN compilation was July 22nd. But we know in fact that this is neither 21st nor 22nd, but a date in June (as stated in the copyright), most likely Paris. Seems to be some confusion here, maybe with Guy as well!
Also, didn't Guy once said that they recorded all shows from the BIA tour? Strange then that none is included!!
I asked the question ;), as far as I know, in the 1988 MFN collection the version of Portobello Belle is the Paris version, the 2022 remasterd version and the 22 July 1983 version of Alchemy, therefore the extended version of the box and this last one , as confirmed by Guy.
Post by: herlock on September 15, 2023, 03:28:55 PM
OK, sorry! :)I'm not sure about 22nd. The guy who asked the question assumed that the one on the MFN compilation was July 22nd. But we know in fact that this is neither 21st nor 22nd, but a date in June (as stated in the copyright), most likely Paris. Seems to be some confusion here, maybe with Guy as well!
Also, didn't Guy once said that they recorded all shows from the BIA tour? Strange then that none is included!!
I asked the question ;), as far as I know, in the 1988 MFN collection the version of Portobello Belle is the Paris version, the 2022 remasterd version and the 22 July 1983 version of Alchemy, therefore the extended version of the box and this last one , as confirmed by Guy.
Post by: jf9081 on September 15, 2023, 03:32:09 PM
OK, sorry! :)I'm not sure about 22nd. The guy who asked the question assumed that the one on the MFN compilation was July 22nd. But we know in fact that this is neither 21st nor 22nd, but a date in June (as stated in the copyright), most likely Paris. Seems to be some confusion here, maybe with Guy as well!
Also, didn't Guy once said that they recorded all shows from the BIA tour? Strange then that none is included!!
I asked the question ;), as far as I know, in the 1988 MFN collection the version of Portobello Belle is the Paris version, the 2022 remasterd version and the 22 July 1983 version of Alchemy, therefore the extended version of the box and this last one , as confirmed by Guy.
:D ;)
Post by: JF on September 15, 2023, 03:34:05 PM
I'm not sure about 22nd. The guy who asked the question assumed that the one on the MFN compilation was July 22nd. But we know in fact that this is neither 21st nor 22nd, but a date in June (as stated in the copyright), most likely Paris. Seems to be some confusion here, maybe with Guy as well!
Also, didn't Guy once said that they recorded all shows from the BIA tour? Strange then that none is included!!
I asked the question ;), as far as I know, in the 1988 MFN collection the version of Portobello Belle is the Paris version, the 2022 remasterd version and the 22 July 1983 version of Alchemy, therefore the extended version of the box and this last one , as confirmed by Guy.
it could mean that other songs (industrial disease and Twisting by the pool) could be from the 22 as well...
but in this case, Alchemy would lack its "live from one night only" lengendary status then (we all know that the orginal Alchemy is entirely from the 23, except the final break in Solid rock)
Post by: wakeywakey on September 15, 2023, 03:36:41 PM
I wonder if this new boxset was an idea of MK and JI or the record compagny? And does MK really work on this or does he give Guy a sort of cart blanche??Mark probably doesn't give a hoot about this. He probably said "yeah, go ahead" and that's it
No that is an illusion.
He cares immensely about his legacy.
The last album was all about looking back as was John's.
Add in covid,the seemingly weekly death of his peers,the end of touring and his inability to do some of the things he excelled at means he is sure to wistfully reminisce on a more frequent basis.
The DS bandwagon has slowly been cranking things up and if the live set is a success will surely only lead to many more things.
The DS catalogue is his biggest earner now so why would he not allow it to be milked?
It's great news for us fans.
Post by: Banjo99uk on September 15, 2023, 03:44:41 PM
I'm not sure about 22nd. The guy who asked the question assumed that the one on the MFN compilation was July 22nd. But we know in fact that this is neither 21st nor 22nd, but a date in June (as stated in the copyright), most likely Paris. Seems to be some confusion here, maybe with Guy as well!I reckon they’re planning a box set in 2025 to celebrate the 40th Anniversary of BIA. Hence the bands biggest moment not included in this one.
Also, didn't Guy once said that they recorded all shows from the BIA tour? Strange then that none is included!!
Post by: Darling Pretty on September 15, 2023, 03:50:35 PM
I'm not sure about 22nd. The guy who asked the question assumed that the one on the MFN compilation was July 22nd. But we know in fact that this is neither 21st nor 22nd, but a date in June (as stated in the copyright), most likely Paris. Seems to be some confusion here, maybe with Guy as well!I reckon they’re planning a box set in 2025 to celebrate the 40th Anniversary of BIA. Hence the bands biggest moment not included in this one.
Also, didn't Guy once said that they recorded all shows from the BIA tour? Strange then that none is included!!
Exactly my thoughts just a few moments ago.
They wait for 2025. 40 Years of BIA with maybe a new remaster and a Blu-ray of Wembley plus some Live Concerts
Post by: jabbathehut on September 15, 2023, 04:26:07 PM
Post by: Marnix on September 15, 2023, 04:29:37 PM
Post by: cannibals on September 15, 2023, 04:42:26 PM
If you read Guy’s forum he writes there is more in the pipeline. So maybe there are more recordings coming hopefullyWhat about a live cd from the BIA tour. When they were the biggest band in the world??
Post by: Banjo99uk on September 15, 2023, 04:52:57 PM
Post by: Robson on September 15, 2023, 04:53:29 PM
If you read Guy’s forum he writes there is more in the pipeline. So maybe there are more recordings coming hopefullyWhat about a live cd from the BIA tour. When they were the biggest band in the world??
And Sydney, for example. April 26, 1986? :)
Post by: cannibals on September 15, 2023, 04:58:10 PM
Post by: jbaent on September 15, 2023, 05:38:22 PM
It is just strange to put out a full boxset of live recordings of almost evey DS tour and leave the biggest tour with the best selling album out. :think
Because this is a "live records" box similar to the previous "studio records" boxes.
But with an extra like the Rainbow 79 and extra stuff in the other records.
They could had put as an extra one from the BIA tour but, I prefer the Rainbow 79!
Post by: Dutchessy on September 15, 2023, 05:55:20 PM
The official email says they will be releasing Live Videos on youtube on the run up to November.
Yeah, hopefully from 1979 (Probably that one wasn't filmed) or unreleased tracks... Bet they will post Walk of Life from On the Night or something ::)
Post by: onceupon84 on September 15, 2023, 05:56:15 PM
Check 3'10" on Blu-Ray version and 5'52" on new 21th December version.
Additionally, If PB is from 22 July, and maybe the rest of extras from Alchemy, they don't glue with old mix from 1983. They can glue with stereo 2010 mix from Blu-Ray. So, maybe there is a new alchemy live integrally from 22 July? Guy Fletcher omitted it intentionality? Remember that he said that only new unreleased material is remixed, the rest is remastered, check the difference.
Post by: jbaent on September 15, 2023, 06:00:17 PM
The version published of SOS from new Rainbow '79 is the same audio than Arena '80.
Check 3'10" on Blu-Ray version and 5'52" on new 21th December version.
Additionally, If PB is from 22 July, and maybe the rest of extras from Alchemy, they don't glue with old mix from 1983. They can glue with stereo 2010 mix from Blu-Ray. So, maybe there is a new alchemy live integrally from 22 July? Guy Fletcher omitted it intentionality? Remember that he said that only new unreleased material is remixed, the rest is remastered, check the difference.
So they edited the extras from the 22nd with the current tracks from the 23rd...
Post by: onceupon84 on September 15, 2023, 06:00:35 PM
Post by: onceupon84 on September 15, 2023, 06:01:23 PM
The version published of SOS from new Rainbow '79 is the same audio than Arena '80.
Check 3'10" on Blu-Ray version and 5'52" on new 21th December version.
Additionally, If PB is from 22 July, and maybe the rest of extras from Alchemy, they don't glue with old mix from 1983. They can glue with stereo 2010 mix from Blu-Ray. So, maybe there is a new alchemy live integrally from 22 July? Guy Fletcher omitted it intentionality? Remember that he said that only new unreleased material is remixed, the rest is remastered, check the difference.
So they edited the extras from the 22nd with the current tracks from the 23rd...
We don't know yet, it is a possibility, or maybe a new Alchemy full from 22th.
Post by: JF on September 15, 2023, 06:24:50 PM
It is just strange to put out a full boxset of live recordings of almost evey DS tour and leave the biggest tour with the best selling album out. :think
Because this is a "live records" box similar to the previous "studio records" boxes.
But with an extra like the Rainbow 79 and extra stuff in the other records.
They could had put as an extra one from the BIA tour but, I prefer the Rainbow 79!
they could have put both ! ;D
Post by: cannibals on September 15, 2023, 06:44:39 PM
My point! Why leave 85/86 out???It is just strange to put out a full boxset of live recordings of almost evey DS tour and leave the biggest tour with the best selling album out. :think
Because this is a "live records" box similar to the previous "studio records" boxes.
But with an extra like the Rainbow 79 and extra stuff in the other records.
They could had put as an extra one from the BIA tour but, I prefer the Rainbow 79!
they could have put both ! ;D
Perhaps MK or JI will give an interview when the album is out or do you think they will pas on let's say any promo stuff around the first new DS album in years??
Post by: Dutchessy on September 15, 2023, 07:27:23 PM
Post by: cannibals on September 15, 2023, 07:42:40 PM
Probably they will do some DS gigs to promote. :)Good one ;D ;D ;D
An interview perhaps
Post by: Brunno Nunes on September 15, 2023, 07:44:15 PM
Post by: Knopflerfan on September 15, 2023, 09:54:42 PM
If you are on Instagram there is a clip from Sultans from the Rainbow and it sounds really really good.
I've managed to download the three 'sampler' tracks from the Rainbow in 1979 (DTTWL, LW & SOS) and they are all very awesome....
Post by: herlock on September 15, 2023, 10:11:30 PM
Yet, epic versions of Lions, News, WDYTYRG, Angel of Mercy, the first version of TR, Skateway... would be awesome to have in great quality!
Post by: jbaent on September 15, 2023, 10:16:32 PM
The version published of SOS from new Rainbow '79 is the same audio than Arena '80.
Check 3'10" on Blu-Ray version and 5'52" on new 21th December version.
Additionally, If PB is from 22 July, and maybe the rest of extras from Alchemy, they don't glue with old mix from 1983. They can glue with stereo 2010 mix from Blu-Ray. So, maybe there is a new alchemy live integrally from 22 July? Guy Fletcher omitted it intentionality? Remember that he said that only new unreleased material is remixed, the rest is remastered, check the difference.
So they edited the extras from the 22nd with the current tracks from the 23rd...
We don't know yet, it is a possibility, or maybe a new Alchemy full from 22th.
No, Guy says the previous record has been just remastered and the new addition remixed.
Post by: Dutchessy on September 15, 2023, 10:16:50 PM
Everybody misses something from the BIA tour, but nobody seems to miss something from the OL tour...
Yet, epic versions of Lions, News, WDYTYRG, Angel of Mercy, the first version of TR, Skateway... would be awesome to have in great quality!
Yeah, one of the Wiesbaden shows would be awesome
Post by: jbaent on September 15, 2023, 10:18:08 PM
Everybody misses something from the BIA tour, but nobody seems to miss something from the OL tour...
Yet, epic versions of Lions, News, WDYTYRG, Angel of Mercy, the first version of TR, Skateway... would be awesome to have in great quality!
Yeah
My favourite DS tour.
Post by: Robson on September 15, 2023, 10:30:16 PM
Post by: the visitor on September 16, 2023, 12:11:06 AM
My point! Why leave 85/86 out???It is just strange to put out a full boxset of live recordings of almost evey DS tour and leave the biggest tour with the best selling album out. :think
Because this is a "live records" box similar to the previous "studio records" boxes.
But with an extra like the Rainbow 79 and extra stuff in the other records.
They could had put as an extra one from the BIA tour but, I prefer the Rainbow 79!
they could have put both ! ;D
Perhaps MK or JI will give an interview when the album is out or do you think they will pas on let's say any promo stuff around the first new DS album in years??
Couple of possible reasons
1/ all the stuff on the new boxset is taken from sources in the direct control of the label, no additional licensing and hence cost required. Most of the BIA soundboard recordings rest in the hands of other commercial entities be that Channel 4 for Wembley or Westwood 1 Radio network in the States.
2/ That the BIA 40th anniversary is only a couple of years away and they are planning something as part of that.
I hope for the latter. But am much more than happy with what we are going to get. Plenty of easily accessible high quality vinyl boots for BIA tour with top sound in the interim. I'm thankful
Post by: herlock on September 16, 2023, 12:22:20 AM
I know many people here think that TOL was better in 85, with a full intro and shecter guitar...
But I can't help loving these OES tour versions of TOL. The pensa sound is soooo romantic, many people say it is the wrong guitar for the song, but I just love it. Munich 91 is my ultimate favourite, I hope we'll get a very good one...
Post by: the visitor on September 16, 2023, 12:39:06 AM
Actually the track I am more eager to listen to is TOL from 92 - first ever soundboard!
I know many people here think that TOL was better in 85, with a full intro and shecter guitar...
But I can't help loving these OES tour versions of TOL. The pensa sound is soooo romantic, many people say it is the wrong guitar for the song, but I just love it. Munich 91 is my ultimate favourite, I hope we'll get a very good one...
Fully agree
Post by: Brunno Nunes on September 16, 2023, 02:42:43 AM
Actually the track I am more eager to listen to is TOL from 92 - first ever soundboard!
I know many people here think that TOL was better in 85, with a full intro and shecter guitar...
But I can't help loving these OES tour versions of TOL. The pensa sound is soooo romantic, many people say it is the wrong guitar for the song, but I just love it. Munich 91 is my ultimate favourite, I hope we'll get a very good one...
Personally, I can feel great pleasure in appreciating all aspects of TOL, whenever this song is played it is an event, each one has its own particular beauty. The OES versions have a very nostalgic atmosphere, what the BIA tour versions give me are other sensations and this is the case with each version on home tour, my favorites are the 1982 ones, the beginning of the LOG tour has an energy that takes me far away, difficult to explain in words.
I'm very curious to hear the other songs that didn't make it onto OTN in 1993, especially When It Comes to You, which live in 1992 is another dimension, a charm that only Dire Straits is capable of.
Post by: ds1984 on September 16, 2023, 10:26:23 AM
I did not remember Mark performing drunk at the Rainbow concert.
Well interesting info. Where does it comes from?
This live boxed is so promising that, apart for PONO, I don't care much about what is missing.
This is a real surprise, the kind of thing you are hoping for but do not really believe it will happen.
And now I hope and believe there will more live things out to come.
Post by: cannibals on September 16, 2023, 11:24:52 AM
Post by: JF on September 16, 2023, 01:57:42 PM
Everybody misses something from the BIA tour, but nobody seems to miss something from the OL tour...
Yet, epic versions of Lions, News, WDYTYRG, Angel of Mercy, the first version of TR, Skateway... would be awesome to have in great quality!
+1000 :thumbsup
Post by: herlock on September 16, 2023, 02:25:45 PM
Hi everybody,Comes from my (drunk) mind 🤣
I did not remember Mark performing drunk at the Rainbow concert.
Well interesting info. Where does it comes from?
This live boxed is so promising that, apart for PONO, I don't care much about what is missing.
This is a real surprise, the kind of thing you are hoping for but do not really believe it will happen.
And now I hope and believe there will more live things out to come.
I have no evidence whatsoever, but watching the BBC documentary I really had the impression that Mark had been drinking too much... Very joyful, playful, fast...
Post by: Robson on September 16, 2023, 06:05:56 PM
Portobello Belle and Twisting By The Pool were from 22nd July 1983. Industrial Disease was from the 23rd. I’m not convinced all of Alchemy was from the 23rd.
I don't know if we will ever know the correct dates for aLCHEMY. Except Solid Rock July 23rd and now Guy is not sure about the date. I know that I know nothing :think
Post by: jbaent on September 16, 2023, 06:53:13 PM
GF:
Portobello Belle and Twisting By The Pool were from 22nd July 1983. Industrial Disease was from the 23rd. I’m not convinced all of Alchemy was from the 23rd.
I don't know if we will ever know the correct dates for aLCHEMY. Except Solid Rock July 23rd and now Guy is not sure about the date. I know that I know nothing :think
Alchemy is from the 23rd night, we have the audience recording and match the Alchemy record except for the last seconds of Solid rock.
Post by: Robson on September 16, 2023, 07:12:11 PM
GF:
Portobello Belle and Twisting By The Pool were from 22nd July 1983. Industrial Disease was from the 23rd. I’m not convinced all of Alchemy was from the 23rd.
I don't know if we will ever know the correct dates for aLCHEMY. Except Solid Rock July 23rd and now Guy is not sure about the date. I know that I know nothing :think
Alchemy is from the 23rd night, we have the audience recording and match the Alchemy record except for the last seconds of Solid rock.
Exactly! Why Guy Fletcher sows uncertainty ::)
Post by: jbaent on September 16, 2023, 07:15:22 PM
Post by: jbaent on September 16, 2023, 07:16:26 PM
GF:
Portobello Belle and Twisting By The Pool were from 22nd July 1983. Industrial Disease was from the 23rd. I’m not convinced all of Alchemy was from the 23rd.
I don't know if we will ever know the correct dates for aLCHEMY. Except Solid Rock July 23rd and now Guy is not sure about the date. I know that I know nothing :think
Alchemy is from the 23rd night, we have the audience recording and match the Alchemy record except for the last seconds of Solid rock.
Exactly! Why Guy Fletcher sows uncertainty ::)
Because he doesn't know and probably nobody around him knows neither.
Post by: JF on September 16, 2023, 07:20:47 PM
Looks like Portobello is again cut :disbelief
oh no !!! :disbelief :disbelief :disbelief
Post by: JF on September 16, 2023, 07:22:07 PM
Post by: herlock on September 16, 2023, 07:23:35 PM
Looks like Portobello is again cut :disbeliefOuch. I really hope this is a mistake. The full version is closer to 14 minutes than to 7. Even with skipping the band intros, there's is no way it could be under 11 minutes! Gosh, why can't you just put everything and let us decide which parts we want to listen or not?
Post by: Robson on September 16, 2023, 07:25:16 PM
Looks like Portobello is again cut :disbelief
Noooo! :disbelief
A waste of space on a vinyl record
Side four:
Two Young Lovers
Portobello Belle
Post by: herlock on September 16, 2023, 07:26:34 PM
oh wait... maybe the "rest" of the song is on the TOL "intro" :thinkYes, I was thinking of this too, even though this is would be od.. How long is TOL? We can't see...
Post by: onceupon84 on September 16, 2023, 07:34:20 PM
Looks like Portobello is again cut :disbelief
Pay attention....
SOS is 10:54, like Alchemy 2010 new remix for Blu-ray! So the "new" 2023 alchemy will be 2010 remix? I was thinking on that days ago... This is a "modern" live sound compared with 1984 standard version.
PB outro maybe is on TOL, yes...
EDIT: Not sure of this... all tracks marked as "remastered 2023" and new tracks "mixed 2023". If it is true, can be a bit strange mix... PB from MNF 2022 has not the sound of Alchemy 1984 version... TR from MFN (1988 & 2022) too... And alchemy 2010 version is closer to this two last remixed tracks...
Post by: onceupon84 on September 16, 2023, 08:07:19 PM
Post by: Marnix on September 16, 2023, 08:12:17 PM
Post by: herlock on September 16, 2023, 08:14:39 PM
So, say farewell to the tasty licks exchanges between Mark and Mel, and the band intro? 😭 Guy, what were you thinking exactly??
Post by: onceupon84 on September 16, 2023, 08:22:27 PM
Why are Telegraph road and Solid rock swapped on the new Alchemy??
I told this to Guy in his forum.
Post by: Robson on September 16, 2023, 08:30:08 PM
Solid Rock and Telegraph Road?
This is a different order :think
Post by: onceupon84 on September 16, 2023, 08:46:23 PM
The length of 7.22 is pretty consistent with "the extended intro" description. On Paris bootleg, taking 7.22 from the beginning ends up pretty much where the cut versions end...
So, say farewell to the tasty licks exchanges between Mark and Mel, and the band intro? 😭 Guy, what were you thinking exactly??
Completely true with July 22th version too
Post by: jbaent on September 16, 2023, 09:00:57 PM
The length of 7.22 is pretty consistent with "the extended intro" description. On Paris bootleg, taking 7.22 from the beginning ends up pretty much where the cut versions end...
So, say farewell to the tasty licks exchanges between Mark and Mel, and the band intro? 😭 Guy, what were you thinking exactly??
Looks like they only added the intro, damm
Post by: onceupon84 on September 16, 2023, 09:07:34 PM
The length of 7.22 is pretty consistent with "the extended intro" description. On Paris bootleg, taking 7.22 from the beginning ends up pretty much where the cut versions end...
So, say farewell to the tasty licks exchanges between Mark and Mel, and the band intro? 😭 Guy, what were you thinking exactly??
Looks like they only added the intro, damm
Can you upload all the lengths from Alchemy, please?
Post by: jbaent on September 16, 2023, 09:14:03 PM
They always find a way to spoil good things.
Post by: herlock on September 16, 2023, 09:19:30 PM
Post by: herlock on September 16, 2023, 09:30:45 PM
Post by: jf9081 on September 16, 2023, 09:31:28 PM
my hope
Post by: herlock on September 16, 2023, 09:33:46 PM
nooooo! :disbelief Could it be that he cut a bit of the long introduction (band presentation, etc.) in order to get to the final coda?No way. The band intro is rather at the end and doesn't take that long. Even without the intro, 7'22 would not take you as far as the coda. This is what we already have + longer intro, period. A wasted opportunity...
my hope
Post by: jbaent on September 16, 2023, 09:46:19 PM
nooooo! :disbelief Could it be that he cut a bit of the long introduction (band presentation, etc.) in order to get to the final coda?
my hope
No
Portobello with the intro, cut exactly at the same place than in the MFN compilation match with that length so, there is no band intro, there is no guitar and sax solos duel...
I wonder how in heaven is possible they never do something well, totally well.
Post by: rmarques821 on September 16, 2023, 10:02:54 PM
Post by: herlock on September 16, 2023, 10:06:25 PM
For God sake, we want everything there is, from the first nanosecond to the last. Is it that difficult to understand?
Post by: onceupon84 on September 16, 2023, 10:15:47 PM
For TOL, that's also means that even though they use the 2010 master, they still cut Mark's speech about the Spanish city. They could have taken everything that is on the film, and complete it with the missing parts that are on the album: the longer R&J intro, the "Thank you" before Sultans, etc...
For God sake, we want everything there is, from the first nanosecond to the last. Is it that difficult to understand?
You're no right, 2010 mix has the Spanish city speech. All TOL intro is on Two Young Lovers chapter.
Post by: jf9081 on September 16, 2023, 10:17:27 PM
after so much enthusiasm the first BIG disappointment.
I've been waiting my whole life for the full version of Portobello Belle,
I don't understand what the reason for the cut is.
Opportunity missed forever!!
Post by: onceupon84 on September 16, 2023, 10:20:23 PM
I can not believe it!!
after so much enthusiasm the first BIG disappointment.
I've been waiting my whole life for the full version of Portobello Belle,
I don't understand what the reason for the cut is.
Opportunity missed forever!!
This is the same that I feel...
Post by: herlock on September 16, 2023, 10:25:29 PM
Yes, the 2010 mix has indeed the Spanish city speech on the film, I never said otherwise. What I mean is, given the length of the new audio track, the speech is cut from it, even though the source is 2010.For TOL, that's also means that even though they use the 2010 master, they still cut Mark's speech about the Spanish city. They could have taken everything that is on the film, and complete it with the missing parts that are on the album: the longer R&J intro, the "Thank you" before Sultans, etc...
For God sake, we want everything there is, from the first nanosecond to the last. Is it that difficult to understand?
You're no right, 2010 mix has the Spanish city speech. All TOL intro is on Two Young Lovers chapter.
And although yes, the Blu Ray stupidly puts TOL intro in the Two Young Lovers track, this is obviously not the case in this new audio release: TWL is a short as on the original album, and you have PB in between!
Post by: onceupon84 on September 16, 2023, 10:25:49 PM
2010 version is too compressed, but it is not mix issue, it is mastering issue, they can balance it.
Maybe both alchemy nights were remixed "definitively" in 2010 and Guy take it from vault first to MFN 2022 compilation and now for this?
Normal procedure is to get all recordings well mixed and saved, then cut or made edits for different uses.
EDIT: Guy mixed 2010 version? Or Chuck?
Post by: Dutchessy on September 16, 2023, 10:28:12 PM
What a dissapointment... We asked him last year... its all about the last part... sigh
Post by: onceupon84 on September 16, 2023, 10:28:45 PM
Leave 1984 Alchemy "as is" and mix the new tracks in 1984 "old sound style" (maybe both complete nights were mixed originally in 1984 "style"?)
Post by: the visitor on September 16, 2023, 10:38:48 PM
Still grateful. Stop moaning
Post by: onceupon84 on September 16, 2023, 10:42:33 PM
Here's a theory. Why don't we wait until the box set is released and actually hear the tracks rather than jumping to conclusions and moaning about what isn't and is on the tracks.
Still grateful. Stop moaning
We've got a killjoy in the forum ;D ;D ;D ;D
Post by: herlock on September 16, 2023, 10:43:49 PM
Here's a theory. Why don't we wait until the box set is released rather than jumping to conclusions and moaninf about what isn't and is on the tracks.There is no need to listen to it to conclude with 100% certainty that a 14 minutes song cannot fit in a 7 minutes track without being heavily cut. Especially when the length (7'22) exactly matches the description ("Extended intro", that is to say, no outro).
Still grateful. Stop moaning
And I will certainly not stop "moaning" just because you ask me to. This is a wasted opportunity, I can't see any excuse for this. We have every reason to "moan", even though this release is very appreciated on the whole...
Post by: herlock on September 16, 2023, 10:45:45 PM
The guitar and sax duel was probably not recorded when you ask Guy ::)Everything would have been recorded but the PB outro?? C'mon !
What a dissapointment... We asked him last year... its all about the last part... sigh
Post by: herlock on September 16, 2023, 10:47:47 PM
Listening to 2010 SOS and then 2022 PB they sound very similar to stay together.Too compressed, you mean brickwalled? Really The blu Ray sounds really awesome on my hi-fi, much better than the album, lots of details... This is very obvious on TOL and TR.
2010 version is too compressed, but it is not mix issue, it is mastering issue, they can balance it.
Maybe both alchemy nights were remixed "definitively" in 2010 and Guy take it from vault first to MFN 2022 compilation and now for this?
Normal procedure is to get all recordings well mixed and saved, then cut or made edits for different uses.
EDIT: Guy mixed 2010 version? Or Chuck?
Post by: ds1984 on September 16, 2023, 10:48:47 PM
Maybe the provided timing are just plain wrong.
So better is to wait to be able to listen to the real thing before moaning.
Post by: Dutchessy on September 16, 2023, 10:50:19 PM
The guitar and sax duel was probably not recorded when you ask Guy ::)Everything would have been recorded but the PB outro?? C'mon !
What a dissapointment... We asked him last year... its all about the last part... sigh
Sarcasme... Guy gave us that answer when asked about PONO...
Post by: herlock on September 16, 2023, 10:54:22 PM
Well, in the case of PONO, this is indeed possible. PONO was not played every night in Paris, and we have no clue which night(s) were recorded out of 7. For this, I give him the benefit of the doubt...The guitar and sax duel was probably not recorded when you ask Guy ::)Everything would have been recorded but the PB outro?? C'mon !
What a dissapointment... We asked him last year... its all about the last part... sigh
Sarcasme... Guy gave us that answer when asked about PONO...
But if they recorded a night, for sure, they recorded the full night. Wouldn't make sense otherwise!
Post by: onceupon84 on September 16, 2023, 10:55:58 PM
Listening to 2010 SOS and then 2022 PB they sound very similar to stay together.Too compressed, you mean brickwalled? Really The blu Ray sounds really awesome on my hi-fi, much better than the album, lots of details... This is very obvious on TOL and TR.
2010 version is too compressed, but it is not mix issue, it is mastering issue, they can balance it.
Maybe both alchemy nights were remixed "definitively" in 2010 and Guy take it from vault first to MFN 2022 compilation and now for this?
Normal procedure is to get all recordings well mixed and saved, then cut or made edits for different uses.
EDIT: Guy mixed 2010 version? Or Chuck?
Right, brickwalled.
But 2010 mix it's much better and modern, I'm with you.
Post by: herlock on September 16, 2023, 10:56:50 PM
I agree with the visitor.That's why I wrote that I hope that this is a mistake.
Maybe the provided timing are just plain wrong.
So better is to wait to be able to listen to the real thing before moaning.
But I highly doubt it.
All the timings are consistant with what we already have, and PB length matches its description. A mistake would make things inconsistent...
So, sorry, still moaning.
Post by: onceupon84 on September 17, 2023, 12:00:36 AM
-Altered tracklist (TR and SR swapped) - I think it can be because of vinyl edition... but maybe another real mistake.
-Extended versions of TR, SR and GH (it is a joke?) - I think they might say 'unreleased versions of ID, TBTP and PB'
-Full length performance of PB (edited in 1998!) another joke??? - They consider outro and musicians presentation with no value.
Remember that MFN 2022 streamable edition was corrected (alternate SOS, TBTP non remix and TR studio version with unedited outro were retired and well replaced).
The YT promo video for this new box-set shows TWICE "ENCORES" -another BUG- they might say OTN and Encores
Today they retired SOS Rainbow '79 promo video on YT because they put SOS audio from alchemy...
All the information we have about this release has a lot of mistakes.
Post by: mschaap on September 17, 2023, 09:09:04 AM
This would be a waste, the 2010 mix is better but sounds too much compressed, however the latter I would attribute to the mastering proces. So remastring in 2023 would be prefect, if only they would have used the right mix....
Post by: Marnix on September 17, 2023, 09:45:16 AM
Post by: onceupon84 on September 17, 2023, 09:51:55 AM
This album is terribly important for all fans, I don't know the reasons why it was not released in its entirety in 1984, I suppose because at that time it was not time to publish the 3 songs that were left out (commercial decision, or MK's?), since CD existed as a medium and it was easy to fit all the tracks together.
The correct option, in my opinion, would have been to remix the entire original album in 2023 and include the 3 songs in their entirety, the entire concert without cuts, include TOL's speech, include fragments of R&J that are not even in the VHS-BD edition nor has it ever been in audio, except in the Goin' Home bootleg that takes its sources from a recording with a more trimmed version of the alchemy but also remixed in another way (it can be found in Wolfgang's Vault), evidently, there has been someone who had access to the original master at the time. Then I would give the option to include the missing songs from either of the two nights, although preferably they would be those from the night of the 23rd. Except for erroneous fragments (end of the SR of the 23rd), I would stop making edits or cuts.
If what we are going to find is the alchemy released in 1984 with songs mixed in a more modern way (as Chuck did in 2010, Guy in 2022, or even as PB and TR mixed in 1988) and without well-made transitions ( ID & EL, PB & TOL...) because it's going to look like a sticky record. And the transitions can be done well both using the themes of the 23rd and those of the 22nd, that is easy for a sound engineer and even more so today.
Every hour that passes I lose hope that what is announced on Apple Music is wrong, both the durations and the description of the songs (remaster vs remix, extended intro...). And if they have really remixed the entire album, as I think is not going to happen, I would like to know who is responsible for so many errors in labelling the songs, it does not seem like a serious music group, now all that remains is to leave a good legacy of what I will say straits was, and in the way he deserves it.
I don't know what will happen with OTN, I prefer not to think about it.
About Rainbow '79 I think it's outstanding, things as they are.
EDIT: The only hope I have left is that in 1984 they had mixed the entire concert, with the small cuts that we know, a complete alchemy prepared for a live album, with two of the three songs that were left out that were from the previous night, to the just like what happened with the end of SR. But that would imply that they were not labelled as "mixed in 2023", but rather "previously unreleased".
Post by: herlock on September 17, 2023, 11:14:05 AM
The thing had to be released on a double LP, that is to say, it had to last less than 90 minutes. Impossible to release everything from a 2-hour concert. I think that their choice of songs to be removed was rather sound. ID and TBTP were the weakest of the set. PB was outstanding but very long jamming, they couldn't afford the luxury to put 14 minutes of that jamming on a LP, so they dropped it all together, but corrected this partially on the MFN compilation...
For OTN they packed the CD, fitting it to the last drop. Putting more would have required a double CD, and they couldn't do it for obscure contractual reasons, so they had to make a choice. Hence the removal of the major songs that had already been released on Alchemy (and arguably, Alchemy versions were better). They could have gone one step further and replace RAJ and PI with songs from OES, such as Fade to Black or When it comes to you, but I guess that for Mark, not putting RAJ was unthinkable 😂
So I'm not that mad with what they did in the past, but I'm mad at what they do today. They don't have any such constraints today, so the amateurish description and the butcher's job on Portobello Belle (and we will certainly discover more irritating stuff as time goes by) have no excuse whatsoever!
Post by: rmarques821 on September 17, 2023, 11:28:44 AM
Post by: herlock on September 17, 2023, 11:41:17 AM
I thought Guy was more humble than that. He allowed himself to throw the outro of PB in the dustbin based on... his own taste? About an era in which he was not even yet part of the band? Sounds quite arrogant to me...
And I'm scared about his answer about Paris. He says that none of the newly mixed stuff is from Paris, ok, but that some of the older stuff might be (he is not even sure). What does this mean? That some of the old OTN tracks from Nîmes and Rotterdam were maybe replaced by Paris versions? Or that he doesn't even remember than OTN was recorded only in Nîmes and Rotterdam??
All this is very blur...
Post by: jf9081 on September 17, 2023, 11:41:24 AM
Guy confirmed it on his forum. No extended Portobello Belle, only the intro. :disbelief :disbelief :disbelief
yes I asked.. and it's really a disappointment... you say for the performance.. maybe there were marked errors in the execution? so why not choose the evening of the 23rd? from the bootgle we know it is perfect.
MYSTERY!
Post by: Marnix on September 17, 2023, 11:52:39 AM
"it was purely my decision based on performances"!!!
I thought Guy was more humble than that. He allowed himself to throw the outro of PB in the dustbin based on... his own taste? About an era in which he was not even yet part of the band? Sounds quite arrogant to me...
And I'm scared about his answer about Paris. He says that none of the newly mixed stuff is from Paris, ok, but that some of the older stuff might be (he is not even sure). What does this mean? That some of the old OTN tracks from Nîmes and Rotterdam were maybe replaced by Paris versions? Or that he doesn't even remember than OTN was recorded only in Nîmes and Rotterdam??
All this is very blur...
Or maybe the multitracks are not corrected labeled by date and location. Maybe that’s why Guy can’t confirm what he used from which night?
Post by: dmg on September 17, 2023, 12:11:32 PM
"it was purely my decision based on performances"!!!
I thought Guy was more humble than that. He allowed himself to throw the outro of PB in the dustbin based on... his own taste? About an era in which he was not even yet part of the band? Sounds quite arrogant to me...
And I'm scared about his answer about Paris. He says that none of the newly mixed stuff is from Paris, ok, but that some of the older stuff might be (he is not even sure). What does this mean? That some of the old OTN tracks from Nîmes and Rotterdam were maybe replaced by Paris versions? Or that he doesn't even remember than OTN was recorded only in Nîmes and Rotterdam??
All this is very blur...
It's not a track I go to very often I must say. Is it at all possible someone in the band makes a mistake(s) and this is why it isn't included? Also, that the other night isn't well enough performed either.
That answer is peculiar to say the least! The description says there are tracks from Paris and Guy has talked about the Paris tapes. Then again there are a number of mistakes in that description! Amateur hour once again at Knopfler HQ.
Post by: the visitor on September 17, 2023, 01:57:37 PM
You guys need to chill on Portobello I
would suggest. It's not actually that interesting in the scheme of things, just a bit of noodling between MK and Mel Collins. I barely listen to it. And if I want to, I'll go to a bootleg like Tokyo in near perfect sound.
Post by: rmarques821 on September 17, 2023, 02:29:31 PM
Well Guy's forum appears to be down now. Perhaps he got fed up with people *moaning*It's not about Portobello Belle, it could be any other song. It's about the modus operandi of having the possibility of giving us something and choosing not to.
You guys need to chill on Portobello I
would suggest. It's not actually that interesting in the scheme of things, just a bit of noodling between MK and Mel Collins. I barely listen to it. And if I want to, I'll go to a bootleg like Tokyo in near perfect sound.
Post by: jbaent on September 17, 2023, 03:22:29 PM
It's choosing between doing things right or going it wrong, and choosing wrong always.
Post by: peterromer on September 17, 2023, 03:45:15 PM
Marketing Marketing Marketing.
Post by: jbaent on September 17, 2023, 03:51:32 PM
Guy confirmed it on his forum. No extended Portobello Belle, only the intro. :disbelief :disbelief :disbelief
yes I asked.. and it's really a disappointment... you say for the performance.. maybe there were marked errors in the execution? so why not choose the evening of the 23rd? from the bootgle we know it is perfect.
MYSTERY!
No mistery.
It's just additional work.
They had the Portobello of the 22nd previously mixed, easiest thing was mix the intro, which is easy as there is very little happening in that intro, and paste it to the previously mixed cut version.
It just save time and work.
I have no doubt.
Post by: jbaent on September 17, 2023, 03:53:08 PM
Well Guy's forum appears to be down now. Perhaps he got fed up with people *moaning*It's not about Portobello Belle, it could be any other song. It's about the modus operandi of having the possibility of giving us something and choosing not to.
You guys need to chill on Portobello I
would suggest. It's not actually that interesting in the scheme of things, just a bit of noodling between MK and Mel Collins. I barely listen to it. And if I want to, I'll go to a bootleg like Tokyo in near perfect sound.
Exactly.
If you are realising a special edition of Alchemy with all the tracks, do it with all tracks in full and fresh remixed.
This way is just save time and get the money.
Post by: JF on September 17, 2023, 04:42:44 PM
I should listen to this instead... Paris 20 june which was on the 1988 MFN edition, mixed with the bootleg sound
https://youtu.be/lZbTVw5JeGc
I know this is not the 22/23 july Alchemy cocnert, but this version is just... oh my god !
oh Guy, you just had to take the orignal multitrack from 88 and adding the full outro...
I was already not found with Guy's job in Mark's career, but now, reading his judgement about what should be relaesed what shoulkd be not... I definitley will hate him !
Post by: kaleo74 on September 17, 2023, 05:08:33 PM
Well Guy's forum appears to be down now. Perhaps he got fed up with people *moaning*
You guys need to chill on Portobello I
would suggest. It's not actually that interesting in the scheme of things, just a bit of noodling between MK and Mel Collins. I barely listen to it. And if I want to, I'll go to a bootleg like Tokyo in near perfect sound.
I agree, personally, I think there's "a bit too much" in this song, it's like filler for not much. I love the song, but prolonging it like this doesn't really serve it.
Post by: El Macho on September 17, 2023, 07:19:37 PM
Well Guy's forum appears to be down now. Perhaps he got fed up with people *moaning*
You guys need to chill on Portobello I
would suggest. It's not actually that interesting in the scheme of things, just a bit of noodling between MK and Mel Collins. I barely listen to it. And if I want to, I'll go to a bootleg like Tokyo in near perfect sound.
I agree, personally, I think there's "a bit too much" in this song, it's like filler for not much. I love the song, but prolonging it like this doesn't really serve it.
I think the same . The duel between Mark and Mel Collins isn’t that much worth.
Post by: JF on September 17, 2023, 07:24:48 PM
Well Guy's forum appears to be down now. Perhaps he got fed up with people *moaning*
You guys need to chill on Portobello I
would suggest. It's not actually that interesting in the scheme of things, just a bit of noodling between MK and Mel Collins. I barely listen to it. And if I want to, I'll go to a bootleg like Tokyo in near perfect sound.
I agree, personally, I think there's "a bit too much" in this song, it's like filler for not much. I love the song, but prolonging it like this doesn't really serve it.
I think the same . The duel between Mark and Mel Collins isn’t that much worth.
on the contrary I find it pure gold imho, and I can listen to it over and over
perfect build up, and a highlight of the concerts on this tour (imho again)
juste a matter of taste of course
Post by: ds1984 on September 17, 2023, 07:39:50 PM
Post by: Robson on September 17, 2023, 08:01:13 PM
Post by: Marnix on September 17, 2023, 08:13:49 PM
I am really happy that they are opening the vaults with these extra songs and we are even getting more probably
Post by: localhero1986 on September 17, 2023, 08:21:04 PM
I wonder if, after a DS studio box, MK solo studio box and DS live box, a MK live box will ever see the light of day. I’d love a proper full length GH tour gig with rarities as No can do, Water of love, Long highway, Are we in trouble now AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT EXCLUSE OR CUT OFF DONE WITH BONAPARTE BECAUSE OF THE BAND INTRO. ;D ;D ;D
Post by: Brunno Nunes on September 17, 2023, 09:26:26 PM
Post by: herlock on September 17, 2023, 09:46:24 PM
I think that the judgment whether PB Live in 1983 was too long is something unnecessary, personal taste is subjective, however there are those who don't like it, there are so many others who love it and we are talking about art, the band rehearsed and performed PB that way, reaching 15:30 minutes long, like one of the nights in Paris in June 1983, that's how they did it and delivered it to the public. Without a doubt it was one of the highlights of the show, the band was introduced at the end of the duet between Mark and Mel, that was beautiful. I really believe that out of respect for the art, the band's artistic work at that historical moment, in respect for the historical memory of what is probably Dire Straits' most legendary show, they should now deliver a more worthy product and with the height and weight that the Alchemy has it for the Dire Straits story.
My thoughts exactly.
As I said, this is simple. When you release a concert, just release it from the first nanosecond to the last. There are no more space constraints nowadays, so don't think. Don't judge. Don't cut. Don't remove. Let the listener decide whether to skip or fast forward a track or not, this is entirely subjective.
I don't give a sh** about Guy's opinion on a given performance. All the more that he was not even part of the band in the Alchemy era. His job is to extract, remaster, mix the content in the best possible conditions, using his technical skills, like the fine job he has done for the Rainbow 79 gig. Not to decide what we have the right to listen or not. I hate censorship, and this is a form of censorship.
Some people have expressed here that the PB jamming is not their thing. You have every right to feel this way, and nobody is forcing you to listen to 15 minutes of such jamming. But please be respecful of people who feel otherwise. Releasing the entire PB would not take anything away from you, you could just skip it. The reverse is not true.
Post by: herlock on September 17, 2023, 10:01:58 PM
Indeed sad it’s only an extended intro to PB instead of full length… Great song and the fade out on MFN compilation always made me eager how it really ends. We do have some recording, but in terms of audio quality it’s so-so.Well this audience recording of PB has outstanding quality. Almost sounds like a soundboard. Anyway given Guy's censorship, this is the best you'll ever get, so enjoy it...
I wonder if, after a DS studio box, MK solo studio box and DS live box, a MK live box will ever see the light of day. I’d love a proper full length GH tour gig with rarities as No can do, Water of love, Long highway, Are we in trouble now AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT EXCLUSE OR CUT OFF DONE WITH BONAPARTE BECAUSE OF THE BAND INTRO. ;D ;D ;D
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9xKe6vCO7s&si=KSmh0Ntm9Y8soUA5
Post by: JF on September 17, 2023, 10:40:54 PM
I think that the judgment whether PB Live in 1983 was too long is something unnecessary, personal taste is subjective, however there are those who don't like it, there are so many others who love it and we are talking about art, the band rehearsed and performed PB that way, reaching 15:30 minutes long, like one of the nights in Paris in June 1983, that's how they did it and delivered it to the public. Without a doubt it was one of the highlights of the show, the band was introduced at the end of the duet between Mark and Mel, that was beautiful. I really believe that out of respect for the art, the band's artistic work at that historical moment, in respect for the historical memory of what is probably Dire Straits' most legendary show, they should now deliver a more worthy product and with the height and weight that the Alchemy has it for the Dire Straits story.
:clap :clap :thumbsup
Post by: Brunno Nunes on September 17, 2023, 10:43:13 PM
I don't know if I'm mistaken, but it seems that Guy had claimed that he had problems with the master of the MFN collection from 1988 and that's why the PB version from Paris in June 83 was not used, putting the version from 22 July 83, but suddenly it appears this live remix version of TR, was it from the 1988 master when the remix was made...?
By the way, what an exquisite job they did on this version, truly incredible, I hope they do something of this nature with all the Alchemy tracks.
It seems to me that some work was done that further enhanced this remix made in 1988, I'm just listening to it now, and that's what it seems to me
Post by: Brunno Nunes on September 17, 2023, 10:53:52 PM
Only now did I realize that in the Streaming service, in this case, I use Deezer, they changed the TR version in the release of the MFN compilation (2022) and added the live remix version of the 1988 CD, has anyone noticed?
I don't know if I'm mistaken, but it seems that Guy had claimed that he had problems with the master of the MFN collection from 1988 and that's why the PB version from Paris in June 83 was not used, putting the version from 22 July 83, but suddenly it appears this live remix version of TR, was it from the 1988 master when the remix was made...?
By the way, what an exquisite job they did on this version, truly incredible, I hope they do something of this nature with all the Alchemy tracks.
It seems to me that some work was done that further enhanced this remix made in 1988, I'm just listening to it now, and that's what it seems to me
The tenth track on the 1988 MFN CD is Telegraph Road (Live) (Remix) and is exactly 12:00 min, the same as the one on the 2022 version, previously, a studio version with a "frankstain" introduction and ending without fadeout.
Anyone who can, please listen to this version of Telegraph Road (Live) (Remix) from the aforementioned MFN (2022) on Streaming and compare it with the version released in 1988, apparently there is some improvement. If this happened, then they have the masters and could have included the original version recorded in Paris, June 83, which is undoubtedly even more beautiful than the one from July 22, 83.
Post by: JF on September 17, 2023, 11:10:48 PM
we knew that record companies made weird decisions too, regarding diierents versions of the releases (boxset, bonus tracks, etc...)
we knew that MK's managment was amateurish regarding communication, social media, tour venues, etc...
but know, above all of that, we have Guy Fletcher who decides what is "good" or "bad" performance of Dire Straits, before he was in the band !!!
I feel a lot of anger against him
I can't understand his decisions. I don't care having SOS or TR from 92, we have plenty soundoard recordings from this tour
but we don't have any soundboard recording from LOG tour except Alchemy. And when we finnaly could listen to a proper recording of a song I am wating for almost 20 years, he chooses to cut the outro !! :disbelief
I lost all hope with this DS catalog. there's always someone who find how to ruin the thing
Post by: herlock on September 17, 2023, 11:18:27 PM
we knew that Marks' decisions were always a bit weird regarding setlist, releases, etc...100% agree.
we knew that record companies made weird decisions too, regarding diierents versions of the releases (boxset, bonus tracks, etc...)
we knew that MK's managment was amateurish regarding communication, social media, tour venues, etc...
but know, above all of that, we have Guy Fletcher who decides what is "good" or "bad" performance of Dire Straits, before he was in the band !!!
I feel a lot of anger against him
I can't understand his decisions. I don't care having SOS or TR from 92, we have plenty soundoard recordings from this tour
but we don't have any soundboard recording from LOG tour except Alchemy. And when we finnaly could listen to a proper recording of a song I am wating for almost 20 years, he chooses to cut the outro !! :disbelief
I lost all hope with this DS catalog. there's always someone who find how to ruin the thing
I could have accepted that Mark veto some releases as he has done in the past.
But Guy? Judging performances he didn't contribute to in any way? C'mon!
Post by: the visitor on September 17, 2023, 11:45:08 PM
we knew that Marks' decisions were always a bit weird regarding setlist, releases, etc...100% agree.
we knew that record companies made weird decisions too, regarding diierents versions of the releases (boxset, bonus tracks, etc...)
we knew that MK's managment was amateurish regarding communication, social media, tour venues, etc...
but know, above all of that, we have Guy Fletcher who decides what is "good" or "bad" performance of Dire Straits, before he was in the band !!!
I feel a lot of anger against him
I can't understand his decisions. I don't care having SOS or TR from 92, we have plenty soundoard recordings from this tour
but we don't have any soundboard recording from LOG tour except Alchemy. And when we finnaly could listen to a proper recording of a song I am wating for almost 20 years, he chooses to cut the outro !! :disbelief
I lost all hope with this DS catalog. there's always someone who find how to ruin the thing
I could have accepted that Mark veto some releases as he has done in the past.
But Guy? Judging performances he didn't contribute to in any way? C'mon!
I do understand the frustration but this is all a bit harsh and disrespectful to Guy. I respect that you want to hear the full tracks, but please also appreciate that this is the best thing that has happened in a couple of decades release wise for DS fans and probably as a result of Guy's interface with fans.
He's the Exec Producer and this isn't a bootleg, this is an official live release, and you have to expect even a certain amount of artistic intervention or when to hit the fader when something falls below the quality threshold musically. The bar is set by the producer but I'm quite happy with that. He's Marks right hand man.
The alternative - that we all faced just last week - is we get nothing but repressed old albums. I don't want that.
Ps Still fascinated at the strength of debate on a release we've not even heard yet fully
Post by: ds1984 on September 18, 2023, 12:30:37 AM
And I promise to consider about signing it.
Post by: jbaent on September 18, 2023, 06:09:44 AM
I think that the judgment whether PB Live in 1983 was too long is something unnecessary, personal taste is subjective, however there are those who don't like it, there are so many others who love it and we are talking about art, the band rehearsed and performed PB that way, reaching 15:30 minutes long, like one of the nights in Paris in June 1983, that's how they did it and delivered it to the public. Without a doubt it was one of the highlights of the show, the band was introduced at the end of the duet between Mark and Mel, that was beautiful. I really believe that out of respect for the art, the band's artistic work at that historical moment, in respect for the historical memory of what is probably Dire Straits' most legendary show, they should now deliver a more worthy product and with the height and weight that the Alchemy has it for the Dire Straits story.
My thoughts exactly.
As I said, this is simple. When you release a concert, just release it from the first nanosecond to the last. There are no more space constraints nowadays, so don't think. Don't judge. Don't cut. Don't remove. Let the listener decide whether to skip or fast forward a track or not, this is entirely subjective.
I don't give a sh** about Guy's opinion on a given performance. All the more that he was not even part of the band in the Alchemy era. His job is to extract, remaster, mix the content in the best possible conditions, using his technical skills, like the fine job he has done for the Rainbow 79 gig. Not to decide what we have the right to listen or not. I hate censorship, and this is a form of censorship.
Some people have expressed here that the PB jamming is not their thing. You have every right to feel this way, and nobody is forcing you to listen to 15 minutes of such jamming. But please be respecful of people who feel otherwise. Releasing the entire PB would not take anything away from you, you could just skip it. The reverse is not true.
Totally agree.
This is a.missing chance of release the whole live show that gave birth to a legendary album, like many other great and legendary bands and artists do, but they decided to do a butchery work because, let's be honest, is faster if you just take the original Alchemy and the already remixed Portobello and TRand paste two unmixed tracks and an intro than if you take the whole Hammersmith show from the scratch and mixed everything to give the fans the whole experience as it was for all the people attending the gig
It's just a case of saving time and do as less.sork as possible against doing the things right.
They also did the same with OTN. They just remixed the new tracks and pasted them to the previous released ones that most fans agree sounded bad. Again, is less work just to mix the new tracks instead of remixe everything.
Luckily the box has something done with love and care which is the Rainbow 79 concert. All mixed from scratch and judging by the three tracks available, very well done. It's true that Guy only had to mix four members playing instead the 7 from Alchemy or the 9 from OTN, but at least we have something in the box that it's really well made and for that, thinking how lazy is what they did with the rest, I'm grateful.
What the F... thinking they could had delivered the same without doing no, I'm grateful about this butchering operation too!!!
Post by: Brunno Nunes on September 18, 2023, 06:28:49 AM
Post by: jbaent on September 18, 2023, 06:49:09 AM
Thankfully the icing on the cake for me is Rainbow Theater 79, as it will always be with anything from the original 77/79 lineup, for me it's my particular priority, however, I'm still grateful for the other releases of course, even though they have fully capable of doing something really brilliant and worthy with the historical importance of Alchemy and On the Night and they didn't do it, just out of "laziness", they opted for convenience! :-\
Lazyness/Convenience... doing less work and save time.
Different words, same meaning, lol
Post by: Brunno Nunes on September 18, 2023, 06:58:42 AM
Thankfully the icing on the cake for me is Rainbow Theater 79, as it will always be with anything from the original 77/79 lineup, for me it's my particular priority, however, I'm still grateful for the other releases of course, even though they have fully capable of doing something really brilliant and worthy with the historical importance of Alchemy and On the Night and they didn't do it, just out of "laziness", they opted for convenience! :-\
Lazyness/Convenience... doing less work and save time.
Different words, same meaning, lol
Yes, laziness spoke louder to deliver a product truly living up to its historical importance, once again.
I'm very interested in When it comes to you, I think I love you too much and TOL, but the complete Alchemy would be a matter of honor almost four decades after its release, it's a shame that those responsible for this release don't t have the slightest idea of the historical nature of this show, to delivering to us exactly what was delivered to people that night at the Hammersmith Odeon, this is the experience that we all deserve with what current technology can provide.
Post by: 2manyguitars on September 18, 2023, 09:32:13 AM
Post by: herlock on September 18, 2023, 09:42:42 AM
I'm not an expert but I feel that actually it would have taken less time. Guy had to remix it anyway, since he took the intro. He could have just left his settings as they were and let the song go the end. He would'nt even have hade to cut it and fade it out.
And he said "based of performances", which drives me mad. Let us decide whether the performance is worth it or not ! The audience recordings didn't show any flaw in PB theses nights, did they ?
Post by: jbaent on September 18, 2023, 09:50:24 AM
I can't even see how it would have taken more time to release the full PB.
I'm not an expert but I feel that actually it would have taken less time. Guy had to remix it anyway, since he took the intro. He could have just left his settings as they were and let the song go the end. He would'nt even have hade to cut it and fade it out.
And he said "based of performances", which drives me mad. Let us decide whether the performance is worth it or not ! The audience recordings didn't show any flaw in PB theses nights, did they ?
What I don't get is why, in terms of performance, MK talking again and again about the song being an Irish reagge could be more interesting than the musical outtro with the interchange of solos between MK and Mel... doesn't make sense to me from a performance point of view.
And talking about performance. Is not better to allow fans to enjoy the performance as the attendees did back in 1983 instead of butchering it in a studio under tha criteria of someone who wasn't there?
I totally respect Guy proffesionality and how good he is in what he does, but Alchemy was always more than a live record, and it was far more representative than OTN as a live witness of what the band was on a stage.
Post by: JF on September 18, 2023, 10:12:58 AM
He's the Exec Producer and this isn't a bootleg, this is an official live release, and you have to expect even a certain amount of artistic intervention or when to hit the fader when something falls below the quality threshold musically. The bar is set by the producer but I'm quite happy with that. He's Marks right hand man.
"artistic intervention" ???? :lol :lol :lol :disbelief :disbelief :disbelief
Post by: jf9081 on September 18, 2023, 10:18:50 AM
From yesterday's response I still can't believe we wouldn't have a PB like that night went down in history. perhaps we are the only fans of a band to have fewer and fewer successes in their record releases.
Post by: localhero1986 on September 18, 2023, 10:27:54 AM
Indeed sad it’s only an extended intro to PB instead of full length… Great song and the fade out on MFN compilation always made me eager how it really ends. We do have some recording, but in terms of audio quality it’s so-so.Well this audience recording of PB has outstanding quality. Almost sounds like a soundboard. Anyway given Guy's censorship, this is the best you'll ever get, so enjoy it...
I wonder if, after a DS studio box, MK solo studio box and DS live box, a MK live box will ever see the light of day. I’d love a proper full length GH tour gig with rarities as No can do, Water of love, Long highway, Are we in trouble now AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT EXCLUSE OR CUT OFF DONE WITH BONAPARTE BECAUSE OF THE BAND INTRO. ;D ;D ;D
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9xKe6vCO7s&si=KSmh0Ntm9Y8soUA5
The quality is ok for an audience recording and great to have it, but outstanding? :think
Post by: herlock on September 18, 2023, 10:30:57 AM
Outstanding for an audience recording. This is as good an audience rec from 1983 can get. Of course it is way less outstanding that the remixed soundboard would have sounded without M. Fletcher "artistic input".Indeed sad it’s only an extended intro to PB instead of full length… Great song and the fade out on MFN compilation always made me eager how it really ends. We do have some recording, but in terms of audio quality it’s so-so.Well this audience recording of PB has outstanding quality. Almost sounds like a soundboard. Anyway given Guy's censorship, this is the best you'll ever get, so enjoy it...
I wonder if, after a DS studio box, MK solo studio box and DS live box, a MK live box will ever see the light of day. I’d love a proper full length GH tour gig with rarities as No can do, Water of love, Long highway, Are we in trouble now AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT EXCLUSE OR CUT OFF DONE WITH BONAPARTE BECAUSE OF THE BAND INTRO. ;D ;D ;D
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9xKe6vCO7s&si=KSmh0Ntm9Y8soUA5
The quality is ok for an audience recording and great to have it, but outstanding? :think
Post by: Dutchessy on September 18, 2023, 02:09:43 PM
We can try, but we need to do it carefully and polite in correct English...
Post by: jbaent on September 18, 2023, 02:18:55 PM
Maybe somebody can politely explain to Guy that the whole PB is seen by fans as one of the masterpieces of the band... and ask him to include it on the digital streaming services... mabye... very maybe he is willing to do it...
We can try, but we need to do it carefully and polite in correct English...
All work about it is done. There is no solution right now.
I only hope one day someone thinks about releasing a box with both nights at the Hammersmith, without edits, and do justice at last.
Post by: jf9081 on September 18, 2023, 02:21:22 PM
Maybe somebody can politely explain to Guy that the whole PB is seen by fans as one of the masterpieces of the band... and ask him to include it on the digital streaming services... mabye... very maybe he is willing to do it...
We can try, but we need to do it carefully and polite in correct English...
good idea! why not try?? I don't do it because it's not my second language and with the translator I could make mistakes and misunderstandings. Who wants to try??
Post by: asouza on September 18, 2023, 02:23:04 PM
Well Guy's forum appears to be down now. Perhaps he got fed up with people *moaning*
You guys need to chill on Portobello I
would suggest. It's not actually that interesting in the scheme of things, just a bit of noodling between MK and Mel Collins. I barely listen to it. And if I want to, I'll go to a bootleg like Tokyo in near perfect sound.
I agree, personally, I think there's "a bit too much" in this song, it's like filler for not much. I love the song, but prolonging it like this doesn't really serve it.
I think the same . The duel between Mark and Mel Collins isn’t that much worth.
same for me.
Post by: jf9081 on September 18, 2023, 02:23:18 PM
Post by: Dutchessy on September 18, 2023, 02:48:01 PM
Maybe somebody can politely explain to Guy that the whole PB is seen by fans as one of the masterpieces of the band... and ask him to include it on the digital streaming services... mabye... very maybe he is willing to do it...
We can try, but we need to do it carefully and polite in correct English...
All work about it is done. There is no solution right now.
I only hope one day someone thinks about releasing a box with both nights at the Hammersmith, without edits, and do justice at last.
This is the box for alchemy.. don't think there will be another future alchemy release... Guy said he will continue doing his best for us regarding releasing stuff...
Post by: onceupon84 on September 18, 2023, 03:56:35 PM
So we better cross our fingers and find ourselves with a great new stereo mix and perfect transitions between songs (and TR and SR well ordered) and give away the end of PB forever.
Post by: Robson on September 18, 2023, 04:11:32 PM
It's impossible because first there was Telegraph Road and then Solid Rock. I don't understand this change.
Post by: Dutchessy on September 18, 2023, 04:43:29 PM
(and TR and SR well ordered)
It's impossible because first there was Telegraph Road and then Solid Rock. I don't understand this change.
Maybe for correct fit on LP
Post by: onceupon84 on September 18, 2023, 04:49:52 PM
(and TR and SR well ordered)
It's impossible because first there was Telegraph Road and then Solid Rock. I don't understand this change.
I think the change is possible if they have edited it with Fade In and Fade Out on some songs, creating an artificial live performance. Obviously on that tour SR was never before TR, that's why I don't make sense, except in the vinyl edition due to space problems on one side, but not in the digital editions (and Apple Music shows it).
Post by: Robson on September 18, 2023, 04:58:44 PM
Solid Rock
Telegraph Road
:disbelief
Post by: onceupon84 on September 18, 2023, 05:02:01 PM
But CD version also has this order:
Solid Rock
Telegraph Road
:disbelief
Please, anybody can ask this to Guy? I asked a lot this days ago...
Post by: wakeywakey on September 18, 2023, 05:04:45 PM
Actually, after so many pages of discussion, I also agree that the ending of PB is not that interesting for the general public.
The general public aren't interested in paying £200 for a box set so this release is really for the true fanatics.
Yes the cd box is nearer to £40 but cds no longer make any kind of profit so any profit will come from streaming and the vinyl box.
This kind of set isn't aimed at the general public so any kind of editing is only going to affect the true fans who would only want the FULL song.Unless he was instructed by someone to edit the song Guy messed up here.
Unfortunately we have learned as DS/MK fans that we get short changed and that doesn't look like (ever) changing.
I hope the BIA 40th anniversary box set is handled with more care and attention to detail.
Post by: jbaent on September 18, 2023, 05:22:35 PM
Actually, after so many pages of discussion, I also agree that the ending of PB is not that interesting for the general public.
The general public aren't interested in paying £200 for a box set so this release is really for the true fanatics.
Yes the cd box is nearer to £40 but cds no longer make any kind of profit so any profit will come from streaming and the vinyl box.
This kind of set isn't aimed at the general public so any kind of editing is only going to affect the true fans who would only want the FULL song.Unless he was instructed by someone to edit the song Guy messed up here.
Unfortunately we have learned as DS/MK fans that we get short changed and that doesn't look like (ever) changing.
I hope the BIA 40th anniversary box set is handled with more care and attention to detail.
Now I don't expect a thing.
Good intentions but badly executed.
Post by: JF on September 18, 2023, 05:25:49 PM
several people find that Mel/Mark's duel isn't that worth. ok, matter of taste, each on his own
but the song outro has also another important thing : the band introduction and the link to the TOL intro.
imho, one important thing about musical arrangements during this period was that several songs were linked, and I find it's a shame to not keep that
it's like on OTN you would have a fade out a the end of HF, and then a fade in at the start of R&J. It's a non-sense muscially-wise imho
I hope the link between ID and EL is on this new release.... but maybe Guy chose that it wasn't worth to keep it... ::)
Post by: onceupon84 on September 18, 2023, 05:26:29 PM
-ID is going to be united as it should to EL (checked with 23th audience night).
-PB is going to have a fade out, obviously, although there was the possibility of linking with the TOL synthesizers, but I think that won't happen.
-TOL will start just seconds before the sax entry, when the xylophone synth no longer sounds and only the strings synthesizer (actually 0:28 on Alchemy CD 1984 818 243-2).
https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/live-1978-1992-dire-straits/dpw8ibf93z20a (https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/live-1978-1992-dire-straits/dpw8ibf93z20a)
Post by: jf9081 on September 18, 2023, 05:44:52 PM
about PB :Exactly! the right connection to TOl was finally given. However, maybe it was better before that the song was missing. There's no point in inserting and cutting it now. absurd choice! I will repeat it endlessly! now the omelette is done.
several people find that Mel/Mark's duel isn't that worth. ok, matter of taste, each on his own
but the song outro has also another important thing : the band introduction and the link to the TOL intro.
imho, one important thing about musical arrangements during this period was that several songs were linked, and I find it's a shame to not keep that
it's like on OTN you would have a fade out a the end of HF, and then a fade in at the start of R&J. It's a non-sense muscially-wise imho
I hope the link between ID and EL is on this new release.... but maybe Guy chose that it wasn't worth to keep it... ::)
Post by: cannibals on September 18, 2023, 06:00:16 PM
Post by: onceupon84 on September 18, 2023, 06:00:24 PM
about PB :Exactly! the right connection to TOl was finally given. However, maybe it was better before that the song was missing. There's no point in inserting and cutting it now. absurd choice! I will repeat it endlessly! now the omelette is done.
several people find that Mel/Mark's duel isn't that worth. ok, matter of taste, each on his own
but the song outro has also another important thing : the band introduction and the link to the TOL intro.
imho, one important thing about musical arrangements during this period was that several songs were linked, and I find it's a shame to not keep that
it's like on OTN you would have a fade out a the end of HF, and then a fade in at the start of R&J. It's a non-sense muscially-wise imho
I hope the link between ID and EL is on this new release.... but maybe Guy chose that it wasn't worth to keep it... ::)
Not true. Wait and listen... I'm mixing 22th PB and 23th TOL
Post by: jbaent on September 18, 2023, 06:19:10 PM
about PB :Exactly! the right connection to TOl was finally given. However, maybe it was better before that the song was missing. There's no point in inserting and cutting it now. absurd choice! I will repeat it endlessly! now the omelette is done.
several people find that Mel/Mark's duel isn't that worth. ok, matter of taste, each on his own
but the song outro has also another important thing : the band introduction and the link to the TOL intro.
imho, one important thing about musical arrangements during this period was that several songs were linked, and I find it's a shame to not keep that
it's like on OTN you would have a fade out a the end of HF, and then a fade in at the start of R&J. It's a non-sense muscially-wise imho
I hope the link between ID and EL is on this new release.... but maybe Guy chose that it wasn't worth to keep it... ::)
Its veryr easy to connect, you only need a point that is exactly in both recordings like a drum crash or something to paste both recordings and you won't notice anything. Actually in the Portobello outtro and TOL intro there are some drums sounds that end with a microsilence. That's the perfect point to paste both recordings.
Post by: jbaent on September 18, 2023, 06:21:15 PM
AND THIS ONE? :thumbsup
https://whyp.it/tracks/123520/crossfade-2?token=G6X0c (https://whyp.it/tracks/123520/crossfade-2?token=G6X0c)
Good work but the TOL part needs a fade in to cross-fade correctly with the end of Portobello.
It's a good way to show that, without having the best studio recording in the world such things can be made, imagine what you can do in Mark's studio!
Post by: Robson on September 18, 2023, 06:23:14 PM
Post by: onceupon84 on September 18, 2023, 06:24:17 PM
https://whyp.it/tracks/123523/crossfade-3?token=dZbly (https://whyp.it/tracks/123523/crossfade-3?token=dZbly)
5 minutes working with standard audio editor. Think on studio... don't think on quality, music is in same tone
Post by: jbaent on September 18, 2023, 06:35:22 PM
another one
https://whyp.it/tracks/123523/crossfade-3?token=dZbly (https://whyp.it/tracks/123523/crossfade-3?token=dZbly)
5 minutes working with standard audio editor. Think on studio... don't think on quality, music is in same tone
Yes, there are multiple options but you need to dedicate time, not much actually but a fade out and cut is lots easier!
Post by: Robson on September 21, 2023, 07:52:12 PM
Post by: jbaent on September 21, 2023, 10:19:32 PM
I thought they could have put a different song on Encores than Your Latest Trick. The same song twice again.
They didn't touch Encores nor the BBC.
Actually, they didn't touch Alchemy or OTN, they just added stuff to the existing music.
Post by: Robson on September 21, 2023, 10:26:33 PM
I thought they could have put a different song on Encores than Your Latest Trick. The same song twice again.
They didn't touch Encores nor the BBC.
Actually, they didn't touch Alchemy or OTN, they just added stuff to the existing music.
It's true, but it's a pity because there was a chance for correction. Of course, I'm not complaining, I'm looking forward to November 3, but the details are important.
Post by: jbaent on September 22, 2023, 09:17:42 AM
"An expanded version of the original 2LP of Alchemy to include the existing digital/CD tracklist which includes ‘Love Over Gold’ and the extended versions of ‘Telegraph Road’, ‘Solid Rock’ and ‘Going Home’, with the addition of ‘Portobello Belle’ (released on the Money For Nothing compilation in 1998) as well as the unreleased songs from the performance – ‘Industrial Disease’ and ‘Twisting By The Pool’.
I don't understand which extension can be made to "Telegraph Road", as far as we know that song was in full version in the original Alchemy... Only way to extend it is if you use the version from the MFN compilation which starts with a fade in and the synth sounds, but there is not much missed there. This version ends with a fade out so if they used this version and let it go till the end, yes, it's an extended version of that MFN compilation remix, but the original song was already full, so this is a total NONSENSE.
Same goes to "Solid Rock", how can you extend songs that were already in full version in the original record? Unless they used the sound from the Alchemy bluray, with the sax sounds from the start, but that's not extended but remixed!!!!
"Going Home", well, I understand that if they add the speech before GH, that's an extension.
About "Portobello Belle" it is described as an addition, and with a reference to the MFN compilation (1998???) but it doesn't say that is the edited version from that compilation with the only the intro added.
Unreleased songs from Alchemy makes sense to "Industrial disease" and "Twisting by the pool".
Checking Spotify and Amazon Music (for the new version Spotify doesn't shows the information of not reseleased tracks) lenghts this is the comparation of lenghts for the extended versions:
TRACK ORIGINAL ALCHEMY NEW ALCHEMY
Telegraph Road 13.37 12.56
Solid rock 6.01 5.35
Going home 6.05 5.06
It's quite funny to notice that "extended" versions are SHORTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
About TR, which is 13.37 in the Alchemy original, 12.56 in the new one, it is 12.00 in the MFN compilation so, yes it's extended compared to the MFN compilation, 56 seconds but shorter than the original Alchemy version.
Maybe these new versions are shorter because they have less claps than the original? but that doesn't make the songs extended respect to the original versions either.
Not to mention that is a NONSENSE that they swapped TR and Solid Rock in the track order of the CD, makes sense for the LP but bot for the cd or at least that's how it is listed for the cd.
I guess Guy would had been to busy with other things to make a proper new mix of everything and used already existing material to save time, or maybe the record company had less budget that needed for this project so using already material fit better with the budget, but for me this looks like a weird way to do things.
However, having "Industrial disease" and "Twisting by the pool" and an edited version of "Portobello" is better than nothing.
And also having the extra tracks for OTN and the Rainbow concert with Phil Lynnot is AWESOME, but it's a pity that Alchemy wasn't treated as it deserved.
Post by: herlock on September 22, 2023, 11:14:19 AM
Whenever I want to listen to Alchemy I put on the Blu Ray. The sound is much better, the film is more "fluid", less useless clapping and transitions (what's the point of having the end of ID and of PB when 99.9% of these songs are cut), but with some important parts that are not on the album: the intro speeches of TOL and GH, namely. On the other hand, the album has 2 things the film is lacking, the legendary "Thank yooooooouuu!" to introduce SOS and a longer R&J synth intro. (And LOG, of course, but this live version of TOL is not fantastic compared to the album version).
I have no idea of what they did, but the short lengths can't possibly be good news, indeed...
The track I'm really eager to listen to is the '92 soundboard version of TOL. Unlike most people here I really enjoy the "romantic" pensa sound on TOL, even with no intro I prefer them even to the great' 85 versions! None of the available audience versions has great sound, so this will really be a premiere...
Post by: jbaent on September 22, 2023, 12:11:44 PM
From the OES unreleased songs I'm looking forward to "I think I love you too much" and "when it comes to you" and that's all.
Post by: rmarques821 on September 22, 2023, 12:21:37 PM
Looking at the description on the official site I read something intriguing...Yep, I agree. I have no idea what they're doing with these shorter versions that they claim to be "extended".
"An expanded version of the original 2LP of Alchemy to include the existing digital/CD tracklist which includes ‘Love Over Gold’ and the extended versions of ‘Telegraph Road’, ‘Solid Rock’ and ‘Going Home’, with the addition of ‘Portobello Belle’ (released on the Money For Nothing compilation in 1998) as well as the unreleased songs from the performance – ‘Industrial Disease’ and ‘Twisting By The Pool’.
I don't understand which extension can be made to "Telegraph Road", as far as we know that song was in full version in the original Alchemy... Only way to extend it is if you use the version from the MFN compilation which starts with a fade in and the synth sounds, but there is not much missed there. This version ends with a fade out so if they used this version and let it go till the end, yes, it's an extended version of that MFN compilation remix, but the original song was already full, so this is a total NONSENSE.
Same goes to "Solid Rock", how can you extend songs that were already in full version in the original record? Unless they used the sound from the Alchemy bluray, with the sax sounds from the start, but that's not extended but remixed!!!!
"Going Home", well, I understand that if they add the speech before GH, that's an extension.
About "Portobello Belle" it is described as an addition, and with a reference to the MFN compilation (1998???) but it doesn't say that is the edited version from that compilation with the only the intro added.
Unreleased songs from Alchemy makes sense to "Industrial disease" and "Twisting by the pool".
Checking Spotify and Amazon Music (for the new version Spotify doesn't shows the information of not reseleased tracks) lenghts this is the comparation of lenghts for the extended versions:
TRACK ORIGINAL ALCHEMY NEW ALCHEMY
Telegraph Road 13.37 12.56
Solid rock 6.01 5.35
Going home 6.05 5.06
It's quite funny to notice that "extended" versions are SHORTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
About TR, which is 13.37 in the Alchemy original, 12.56 in the new one, it is 12.00 in the MFN compilation so, yes it's extended compared to the MFN compilation, 56 seconds but shorter than the original Alchemy version.
Maybe these new versions are shorter because they have less claps than the original? but that doesn't make the songs extended respect to the original versions either.
Not to mention that is a NONSENSE that they swapped TR and Solid Rock in the track order of the CD, makes sense for the LP but bot for the cd or at least that's how it is listed for the cd.
I guess Guy would had been to busy with other things to make a proper new mix of everything and used already existing material to save time, or maybe the record company had less budget that needed for this project so using already material fit better with the budget, but for me this looks like a weird way to do things.
However, having "Industrial disease" and "Twisting by the pool" and an edited version of "Portobello" is better than nothing.
And also having the extra tracks for OTN and the Rainbow concert with Phil Lynnot is AWESOME, but it's a pity that Alchemy wasn't treated as it deserved.
Post by: jf9081 on September 22, 2023, 12:47:07 PM
It's not to be repetitive...even after days of discovering the cut on PB I still don't get over the disappointment.
Post by: Robson on September 22, 2023, 01:54:35 PM
Post by: jbaent on September 22, 2023, 02:33:29 PM
Maybe Guy Fletcher will explain something in the diaries. He is not answering questions for now :)
He must be upset with many fans disappointment.
And I kind of understand it. He mixed an unreleased live gemm from 1979, which is the last gig ever of the original line of the band. He made available as many unreleased songs from the OES tour as he was able, but all this is being shadowed because he dared to butcher Portobello belle in the Alchemy record, leaving it incompleted.
He might be shocked because one thing he thinks he did appropriately is wrong for many fans and not only that but also think this spoil what would had been a perfect box ...
Well, it would had been a perfect box, a 10/10.
With the butchering and strange manipulation of probably the favourite DS record for many fans, leave it in a 8/10.
Which is excellent, yes, but is not perfect, and it would had been so easy to do it perfect...
Post by: Robson on September 22, 2023, 03:15:31 PM
Maybe Guy Fletcher will explain something in the diaries. He is not answering questions for now :)
He must be upset with many fans disappointment.
And I kind of understand it. He mixed an unreleased live gemm from 1979, which is the last gig ever of the original line of the band. He made available as many unreleased songs from the OES tour as he was able, but all this is being shadowed because he dared to butcher Portobello belle in the Alchemy record, leaving it incompleted.
He might be shocked because one thing he thinks he did appropriately is wrong for many fans and not only that but also think this spoil what would had been a perfect box ...
Well, it would had been a perfect box, a 10/10.
With the butchering and strange manipulation of probably the favourite DS record for many fans, leave it in a 8/10.
Which is excellent, yes, but is not perfect, and it would had been so easy to do it perfect...
It's true. The fans are merciless:) But maybe there is something we don't know. Maybe lack of time was not the only reason.
Post by: dmg on September 22, 2023, 03:21:58 PM
Maybe Guy Fletcher will explain something in the diaries. He is not answering questions for now :)
He must be upset with many fans disappointment.
And I kind of understand it. He mixed an unreleased live gemm from 1979, which is the last gig ever of the original line of the band. He made available as many unreleased songs from the OES tour as he was able, but all this is being shadowed because he dared to butcher Portobello belle in the Alchemy record, leaving it incompleted.
He might be shocked because one thing he thinks he did appropriately is wrong for many fans and not only that but also think this spoil what would had been a perfect box ...
Well, it would had been a perfect box, a 10/10.
With the butchering and strange manipulation of probably the favourite DS record for many fans, leave it in a 8/10.
Which is excellent, yes, but is not perfect, and it would had been so easy to do it perfect...
So near and yet so far. I agree that it seems Guy must be feeling a little bit miffed right now, still laughing all the way to the bank though so I wouldn't worry too much about his feelings! 😉
Isn't what they are meaning is that the songs are extended only on the new LP and extra tracks included to match those previously released only on CD? I don't have the old LP so can't check it properly for times etc.
"An expanded version of the original 2LP of Alchemy to include the existing digital/CD tracklist..."
Maybe we should just calm down a bit. We're all very excited by this and want it to be perfect as it's what we've been calling for for ages (minus BIA content) but no amount of moaning is going to change anything at this stage.
Post by: JF on September 22, 2023, 04:28:32 PM
Unreleased songs from Alchemy makes sense to "Industrial disease" and "Twisting by the pool".
I must admit I don't care about Twisting by the pool...
If this song hand been left out but PB in his entirety, I wouldn't have moaning at all
Post by: jbaent on September 22, 2023, 05:34:42 PM
Unreleased songs from Alchemy makes sense to "Industrial disease" and "Twisting by the pool".
I must admit I don't care about Twisting by the pool...
If this song hand been left out but PB in his entirety, I wouldn't have moaning at all
Totally agree. If you are not doing the full Alchemy, delete Twisting and put the whole Portobello!
Twisting is already in the Rainbow concert in a more energetic version!
Post by: ds1984 on September 22, 2023, 06:21:32 PM
Post by: jbaent on September 22, 2023, 06:32:12 PM
Could we wait to have listened the actual release ?
I don't think that wait until listening to it is going to change the fact that Portobello is cut.
Actually when we realise the butchering listen to it, it's not going to be better at all, the contrary.
Post by: jf9081 on September 22, 2023, 06:42:12 PM
I've always known and heard the evening of the 23rd... has anyone ever heard the complete version of the 22nd? I would be curious to listen to the performance...since the choice to cut it is based on this, perhaps in the end the error is very evident and does not pass the quality test for a publication....although he could have used the evening of the 23rd
Post by: jbaent on September 22, 2023, 06:44:23 PM
https://youtu.be/fH7pDVoIsAg?si=od6MA4aUKThLb-1f
I wonder why he used Industrial from the 23rd but Twisting and Portobello from the 22nd... reading his comments in his forum he didn't knew that the source for Alchemy was the 23rd.
Post by: jf9081 on September 22, 2023, 06:51:16 PM
The whole Hammersmith 22nd it's in YouTube...
https://youtu.be/fH7pDVoIsAg?si=od6MA4aUKThLb-1f
I wonder why he used Industrial from the 23rd but Twisting and Portobello from the 22nd... reading his comments in his forum he didn't knew that the source for Alchemy was the 23rd.
Thank you!! listen now!
Post by: mariosboss on September 23, 2023, 01:38:21 AM
Best Wishes.
Post by: Banjo99uk on September 23, 2023, 02:10:31 AM
Maybe i'm in the minority but one of my favourite DS songs of all time is "It Never Rains." Astonishing song. Lyrics are fantastic and it's Knopfler at his best painting a picture, the organ is beautiful and the mood change is exhilarating. Great guitars, Hal Lindes more prominant towards the end with what sounds like a guitar/synth sound, great keyboards and synths from Clark and a fantastic guitar solo... with some superb and quite rare wah wah work from Knopfler. Almost Michael Schenker-esque. I know there are some versions of this song that exist live as some of you kindly posted links to it throughout the years. A shame however it wasn't played a lot more live at concerts and a proper recording of it was made.Not at all alone, I think most DS fanatics would put this up there with the best. I personally love it and wish their was a good live version of it.
Best Wishes.
Post by: Robson on September 23, 2023, 01:52:39 PM
It will be a beautiful concert. A very good decision, the last concert of Communique tour. The last time with the original lineup. Historic concert. And Phil Lynott.
Post by: Robson on September 23, 2023, 01:54:38 PM
Post by: jbaent on September 23, 2023, 02:56:07 PM
Post by: Robson on September 23, 2023, 03:04:49 PM
I like Thin Lizzy and it's a bit of a disappointment that they didn't play any Lizzy or solo Lynnot song that MK and Phil recorded together but it would be great to have with perfect sound and well mixed that legendary live collaboration!
Yes. Solo In Soho album was ready.
Post by: ds1984 on September 23, 2023, 03:50:32 PM
The studio album is outstanding as can be PONO. But from what I heard from live audience tape, INR did not develop as much as PONO did.
It was more played as a copy paste of the studio version as Mark did with Are We In Trouble Now.
Post by: JF on September 23, 2023, 06:38:40 PM
Maybe i'm in the minority but one of my favourite DS songs of all time is "It Never Rains." Astonishing song. Lyrics are fantastic and it's Knopfler at his best painting a picture, the organ is beautiful and the mood change is exhilarating. Great guitars, Hal Lindes more prominant towards the end with what sounds like a guitar/synth sound, great keyboards and synths from Clark and a fantastic guitar solo... with some superb and quite rare wah wah work from Knopfler. Almost Michael Schenker-esque. I know there are some versions of this song that exist live as some of you kindly posted links to it throughout the years. A shame however it wasn't played a lot more live at concerts and a proper recording of it was made.
Best Wishes.
one of my fav too
Post by: herlock on September 24, 2023, 11:55:30 AM
Looks like Portobello is again cut :disbeliefJbaent, could you post the duration of other songs?
-TOL from Alchemy
-TOL from OTN
-MFN and WOL from OTN
Just to see how much editing was done on these songs? The last 2 were edited on the original OTN... And TOL from OTN might be edited as it has normally and intro and some band intro
Many thanks in advance
Post by: jbaent on September 24, 2023, 12:13:56 PM
Post by: herlock on September 24, 2023, 12:45:07 PM
I had tried to find the durations by myself before bothering you, but I only have a YouTube music account, which only shows the 3 released tracks.
There are good news and bad news:
-Good news is, TOL from OTN seems to be complete, with intro and band introductions. The duration is similar to Rotterdam 30/05/1992, even 18 seconds longer, so a bit of clapping before and after.
-Bad news is, 1) TOL from Alchemy seems butchered, with this length either Mel's sax intro or Mark's speech about the Spanish city is cut. No way to have both... and 2) MFN and WOL are more or less the same length than the original, so the opportunity to restore MFN intro and end drum solo is lost too!
Post by: jbaent on September 24, 2023, 01:34:27 PM
Many thanks jbaent! Much appreciated.
I had tried to find the durations by myself before bothering you, but I only have a YouTube music account, which only shows the 3 released tracks.
There are good news and bad news:
-Good news is, TOL from OTN seems to be complete, with intro and band introductions. The duration is similar to Rotterdam 30/05/1992, even 18 seconds longer, so a bit of clapping before and after.
-Bad news is, 1) TOL from Alchemy seems butchered, with this length either Mel's sax intro or Mark's speech about the Spanish city is cut. No way to have both... and 2) MFN and WOL are more or less the same length than the original, so the opportunity to restore MFN intro and end drum solo is lost too!
You are not bothering, in the contrary. It's just that I always try to help others to be independents when searching and finding information. But I'm always happy to help.
As far as Guy said they used the originals from the previous records and remastered them together with the new mixed songs. Seems by the lengths it's what happened with OTN but I'm not sure about Alchemy, as lengths don't coincide with original record duration of songs ..
Post by: herlock on September 24, 2023, 01:54:20 PM
I would love to believe that they remastered the original album and just suppressed the end of PB at the beginning of TOL and the end of ID at the beginning at EL, and extra clapping at beginning / ending of songs which were kind of useless. But when I see the duration of GH, it doesn't match - as if they suppressed a lot of the intro. We'll see..
Post by: jbaent on September 24, 2023, 05:12:06 PM
Thanks jbaent!
I would love to believe that they remastered the original album and just suppressed the end of PB at the beginning of TOL and the end of ID at the beginning at EL, and extra clapping at beginning / ending of songs which were kind of useless. But when I see the duration of GH, it doesn't match - as if they suppressed a lot of the intro. We'll see..
At first I thought they took the audio of the dvd release, remixed by Chuck Ainlay, hence the shorter duration of the songs, but they also did a strange thing changing the order of Solid rock and TR because they were unable to put it on a lp side so they clearly edited tracks to fill on lp sides so I'm not sure anymore which version they used... and they did the master thinking on the lp version and the cd and digital copied that master, which is unfair to me.
I would had made a digital master with everything without cuts, as digital allows me, then a second version for cd that still would had allowed me to put all songs without cuts, just a fade out on last song on cd1 and fade in on first song on cd2 that wouldn't cut any song as all fits naturally.. and then made an edit for the lp, with the edits you need to fit.
That's would had been a work made with care and love.
What was done was a work to save time and only do one edit, the one with cuts and edits, and condemn the other formats to inherit that cuts and edits when the other formats would had support all content. But when you need to save time or have a short budget, that's what you do.
Post by: herlock on September 24, 2023, 05:32:53 PM
100% agree.Thanks jbaent!
I would love to believe that they remastered the original album and just suppressed the end of PB at the beginning of TOL and the end of ID at the beginning at EL, and extra clapping at beginning / ending of songs which were kind of useless. But when I see the duration of GH, it doesn't match - as if they suppressed a lot of the intro. We'll see..
At first I thought they took the audio of the dvd release, remixed by Chuck Ainlay, hence the shorter duration of the songs, but they also did a strange thing changing the order of Solid rock and TR because they were unable to put it on a lp side so they clearly edited tracks to fill on lp sides so I'm not sure anymore which version they used... and they did the master thinking on the lp version and the cd and digital copied that master, which is unfair to me.
I would had made a digital master with everything without cuts, as digital allows me, then a second version for cd that still would had allowed me to put all songs without cuts, just a fade out on last song on cd1 and fade in on first song on cd2 that wouldn't cut any song as all fits naturally.. and then made an edit for the lp, with the edits you need to fit.
That's would had been a work made with care and love.
What was done was a work to save time and only do one edit, the one with cuts and edits, and condemn the other formats to inherit that cuts and edits when the other formats would had support all content. But when you need to save time or have a short budget, that's what you do.
And even with the LP constraints, this could have been much better. Lots of wasted space on the LPs, the full version of PB would have fit with no problem on the side!
Post by: Rivers Of Rain on September 24, 2023, 08:54:28 PM
Maybe i'm in the minority but one of my favourite DS songs of all time is "It Never Rains." Astonishing song. Lyrics are fantastic and it's Knopfler at his best painting a picture, the organ is beautiful and the mood change is exhilarating. Great guitars, Hal Lindes more prominant towards the end with what sounds like a guitar/synth sound, great keyboards and synths from Clark and a fantastic guitar solo... with some superb and quite rare wah wah work from Knopfler. Almost Michael Schenker-esque. I know there are some versions of this song that exist live as some of you kindly posted links to it throughout the years. A shame however it wasn't played a lot more live at concerts and a proper recording of it was made.
Best Wishes.
one of my fav too
I'm also a big fan of It Never Rains, it has been one of my favourites since I first started listening to DS. I listened to the full Love Over Gold album last night and thought that the end of the guitar solo and the combination of organ and piano parts that follow particularly stood out. From the lyrical portion of the song the 'you were just a rollercoaster memory' verse is my favourite as it marks the point where the music and lyrics become noticeably more intense. I believe it was included in the setlist in the initial Love Over Gold tour shows in 1982 but didn't return when the band resumed touring in 1983.
Post by: dustyvalentino on September 24, 2023, 11:52:52 PM
If you haven’t seen the video you will have no clue what is happening, you will just think his guitar is broken or something.
Post by: ChrisGlastonbury on September 25, 2023, 01:10:18 AM
Maybe i'm in the minority but one of my favourite DS songs of all time is "It Never Rains." Astonishing song. Lyrics are fantastic and it's Knopfler at his best painting a picture, the organ is beautiful and the mood change is exhilarating. Great guitars, Hal Lindes more prominant towards the end with what sounds like a guitar/synth sound, great keyboards and synths from Clark and a fantastic guitar solo... with some superb and quite rare wah wah work from Knopfler. Almost Michael Schenker-esque. I know there are some versions of this song that exist live as some of you kindly posted links to it throughout the years. A shame however it wasn't played a lot more live at concerts and a proper recording of it was made.
Best Wishes.
One of my favourites also; feels under appreciated in general.
Post by: jbaent on September 25, 2023, 07:47:50 AM
Post by: cannibals on September 25, 2023, 08:04:28 AM
Only 55 Euro for the cd box. LP box is 215 Euro.
Post by: herlock on September 25, 2023, 08:14:38 AM
The MFN intro is pointless on audio only.Not completely.
If you haven’t seen the video you will have no clue what is happening, you will just think his guitar is broken or something.
Even without the "on strike" joke, their is still a (small) introduction musical sentence that could have been kept.
Of course nothing like the full intro on the album or the BIA tour...
Post by: Robson on September 25, 2023, 01:27:04 PM
What was done was a work to save time and only do one edit, the one with cuts and edits, and condemn the other formats to inherit that cuts and edits when the other formats would had support all content. But when you need to save time or have a short budget, that's what you do"
And it's a little weird. Because this box is aimed mainly at fans. And fans are always more critical and meticulous. Guy Fletcher knows this on his forum.
Post by: kaleo74 on September 25, 2023, 03:33:03 PM
Post by: herlock on September 25, 2023, 03:37:27 PM
I think we've lost the Doc, it's radio silence, he's been taking criticism for a few pages now, he hasn't even replied on his forum since the announcement, we've been rough on him I think. Let's not forget that he's our link with Mark and the rest of the DS industry, I'm happy to have and listen to what's coming out soon, even if there are seconds missing here and there :)For Portobello Belle, the missing time is over 8 minutes...
Post by: Robson on September 25, 2023, 03:41:35 PM
Post by: herlock on September 25, 2023, 03:42:33 PM
Not six?It's over 15 minutes....
Post by: Robson on September 25, 2023, 03:44:43 PM
Post by: herlock on September 25, 2023, 03:48:15 PM
On aLCHEMY it has 13.17 the new version is over 7 minutes long if I remember correctly.On Alchemy, PB has exactly 0.00....
Post by: Robson on September 25, 2023, 03:55:34 PM
Post by: jbaent on September 25, 2023, 04:08:06 PM
I think we've lost the Doc, it's radio silence, he's been taking criticism for a few pages now, he hasn't even replied on his forum since the announcement, we've been rough on him I think. Let's not forget that he's our link with Mark and the rest of the DS industry, I'm happy to have and listen to what's coming out soon, even if there are seconds missing here and there :)
He could had closed the forum but he didn't.
I hope he's just busy or taking a rest of it.
Post by: K-alberto on September 25, 2023, 05:39:54 PM
I think we've lost the Doc, it's radio silence, he's been taking criticism for a few pages now, he hasn't even replied on his forum since the announcement, we've been rough on him I think. Let's not forget that he's our link with Mark and the rest of the DS industry, I'm happy to have and listen to what's coming out soon, even if there are seconds missing here and there :)
I actually think that all this criticism (more on this forum than in his Q&A) is completely pointless. Everyone could think one thing that would have liked more (no cuts, or a show from '85, or anything). So we would have at least 100 different box sets, tu satisfy each and everyone (maybe).
But tha main thing, is that for the first time we will be blessed with so many hidden gems from the past that many of us were just dreaming of.
To fill pages and pages of moaning is something I can't understand. And maybe I'm not the only one.
Post by: superval99 on September 25, 2023, 05:47:53 PM
I think we've lost the Doc, it's radio silence, he's been taking criticism for a few pages now, he hasn't even replied on his forum since the announcement, we've been rough on him I think. Let's not forget that he's our link with Mark and the rest of the DS industry, I'm happy to have and listen to what's coming out soon, even if there are seconds missing here and there :)
I actually think that all this criticism (more on this forum than in his Q&A) is completely pointless. Everyone could think one thing that would have liked more (no cuts, or a show from '85, or anything). So we would have at least 100 different box sets, tu satisfy each and everyone (maybe).
But tha main thing, is that for the first time we will be blessed with so many hidden gems from the past that many of us were just dreaming of.
To fill pages and pages of moaning is something I can't understand. And maybe I'm not the only one.
No, you're not the only one!
Post by: 2manyguitars on September 25, 2023, 05:48:29 PM
I think we've lost the Doc, it's radio silence, he's been taking criticism for a few pages now, he hasn't even replied on his forum since the announcement, we've been rough on him I think. Let's not forget that he's our link with Mark and the rest of the DS industry, I'm happy to have and listen to what's coming out soon, even if there are seconds missing here and there :)
I actually think that all this criticism (more on this forum than in his Q&A) is completely pointless. Everyone could think one thing that would have liked more (no cuts, or a show from '85, or anything). So we would have at least 100 different box sets, tu satisfy each and everyone (maybe).
But tha main thing, is that for the first time we will be blessed with so many hidden gems from the past that many of us were just dreaming of.
To fill pages and pages of moaning is something I can't understand. And maybe I'm not the only one.
You're not the only one. It comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between artist and fan. None of us have the right to say what should and should not be on any release. We as fans have never been deprived of anything because such state implys ownership of something. We should enjoy the music we have and look forward to whats to come. If you don't like it don't buy it....
Post by: herlock on September 25, 2023, 05:52:53 PM
First, as you noticed, we are not "moaning" on Guy's forum, which would be disrespectful, but here, which is a space of freedom of speech.I think we've lost the Doc, it's radio silence, he's been taking criticism for a few pages now, he hasn't even replied on his forum since the announcement, we've been rough on him I think. Let's not forget that he's our link with Mark and the rest of the DS industry, I'm happy to have and listen to what's coming out soon, even if there are seconds missing here and there :)
I actually think that all this criticism (more on this forum than in his Q&A) is completely pointless. Everyone could think one thing that would have liked more (no cuts, or a show from '85, or anything). So we would have at least 100 different box sets, tu satisfy each and everyone (maybe).
But tha main thing, is that for the first time we will be blessed with so many hidden gems from the past that many of us were just dreaming of.
To fill pages and pages of moaning is something I can't understand. And maybe I'm not the only one.
Second, we are not "moaning" about what is not there at all. Everybody understands that nothing was recorded with quality for the BIA tour, or that it may be saved for a later (40th anniversary ?) release. And we all understand that PONO was not recorded, so no point moaning about it.
We are "moaning" about things there were readily available, that woud have cost nothing to release in full, but for which it was arbitrarly decided that it would be cut. Biggest (but not only) example being Portobello Belle.
This is a wasted opporunity, and saying it here is not an insult, we have every right to say it
It does not prevent me from saying I'm grateful for the good things. Releasing the Rainbow concert is awesome. Releasing SOS, TR and TOL and a few others from the OES tour (especially TOL, for which no soundboard has ever been available) is awesome.
But butchering Alchemy, knowing the importance of this historical concert, whereas it would have been so easy to do it right, is *not* awesome.. this deserves moaning, yes. Sorry.
Post by: Robson on September 25, 2023, 06:15:01 PM
Post by: ds1984 on September 25, 2023, 06:53:37 PM
You're not the only one. It comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between artist and fan. None of us have the right to say what should and should not be on any release. We as fans have never been deprived of anything because such state implys ownership of something. We should enjoy the music we have and look forward to whats to come. If you don't like it don't buy it....
I could agree with you if I had proof that it is both based on artistic concerns and by Mark himself.
Otherwise this is people working on Mark's baby and we are all legitimate to discuss their decision.
Just that 15 pages of "it's a shame PB will be cut" is a little boring.
Post by: 2manyguitars on September 25, 2023, 08:52:48 PM
You're not the only one. It comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between artist and fan. None of us have the right to say what should and should not be on any release. We as fans have never been deprived of anything because such state implys ownership of something. We should enjoy the music we have and look forward to whats to come. If you don't like it don't buy it....
I could agree with you if I had proof that it is both based on artistic concerns and by Mark himself.
Otherwise this is people working on Mark's baby and we are all legitimate to discuss their decision.
Just that 15 pages of "it's a shame PB will be cut" is a little boring.
We can discuss all we like. Thats fine. People just shouldn't be slighted because its not what they wanted. You know that famous saying about opinions.
This music does not belong to us, its something someone has chosen to share for a price.
If I were Guy right now I'd probably be wondering why I bothered.....
Post by: quizzaciously on September 25, 2023, 09:25:59 PM
I think we've lost the Doc, it's radio silence, he's been taking criticism for a few pages now, he hasn't even replied on his forum since the announcement, we've been rough on him I think. Let's not forget that he's our link with Mark and the rest of the DS industry, I'm happy to have and listen to what's coming out soon, even if there are seconds missing here and there :)
There's a reason Mark has been working with Guy for so long, and I think it's not so easy to "lose" him, surely he'll be over it. I've seen all sorts of crazy stuff on his forum and he handled it perfectly well and with dignity.
Post by: dmg on September 25, 2023, 10:53:10 PM
I think we've lost the Doc, it's radio silence, he's been taking criticism for a few pages now, he hasn't even replied on his forum since the announcement, we've been rough on him I think. Let's not forget that he's our link with Mark and the rest of the DS industry, I'm happy to have and listen to what's coming out soon, even if there are seconds missing here and there :)
Don't worry, if he really is a Doc he'll be on strike. :disbelief
Post by: jf9081 on September 25, 2023, 11:59:45 PM
I think we've lost the Doc, it's radio silence, he's been taking criticism for a few pages now, he hasn't even replied on his forum since the announcement, we've been rough on him I think. Let's not forget that he's our link with Mark and the rest of the DS industry, I'm happy to have and listen to what's coming out soon, even if there are seconds missing here and there :)
Don't worry, if he really is a Doc he'll be on strike. :disbelief
Guy responded in his forum
Post by: Knut on September 26, 2023, 02:32:48 AM
We'll see what is released and what's cut, but IMO they should have a proper explanation for when they remove parts of live performances. That said, I'm not the biggest fan of all the extended versions anyway. They're fun as oneoffs done "in the moment", but I'd rather have another song or two than some instrumental parts that lead pretty much nowhere.
Post by: Robson on September 26, 2023, 03:29:45 AM
Sorry about the outro. I just thought it went on a bit, didn’t develop and I know for a fact Mark would not have wanted that.
Post by: jbaent on September 26, 2023, 06:20:29 AM
We really (specially me) don't have right to show that frustration on Guy as he really had gave us more than he had to. This is his work, not an obligation to fulfill fans dreams, and as we say in Spain, you can't leave the trees to hide the forest.
This box is far more than we ever dreamed about and I feel ashamed to let myself go on the frustration on not having just one song complete, not matter how much I love it, to forget how thankful I should be for everything else we are getting.
Post by: herlock on September 26, 2023, 06:22:03 AM
GF:First, you all can see that GF survived this thread, if he ever read it. He is not *that* sensitive :)
Sorry about the outro. I just thought it went on a bit, didn’t develop and I know for a fact Mark would not have wanted that.
Then, what he is saying about the outro does not make sense. The fact that Mark wouldn't want that now does not erase the fact that he obviously wanted the song to be played that way, back in 1983. He also wouldn't want to play Sultans with keyboards anymore, for sure - should the keyboards be removed from the mix on Alchemy, then? Guy is not here to rewrite History, Stalin-style, just to document it. If some people don't like it, they can just skip it!
Besides, I seriously doubt that Mark wouldn't want that, even in modern days. Postcards from Paraguay in 2013/2015 went on forever, and was used as a platform for band introductions. It was way less interesting than the sax/guitar duel on PB, and yet it made it on the live recordings!
If Guy had just a little glimpse of fan psychology, he would never had taken such a radical decision. Oh well... Ok, let's not write another 15 pages about it...
Post by: herlock on September 26, 2023, 06:23:11 AM
As much as I loved Portobello belle in its long version live, I have to admit that I've been blinded by the frustration of not having it on full on this new box.You can be both frustrated *and* thankful, as I am. Not incompatible :)
We really (specially me) don't have right to show that frustration on Guy as he really had gave us more than he had to. This is his work, not an obligation to fulfill fans dreams, and as we say in Spain, you can't leave the trees to hide the forest.
This box is far more than we ever dreamed about and I feel ashamed to let myself go on the frustration on not having just one song complete, not matter how much I love it, to forget how thankful I should be for everything else we are getting.
Post by: wakeywakey on September 26, 2023, 06:29:06 AM
GF:
Sorry about the outro. I just thought it went on a bit, didn’t develop and I know for a fact Mark would not have wanted that.
Nice of him to apologise but if MK didn't want it why the hell was it played in the first place?
It seems the buck is being passed to someone who definitely won't play so Guy must be hoping this ends the discussion.
I don't think I'll ever agree with his "reasoning" so to all who wanted more the message is:TOUGH LUCK.
Post by: qjamesfloyd on September 26, 2023, 12:10:58 PM
Post by: superval99 on September 26, 2023, 12:41:40 PM
I for one am very happy to have anything new released under the name Dire Straits, if this is Guy's project (maybe with Mark overseeing?) then it's up to him to decide what to include, not include, edit etc, it doesn't bother me in the slightest, I have been a DS/MK fan since the late 80's so, I am always grateful for new releases, I will buy this box set, like most of us here, and I will enjoy it for what it is, the odd seconds or minutes missing here and there is ok with me. Guy has done a great job with this release, he has made himself available to the fans on his forum, which is great, he really doesn't have to.
I feel the same as you. I am looking forward to buying the box set too and the missing few minutes won't bother me at all.
Post by: quizzaciously on September 26, 2023, 12:56:27 PM
GF:
Sorry about the outro. I just thought it went on a bit, didn’t develop and I know for a fact Mark would not have wanted that.
Nice of him to apologise but if MK didn't want it why the hell was it played in the first place?
It seems the buck is being passed to someone who definitely won't play so Guy must be hoping this ends the discussion.
I don't think I'll ever agree with his "reasoning" so to all who wanted more the message is:TOUGH LUCK.
The strangest thing is that I always thought Mark recently has become "the king of outros". I remember being on a live show in 2019 and thinking "Man, half of the show must be just outros", some of them lasting for many minutes. And Guy stating "outro is not something Mark would want" is indeed strange.
The whole idea of this "Portobello Belle" version is simply having fun in the reggae environment akin to the "So Far Away" calypso version. It's the celebration of music, having fun on stage, enjoying funny moments and rhythms, dancing and smiling.
To cut it short again and again is simply ridiculous. If I want to listen to the short Portobello Belle, then I'll listen to the studio recording. If I want to have fun, I'll listen to the uncut performance on YouTube, don't mind it's 13 minutes.
Post by: quizzaciously on September 26, 2023, 01:06:41 PM
Now, the cut of the outro is more mysterious: I think Mark was just not a fan of his guitar work there, as simple as that. And the arrangement in general.
I get the impression that they should've started with a jam, and then gone to the song, the mistake they later redeemed with "So Far Away". This way, you go from jam to the song, and it's a way nicer transition than just going for a 10-minute outro to nowhere.
Bottom line: perfectionism is a disease. Just release the full song and move on, this stuff happened 40 years ago, who cares!
Post by: ds1984 on September 26, 2023, 01:21:20 PM
This is not a one way relationship.
Otherwise we would go to a concert, remain silent and just get out of the venue once the show is over.
Guy should not be put in an ivory tower.
The thing lies in "How".
How to express a dissatisfaction without turning into being disrespectfull?
If a lot of people ask for release of full unedited version of the Alchemy concert that should tell Guy something.
Unless something utterly bad happend during the performance. But the audience tapes are out and we know that this is not the case.
This is more of personnal taste of "is this good enough to put it out?'.
Post by: herlock on September 26, 2023, 01:27:14 PM
So don't think in place of people, just release it, and let people decide whether they want to listen to it or just skip it. There is plenty of space left, even on the 6-disc vinyl ediition.
Is it that difficult ?
Post by: jf9081 on September 26, 2023, 01:55:28 PM
Patience, let's wait for the box and enjoy the other things, which promises a lot!!
Post by: Marnix on September 26, 2023, 02:13:59 PM
Exact! Not to write another 15 pages... but I don't understand this last explanation either! it's a mistery! In live shows there are thousands of these connections between songs and they are often beautiful transition moments, especially in Alchemy with PB/TOL. It had to be FINALLY released in its entirety, without the personal pleasure.
Patience, let's wait for the box and enjoy the other things, which promises a lot!!
Totally agree!! I am looking forward to hear the 1979 show in pristine quality and also the 7(!!) extra songs from the OES tour.
Post by: Stiglar on September 26, 2023, 03:05:35 PM
I do agree with guy in that , the outro of PB does go for too long and it does meander, I can understand why he/mark would feel it isn't necessary , I don't think i'll miss it too much to be honest, Especially since I felt personally that the new PB on the MFN compilation was a bit messy/raw compared to the rest of alchemy. I do wonder if when listened to/mixed in good quality if things jumped out more and it fell a bit too far into the messy/jam category of recording
Having said that ... should it be included anyway? I think so! Those tours are known for their drawn out versions and jams, just release it in it's entirety even if it's just for a digital release, I guess there are budgets and times to think about. But still. Maybe one day!
Post by: Marnix on September 26, 2023, 03:25:34 PM
My guess is if Guy took only the may shows from Nimes and Rotterdam 1992:
Fade to Black: Nimes, may 21 (only played that date)
When it comes to you: Nimes, may 19/20/21
Tunnel Of Love: Rotterdam, may 30 (only played that date)
I Think I Love You Too Much: Rotterdam, may 30 (only played that date)
Sultans of Swing and Telegraph Road are played on all the recorded shows so any date is possible
Post by: jf9081 on September 26, 2023, 04:00:09 PM
I'm waiting to hear the concert in it's entirety before making too many judgements on what it should/shouldn't be ,
I do agree with guy in that , the outro of PB does go for too long and it does meander, I can understand why he/mark would feel it isn't necessary , I don't think i'll miss it too much to be honest, Especially since I felt personally that the new PB on the MFN compilation was a bit messy/raw compared to the rest of alchemy. I do wonder if when listened to/mixed in good quality if things jumped out more and it fell a bit too far into the messy/jam category of recording
Having said that ... should it be included anyway? I think so! Those tours are known for their drawn out versions and jams, just release it in it's entirety even if it's just for a digital release, I guess there are budgets and times to think about. But still. Maybe one day!
I hope for a digital release of the song in its entirety...or a new complete bluray!!
Post by: jbaent on September 26, 2023, 04:02:48 PM
The online streamingsplatforms don't mention were the On The Night bonustracks are recorded ?
My guess is if Guy took only the may shows from Nimes and Rotterdam 1992:
Fade to Black: Nimes, may 21 (only played that date)
When it comes to you: Nimes, may 19/20/21
Tunnel Of Love: Rotterdam, may 30 (only played that date)
I Think I Love You Too Much: Rotterdam, may 30 (only played that date)
Sultans of Swing and Telegraph Road are played on all the recorded shows so any date is possible
I think the streaming services have the location of the songs, at least apple music. I can't see it in Amazon music as its not available yet and only shows me a part of the title and the length but can't see the location except for these ones:
Post by: Marnix on September 26, 2023, 04:37:53 PM
Those are from the Encores album I see that also but the songs from OTN only mentioned as live/Remastered 2023 or live/mixed 2023The online streamingsplatforms don't mention were the On The Night bonustracks are recorded ?
My guess is if Guy took only the may shows from Nimes and Rotterdam 1992:
Fade to Black: Nimes, may 21 (only played that date)
When it comes to you: Nimes, may 19/20/21
Tunnel Of Love: Rotterdam, may 30 (only played that date)
I Think I Love You Too Much: Rotterdam, may 30 (only played that date)
Sultans of Swing and Telegraph Road are played on all the recorded shows so any date is possible
I think the streaming services have the location of the songs, at least apple music. I can't see it in Amazon music as its not available yet and only shows me a part of the title and the length but can't see the location except for these ones:
Post by: jbaent on September 26, 2023, 05:58:00 PM
If anyone has apple music and can see anything else and post it here, you'll be welcome.
Post by: Marnix on September 26, 2023, 06:27:24 PM
According to the On Every Bootleg website the original EP was half recorded in Nimes (Your Latest Trick and The Bug) and the other half in Rotterdam (Solid Rock and Wild Theme). And now are all songs listed as Live in Nimes. ??? ::)
Post by: ds1984 on September 26, 2023, 07:26:31 PM
What I am really looking after in that box are the unreleased 1992 stuff.
Post by: vape68 on September 26, 2023, 08:04:52 PM
Post by: Robson on September 26, 2023, 08:19:37 PM
Guy just wrote the expanded On The Night songs were chosen by him and MK didn't even listen to them ::) ::) ::)
This isn't a surprise to me :)
Post by: rmarques821 on September 26, 2023, 10:32:30 PM
Guy just wrote the expanded On The Night songs were chosen by him and MK didn't even listen to them ::) ::) ::)I would be surprised if he had bothered to listen to them. Plus, he really seems to dislike the OES album. One time he didn't even remember My Parties was on OES ;D
Post by: kaleo74 on September 26, 2023, 11:35:00 PM
I think the reasons to cut Portobello are as follows. Intro: awful crowd clapping not in sync with the band (on 1 and 3 instead of 2 and 4). Then, if you cut to the sax intro omitting clapping, it's strange to start abruptly on the sax intro, so they cut straight into the verse instead.The emoji though
Now, the cut of the outro is more mysterious: I think Mark was just not a fan of his guitar work there, as simple as that. And the arrangement in general.
I get the impression that they should've started with a jam, and then gone to the song, the mistake they later redeemed with "So Far Away". This way, you go from jam to the song, and it's a way nicer transition than just going for a 10-minute outro to nowhere.
Bottom line: perfectionism is a disease. Just release the full song and move on, this stuff happened 40 years ago, who cares!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230926/c4a042869c88c5d22d06c053a4900d5a.jpg)
Post by: Robson on September 27, 2023, 01:53:01 AM
Guy just wrote the expanded On The Night songs were chosen by him and MK didn't even listen to them ::) ::) ::)I would be surprised if he had bothered to listen to them. Plus, he really seems to dislike the OES album. One time he didn't even remember My Parties was on OES ;D
On Every Street is MK's favorite album.
Post by: border_reiver on September 27, 2023, 06:30:39 AM
I wonder if this new boxset was an idea of MK and JI or the record compagny? And does MK really work on this or does he give Guy a sort of cart blanche??Mark probably doesn't give a hoot about this. He probably said "yeah, go ahead" and that's it
LOL. He called it. ;D
Post by: jf9081 on September 27, 2023, 12:44:51 PM
Post by: ds1984 on September 27, 2023, 01:22:50 PM
Post by: knopfler1 on September 27, 2023, 01:23:05 PM
Post by: jbaent on September 27, 2023, 02:03:46 PM
Guy's last reply says that Alchemy has all been remixed...didn't he previously just say the new entries?? I got confused...maybe I didn't understand correctly? :think
Online credits says that previously available tracks are remastered, "industrial" and "twisting" are remixed and remastered and "Portobello" is intro extended, remixed and remastered.
Boom, like that!
Lol
Post by: ds1984 on September 27, 2023, 06:56:53 PM
Post by: mschaap on September 27, 2023, 11:09:18 PM
This would be something you’d advertise I suppose, so that’s very strange. But the communication is a mess anyway, so all is possible.
Take for instance the claim for the same tracks to be remixed and remastered, that just seems impossible to me. If you have a new mix, you are going to master that for the very first time and therefore it can’t also be a remaster.
Post by: jbaent on September 28, 2023, 08:27:25 AM
Online credits are not always reliable
In the streaming services the credits are provided from the record companies so they are as reliable as the info is provided by the official source of the material being sell.
Post by: jbaent on September 28, 2023, 08:35:26 AM
If Alchemy indeed is remixed entirely, that would be great!
This would be something you’d advertise I suppose, so that’s very strange. But the communication is a mess anyway, so all is possible.
Take for instance the claim for the same tracks to be remixed and remastered, that just seems impossible to me. If you have a new mix, you are going to master that for the very first time and therefore it can’t also be a remaster.
I guess Guy missunderstood the question as in previous ones he laready said he only remixed the new (unreleased) stuff and the previous one was just remastered.
But the truth is the lenght of Alchemy songs doesn't match with the ones released in the original Alchemy record.
And also, the truth is Guy said that he believed that Alchemy was a mix between 22nd and 23rd of July, which is false (it comes from the 23rd in more than a 98%) so if he remixed all Alchemy in it's entirety he would had needed to work with the EXACT tapes of the EXACT dates.
Post by: ds1984 on September 28, 2023, 07:49:56 PM
Online credits are not always reliable
In the streaming services the credits are provided from the record companies so they are as reliable as the info is provided by the official source of the material being sell.
:lol
Post by: dustyvalentino on September 29, 2023, 10:59:53 AM
Online credits are not always reliable
In the streaming services the credits are provided from the record companies so they are as reliable as the info is provided by the official source of the material being sell.
:lol
Yeah, I don't trust the record companies to be reliable!
Post by: quizzaciously on September 29, 2023, 07:39:45 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIZ_tHZJjEs
Post by: herlock on September 29, 2023, 07:41:26 PM
How about it?I'm worried:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIZ_tHZJjEs
-They interrupted the release of Wembley 85, to release this, which we already have on blu Ray...
-The magnificent synth intro is cut!!
Post by: rmarques821 on September 29, 2023, 07:53:59 PM
How about it?They cut the fantastic, atmospheric synth intro... ??? ???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIZ_tHZJjEs
Post by: onceupon84 on September 29, 2023, 08:32:24 PM
How about it?I'm worried:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIZ_tHZJjEs
-They interrupted the release of Wembley 85, to release this, which we already have on blu Ray...
-The magnificent synth intro is cut!!
This is Alchemy from BD, but... in 4K! (upscaled, or taken from master?)
2010 stereo audio mix.
i think Wembley '85 uploads will continue after boxset promotion.
Post by: jbaent on September 29, 2023, 08:42:21 PM
Live at the Rainbow 1979
This sounds a bit like the fake pre CBS Fender Strat Mark played for a few months before it was revealed to be a fake - thinner than his real one. It looks like they are bringing out an 8 CD live compilation - one song divided by that many tracks and then divided by four isn’t going to pay too many bills for me I guess - but all things considered it at least sounds like I was doing my job as far as possible in a four piece line up. I would imagine with two keyboard players added in 1981 things got a lot meatier
Post by: ds1984 on September 29, 2023, 09:32:49 PM
David seems to focus only on the writting credits he will get paid for What’s The Matter Baby that is on 2 records
What about the royalties he will get as a performer on 28 tracks out of the 64 ?
Post by: marki on September 29, 2023, 09:38:12 PM
How come the poster (at 6:08) shows 12.7.83?
Post by: jbaent on September 29, 2023, 09:40:05 PM
Did I understood correctly?
David seems to focus only on the writting credits he will get paid for What’s The Matter Baby that is on 2 records
What about the royalties he will get as a performer on 28 tracks out of the 64 ?
It's just irony, he really doesn't care much about it.
Post by: ds1984 on September 29, 2023, 10:27:00 PM
It is described as 22/23 of July performance.
How come the poster (at 6:08) shows 12.7.83?
That is the poster for the gig in Zagreb
Post by: marki on September 30, 2023, 10:44:37 AM
Post by: ds1984 on September 30, 2023, 11:13:37 AM
When quickly checking yesterday I did not see those for Eurythmics.
Post by: dustyvalentino on September 30, 2023, 01:48:48 PM
Did I understood correctly?
David seems to focus only on the writting credits he will get paid for What’s The Matter Baby that is on 2 records
What about the royalties he will get as a performer on 28 tracks out of the 64 ?
It goes back to the days of sheet music but songwriting publishing has always been where the significant money is in music.
Post by: Brunno Nunes on September 30, 2023, 07:02:04 PM
David Knopfler published some comments on his Patreon regarding the SOS uploaded from Rainbow 79:
Live at the Rainbow 1979
This sounds a bit like the fake pre CBS Fender Strat Mark played for a few months before it was revealed to be a fake -
I would imagine with two keyboard players added in 1981 things got a lot meatier
Does he think that the guitar Mark used at this show was his Fender with a maple neck, which was later discovered to not be an authentic American Fender? I don't know if that's what he mentioned, judging by the sound, but it is known that Mark used his Fender with neck in Rosewood for this last show, we have the video of SOS at the BBC Arena that reveals this.
Post by: Robson on October 01, 2023, 09:30:15 PM
Obviously the label initiated the project, with the ultimate blessing of Mark and John. I’m unsure about the multitracks
What about David and Pick's blessing? :)
Thank you for the important question jbaent :)
Post by: dustyvalentino on October 02, 2023, 10:15:15 AM
GF:
Obviously the label initiated the project, with the ultimate blessing of Mark and John. I’m unsure about the multitracks
What about David and Pick's blessing? :)
Thank you for the important question jbaent :)
Dire Straits Ltd is Mark and John.
Post by: jbaent on October 02, 2023, 01:04:17 PM
GF:
Obviously the label initiated the project, with the ultimate blessing of Mark and John. I’m unsure about the multitracks
What about David and Pick's blessing? :)
Thank you for the important question jbaent :)
Dire Straits Ltd is Mark and John.
Also Dire Straits Overseas.
Actually anything DS related are MK and John, since End Bicknell quit from all the companies.
Post by: ds1984 on October 02, 2023, 01:15:14 PM
Did I understood correctly?
David seems to focus only on the writting credits he will get paid for What’s The Matter Baby that is on 2 records
What about the royalties he will get as a performer on 28 tracks out of the 64 ?
It goes back to the days of sheet music but songwriting publishing has always been where the significant money is in music.
You are right about the matter.
Still, John Illsley became multi millionnaire within Dire Straits without writing one word for them. :think
Guy has made his comfortable living by working for Mark also without writing one single word.
Post by: jbaent on October 02, 2023, 01:44:56 PM
Did I understood correctly?
David seems to focus only on the writting credits he will get paid for What’s The Matter Baby that is on 2 records
What about the royalties he will get as a performer on 28 tracks out of the 64 ?
It goes back to the days of sheet music but songwriting publishing has always been where the significant money is in music.
You are right about the matter.
Still, John Illsley became multi millionnaire within Dire Straits without writing one word for them. :think
Guy has made his comfortable living by working for Mark also without writing one single word.
Because John is co-owner of all DS companies together with MK, all income that the DS trademark makes, goes to them, except songwriting money that goes just to MK.
Post by: ds1984 on October 02, 2023, 06:58:52 PM
Post by: TJ on October 02, 2023, 07:36:42 PM
Did I understood correctly?
David seems to focus only on the writting credits he will get paid for What’s The Matter Baby that is on 2 records
What about the royalties he will get as a performer on 28 tracks out of the 64 ?
It's just irony, he really doesn't care much about it.
I don't really know how the royalty system works, but many years ago (pre-2000), I corresponded with David a little by email. He said something to the effect that Ed (whom David referred to as "The Dildo") was somehow screwing him out of the royalties he deserved. I recall something about other miscellaneous deductions that were made by Mark's accountants that ate up everything David would have received. He seemed pretty upset about it at the time.
Post by: jbaent on October 02, 2023, 07:56:16 PM
As far as I recall DS were five at the beginning, including Ed, when David left, they were four and when Pick left three until 2000 when Ed resigned.
Post by: ds1984 on October 04, 2023, 06:54:22 PM
Alchemy
On The Night
Encores
Live At The BBC
Live At The Rainbow
So the day the box will arrive, I guess I will listen to On The Night bonuses first.
This is really what is the most attractive thing for me.
And probably followed by the full Live At The Rainbow concert.
And I will end by the Alchemy bonuses.
And you?
Post by: Robson on October 04, 2023, 07:08:28 PM
Alchemy
On The Night
Encores
Live At The BBC
Live At The Rainbow
Post by: straitsway75 on October 04, 2023, 07:23:10 PM
Post by: Robson on October 04, 2023, 07:28:11 PM
Live At The Rainbow
Alchemy
On The Night
Encores
Live At The BBC
Post by: KnopfleRick on October 04, 2023, 08:52:11 PM
Live At The Rainbow
and later on to
Encores
On The Night
Alchemy
Live At The BBC
Can't wait! :)
Post by: jbaent on October 04, 2023, 10:24:12 PM
The rest doesn't offer anything new so I won't listen to them, well, I might check if "Tunnel" in Live at the BBC is still from Werchter/Dortmund instead of the Old Grey Whistle Test, that I'm sure it will be still wrong and that will be all.
Post by: herlock on October 04, 2023, 10:37:59 PM
...for me the first track will be SOS 1992 :thumbsupFor me, TOL 1992. Never a soundboard before! Although I highly suspect it will be Rotterdam 30.05.1992. I listened to the audience recording, and the TOL end solo is nowhere near as good as Dortmund 1991. Oh well...
Then it will be Setting me up from the Rainbow. I only know of one soundboard, the first DS concert ever, Leeds 1978, and it is very similar to the album version, unlike end of 1979 versions that are more energetic.
Then it will be the other new tracks from OTN. High quality mixes of SOS and TR are certainly very interesting. The other songs do little to me, and ITILYTM is already available on Blu Ray (Knebworth 1990).
The rest I will see, but I'm afraid for Alchemy. Given the length, it seems that Guy did remove Mark's speech about the Spanish city on TOL, like in the original album, but unlike the Blu Ray. This is beyong me. The speech is very nice, with very sweet music, and he could just have left it !!!
Post by: jf9081 on October 05, 2023, 12:16:29 AM
On The Night
Live At The Rainbow
BBC
Encores
Alchemy (😑)
Post by: iorch82 on October 05, 2023, 11:18:42 PM
Post by: jf9081 on October 06, 2023, 01:56:00 AM
Post by: llombitos on October 06, 2023, 07:05:37 AM
Post by: onceupon84 on October 06, 2023, 08:15:36 AM
R&J is the same as 1984 mix.
Fucking worst transition between PB and TOL
And what about mixed "thank you very much" on R&J intro? Where came from?
Post by: Dutchessy on October 06, 2023, 08:29:06 AM
NO NEW MIX ON ALCHEMY.
R&J is the same as 1984 mix.
Fucking worst transition between PB and TOL
And what about mixed "thank you very much" on R&J intro? Where came from?
From the intro of Private investigations on the original Alchemy? Sounds to me as the same 'thank you very much'
Post by: jbaent on October 06, 2023, 09:24:48 AM
Can't believe this.
Post by: herlock on October 06, 2023, 09:31:10 AM
The whole point of Alchemy was to release a concert, with nothing changed or added.
I listened to the new tracks, and at least it is not worse than the original album. The mix is less powerful than 2010, yes, but the touching R&J synth intro is not half cut like on the video (my biggest regret on the blu Ray).
Listening to PB I felt the anger grow in me, thinking it could have been great to listen to the outro. Guy didn't even have the excuse of the space on vinyl. There is plenty of space left on the vinyl side (only 2 songs).. Ok let's not start again.
We don't have TOL yet but I strongly suspect, given the short length, that Mark's speech was edited out, as on the original album but unlike the blu Ray. The speech alone is worth preferring the blu Ray over the album...
What's next? I really hope they release TOL 92 before November 3rd!
Post by: peterromer on October 06, 2023, 09:42:49 AM
Since it is not mentioned its probably not the case.
Since Guy has been remixing it, then why not ATMOS also. That would make sense.
Post by: jbaent on October 06, 2023, 10:02:26 AM
Post by: Brunno Nunes on October 06, 2023, 01:53:36 PM
It is possible to see how they tried to resolve the ending of Portobello Belle, another bizarre thing that could have been avoided. :disbelief
Twisting by the Pool is pure fun, it's a shame a song like this was left aside, at least now many will be able to see its value.
Post by: herlock on October 06, 2023, 01:57:11 PM
In fact I can't understand why this beautiful song isn't getting the treatment it always deserved, cutting the final part is absurd, someone mentioned the fact that Mark introduces a band at the end and mentions the name Mel or Alan... because of DSL... Mark announces Mel Collins in the introduction of Portobello Belle. Anyway, it's all very bizarre. :smackGiven the length, it seems that TOL 92 is complete, with band intros, also introducing Alan Clark... So that is not the reason.
Twisting by the Pool is pure fun, it's a shame a song like this was left aside, at least now many will be able to see its value.
It is possible to see how they tried to resolve the ending of Portobello Belle, another bizarre thing that could have been avoided. :disbelief
Or maybe that he hates Tommy Mandel so much? Can't believe it. Anyway Guy could then have cut the band intros but not the jam outro, that would still have been better than this...
Post by: Brunno Nunes on October 06, 2023, 02:11:03 PM
It's very regrettable that they have all the necessary tools to respect the historical memory of the work Alchemy and they insist on sabotaging everything, a concert that historically valued being done in basically a single night, (except the end of Solid Rock) and no overdubs, (the minimum of the minimum). It's okay that Twisting by the Pool and Portobello Belle is from the first night, 07/22/83, but what was done on PB and probably on other tracks... is pure sabotage in my opinion, in bad taste to say the least. It is a shame that there is no sensitivity to respect the work Alchemy, giving it its due historical value, this is lacking on the part of those who organized this launch, it seems like a curse, even with all the technology available, but the ill will and disregard for Alchemy is bigger than I imagined.In fact I can't understand why this beautiful song isn't getting the treatment it always deserved, cutting the final part is absurd, someone mentioned the fact that Mark introduces a band at the end and mentions the name Mel or Alan... because of DSL... Mark announces Mel Collins in the introduction of Portobello Belle. Anyway, it's all very bizarre. :smackGiven the length, it seems that TOL 92 is complete, with band intros, also introducing Alan Clark... So that is not the reason.
Twisting by the Pool is pure fun, it's a shame a song like this was left aside, at least now many will be able to see its value.
It is possible to see how they tried to resolve the ending of Portobello Belle, another bizarre thing that could have been avoided. :disbelief
Or maybe that he hates Tommy Mandel so much? Can't believe it. Anyway Guy could then have cut the band intros but not the jam outro, that would still have been better than this...
Post by: dustyvalentino on October 06, 2023, 02:38:46 PM
someone mentioned the fact that Mark introduces a band at the end and mentions the name Mel or Alan... because of DSL... Mark announces Mel Collins in the introduction of Portobello Belle. Anyway, it's all very bizarre. :smack
I heard it was cut because Mel got vaccinated.
Seriously, repeating these crazy conspiracy theories doesn't help anyone. I'm sure Mel will still be mentioned at the end of Two Young Lovers, as has always been the case.
Post by: herlock on October 06, 2023, 02:39:55 PM
+1000It's very regrettable that they have all the necessary tools to respect the historical memory of the work Alchemy and they insist on sabotaging everything, a concert that historically valued being done in basically a single night, (except the end of Solid Rock) and no overdubs, (the minimum of the minimum). It's okay that Twisting by the Pool and Portobello Belle is from the first night, 07/22/83, but what was done on PB and probably on other tracks... is pure sabotage in my opinion, in bad taste to say the least. It is a shame that there is no sensitivity to respect the work Alchemy, giving it its due historical value, this is lacking on the part of those who organized this launch, it seems like a curse, even with all the technology available, but the ill will and disregard for Alchemy is bigger than I imagined.In fact I can't understand why this beautiful song isn't getting the treatment it always deserved, cutting the final part is absurd, someone mentioned the fact that Mark introduces a band at the end and mentions the name Mel or Alan... because of DSL... Mark announces Mel Collins in the introduction of Portobello Belle. Anyway, it's all very bizarre. :smackGiven the length, it seems that TOL 92 is complete, with band intros, also introducing Alan Clark... So that is not the reason.
Twisting by the Pool is pure fun, it's a shame a song like this was left aside, at least now many will be able to see its value.
It is possible to see how they tried to resolve the ending of Portobello Belle, another bizarre thing that could have been avoided. :disbelief
Or maybe that he hates Tommy Mandel so much? Can't believe it. Anyway Guy could then have cut the band intros but not the jam outro, that would still have been better than this...
Post by: wakeywakey on October 06, 2023, 06:37:06 PM
He might not be getting MFN but we need to ask him DYGI?
Post by: dmg on October 08, 2023, 07:02:05 PM
It's very regrettable that they have all the necessary tools to respect the historical memory of the work Alchemy and they insist on sabotaging everything, a concert that historically valued being done in basically a single night, (except the end of Solid Rock) and no overdubs, (the minimum of the minimum). It's okay that Twisting by the Pool and Portobello Belle is from the first night, 07/22/83, but what was done on PB and probably on other tracks... is pure sabotage in my opinion, in bad taste to say the least. It is a shame that there is no sensitivity to respect the work Alchemy, giving it its due historical value, this is lacking on the part of those who organized this launch, it seems like a curse, even with all the technology available, but the ill will and disregard for Alchemy is bigger than I imagined.In fact I can't understand why this beautiful song isn't getting the treatment it always deserved, cutting the final part is absurd, someone mentioned the fact that Mark introduces a band at the end and mentions the name Mel or Alan... because of DSL... Mark announces Mel Collins in the introduction of Portobello Belle. Anyway, it's all very bizarre. :smackGiven the length, it seems that TOL 92 is complete, with band intros, also introducing Alan Clark... So that is not the reason.
Twisting by the Pool is pure fun, it's a shame a song like this was left aside, at least now many will be able to see its value.
It is possible to see how they tried to resolve the ending of Portobello Belle, another bizarre thing that could have been avoided. :disbelief
Or maybe that he hates Tommy Mandel so much? Can't believe it. Anyway Guy could then have cut the band intros but not the jam outro, that would still have been better than this...
Totally agree. I wasn't really excited about hearing Alchemy once again; it's not my favourite tour and I've heard so often. However, to mess the up is like some botched restoration of an historical landmark building.
Those at the top probably thought we'll give it to one person who'll get it right, since he was in the band at the time! :think
Post by: qjamesfloyd on October 10, 2023, 11:05:11 AM
Post by: jbaent on October 10, 2023, 11:19:41 AM
I won't be listening to any of the songs until the box set is released so I can hear it all in full, I don't see the point as it's a concert.
Except "Live at the Rainbow", the others aren't a concert.
Alchemy is now a mix betwen the songs from the 23rd of July (the Alchemy originally released in 1984) mixed with songs from the 22nd of July, most of them with edited intros and/or outtros. A concert would be something that reflects all that happens in a concert. That's an edited record of songs from two concerts that as long as they are edited, don't reflect the concert.
On the night was a mix of various dates from different venues, actually every song had pieces from here and that, and this new one has that Frankestein songs plus different songs that usually were not played together in a concert (like Tunnel and Telegraph) so OTN is not a concert either.
So, for me it's perfectly fine to listen to those songs separatelly, as they are exactly that. Songs from different venues, different dates, and that are not a reflection of any concrete concert, but a mix of things.
Post by: qjamesfloyd on October 10, 2023, 11:54:00 AM
Post by: jbaent on October 10, 2023, 12:03:50 PM
I view a concert as a live performance, all the other bits really don't bother me, I am one of those few who never had a problem with On The Night, maybe my concerns have changed as I have gotten older. We have to accept that we we will never get 100% of what we want from these releases.
The thing here is that most of the times these releases are made by people who think about them as a studio work and they try to make them as they would do with a studio recording, instead of taking the live performance as it is, mix it, master it and release it.
Some of the most legendary live albums even have studio overdubs!
Alchemy claimed to be a live performance without that tricks and it sounds more like a live concert than other famous live records like "Live and dangerous" by Thin Lizzy, but in the end Alchemy had edits here and there, but at least they came all from the same gig, July 23rd at the Hammersmith, except the end of Solid rock that came from the 22nd.
OTN is really a Frankestein, and for me it always sounded like a studio record, which is logical when you think all the songs have pieces of different nights, a lot of studio work there.
The three tracks from the Rainbow 79 gig really sounds like a real live performance, I'm very much looking forward that one!
Post by: JF on October 10, 2023, 12:16:23 PM
I can't share it obviously...
when I'll find the time, I'll listen to it and will give you some informations...
Post by: jf9081 on October 10, 2023, 12:44:41 PM
this morning, I got a streaming link from universal with ALL tracks from the boxset
I can't share it obviously...
when I'll find the time, I'll listen to it and will give you some informations...
Wow! let us know your impressions soon. happy listening!!
Post by: dmg on October 10, 2023, 01:17:25 PM
I view a concert as a live performance, all the other bits really don't bother me, I am one of those few who never had a problem with On The Night, maybe my concerns have changed as I have gotten older. We have to accept that we we will never get 100% of what we want from these releases.
Agree with some of that. I think we have to allow all this to annoy us less and just enjoy our lot.
Post by: Robson on October 10, 2023, 01:32:26 PM
On the cover of Rainbow Theater is December 21st. We can be sure that it's a concert from start to finish (I hope):)
Post by: jbaent on October 10, 2023, 01:33:25 PM
I view a concert as a live performance, all the other bits really don't bother me, I am one of those few who never had a problem with On The Night, maybe my concerns have changed as I have gotten older. We have to accept that we we will never get 100% of what we want from these releases.
Agree with some of that. I think we have to allow all this to annoy us less and just enjoy our lot.
Oh yes, we can also enjoy it anyway, it is just that, in my case, I listen to a bootleg like a live concert, because it is what it is, but in the case of Alchemy and OTN, the experience is different as it is a product designed from a commercial point of view. In the case of the Rainbow 79, it is a live concert with all the little mistakes (at least the three songs we can listen now) so the experience is going to be more close to what we have when we listen a bootleg or we attend a concert than with Alchemy and specially OTN which is probably the further of this package to a live concert experience itself, for me.
Post by: JF on October 10, 2023, 02:18:21 PM
here are some infos :
Alchemy - just listened to starts/ends and only PB in "full"
- I already said what I think of butchering PB. the tansition with TOL is awful
- Mark's speech during the intro of TOL is cut like on the album version
- GH doesn't have Mark' speech neither
On The night
- TOL : I am not much found of 91-92 versions. but sounds nice. great intro with Mark saying "song from Making Movies". Due to lack of time, I must admit I just listened to the intro and breakdown. of course, the band introduction is here. duration of the song is 15:38
- when it comes to you : I like this song a lot. sounds great live. very nice solos
- fade to black : I like it. great Mark's playing imho, very "jazzy". two different keyboard solos. very nice
- ITILTM : very good intro. I prefer this version than the Knebworth one. Mark teasing the audience at the start.
- SOS : nothing special, we already knew many soundoard versions from this tour
- TR : idem
- TYL : idem
Live at the rainbow : I don't have the time to listen to it in full right now. so just listened to some snippets
sounds very nice. well mixed. all instruments are clearly audible. you can hear subtle things in David's playing
as you all know, Mark is on fire. very great playing and heartfull singing imho. talking between songs...
- I love six blade knife. great outro
- very nice versions of Lions, Once upon a time, Les Boys (great solo !) Portobello Belle, News, Gallery..
- amazing Setting me up and southbound again !
- gorgeous wild west end
- I noticed that David has his phaser effect on gallery and during the solo in southbound (and of course on whole waterline and once upon atime)
- at the start of TBTP, Matk shoot a "thank youuuu!!" like he will did futher before sultans
- songs with Phil Lynott are great
- the intro in that's allright mama sounds like freeway flyer
if you have special questions about something particular, songs lengths, etc... I can answer you, but of course I can't share the link. it's professionnal
Post by: vape68 on October 10, 2023, 02:26:55 PM
I don't have the time to listen to all now, but I managed to listen to some snippets during launch time pause
here are some infos :
Alchemy - just listened to starts/ends and only PB in "full"
- I already said what I think of butchering PB. the tansition with TOL is awful
- Mark's speech during the intro of TOL is cut like on the album version
- GH doesn't have Mark' speech neither
On The night
- TOL : I am not much found of 91-92 versions. but sounds nice. great intro with Mark saying "song from Making Movies". Due to lack of time, I must admit I just listened to the intro and breakdown. of course, the band introduction is here. duration of the song is 15:38
- when it comes to you : I like this song a lot. sounds great live. very nice solos
- fade to black : I like it. great Mark's playing imho, very "jazzy". two different keyboard solos. very nice
- ITILTM : very good intro. I prefer this version than the Knebworth one. Mark teasing the audience at the start.
- SOS : nothing special, we already knew many soundoard versions from this tour
- TR : idem
- TYL : idem
Live at the rainbow : I don't have the time to listen to it in full right now. so just listened to some snippets
sounds very nice. well mixed. all instruments are clearly audible. you can hear subtle things in David's playing
as you all know, Mark is on fire. very great playing and heartfull singing imho. talking between songs...
- I love six blade knife. great outro
- very nice versions of Lions, Once upon a time, Les Boys (great solo !) Portobello Belle, News, Gallery..
- amazing Setting me up and southbound again !
- gorgeous wild west end
- I noticed that David has his phaser effect on gallery and during the solo in southbound (and of course on whole waterline and once upon atime)
- at the start of TBTP, Matk shoot a "thank youuuu!!" like he will did futher before sultans
- songs with Phil Lynott are great
- the intro in that's allright mama sounds like freeway flyer
if you have special questions about something particular, songs lengths, etc... I can answer you, but of course I can't share the link. it's professionnal
Regarding the new songs, OTN has the same overall sound engineered feeling/compression of the original
or does it sound like a new recording ?
Post by: JF on October 10, 2023, 02:43:55 PM
Regarding the new songs, OTN has the same overall sound engineered feeling/compression of the original
or does it sound like a new recording ?
well I can't compare right now with the original, but switching from e.g YAYF and ITILYTM, to me it sounds like the same overall sound feeling between old and new songs
Post by: JF on October 10, 2023, 02:57:57 PM
Post by: Robson on October 10, 2023, 05:06:58 PM
Great! Can't wait
Post by: Robson on October 10, 2023, 05:07:26 PM
oh and I forgot : TOL from live at the BBC is again from the Dortmund gig ("danke schön" at the start)
But maybe the description in the book will be correct.
Post by: herlock on October 10, 2023, 05:17:28 PM
I don't have the time to listen to all now, but I managed to listen to some snippets during launch time pause
here are some infos :
Alchemy - just listened to starts/ends and only PB in "full"
- I already said what I think of butchering PB. the tansition with TOL is awful
- Mark's speech during the intro of TOL is cut like on the album version
- GH doesn't have Mark' speech neither
On The night
- TOL : I am not much found of 91-92 versions. but sounds nice. great intro with Mark saying "song from Making Movies". Due to lack of time, I must admit I just listened to the intro and breakdown. of course, the band introduction is here. duration of the song is 15:38
- when it comes to you : I like this song a lot. sounds great live. very nice solos
- fade to black : I like it. great Mark's playing imho, very "jazzy". two different keyboard solos. very nice
- ITILTM : very good intro. I prefer this version than the Knebworth one. Mark teasing the audience at the start.
- SOS : nothing special, we already knew many soundoard versions from this tour
- TR : idem
- TYL : idem
Live at the rainbow : I don't have the time to listen to it in full right now. so just listened to some snippets
sounds very nice. well mixed. all instruments are clearly audible. you can hear subtle things in David's playing
as you all know, Mark is on fire. very great playing and heartfull singing imho. talking between songs...
- I love six blade knife. great outro
- very nice versions of Lions, Once upon a time, Les Boys (great solo !) Portobello Belle, News, Gallery..
- amazing Setting me up and southbound again !
- gorgeous wild west end
- I noticed that David has his phaser effect on gallery and during the solo in southbound (and of course on whole waterline and once upon atime)
- at the start of TBTP, Matk shoot a "thank youuuu!!" like he will did futher before sultans
- songs with Phil Lynott are great
- the intro in that's allright mama sounds like freeway flyer
if you have special questions about something particular, songs lengths, etc... I can answer you, but of course I can't share the link. it's professionnal
Thanks JF !
Couple of comments / questions:
1) For TOL Alchemy this is a real waste to have cut the speech. It is a very nice moment on the Blu Ray.
2) For Alchemy, are the old songs mix similar than the original album ? To the 2010 one ?
3) For Going Home in Alchemy, how come the given time is one minute less than the album version (which did'nt have the speech either) ?
4) How is the transition betwwen Industrial Diseases and Expresso Love ? smooth ? or cut ?
5) For TOL on OTN, is it confirmed that it is from Rotterdam 30.05.92 ? If it is confirmed, then the end solo is less gorgeous than Munich 91...
Cheers
Post by: Dutchessy on October 10, 2023, 06:24:18 PM
Post by: jbaent on October 10, 2023, 09:03:25 PM
I think the sound quality we will get, make TOL92 superior to Munich91... Let's hope :)
It's just the OES band... it doesn't matter anyway, lol
Post by: JF on October 10, 2023, 11:33:29 PM
Thanks JF !
Couple of comments / questions:
1) For TOL Alchemy this is a real waste to have cut the speech. It is a very nice moment on the Blu Ray.
2) For Alchemy, are the old songs mix similar than the original album ? To the 2010 one ?
3) For Going Home in Alchemy, how come the given time is one minute less than the album version (which did'nt have the speech either) ?
4) How is the transition betwwen Industrial Diseases and Expresso Love ? smooth ? or cut ?
5) For TOL on OTN, is it confirmed that it is from Rotterdam 30.05.92 ? If it is confirmed, then the end solo is less gorgeous than Munich 91...
Cheers
Hi Vincent,
1) fully agree
2) I haven't check all songs entirely, but solid rock is for sure the same mix as on the original album. I didn't hear the saxo part like in the 2010 one. BTW solid rock is 5:35 in the box set, but 6:05 on the original album. The difference is more applause at the end on the original album.
3) yes, it's because the "new" version doesn't have the full intro with the rocks and water theme. I guess it was already the case in the video ?
4) as my link has separate files, I can't listen to them in a row. Expresso love starts at the first chord played by Hal, like on the video. Industrial Disease ends with the riff we can hear on the Alchemy album version. So the transition is perfect for me.
5) the link I have doesn't give any information about the source (see the screenshot)
Post by: herlock on October 10, 2023, 11:47:16 PM
For going home, the video and the album versions have exactly the same length (5'35), if you start after the speech and remove the clapping at the end. So I guess Guy cut some 20 seconds of intro on the "new" version! Another butcher's job, after TOL speech and PB outro!
So it seems to me that this new Alchemy has no interest. Same old mix, but with Going Home intro cut, and a strange "Thank you" added in the intro of R&J, which was never there.
The new Alchemy new tracks have little value: enough said about the cut outro of PB. As for ID and TBTP, I'm no fan of those... Just as curiosities.
I will stick with my blu Ray - better mix, and video!
I'm really looking forward to listening to TOL 92 (first ever soundboard) and to SMU on Rainbow 79 (no 79 soundboard so far). These 2 will be something!
Post by: Robson on October 10, 2023, 11:56:11 PM
Post by: jbaent on October 11, 2023, 08:02:51 AM
I'm searching for it but can't find it, I'm starting to think that we don't have it further than the audience recording...
Post by: jbaent on October 11, 2023, 08:11:43 AM
- On the night new songs are, apparently by what JF says, in full, and no new edits had been made to the existing ones
- Rainbow 79 songs, all new, are also apparently
- Alchemy songs are edited not only the new ones but also the existing ones.
WHY?
OTN versions of all songs were very long and there was no problem including them on full, but ALCHEMY ones needed to be edited here and there making them even shorter than the original release of 1984...
I don't understand anything at all...
Post by: herlock on October 11, 2023, 08:28:02 AM
In which "Alchemy" source do we have the MK speech before Romeo?Yes, it was not included on anything official.
I'm searching for it but can't find it, I'm starting to think that we don't have it further than the audience recording...
What is beyong comprehension in that in this speech you don't have any "thank you". But it seems that Guy found it fit to artificially add one!! Why so?
Post by: jbaent on October 11, 2023, 08:41:03 AM
In which "Alchemy" source do we have the MK speech before Romeo?Yes, it was not included on anything official.
I'm searching for it but can't find it, I'm starting to think that we don't have it further than the audience recording...
What is beyong comprehension in that in this speech you don't have any "thank you". But it seems that Guy found it fit to artificially add one!! Why so?
I can understand to do that with a totally unknown recording that was never released before as you could try to build a sensation, a feeling, doing these sorts of things, but "Alchemy" is a record that is so well known by fans that many of us know it by heart second by second, thank you by thank you, piano, guitar, bass or drum note by note...
It is great to have the chance to listen in soundboard sound "Industrial disease" or "Twisting by the pool" and also half of "Portobello belle" but if this work would had been made by a fan I'm sure it would had been the whole show without any edit. I also understand that Guy, as the studio proffesional he is, has a different view. And totally respect it, althought I disagree with it as I'm a fan and an ignorant when it comes to studio work.
Post by: JF on October 11, 2023, 09:38:23 AM
Thanks JF!
For going home, the video and the album versions have exactly the same length (5'35),
No, the album version is 6:05. it contains the rocks and water theme in intro, which doesn't feature on the video
https://youtu.be/gPA0gJG22I4
Post by: JF on October 11, 2023, 09:46:27 AM
- On the night new songs are, apparently by what JF says, in full, and no new edits had been made to the existing ones
- Rainbow 79 songs, all new, are also apparently
yes indeed.
I just listen to Sultans from OTN right now. The length is 11:51, and I don't hear any edit. BTW, it's mixed in the same way as you can hear from the audience : Phil Palmer and Chris White are on the right. (due to the fact it was mixed by Guy, it could have been mixed the other way, I mean from the point of view of the stage. it's sometimes the case in live albums)
Post by: herlock on October 11, 2023, 09:46:51 AM
The album version is 6'06, but only because it has a lot of clapping at the end, as I said. The "useful length" is only 5'35, which is exactly the length on the video from the end of Mark's speech to the last note of the song. And the video does have the full intro, I've just checked...Thanks JF!
For going home, the video and the album versions have exactly the same length (5'35),
No, the album version is 6:05. it contains the rocks and water theme in intro, which doesn't feature on the video
https://youtu.be/gPA0gJG22I4
Post by: Dutchessy on October 11, 2023, 09:54:26 AM
- On the night new songs are, apparently by what JF says, in full, and no new edits had been made to the existing ones
- Rainbow 79 songs, all new, are also apparently
yes indeed.
I just listen to Sultans from OTN right now. The length is 11:51, and I don't hear any edit. BTW, it's mixed in the same way as you can hear from the audience : Phil Palmer and Chris White are on the right. (due to the fact it was mixed by Guy, it could have been mixed the other way, I mean from the point of view of the stage. it's sometimes the case in live albums)
En does it sound any good? :)
Post by: JF on October 11, 2023, 09:56:24 AM
The album version is 6'06, but only because it has a lot of clapping at the end, as I said. The "useful length" is only 5'35, which is exactly the length on the video from the end of Mark's speech to the last note of the song. And the video does have the full intro, I've just checked...Thanks JF!
For going home, the video and the album versions have exactly the same length (5'35),
No, the album version is 6:05. it contains the rocks and water theme in intro, which doesn't feature on the video
https://youtu.be/gPA0gJG22I4
so it's worse than that then....
the version on the box set is 5:05 !
and it does'nt have the full intro
I remember my first Alchemy copy was a LP copy on a cassette, and I am quite sure it didn't have the full intro
does that mean Guy took the LP master tapes ? :think
Post by: JF on October 11, 2023, 10:00:11 AM
- On the night new songs are, apparently by what JF says, in full, and no new edits had been made to the existing ones
- Rainbow 79 songs, all new, are also apparently
yes indeed.
I just listen to Sultans from OTN right now. The length is 11:51, and I don't hear any edit. BTW, it's mixed in the same way as you can hear from the audience : Phil Palmer and Chris White are on the right. (due to the fact it was mixed by Guy, it could have been mixed the other way, I mean from the point of view of the stage. it's sometimes the case in live albums)
En does it sound any good? :)
I am at work and doesn't have a very good sound system. just an average headphone. But Yes I find the sound good
Remember I am not very found of the 91-92 era, so I don't listen to OES tour bootlegs very often, so my ears doesn't have very much references for soundboard recordings of this era... :)
I just find its sounds like OTN record, which is not my cupa ;D
Post by: herlock on October 11, 2023, 10:06:29 AM
I have mixed fellings about the OES tour. Yes it has many things going against it, as widely reported here, but...
- On the night new songs are, apparently by what JF says, in full, and no new edits had been made to the existing ones
- Rainbow 79 songs, all new, are also apparently
yes indeed.
I just listen to Sultans from OTN right now. The length is 11:51, and I don't hear any edit. BTW, it's mixed in the same way as you can hear from the audience : Phil Palmer and Chris White are on the right. (due to the fact it was mixed by Guy, it could have been mixed the other way, I mean from the point of view of the stage. it's sometimes the case in live albums)
En does it sound any good? :)
I am at work and doesn't have a very good sound system. just an average headphone. But Yes I find the sound good
Remember I am not very found of the 91-92 era, so I don't listen to OES tour bootlegs very often, so my ears doesn't have very much references for soundboard recordings of this era... :)
I just find its sounds like OTN record, which is not my cupa ;D
On the plus side, it is the only your I attended, so I have fond memories. Also, Mark's playing was at his best. Sultans was a great mix of old and new, the sax break is very touching. For TOL I agree that there are objective reasons going against it (short intro, Pensa tone which is not for everyone) but I can't help loving it, the Pensa soft sound makes it very romantic. For TR, it's another story. The song is ruined from the beginning (awful use of pedal steel, cut intro, lifeless vocals, out of place sax). The end solo is out of this world, granted, but this doesn't even save the version, as it is too fast and doesn't fit the song. 83/96/01/05 versions are so much better...
Post by: straitsway75 on October 11, 2023, 10:11:40 AM
JF thanks very much for your work.
- On the night new songs are, apparently by what JF says, in full, and no new edits had been made to the existing ones
- Rainbow 79 songs, all new, are also apparently
yes indeed.
I just listen to Sultans from OTN right now. The length is 11:51, and I don't hear any edit. BTW, it's mixed in the same way as you can hear from the audience : Phil Palmer and Chris White are on the right. (due to the fact it was mixed by Guy, it could have been mixed the other way, I mean from the point of view of the stage. it's sometimes the case in live albums)
About SOS 1992, in the first comment you seemed not to be enthusiastic, listening to it more now what do you think? :thumbsup
Post by: Dutchessy on October 11, 2023, 10:17:01 AM
Post by: dustyvalentino on October 11, 2023, 10:18:54 AM
I hope we hear Joop de Korte at Alchemy ;)
Don’t go there, removing the intro would be an act of gross vandalism!
Post by: Marnix on October 11, 2023, 10:43:25 AM
I still love (always loved, because it was my first DS live dvd as a teenager i guess,) on the night, so can't wait to here the new songs.
Me too and I am still happy that i saw this tour 2 times live in Rotterdam (Ahoy 1991 and De Kuip 1992) because it was the only DS tour i witnessed live.
Really looking forward hear the bonustracks especially ToL and ITILYM because they are probably from the night I was at Rotterdam.
Does MFN now has the teasing intro with the audience or isn't that still not included?
Post by: Dutchessy on October 11, 2023, 10:49:11 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhGksG08WKg
Post by: Marnix on October 11, 2023, 10:53:32 AM
Must be TOL from this one. He says something about Making Movies, like JF said.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhGksG08WKg
Yes! That's the show i visited
Post by: iorch82 on October 11, 2023, 11:03:53 AM
Gotta love how each fan has a very different taste :)I have mixed fellings about the OES tour. Yes it has many things going against it, as widely reported here, but...
- On the night new songs are, apparently by what JF says, in full, and no new edits had been made to the existing ones
- Rainbow 79 songs, all new, are also apparently
yes indeed.
I just listen to Sultans from OTN right now. The length is 11:51, and I don't hear any edit. BTW, it's mixed in the same way as you can hear from the audience : Phil Palmer and Chris White are on the right. (due to the fact it was mixed by Guy, it could have been mixed the other way, I mean from the point of view of the stage. it's sometimes the case in live albums)
En does it sound any good? :)
I am at work and doesn't have a very good sound system. just an average headphone. But Yes I find the sound good
Remember I am not very found of the 91-92 era, so I don't listen to OES tour bootlegs very often, so my ears doesn't have very much references for soundboard recordings of this era... :)
I just find its sounds like OTN record, which is not my cupa ;D
On the plus side, it is the only your I attended, so I have fond memories. Also, Mark's playing was at his best. Sultans was a great mix of old and new, the sax break is very touching. For TOL I agree that there are objective reasons going against it (short intro, Pensa tone which is not for everyone) but I can't help loving it, the Pensa soft sound makes it very romantic. For TR, it's another story. The song is ruined from the beginning (awful use of pedal steel, cut intro, lifeless vocals, out of place sax). The end solo is out of this world, granted, but this doesn't even save the version, as it is too fast and doesn't fit the song. 83/96/01/05 versions are so much better...
IMO best TR is from 92 just because the pedal steel ,MK using the dobro until the second solo, etc. Close to it 96 ones because Mark's playing - which I find even superior to OES tour - The band itself, I prefer the DS touch. So yeah this very new soundboard TR is a very welcomed perk for me!!
Post by: Dutchessy on October 11, 2023, 11:04:09 AM
Post by: JF on October 11, 2023, 11:20:07 AM
I hope we hear Joop de Korte at Alchemy ;)
Don’t go there, removing the intro would be an act of gross vandalism!
yes Joop and stargazer are still there ! :)
Post by: JF on October 11, 2023, 11:22:26 AM
JF thanks very much for your work.
- On the night new songs are, apparently by what JF says, in full, and no new edits had been made to the existing ones
- Rainbow 79 songs, all new, are also apparently
yes indeed.
I just listen to Sultans from OTN right now. The length is 11:51, and I don't hear any edit. BTW, it's mixed in the same way as you can hear from the audience : Phil Palmer and Chris White are on the right. (due to the fact it was mixed by Guy, it could have been mixed the other way, I mean from the point of view of the stage. it's sometimes the case in live albums)
About SOS 1992, in the first comment you seemed not to be enthusiastic, listening to it more now what do you think? :thumbsup
good sound and yes Mark is playing well. several "improvisation" licks... but a common usual version from this era to my ears. Nothing exceptionnal for my taste :)
and we do have differents tastes it's human :)
Post by: JF on October 11, 2023, 11:24:09 AM
Does MFN now has the teasing intro with the audience or isn't that still not included?
no, it's the same as on the album. no teasing intro
Post by: JF on October 11, 2023, 11:31:09 AM
Must be TOL from this one. He says something about Making Movies, like JF said.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhGksG08WKg
yes it's the same version
exactly same licks during the intro, and same Mark's voice saying about MM
I must admit I found it very nice although I rarely listen TOL from this tour
nice ambient guitar sound with lot of delay
Post by: JF on October 11, 2023, 11:35:55 AM
Really looking forward hear the bonustracks especially ToL and ITILYM because they are probably from the night I was at Rotterdam.
the ITILYM version is very nice, I love it, at the start, during bass/keyboard intro, Mark says something like "is eveybody fine here ?" and then "this one is not on any record... we just like to play some different stuff every now and again" not sure about the exact words, and I'm not very good in english language ;D
Post by: Dutchessy on October 11, 2023, 12:04:36 PM
Really looking forward hear the bonustracks especially ToL and ITILYM because they are probably from the night I was at Rotterdam.
the ITILYM version is very nice, I love it, at the start, during bass/keyboard intro, Mark says something like "is eveybody fine here ?" and then "this one is not on any record... we just like to play some different stuff every now and again" not sure about the exact words, and I'm not very good in english language ;D
That's also the version from Rotterdam 30 may, i just listened to it through the Youtube link i shared.
Post by: Leprechaun on October 11, 2023, 12:20:52 PM
Really looking forward hear the bonustracks especially ToL and ITILYM because they are probably from the night I was at Rotterdam.
the ITILYM version is very nice, I love it, at the start, during bass/keyboard intro, Mark says something like "is eveybody fine here ?" and then "this one is not on any record... we just like to play some different stuff every now and again" not sure about the exact words, and I'm not very good in english language ;D
Has 'I think I love you too much' ever been recorded in studio?
Post by: JF on October 11, 2023, 12:55:21 PM
Has 'I think I love you too much' ever been recorded in studio?
only with Jeff Healey I guess
Post by: jbaent on October 11, 2023, 01:18:09 PM
Has 'I think I love you too much' ever been recorded in studio?
only with Jeff Healey I guess
I asked Guy long ago in his forum and he said he remember recording it, but at the various live performances of the song MK sayd they didn't...
Post by: dustyvalentino on October 11, 2023, 02:08:14 PM
Has 'I think I love you too much' ever been recorded in studio?
only with Jeff Healey I guess
I asked Guy long ago in his forum and he said he remember recording it, but at the various live performances of the song MK sayd they didn't...
I can't remember exactly what he said, did he say it was never recorded or that it had never been on any record?
Post by: jbaent on October 11, 2023, 02:14:05 PM
Has 'I think I love you too much' ever been recorded in studio?
only with Jeff Healey I guess
I asked Guy long ago in his forum and he said he remember recording it, but at the various live performances of the song MK sayd they didn't...
I can't remember exactly what he said, did he say it was never recorded or that it had never been on any record?
I heard both on different concerts. I think in Dublin he said they didn't recorded it. But I'm talking by memory.
Post by: Marnix on October 11, 2023, 02:22:02 PM
No they didn't recorded it according to Mark what he said on various bootlegs although he suggested at the Knebworth show 1990 that the song could be on the next record or not ;D
Has 'I think I love you too much' ever been recorded in studio?
only with Jeff Healey I guess
I asked Guy long ago in his forum and he said he remember recording it, but at the various live performances of the song MK sayd they didn't...
I can't remember exactly what he said, did he say it was never recorded or that it had never been on any record?
I heard both on different concerts. I think in Dublin he said they didn't recorded it. But I'm talking by memory.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXl_Sf6Lwl8
Post by: ds1984 on October 11, 2023, 06:48:02 PM
I say that because Mark and Jeff did not meet in person for the duet, so Jeff had to get a demo tape first before doing it own recording. :think
Post by: ds1984 on October 11, 2023, 06:52:09 PM
Post by: Robson on October 11, 2023, 07:06:45 PM
I don't believe that anyone will come back to this album again.
Post by: jf9081 on October 11, 2023, 07:40:37 PM
Incredible . There is faith on the forum that Alchemy will be re-released from start to finish:) Why didn't they do it in 2023? I think Alchemy will be a closed chapter on November 3, 2023
I don't believe that anyone will come back to this album again.
it's true it was the right opportunity...shame!!! my hope is a complete new edition on bluray with the addition of an Atmos track that is starting to make its way into audio-video systems.
The problem, however, is the desire to release it complete, because it is a real mystery that it hasn't happened now.
Post by: dmg on October 13, 2023, 04:40:24 PM
Post by: jbaent on October 13, 2023, 04:49:15 PM
I was just thinking that perhaps there is a reason behind leaving out the ending of the song. Could it be possible copyright issues? The outro tune played between Mark and Mel is maybe not written by Mark. ;)
Yeah, certains Rodgers and Hammerstein are quite a pain in the ass...
Post by: Robson on October 13, 2023, 05:02:09 PM
Post by: dmg on October 13, 2023, 08:09:04 PM
Are we talking about Portobello Belle or Tunnel Of Love? ;)
PB obviously. I'm thinking maybe Alan composed it.
Post by: herlock on October 13, 2023, 09:32:46 PM
I would be very surprised that this is the reason.Are we talking about Portobello Belle or Tunnel Of Love? ;)
PB obviously. I'm thinking maybe Alan composed it.
Alan composed many things that were much more complex and valuable than this repetitive guitar/sax duel. Telegraph road piano arrangements, for instance... So why this would be an issue now?
Post by: Robson on October 13, 2023, 09:42:28 PM
Post by: quizzaciously on October 14, 2023, 04:23:50 PM
So that's the remastered version, right? Seems exactly the same thing to me lol.
Post by: ds1984 on October 14, 2023, 05:00:25 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1FvqitQglk
So that's the remastered version, right? Seems exactly the same thing to me lol.
As the box is an audio only release I don't think they cared about producing a new audio master for the promo video.
Post by: onceupon84 on October 14, 2023, 08:38:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1FvqitQglk
So that's the remastered version, right? Seems exactly the same thing to me lol.
Same video and audio from On The Night; I think it is not true HD 1080 master, but upscaled from DVD.
Post by: Robson on October 14, 2023, 09:27:17 PM
Post by: onceupon84 on October 14, 2023, 10:42:46 PM
For me the image is too sharp:)
Checked some frames and yes, it is slightly sharper than DVD edition! :clap
Post by: dmg on October 15, 2023, 12:53:44 PM
Post by: Terry82 on October 15, 2023, 12:59:42 PM
Post by: ds1984 on October 15, 2023, 02:09:06 PM
Listening to Twisting by the Pool, i noticed that is from the 22nd July, the night before. A pity that it doesnt comes from the 23rd July (in the case of Portobello Belle i dont know, i dont compare it with both bootlegs of 22 and 23). Seems that we never have a real uncut Alchemy.. anyway this new release is pure gold for all of us.
I am pretty confident that one day they will release both night in full.
The question is : "when ?"
Post by: jbaent on October 15, 2023, 04:09:46 PM
Listening to Twisting by the Pool, i noticed that is from the 22nd July, the night before. A pity that it doesnt comes from the 23rd July (in the case of Portobello Belle i dont know, i dont compare it with both bootlegs of 22 and 23). Seems that we never have a real uncut Alchemy.. anyway this new release is pure gold for all of us.
Portobello is also from 22nd.
Seems than Industrial is from 23rd.
Post by: dustyvalentino on October 15, 2023, 05:06:42 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1FvqitQglk
So that's the remastered version, right? Seems exactly the same thing to me lol.
Same video and audio from On The Night; I think it is not true HD 1080 master, but upscaled from DVD.
I believe it was filmed on SD video so it will never be that great, although I guess upscaling tech will improve in years to come.
Post by: Robson on October 15, 2023, 05:13:54 PM
Post by: jbaent on October 15, 2023, 09:46:00 PM
Do we know why in Alchemy there is Solid Rock first and then Telegraph Road?
Because that way it fits better in the LP and looks like the rest of formats inherited the tracklisting from the lps despite the CDs and digital have more capacity.
Post by: Robson on October 15, 2023, 10:05:34 PM
Do we know why in Alchemy there is Solid Rock first and then Telegraph Road?
Because that way it fits better in the LP and looks like the rest of formats inherited the tracklisting from the lps despite the CDs and digital have more capacity.
Weird. The first vinyl version of Alchemy (I have it) has Solid Rock and then Telegraph Road. Even more strange is why there is no authentic order on CD.
Post by: herlock on October 15, 2023, 10:08:37 PM
As JF already pointed out, it seems that Guy used the original LP master as its source. Hence the shorter Going Home. A shame!Do we know why in Alchemy there is Solid Rock first and then Telegraph Road?
Because that way it fits better in the LP and looks like the rest of formats inherited the tracklisting from the lps despite the CDs and digital have more capacity.
Weird. The first vinyl version of Alchemy (I have it) has Solid Rock and then Telegraph Road. Even more strange is why there is no authentic order on CD.
Post by: jbaent on October 16, 2023, 01:39:25 PM
The song is not in the Arena documentary as far as I recall so the joke is not featured, LOL
Post by: Robson on October 16, 2023, 02:11:12 PM
Post by: ds1984 on October 16, 2023, 06:46:54 PM
Of course up to now part of it were used for the documentary and that was the only thing released.
I imagine that there was something bigger intended for this on the time it happened but was later shelved.
Post by: onceupon84 on October 20, 2023, 04:49:34 PM
Post by: Robson on October 20, 2023, 05:42:01 PM
Post by: Marnix on October 20, 2023, 05:53:32 PM
Guy Fletcher won't even say where the version of Tunnel Of Love is from. Why is this a secret?
Feyenoord stadium, Rotterdam may 30th 1992
Post by: jf9081 on October 20, 2023, 05:59:50 PM
Friday... no news? no more tracks or YouTube videos?
Even today I was expecting some new tracks...I was hoping for OTN. Two Fridays left...they put a video of Walk Of Life on Instagram today...
Post by: Robson on October 20, 2023, 06:12:16 PM
Guy Fletcher won't even say where the version of Tunnel Of Love is from. Why is this a secret?
Feyenoord stadium, Rotterdam may 30th 1992
Thank you:) I hope the album booklet will have accurate descriptions
Post by: Dutchessy on October 20, 2023, 06:35:02 PM
Guy Fletcher won't even say where the version of Tunnel Of Love is from. Why is this a secret?
Feyenoord stadium, Rotterdam may 30th 1992
Thank you:) I hope the album booklet will have accurate descriptions
You can hear that TOL and ITILYTM some pages back through youtube video i posted
Post by: Robson on October 20, 2023, 06:51:33 PM
Post by: Robson on October 20, 2023, 10:22:16 PM
Guy Fletcher won't even say where the version of Tunnel Of Love is from. Why is this a secret?
Feyenoord stadium, Rotterdam may 30th 1992
Thank you:) I hope the album booklet will have accurate descriptions
GF:
No but you can always ask me
>:(
Post by: jbaent on October 21, 2023, 10:13:00 AM
Guy Fletcher won't even say where the version of Tunnel Of Love is from. Why is this a secret?
Feyenoord stadium, Rotterdam may 30th 1992
Thank you:) I hope the album booklet will have accurate descriptions
GF:
No but you can always ask me
>:(
Lol
Post by: JF on October 21, 2023, 10:19:20 AM
Guy Fletcher won't even say where the version of Tunnel Of Love is from. Why is this a secret?
Feyenoord stadium, Rotterdam may 30th 1992
Thank you:) I hope the album booklet will have accurate descriptions
GF:
No but you can always ask me
>:(
Lol
ah ah, Guy... you mean the personn who don't even know if Alchemy is from 22th or 23th ? ;D :lol :lol :lol
Post by: jbaent on October 21, 2023, 01:09:46 PM
Guy Fletcher won't even say where the version of Tunnel Of Love is from. Why is this a secret?
Feyenoord stadium, Rotterdam may 30th 1992
Thank you:) I hope the album booklet will have accurate descriptions
GF:
No but you can always ask me
>:(
Lol
ah ah, Guy... you mean the personn who don't even know if Alchemy is from 22th or 23th ? ;D :lol :lol :lol
He doesn't know because he wasn't there. And he doesn't mind.
Post by: Robson on October 21, 2023, 01:37:18 PM
Recorded at Les Arenes. Nimes. France and Feyenoord Stadium. Rotterdam. Netherlands - May 1993
I thought the description would be more detailed in the new version. I didn't think he wouldn't be there :(
Post by: cannibals on October 21, 2023, 02:06:35 PM
Guy knows the album booklet. I always thought he was not in the know of that sort of things.Guy Fletcher won't even say where the version of Tunnel Of Love is from. Why is this a secret?
Feyenoord stadium, Rotterdam may 30th 1992
Thank you:) I hope the album booklet will have accurate descriptions
GF:
No but you can always ask me
>:(
Lol
ah ah, Guy... you mean the personn who don't even know if Alchemy is from 22th or 23th ? ;D :lol :lol :lol
He doesn't know because he wasn't there. And he doesn't mind.
Post by: ds1984 on October 21, 2023, 04:04:44 PM
It is not uncommon that some fans are better informed than some "pros".
Guy is working on the music.
This is a paid job he has to do and I wonder about what real artistic liberty he has and time do do it ?
Post by: Marnix on October 22, 2023, 12:06:54 AM
The first version album On The Night contained general information:
Recorded at Les Arenes. Nimes. France and Feyenoord Stadium. Rotterdam. Netherlands - May 1993
I thought the description would be more detailed in the new version. I didn't think he wouldn't be there :(
Nimes was may 19-20-21 1992 and Feyenoord Stadium was may 29-30-31 and June 1 1992.
Post by: Robson on October 22, 2023, 02:24:37 AM
20.05 Les Arènes Nîmes France:
Heavy Fuel, Romeo And Juliet, The Bug, Private Investigations, Your Latest Trick, On Every Street
21.05 Les Arènes Nîmes France:
Calling Elvis
30.05 Feyenoord Stadium Rotterdam The Netherlands:
Walk Of Life, Wild Theme
31.05 Feyenoord Stadium Rotterdam The Netherlands:
You And Your Friend, Money For Nothing, Brothers In Arms, Solid Rock
? :
Sultans Of Swing
Fade To Black
When It Comes To You
I Think I Love You Too Much
Two Young Lovers
Tunnel of Love
Telegraph Road
Post by: Marnix on October 22, 2023, 09:19:04 AM
Yes, but too many mixes:
20.05 Les Arènes Nîmes France:
Heavy Fuel, Romeo And Juliet, The Bug, Private Investigations, Your Latest Trick, On Every Street
21.05 Les Arènes Nîmes France:
Calling Elvis
30.05 Feyenoord Stadium Rotterdam The Netherlands:
Walk Of Life, Wild Theme
31.05 Feyenoord Stadium Rotterdam The Netherlands:
You And Your Friend, Money For Nothing, Brothers In Arms, Solid Rock
? :
Sultans Of Swing
Fade To Black
When It Comes To You
I Think I Love You Too Much
Two Young Lovers
Tunnel of Love
Telegraph Road
According to On Every Bootleg was “ Calling Elvis” recorded in Rotterdam.
I think I love You too much and Tunnel of love are from Rotterdam may 30
Fade to Black (may 21) and When it comes to you are from Nimes
Telegraph road, Sultans of swing and Two young lovers are for now unknown which date
Post by: dmg on October 22, 2023, 11:30:50 AM
Yes, but too many mixes:
20.05 Les Arènes Nîmes France:
Heavy Fuel, Romeo And Juliet, The Bug, Private Investigations, Your Latest Trick, On Every Street
21.05 Les Arènes Nîmes France:
Calling Elvis
30.05 Feyenoord Stadium Rotterdam The Netherlands:
Walk Of Life, Wild Theme
31.05 Feyenoord Stadium Rotterdam The Netherlands:
You And Your Friend, Money For Nothing, Brothers In Arms, Solid Rock
? :
Sultans Of Swing
Fade To Black
When It Comes To You
I Think I Love You Too Much
Two Young Lovers
Tunnel of Love
Telegraph Road
According to On Every Bootleg was “ Calling Elvis” recorded in Rotterdam.
I think I love You too much and Tunnel of love are from Rotterdam may 30
Fade to Black (may 21) and When it comes to you are from Nimes
Telegraph road, Sultans of swing and Two young lovers are for now unknown which date
Well we have bootlegs from Nîmes 19,20 and 21st. Also Rotterdam 30 and 31st. We are only missing 29th and 1st June in Rotterdam.
I Think I Love You Too Much and ToL are likely from Rotterdam 30th as they weren't played any other night according to Setlist.fm although there's nothing there for the 29th so that remains a possibility. I suppose we'll need to wait and see.
Post by: onceupon84 on October 25, 2023, 06:41:22 PM
Post by: Marnix on October 25, 2023, 09:32:08 PM
TOL from alchemy on 4K now on YouTube!Sounds and looks like the 2010 version
Post by: onceupon84 on October 25, 2023, 11:29:20 PM
TOL from alchemy on 4K now on YouTube!Sounds and looks like the 2010 version
They are uploading clips from 2010 alchemy version, but in 4K. Blu-ray was 1080i.
Post by: dustyvalentino on October 26, 2023, 12:03:05 AM
Post by: Eddie Fox on October 26, 2023, 12:06:42 AM
Post by: herlock on October 26, 2023, 12:06:59 AM
Is it true 4K though? I seriously doubt they rescanned the negative.I actually don't see the point in any case.
Alchemy was filmed in rather poor quality, 35mm. Already on Blu Ray, the grain shows a lot, the DVD looks paradoxally better. I don't think this image will improve by up scaling it to 4K...
Post by: herlock on October 26, 2023, 12:08:51 AM
Any chance all this will be available in video too? A Blu-ray box with all these songs? I guess they have it on camera as well.I think they only have the original Alchemy master tape, after all the multicam rushes selection and edit. I don't think they still own the camera rushes to make a new film. Otherwise they would have released the complete movie in 2010...
Post by: dustyvalentino on October 26, 2023, 12:15:11 AM
Post by: jbaent on October 26, 2023, 07:59:46 AM
I recall it being scanned from 16mm film for the Blu-ray.
Wasn't the bluray already 4k? I'm lost with formats...
Post by: onceupon84 on October 26, 2023, 09:30:36 AM
Any chance all this will be available in video too? A Blu-ray box with all these songs? I guess they have it on camera as well.I think they only have the original Alchemy master tape, after all the multicam rushes selection and edit. I don't think they still own the camera rushes to make a new film. Otherwise they would have released the complete movie in 2010...
I think the same, they only have the final master tape with final video edition.
The 4K version is from 2010, but they compressed to 1080i to the BluRay edition.
OTN I think it is a digital recording so there will not 4K version, only 1080. It is like PInk Floyd 1988 Delicate Sound Of Thunder (4K restore) and 1994 Pulse (digital recording with limitations, so no 4K).
Post by: jf9081 on October 26, 2023, 10:01:33 AM
Any chance all this will be available in video too? A Blu-ray box with all these songs? I guess they have it on camera as well.
I've always wondered if the full video still exists...does it exist??
Post by: Marnix on October 26, 2023, 11:37:47 AM
Disc 1:
1. Calling Elvis
2. Walk Of Life
3. Heavy Fuel
4. Romeo And Juliet
5. The Bug
6. Private Investigations
7. Sultans Of Swing *
8. Fade To Black *
9. Your Latest Trick
10. When it comes to you *
11. I Think I Love You Too Much*
Disc 2:
12. You And Your Friend
13. On Every Street
14. Two Young Lovers*
15. Tunnel Of Love*
16. Telegraph Road*
17. Money For Nothing
18. Brothers In Ams
19. Solid Rock
20. Wild Theme
(*) previously unreleased
Post by: Robson on October 26, 2023, 01:22:19 PM
Post by: binone on October 26, 2023, 03:25:38 PM
It wasn't 35mm, but 16mmIs it true 4K though? I seriously doubt they rescanned the negative.I actually don't see the point in any case.
Alchemy was filmed in rather poor quality, 35mm. Already on Blu Ray, the grain shows a lot, the DVD looks paradoxally better. I don't think this image will improve by up scaling it to 4K...
Post by: herlock on October 26, 2023, 03:29:44 PM
I stand corrected.It wasn't 35mm, but 16mmIs it true 4K though? I seriously doubt they rescanned the negative.I actually don't see the point in any case.
Alchemy was filmed in rather poor quality, 35mm. Already on Blu Ray, the grain shows a lot, the DVD looks paradoxally better. I don't think this image will improve by up scaling it to 4K...
All the more, what 4k upscaling can bring to this picture, if not even more grain?
Post by: Pottel on October 26, 2023, 03:36:42 PM
Moooorrreee pixxxelllllI stand corrected.It wasn't 35mm, but 16mmIs it true 4K though? I seriously doubt they rescanned the negative.I actually don't see the point in any case.
Alchemy was filmed in rather poor quality, 35mm. Already on Blu Ray, the grain shows a lot, the DVD looks paradoxally better. I don't think this image will improve by up scaling it to 4K...
All the more, what 4k upscaling can bring to this picture, if not even more grain?
Post by: herlock on October 26, 2023, 03:41:00 PM
You benefit from a higher resolution if the source material is qualitative enough. In the case of Alchemy, the performance is outstanding, the sound quality is top notch, but the image is poor, nothing much can be done about it, unless you clean the film image by image, which I don't think they are willing to do. Higher resolution just mean that you see the grain even more. If you compare the DVD with the blu Ray, surprisingly the former looks better than the later, because of the grain. Now imagine a 4K UHD version of that... I seriously doubt it will do it any good!Moooorrreee pixxxelllllI stand corrected.It wasn't 35mm, but 16mmIs it true 4K though? I seriously doubt they rescanned the negative.I actually don't see the point in any case.
Alchemy was filmed in rather poor quality, 35mm. Already on Blu Ray, the grain shows a lot, the DVD looks paradoxally better. I don't think this image will improve by up scaling it to 4K...
All the more, what 4k upscaling can bring to this picture, if not even more grain?
Post by: onceupon84 on October 26, 2023, 06:59:58 PM
It wasn't 35mm, but 16mmIs it true 4K though? I seriously doubt they rescanned the negative.I actually don't see the point in any case.
Alchemy was filmed in rather poor quality, 35mm. Already on Blu Ray, the grain shows a lot, the DVD looks paradoxally better. I don't think this image will improve by up scaling it to 4K...
True, 16mm.
Post by: ds1984 on October 26, 2023, 08:00:18 PM
Any chance all this will be available in video too? A Blu-ray box with all these songs? I guess they have it on camera as well.I think they only have the original Alchemy master tape, after all the multicam rushes selection and edit. I don't think they still own the camera rushes to make a new film. Otherwise they would have released the complete movie in 2010...
I think the same, they only have the final master tape with final video edition.
The 4K version is from 2010, but they compressed to 1080i to the BluRay edition.
OTN I think it is a digital recording so there will not 4K version, only 1080. It is like PInk Floyd 1988 Delicate Sound Of Thunder (4K restore) and 1994 Pulse (digital recording with limitations, so no 4K).
I think you are confusing "digital" with "video".
Neither "Pulse" or "OTN" are digital but analog video.
Digital video already existed in 1994 but was very uncommon.
Montreux Jazz Festival was among the few to shoot digital at the time.
Post by: onceupon84 on October 26, 2023, 08:05:27 PM
Any chance all this will be available in video too? A Blu-ray box with all these songs? I guess they have it on camera as well.I think they only have the original Alchemy master tape, after all the multicam rushes selection and edit. I don't think they still own the camera rushes to make a new film. Otherwise they would have released the complete movie in 2010...
I think the same, they only have the final master tape with final video edition.
The 4K version is from 2010, but they compressed to 1080i to the BluRay edition.
OTN I think it is a digital recording so there will not 4K version, only 1080. It is like PInk Floyd 1988 Delicate Sound Of Thunder (4K restore) and 1994 Pulse (digital recording with limitations, so no 4K).
I think you are confusing "digital" with "video".
Neither "Pulse" or "OTN" are digital but analog video.
Digital video already existed in 1994 but was very uncommon.
Montreux Jazz Festival was among the few to shoot digital at the time.
I think you're right.
Delicate Sound Of thunder was recorded on 35mm, so the restored version is incredible.
Alchemy was recorded on 16mm, so restoration is very limited (and grainy in high resolutions).
OTN and Pulse are SD video recordings, so they can't get the same restoration as DSOT.
Post by: Robson on October 27, 2023, 12:16:26 AM
Post by: jf9081 on October 27, 2023, 01:23:59 AM
Post by: herlock on October 27, 2023, 02:10:34 AM
Too bad, I had hoped for TOL for the OES section teasing...
Post by: Jolsk on October 27, 2023, 03:20:49 AM
Three more songs released (spotify) this time by OTN, I Think I Love You Too Much, The Bug and Walk Of LifeThis new mix of ITILYTM sounds better than the rest of the OTN mixing, Mark's voice sound more "natural".
Post by: quizzaciously on October 27, 2023, 08:32:21 AM
Three more songs released (spotify) this time by OTN, I Think I Love You Too Much, The Bug and Walk Of LifeThis new mix of ITILYTM sounds better than the rest of the OTN mixing, Mark's voice sound more "natural".
Never was a fan of I Think I Love You Too Much for some reason. I think it doesn't have the same level of uniqness and repleyability as other Mark's songs, that's why it was never recorder for an album. Never missed it either. New mixes seem good, definitely nothing revolutionary, but return to live material is always welcome. Because this band sounds a million times better live anyway.
Post by: Marnix on October 27, 2023, 11:22:16 AM
Post by: kaleo74 on October 27, 2023, 12:49:26 PM
Post by: vape68 on October 27, 2023, 02:10:25 PM
Post by: Dutchessy on October 27, 2023, 02:19:33 PM
Nice version but I can't hear Phil Palmer's solo properly, it sounds like behind a wall, anyone else same problem ?
Which solo is that? I have no video so i can't see ;D
Post by: vape68 on October 27, 2023, 02:27:20 PM
Nice version but I can't hear Phil Palmer's solo properly, it sounds like behind a wall, anyone else same problem ?
Which solo is that? I have no video so i can't see ;D
the 2 solos at 4:59-5:15 and 5:51-6:07, almost unlistenable, while Mark and Pedal steel solos are perfect
Post by: Dutchessy on October 27, 2023, 02:34:03 PM
Nice version but I can't hear Phil Palmer's solo properly, it sounds like behind a wall, anyone else same problem ?
Which solo is that? I have no video so i can't see ;D
the 2 solos at 4:59-5:15 and 5:51-6:07, almost unlistenable, while Mark and Pedal steel solos are perfect
Yeah, it's indeed not as loud as the MK solo's.
Post by: vape68 on October 27, 2023, 03:09:47 PM
Nice version but I can't hear Phil Palmer's solo properly, it sounds like behind a wall, anyone else same problem ?
Which solo is that? I have no video so i can't see ;D
the 2 solos at 4:59-5:15 and 5:51-6:07, almost unlistenable, while Mark and Pedal steel solos are perfect
Yeah, it's indeed not as loud as the MK solo's.
the first sounds bad, like behind a wall, but the 2nd sounds even worse than the 1st, basically unlistenable, never heard anything like this in an official live of any artist, boycotted ? can't think of another reason
Post by: jbaent on October 27, 2023, 03:11:54 PM
Maybe his volume was lower and he hadn't effects or things like the rest, and everyone was playing very loud on stage in this song.
Post by: iorch82 on October 27, 2023, 03:20:20 PM
Three more songs released (spotify) this time by OTN, I Think I Love You Too Much, The Bug and Walk Of LifeThis new mix of ITILYTM sounds better than the rest of the OTN mixing, Mark's voice sound more "natural".
Never was a fan of I Think I Love You Too Much for some reason. I think it doesn't have the same level of uniqness and repleyability as other Mark's songs, that's why it was never recorder for an album. Never missed it either. New mixes seem good, definitely nothing revolutionary, but return to live material is always welcome. Because this band sounds a million times better live anyway.
Knewborth one is really cool IMO. OES tour ones, meh. The extra chord feels really unnatural after listening to the original version.
Post by: superval99 on October 27, 2023, 03:50:27 PM
Three more songs released (spotify) this time by OTN, I Think I Love You Too Much, The Bug and Walk Of LifeThis new mix of ITILYTM sounds better than the rest of the OTN mixing, Mark's voice sound more "natural".
Never was a fan of I Think I Love You Too Much for some reason. I think it doesn't have the same level of uniqness and repleyability as other Mark's songs, that's why it was never recorder for an album. Never missed it either. New mixes seem good, definitely nothing revolutionary, but return to live material is always welcome. Because this band sounds a million times better live anyway.
Knewborth one is really cool IMO. OES tour ones, meh. The extra chord feels really unnatural after listening to the original version.
Both Knebworth and NHB Snape are excellent!
Post by: vape68 on October 27, 2023, 04:04:46 PM
I can listen to Palmer's solos without any problem...
Maybe his volume was lower and he hadn't effects or things like the rest, and everyone was playing very loud on stage in this song.
this is a SBD, not an audience recording, there's a major mixing problem here
Post by: jbaent on October 27, 2023, 04:12:05 PM
I can listen to Palmer's solos without any problem...
Maybe his volume was lower and he hadn't effects or things like the rest, and everyone was playing very loud on stage in this song.
this is a SBD, not an audience recording, there's a major mixing problem here
Ask Guy, the mixer.
Post by: vape68 on October 27, 2023, 04:30:48 PM
I can listen to Palmer's solos without any problem...
Maybe his volume was lower and he hadn't effects or things like the rest, and everyone was playing very loud on stage in this song.
this is a SBD, not an audience recording, there's a major mixing problem here
Ask Guy, the mixer.
If they boycotted Phil Palmer on purpose they are not gonna admit it, I can't think of another reason.
I can't think they casually left him out by error.
Post by: Dutchessy on October 27, 2023, 04:46:09 PM
I can listen to Palmer's solos without any problem...
Maybe his volume was lower and he hadn't effects or things like the rest, and everyone was playing very loud on stage in this song.
this is a SBD, not an audience recording, there's a major mixing problem here
Ask Guy, the mixer.
If they boycotted Phil Palmer on purpose they are not gonna admit it, I can't think of another reason.
I can't think they casually left him out by error.
Can't imagine at all they did that. That would be ridiculous, besides the solo is there, just not that loud, but that seems normal to me. Let's wait for the other tunes.
Post by: herlock on October 27, 2023, 04:50:19 PM
Stalinism applied to music?! Can't believe it...I can listen to Palmer's solos without any problem...
Maybe his volume was lower and he hadn't effects or things like the rest, and everyone was playing very loud on stage in this song.
this is a SBD, not an audience recording, there's a major mixing problem here
Ask Guy, the mixer.
If they boycotted Phil Palmer on purpose they are not gonna admit it, I can't think of another reason.
I can't think they casually left him out by error.
Post by: dustyvalentino on October 27, 2023, 04:52:54 PM
Post by: Dutchessy on October 27, 2023, 05:03:22 PM
I guess Guy just didn't like the solo so got rid of it, like half of Portobello Belle ;D
Yes, because that's what Mark wanted ::)
Post by: olazabalrok on October 27, 2023, 06:25:16 PM
Post by: naif on October 27, 2023, 06:53:27 PM
Well, not really impressed with any of these new live mixes. I guess the Rainbow and Alchemy mixes are alright, but the mix on I Think I Love You Too Much…to me it’s lacking the punch and energy that the original On the Night mixes have. It’s really not in the same ballpark even. Way too much reverb, too muddy, not enough compression/parallel compression, drum kit balance totally different, MK’s vocals lack the clarity and overall the mix lacks some rock’n roll that this tour still had. But it’s been all the same since Guy started mixing MK’s projects so it’s exactly what you can expect from him.
I totally agree. Ever since Guy got involved, the dynamics of the music have become incredibly weak. The drums sound like they're miles away. There's no emphasis. Of course, that's obviously what Mark wants. It's sad.
Post by: jf9081 on October 27, 2023, 07:15:42 PM
I guess Guy just didn't like the solo so got rid of it, like half of Portobello Belle ;D
Yes, because that's what Mark wanted ::)
Ahahahahah :clap
Post by: iorch82 on October 27, 2023, 07:35:09 PM
Well, not really impressed with any of these new live mixes. I guess the Rainbow and Alchemy mixes are alright, but the mix on I Think I Love You Too Much…to me it’s lacking the punch and energy that the original On the Night mixes have. It’s really not in the same ballpark even. Way too much reverb, too muddy, not enough compression/parallel compression, drum kit balance totally different, MK’s vocals lack the clarity and overall the mix lacks some rock’n roll that this tour still had. But it’s been all the same since Guy started mixing MK’s projects so it’s exactly what you can expect from him.
I am not getting this impression by any means, for me it totally sounds to OTN.
Post by: kaleo74 on October 27, 2023, 07:41:16 PM
I think it mixes for advanced audio systems like Spacial Audio or 7.1 systems and so on. It doesn't fit in with the audio systems that most people use and especially not with my AirPods Pro.Well, not really impressed with any of these new live mixes. I guess the Rainbow and Alchemy mixes are alright, but the mix on I Think I Love You Too Much…to me it’s lacking the punch and energy that the original On the Night mixes have. It’s really not in the same ballpark even. Way too much reverb, too muddy, not enough compression/parallel compression, drum kit balance totally different, MK’s vocals lack the clarity and overall the mix lacks some rock’n roll that this tour still had. But it’s been all the same since Guy started mixing MK’s projects so it’s exactly what you can expect from him.
I totally agree. Ever since Guy got involved, the dynamics of the music have become incredibly weak. The drums sound like they're miles away. There's no emphasis. Of course, that's obviously what Mark wants. It's sad.
Post by: Robson on October 27, 2023, 07:43:54 PM
Post by: jbaent on October 27, 2023, 07:47:12 PM
Can we wait until November 3? ;)
With the remaining songs, yes.
Post by: Robson on October 27, 2023, 08:03:34 PM
Can we wait until November 3? ;)
With the remaining songs, yes.
:) Attitude is very important.
Post by: Rolleyway Man on October 27, 2023, 08:10:02 PM
Well, not really impressed with any of these new live mixes. I guess the Rainbow and Alchemy mixes are alright, but the mix on I Think I Love You Too Much…to me it’s lacking the punch and energy that the original On the Night mixes have. It’s really not in the same ballpark even. Way too much reverb, too muddy, not enough compression/parallel compression, drum kit balance totally different, MK’s vocals lack the clarity and overall the mix lacks some rock’n roll that this tour still had. But it’s been all the same since Guy started mixing MK’s projects so it’s exactly what you can expect from him.
I totally agree. Ever since Guy got involved, the dynamics of the music have become incredibly weak. The drums sound like they're miles away. There's no emphasis. Of course, that's obviously what Mark wants. It's sad.
Give me strength ::)
Post by: vape68 on October 27, 2023, 08:16:08 PM
I guess Guy just didn't like the solo so got rid of it, like half of Portobello Belle ;D
Hehe
The version is 30 May from Rotterdam.
In the audience recording Phil Palmer's 2 solos at the end are very loud and crystal clear.
In this soundboard recording there's a major mixing/spatial problem,
it's like one of those sounds in a movie that are crystal clear in a Dolby Digital sound environment but they
partially disappear in a stereo environment, same here, without any doubt a major error imo
or something done on purpose...
Post by: Knopflerfan on October 27, 2023, 08:23:01 PM
So it's on in the early hours of Saturday 28th October BBC4 at 00.30hrs ARENA - Dire Straits
Post by: wakeywakey on October 27, 2023, 09:04:12 PM
Not particularly off topic as the programme being shown tonight on BBC4 shows DS at the rainbow.
So it's on in the early hours of Saturday 28th October BBC4 at 00.30hrs ARENA - Dire Straits
Guy must have written the programme description ;D
>Arena cameras were on hand to film the return of Dire Straits from their triumphant 1980 Brothers in Arms world tour. The film features a superb concert they played at The Rainbow, and band members talk about their music and the pressures and the consequences of success.
58 minutes
Post by: dustyvalentino on October 28, 2023, 12:40:05 AM
it’s lacking the punch and energy that the original On the Night mixes have.
I’m holding off listening until I have the physical copies but this does not fill me with confidence. On The Night sounds like the inside of a dog’s arsehole.
Post by: Dutchessy on October 28, 2023, 01:21:29 AM
I can listen to Palmer's solos without any problem...
Maybe his volume was lower and he hadn't effects or things like the rest, and everyone was playing very loud on stage in this song.
this is a SBD, not an audience recording, there's a major mixing problem here
Ask Guy, the mixer.
If they boycotted Phil Palmer on purpose they are not gonna admit it, I can't think of another reason.
I can't think they casually left him out by error.
Listened on my big speakers through Marantz (instead of pc audio) and Phil is way louder there, his solos are clearly there.
Post by: 2manyguitars on October 28, 2023, 10:54:10 AM
Post by: olazabalrok on October 28, 2023, 11:42:59 AM
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the mix in question. Marks guitar is in the centre, the other 2 instruments are panned left and right in stereo, lower left/right in atmos/7.1. Anyone hearing anything different needs to stop spreading panic about the upcoming physical releases and check their equipment.....
Is it even available in Atmos? I didn’t think that was the case. Ofcourse the instruments are there, but Phil’s guitar solo should be more upfront and have the mids back when he’s taking the solos. Basic principles of mixing really. Also the aesthetics of the mix are not what the aesthetics were for the OES tour and that’s the problem for me. You should always mix for the right aesthetics, not as if this was a folk song but take it as a rock song.
Post by: 2manyguitars on October 28, 2023, 12:47:34 PM
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the mix in question. Marks guitar is in the centre, the other 2 instruments are panned left and right in stereo, lower left/right in atmos/7.1. Anyone hearing anything different needs to stop spreading panic about the upcoming physical releases and check their equipment.....
Is it even available in Atmos? I didn’t think that was the case. Ofcourse the instruments are there, but Phil’s guitar solo should be more upfront and have the mids back when he’s taking the solos. Basic principles of mixing really. Also the aesthetics of the mix are not what the aesthetics were for the OES tour and that’s the problem for me. You should always mix for the right aesthetics, not as if this was a folk song but take it as a rock song.
I run a small studio. Teaching, recording, mixing and producing is my job.
There is nothing wrong with these mixes bar personal taste. As for 'mixing for the right ascetics', no engeneer or producer worth their salt would take any preconceptions into a mix. You deal with what's in front of you not what you think it should sound like. Especially with live material....
Post by: ds1984 on October 28, 2023, 02:15:31 PM
I was among the happy few to be able to hear Richard's amp directly from the stage and SAN never sounded that good after that and litterally sounded like sh.t on all soundboards release.
Live release are somewhat always a little frustration when I attended some gig of the tour.
But I have to live with that.
Post by: vape68 on October 28, 2023, 02:17:23 PM
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the mix in question. Marks guitar is in the centre, the other 2 instruments are panned left and right in stereo, lower left/right in atmos/7.1. Anyone hearing anything different needs to stop spreading panic about the upcoming physical releases and check their equipment.....
Is it even available in Atmos? I didn’t think that was the case. Ofcourse the instruments are there, but Phil’s guitar solo should be more upfront and have the mids back when he’s taking the solos. Basic principles of mixing really. Also the aesthetics of the mix are not what the aesthetics were for the OES tour and that’s the problem for me. You should always mix for the right aesthetics, not as if this was a folk song but take it as a rock song.
I run a small studio. Teaching, recording, mixing and producing is my job.
There is nothing wrong with these mixes bar personal taste. As for 'mixing for the right ascetics', no engeneer or producer worth their salt would take any preconceptions into a mix. You deal with what's in front of you not what you think it should sound like. Especially with live material....
After your input which I appreciate, I have expanded my check of the mix from 4 equipments in my house to 6,
adding 2 equipments from a friend of mine.
In some equipments the overall volume/sound of Phil Palmer's 1st solo (4:59-5:15) is louder/better than other equipments which alone tells you there's something wrong, but above all in all 6 equipments the 2nd solo (5:51-6:07) is clearly at a much lower volume than the 1st (4:59-5:15), so there's definitely a mixing problem.
Post by: dmg on October 28, 2023, 05:36:27 PM
Post by: JF on October 28, 2023, 06:41:03 PM
As I said before, unrelated specificly to this release but including it,since I am a concert goer I am in a opinion regarding live release where I'd wish to access to the multitrack and do my own mix.
I was among the happy few to be able to hear Richard's amp directly from the stage and SAN never sounded that good after that and litterally sounded like sh.t on all soundboards release.
Live release are somewhat always a little frustration when I attended some gig of the tour.
But I have to live with that.
makes me remember the STP multitracks file that was avalaible on offical site. You could mix diffrrent tracks (not all instruments though)
Post by: 2manyguitars on October 29, 2023, 01:56:10 AM
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the mix in question. Marks guitar is in the centre, the other 2 instruments are panned left and right in stereo, lower left/right in atmos/7.1. Anyone hearing anything different needs to stop spreading panic about the upcoming physical releases and check their equipment.....
Is it even available in Atmos? I didn’t think that was the case. Ofcourse the instruments are there, but Phil’s guitar solo should be more upfront and have the mids back when he’s taking the solos. Basic principles of mixing really. Also the aesthetics of the mix are not what the aesthetics were for the OES tour and that’s the problem for me. You should always mix for the right aesthetics, not as if this was a folk song but take it as a rock song.
I run a small studio. Teaching, recording, mixing and producing is my job.
There is nothing wrong with these mixes bar personal taste. As for 'mixing for the right ascetics', no engeneer or producer worth their salt would take any preconceptions into a mix. You deal with what's in front of you not what you think it should sound like. Especially with live material....
After your input which I appreciate, I have expanded my check of the mix from 4 equipments in my house to 6,
adding 2 equipments from a friend of mine.
In some equipments the overall volume/sound of Phil Palmer's 1st solo (4:59-5:15) is louder/better than other equipments which alone tells you there's something wrong, but above all in all 6 equipments the 2nd solo (5:51-6:07) is clearly at a much lower volume than the 1st (4:59-5:15), so there's definitely a mixing problem.
What are you playing it on and from what source? It's far far more likely to be an equipment fault your end such as a speaker(s) out of phase or device level sound processing rather than a mixing error.
Use logic and ask yourself this. What is the variable here? Because its not the source its the different setups youre using. I've played that song on my 7.1 presonus studio speakers, my atmos enabled tablet, my phone, and my old stereo hifi and have been unable to recreate what you're describing. ...
Post by: olazabalrok on October 29, 2023, 08:24:30 AM
What are you playing it on and from what source? It's far far more likely to be an equipment fault your end such as a speaker(s) out of phase or device level sound processing rather than a mixing error.
Use logic and ask yourself this. What is the variable here? Because its not the source its the different setups youre using. I've played that song on my 7.1 presonus studio speakers, my atmos enabled tablet, my phone, and my old stereo hifi and have been unable to recreate what you're describing. ...
Where did you find the Atmos source of the mixes? Because if it’s just stereo source then all this talk about 7.1 systems and atmos devices is irrelevant. Besides a great mix will translate well across different equipment and certainly a solo part should be well up front no matter what device you are listening.
Couple more points about the mix itself, check out the panning of the drums, the toms are panned the opposite compared to On the Night, a simplest thing to match if you want to make mixes cohesive. And just compare the mix of I think i love you too much to the mix of The bug, there’s just so much more energy and drive in the mix of the Bug.
I’ve never been a fan of mixes by Guy, they are flat and boring but of course this is my personal taste. It just would have been great to have someone else to mix these.
Post by: vape68 on October 29, 2023, 02:33:14 PM
What are you playing it on and from what source? It's far far more likely to be an equipment fault your end such as a speaker(s) out of phase or device level sound processing rather than a mixing error.
Use logic and ask yourself this. What is the variable here? Because its not the source its the different setups youre using. I've played that song on my 7.1 presonus studio speakers, my atmos enabled tablet, my phone, and my old stereo hifi and have been unable to recreate what you're describing. ...
Where did you find the Atmos source of the mixes? Because if it’s just stereo source then all this talk about 7.1 systems and atmos devices is irrelevant. Besides a great mix will translate well across different equipment and certainly a solo part should be well up front no matter what device you are listening.
Couple more points about the mix itself, check out the panning of the drums, the toms are panned the opposite compared to On the Night, a simplest thing to match if you want to make mixes cohesive. And just compare the mix of I think i love you too much to the mix of The bug, there’s just so much more energy and drive in the mix of the Bug.
I’ve never been a fan of mixes by Guy, they are flat and boring but of course this is my personal taste. It just would have been great to have someone else to mix these.
Completely agree on everything you said :thumbsup
Post by: vape68 on October 29, 2023, 02:55:34 PM
If you listen to the audience recording Phil's 2nd solo starts at 1:06:53 and it's a very nice one to my taste but
he makes a major error while playing, out of tone lick, at about 1:06:59-1:07:01
So it's done on purpose intentionally for this reason, not to boycott Phil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhGksG08WKg&t=5593s
Post by: 2manyguitars on October 29, 2023, 04:00:11 PM
What are you playing it on and from what source? It's far far more likely to be an equipment fault your end such as a speaker(s) out of phase or device level sound processing rather than a mixing error.
Use logic and ask yourself this. What is the variable here? Because its not the source its the different setups youre using. I've played that song on my 7.1 presonus studio speakers, my atmos enabled tablet, my phone, and my old stereo hifi and have been unable to recreate what you're describing. ...
Where did you find the Atmos source of the mixes? Because if it’s just stereo source then all this talk about 7.1 systems and atmos devices is irrelevant. Besides a great mix will translate well across different equipment and certainly a solo part should be well up front no matter what device you are listening.
Couple more points about the mix itself, check out the panning of the drums, the toms are panned the opposite compared to On the Night, a simplest thing to match if you want to make mixes cohesive. And just compare the mix of I think i love you too much to the mix of The bug, there’s just so much more energy and drive in the mix of the Bug.
I’ve never been a fan of mixes by Guy, they are flat and boring but of course this is my personal taste. It just would have been great to have someone else to mix these.
And thats all fine, personal opinion about a mix. No problem there.
There is a problem when you're saying that one part is basically missing or severely reduced in volume. Given where PPs guitar is positioned in the mix I would bet that phase cancellation due to a software or hardware error is the issue here.
Again, what devices are you using to using to listen on?
Post by: iorch82 on October 29, 2023, 06:15:45 PM
My theory is that Guy lowered Phil Palmer's 2nd solo volume for a reason,
If you listen to the audience recording Phil's 2nd solo starts at 1:06:53 and it's a very nice one to my taste but
he makes a major error while playing, out of tone lick, at about 1:06:59-1:07:01
So it's done on purpose intentionally for this reason, not to boycott Phil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhGksG08WKg&t=5593s
Wow, such a pity because he smoked both solos! I bet Knopfler thrown one of his trademark death stares after such mistake.
Post by: Pierre on October 29, 2023, 06:35:47 PM
or maybe I need to have my ears checked :hmm
Post by: jbaent on October 29, 2023, 06:45:49 PM
Post by: vape68 on October 29, 2023, 07:16:10 PM
I can't listen any mistakes. Actually Palmer is a high profile proffesional that plays always safe, as it's his work to do things properly.
All players in the world do mistakes sometimes, Knopfler Gilmour Clapton included
Post by: iorch82 on October 29, 2023, 08:15:04 PM
I can't hear any such mistakes as you guys seem to hear so distinctly, to my ears he's playing a palm muted ascending lick in the tonality of the song.
or maybe I need to have my ears checked :hmm
There's a very obvious out of key note at 1:07:00 on the descending run.
Post by: JF on October 30, 2023, 09:53:46 AM
I can't hear any such mistakes as you guys seem to hear so distinctly, to my ears he's playing a palm muted ascending lick in the tonality of the song.
or maybe I need to have my ears checked :hmm
There's a very obvious out of key note at 1:07:00 on the descending run.
yes agree. but only ONE note
not really a big mistake
Post by: Pierre on October 30, 2023, 10:50:19 AM
Post by: TheTimeWasWrong on October 30, 2023, 12:25:02 PM
Post by: vape68 on October 30, 2023, 01:38:09 PM
I can't hear any such mistakes as you guys seem to hear so distinctly, to my ears he's playing a palm muted ascending lick in the tonality of the song.
or maybe I need to have my ears checked :hmm
There's a very obvious out of key note at 1:07:00 on the descending run.
yes agree. but only ONE note
not really a big mistake
Frankly it's clearly 2 notes at different stages of the run which overall sounds really bad because of those 2 errors. The rest of the solo is great. Anyway the point is that Guy lowered the volume because of that.
Post by: vape68 on October 30, 2023, 02:16:18 PM
I don't care about Phil's mistake, but the inconsistency in mixes is my main concern. OTN never sounded great, and while I think ITILYTM doesn't sound great either, they should have made a clear choice. Choose the atmosphere of the original OTN mixes, or remix the whole thing. Killer guitar playing and sound by MK, though, but Guy's mixes sound so 'empty'. In a weird way, the new mixes of the Rainbow concert, Alchemy, and OTN sound the same. It's like he has one preset for drums. I can hear the players and the instruments being different, but it all feels the same though they mark very different eras of the band.
I do care about Phil's mistakes. I mean the overall solo was absolutely great and I would have loved to hear it at the same volume of Mark's and Paul's solos. After a 1-year tour these guys have only 1 show with that song to choose from and have to use a recording with problems ?
Post by: straitsway75 on October 30, 2023, 03:22:27 PM
Post by: Knut on October 30, 2023, 10:57:36 PM
I don't care about Phil's mistake, but the inconsistency in mixes is my main concern. OTN never sounded great, and while I think ITILYTM doesn't sound great either, they should have made a clear choice. Choose the atmosphere of the original OTN mixes, or remix the whole thing. Killer guitar playing and sound by MK, though, but Guy's mixes sound so 'empty'. In a weird way, the new mixes of the Rainbow concert, Alchemy, and OTN sound the same. It's like he has one preset for drums. I can hear the players and the instruments being different, but it all feels the same though they mark very different eras of the band.
I do care about Phil's mistakes. I mean the overall solo was absolutely great and I would have loved to hear it at the same volume of Mark's and Paul's solos. After a 1-year tour these guys have only 1 show with that song to choose from and have to use a recording with problems ?
Errors are a part of a live show, and after listening to it it's safe to say that even Mark himself did similar things now and then.
Post by: Knut on October 30, 2023, 11:05:33 PM
I can't hear any such mistakes as you guys seem to hear so distinctly, to my ears he's playing a palm muted ascending lick in the tonality of the song.
or maybe I need to have my ears checked :hmm
It sounds like either a bad judgement/impro idea or his fingers didn't do what he wanted to. But it's a minor thing. In fact, if you click the timestamp and listen to the TOL solo you won't have to wait long before Mark himself butchers something.
At 1:33:53 he's clearly headed out on the field somewhere and has to get back on track. Now, if he did indeed give Phil a "stare of death" for his bum note, did Mark carry a mirror on stage with him during the OES show?
(quite frankly, you can't work well together if you rule by fear of mistakes, so I'm sure they both laughed at it if there was a reaction - I seem to recall that has happened before.)
Post by: Robson on October 30, 2023, 11:30:41 PM
I don't care about Phil's mistake, but the inconsistency in mixes is my main concern. OTN never sounded great, and while I think ITILYTM doesn't sound great either, they should have made a clear choice. Choose the atmosphere of the original OTN mixes, or remix the whole thing. Killer guitar playing and sound by MK, though, but Guy's mixes sound so 'empty'. In a weird way, the new mixes of the Rainbow concert, Alchemy, and OTN sound the same. It's like he has one preset for drums. I can hear the players and the instruments being different, but it all feels the same though they mark very different eras of the band.
I do care about Phil's mistakes. I mean the overall solo was absolutely great and I would have loved to hear it at the same volume of Mark's and Paul's solos. After a 1-year tour these guys have only 1 show with that song to choose from and have to use a recording with problems ?
Errors are a part of a live show, and after listening to it it's safe to say that even Mark himself did similar things now and then.
Of course. Mark is aware of mistakes, but... 'the singer is always right' :)
Post by: Jolsk on October 31, 2023, 12:16:35 AM
The full Alchemy concert will be available November 1st. I reckon it's the complete 2010 Blu-ray version
Post by: Marnix on October 31, 2023, 05:46:11 PM
I know there is edit in “Walk of Life” at the end where Mark is talking to the audience.
The teasing intro from “Money for Nothing” was also missing.
Am I missing anything? Just curious
Post by: border_reiver on October 31, 2023, 07:56:52 PM
Which songs on the original OTN are edited?
I know there is edit in “Walk of Life” at the end where Mark is talking to the audience.
The teasing intro from “Money for Nothing” was also missing.
Am I missing anything? Just curious
I was "today years old" when I also found out that they have cut in MK's WOL lyrics from a verse sung on another date that Rotterdam 92/05/30.
Starts at around 14:50 in this clip.
https://youtu.be/qhGksG08WKg?si=TjEmz0bHpERYNcOp (https://youtu.be/qhGksG08WKg?si=TjEmz0bHpERYNcOp)
On OTN, the verse is completely different. That part starts around the 2.45 mark.
Edit. That specific verse matches Rotterdam 92/05/31.
Am I missing something? :)
Post by: Marnix on October 31, 2023, 08:09:02 PM
Which songs on the original OTN are edited?
I know there is edit in “Walk of Life” at the end where Mark is talking to the audience.
The teasing intro from “Money for Nothing” was also missing.
Am I missing anything? Just curious
I was "today years old" when I also found out that they have cut in MK's WOL lyrics from a verse sung on another date that Rotterdam 92/05/30.
Starts at around 14:50 in this clip.
https://youtu.be/qhGksG08WKg?si=TjEmz0bHpERYNcOp (https://youtu.be/qhGksG08WKg?si=TjEmz0bHpERYNcOp)
On OTN, the verse is completely different. That part starts around the 2.45 mark.
Edit. That specific verse matches Rotterdam 92/05/31.
Am I missing something? :)
Thnx !
Post by: Marnix on October 31, 2023, 08:10:28 PM
https://www.guyfletcher.co.uk/dire-straits-live-box-set-2023/
Post by: border_reiver on October 31, 2023, 08:12:33 PM
Here's the OTN part at around 14.25
https://youtu.be/qWSYTdpCD7Q?si=tgSMGCZJHavaglkH (https://youtu.be/qWSYTdpCD7Q?si=tgSMGCZJHavaglkH)
Post by: Dutchessy on October 31, 2023, 08:18:52 PM
Post by: Marnix on October 31, 2023, 08:19:33 PM
No word about the Alchemy mess...
My thoughts also!
Post by: border_reiver on October 31, 2023, 08:22:26 PM
No word about the Alchemy mess...
I have to admit I zoomed out when this started to be discussed here and the number of pages sprouted away. Is there some kind of summary about this? :)
Post by: herlock on October 31, 2023, 08:34:44 PM
The Alchemy version that will be released on Friday consists of:No word about the Alchemy mess...
I have to admit I zoomed out when this started to be discussed here and the number of pages sprouted away. Is there some kind of summary about this? :)
1) The songs already released in 1984, with no new mix, with some cuts, some harmless (like the ending of PB before TOL and a lot of clapping), some problematic (the beginning of GH is cut, it seems that the source is the original vinyl rather than the original CD).
One oddity, a "Thank you!" from Mark was added at the beginning of R&J, whereas it is featured neither on July 22nd nor July 23rd!
The excellent 2010 mix (the blu Ray one) by Chuck Ainlay was not reused, which is pity because it was much better, and also featured Mark's speeches in TOL and GH INTRO.
2) The 3 missing songs, with a clear 2023 new mix. EL and TBTP are complete, but for PB, only the extended intro was kept. The extended outro, and especially the guitar / sax duel between Mark and Mel has been cut, with a fade out leading directly to TOL intro.
Overall, a lost opportunity IMHO...
Post by: Robson on October 31, 2023, 08:43:15 PM
It's beautiful and touching. Thanks Guy.
Post by: border_reiver on October 31, 2023, 08:55:04 PM
The Alchemy version that will be released on Friday consists of:No word about the Alchemy mess...
I have to admit I zoomed out when this started to be discussed here and the number of pages sprouted away. Is there some kind of summary about this? :)
1) The songs already released in 1984, with no new mix, with some cuts, some harmless (like the ending of PB before TOL and a lot of clapping), some problematic (the beginning of GH is cut, it seems that the source is the original vinyl rather than the original CD).
One oddity, a "Thank you!" from Mark was added at the beginning of R&J, whereas it is featured neither on July 22nd nor July 23rd!
The excellent 2010 mix (the blu Ray one) by Chuck Ainlay was not reused, which is pity because it was much better, and also featured Mark's speeches in TOL and GH INTRO.
2) The 3 missing songs, with a clear 2023 new mix. EL and TBTP are complete, but for PB, only the extended intro was kept. The extended outro, and especially the guitar / sax duel between Mark and Mel has been cut, with a fade out leading directly to TOL intro.
Overall, a lost opportunity IMHO...
Thanks pal!
Post by: ds1984 on October 31, 2023, 09:04:37 PM
A diary is online about the Live box
https://www.guyfletcher.co.uk/dire-straits-live-box-set-2023/
Thanks
Interesting history
Post by: herlock on October 31, 2023, 09:15:37 PM
"Technically, the Rainbow show was as well recorded as everything in this collection (apart from TOL on Encores)".A diary is online about the Live box
https://www.guyfletcher.co.uk/dire-straits-live-box-set-2023/
Thanks
Interesting history
What does he mean?? There is no TOL on the Encores, does he mean TOL 92, which would be badly recorded? The only track I really care about???
Post by: dustyvalentino on October 31, 2023, 09:33:05 PM
Also, fake stereo on TOL from Live at the BBC, urgh. I thought this died out in the 70s.
Post by: Dutchessy on October 31, 2023, 09:57:21 PM
"Technically, the Rainbow show was as well recorded as everything in this collection (apart from TOL on Encores)".A diary is online about the Live box
https://www.guyfletcher.co.uk/dire-straits-live-box-set-2023/
Thanks
Interesting history
What does he mean?? There is no TOL on the Encores, does he mean TOL 92, which would be badly recorded? The only track I really care about???
I think he means TOL from BBC, he just explained in the part before
Post by: herlock on October 31, 2023, 10:04:12 PM
I hope so!"Technically, the Rainbow show was as well recorded as everything in this collection (apart from TOL on Encores)".A diary is online about the Live box
https://www.guyfletcher.co.uk/dire-straits-live-box-set-2023/
Thanks
Interesting history
What does he mean?? There is no TOL on the Encores, does he mean TOL 92, which would be badly recorded? The only track I really care about???
I think he means TOL from BBC, he just explained in the part before
Post by: Dutchessy on October 31, 2023, 10:05:03 PM
JF said it was good..
Post by: Vesper on October 31, 2023, 10:57:34 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-NUOtvr7B8
The full Alchemy concert will be available November 1st. I reckon it's the complete 2010 Blu-ray version
It now says November 8th.
I'm hoping the new songs are on this video version as well.
It says full live concert so I guess so...
Post by: dmg on October 31, 2023, 11:03:22 PM
"Technically, the Rainbow show was as well recorded as everything in this collection (apart from TOL on Encores)".A diary is online about the Live box
https://www.guyfletcher.co.uk/dire-straits-live-box-set-2023/
Thanks
Interesting history
What does he mean?? There is no TOL on the Encores, does he mean TOL 92, which would be badly recorded? The only track I really care about???
I think he means TOL from BBC, he just explained in the part before
Correct. :thumbsup
Nice tribute to Jack Sonni but it would've been even nicer to include something with him playing in the box itself as a proper lasting tribute.
Post by: K-alberto on November 01, 2023, 12:04:59 AM
No word about the Alchemy mess...
I have to admit I zoomed out when this started to be discussed here and the number of pages sprouted away. Is there some kind of summary about this? :)
I try: someone would better have a bonus disc with the outro of Portobello live and all the mistakes of Phil Palmer, loud as they can be. Not that big market, I guess...
Post by: vape68 on November 01, 2023, 01:21:20 AM
I try: someone would better have a bonus disc with the outro of Portobello live and all the mistakes of Phil Palmer, loud as they can be. Not that big market, I guess...
No one wants to hear Phil Palmer's errors but just a normal version without problems.
Post by: Robson on November 02, 2023, 12:44:29 PM
Post by: JF on November 02, 2023, 03:28:30 PM
Me too... Im really hyped for TOL 92...
JF said it was good..
yes it is
Post by: JF on November 02, 2023, 03:30:42 PM
Post by: rmarques821 on November 02, 2023, 03:47:37 PM
saying the box is dedicated to Jack Sonni, while the box dosen't contain any BIA tour recording is a bit odd imho...I thought the same, it's quite a ridiculous statement.
Post by: localhero1986 on November 02, 2023, 03:51:06 PM
saying the box is dedicated to Jack Sonni, while the box dosen't contain any BIA tour recording is a bit odd imho...I thought the same, it's quite a ridiculous statement.
The only way they could have done that is by starting this project all over again. It took years before they were able to release these recordings. Even pressing the vinyl takes months so it’s impossible to add a BIA tour recording last minute into the box set. A pity of course, but there’s no one to blame here…
Post by: rmarques821 on November 02, 2023, 05:12:32 PM
That's right, but why does Guy say this is dedicated to Jack Sonni when the only tour he was involved in doesn't even feature? It's just a bizarre statement.saying the box is dedicated to Jack Sonni, while the box dosen't contain any BIA tour recording is a bit odd imho...I thought the same, it's quite a ridiculous statement.
The only way they could have done that is by starting this project all over again. It took years before they were able to release these recordings. Even pressing the vinyl takes months so it’s impossible to add a BIA tour recording last minute into the box set. A pity of course, but there’s no one to blame here…
He could've simply said "we will miss him very much" or something like that. But it's just a small detail, I suppose
Post by: wakeywakey on November 02, 2023, 05:23:45 PM
Check out ID here:https://wetransfer.com/downloads/7b8618997d5ce4ea0b63f8eeac57fbce20231102162131/2315ab and let me know if my hearing is going!
Post by: vape68 on November 02, 2023, 05:52:56 PM
It is weird listening to Industrial Disease after OUATITW and although nice to hear it isn't up to the standards of the original release.It almost sounds like some of it comes from an audience recording.The next song EL sounds much better.
let me know if my hearing is going!
Totally agree !
Post by: localhero1986 on November 02, 2023, 06:05:07 PM
It is weird listening to Industrial Disease after OUATITW and although nice to hear it isn't up to the standards of the original release.It almost sounds like some of it comes from an audience recording.The next song EL sounds much better.
Check out ID here:https://wetransfer.com/downloads/7b8618997d5ce4ea0b63f8eeac57fbce20231102162131/2315ab and let me know if my hearing is going!
I used to have very nice recording of OUATITW - ID - EL all together, but it got lost after a computer crash. I almost hated myself for losing this recording. Since that day, I always have 6 back ups. :lol
Post by: wakeywakey on November 02, 2023, 06:34:46 PM
I'll stick to the previous releases of Alchemy and OTN.
Please do not send any messages asking for uploaded content because ID is the only one I'm going to do.
I do hope you all enjoy tomorrow.
Post by: vape68 on November 02, 2023, 06:50:47 PM
Tunnel of Love intro is stunning, super good
Post by: herlock on November 02, 2023, 06:53:59 PM
Listening to On The Night right nowHow? Is the online versions already available? Can't find them on YouTube music...
Tunnel of Love intro is stunning, super good
Post by: vape68 on November 02, 2023, 07:08:05 PM
Listening to On The Night right nowHow? Is the online versions already available? Can't find them on YouTube music...
Tunnel of Love intro is stunning, super good
Some boxes already delivered
MK's guitar has a TON of delay/reverb during Tunnel and Telegraph solos, some might like it, some others not at all
Overall feeling is not like On The Night, but just like the I think I love you too much sound on spotify, very dry
Telegraph sounds like the Unknown/Oslo 92 SBD show, I mean same sound, not same show
Post by: olazabalrok on November 02, 2023, 07:09:20 PM
It seems most care went into The Rainbow show and to be fair that does sound the best.
I'll stick to the previous releases of Alchemy and OTN.
Please do not send any messages asking for uploaded content because ID is the only one I'm going to do.
I do hope you all enjoy tomorrow.
Well the Rainbow show is only a four piece band so very simple to mix.
Post by: Fletch on November 02, 2023, 08:26:38 PM
How? Is the online versions already available? Can't find them on YouTube music...
All songs are now on Spotify here. Enjoy!
Post by: richardmu on November 02, 2023, 08:44:57 PM
New Alchemy tracks sound like bootlegs and OTN songs are a mess.
1979 is interesting, needs multiple listens.
Just opinions
Post by: Robson on November 02, 2023, 08:59:53 PM
How to understand?
Post by: jbaent on November 02, 2023, 09:06:50 PM
"New Alchemy tracks sound like bootlegs"
How to understand?
A friend of mine told me the same, industrial disease sounds like it comes from a bootleg, vert different to Once upon a time and Espresso love.
Post by: vape68 on November 02, 2023, 09:07:05 PM
Listened all new tracks - Re-enforces beliefs I have had for years. 1. Guy Fletcher is a terrible producer. 2. I really dislike Chris Whitten playing drums.
New Alchemy tracks sound like bootlegs and OTN songs are a mess.
Just opinions
Unfortunately you are right
The underlying material is so great that it makes the new OTN still enjoyable
BUT
1) this is really terribly produced
2) lots of microerrors by MK everywhere vs literally zero in the original On The Night,
as if they had to use the only 1 version they had and who cares ...
3) all songs do not sound like the original OTN at all, sometimes very dry, drums often sound crap
4) PensaSuhr in Tunnel OTN is extremely effected which has a very wierd feeling
5) Alchemy ... new songs sound like an audience bootleg more than a SBD, incredible yes
Post by: Robson on November 02, 2023, 09:16:37 PM
Post by: naif on November 02, 2023, 09:21:35 PM
I don't want to be critical right now. The '79 recording alone is enough to mesmerize. It's a crime that such important recordings were kept hidden for almost 50 years!
Post by: rmarques821 on November 02, 2023, 09:45:53 PM
I did like Tunnel of Love and When It Comes To You! Very cool to hear this rarely played song!
Post by: Vesper on November 02, 2023, 10:10:20 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-NUOtvr7B8
The full Alchemy concert will be available November 1st. I reckon it's the complete 2010 Blu-ray version
It now says November 8th.
I'm hoping the new songs are on this video version as well.
It says full live concert so I guess so...
First postponed, now it is deleted...
Post by: wakeywakey on November 02, 2023, 11:00:51 PM
A stunning performance and a real pleasure to listen to.I am on my third listen as I type-yep it's that good.
How the hell can a pro make Alchemy sound worse?
I was never a big fan of OTN but again this sounds worse than the original.
The added songs are nice to have but so many issues with both "classic" DS live albums.
I am so impressed with the 79 show that I'll forgive the "many" errors.
Post by: Beryl on November 03, 2023, 01:02:48 AM
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 03, 2023, 01:04:15 AM
If you don't get goosebumps with the version of Setting me UP, you're not alive, what energy...
Rainbow Theater 79 was the most delightful thing I've heard in a long time, i entered heaven, I'm in a state of grace, I listened with my headphones, I'm floating here, still processing the experience! :wave
Post by: Jolsk on November 03, 2023, 01:45:37 AM
Live at the Rainbow sounds fantastic though.
Post by: herlock on November 03, 2023, 01:47:42 AM
I can't stand Alchemy being the old mix, and above all the intro (the rock and the thunder) cut in GH!! This is criminal...
Post by: Dutchessy on November 03, 2023, 01:49:56 AM
Post by: herlock on November 03, 2023, 04:14:43 AM
Post by: border_reiver on November 03, 2023, 07:56:58 AM
I know of fans that no longer are among us who always hoped for something like this. That "something must be somewhere" kind of faith. It makes me sad to think of. That reluctance which stood in the way for so many years.
That being said. The collection is an amazing time capsule. The complete OTN and Rainbow are alone worth the price tag.
I'm no audiophile but I have full respect for those who are. I can't tell what's A and what's B by (currently) listening through Spotify.
Anyhow. Keep in mind that this probably never would have happened unless we had Guy. Don't forget to give him that gratitude. :)
Post by: knopfler1 on November 03, 2023, 08:14:20 AM
Post by: localhero1986 on November 03, 2023, 09:29:38 AM
TOL is awesome!!
Yes indeed! Great version!
Post by: iorch82 on November 03, 2023, 10:28:07 AM
It's a shame it had to take decades for the gems to emerge.
I know of fans that no longer are among us who always hoped for something like this. That "something must be somewhere" kind of faith. It makes me sad to think of. That reluctance which stood in the way for so many years.
That being said. The collection is an amazing time capsule. The complete OTN and Rainbow are alone worth the price tag.
I'm no audiophile but I have full respect for those who are. I can't tell what's A and what's B by (currently) listening through Spotify.
Anyhow. Keep in mind that this probably never would have happened unless we had Guy. Don't forget to give him that gratitude. :)
My thoughts exactly. In my case, being a huge OES fan, I remember back in 1994 thinking "Why the f** there is not this or that in this CD?". 30 damn years after we got this. On a nitpicky note, I don't really dig the clean Pensa Suhr sound in these new recordings. Sounds muffled and lifeless, compared to the Basel recording to name one which is full of richness and detail. Other than that I quite like the new songs. I Think I Love you too Much is huge. Also Fade To Black. When It Comes To You is a great gem, though I would have preferred a zillion times a good PONO. SoS, well, not the best SoS out there but I love that you can hear PP in all its glory doing the rhythm guitar! TR I dig a lot vocal performance - guitar wise not really special. The ending solo sound is so weird with all that delay.
Post by: regaran on November 03, 2023, 11:12:28 AM
I have made a full listening of OTN, Alchemy and Rainbow.
Here are my coments:
ALCHEMY: additonal songs 'Twisting' and 'Portobello' are really great and make a real plus to the all concert. But 'Industrial Disease' is horrible, clearly a big issue there.
OTN: For me a live concert record should reflect the moment. I never liked OTN because it was too much produced, overdubbed, no ambiance... A live album is not a studio album.
I prefer really Nimes, Basel or Wobburn Abbey. The problem with these soundboards is that it is exactly the same setlist.
The new songs added to OTN are not so produced than previous ones and i like that so much. Plus we can really hear full details that we can not hear in bootlegs.
My dream would be to have 91-92' tour opening at Dublin (August 23) in soundboard. I listen lot of time the bootleg as this concert is so powerfull and reflecting the live ambiance.
RAINBOW: a pure diamond ! I just regret that the song 'News' is not in the shape of 81-82 tour, ending with 'Private Investigations' outro !
Post by: localhero1986 on November 03, 2023, 11:59:16 AM
Post by: Dutchessy on November 03, 2023, 12:02:43 PM
Aaaaah! The delivery guy stopped at my front door, didn’t step out, drove away! So it will be Monday I get my box set. Now I have to keep using spotify…
That's brutal :(
Post by: Marnix on November 03, 2023, 12:24:25 PM
Aaaaah! The delivery guy stopped at my front door, didn’t step out, drove away! So it will be Monday I get my box set. Now I have to keep using spotify…
No delivery on Saturday?
Post by: Marnix on November 03, 2023, 12:36:26 PM
The extra tracks are really great to here. Great versions of When it comes to you and Fade to Black!!
Because I was in Rotterdam TOL and ITILTM are special to me to hear them after all these years in pristine quality.
If "The Bug", "Solid Rock" and "Local Hero" were put in the right order of the set and were mixed as part of the album it was a perfect souvenir of the OES tour in my opinion and I forgive them that they left out again the into from MFN
Post by: localhero1986 on November 03, 2023, 01:01:55 PM
Aaaaah! The delivery guy stopped at my front door, didn’t step out, drove away! So it will be Monday I get my box set. Now I have to keep using spotify…
No delivery on Saturday?
Well, pick up is possible if you’re in time. Despite the fact that I select the most ideal pick up point, they tend to bring it to the one which immediately closes after receiving it. :clap
Anyway, listening to spotify for now. Figuring out which tracks are my favorite! :lol
Post by: Dutchessy on November 03, 2023, 01:49:24 PM
Aaaaah! The delivery guy stopped at my front door, didn’t step out, drove away! So it will be Monday I get my box set. Now I have to keep using spotify…
No delivery on Saturday?
Well, pick up is possible if you’re in time. Despite the fact that I select the most ideal pick up point, they tend to bring it to the one which immediately closes after receiving it. :clap
Anyway, listening to spotify for now. Figuring out which tracks are my favorite! :lol
Bonaparte isn't on this box ;)
Post by: Chris W on November 03, 2023, 02:06:23 PM
Phil Palmer's second solo on ITILYTM does not contain a 'major error', he plays one note slightly out of scale, which I personally don't mind, then on the following run down there is a slightly scuffed note - which happens when you are improvising.
Some people want musicians to take risks, go for it, other people aren't happy unless every show is note for note perfect.
The drum sound (at least on the same song) is not 'crap'. Personally I think the kick and toms sound fantastic. The snare is too thin and high pitched, which was how it ended up on the tour because the stage volume was so loud I couldn't hear my snare at lower tunings. I regret that I didn't try and stick with a better, lower tuning, which would have fitted the material better. I am sure that Neil Dorfsman added a lower tuned snare sample to my snare when he mixed the original OTN record.
The beginning of MFN is a waste of time unless you were in the audience at the show. Mark teases the guitar riff (as you know) and the audience goes crazy for 5 minutes or so. Absolutely nothing lost by editing the false start from this reissue.
My CD box set (which I bought off Amazon) arrives this afternoon.
Post by: 2manyguitars on November 03, 2023, 02:20:36 PM
You guys..... ???
Phil Palmer's second solo on ITILYTM does not contain a 'major error', he plays one note slightly out of scale, which I personally don't mind, then on the following run down there is a slightly scuffed note - which happens when you are improvising.
Some people want musicians to take risks, go for it, other people aren't happy unless every show is note for note perfect.
The drum sound (at least on the same song) is not 'crap'. Personally I think the kick and toms sound fantastic. The snare is too thin and high pitched, which was how it ended up on the tour because the stage volume was so loud I couldn't hear my snare at lower tunings. I regret that I didn't try and stick with a better, lower tuning, which would have fitted the material better. I am sure that Neil Dorfsman added a lower tuned snare sample to my snare when he mixed the original OTN record.
The beginning of MFN is a waste of time unless you were in the audience at the show. Mark teases the guitar riff (as you know) and the audience goes crazy for 5 minutes or so. Absolutely nothing lost by editing the false start from this reissue.
My CD box set (which I bought off Amazon) arrives this afternoon.
Thanks Chris, I've always wondered about that and think its the source of many peoples often unwarranted criticism of your drumming on OES compared to earlier eras. Its also often 'Not what people are used to' so they take an instant dislike to it.
Lovely to be able to interact with you, thankyou!
Post by: Marnix on November 03, 2023, 02:33:30 PM
You guys..... ???
Phil Palmer's second solo on ITILYTM does not contain a 'major error', he plays one note slightly out of scale, which I personally don't mind, then on the following run down there is a slightly scuffed note - which happens when you are improvising.
Some people want musicians to take risks, go for it, other people aren't happy unless every show is note for note perfect.
The drum sound (at least on the same song) is not 'crap'. Personally I think the kick and toms sound fantastic. The snare is too thin and high pitched, which was how it ended up on the tour because the stage volume was so loud I couldn't hear my snare at lower tunings. I regret that I didn't try and stick with a better, lower tuning, which would have fitted the material better. I am sure that Neil Dorfsman added a lower tuned snare sample to my snare when he mixed the original OTN record.
The beginning of MFN is a waste of time unless you were in the audience at the show. Mark teases the guitar riff (as you know) and the audience goes crazy for 5 minutes or so. Absolutely nothing lost by editing the false start from this reissue.
My CD box set (which I bought off Amazon) arrives this afternoon.
For me personally i found the teasing intro great when I was at the show and gives me a smile on my face when i hear it again. For me it's part of the song how it was played during the OES tour. So i miss it but i can understand that it's not part of the album
Post by: Maxx on November 03, 2023, 02:38:58 PM
What a live band they were by the end of the -79 tour. Portobello Belle and Twisting along the Phil Lynott stuff being favorites. This may be a well known fact to people, but I never fully realized the importance of Pick Withers in terms of a live act. The band certainly did at least the same great job on Live at the BBC, but what's absent there to my ears in comparison is the energy and the endless inspiration what is possible to do with a guitar and a four piece band. They were certainly having great fun that night at the Rainbow.
For Alchemy I certainly do enjoy the additions of Industrial and Twisting a lot. However, it's clear why they were left out back then. ::)
On the Night has always held a special place in my heart being the first live stuff I heard of DS. For some reason I forgive all the overdubbing and overproducing when it comes to ONT. Even a song as Two Young Lovers is great fun to hear. Never been a fan of the song except for the -91/92 versions. I Think I Love You Too Much is worth a lot to me. I prefer this version to the Knebworth one. Regarding Sultans, Tunnel and Telegraph I can't wish for more. Sure there are even better and more energetic versions from earlier of the tour, bit these are an absolute thrill to finally have available. Also to have my childhood favorite live version of Solid Rock finally available on Spotity is fantastic. I mean.. the outro part with MK/Phil.. So slick, isn't it? 8)
Post by: Pottel on November 03, 2023, 02:41:39 PM
You guys..... ???thnx for your feedback Chris
Phil Palmer's second solo on ITILYTM does not contain a 'major error', he plays one note slightly out of scale, which I personally don't mind, then on the following run down there is a slightly scuffed note - which happens when you are improvising.
Some people want musicians to take risks, go for it, other people aren't happy unless every show is note for note perfect.
The drum sound (at least on the same song) is not 'crap'. Personally I think the kick and toms sound fantastic. The snare is too thin and high pitched, which was how it ended up on the tour because the stage volume was so loud I couldn't hear my snare at lower tunings. I regret that I didn't try and stick with a better, lower tuning, which would have fitted the material better. I am sure that Neil Dorfsman added a lower tuned snare sample to my snare when he mixed the original OTN record.
The beginning of MFN is a waste of time unless you were in the audience at the show. Mark teases the guitar riff (as you know) and the audience goes crazy for 5 minutes or so. Absolutely nothing lost by editing the false start from this reissue.
My CD box set (which I bought off Amazon) arrives this afternoon.
always a joy to have you onboard here, despite the often "mixed" comments of our own local super musicians :-)
i guess it is the same as with any national football team, the best national trainer is sitting at home, ...pls do not feel upset about this minority of comments.
what does surprise me a bit is that Damage management, or whatever the name is these days, cannot do a little extra effort and send a box to those guys actually playing on it, something i will never get...
but on the other hand, great to see you are still excited enough about it to order it yourself.
pls do keep visiting us every now and then, it is inside infos from the likes of yourself, or the sadly missed Jack Sonni, who lift up the cloud of mystery a bit for us fans!
we always guess and discuss, and over analyse, and sometimes, or most of the time, the answer is a far more simple one. which is where you come in :-)
Post by: dustyvalentino on November 03, 2023, 02:44:21 PM
You guys..... ???
Phil Palmer's second solo on ITILYTM does not contain a 'major error', he plays one note slightly out of scale, which I personally don't mind, then on the following run down there is a slightly scuffed note - which happens when you are improvising.
Some people want musicians to take risks, go for it, other people aren't happy unless every show is note for note perfect.
The drum sound (at least on the same song) is not 'crap'. Personally I think the kick and toms sound fantastic. The snare is too thin and high pitched, which was how it ended up on the tour because the stage volume was so loud I couldn't hear my snare at lower tunings. I regret that I didn't try and stick with a better, lower tuning, which would have fitted the material better. I am sure that Neil Dorfsman added a lower tuned snare sample to my snare when he mixed the original OTN record.
The beginning of MFN is a waste of time unless you were in the audience at the show. Mark teases the guitar riff (as you know) and the audience goes crazy for 5 minutes or so. Absolutely nothing lost by editing the false start from this reissue.
My CD box set (which I bought off Amazon) arrives this afternoon.
Thanks for the insight, and it’s the internet everyone’s a critic!
I agree that it’s shameful that you have to buy your own copy, poor show!
Post by: localhero1986 on November 03, 2023, 02:55:23 PM
Aaaaah! The delivery guy stopped at my front door, didn’t step out, drove away! So it will be Monday I get my box set. Now I have to keep using spotify…
No delivery on Saturday?
Well, pick up is possible if you’re in time. Despite the fact that I select the most ideal pick up point, they tend to bring it to the one which immediately closes after receiving it. :clap
Anyway, listening to spotify for now. Figuring out which tracks are my favorite! :lol
Bonaparte isn't on this box ;)
:lol :lol :lol Such a shame!
Post by: Chris W on November 03, 2023, 02:58:53 PM
Thanks Chris, I've always wondered about that and think its the source of many peoples often unwarranted criticism of your drumming on OES compared to earlier eras. Its also often 'Not what people are used to' so they take an instant dislike to it.
In a way I was a victim of circumstances and with hindsight I would have done some things differently. The stage had a weird sound, I was high up, away from most of the band. Mark wanted the drums loud (from the first day we went on stage with the PA and monitors), so I ended up slamming the drums for a lot of the show, which is NOT the way Sultans should have been played and also why I ended up cranking my snare too high.
Our a few months I drifted into playing a crappy drum solo at the end of MFN.
Other than that I stand by everything I did on the tour.
Post by: Chris W on November 03, 2023, 03:02:18 PM
A better way is to say you don't like Palmer's guitar solo, or you don't like his playing on the tour, the drum sound is not your cup of tea, or in your opinion the drum sound could have been better, etc.....
Post by: Pottel on November 03, 2023, 03:13:29 PM
Post by: Pottel on November 03, 2023, 03:14:12 PM
Post by: iorch82 on November 03, 2023, 03:27:16 PM
Thanks Chris, I've always wondered about that and think its the source of many peoples often unwarranted criticism of your drumming on OES compared to earlier eras. Its also often 'Not what people are used to' so they take an instant dislike to it.
In a way I was a victim of circumstances and with hindsight I would have done some things differently. The stage had a weird sound, I was high up, away from most of the band. Mark wanted the drums loud (from the first day we went on stage with the PA and monitors), so I ended up slamming the drums for a lot of the show, which is NOT the way Sultans should have been played and also why I ended up cranking my snare too high.
Our a few months I drifted into playing a crappy drum solo at the end of MFN.
Other than that I stand by everything I did on the tour.
You did an awesome job Chris. Many fans have put that tour in a very high place - even in the top 1 in my case - It's crazy how well oiled was that machine back then; and your style fitted perfectly the big dad-rock stadium band that MK wanted Ds to sound like.
Post by: jbaent on November 03, 2023, 04:21:09 PM
I'm totally on board with criticism, especially when it's personal opinion and also when fans have a different perspective to the people on the stage or in the studio. It sometimes goes too far, like calling one tiny fluff from P Palmer a 'major error', or suggesting the entire drum sound is 'crap'.
A better way is to say you don't like Palmer's guitar solo, or you don't like his playing on the tour, the drum sound is not your cup of tea, or in your opinion the drum sound could have been better, etc.....
Today listening to the box I had the impression that you played quite well the songs from the last records, the ones recorded by Jeff Porcaro and Manu Katche, but the classic DS songs, most of them played during different eras by Pick Withers and Terry Williams, seems to be that you felt quite or uncomfortable or less confident than with the rest. Am I right with this impression?
Post by: Rolo on November 03, 2023, 04:26:22 PM
They expects things that only pleases themselves.
And it never happens.
I listened the whole stuff.
The songs that i liked the most was OTN's Tunnel and Telegraph.
I agree with some here that Alchemy's Industrial Desease does not fit the athmosphere from the original Alchemy release.
In my opinion, By The Pool not fit either.
There is another 'Twist Like Song' on Alchemy. So, there is no need to be two of them.
But, in terms of fidelity, the LOG Tour concerts was like that. So, there is.
I didn't like The Rainbow Theather show.
There is a LOT of reverb to my ears.
The guitar tones are too thin.
Seems to my that Mark's guitar is a little out of tune during Six Blade Knife, Sultans and Setting Me Up.
The rest, its all the same.
Great band, great musicians.
Post by: Darling Pretty on November 03, 2023, 04:30:25 PM
Thanks Chris, I've always wondered about that and think its the source of many peoples often unwarranted criticism of your drumming on OES compared to earlier eras. Its also often 'Not what people are used to' so they take an instant dislike to it.
In a way I was a victim of circumstances and with hindsight I would have done some things differently. The stage had a weird sound, I was high up, away from most of the band. Mark wanted the drums loud (from the first day we went on stage with the PA and monitors), so I ended up slamming the drums for a lot of the show, which is NOT the way Sultans should have been played and also why I ended up cranking my snare too high.
Our a few months I drifted into playing a crappy drum solo at the end of MFN.
Other than that I stand by everything I did on the tour.
Hi Chris, welcome back again here in this Forum.
Well I really loved the way you played Sultans on that Tour.
It has a great Snare sound and you really played it incredibly fast. I somehow loved it. Nimes Sep 1992 especially.
Your fast playing really pushed Mark into great and also fast solos. He improvised a lot.
So really no complaints from my side.
OK, maybe Sultans should be played in another way but your different approach is the one I love. Maybe just because of that. The difference
My Dire Straits Box did not show up today because Amazon just sucked here. Have to wait 1 or 2 days. But cannot await to hear the version on that one.
Cheers Chris
Post by: vape68 on November 03, 2023, 04:33:06 PM
I'm totally on board with criticism, especially when it's personal opinion and also when fans have a different perspective to the people on the stage or in the studio. It sometimes goes too far, like calling one tiny fluff from P Palmer a 'major error', or suggesting the entire drum sound is 'crap'.
A better way is to say you don't like Palmer's guitar solo, or you don't like his playing on the tour, the drum sound is not your cup of tea, or in your opinion the drum sound could have been better, etc.....
Your posts confirmed Phil made 2 errors, so major or not they are there and Guy Fletcher lowered the volume because of that. Guy too confirmed these 2 errors were well spotted on the audience recording from Rotterdam 05-30
I wrote the drums sound crap but that's because of the recording which is really far from perfect, not because of you, I have always liked your style. MK's guitar on Tunnel has a 'huge gigantic' delay/reverb, there are several issues of different kind.
Post by: Knut on November 03, 2023, 05:25:38 PM
You guys..... ???
Phil Palmer's second solo on ITILYTM does not contain a 'major error', he plays one note slightly out of scale, which I personally don't mind, then on the following run down there is a slightly scuffed note - which happens when you are improvising.
Some people want musicians to take risks, go for it, other people aren't happy unless every show is note for note perfect.
The drum sound (at least on the same song) is not 'crap'. Personally I think the kick and toms sound fantastic. The snare is too thin and high pitched, which was how it ended up on the tour because the stage volume was so loud I couldn't hear my snare at lower tunings. I regret that I didn't try and stick with a better, lower tuning, which would have fitted the material better. I am sure that Neil Dorfsman added a lower tuned snare sample to my snare when he mixed the original OTN record.
The beginning of MFN is a waste of time unless you were in the audience at the show. Mark teases the guitar riff (as you know) and the audience goes crazy for 5 minutes or so. Absolutely nothing lost by editing the false start from this reissue.
My CD box set (which I bought off Amazon) arrives this afternoon.
Exactly. The thing is, that there sometimes is a double standard. I doubt many of those who call this a (major) mistake would call out Mark on the same thing. Maybe I'm weird, but I can enjoy a live performance with it's flaws and focus on the good bits and pieces. Like, I enjoy the BIA version from Berlin in 2007 - but there's a mistake during the solo there that's much more obvious than what people complain about here. Still, it's got that little bit of "something" that makes me listen to it every now and then.
The MFN intro had some twiddly bits at the very beginning that would've been nice to have, but not sure how you'd put it together in a package that makes sense for an audio release. I agree that the "strike" is more of a completist thing than something that adds musical value to the release.
Post by: milicz on November 03, 2023, 05:35:42 PM
You guys..... ???
Phil Palmer's second solo on ITILYTM does not contain a 'major error', he plays one note slightly out of scale, which I personally don't mind, then on the following run down there is a slightly scuffed note - which happens when you are improvising.
Some people want musicians to take risks, go for it, other people aren't happy unless every show is note for note perfect.
The drum sound (at least on the same song) is not 'crap'. Personally I think the kick and toms sound fantastic. The snare is too thin and high pitched, which was how it ended up on the tour because the stage volume was so loud I couldn't hear my snare at lower tunings. I regret that I didn't try and stick with a better, lower tuning, which would have fitted the material better. I am sure that Neil Dorfsman added a lower tuned snare sample to my snare when he mixed the original OTN record.
The beginning of MFN is a waste of time unless you were in the audience at the show. Mark teases the guitar riff (as you know) and the audience goes crazy for 5 minutes or so. Absolutely nothing lost by editing the false start from this reissue.
My CD box set (which I bought off Amazon) arrives this afternoon.
You are a brave man to venture onto a fan board! I hope you illuminated some of the issues, I think it would be great if more people worked or saw behind the scenes of a concert so they could understand what issues arise. That said, the criticisms are silly, but that's what you get on a fan board when a new album hasn't come out in 30 years! Gotta talk about something.
Post by: Chris W on November 03, 2023, 05:40:52 PM
Today listening to the box I had the impression that you played quite well the songs from the last records, the ones recorded by Jeff Porcaro and Manu Katche, but the classic DS songs, most of them played during different eras by Pick Withers and Terry Williams, seems to be that you felt quite or uncomfortable or less confident than with the rest. Am I right with this impression?
No, that's not right. I am very proud of my playing on things like Tunnel Of Love and Romeo for example.
My style at the time (on recording sessions and with other bands) was influenced by Omar Hakim and Porcaro. I didn't 'get' Pick probably and I wasn't a fan of Terry. I perceive Mark and John hired me because on the past two studio albums they had used Hakim and Porcaro, which was a more stripped back, US rock style, which is what I also liked at the time.
What people ALWAYS forget is that Mark was the boss and I rarely played anything he hadn't directed me to play. If he had asked me to play more like Pick I would have 100% done it.
Post by: Chris W on November 03, 2023, 05:46:47 PM
Your posts confirmed Phil made 2 errors, so major or not they are there and Guy Fletcher lowered the volume because of that.
The drum recording was the same for all the shows (Nimes, Rotterdam and Paris?).
I wouldn't call the guitar bits 'errors'.
The thing is, in a live situation you go for it, otherwise the audience might as well stay at home and listen to the CD. Everyone, including Mark, especially Mark, played off notes and miscues on any given night. That's how the show develops and improves from the first gig to 6 months later. You suddenly think of a new bit mid song, you play it and it sounds rushed, scruffy, you play it the next night and it is tight, sounding good. Then it becomes part of the song.
Post by: Robson on November 03, 2023, 05:49:36 PM
I have my box!!!
Post by: herlock on November 03, 2023, 05:52:55 PM
I agree that News reached another level on the 80-81 ( not 81-82 😂) tour, it became epic! I'm glad we have the video of Dormund 80, I wished we had a good multitrack recording of Wiesbaden or Paris '81!
RAINBOW: a pure diamond ! I just regret that the song 'News' is not in the shape of 81-82 tour, ending with 'Private Investigations' outro !
Post by: Chris W on November 03, 2023, 05:57:58 PM
Chris, do you remember the concert in Basel?
Vividly. Also because it has been on Youtube for years. I remember being completely relaxed about playing a demanding 2+ hour show for live TV.
I think we had some ups and downs at the beginning of the tour, then especially North America (Jan/Feb/March 92) and by the time we hit Europe again we were battle hardened and slick.
Post by: Robson on November 03, 2023, 06:03:27 PM
Chris, do you remember the concert in Basel?
Vividly. Also because it has been on Youtube for years. I remember being completely relaxed about playing a demanding 2+ hour show for live TV.
I think we had some ups and downs at the beginning of the tour, then especially North America (Jan/Feb/March 92) and by the time we hit Europe again we were battle hardened and slick.
Thank you for your answer :) It's a fantastic concert. I have great sentiment for this concert:)
Post by: ds1984 on November 03, 2023, 06:11:14 PM
Post by: Chris W on November 03, 2023, 06:24:30 PM
but the classic DS songs, most of them played during different eras by Pick Withers and Terry Williams, seems to be that you felt quite or uncomfortable or less confident than with the rest. Am I right with this impression?
The other thing people forget that just prior to the On Every Street tour I had worked with Paul McCartney for three years, including a highly acclaimed world tour. His music spanned a far longer period than Dire Straits. We played 50's Rock n Roll in the show, a bunch of Beatles songs and the post Beatles repertoire from early 70's Wings to his latest album (1989). Many of The Beatles songs had never been played live before, and I really wanted to be true to Ringo if I could. Paul, by the way, gave me free reign to do as I wish.
So I would never be unsure or unconfident playing a major show.
We rehearsed with Mark for 3 months? Everything we played was worked out in detail, with Mark, Guy and Allan all acting as musical directors.
As I've said before, when we set up on the stage the first time, Mark said he couldn't feel the energy from my drums, so he had me play louder and louder and when I was pretty much at max volume he asked me to play at that intensity from then on.
Slamming the drums didn't really lend itself to the more sensitive Pick performances. Terry was a louder rock drummer, but in a later interview John said I was the loudest drummer they had ever played with - which was not MY choice.
Post by: iorch82 on November 03, 2023, 07:00:51 PM
Chris, do you remember the concert in Basel?
Vividly. Also because it has been on Youtube for years. I remember being completely relaxed about playing a demanding 2+ hour show for live TV.
I think we had some ups and downs at the beginning of the tour, then especially North America (Jan/Feb/March 92) and by the time we hit Europe again we were battle hardened and slick.
I am very curious, what were the hardest songs to play from the repertorie? Like being somehow unconfident about failing playing it.
Post by: jf9081 on November 03, 2023, 07:08:38 PM
Isn't it beautiful? Chris Whitten - DS drummer talks with fans :) Chris, do you remember the concert in Basel? Very important for many fans because it was broadcast to many countries.
I have my box!!!
Thanks Chris for everything you tell us, a great pleasure!!
Post by: olazabalrok on November 03, 2023, 07:09:06 PM
Post by: jbaent on November 03, 2023, 07:42:57 PM
but the classic DS songs, most of them played during different eras by Pick Withers and Terry Williams, seems to be that you felt quite or uncomfortable or less confident than with the rest. Am I right with this impression?
The other thing people forget that just prior to the On Every Street tour I had worked with Paul McCartney for three years, including a highly acclaimed world tour. His music spanned a far longer period than Dire Straits. We played 50's Rock n Roll in the show, a bunch of Beatles songs and the post Beatles repertoire from early 70's Wings to his latest album (1989). Many of The Beatles songs had never been played live before, and I really wanted to be true to Ringo if I could. Paul, by the way, gave me free reign to do as I wish.
So I would never be unsure or unconfident playing a major show.
We rehearsed with Mark for 3 months? Everything we played was worked out in detail, with Mark, Guy and Allan all acting as musical directors.
As I've said before, when we set up on the stage the first time, Mark said he couldn't feel the energy from my drums, so he had me play louder and louder and when I was pretty much at max volume he asked me to play at that intensity from then on.
Slamming the drums didn't really lend itself to the more sensitive Pick performances. Terry was a louder rock drummer, but in a later interview John said I was the loudest drummer they had ever played with - which was not MY choice.
Actually I love the Tripping Live Fantastic cd. It's absolutely great.
So I'm under the impression that you were very proffesional but you weren't playing like you like to play or the way you like to play. Isn't it?
Thanks for coming back!
Post by: Beryl on November 03, 2023, 11:04:01 PM
Post by: Chris W on November 04, 2023, 10:08:19 AM
So I'm under the impression that you were very proffesional but you weren't playing like you like to play or the way you like to play. Isn't it?
I am curious why this has to keep coming up.
I am proud of my performances with Dire Straits. To be honest - and I said this to John at the time - it was a LOT more pressure playing Beatles songs that had never been played live before, in front of an LA crowd containing Stevie Wonder and Michael Jackson. We actually played bigger shows with Paul than Dire Straits - two night at NY Giants Stadium, the Maracana in Rio (100,000 plus each night).
The only thing hampering me with DS was that the music was more scripted. I was expected to play that tom at that exact moment etc... And the fact Mark decided just before the first show that I should play harder than I expected to play.
I adjusted and I've only ever seen a minority of fans ever think the drumming was somehow lacking. It was different. I don't play like Pick and I don't play like Terry. Terry was long gone (like years) before I was even approached. I was never asked to play like Terry or Pick. In fact I think I was hired because my style was more like the drummers they had invited to play on BIA and OES.
Post by: Darling Pretty on November 04, 2023, 10:34:16 AM
Thanks for showing up here and giving us some insight.
Very appreciated
Post by: Chris W on November 04, 2023, 10:42:32 AM
Last thing....
It's unfortunate when a band's style changes so much. I guess evolution has to occur or the artist/band becomes stale.
I can't imagine Pick playing on Money For Nothing.
My 'audition' for Mark and John took place at Air Studios while they were mixing OES. They had me re-record songs like 'Calling Elvis' and 'Heavy Fuel'.
As they had already asked Jeff P and Manu K to join them on tour, I perceived they were looking for a drummer in that style to translate the songs from OES to the live stage. BIA as an album and tour was a global phenomenon, so in my mind they actually wanted the drums to be in the same vein as Hakim, Katche and Porcaro. They had parted company with Terry, also not using him on the BIA album, so to me it was not imperative to try and emulate his playing style.
Post by: quizzaciously on November 04, 2023, 10:53:06 AM
Post by: Chris W on November 04, 2023, 11:08:26 AM
A lot of times you have a boss and feel like an employee. I was just trying to give Mark what he needed to perform well.
It was an odd situation because I was dropped into an established set up. The core of the band had played through the entire BIA tour. In the rehearsals most people (except me, Paul F and Danny C) knew the intricacies of the songs - even Phil Palmer had played rhythm with Mark at several charity events before.
Post by: Darling Pretty on November 04, 2023, 11:14:28 AM
how do comment on Mark's further Drummer's Choice in his solo career. If I may ask you that as a Drum Master?
After you there were Chad Cromwell, Danny Cummings and now Ian Thomas.
Can you give us some of your ideas how well they fitted in his music? What you think about them ?
Post by: Chris W on November 04, 2023, 12:13:01 PM
Post by: shortfin on November 04, 2023, 12:54:18 PM
Thank you so much Chris, now we love you for that too and not just for the music you gave us!
Post by: localhero1986 on November 04, 2023, 01:05:55 PM
Oh my God! I open the Forum to read comments on the boxset that I have not bought or listened to yet and I find two pages of insights from Chris Whitten!
Thank you so much Chris, now we love you for that too and not just for the music you gave us!
Indeed! Great to read Chris’ comments, fantastic!
Post by: Chris W on November 04, 2023, 01:38:02 PM
Post by: naif on November 04, 2023, 01:56:00 PM
Post by: vape68 on November 04, 2023, 01:58:13 PM
I listened to CD 2 of the On The Night era. The drums are quite low in the mix. It's not that they aren't powerful or punchy, just that they are mixed lower I think. Most of the time I'm hearing snare and toms, not much bass drum or hi-hat. Except MFN which seems to have a different mix.
I told you drums don't sound right, it's a terrible OTN production/mix imo, everything is messy, not only drums,
also completely incoherent with the sound of the original release
When you have new songs out it's still enjoyable, but the production is an arrow in the heart frankly
Post by: vape68 on November 04, 2023, 02:03:01 PM
Hi Chris, it's wonderful to have you here, we're not taking it for granted. Man, I cringe every time you mention Mark pushing you to play as hard as possible on the On Every Street tour, I think it's unacceptable. Especially since Mark himself got in trouble for playing too hard on the guitar with some wrist pain and whatnot.
that was in 2001, not during the OES tour
Post by: Terry82 on November 04, 2023, 02:05:47 PM
I listened to CD 2 of the On The Night era. The drums are quite low in the mix. It's not that they aren't powerful or punchy, just that they are mixed lower I think. Most of the time I'm hearing snare and toms, not much bass drum or hi-hat. Except MFN which seems to have a different mix.Hello Chris, its really a great pleasure and a dream come true can talk with you. First of all, sorry for my bad english. Im from Argentina, and im a drummer. I listen DS since im a small kid. I started play drums listening to you in the OES Tour videos.
I can ask you about the gear you used wuth Dire Straits? What drum brand, cymbals (in the videos i can see Zildjian), hardware and drum heads. And why you choosed that different brands and models
And too what mics model to amplify the drum for each venue. What type of monitors you used? In any video (basel i think) i seen that you have in ears auriculars too, i love if you can explain in detail the way you used the monitors and how you do to can hear all the band properly. Sorry for my bad english and its a dream come true can chat with you. A lot of love for you from Argentina!
Post by: Chris W on November 04, 2023, 02:24:27 PM
All the other gear was not my choice or responsibility, so I can't remember as it was 35 years ago.
Post by: vape68 on November 04, 2023, 02:36:14 PM
Mark wanted the drums loud (from the first day we went on stage with the PA and monitors), so I ended up slamming the drums for a lot of the show, which is NOT the way Sultans should have been played
NOT the way Sultans should have been played ?
Did you tell Mark during the tour or is it just a thought 30 years later ?
Post by: jbaent on November 04, 2023, 02:39:31 PM
So I'm under the impression that you were very proffesional but you weren't playing like you like to play or the way you like to play. Isn't it?
I am curious why this has to keep coming up.
I am proud of my performances with Dire Straits. To be honest - and I said this to John at the time - it was a LOT more pressure playing Beatles songs that had never been played live before, in front of an LA crowd containing Stevie Wonder and Michael Jackson. We actually played bigger shows with Paul than Dire Straits - two night at NY Giants Stadium, the Maracana in Rio (100,000 plus each night).
The only thing hampering me with DS was that the music was more scripted. I was expected to play that tom at that exact moment etc... And the fact Mark decided just before the first show that I should play harder than I expected to play.
I adjusted and I've only ever seen a minority of fans ever think the drumming was somehow lacking. It was different. I don't play like Pick and I don't play like Terry. Terry was long gone (like years) before I was even approached. I was never asked to play like Terry or Pick. In fact I think I was hired because my style was more like the drummers they had invited to play on BIA and OES.
I don't mean you weren't proud of your playing, but that maybe if the situation would had been different in all things you mentioned you would had rather played in other style or other way. I bet your pardon if any of what I say sounds irrespective, English is not my native language and I struggle to find the exact words with the exact meaning that reflects what I really mean to say.
Thanks for all your answers. I should repeat I love the Tripping the live fantastic record and inplay it a lot!
Post by: jbaent on November 04, 2023, 02:43:56 PM
I haven't followed the timeline, other than the very occasional Youtube video.
I think you would enjoy more playing with MK nowadays, since he broke the band he's more relaxed not only as a person but also as a musician, still very demanding but more relaxed in comparison, and it's not me saying that but himself in many interviews.
Post by: benducret on November 04, 2023, 02:45:00 PM
I'm just an old french fan who grew up with Dire straits, and have long since moved to very very different genres of music.
Let's just say that I love DS' music because that's where I started, I love MK, they are like "madeleines de Proust" for me. They can bring tears to my eyes even though the man I am now doesn't understand or cares for mark's artistic choices since BIA.
I have read your comments and decided to buy a hi-res digital version of the live box set.
I expected a huge disappointement but I happen to love it for what it is.
No surprise, I'm in love with the Rainbow concert. Because I love the early straits, but mostly because of their ENERGY that night (but also on their records in those years).
Energy doesn't mean playing fast or loud, in my opinion. But it has to do with keeping a minimum of tension in the music. Even slow numbers are tense in that concert.
MK is totally in it, just listen to the way he sings. Tension needs building, resolution, it needs life. I wanted a good recording of that concert ever since I saw the bbc arena doc on the alchemy bluray. I'm more than happy !
It is my opinion that dire straits let much of their life and energy slide away after the LOG tour. The question would be : why ?
What I find very interesting in Chris Witten's posts (thank you so very much for that !) is his use of the word "scripted". Scripted music.
Chris witten's words (playing that tom at that very moment) remind me of Pick Withers' words about the On location tour in a yt interview : when he did something cool, he was told to do the very same trick at the very same moment each night and he clearly didn't like it. It couldn't have the same energy and sincerity once it was "scripted".
Mark's quest for total control certainly is the main motive in DS history and in his own music since then, and even in most of his collaborations with others. His search for freedom has, in my opinion, led to a more and more contrived style of music. A paradox to be sure. Or is it ?
OTN illustrates just that. I like Chris witten's work on that tour. In fact I like everybody's work. More or less : Phil palmer's style I don't like, Guy fletcher sounds and influence even less, and Chris White's piano bar saxophone invading every classic DS song I just can't stand. But that was Mark's vision !! So that's what I have a problem with. Mark's vision for dire straits from 1984 onward is not my cup of tea.
Still, I do enjoy OTN more than I expected.
Calling Elvis live is much better than the studio version, chris playing Jeff Porcaro's parts is great. He and Danny sound and look very much alive, I like it.
The OES songs are much better played live to my ears.
That said, that scripted show for nine performers cannot convey much energy. It has nothing to do with each musician's part, it has to do with the whole thing. And with MK too. He is not too "energic" himself and looked bored on that tour. Paul mc Cartney has much more energy than MK !
Mk has complained a lot with things getting too big. But they do not necessarily have to be that big on stage. A stage setup which, according to chris witten himself, had an impact on the way he heard things and the way he had to play. Was music the priority then ? One can wonder.
Many big bands make big tours without turning into that kind of programmed monsters. Tours are always demanding and tiring, but they can still keep the music alive. Sometimes very much alive.
All in all, that version of OTN is much better setlist-wise than the original. I didn't understand the choices made on the original cd and found it very lacking.
We now have a complete show, that's always a good thing.
So I'm happy with it.
Alchemy, I'm happy to have industrial disease, no matter how strange the sound is. And portebello too, although I'm not fond of Mel's jamming on it.
I agree with many of you that twisting by the pool is one "twisting song" too far on alchemy. All in all, I'll keep listening to the older version of that album.
Live at the BBC brings nothing new and many bootlegs from that period are much more interesting and satisfying. I do like it but never listen to it.
In the end, the live at the Rainbow and the now complete OTN show are the positive points of that box, the reasons to buy, so to speak. In my personal opinion.
I wonder why they have not produced deluxe editions of the original Live albums (and studio !!) plus a Live at the Rainbow, instead of packing it all in a box where you have to buy everything at once. Strange strategy, once more. Or just the rainbowor whatever.
As for the sound of the whole thing, it certainly could have been better. Mark's and Guy Fletcher's choices in terms of production, I don't understand, or don't appreciate. With all due respect, I never understood mk's now life long association with GF. Is Guy the ultimate "yes man" ?
Not my cup of tea.
But that doesn't stop me from enjoying the good things we get with this box.
Post by: Knopflerfan on November 04, 2023, 04:27:38 PM
Rainbow concert next... £45 well spent today!!
Post by: jbaent on November 04, 2023, 05:12:51 PM
Alchemy is a disappointment. Yes, it has the three songs missing but having Portobello cut makes it less special and it looses what would had made it special, being a complete version of a record that back in the day not only had three songs missing but some had terrible fade ins and outs.
OTN is special by his extras. It's by far my less favourite DS record, the extras have some of my preferred songs when listening bootlegs, that are "when it comes to you" and "I think I love you too much". The rest, well, is good, as it was played by great musicians but it was too much for me, like, let's say, overproduced, not only the record but the show itself. I don't get how is that what MK wanted but that MK was going through a lot of things.
The rest, I didn't listen to it. Encores doesn't offer anything special regarding the first release and Live at the BBC, I thought either would have anything interesting, but according to our friend Bruno Nunes, some songs are slightly longer and there is a radio DJ intro after Lions that wasn't there before, so, even being so very little there is a difference.
In total, this release is something special and I hope it's not the last!
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 04, 2023, 08:36:50 PM
My favourite bit is the Rainbow concert. It's so amazing that if they would had released that officially back in 1980 it would had been a great seller and a favourite for all fans.
Alchemy is a disappointment. Yes, it has the three songs missing but having Portobello cut makes it less special and it looses what would had made it special, being a complete version of a record that back in the day not only had three songs missing but some had terrible fade ins and outs.
OTN is special by his extras. It's by far my less favourite DS record, the extras have some of my preferred songs when listening bootlegs, that are "when it comes to you" and "I think I love you too much". The rest, well, is good, as it was played by great musicians but it was too much for me, like, let's say, overproduced, not only the record but the show itself. I don't get how is that what MK wanted but that MK was going through a lot of things.
The rest, I didn't listen to it. Encores doesn't offer anything special regarding the first release and Live at the BBC, I thought either would have anything interesting, but according to our friend Bruno Nunes, some songs are slightly longer and there is a radio DJ intro after Lions that wasn't there before, so, even being so very little there is a difference.
In total, this release is something special and I hope it's not the last!
Exactly, this is something totally new, exclusive to this edition. Listening carefully to Live at the BBC, I noticed something quite unusual when an announcer was introducing the band right after they played Lions, the curious thing is that when he introduced David Knopfler, he said: "On guitar and KEYBOARDS"... , this is interesting, because during this period they presented the song Portobello Belle live for the first time and we have it on Bootleg 04.07.78- Barbarella's, Birmingham, UK, and Mark mentions when they are going to play PB that David would play keyboard on it, this it was a few days before this show at the Paris Theatre, which is Live at the BBC. The way the announcer introduces the band, it's as if David was with a keyboard at this show too, certainly they played Portobello Belle in the same way as on 04.07.78, Barbarella's, Birmingham, certainly others from the time like Real Girl or Me and My Friend. It would be incredible to have this complete record too, at least this edition of Live at the BBC brought this precious addendum.
Post by: Justme on November 04, 2023, 08:37:35 PM
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 04, 2023, 08:45:18 PM
What I'm quoting is at the end of Lions, the radio announcer even mentions after introducing the band, that they are going to play the last number, the next single, Whats the Matter Baby. This was not present on the recording released in 1995.
Guy's never quite sure what he's doing, it's unfortunate. He certainly had access to the master of this Live At the BBC recording.
Skip to 5:23 of Lions on Live on BBC
There are almost 1 extra minutes.
Down to the Waterline also gained a few extra seconds in the intro, there is no fade in like in the previous version.
Post by: peterromer on November 04, 2023, 08:57:51 PM
No, I could have - should have. I was kind of in shock.
A lot of times you have a boss and feel like an employee. I was just trying to give Mark what he needed to perform well.
It was an odd situation because I was dropped into an established set up. The core of the band had played through the entire BIA tour. In the rehearsals most people (except me, Paul F and Danny C) knew the intricacies of the songs - even Phil Palmer had played rhythm with Mark at several charity events before.
Thanks Chris for Your contribution both here and with DS.
Its much appreciated.
Regarding The New live set I went straight for the On Every Street songs that was previosly unreleased.
Wow.... Tunnel of love, I think I love You Too Much.... And When IT Comes.... Are so brillant. Serious x factor right there.
Personally I loves Your drumming performances
Will never forget DS in 1992 at Gentofte Stadium in Copenhagen, Denmark.
It was radio broadcastet so we always had a great live bootleg from there.
Thanks Chris ;)
Post by: herlock on November 04, 2023, 08:57:57 PM
For Lions, I think nothing beats the aggressive end solo of BBC.
For News, I prefer the middle solo on Rockpalast, tighter than the Rainbow.
I also love the rawer Six Blade Knife from BBC more than any other version.Same for what's the matter baby.
For In the gallery, Rockpalast sounds more energetic than the Rainbow to me.
But for Down to the Waterline and Sultans, the Rainbow definitely is the best - more energy!
And of course the songs that are unique to the Rainbow (Setting me up, Portobello Belle, Southbound again, Twisting by the pool) are great!
What do you guys think?
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 04, 2023, 09:04:35 PM
It's a shame to sacrifice Single Handed Sailor, this one had to be mandatory in my opinion. Still missing was the interesting Angel of Mercy, which at this point formed a bridge with Solid Rock, the mesmerizing Follow me Home and Water of Love, which were certainly left out because of the songs played with Phil Lynnot. I woud exchange Phil's songs for the missing DS songs, but it is indeed an important, apotheotic show, mainly because to be last show of the original lineup and because it contains the latest versions of Lady Writer, Southbound Again, Whats the Matter Baby, and songs like all the others, DTTE, Six Blade Knife, OUATITW, Lions, News... they never sounded like the original lineup.
I believe that a very important door has been opened with this release, it will certainly sell more than MK's other solo box sets and this could move things in the direction of releasing more material like this, there must certainly be more recordings, not in my dreams anymore Crazy, I imagined an official launch of Rainbow Theater 79, I watched the BBC Arena several times, and I was imagining the entire show, especially on video, but having it in audio is very precious, who knows, maybe there are videos , these things can happen.
Post by: Dutchessy on November 04, 2023, 09:10:36 PM
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 04, 2023, 09:15:19 PM
I may be in the minority here, but for some songs I actually prefer the rawer Live at the BBC and the simpler Rockpalast to the Rainbow show.
For Lions, I think nothing beats the aggressive end solo of BBC.
For News, I prefer the middle solo on Rockpalast, tighter than the Rainbow.
I also love the rawer Six Blade Knife from BBC more than any other version.Same for what's the matter baby.
For In the gallery, Rockpalast sounds more energetic than the Rainbow to me.
But for Down to the Waterline and Sultans, the Rainbow definitely is the best - more energy!
And of course the songs that are unique to the Rainbow (Setting me up, Portobello Belle, Southbound again, Twisting by the pool) are great!
What do you guys think?
Each concert, a flavor, an emotion, an experience, I like all of these, Rainbow Theater 79 is something really new, even the order of the songs are organized in an unusual way by the standards of the time, without a doubt, it was a special show.
Did you notice that In The Gallery at Rainbow Theater 79 has a configuration along the lines of how they approached it in 1980, just listen to In The Gallery on the 1980 bootlegs, and this is not the only song in this show that has this characteristic, the same thing happens with Down to the Waterline, the speed, energy, licks are very close to how they played in 1980, listen to the version in Dortmund 80 it is possible to notice this parallel, this is also the case with Sultans of Swing in Rainbow Theater 79, the arrangement and interpretation is similar to what they did 1 year later in Dortmund 80.
Nothing compares to the warmth and creamy, bittersweet texture of the sound of the Fender Stratocaster and Musicman amps, at least for me.
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 04, 2023, 09:18:51 PM
Sixblade knife of the rainbow is slower and almost 2 minutes longer than the bbc version. (I see now its because of the talking haha)
Many songs during this period of the band were much more open to Jam, such as Six Blade Knife, In The Gallery, Wild West End have a longer introduction, as does Down to the Waterline.
Post by: Dutchessy on November 04, 2023, 09:23:56 PM
Post by: Robson on November 04, 2023, 09:37:47 PM
Post by: herlock on November 04, 2023, 09:40:02 PM
This is definitely the case for News (an epic and emotional dimension was added with the Hammond organ) and WDYTYRG in 1981 (the added crying guitar solo is gorgeous).
For Lions, the change of rythm is contreversal. I like it a lot in both versions. For the end solo, the earlier versions are definitely better, it is going to nowhere in 80/81...
For DTTW, this is a draw. OL tour versions are more suitable to big arenas with the keyboard, and in 81 (not 80) the piano in the end is a nice touch, but I feel that when David left the groove he had on rythm guitar was not well replaced by Hal, at least on this song...
Angel of Mercy is drastically different in the OL tour, but so good!
For In the gallery and Single Handed Sailor, the changes are so drastic that I tend to prefer the original versions...
For Sultans, OUATITW, Portobello Belle, Solid Rock... OL versions didn't age well, the keyboards are so crude, better listen to earlier or latter versions IMHO.
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 04, 2023, 09:55:58 PM
Still on the BBC ARENA video, there is a short scene in the song Les Boys where it shows David playing the entire time with a Sunburst Telecaster, (his main guitar during this period, he uses in all songs in the band's video live at the Rainbow Theatre, present at the BBC Arena), but there is a short scene in the same song which shows David using his black Thiline model Telecaster that he used for Wild West End and Portobello Belle, this was an editing error, but which reveals that more songs were filmed at the Rainbow Theater 79, in addition to those present at the BBC Arena. Who knows, maybe they'll dig deeper and find more interesting recordings, it's possible that complete footage of the show exists, that would be unbelievable, seeing Setting me Up, Southbound Again, or Portobello Belle live, it would be chilling...
Post by: herlock on November 04, 2023, 09:59:05 PM
This is for those who have watched the BBC ARENA documentary many, many times, that long speech by Mark before starting Down to the Waterline present in the video, where he says they will play new things tonight... listening to the audio from the Rainbow Theater 79 available now, we can see where this line comes from, in fact it is quoted at the moment the song Six Blade Knife ends, just before starting Once Upon a Time in the West, and not in Down to the Waterline, but whoever edited it The video made this montage to look like this for the TV show.Yes, it would be chilling indeed!
Still on the BBC ARENA video, there is a short scene in the song Les Boys where it shows David playing the entire time with a Sunburst Telecaster, (his main guitar during this period, he uses in all songs in the band's video live at the Rainbow Theatre, present at the BBC Arena), but there is a short scene in the same song which shows David using his black Thiline model Telecaster that he used for Wild West End and Portobello Belle, this was an editing error, but which reveals that more songs were filmed at the Rainbow Theater 79, in addition to those present at the BBC Arena. Who knows, maybe they'll dig deeper and find more interesting recordings, it's possible that complete footage of the show exists, that would be unbelievable, seeing Setting me Up, Southbound Again, or Portobello Belle live, it would be chilling...
Regarding Mark's speech, I could not reconcile it fully. On the video Mark says "You just call them [the songs]. We'll try and play them". This is not on the Rainbow release, so where does this line come from? Besides, it so unlike Mark to welcome songs requests by the audience...
Post by: herlock on November 04, 2023, 10:00:14 PM
Also i have never liked the guitar sound from live at the bbcYou mean the bass sound? Too high in the mix... As if John had been doing the mix... :)
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 04, 2023, 10:17:34 PM
This is for those who have watched the BBC ARENA documentary many, many times, that long speech by Mark before starting Down to the Waterline present in the video, where he says they will play new things tonight... listening to the audio from the Rainbow Theater 79 available now, we can see where this line comes from, in fact it is quoted at the moment the song Six Blade Knife ends, just before starting Once Upon a Time in the West, and not in Down to the Waterline, but whoever edited it The video made this montage to look like this for the TV show.Yes, it would be chilling indeed!
Still on the BBC ARENA video, there is a short scene in the song Les Boys where it shows David playing the entire time with a Sunburst Telecaster, (his main guitar during this period, he uses in all songs in the band's video live at the Rainbow Theatre, present at the BBC Arena), but there is a short scene in the same song which shows David using his black Thiline model Telecaster that he used for Wild West End and Portobello Belle, this was an editing error, but which reveals that more songs were filmed at the Rainbow Theater 79, in addition to those present at the BBC Arena. Who knows, maybe they'll dig deeper and find more interesting recordings, it's possible that complete footage of the show exists, that would be unbelievable, seeing Setting me Up, Southbound Again, or Portobello Belle live, it would be chilling...
Regarding Mark's speech, I could not reconcile it fully. On the video Mark says "You just call them [the songs]. We'll try and play them". This is not on the Rainbow release, so where does this line come from? Besides, it so unlike Mark to welcome songs requests by the audience...
The speech between 5:22 and 5:36 in the audio of Six Blade Knife at Rainbow Theater 79, they used this speech and put it in the introduction to Down to the Waterline in the video for the BBC Arena program. The part where he quotes in the video "You just call them [the songs]. We'll try and play them" is strangely nowhere in the box.
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 04, 2023, 10:50:12 PM
R&J old release with 8:15 min, in the box 8:11, in TOL we already know what happens, in TR old release with 13:37 min, in the box 12:55 min, a big time disparity here, SL old release has 6:01 min, in the box 5:34 min, another considerable disparity, GH old release 6:05 min, in the box 5:05 min, (minus 1 min.)
Weird stuff... :think
Post by: Robson on November 04, 2023, 11:00:40 PM
Post by: herlock on November 04, 2023, 11:01:30 PM
Trying to understand what happened that the tempo of some songs is different in this Box, I'm referring to Alchem, for example, Once Upon a Time in the West in the old version present on Deezer it contains 13:00 min, in the box it is 12:47 , where did those 13 seconds go? Does the remastering process cause this? Did you make some cuts in bars of the song...?The Alchemy original album contains a lot of clapping (e.g. on both sides of TR), SR clapping was also shortened in the end in 2023 to make an artifical transition to TR, at the expense of a "Thank you!", strange) and also some weird transitions: in OUATITW you can hear a bit of the the begenning of ID (this explains your 13 seconds), In EL you can hear quite a fair bit of the end of ID, and in TOL you can hear quite a bit of the end of PB. As ID and PB were not released, this was kind of strange. The new releases makes things more logical, with 2 small and 1 big screw-up:
R&J old release with 8:15 min, in the box 8:11, in TOL we already know what happens, in TR old release with 13:37 min, in the box 12:55 min, a big time disparity here, SL old release has 6:01 min, in the box 5:34 min, another considerable disparity, GH old release 6:05 min, in the box 5:05 min, (minus 1 min.)
Weird stuff... :think
- R&J has a "thank you" at the beginning that is nowhere to be found.
-TOL is missing a few seconds of intro, before Mel's sax is kicking.
-And most importantly, GH is missing the whole intro (The rock and the thunder), this is a whole minute less and this is unforgivable. As if the vynil (rather than CD) master was used by Guy!
Also, this is lost opportunity to reuse the excellent 2010 mix from Chunk Ainlay, and to restore Mark's speeches in TOL intro and in GH. Shame!
Post by: dmg on November 04, 2023, 11:01:35 PM
Also i have never liked the guitar sound from live at the bbc
A real bug bear of mine too. Very unfortunate as it means I really don't listen to it due to this.
________________
Now my thoughts on the box set. Something that hasn't been covered so far is the improvement to Mark's vocals in the OTN part of the box. It now doesn't have that horrible over-processed sound and is more natural and organic. TYL wasn't something I was particularly looking forward to but after hearing it it is a nice surprise. OES has a good improvement. ITILYTM, WICTY and FTB are great to have in soundboard at long last. TOL and TR were never my favourite versions on this tour I'm afraid. I had just longed for something from the BIA tour, but overall very happy.
Post by: herlock on November 04, 2023, 11:12:27 PM
When you say OES, you mean the tour, not the song? I dont' think Guy touched the original OTN songs?Also i have never liked the guitar sound from live at the bbc
A real bug bear of mine too. Very unfortunate as it means I really don't listen to it due to this.
________________
Now my thoughts on the box set. Something that hasn't been covered so far is the improvement to Mark's vocals in the OTN part of the box. It now doesn't have that horrible over-processed sound and is more natural and organic. TYL wasn't something I was particularly looking forward to but after hearing it it is a nice surprise. OES has a good improvement. ITILYTM, WICTY and FTB are great to have in soundboard at long last. TOL and TR were never my favourite versions on this tour I'm afraid. I had just longed for something from the BIA tour, but overall very happy.
Post by: Rolo on November 05, 2023, 12:36:19 AM
Also i have never liked the guitar sound from live at the bbc
BBC has a HUGE tone. I love it.
A bit more saturated than the usual, but its ALIVE.
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 05, 2023, 12:44:50 AM
This sound is precious and lasted for a short period of time, between May and August 78, as Rolo knows, during that period the band still didn't use Musicmans, here they were Fender and Marshalls cabinets, this influenced the more saturated tone..Also i have never liked the guitar sound from live at the bbc
BBC has a HUGE tone. I love it.
A bit more saturated than the usual, but its ALIVE.
Post by: Chris W on November 05, 2023, 09:51:38 AM
NOT the way Sultans should have been played ?
Did you tell Mark during the tour or is it just a thought 30 years later ?
In the 90's I had a style that was based on the top American drummers of the time - Omar Hakim, Jeff Porcaro, Andy Newark. Simple, solid, confident.
My playing on Sultans was exacerbated by Mark telling me to play very hard during the show. Then after a few shows we brought in the small kit and I had to sit directly in front of Mark's guitar cabinets. So it was deafening.
Anyway - not '30 years later', when music tastes changed (late 90's) and a lot of popular music used drum loops from vintage vinyl, I discovered the value of playing much quieter, as many drummers had done in the 60's and 70's. That was when I thought I wished I had played Sultans lighter - like Pick. Pick came out of that lighter playing tradition of the 60's and 70's drummers.
Post by: Chris W on November 05, 2023, 09:55:45 AM
Mk has complained a lot with things getting too big. But they do not necessarily have to be that big on stage. A stage setup which, according to chris witten himself, had an impact on the way he heard things and the way he had to play. Was music the priority then ?
Yes, we rehearsed for three months solid before the first show. The show itself evolved over the months and was quite different in Europe 1992 than in Australia 1991.
Post by: Dutchessy on November 05, 2023, 10:26:47 AM
Also i have never liked the guitar sound from live at the bbcYou mean the bass sound? Too high in the mix... As if John had been doing the mix... :)
No, Marks guitar. Too distorted, on most tracks, even on Sultans. It sounds much cleaner on the Rainbow show, which i like.
Post by: herlock on November 05, 2023, 10:30:52 AM
I agree that overall it sounds too angry. That does not fit all songs, but some are great:Also i have never liked the guitar sound from live at the bbcYou mean the bass sound? Too high in the mix... As if John had been doing the mix... :)
No, Marks guitar. Too distorted, on most tracks, even on Sultans. It sounds much cleaner on the Rainbow show, which i like.
-Lions end solo is the best ever - faster and rawer than Rockpalast and Rainbow
-What's the matter baby sounds angry and that's the way it should sound!
-Six Blade Knife is maybe not the definite version, but quite an interesting one, raw and angry, very different from both the album and other live versions
-Water of love sounds great
But for Sultans and DTTW it is too raw for my taste, agreed
Post by: dmg on November 05, 2023, 12:36:09 PM
When you say OES, you mean the tour, not the song? I dont' think Guy touched the original OTN songs?Also i have never liked the guitar sound from live at the bbc
A real bug bear of mine too. Very unfortunate as it means I really don't listen to it due to this.
________________
Now my thoughts on the box set. Something that hasn't been covered so far is the improvement to Mark's vocals in the OTN part of the box. It now doesn't have that horrible over-processed sound and is more natural and organic. TYL wasn't something I was particularly looking forward to but after hearing it it is a nice surprise. OES has a good improvement. ITILYTM, WICTY and FTB are great to have in soundboard at long last. TOL and TR were never my favourite versions on this tour I'm afraid. I had just longed for something from the BIA tour, but overall very happy.
I agree with Chris W in that some sound a little different to others. Songs like CE, The Bug and MFN seem the same but others like OES sound a little better to me, especially in regards to the clearer less processed vocal.
Post by: ds1984 on November 05, 2023, 01:15:14 PM
At first I though it sounded like sh.t (especially while attending the show) but after a while listening to the sbd recordings I found it sounding vintage, getting a 50's touch that was accurate to this "back to the 4 piece format".
That is great to finally hear what really happenned with the drumming and my view on Chris has changed.
Already getting the history of "Heavy Fuel" drums re recording by Many Katche, this just confirm what Mark was in search for very big sound and drums.
Post by: Chris W on November 05, 2023, 02:22:57 PM
If there was any problem with the SOS drums, especially at the gig, it's that I was on a movable riser, with limited mics, right in front of a crazily loud bank of speakers pumping out Mark's guitar, and just in front of Mark's monitors pumping out the whole band at high volume.
Post by: dustyvalentino on November 05, 2023, 02:49:40 PM
https://youtu.be/7mPJvC_c6NY?si=uuEPDR05-Y2TqkX5
Post by: JF on November 05, 2023, 03:51:56 PM
Then after a few shows we brought in the small kit and I had to sit directly in front of Mark's guitar cabinets. So it was deafening.
I thought that during this tour, amps and cabinets were behind the stage ?
In fact, when Mark wanted to make larsen with his guitar, he had to to it with his "monitor cabinets" (don't know the right word in english, in french we call it "returns")
Post by: JF on November 05, 2023, 03:56:07 PM
Sixblade knife of the rainbow is slower and almost 2 minutes longer than the bbc version. (I see now its because of the talking haha)
Many songs during this period of the band were much more open to Jam, such as Six Blade Knife, In The Gallery, Wild West End have a longer introduction, as does Down to the Waterline.
yes indeed,
but the longest version of six blade knife I know is from 17th february 79 (the day after Rockpalast)
lot of improvisation during the solo which is by far the longest
https://www.mk-guitar.com/2009/01/19/two-interesting-live-clips-of-dire-straits-six-blade-knife/
Post by: Chris W on November 05, 2023, 04:00:33 PM
I thought that during this tour, amps and cabinets were behind the stage ?
Amp tops and FX were backstage, but cabinets and monitors were back and front. So Mark and John were immersed in very loud music during the show.
Post by: Matchstickman on November 05, 2023, 05:29:54 PM
Chris, if you like, would you please tell us how Calling Elvis developed into the gigantic live spectacle it became? On the album, it is rather laid back and nothing much happens in the second half.
All the best!
Post by: Knopflerfan on November 05, 2023, 06:10:25 PM
Hi guys, long time no write! Amazing to see Chris Whitten (!) writing here. I don't know how many times I watched On the Night as a teenager, but I absolutely loved it and watched it over and over. In my view, the live version of Calling Elvis is one of the band's greatest achievements - what an opener! That is still one of my go-to songs.
Chris, if you like, would you please tell us how Calling Elvis developed into the gigantic live spectacle it became? On the album, it is rather laid back and nothing much happens in the second half.
All the best!
Chris' excellent video is here..
https://youtu.be/DpXNN1HT9wE?feature=shared
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 05, 2023, 06:16:22 PM
Sixblade knife of the rainbow is slower and almost 2 minutes longer than the bbc version. (I see now its because of the talking haha)
Many songs during this period of the band were much more open to Jam, such as Six Blade Knife, In The Gallery, Wild West End have a longer introduction, as does Down to the Waterline.
yes indeed,
but the longest version of six blade knife I know is from 17th february 79 (the day after Rockpalast)
lot of improvisation during the solo which is by far the longest
https://www.mk-guitar.com/2009/01/19/two-interesting-live-clips-of-dire-straits-six-blade-knife/
Yes, but this show for WDR radio the day after Rockpalast 79 was an exception, we can appreciate some interesting things like this extended solo of Six Blade Knife, note that it is long just like the 1977 demo version, it is the same pattern, this is very interesting. Additionally, we have a slightly different introduction to Whats The Matter Baby, Pick does on drums, Eastbound Train with a longer introduction, but as important as Six Blade Knife's exclusive solo in this show is that it contains the latest version of Southbound Again with an extra verse, the only 1979 version that they played like this, basically all of the 1978 versions have this extra verse in Southbound Again, without a doubt, my favorite version of this song.
Post by: Matchstickman on November 05, 2023, 06:27:24 PM
Hi guys, long time no write! Amazing to see Chris Whitten (!) writing here. I don't know how many times I watched On the Night as a teenager, but I absolutely loved it and watched it over and over. In my view, the live version of Calling Elvis is one of the band's greatest achievements - what an opener! That is still one of my go-to songs.
Chris, if you like, would you please tell us how Calling Elvis developed into the gigantic live spectacle it became? On the album, it is rather laid back and nothing much happens in the second half.
All the best!
Chris' excellent video is here..
https://youtu.be/DpXNN1HT9wE?feature=shared
Thanks, I have seen that and it is very interesting indeed, showing some of the intricacies of the song.
Post by: cannibals on November 05, 2023, 08:40:56 PM
https://www.google.nl/amp/s/www.radiorock.com.br/2023/11/04/dire-straits-ex-empresario-recebe-constantes-ofertas-para-retorno-da-banda/amp/
Post by: JF on November 06, 2023, 12:04:05 AM
I thought that during this tour, amps and cabinets were behind the stage ?
Amp tops and FX were backstage, but cabinets and monitors were back and front. So Mark and John were immersed in very loud music during the show.
Thanks for the precisions. :thumbsup
at first, I thought that cabinets were backstage and only monitors on stage. it seems I was wrong :)
Post by: jbaent on November 06, 2023, 06:47:45 AM
After "Lions" in the new "Live at the BBC" there is something new that wasn't in the original release, the BBC Radio Dj introducing the band and when he mentions David Knopfler he says "on guitar and keyboards, David Knopfler".
Keyboards!
Post by: Pottel on November 06, 2023, 08:32:10 AM
tripping the live fantastic was a steady favourite of mine for years! love you and Robbie on that. and yes you are right, your career has been a lot more than DS alone, people on here tend to forget that (and who could blame them, being on here, lol)but the classic DS songs, most of them played during different eras by Pick Withers and Terry Williams, seems to be that you felt quite or uncomfortable or less confident than with the rest. Am I right with this impression?
The other thing people forget that just prior to the On Every Street tour I had worked with Paul McCartney for three years, including a highly acclaimed world tour. His music spanned a far longer period than Dire Straits. We played 50's Rock n Roll in the show, a bunch of Beatles songs and the post Beatles repertoire from early 70's Wings to his latest album (1989). Many of The Beatles songs had never been played live before, and I really wanted to be true to Ringo if I could. Paul, by the way, gave me free reign to do as I wish.
So I would never be unsure or unconfident playing a major show.
We rehearsed with Mark for 3 months? Everything we played was worked out in detail, with Mark, Guy and Allan all acting as musical directors.
As I've said before, when we set up on the stage the first time, Mark said he couldn't feel the energy from my drums, so he had me play louder and louder and when I was pretty much at max volume he asked me to play at that intensity from then on.
Slamming the drums didn't really lend itself to the more sensitive Pick performances. Terry was a louder rock drummer, but in a later interview John said I was the loudest drummer they had ever played with - which was not MY choice.
Post by: jf9081 on November 06, 2023, 09:38:15 AM
I think nobody mentioned something discovered to me by Bruno Nunes.Yes very cute. Curiously, as on BBC they added the presentation of the band, however, on Alchemy it was cut. absurd.
After "Lions" in the new "Live at the BBC" there is something new that wasn't in the original release, the BBC Radio Dj introducing the band and when he mentions David Knopfler he says "on guitar and keyboards, David Knopfler".
Keyboards!
Post by: onceupon84 on November 06, 2023, 10:47:14 AM
Hi Guy,
Something very strange happened to me tonight. Just as I told you in messages back, the sound of the Alchemy was crystal clear compared to all the versions I've had before. But… today when I played OUATITW I felt something strange… it turns out that I compared it to my other old CDs and it sounded the same… I started to think that I had made a mistake in my assessment the other day but… No it could be. I was listening to TOL several times yesterday in my car, and it sounded better than ever. I have started to review all the clues… and…. Oh surprise. All tracks from TYL (excludes TBTP and PB, as these are new mixes) until the end of the concert sound much cleaner than any of their copies in other old formats. It is a feeling of much greater separation of instruments, of clarity in absolutely everything. MK's voice is much cleaner, and a certain feeling of spaciousness. What happened here? Why don't the rest of the tracks sound like that? I think I'm not wrong, it's not a subjective perception. I am very interested in getting the answer to this question, it is my favourite album of all time. In my head there are already too many versions of Alchemy depending on the mix: the original from 1984, TR remixed in 1988, the Blu-ray version from 2010, and finally the other Wolfgang's Vault remix (I have never known where this mix came from, I understand that it is official, maybe intended for radio? It only contains 7 songs). I consider that this second half of the 2023 alchemy remastering is not just another mix, but the pleasant sensation it transmits is such that now I am left wanting to be able to listen to the first part of the concert with that crystalline sound.
Post by: Love Expresso on November 06, 2023, 12:42:59 PM
LE
Post by: Silvertown on November 06, 2023, 12:45:09 PM
Hi, there. Long time no see. I once was a member here. I lost interest in MK after 2018 because of different reasons but Dire Straits is musical history and this new Live box was dreamed of and wanted by many fans for decades, so I think it is really something special. I bought it and want to share my thoughts about it. Greetings to all!
LE
Well, well..welcome! Always happy to hear your opinions!
Post by: superval99 on November 06, 2023, 12:51:32 PM
Post by: rmarques821 on November 06, 2023, 12:54:55 PM
Hi, there. Long time no see. I once was a member here. I lost interest in MK after 2018 because of different reasons but Dire Straits is musical history and this new Live box was dreamed of and wanted by many fans for decades, so I think it is really something special. I bought it and want to share my thoughts about it. Greetings to all!Welcome back LE, stick around!
LE
Post by: benducret on November 06, 2023, 01:18:41 PM
The only thing that ruins it for me is the backing vocals on the chorus, "tunnel of loooo-ooooo-oooo-ve".
They started singing it like that on the BIA tour if I'm not mistaken, and I really don't like it.
It really takes me out of the song which I prefer more rock oriented and raw, like on MM and on Alchemy which remains my favorite version by far.
Tunnel of Love is much more powerful when sung by MK alone imo.
Does any void need to be filled with more and more layers of sustained notes, be they be played by a sax, a pedal Steel or even backing vocals ? It softens an already very laid back music.
Clearly I do not share MK's tastes as far as arrangements and production are concerned.
It just doesn't sound good to my ears.
The final solo is great though, the drums and the whole band are great too on this OTN version. Too bad for the backing vocals.
I keep thinking there were way too many musicians on stage on that tour...
Post by: herlock on November 06, 2023, 01:50:22 PM
TOL as an OTN bonus is surprisingly good, I didn't expect it to be so good.Yes, indeed this TOL is very good, although I don't find it as good as Munich'91, that has some unique fast licks in the end solo that give me goosebumps....
The only thing that ruins it for me is the backing vocals on the chorus, "tunnel of loooo-ooooo-oooo-ve".
They started singing it like that on the BIA tour if I'm not mistaken, and I really don't like it.
It really takes me out of the song which I prefer more rock oriented and raw, like on MM and on Alchemy which remains my favorite version by far.
Tunnel of Love is much more powerful when sung by MK alone imo.
Does any void need to be filled with more and more layers of sustained notes, be they be played by a sax, a pedal Steel or even backing vocals ? It softens an already very laid back music.
Clearly I do not share MK's tastes as far as arrangements and production are concerned.
It just doesn't sound good to my ears.
The final solo is great though, the drums and the whole band are great too on this OTN version. Too bad for the backing vocals.
I keep thinking there were way too many musicians on stage on that tour...
Most people prefer BIA tour versions to OES versions. I think that I do too, '85 versions have everything, le long intro, the break with musical quotes, and a killer end solo... But I can't help loving these romantic OES versions too !
Regarding Alchemy vs. BIA tour, yes the backing vocals of the latter are cheesy, but... I love cheese :) They are too much, but I can't help loving it. Also, the BIA tour versions have a longer, more elaborated end solo than Alchemy. Both are lovely, but I confess a preference for the bad-ass '85 version. TOL really shone that year !
Post by: dustyvalentino on November 06, 2023, 01:59:04 PM
Post by: Love Expresso on November 06, 2023, 02:30:09 PM
I am very pleased with this box, but there are some things that I wished had been done in another way, which is a matter of personal taste, and which does not infect the joy I got from this release.
The Rainbow Show is absolutey awesome, an absolute gem, I love it from the first minute to the last. Maybe because I never was too much into bootlegs, I am stunned by the versions of Portobello Belle, Lions, Southbound Again, Six Blade Knife. Also the historical dimension, the last show in the original line-up, is worth it. This show would have been worth a separate release on it's own and it still would have been justified. I am sure it will be received very well and the Box will reach very good sales because of this show alone. It is also great to hear the band play those last few rock'n roll tracks, they really sound so tight and absolutely energetic, Pick totally stands out, fantastic occasion to hear these tracks in a phantastic quality!
Speaking of bootlegs, sometimes I pity many of you for knowing TOO much. I have the feeling that you can't enjoy music anymore as you always start to compare with all the thousand versions you have in your head. Also the nitpicking about recordings, sound, drums, mix, track lengths, missing Thank you's and all that are only spoiling the fun from my point of view. After reading this thread, I expected to listen to a total crap amateurish recording, but the whole box sounds so crystal clear that it made be literally dream back to the times I became a fan and it gave me chills and I remembered very concrete concert moments from 1991 and 1992, much more than all the MK download shows could possibly ever do, even when I had been at the shows. Dire Straits Live and MK Live is a difference as Day and Night. Tunnel of Love is really epic, what a piece of music, I totally understand that he skipped it and never played it again solo as it is the high point of Dire Straits live performance. The meaning it must have had for him personally made it his best archievment.
Guy gave the band great justice, it sounds so fresh and finally Dire Straits Live get the treatment they really deserve. This Box is something I want to spread, I want to give to anybody to listen to, something that I had not felt with any MK solo album anymore since Shangri-La 2004.
There are two things that I wished Guy had found another solution, though. All new tracks on On The Night I love very much – Sultans, sounds great, Tunnel of Love and Telegraph Road, having both is phantastic, and I am addicted to these tracks already. When It Comes to You, Two Young Lovers, all sounding very nice and fully satisfying. BUT: As you might remember, the original release had to be a single Album as Mark felt it was too close to the Alchemy double album, so they made a single album, but left space in the CD case for the Encore CD. The Encores are no encores in the literal sense, The Bug and Your Latest Trick were standard set list songs. So the term „Encore“ meant more the physical thing as an addition instead of the real „encores“.
As they made it an double CD now, they could have put the original set list order on it, it was a two hour show, so every CD could have had space for another 15 minutes, like Tunnel AND Telegraph. The new songs that only had been played occasionally like Fade to Black or I Think I Love You Too Much, would have justified a new concept of Bonus CD, f.e. On „Another“ Night, if you like. So now it is the full show but not in the right order, which is a pity. The „Encore“ CD has no special value in this box is what I want to say here. The set list of the OES tour was working very well and f.e. The Bug was at a perfect place, also Going Home as the final track would have made the new double CD much better, more complete in the artistic meaning of the word.
Also the Live At The BBC show is not a valuable addition, the Mono/Stereo argument for Tunnel of Love is not enough, as that track always felt not right on that album anyway which was called Live At The BBC and not Live in whatever. I never understood why they attached it to the show.
Alchemy is great and more complete now, I can't agree to the Portobello Belle „desaster“ argumeas I never liked that version anyway, so I am happy it was shortened. Folks should listen to the Portobello Belle from Rainbow more which is superior to the Alchemy version in my opinion.
The lack of a 1985/1986 show can only mean that we get a Brothers In Arms Jubilee Box in 2025, it must be, it would be insane to leave something from that era out and put Live At The BBC into it instead.
So, that are my thoughts. I have to tell you that I got my box at the German Media Markt for 18,99 € which I am sure was a mistake by them. (I even said at the counter „wow, that's very cheap, isn't it, and the girl only said, well yes, CDs are not that expensive anymore...“ So I think it was just karma.)
I love this Box, and I hope it opens new ways of release politics. So 2024 will see a new MK album, no tour, 2025 the BIA Box, totally plausible to me. That box hopefully contains the Wembley 1985 show both audio and Blu-Ray. It seems the end of Mark Knopflers solo career finally opens the doors for long awaited gems from the vault.
LE
Post by: herlock on November 06, 2023, 02:38:35 PM
I do agree on most points, except on one, Portbolello Belle. I think the 1983 version is highly emotional, I like it better than the 1979 one (altough it is quite wonderful too).
Agreed about the BIA tour, I would add that we don't talk enough about the OL tour, also missing. News, Lions, WDTYYG, DTTW, Anger of Mercy, and the first TR ever would be a gem to have on sounboard ! Paris 17/06/1981 comes to mind...
Post by: dmg on November 06, 2023, 03:19:08 PM
Post by: rmarques821 on November 06, 2023, 03:56:14 PM
Very interesting LE, thanks for sharing.Man, I would love to have a 1981 version of Where Do You Think You're Going, with those synths and the middle solo
I do agree on most points, except on one, Portbolello Belle. I think the 1983 version is highly emotional, I like it better than the 1979 one (altough it is quite wonderful too).
Agreed about the BIA tour, I would add that we don't talk enough about the OL tour, also missing. News, Lions, WDTYYG, DTTW, Anger of Mercy, and the first TR ever would be a gem to have on sounboard ! Paris 17/06/1981 comes to mind...
Post by: Chris W on November 06, 2023, 04:16:46 PM
Post by: Marnix on November 06, 2023, 05:12:56 PM
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2tm39k7kQ7Z7wzZEuLqYCe?si=RXoGp2hpSTqoXRLxWRPzBA
Post by: Dutchessy on November 06, 2023, 05:41:44 PM
That’s the reason I made this On the night playlist with The Bug on the right spot and closing with Solid Rock and Wild Theme
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2tm39k7kQ7Z7wzZEuLqYCe?si=RXoGp2hpSTqoXRLxWRPzBA
Haha, I did the same last friday ;D But the transitions of the songs don't work smoothly. But that's alright for me
Post by: Marnix on November 06, 2023, 05:53:10 PM
That’s the reason I made this On the night playlist with The Bug on the right spot and closing with Solid Rock and Wild Theme
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2tm39k7kQ7Z7wzZEuLqYCe?si=RXoGp2hpSTqoXRLxWRPzBA
Haha, I did the same last friday ;D But the transitions of the songs don't work smoothly. But that's alright for me
That’s true but like this it’s the most complete we will get
Post by: Love Expresso on November 06, 2023, 06:31:04 PM
From my memory, we never played Tunnel and Telegraph in the same show. I agree though, Going Home should always be the last track.
I am aware of that, but of course now that we have both, I would never vote for either one or the other. :lol What I meant was that the lengths of a Double CD 2x75min would allow the full 120 min OES standard set plus some alternative tracks. But I am very happy with what we got already.
Great to have you here by the way. I love (and highly recommend) your YouTube channel.
LE
Post by: Love Expresso on November 06, 2023, 06:55:10 PM
LE
Post by: Rivers Of Rain on November 06, 2023, 07:06:26 PM
Also the Live At The BBC show is not a valuable addition, the Mono/Stereo argument for Tunnel of Love is not enough, as that track always felt not right on that album anyway which was called Live At The BBC and not Live in whatever. I never understood why they attached it to the show.
I couldn't agree more about the inclusion of Tunnel of Love on Live At The BBC, I have never understood why it was on that release. I like the rest of that album a lot but I only ever play it up to What's The Matter Baby because the last song feel so tacked on. I love the song and there's nothing wrong with the performance as such, but it represents a different era musically and is jarringly out of place with the other songs, which capture the essence of the 'stripped back four piece' band from the first few years.
Post by: Robson on November 06, 2023, 07:15:00 PM
Post by: straitsway75 on November 06, 2023, 08:27:12 PM
Thanks very much Dire Straits
Post by: Terry82 on November 06, 2023, 09:13:51 PM
Post by: Dutchessy on November 06, 2023, 09:41:26 PM
Same as Solid Rock with TR on Alchemy? ???
Post by: Marnix on November 06, 2023, 09:52:01 PM
Did anyone noticed the switch of You and your friend with on every street?Yes indeed maybe a vinyl thing? That was also the reason of change with the songs on Alchemy
Same as Solid Rock with TR on Alchemy? ???
Post by: Robson on November 06, 2023, 09:53:56 PM
Did anyone noticed the switch of You and your friend with on every street?
Same as Solid Rock with TR on Alchemy? ???
Fact. In the first version, first there is On Every Street and then You And Your Friend.
Post by: Robson on November 06, 2023, 09:55:37 PM
Did anyone noticed the switch of You and your friend with on every street?Yes indeed maybe a vinyl thing? That was also the reason of change with the songs on Alchemy
Same as Solid Rock with TR on Alchemy? ???
But the same order is also on the CD.
Post by: Marnix on November 06, 2023, 10:00:31 PM
https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/dire-straits/1992/feijenoord-stadion-rotterdam-netherlands-4bd43326.html
Post by: Dutchessy on November 06, 2023, 10:51:32 PM
The reason is that’s how it was played setlist wise
https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/dire-straits/1992/feijenoord-stadion-rotterdam-netherlands-4bd43326.html
So the song order from On the Night has always been the wrong one. Never knew that
Post by: Pottel on November 07, 2023, 08:29:56 AM
That’s the reason I made this On the night playlist with The Bug on the right spot and closing with Solid Rock and Wild Themethnx, listening now.
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2tm39k7kQ7Z7wzZEuLqYCe?si=RXoGp2hpSTqoXRLxWRPzBA
Post by: Love Expresso on November 07, 2023, 11:11:12 AM
And then this wonderful track being followed by Telegraph Road in a never before heard quality. I really feel blessed.
This Box makes me struggle to keep up with daily life...
LE
Post by: Marnix on November 07, 2023, 01:20:25 PM
Or is one of bonus tracks recorded in Paris?
Post by: jbaent on November 07, 2023, 02:48:31 PM
In the press release of the live box Paris is also mentioned as recording location for On the night but they only used Nimes may 19-21 and Rotterdam may 29-31/june 1 for the album?
Or is one of bonus tracks recorded in Paris?
It's a mistake from who made the press note, as they state in the DS official site, in the discography section, when talking about OTN, that Paris, Només and Rotterdam shows were recorded for this record, but they forget to read where it says "but only Nimes and Rotterdam were used".
Post by: Terry82 on November 07, 2023, 06:07:44 PM
Post by: Chris W on November 07, 2023, 06:20:32 PM
Post by: Marnix on November 07, 2023, 07:06:23 PM
As far as I was aware On The Night came from Nimes and Rotterdam. I was not aware that the Paris show had been recorded (I forgot), but this also makes sense as Neil Dorfsman came out before Nimes and they probably recorded Paris as a dry run to test the results before the Nimes shows.
Thnx for this information!!
Post by: olazabalrok on November 07, 2023, 08:08:11 PM
Do you guys think that the tomorrow premiere of Alchemy Video on YT containg the missings songs? I hope that.. if happens i will be very happy..
No chance.
Post by: onceupon84 on November 07, 2023, 10:18:15 PM
Do you guys think that the tomorrow premiere of Alchemy Video on YT containg the missings songs? I hope that.. if happens i will be very happy..
NO. It is 1:27:23 long.
Post by: jbaent on November 08, 2023, 08:18:56 AM
Do you guys think that the tomorrow premiere of Alchemy Video on YT containg the missings songs? I hope that.. if happens i will be very happy..
No, the text of the advertizing says it's going to be the current released version.
Post by: jbaent on November 08, 2023, 08:23:46 AM
As far as I was aware On The Night came from Nimes and Rotterdam. I was not aware that the Paris show had been recorded (I forgot), but this also makes sense as Neil Dorfsman came out before Nimes and they probably recorded Paris as a dry run to test the results before the Nimes shows.
In the documentary from Canal Plus France, 24 heures, about the concerts in Paris it can be seen the mobile recording while they record:
https://youtu.be/K83cqmlN4gI?si=t_5l38g04MM5exgM&t=2344
Those images starts at 39.06
Also I remember reading in a Tour Itinerary that Paris shows were marked as shows being recorded.
Post by: jbaent on November 08, 2023, 08:29:02 AM
As far as I was aware On The Night came from Nimes and Rotterdam. I was not aware that the Paris show had been recorded (I forgot), but this also makes sense as Neil Dorfsman came out before Nimes and they probably recorded Paris as a dry run to test the results before the Nimes shows.
Here (at 46.52) you can see John Illsley just after the concert in a car, I guess that with his son, talking about the show being recorded and also makes a comment about the drums.
https://youtu.be/K83cqmlN4gI?si=f08RhdWwa0MyEiqk&t=2812
Post by: herlock on November 08, 2023, 08:35:26 AM
It seems that they intended to use Paris at first, but then only realized that the tapes got currupted, without updating the notes.
Since PONO and Iron Hand were spread at the beginning and at the end of Paris residency, it would find it hard to believe that only some of the recordings were lost - we would have at least one PONO! They must have been lost in totality. A real pity...
Post by: Chris W on November 08, 2023, 09:44:05 AM
The comment about 'nervousness on the drums' was 110% bollocks.
And this goes back to my earlier post where I remember being mystified that John asked me if I was nervous playing Madison Square Garden (no I wasn't), when 18months earlier I had played two shows at the much, much bigger Giants Stadium outside New York.
I think when people can't put their finger on any specific issue they start talking about 'the drums' because it's unquantifiable, unmeasurable.
Post by: Marnix on November 08, 2023, 09:57:20 AM
1. Calling Elvis Rotterdam june 1
2. Walk Of Life Rotterdam may 30
3. Heavy Fuel Nimes may 20
4. Romeo And Juliet Nimes may 20
5. Private Investigations Nimes may 20
6. Sultans Of Swing * Rotterdam, may 30
7. Fade To Black * Nimes, may 21
8. Your Latest Trick Nimes may 20
9. When it comes to you * Nimes may 21
10. I Think I Love You Too Much* Rotterdam may 30
11. You And Your Friend Rotterdam may 31
12. On Every Street Rotterdam june 1
13. Two Young Lovers* Rotterdam may 31
14. Tunnel Of Love* Rotterdam may 30
15. Telegraph Road* Nimes, may 21
16. Money For Nothing Rotterdam, june 1
17. Brothers In Ams Rotterdam june 1
Encores
1. Your Latest Trick Nimes may 20
2. The Bug Nimes may 20
3. Solid Rock Rotterdam june 1
4. Wild Theme Rotterdam june 1
Post by: Dutchessy on November 08, 2023, 09:59:06 AM
I think you are way too harsh now on Guy's forum... maybe you should give him a break... It's getting really cringe and awkward.. I'm feeling for you btw, that you are so critical and disappointed and can't enjoy these beautiful OTN tracks.
Let it go and try to enjoy...
Post by: Dutchessy on November 08, 2023, 10:01:17 AM
So correct me if I am wrong these are the recording dates for On The Night & Encores.
1. Calling Elvis Rotterdam june 1
2. Walk Of Life Rotterdam may 30
3. Heavy Fuel Nimes may 20
4. Romeo And Juliet Nimes may 20
5. Private Investigations Nimes may 20
6. Sultans Of Swing * Rotterdam, may 30
7. Fade To Black * Nimes, may 21
8. Your Latest Trick Nimes may 20
9. When it comes to you * Nimes may 21
10. I Think I Love You Too Much* Rotterdam may 30
11. You And Your Friend Rotterdam may 31
12. On Every Street Rotterdam june 1
13. Two Young Lovers* Rotterdam may 31
14. Tunnel Of Love* Rotterdam may 30
15. Telegraph Road* Nimes, may 21
16. Money For Nothing Rotterdam, june 1
17. Brothers In Ams Rotterdam june 1
Encores
1. Your Latest Trick Nimes may 20
2. The Bug Nimes may 20
3. Solid Rock Rotterdam june 1
4. Wild Theme Rotterdam june 1
On FB i saw this yesterday:
1. Calling Elvis - Nimes 21.05.1992 (mixed a lot)
2. Walk Of Life - Rotterdam 30.05.1992
3. Heavy Fuel - Nimes 20.05.1992
4. Romeo And Juliet - Nimes 20.05.1992
5. The Bug - Nimes 20.05.1992
6. Private Investigations - Nimes 20.05.1992
7. Sultans Of Swing - Rotterdam 30.05.1992
8. Your Latest Trick - Nimes 20.05.1992
9. Fade To Black - Nimes 21.05.1992
10. When It comes To You - Nimes 21.05.1992
11. I Think I Love You Too Much - Rotterdam 30.05.1992
12. You And Your Friend - Rotterdam 31.05.1992
13. On Every Street - Nimes 20.05.1992
14. Two Young Lovers - Rotterdam 31.05.1992
15. Tunnel Of Love - Rotterdam - 30.05.1992
16. Telegraph Road - Nimes 21.05.1992
17. Money For Nothing - Rotterdam 31.05.1992
18. Brothers In Arms - Rotterdam 31.05.1992
19. Solid Rock - Rotterdam 31.05.1992
20. Local Heroes/Whild Theme - Rotterdam 30.05.1992
Don't know which is correct, but i don't see any 1 june on that list.
Post by: Chris W on November 08, 2023, 10:06:34 AM
Post by: Marnix on November 08, 2023, 10:11:01 AM
The dates for june 1 are based on what i found on Jeroen his website "On Every Bootleg"
Post by: dustyvalentino on November 08, 2023, 10:24:13 AM
The comment about 'nervousness on the drums' was 110% bollocks.
Lolz. As a middle aged male nerd I've been on forums about music and films for half my life where people criticise the performers (and yes, I've been critical myself, no doubt unfairly on occasion).
This is he first time I've ever seen a performer come back and stand their ground, good for you Chris!
Post by: Chris W on November 08, 2023, 10:32:14 AM
I know the Basel show (direct broadcast) is a loved video by many.
John is ill advised criticising anyone in the band on camera, especially when he repeats multiple times "great show".
This sort of illustrates why the band had multiple sidemen over the years. You bust a gut to enable what many perceive as a peerless live show, then get picked on in an off the cuff remark afterwards.
Post by: rmarques821 on November 08, 2023, 10:57:26 AM
Well a lot of stuff was repaired when they mixed On The Night - except the drums.I always got the feeling that John was never very enthusiatic about you joining in for the tour, for some reason. I remember watching him talking about it on the MTV Special 1991 and he just shrugs his shoulders and says "OK, he's on board".
I know the Basel show (direct broadcast) is a loved video by many.
John is ill advised criticising anyone in the band on camera, especially when he repeats multiple times "great show".
This sort of illustrates why the band had multiple sidemen over the years. You bust a gut to enable what many perceive as a peerless live show, then get picked on in an off the cuff remark afterwards.
Post by: Chris W on November 08, 2023, 11:14:34 AM
They could pick anyone from the UK drumming community.
They were disappointed that neither Porcaro or Katche agreed to do the tour.
I actually turned down the DS gig three times because I left McCartney to concentrate on studio work, but they kept chasing me.
You cannot go on a multi-million dollar tour for 14 months with a drummer you don't want to play with.
The actual tour was cancelled by 6 months due to the first gulf war, so they had time then to audition other drummers and find someone they preferred to me.
THEY DIDN'T!!!
Post by: dustyvalentino on November 08, 2023, 11:56:50 AM
Quote
Other new faces in the touring line-up included Chris Whitten
on drums, Danny Cummings on percussion, with Chris White on
saxophone returning for his second tour. Chris Whitten was an excellent session drummer who we had met at AIR Studios, where he
had been working with Paul McCartney on the Flowers in the Dirt
album in the adjacent studio, and he had also drawn praise for his
playing on the Waterboys’ This is the Sea, notably on its best-known
song, ‘The Whole of the Moon’.
Post by: jbaent on November 08, 2023, 11:58:25 AM
Well a lot of stuff was repaired when they mixed On The Night - except the drums.I always got the feeling that John was never very enthusiatic about you joining in for the tour, for some reason. I remember watching him talking about it on the MTV Special 1991 and he just shrugs his shoulders and says "OK, he's on board".
I know the Basel show (direct broadcast) is a loved video by many.
John is ill advised criticising anyone in the band on camera, especially when he repeats multiple times "great show".
This sort of illustrates why the band had multiple sidemen over the years. You bust a gut to enable what many perceive as a peerless live show, then get picked on in an off the cuff remark afterwards.
I also remember Phil Palmer telling in his book that John made his best to make him feel like he wasn't welcome in his company, or wasn't worth of his company, can't remember the exact words Phil wrote, but the meaning was that.
My point of view is that John was on charge together with Paul Cummins of the economical aspects of the tour, so he was like "in other department besides being the bassist and MK's right hand.
What always like is to know about the gangs during the tour, you told us Chris that you use to hang around with the other Chris, for Phil's book we know, Alan, Guy and Danny were other gang, I guess MK was by himself or with the management, and John with Paul Cummins. We know Phil Palmer made a friendship with Peter Mackay, but what about Paul Franklin? Are those gangs right? I bet a long tour like this needs a lot of camadirie between the people involved.
Post by: jbaent on November 08, 2023, 12:03:04 PM
Again, it's nonsense.
They could pick anyone from the UK drumming community.
They were disappointed that neither Porcaro or Katche agreed to do the tour.
I actually turned down the DS gig three times because I left McCartney to concentrate on studio work, but they kept chasing me.
You cannot go on a multi-million dollar tour for 14 months with a drummer you don't want to play with.
The actual tour was cancelled by 6 months due to the first gulf war, so they had time then to audition other drummers and find someone they preferred to me.
THEY DIDN'T!!!
The selection of musicians for this tour always amazed me, as this was the first time MK wanted highly regarded session musicians to be in the touring band and it is known that Vince Gill refused the role of second guitar player and also Jeff Porcaro and Manu Katche refused to be the drummers, I always wondered if there was anyone else asked before they signed Phil and you. Just for curiosity as both of you had a name and prestige enough to be first selections.
Post by: jabbathehut on November 08, 2023, 02:50:07 PM
Post by: JF on November 08, 2023, 03:10:11 PM
Enjoying the set .Slowly working my way through it.Have one question,apologies if its been asked before but why does your latest trick appear twice in on the night.
I would say lazyness ! the jus took the old masters and that's all !
they even don't put the setlist in the correct order !
Post by: jbaent on November 08, 2023, 03:12:51 PM
Enjoying the set .Slowly working my way through it.Have one question,apologies if its been asked before but why does your latest trick appear twice in on the night.
Twice in OTN?
It is once in OTN and another in Encores which are different records.
Post by: milicz on November 08, 2023, 03:26:05 PM
That’s the reason I made this On the night playlist with The Bug on the right spot and closing with Solid Rock and Wild ThemeFinally! I'm in the US and they haven't released the new versions, but I can play them via the playlist!
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2tm39k7kQ7Z7wzZEuLqYCe?si=RXoGp2hpSTqoXRLxWRPzBA
If anyone can do the same for the rainbow show it'd be appreciated...
Sent from my XQ-DQ62 using Tapatalk
Post by: Rolo on November 08, 2023, 03:28:40 PM
The selection of musicians for this tour always amazed me, as this was the first time MK wanted highly regarded session musicians to be in the touring band and it is known that Vince Gill refused the role of second guitar player and also Jeff Porcaro and Manu Katche refused to be the drummers, I always wondered if there was anyone else asked before they signed Phil and you. Just for curiosity as both of you had a name and prestige enough to be first selections.
i've read on a Guitar Player Magazine (i suppose) an interview with Vince Gill and he tells that Mark wanted him for the OES Tour.
He refused and MK got angry.
From the start, we know that Mark wanted Porcaro or Kacthé.
Porcaro refused and Manu has his public opinion about Mark saying that he is a prick.
Phil tells how he joined DS on an Aderton's TV video on YT.
He tells that, cause his contract with DS, he and Allan was unable to play on Clapton's MTV Unplugged.
I suppose that Allan didn't want to join the OES Tour because he kwen that would be the last DS tour and, because of that, he would loose his partnership with EC.
So, DS made the tour and AC never joined a major artist line-up again.
Chris already told us that the OES Tour was a pain in the ass.
So, everyone on the UK Drumming Community knews that work with MK & Cia was a hell.
I think its funny the role that JI was in the band.
He was, by far, the band's worst musician (or less talented).
Its a real pleasure to a bass player to play with an amazing drummer like Chris. And, seems to me, that JI didn't want to learn from the drummers.
Phil and Chris are top notch musicians and this is unquestionable.
Post by: dustyvalentino on November 08, 2023, 03:42:34 PM
I agree that John isn't a particularly great musician, but hey, sometimes in life it's better to be lucky than good!
Post by: Rolo on November 08, 2023, 03:50:02 PM
I agree that John isn't a particularly great musician, but hey, sometimes in life it's better to be lucky than good!
HAHAHA. Oh yes.
John has his value as a big financial part on DS.
Post by: Robson on November 08, 2023, 03:51:42 PM
Del Shannon's "Runaway" is great. On the Brothers In Arms tour, "Tunnel Of Love" lasted over 24 minutes (Uniondale) and had "Riders On The Storm" by The Doors and "Ghost Riders In The Sky" Maybe one day they'll find something from that tour and it will appear on an official album.
Post by: Chris W on November 08, 2023, 05:36:28 PM
I always wondered if there was anyone else asked before they signed Phil and you. Just for curiosity as both of you had a name and prestige enough to be first selections.
Like I said, I turned it down multiple times, not anything against DS, but I had had a couple of hit albums as a studio musician, I had just spent 3 years pretty much exclusively tied to McCartney and saw myself getting back into freelance studio work. The last thing on my mind was 1.5 years with DS.
John I is a strange bird. I don't think there was any time that DS were at Air Studios when I was there with Macca. I was told they saw me playing with Paul at The Knebworth Nordoff Robbins show and were impressed.
Post by: Chris W on November 08, 2023, 05:42:51 PM
What always like is to know about the gangs during the tour
One team was Guy, Allan and Danny C. Phil kind of kept to himself, but sometimes hung with Allan, Guy and Danny. I spent most of my time with Chris White and Paul Franklin. I saw them as the down to earth, not trying to be rock stars on the road, kind of guys.
Mark and John hung out. People like Paul Cummins and Ed Bicknell came out to occasional gigs, but weren't there a lot of the time.
I liked Paul Cummins, I liked John actually.
If you think the drums sound nervous, talk to me about it, or bring it up at the next sound check, don't mention it (and nothing else!!) to a tv reporter. It's crap. I think he was just trying to sound deep, knowledgeable. The drummer wasn't nervous.
Post by: milicz on November 08, 2023, 05:50:39 PM
If you think the drums sound nervous, talk to me about it, or bring it up at the next sound check, don't mention it (and nothing else!!) to a tv reporter. It's crap. I think he was just trying to sound deep, knowledgeable. The drummer wasn't nervous.
Since you've referenced this a bit I just took a listen. Sounds like he's talking about himself and was projecting a little towards the band (maybe Mark). The drums comment is almost a throwaway and he qualifies it right after that it sounded great.
My box set (vinyl) arrives today. Can't wait to hear it. Since the US version doesn't get released till 2024 I had to order from Germany.
Post by: Elin N on November 08, 2023, 06:07:47 PM
I was hoping for some "new" pics in the booklet, but no. I sorely miss the tour diary and to feel connected to the band. Nowadays is seems like BG is a super-ultra top secret fortress and no pics or information can be posted (see, I can complain too :lol )
Post by: jabbathehut on November 08, 2023, 06:30:31 PM
Enjoying the set .Slowly working my way through it.Have one question,apologies if its been asked before but why does your latest trick appear twice in on the night.
Twice in OTN?
It is once in OTN and another in Encores which are different records.
Ok i see that are they both from the same show?.I suppose even if they are they would have to include it for completeness.I guess bad on them for including it in the encores which was a separate release.I think i have both cassettes in one sleeve.
Also did they play money for nothing without the intro or was it just cut.
Post by: Chris W on November 08, 2023, 06:45:04 PM
Post by: Robson on November 08, 2023, 06:59:17 PM
MFN never had the album intro on the OES tour. Fairly early on (first few shows?) Mark started to tease the opening guitar riff, then stopped while the crowd went crazy.
It was long minutes in Basel (28.06.1992) but I liked it :)
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 09, 2023, 12:04:37 AM
1- For the video they used scenes from Nimes and Rotterdam, it is a montage, despite them wearing the same clothes, the secret is in the microphones on Mark's pedestal, as there are two microphones, the filming is in Rotterdam, when the scene shows the stand with a microphone, filming is in Nimes. I believe that a second microphone was placed on Mark's stand to better capture the instrument, perhaps through the PA return to the band, as this show was being recorded in a football stadium, (some sound engineer must have given this tip at the time)
2- As for the audio, what is noticeable is that the track in its entirety, just like the video, is a lot of editing work, excerpts from different shows, between Nimes and Rotterdam and excerpts of guitar licks that are not in any of the bootleg recordings we have. Until that moment when Mark does the first guitar link in the intro, he greets the audience with something like, "alright", it never happened like that, in no show I know does he do it like that, it's an overdub, that is, the package is very Frankenstein.
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 09, 2023, 12:07:01 AM
Post by: milicz on November 09, 2023, 01:28:46 AM
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 09, 2023, 02:01:24 AM
Your Latest Trick on the recording of 05/20/92 Nimes
It has different details from the OTN version right in the introduction of Danny's percussion, at 00:11 seconds of this track, the way the drums appear in the middle of the percussion is different from the OTN.
Another point, the way Mark sings "yeah my heart that got broken", is different from the OTN version, also in the phrase "standing outside of this wonderland" or the way he sings "is hand it to you" for the last time is different from the OTN version. Ultimately, there are subtleties and details that help to make things identical. :think
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 09, 2023, 02:22:39 AM
Very Hard nerd level, yes, I know, but I always liked diving that way too, that's me! :lol
Post by: jbaent on November 09, 2023, 08:54:25 AM
I just discovered that YLT from OTN used it on 19/05/92, Nimes, it has the same percussion and drum part in the introduction, the sung part is also the same as the OTN version, the interpretation is the same, but the guitar is a little different, which reinforces the thesis that the guitar for this song was re-recorded in the studio, I don't know if with an overdub technique, but something happens, the vocals are the same as OTN, the guitar has a difference in the licks. I recommend checking it out, anyway, I'm "mapping" here.
Very Hard nerd level, yes, I know, but I always liked diving that way too, that's me! :lol
Maybe they didn't re-record it but took that tracks from another date of Nimes and Rotterdam, as long as Guy says that in his diary, regarding the track sheet page:
"The tracks in red were either overdubs or tracks moved from the slave reel"
That tracks moved from the slave reel, I don't get the exact meaning but I understood it like those tracks can be from other dates...
Post by: Chris W on November 09, 2023, 09:14:58 AM
1- For the video they used scenes from Nimes and Rotterdam, it is a montage, despite them wearing the same clothes, the secret is in the microphones on Mark's pedestal, as there are two microphones, the filming is in Rotterdam, when the scene shows the stand with a microphone, filming is in Nimes. I believe that a second microphone was placed on Mark's stand to better capture the instrument, perhaps through the PA return to the band, as this show was being recorded in a football stadium, (some sound engineer must have given this tip at the time)
2- As for the audio, what is noticeable is that the track in its entirety, just like the video, is a lot of editing work, excerpts from different shows, between Nimes and Rotterdam and excerpts of guitar licks that are not in any of the bootleg recordings we have. Until that moment when Mark does the first guitar link in the intro, he greets the audience with something like, "alright", it never happened like that, in no show I know does he do it like that, it's an overdub, that is, the package is very Frankenstein.
The mic on the stand is for any acoustic guitar. I have no idea if it was only used at some shows. It is 100% likely that it was employed by the recording team and had nothing to do with the band or the audience PA.
There is absolutely no way they studio overdubbed Mark shouting 'alright'. From my memory he shouted from time to time at the beginning of Elvis.
Post by: Chris W on November 09, 2023, 09:17:57 AM
Obviously the drums weren't fixed. Chris White told me that he was never asked to re-record anything. I doubt Paul Franklin was either.
Post by: Love Expresso on November 09, 2023, 09:41:59 AM
Just reporting, I just realized that MFN present in On The Night was always the version on 05/31/92 Rotterdam,and Wild Theme on OTN is precisely in Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 30.05.92. I just compared it, I will do this little by little with the other songs!
Ok. Do you find time to just listen and enjoy it occasionally?
LE
Post by: jbaent on November 09, 2023, 09:48:49 AM
I believe they 'fixed' quite a few things for the OTN original album.
Obviously the drums weren't fixed. Chris White told me that he was never asked to re-record anything. I doubt Paul Franklin was either.
Actually Guy said this in his diary:
"There were also instances where some mics weren’t even recorded, as in the case of ‘Sultans Of Swing’ 1992, where one of the drum overheads was mysteriously absent on every night. Obviously, an unnoticed error in the digital patching as the routing was clearly linked to our monitor system, which switched programs (and subsequent channel routing) for each song. In the case of ‘Fade To Black,’ the entire drum kit was muted; this must have been noticed on the night by the engineer, as they came back halfway through the song. I could imagine the frantic radio calls from the mobile truck to the stage crew to “unmute the bloody drums!” Sadly, this was the only night we played that song, so I needed to rebuild the drums from a few samples. Luckily, it wasn’t a complicated part, just a hi-hat and cross-stick. This is something that we would have done back in ’92 (using the Synclavier system), but the technology today makes it a whole lot easier."
The full diary can be read here:
https://www.guyfletcher.co.uk/dire-straits-live-box-set-2023/
Probably if anything from Chris White or Paul Franklin needed fix, they could had take pieces from other nights they recorded, easiest than bring back Paul from Nashville!
Post by: Chris W on November 09, 2023, 10:04:11 AM
Firstly on the new box set version of Fade To Black I can't hear any drums. I know I played brushes. I don't remember playing hi-hat and crosstick in the show. So it's all a mystery to me. On first listening I didn't hear any hi-hat or crosstick in Guy's mix, I didn't actually hear any drums.
It is very hard, often impossible to slide an instrument from one performance of a song to another. Firstly, things like sax audio (from a mic) also has elements of the onstage sound in the audio. Secondly, every night the song would be played at a slightly different tempo. You could copy a small phrase and slide it over, overdubbing it, but it can be a hassle and easier to just re-record it.
Lastly, it's funny that when I suggest nothing by Chris and Paul was fixed it is suggested they may have had their performances edited (copied from another show). Maybe just maybe what they played didn't ever NEED to be fixed.
Post by: jbaent on November 09, 2023, 10:11:25 AM
Well no....
Firstly on the new box set version of Fade To Black I can't hear any drums. I know I played brushes. I don't remember playing hi-hat and crosstick in the show. So it's all a mystery to me. On first listening I didn't hear any hi-hat or crosstick in Guy's mix, I didn't actually hear any drums.
It is very hard, often impossible to slide an instrument from one performance of a song to another. Firstly, things like sax audio (from a mic) also has elements of the onstage sound in the audio. Secondly, every night the song would be played at a slightly different tempo. You could copy a small phrase and slide it over, overdubbing it, but it can be a hassle and easier to just re-record it.
Lastly, it's funny that when I suggest nothing by Chris and Paul was fixed it is suggested they may have had their performances edited (copied from another show). Maybe just maybe what they played didn't ever NEED to be fixed.
I didn't suggested that, just said "if needed fix". I'm sure nothing from his performances was wrong, but technical problems with the recordings could had happened. Problaby they didn't!
Post by: Chris W on November 09, 2023, 10:18:16 AM
I'm still unsure about Guy's diary entry about Fade To Black. It could have been that the kit was actually being recorded but because my brushes were very much quieter than the regular playing that it just didn't register on the tape machine. I can't think if any reason to mute the drums in the middle of a show, unless we played Fade To Black immediately after Sultans (which is a possibility, I can't remember).
Again, from MY memory, I played brushes (like the album) on Fade To Black, not crosstick and hi-hat. Only IIRC.
I can't imagine many 'technical issues' occurring with Paul Franklin. Chris White? Maybe, but as I say, with sax mics picking up the monitors and amps on stage, it would be hard to slide audio from one show to another, but not impossible.
Post by: jbaent on November 09, 2023, 11:31:23 AM
There was probably a technical issue with the Sultans kit because it was a movable set up that was only ever used for one song in the show.
I'm still unsure about Guy's diary entry about Fade To Black. It could have been that the kit was actually being recorded but because my brushes were very much quieter than the regular playing that it just didn't register on the tape machine. I can't think if any reason to mute the drums in the middle of a show, unless we played Fade To Black immediately after Sultans (which is a possibility, I can't remember).
Again, from MY memory, I played brushes (like the album) on Fade To Black, not crosstick and hi-hat. Only IIRC.
I can't imagine many 'technical issues' occurring with Paul Franklin. Chris White? Maybe, but as I say, with sax mics picking up the monitors and amps on stage, it would be hard to slide audio from one show to another, but not impossible.
Yes, "Fade to black" was played just next to "Sultans".
In Fade to black I listen to very low in volume brushes and there is a sound I first though it was hihat but it's actually the brushing hiting the snare softly.
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 09, 2023, 12:47:16 PM
Just reporting, I just realized that MFN present in On The Night was always the version on 05/31/92 Rotterdam,and Wild Theme on OTN is precisely in Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 30.05.92. I just compared it, I will do this little by little with the other songs!
Ok. Do you find time to just listen and enjoy it occasionally?
LE
Let's say that the curiosity to understand what is happening moves me!
Post by: Robson on November 09, 2023, 12:53:51 PM
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 09, 2023, 02:20:44 PM
I also like to know the exact dates of songs from concerts and On The Night is a real maze :o Thank you Brunno Nunes :)
This was to be delivered with strict dates and locations, this is how official material should be released, but, we know the historical neglect with official releases, a lot of inaccuracy in information is regrettable. I'm trying to help do what they should have done, I'm happy to do that, but... that homework would have to be from production, as we know.
Post by: Rolo on November 09, 2023, 02:23:36 PM
I believe they 'fixed' quite a few things for the OTN original album.
Obviously the drums weren't fixed. Chris White told me that he was never asked to re-record anything. I doubt Paul Franklin was either.
I always guessed that the OTN has some studio overdubs.
Post by: dmg on November 09, 2023, 02:24:14 PM
I would presume that the newly released tracks are unedited though, apart from the repairs Guy mentioned.
Post by: Love Expresso on November 09, 2023, 03:05:40 PM
Just reporting, I just realized that MFN present in On The Night was always the version on 05/31/92 Rotterdam,and Wild Theme on OTN is precisely in Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 30.05.92. I just compared it, I will do this little by little with the other songs!
Ok. Do you find time to just listen and enjoy it occasionally?
LE
Let's say that the curiosity to understand what is happening moves me!
The amount of work you put into these investigations seems immense! Very good effort and fans and fanbase in the future will be thankful. So kudos to you!
LE
Post by: Robson on November 09, 2023, 03:44:19 PM
Just reporting, I just realized that MFN present in On The Night was always the version on 05/31/92 Rotterdam,and Wild Theme on OTN is precisely in Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 30.05.92. I just compared it, I will do this little by little with the other songs!
Ok. Do you find time to just listen and enjoy it occasionally?
LE
Let's say that the curiosity to understand what is happening moves me!
The amount of work you put into these investigations seems immense! Very good effort and fans and fanbase in the future will be thankful. So kudos to you!
LE
Exactly!
Post by: Robson on November 09, 2023, 03:47:29 PM
1. Calling Elvis - Nimes 21.05.1992 (mixed a lot)
2. Walk Of Life - Rotterdam 30.05.1992
3. Heavy Fuel - Nimes 20.05.1992
4. Romeo And Juliet - Nimes 20.05.1992
5. The Bug - Nimes 20.05.1992
6. Private Investigations - Nimes 20.05.1992
7. Sultans Of Swing - Rotterdam 30.05.1992
8. Your Latest Trick - Nimes 20.05.1992
9. Fade To Black - Nimes 21.05.1992
10. When It comes To You - Nimes 21.05.1992
11. I Think I Love You Too Much - Rotterdam 30.05.1992
12. You And Your Friend - Rotterdam 31.05.1992
13. On Every Street - Nimes 20.05.1992
14. Two Young Lovers - Rotterdam 31.05.1992
15. Tunnel Of Love - Rotterdam - 30.05.1992
16. Telegraph Road - Nimes 21.05.1992
17. Money For Nothing - Rotterdam 31.05.1992
18. Brothers In Arms - Rotterdam 31.05.1992
19. Solid Rock - Rotterdam 31.05.1992
20. Local Heroes/Whild Theme - Rotterdam 30.05.1992
Post by: Chris W on November 09, 2023, 04:03:04 PM
Yes, "Fade to black" was played just next to "Sultans".
Then yes, they probably muted the main drum kit.
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 09, 2023, 04:05:55 PM
But what about this list? Is it real?
1. Calling Elvis - Nimes 21.05.1992 (mixed a lot)
2. Walk Of Life - Rotterdam 30.05.1992
3. Heavy Fuel - Nimes 20.05.1992
4. Romeo And Juliet - Nimes 20.05.1992
5. The Bug - Nimes 20.05.1992
6. Private Investigations - Nimes 20.05.1992
7. Sultans Of Swing - Rotterdam 30.05.1992
8. Your Latest Trick - Nimes 20.05.1992
9. Fade To Black - Nimes 21.05.1992
10. When It comes To You - Nimes 21.05.1992
11. I Think I Love You Too Much - Rotterdam 30.05.1992
12. You And Your Friend - Rotterdam 31.05.1992
13. On Every Street - Nimes 20.05.1992
14. Two Young Lovers - Rotterdam 31.05.1992
15. Tunnel Of Love - Rotterdam - 30.05.1992
16. Telegraph Road - Nimes 21.05.1992
17. Money For Nothing - Rotterdam 31.05.1992
18. Brothers In Arms - Rotterdam 31.05.1992
19. Solid Rock - Rotterdam 31.05.1992
20. Local Heroes/Whild Theme - Rotterdam 30.05.1992
Apparently this is exactly correct, so far, I clearly noticed that they were specific edits in the audio, in this case, in CE, WOL, YLT, these have excerpts from different shows. Heavy Fuel, R&J, The Bug, PI, are in full, they are exactly as they were played on 05/20/92 Nimes. Later I will analyze others.
Post by: Robson on November 09, 2023, 04:13:27 PM
But what about this list? Is it real?
1. Calling Elvis - Nimes 21.05.1992 (mixed a lot)
2. Walk Of Life - Rotterdam 30.05.1992
3. Heavy Fuel - Nimes 20.05.1992
4. Romeo And Juliet - Nimes 20.05.1992
5. The Bug - Nimes 20.05.1992
6. Private Investigations - Nimes 20.05.1992
7. Sultans Of Swing - Rotterdam 30.05.1992
8. Your Latest Trick - Nimes 20.05.1992
9. Fade To Black - Nimes 21.05.1992
10. When It comes To You - Nimes 21.05.1992
11. I Think I Love You Too Much - Rotterdam 30.05.1992
12. You And Your Friend - Rotterdam 31.05.1992
13. On Every Street - Nimes 20.05.1992
14. Two Young Lovers - Rotterdam 31.05.1992
15. Tunnel Of Love - Rotterdam - 30.05.1992
16. Telegraph Road - Nimes 21.05.1992
17. Money For Nothing - Rotterdam 31.05.1992
18. Brothers In Arms - Rotterdam 31.05.1992
19. Solid Rock - Rotterdam 31.05.1992
20. Local Heroes/Whild Theme - Rotterdam 30.05.1992
Apparently this is exactly correct, so far, I clearly noticed that they were specific edits in the audio, in this case, in CE, WOL, YLT, these have excerpts from different shows. Heavy Fuel, R&J, The Bug, PI, are in full, they are exactly as they were played on 05/20/92 Nimes. Later I will analyze others.
:thumbsup
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 09, 2023, 04:13:44 PM
Just reporting, I just realized that MFN present in On The Night was always the version on 05/31/92 Rotterdam,and Wild Theme on OTN is precisely in Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 30.05.92. I just compared it, I will do this little by little with the other songs!
Ok. Do you find time to just listen and enjoy it occasionally?
LE
Let's say that the curiosity to understand what is happening moves me!
The amount of work you put into these investigations seems immense! Very good effort and fans and fanbase in the future will be thankful. So kudos to you!
LE
Thank you very much for the recognition, my dear, my academic background is a degree in History, so, in this case, I combine my passion for the band and the commitment to preserving the historical value of Dire Straits' work, for the benefit of the band's memory, I do it for love, from fan to fan like many here do.
Post by: Robson on November 09, 2023, 04:15:58 PM
Post by: Matchstickman on November 09, 2023, 04:26:59 PM
The mic on the stand is for any acoustic guitar. I have no idea if it was only used at some shows. It is 100% likely that it was employed by the recording team and had nothing to do with the band or the audience PA.
There is absolutely no way they studio overdubbed Mark shouting 'alright'. From my memory he shouted from time to time at the beginning of Elvis.
Mark did indeed say/shout "All right!" at certain shows. People have mentioned Basel 1992 in this thread, but personally I prefer the Nimes TV broadcast (from later that year). As an evening show, it feels more atmospheric, and in my view, Mark's playing is better in Calling Elvis and in the intro to Heavy Fuel. Before CE starts, he shouts "All right!", so the similar line in On the Night may be from a different night.
Post by: dustyvalentino on November 09, 2023, 04:30:31 PM
Just reporting, I just realized that MFN present in On The Night was always the version on 05/31/92 Rotterdam,and Wild Theme on OTN is precisely in Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 30.05.92. I just compared it, I will do this little by little with the other songs!
Ok. Do you find time to just listen and enjoy it occasionally?
LE
Let's say that the curiosity to understand what is happening moves me!
The amount of work you put into these investigations seems immense! Very good effort and fans and fanbase in the future will be thankful. So kudos to you!
LE
Thank you very much for the recognition, my dear, my academic background is a degree in History, so, in this case, I combine my passion for the band and the commitment to preserving the historical value of Dire Straits' work, for the benefit of the band's memory, I do it for love, from fan to fan like many here do.
With your love of DS I assumed your background was in palaeontology. :)
Post by: Matchstickman on November 09, 2023, 04:31:10 PM
Heavy Fuel, Romeo and Juliet, The Bug and Private Investigations, are without a doubt from 20/05/92, Nimes, equal solos, vocal interpretation equal to what is contained in OTN.
Your Latest Trick on the recording of 05/20/92 Nimes
It has different details from the OTN version right in the introduction of Danny's percussion, at 00:11 seconds of this track, the way the drums appear in the middle of the percussion is different from the OTN.
Another point, the way Mark sings "yeah my heart that got broken", is different from the OTN version, also in the phrase "standing outside of this wonderland" or the way he sings "is hand it to you" for the last time is different from the OTN version. Ultimately, there are subtleties and details that help to make things identical. :think
Like so many others, I find this very interesting to know, thanks a bunch! :clap
Post by: Matchstickman on November 09, 2023, 04:34:12 PM
Post by: Chris W on November 09, 2023, 05:03:36 PM
Post by: Robson on November 09, 2023, 05:09:52 PM
Basel and Nimes were both evening shows, similar start time. Being earlier in the summer, the Basel show had sunlight until later in the evening, that is all. Basel had fine weather. It rained at the Nimes show, which probably means light was reduced by cloud cover and storms brought an even darker atmosphere.
That's true. Sunday, 8 p.m., June 28, was beautiful weather not only in Switzerland, but also in Poland :) Dire Straits never reached my country, but that day we were all at the concert :)
Post by: Matchstickman on November 09, 2023, 05:15:53 PM
Basel and Nimes were both evening shows, similar start time. Being earlier in the summer, the Basel show had sunlight until later in the evening, that is all. Basel had fine weather. It rained at the Nimes show, which probably means light was reduced by cloud cover and storms brought an even darker atmosphere.
Aha, never thought of that! Despite the weather, I have never seen Mark smile as much as in that video :)
Chris, do you recall why the original MFN intro was never used on the OES tour? It was such a famous part of the song and yet it was ditched after only one tour.
Post by: Chris W on November 09, 2023, 05:18:39 PM
Post by: Matchstickman on November 09, 2023, 05:19:52 PM
I guess its was seen as too long, also it had been done on the BIA tour. Lots of things changed between the BIA tour and the OES tour.
OK, yes, thanks, but then he spent five minutes staring at the audience instead :)
Post by: Robson on November 09, 2023, 05:28:01 PM
Post by: superval99 on November 09, 2023, 06:48:12 PM
Post by: GuitarChris on November 09, 2023, 08:49:38 PM
Do you know why Mark unfortunately stopped playing the end solo of Romeo and Juliet and therefore this is not in the record of "On the night"?
It was played in the 1991 shows I have listened to.
Thank you!
Post by: Ingo on November 09, 2023, 08:54:35 PM
Rainbow
I love the Rainbow CDs, what a surprise to see a complete early concert appear after so many years (except from the few tracks that were included in the BBC Arenea documentary).
And great sound with much of the original dynamics preserved.
Live at the BBC
And I love to hear the new version of 'Live at the BBC 1978', as the CD we had before came out at the peak of the 'loudness war' in the 90ies, it was compressed so much :(
This one is much better :)
Alchemy
Great to have the missing songs. What a pity that the 2nd half of Portobelle Belle is missing, I always loved that part.
Strange that it is not version that was remastered by Chuck Ainlay for the BluRay a few years ago (it does not include the sax lick in the intro of Solid Rock...)
On the Night
Love all the 'new' tracks :)
Also the Live At The BBC show is not a valuable addition, the Mono/Stereo argument for Tunnel of Love is not enough, as that track always felt not right on that album anyway which was called Live At The BBC and not Live in whatever. I never understood why they attached it to the show.
I couldn't agree more about the inclusion of Tunnel of Love on Live At The BBC, I have never understood why it was on that release. I like the rest of that album a lot but I only ever play it up to What's The Matter Baby because the last song feel so tacked on. I love the song and there's nothing wrong with the performance as such, but it represents a different era musically and is jarringly out of place with the other songs, which capture the essence of the 'stripped back four piece' band from the first few years.
I think it is strange that this is the Tunnel of Love from Dortmund, RockPop TV, December 1980, and not the version from BBC Whistle test, as stated. The BBC version was a few weeks before the Dortmund version. And I think it is weird to include a mono :( recording to an official CD release.
I think nobody mentioned something discovered to me by Bruno Nunes.
After "Lions" in the new "Live at the BBC" there is something new that wasn't in the original release, the BBC Radio Dj introducing the band and when he mentions David Knopfler he says "on guitar and keyboards, David Knopfler".
Keyboards!
I think in summer 1978 David played his Wurlitzer piano on stage, on Portobelle Belle (listen to the Barbarellas recording from the same month). Not sure if there were more songs played on that Live at the BBC gig, or even the full concert, and only a few songs were broadcasted?
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 10, 2023, 02:57:11 AM
Just reporting, I just realized that MFN present in On The Night was always the version on 05/31/92 Rotterdam,and Wild Theme on OTN is precisely in Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 30.05.92. I just compared it, I will do this little by little with the other songs!
Ok. Do you find time to just listen and enjoy it occasionally?
LE
Let's say that the curiosity to understand what is happening moves me!
The amount of work you put into these investigations seems immense! Very good effort and fans and fanbase in the future will be thankful. So kudos to you!
LE
Yes, it is something that requires a certain amount of attention and sensitivity, even memory, as you can imagine, I believe that I am able to handle these things channeling them in Dire Straits' work. I know that many people don't care about dates and places, just about music, I grew up seeing the inserts of vinyl records from my father's collection, so I always had the habit of seeing the inserts, technical details, where it was recorded , musicians, dates... I know that like me, there are people who care about this type of information, so it's for them in particular.
I can only thank you for the recognition, coming from a big Dire Straits fan, it's an honor. Gratitude! :wave
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 10, 2023, 03:04:21 AM
Do these deep analyzes also apply to MK? I'm very impressed.Yes, one thing naturally leads me to another, I follow MK's solo career and as an observer and detail-oriented, nothing escapes me in the master's work, whether with DS or solo. I'm glad you liked it, thank you!
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 10, 2023, 03:08:06 AM
Just reporting, I just realized that MFN present in On The Night was always the version on 05/31/92 Rotterdam,and Wild Theme on OTN is precisely in Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 30.05.92. I just compared it, I will do this little by little with the other songs!
Ok. Do you find time to just listen and enjoy it occasionally?
LE
Let's say that the curiosity to understand what is happening moves me!
The amount of work you put into these investigations seems immense! Very good effort and fans and fanbase in the future will be thankful. So kudos to you!
LE
Thank you very much for the recognition, my dear, my academic background is a degree in History, so, in this case, I combine my passion for the band and the commitment to preserving the historical value of Dire Straits' work, for the benefit of the band's memory, I do it for love, from fan to fan like many here do.
With your love of DS I assumed your background was in palaeontology. :)
Hahahahah,That was a good one, Dusty! ;D
Post by: Robson on November 10, 2023, 03:09:49 AM
Do these deep analyzes also apply to MK? I'm very impressed.Yes, one thing naturally leads me to another, I follow MK's solo career and as an observer and detail-oriented, nothing escapes me in the master's work, whether with DS or solo. I'm glad you liked it, thank you!
:thumbsup Great! :)
Post by: jbaent on November 10, 2023, 07:34:14 AM
Do these deep analyzes also apply to MK? I'm very impressed.Yes, one thing naturally leads me to another, I follow MK's solo career and as an observer and detail-oriented, nothing escapes me in the master's work, whether with DS or solo. I'm glad you liked it, thank you!
As a DS and MK get-a-lifer, I must admit that all these analysis are something I love and that I would like to have in the form of a book.
Post by: herlock on November 10, 2023, 09:53:54 AM
Indeed, on BBC2 on 31/01/1981, the OGWT show focused on the Dortmund Rockpop event:
http://www.tvpopdiaries.co.uk/1981.html
BBC2 Old Grey Whistle Test 12.00 - 12.40 am
Dire Straits (Rock Pop, Dortmund)
Talking Heads (Rock Pop, Dortmund)
The show is not available, but we can safely assumed that with 40 minutes to share between DS, Talking Head and the chatting of the show, no way the full DS show could be shown, and that only TOL was.
In 1995 when they made the album, they just found the master tape of the OGWT show, and they didn't look further, that's the way they labelled TOL.
A pity they didn't have the full Dortmund show to release, I would have loved to have those great versions of DTTWN, Lions and News on disc. Now we have the videos on the official YT channel, which is good, albeit in mono.
A real pity that it seems that no stereo recording of the great OL tour exists. Maybe they have Werchter soundboard in good quality somewhere, with Angel of Mercy? On the available bootlegs the quality is not good, even if it is a soundboard, News is out of tune, that ruins it...
Post by: goon525 on November 10, 2023, 10:06:41 AM
Post by: dustyvalentino on November 10, 2023, 10:10:05 AM
Qobuz (my chosen high res streaming service) has just published its charts for the last week. Predictably the new Beatles single is at number one - but I think you can guess what's number two.
Taylor Swift?
Post by: JKMark on November 10, 2023, 10:26:51 AM
What’s really interesting is fact that they could run archival project. It’s still market for such work. Only digital download but they could make cds available also. Bruce Springsteen started similar project in 2014 and it’s still ongoing. 100+ shows to get, mostly in very good quality.
Imagine we have dedicated website with downloadable content. Every DS and MK tour covered by several recordings. They have enough material to run such thing in years.
If newest box was check the market out, please move step forward, it’s time. Complete recordings from every possible tour, let’s start with OL or BIA. Or 23.07.1983 in its entirety ;) It’s time to do this. One show per month? See how it goes for other musicians and it works very well.
They could also take better care of Youtube channel which is messy now. I mean, hey, it’s good when things happen but it has to be done carefully and professionally, right? :)
Thank you all for support this board and let’s vault to be open!!!
Post by: herlock on November 10, 2023, 11:26:19 AM
When we say that for TOL the BIA is better... Hum... That may me be true for 1985, with the fantastic long intro and break with multiple musical quotes, but not of the shorter version of 1986 IMHO. Lots of people are fond of the short version of Sydney 86, but playing wise, tone wise, I find this TOL 92 much better. Even at least we have a touching intro and a break, unlike 1986.
Am I the only one to feel that way?
Post by: Dutchessy on November 10, 2023, 11:34:34 AM
The more I listen to TOL Rotterdam 92, the more I love it. It is not as good as Munich 91 I feel, but sjtill excellent.
When we say that for TOL the BIA is better... Hum... That may me be true for 1985, with the fantastic long intro and break with multiple musical quotes, but not of the shorter version of 1986 IMHO. Lots of people are fond of the short version of Sydney 86, but playing wise, tone wise, I find this TOL 92 much better. Even at least we have a touching intro and a break, unlike 1986.
Am I the only one to feel that way?
Soundquality makes it superior IMO.. and that it's been recorded in my favourite football stadum makes it even better ;)
Post by: JKMark on November 10, 2023, 11:40:34 AM
The more I listen to TOL Rotterdam 92, the more I love it. It is not as good as Munich 91 I feel, but sjtill excellent.
When we say that for TOL the BIA is better... Hum... That may me be true for 1985, with the fantastic long intro and break with multiple musical quotes, but not of the shorter version of 1986 IMHO. Lots of people are fond of the short version of Sydney 86, but playing wise, tone wise, I find this TOL 92 much better. Even at least we have a touching intro and a break, unlike 1986.
Am I the only one to feel that way?
For me 1985 are unbeatable. It’s a victory lap of TOL. Would love to hear a pro recording from every tour. 1988 version with TW, EC and Pensa would be very interesting. Kind of mix between BIA and OES.
Post by: jbaent on November 10, 2023, 12:26:14 PM
Hi everyone! It’s probably my first post but I’ve been familiar with this board since very long time. I’m Dire Straits and Mark Knopfler listener, of course. Music enthusiast. I thought I could write something. At least we have such occasion! DS live box. I think most of things were said already. I don’t want to repeat most of them. In general it’s a step forward and in a good direction. I didn’t listen to whole material but yes - I love what I listened to already. Rainbow is a treat. The rest is very good.
What’s really interesting is fact that they could run archival project. It’s still market for such work. Only digital download but they could make cds available also. Bruce Springsteen started similar project in 2014 and it’s still ongoing. 100+ shows to get, mostly in very good quality.
Imagine we have dedicated website with downloadable content. Every DS and MK tour covered by several recordings. They have enough material to run such thing in years.
If newest box was check the market out, please move step forward, it’s time. Complete recordings from every possible tour, let’s start with OL or BIA. Or 23.07.1983 in its entirety ;) It’s time to do this. One show per month? See how it goes for other musicians and it works very well.
They could also take better care of Youtube channel which is messy now. I mean, hey, it’s good when things happen but it has to be done carefully and professionally, right? :)
Thank you all for support this board and let’s vault to be open!!!
I can assure that there some of what you say has been discused but everything ends in a firewall called MK, throught his management.
Actually we're very lucky to have this lot of unreleased material in this box considering usual answer from MK was no to everything, I guess he's now allowing John and Guy to have a say.
Post by: jbaent on November 10, 2023, 12:27:55 PM
The more I listen to TOL Rotterdam 92, the more I love it. It is not as good as Munich 91 I feel, but sjtill excellent.
When we say that for TOL the BIA is better... Hum... That may me be true for 1985, with the fantastic long intro and break with multiple musical quotes, but not of the shorter version of 1986 IMHO. Lots of people are fond of the short version of Sydney 86, but playing wise, tone wise, I find this TOL 92 much better. Even at least we have a touching intro and a break, unlike 1986.
Am I the only one to feel that way?
My favorite has been always the one from the LOG tour, coming from the long musical ouutro of Portobello. Also the BIA tour was pretty awesome with the musical interlude, the version from the OES tour is OK, great as TOL has to be, but it lacks the magic from the previous tours.
For me 1985 are unbeatable. It’s a victory lap of TOL. Would love to hear a pro recording from every tour. 1988 version with TW, EC and Pensa would be very interesting. Kind of mix between BIA and OES.
Post by: dmg on November 10, 2023, 12:58:30 PM
The more I listen to TOL Rotterdam 92, the more I love it. It is not as good as Munich 91 I feel, but sjtill excellent.
When we say that for TOL the BIA is better... Hum... That may me be true for 1985, with the fantastic long intro and break with multiple musical quotes, but not of the shorter version of 1986 IMHO. Lots of people are fond of the short version of Sydney 86, but playing wise, tone wise, I find this TOL 92 much better. Even at least we have a touching intro and a break, unlike 1986.
Am I the only one to feel that way?
For me 1985 are unbeatable. It’s a victory lap of TOL. Would love to hear a pro recording from every tour. 1988 version with TW, EC and Pensa would be very interesting. Kind of mix between BIA and OES.
Agree. The 1985 versions are just so sweet sounding. No fast playing, allowing the song to breathe and the build up has Mark at his melodic best. Added to that you have a beautiful intro and excerpts from other songs, all played on that lovely Schecter Sunburst.
The OES version has, like most songs on that tour, too many instruments playing on it. When it comes to the solo, rather like the TR solo from that tour it's all about speed in the build up and when it comes to the famous part the energy's gone. The Pensa also doesn't have anywhere near sufficient sustain for the main part of that solo and he has to add extra notes making it sound too "busy" for me personally.
Post by: herlock on November 10, 2023, 01:27:58 PM
Post by: peterromer on November 10, 2023, 01:40:55 PM
Hi everyone! It’s probably my first post but I’ve been familiar with this board since very long time. I’m Dire Straits and Mark Knopfler listener, of course. Music enthusiast. I thought I could write something. At least we have such occasion! DS live box. I think most of things were said already. I don’t want to repeat most of them. In general it’s a step forward and in a good direction. I didn’t listen to whole material but yes - I love what I listened to already. Rainbow is a treat. The rest is very good.
What’s really interesting is fact that they could run archival project. It’s still market for such work. Only digital download but they could make cds available also. Bruce Springsteen started similar project in 2014 and it’s still ongoing. 100+ shows to get, mostly in very good quality.
Imagine we have dedicated website with downloadable content. Every DS and MK tour covered by several recordings. They have enough material to run such thing in years.
If newest box was check the market out, please move step forward, it’s time. Complete recordings from every possible tour, let’s start with OL or BIA. Or 23.07.1983 in its entirety ;) It’s time to do this. One show per month? See how it goes for other musicians and it works very well.
They could also take better care of Youtube channel which is messy now. I mean, hey, it’s good when things happen but it has to be done carefully and professionally, right? :)
Thank you all for support this board and let’s vault to be open!!!
I can assure that there some of what you say has been discused but everything ends in a firewall called MK, throught his management.
Actually we're very lucky to have this lot of unreleased material in this box considering usual answer from MK was no to everything, I guess he's now allowing John and Guy to have a say.
Yes, and I think there is more to come. I tend to think that Mark is maybe now considering new releases of older live recordings could be "second best" to the fans, now that he no longer desires to do any new live concerts. Makes perfect sense to think "OK, I am no longer capable to do live concerts or have the desire to do so, but I have tons of recordings that fans would want, and I have Guy who I trust to do a super job". So why not.
Post by: Love Expresso on November 10, 2023, 03:20:10 PM
Regarding this absolutely ridiculous "Encores" reissue, rather than just putting everything in order on OTN, I was wondering: is there a money issue being it? Something like "You can a discount from the distributor if you reissue a disc that was already there"? Can somebody familiar with the industry enlight me?
Agree, good question, and it leads to a question I have in my mind for a coupe of days but hesitate to ask: Chris, do you get any share or financial percentage from this Box, as you are listed as a Musican in it? Please note that I don't ask "how much" but only "if". It's generally somerhing I was always interested in, how and if Musos participate from Album releases and re-releases.
LE
Post by: jbaent on November 10, 2023, 04:48:48 PM
Regarding this absolutely ridiculous "Encores" reissue, rather than just putting everything in order on OTN, I was wondering: is there a money issue being it? Something like "You can a discount from the distributor if you reissue a disc that was already there"? Can somebody familiar with the industry enlight me?
The thing about this box is that it is a "live records box" the same way that the previous one was the "studio records box", with one big difference, they missed to include the Extended Dance Play ep in the studio box and they put nothing extra, and in this one, they put all the live DS records plus extras in both Alchemy, OTN and added a new live unreleased record.
It makes sense.
Post by: Robson on November 10, 2023, 04:55:37 PM
It's true but it's a pity.
Post by: Chris W on November 10, 2023, 06:37:26 PM
Regarding this absolutely ridiculous "Encores" reissue, rather than just putting everything in order on OTN, I was wondering: is there a money issue being it? Something like "You can a discount from the distributor if you reissue a disc that was already there"? Can somebody familiar with the industry enlight me?
Agree, good question, and it leads to a question I have in my mind for a coupe of days but hesitate to ask: Chris, do you get any share or financial percentage from this Box, as you are listed as a Musican in it?
[/quote]
You are joking. :o
Most sidepersons in any band are paid a fee. It can be a per show fee, a weekly fee, or an agreed fee for the tour. My financial interest in Dire Straits ended at Zaragoza, 1992.
Mark and John no doubt own the recordings of the OES tour, so I doubt there is a financial issue with the encores. Maybe they did it like that because some people never bought the original encores CD. I got mine on Ebay a couple of years ago.
Regarding Mark maybe not consulting John and Guy on the releases. Usually the song writer has the most control in any band.
Post by: Love Expresso on November 10, 2023, 06:47:09 PM
LE
Post by: Robson on November 10, 2023, 08:03:18 PM
Post by: herlock on November 10, 2023, 09:30:12 PM
Whatever it is, I just can't help but loving this TOL 92. Lesser than 85, ok, but greater than 86. Just lovely.The more I listen to TOL Rotterdam 92, the more I love it. It is not as good as Munich 91 I feel, but sjtill excellent.
When we say that for TOL the BIA is better... Hum... That may me be true for 1985, with the fantastic long intro and break with multiple musical quotes, but not of the shorter version of 1986 IMHO. Lots of people are fond of the short version of Sydney 86, but playing wise, tone wise, I find this TOL 92 much better. Even at least we have a touching intro and a break, unlike 1986.
Am I the only one to feel that way?
For me 1985 are unbeatable. It’s a victory lap of TOL. Would love to hear a pro recording from every tour. 1988 version with TW, EC and Pensa would be very interesting. Kind of mix between BIA and OES.
Agree. The 1985 versions are just so sweet sounding. No fast playing, allowing the song to breathe and the build up has Mark at his melodic best. Added to that you have a beautiful intro and excerpts from other songs, all played on that lovely Schecter Sunburst.
The OES version has, like most songs on that tour, too many instruments playing on it. When it comes to the solo, rather like the TR solo from that tour it's all about speed in the build up and when it comes to the famous part the energy's gone. The Pensa also doesn't have anywhere near sufficient sustain for the main part of that solo and he has to add extra notes making it sound too "busy" for me personally.
Post by: Ingo on November 10, 2023, 09:52:44 PM
...
A pity they didn't have the full Dortmund show to release, I would have loved to have those great versions of DTTWN, Lions and News on disc. Now we have the videos on the official YT channel, which is good, albeit in mono.
A real pity that it seems that no stereo recording of the great OL tour exists. Maybe they have Werchter soundboard in good quality somewhere, with Angel of Mercy? On the available bootlegs the quality is not good, even if it is a soundboard, News is out of tune, that ruins it...
The reason both the OGWT and the RockPop Dortmund shows were only mono is that both were broadcasted on TV, and TV was mono back then (stereo came very soon after if I remember correcty) , so I would think that a stereo recording never existed of these.
I guess Werchter was also broadcasted on the radio which of course was stereo. Same with the German 'Rockpalast nights' then, mono on TV but with stereo simulcast radio (only true for the Saturday night life shows that were twice a year, the regular Sunday hour of Rockpalast at 7pm every week was never in stereo so no chance of a DS stereo Rockpalast recording some day :(
Post by: herlock on November 10, 2023, 09:58:09 PM
Stereo on TV came with the NICAM standard in 1986, but stereo broadcasts were not commonplace until the 90s....
A pity they didn't have the full Dortmund show to release, I would have loved to have those great versions of DTTWN, Lions and News on disc. Now we have the videos on the official YT channel, which is good, albeit in mono.
A real pity that it seems that no stereo recording of the great OL tour exists. Maybe they have Werchter soundboard in good quality somewhere, with Angel of Mercy? On the available bootlegs the quality is not good, even if it is a soundboard, News is out of tune, that ruins it...
The reason both the OGWT and the RockPop Dortmund shows were only mono is that both were broadcasted on TV, and TV was mono back then (stereo came very soon after if I remember correcty) , so I would think that a stereo recording never existed of these.
I guess Werchter was also broadcasted on the radio which of course was stereo. Same with the German 'Rockpalast nights' then, mono on TV but with stereo simulcast radio (only true for the Saturday night life shows that were twice a year, the regular Sunday hour of Rockpalast at 7pm every week was never in stereo so no chance of a DS stereo Rockpalast recording some day :(
You mean the official releases of DS Rockpalast (the one on ZDF channel web site and the "Cologne" CD that is endorsed by DS official YT channel) are mono only? They sound stereo to me, maybe they went through some spacialization effect?
As for stereo radio broadcasts of the OL tour, we have the very incomplete Werchter, and the sound is atrocious for a sounboard, out of tune most of the time :(
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 10, 2023, 10:30:25 PM
[/quote]The OES version has, like most songs on that tour, too many instruments playing on it. When it comes to the solo, rather like the TR solo from that tour it's all about speed in the build up and when it comes to the famous part the energy's gone. The Pensa also doesn't have anywhere near sufficient sustain for the main part of that solo and he has to add extra notes making it sound too "busy" for me personally.
[/quote]
I have the same point of view about TOL on the OES tour, what is strongest about these versions is the great nostalgia that invades me, I like it, but I'm between the versions from 1982, the beginning of the LOG tour, the band used elements from the Local track Hero in the introduction, something very atmospheric, takes me to paradise, and the powerful versions of the BIA tour, without a doubt, the peak of this song
Post by: JKMark on November 10, 2023, 10:35:31 PM
Whatever it is, I just can't help but loving this TOL 92. Lesser than 85, ok, but greater than 86. Just lovely.The more I listen to TOL Rotterdam 92, the more I love it. It is not as good as Munich 91 I feel, but sjtill excellent.
When we say that for TOL the BIA is better... Hum... That may me be true for 1985, with the fantastic long intro and break with multiple musical quotes, but not of the shorter version of 1986 IMHO. Lots of people are fond of the short version of Sydney 86, but playing wise, tone wise, I find this TOL 92 much better. Even at least we have a touching intro and a break, unlike 1986.
Am I the only one to feel that way?
For me 1985 are unbeatable. It’s a victory lap of TOL. Would love to hear a pro recording from every tour. 1988 version with TW, EC and Pensa would be very interesting. Kind of mix between BIA and OES.
Agree. The 1985 versions are just so sweet sounding. No fast playing, allowing the song to breathe and the build up has Mark at his melodic best. Added to that you have a beautiful intro and excerpts from other songs, all played on that lovely Schecter Sunburst.
The OES version has, like most songs on that tour, too many instruments playing on it. When it comes to the solo, rather like the TR solo from that tour it's all about speed in the build up and when it comes to the famous part the energy's gone. The Pensa also doesn't have anywhere near sufficient sustain for the main part of that solo and he has to add extra notes making it sound too "busy" for me personally.
Lovely with no doubt. Beautiful performance with kind of nostalgia mentioned before.
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 10, 2023, 10:36:32 PM
Do these deep analyzes also apply to MK? I'm very impressed.Yes, one thing naturally leads me to another, I follow MK's solo career and as an observer and detail-oriented, nothing escapes me in the master's work, whether with DS or solo. I'm glad you liked it, thank you!
As a DS and MK get-a-lifer, I must admit that all these analysis are something I love and that I would like to have in the form of a book.
Who knows, maybe one day I will be able to accomplish this feat, I already have incentives, I would need to take a moment to organize my ideas and gather material I already have and produce others. I'm flattered, coming from one of the greatest connoisseurs of Dire Straits and Mark Knopfler's work. Gratitude!! :wave
Post by: JKMark on November 10, 2023, 10:38:55 PM
The OES version has, like most songs on that tour, too many instruments playing on it. When it comes to the solo, rather like the TR solo from that tour it's all about speed in the build up and when it comes to the famous part the energy's gone. The Pensa also doesn't have anywhere near sufficient sustain for the main part of that solo and he has to add extra notes making it sound too "busy" for me personally.
[/quote]
I have the same point of view about TOL on the OES tour, what is strongest about these versions is the great nostalgia that invades me, I like it, but I'm between the versions from 1982, the beginning of the LOG tour, the band used elements from the Local track Hero in the introduction, something very atmospheric, takes me to paradise, and the powerful versions of the BIA tour, without a doubt, the peak of this song
[/quote]
Thanks, I will listen to early LOG versions, can’t remember how they played it then.
Post by: herlock on November 10, 2023, 10:39:28 PM
BTW, I saw on YT that you have found a more complete video of Paris 18.06.1981, with more songs! The sound is still atrocious though :) and some transitions between the songs have been removed (between EL and DTTW and between DTTW and Lions). It's written "INA" all over it, but I can't find it one the INA site. Where did you get it from?Do these deep analyzes also apply to MK? I'm very impressed.Yes, one thing naturally leads me to another, I follow MK's solo career and as an observer and detail-oriented, nothing escapes me in the master's work, whether with DS or solo. I'm glad you liked it, thank you!
As a DS and MK get-a-lifer, I must admit that all these analysis are something I love and that I would like to have in the form of a book.
Who knows, maybe one day I will be able to accomplish this feat, I already have incentives, I would need to take a moment to organize my ideas and gather material I already have and produce others. I'm flattered, coming from one of the greatest connoisseurs of Dire Straits and Mark Knopfler's work. Gratitude!! :wave
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 10, 2023, 10:51:02 PM
The OES version has, like most songs on that tour, too many instruments playing on it. When it comes to the solo, rather like the TR solo from that tour it's all about speed in the build up and when it comes to the famous part the energy's gone. The Pensa also doesn't have anywhere near sufficient sustain for the main part of that solo and he has to add extra notes making it sound too "busy" for me personally.
I have the same point of view about TOL on the OES tour, what is strongest about these versions is the great nostalgia that invades me, I like it, but I'm between the versions from 1982, the beginning of the LOG tour, the band used elements from the Local track Hero in the introduction, something very atmospheric, takes me to paradise, and the powerful versions of the BIA tour, without a doubt, the peak of this song
[/quote]
Thanks, I will listen to early LOG versions, can’t remember how they played it then.
[/quote]
You need to check out a special I did about the LOG tour 82/83 on my Instagram account, it was last month, it had a good response, some members of Dire Straits like Alan Clark, Hal Lindes, Terry William and Joop commented on my Facebook (the posts were simultaneously on my Facebook). In one of the topics I addressed this detail that occurred at a certain moment during the introduction of TOL live in 1982, something unique and of great beauty, exclusive to that period.
Here is part 1
https://www.instagram.com/p/CxehUbkuJdSFj6x3Fft57vgh9YE1epoCZmQ5eg0/?igshid=MXh4bzY5N3hheGRlZg==
Anyone interested in diving into this journey a little just look for @direstraitsuniverse :wave
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 10, 2023, 10:57:22 PM
Check out this little-known experience!
https://youtu.be/qEE6HvLAc_8?si=TMu3ts3lUXHomkkJ (https://youtu.be/qEE6HvLAc_8?si=TMu3ts3lUXHomkkJ)
Post by: jf9081 on November 10, 2023, 11:13:05 PM
Stereo on TV came with the NICAM standard in 1986, but stereo broadcasts were not commonplace until the 90s....
A pity they didn't have the full Dortmund show to release, I would have loved to have those great versions of DTTWN, Lions and News on disc. Now we have the videos on the official YT channel, which is good, albeit in mono.
A real pity that it seems that no stereo recording of the great OL tour exists. Maybe they have Werchter soundboard in good quality somewhere, with Angel of Mercy? On the available bootlegs the quality is not good, even if it is a soundboard, News is out of tune, that ruins it...
The reason both the OGWT and the RockPop Dortmund shows were only mono is that both were broadcasted on TV, and TV was mono back then (stereo came very soon after if I remember correcty) , so I would think that a stereo recording never existed of these.
I guess Werchter was also broadcasted on the radio which of course was stereo. Same with the German 'Rockpalast nights' then, mono on TV but with stereo simulcast radio (only true for the Saturday night life shows that were twice a year, the regular Sunday hour of Rockpalast at 7pm every week was never in stereo so no chance of a DS stereo Rockpalast recording some day :(
You mean the official releases of DS Rockpalast (the one on ZDF channel web site and the "Cologne" CD that is endorsed by DS official YT channel) are mono only? They sound stereo to me, maybe they went through some spacialization effect?
As for stereo radio broadcasts of the OL tour, we have the very incomplete Werchter, and the sound is atrocious for a sounboard, out of tune most of the time :(
I was also wondering now if Rockpalast (the one on the ZDF channel website) is mono or stereo. who knows more about it??
Post by: iorch82 on November 10, 2023, 11:44:28 PM
Bravo Guy Fletcher, incredible gift for the fans. Waiting for this to happen since 1993. Now for the circle to be closed, please find out these Paris recordings and give us a live PONO! My very last request I promise.
Post by: superval99 on November 11, 2023, 08:57:07 AM
The more I listen to TOL Rotterdam 92, the more I love it. It is not as good as Munich 91 I feel, but sjtill excellent.
When we say that for TOL the BIA is better... Hum... That may me be true for 1985, with the fantastic long intro and break with multiple musical quotes, but not of the shorter version of 1986 IMHO. Lots of people are fond of the short version of Sydney 86, but playing wise, tone wise, I find this TOL 92 much better. Even at least we have a touching intro and a break, unlike 1986.
Am I the only one to feel that way?
For me 1985 are unbeatable. It’s a victory lap of TOL. Would love to hear a pro recording from every tour. 1988 version with TW, EC and Pensa would be very interesting. Kind of mix between BIA and OES.
Agree. The 1985 versions are just so sweet sounding. No fast playing, allowing the song to breathe and the build up has Mark at his melodic best. Added to that you have a beautiful intro and excerpts from other songs, all played on that lovely Schecter Sunburst.
The OES version has, like most songs on that tour, too many instruments playing on it. When it comes to the solo, rather like the TR solo from that tour it's all about speed in the build up and when it comes to the famous part the energy's gone. The Pensa also doesn't have anywhere near sufficient sustain for the main part of that solo and he has to add extra notes making it sound too "busy" for me personally.
Totally agree with you, dmg! I much prefer the versions of TR and TOL from Alchemy and also the 1985 versions. OES versions are much too busy and fast and I really dislike the cheesy backing vocals on TOL, but I do understand many people love them.
Post by: Knopflerfan on November 11, 2023, 11:07:44 AM
TOL 92 is just gorgeous! My favourite version ever. Pensa sound is just superior. Am I the only one getting chills on the build up when the audience gets crazy over one of these characteristics licks? so much nostalgia.
Bravo Guy Fletcher, incredible gift for the fans. Waiting for this to happen since 1993. Now for the circle to be closed, please find out these Paris recordings and give us a live PONO! My very last request I promise.
I'm with you sir, TOL 1992 is far superior in my opinion to the Alchemy version....Love the speed in which this is played and like you the Pensa 'glides' through the song. Love the incidental riffs also...
Post by: herlock on November 11, 2023, 11:14:24 AM
The studio version is great - straight to the point, perfectly crafted, not one unnecessary note, crystal clear sound.
OL tour versions are great, with the added intro, Pick perfect drums, only Mark's guitar tone is too rough.
LOG tour versions are great, with added sax, longer intro, better tone and solo.
85 versions are great, enough said!
86 versions are great, short but well constructed (even if I don't like at Mark's guitar tone in Syndney and I find that there are too many unnecessary licks).
OES tour versions are great, romantic and touching, with impressive end solo, despite the Pensa tone that people don't like, but I do!
Too bad I have to stop there, I would have loved to comment on 1996-2019 versions of TOL...
Post by: Knopflerfan on November 11, 2023, 11:16:22 AM
Post by: Pierre on November 11, 2023, 12:13:46 PM
Well no....
Firstly on the new box set version of Fade To Black I can't hear any drums. I know I played brushes. I don't remember playing hi-hat and crosstick in the show. So it's all a mystery to me. On first listening I didn't hear any hi-hat or crosstick in Guy's mix, I didn't actually hear any drums.
It is very hard, often impossible to slide an instrument from one performance of a song to another. Firstly, things like sax audio (from a mic) also has elements of the onstage sound in the audio. Secondly, every night the song would be played at a slightly different tempo. You could copy a small phrase and slide it over, overdubbing it, but it can be a hassle and easier to just re-record it.
Lastly, it's funny that when I suggest nothing by Chris and Paul was fixed it is suggested they may have had their performances edited (copied from another show). Maybe just maybe what they played didn't ever NEED to be fixed.
Hi Chris, on his diary Guy explains that he discovered upon listening to the files that half of Fade To Black drums was missing from the reel surely because someone on the mixing desk forgot to turn on the line. So he had to replace the missing part with overdubs. Here is what he has to say about it:
"There were also instances where some mics weren’t even recorded, as in the case of ‘Sultans Of Swing’ 1992, where one of the drum overheads was mysteriously absent on every night. Obviously, an unnoticed error in the digital patching as the routing was clearly linked to our monitor system, which switched programs (and subsequent channel routing) for each song. In the case of ‘Fade To Black,’ the entire drum kit was muted; this must have been noticed on the night by the engineer, as they came back halfway through the song. I could imagine the frantic radio calls from the mobile truck to the stage crew to “unmute the bloody drums!” Sadly, this was the only night we played that song, so I needed to rebuild the drums from a few samples. Luckily, it wasn’t a complicated part, just a hi-hat and cross-stick. This is something that we would have done back in ’92 (using the Synclavier system), but the technology today makes it a whole lot easier."
Or maybe you've read this already
Post by: Chris W on November 11, 2023, 12:42:54 PM
I remembered playing brushes on Fade To Black, not crosstick and hi-hat.
On the OES album it is brushes.
Post by: Pierre on November 11, 2023, 03:28:15 PM
Post by: Chris W on November 11, 2023, 04:01:12 PM
Post by: Love Expresso on November 11, 2023, 04:05:27 PM
I agree with both of you and I am one of those who like the backing vocals very much and don't find them cheesy at all. Tunnel of Love was more epic and monumental in 1985 but it sounds much fresher in 1992. I was over the moon when I heard it live in Munich 1991. Was expecting Telegraph Road but we got a really great alternative instead. Remember back in those days without the world wide web there was no knowledge (at least to me) about set lists at all and Dire Straits in Bremen 1991 was my first real rock concert anyway!TOL 92 is just gorgeous! My favourite version ever. Pensa sound is just superior. Am I the only one getting chills on the build up when the audience gets crazy over one of these characteristics licks? so much nostalgia.
Bravo Guy Fletcher, incredible gift for the fans. Waiting for this to happen since 1993. Now for the circle to be closed, please find out these Paris recordings and give us a live PONO! My very last request I promise.
I'm with you sir, TOL 1992 is far superior in my opinion to the Alchemy version....Love the speed in which this is played and like you the Pensa 'glides' through the song. Love the incidental riffs also...
LE
Post by: Matchstickman on November 11, 2023, 05:00:42 PM
It is very hard, often impossible to slide an instrument from one performance of a song to another. Firstly, things like sax audio (from a mic) also has elements of the onstage sound in the audio. Secondly, every night the song would be played at a slightly different tempo. You could copy a small phrase and slide it over, overdubbing it, but it can be a hassle and easier to just re-record it.
Lastly, it's funny that when I suggest nothing by Chris and Paul was fixed it is suggested they may have had their performances edited (copied from another show). Maybe just maybe what they played didn't ever NEED to be fixed.
Chris mentioned the difficulty of using edits from various performances of the same song, and then to present it as one performance. But, as others have pointed out, this seems to be the case on Calling Elvis from On the Night. Would it be correct to assume that this was possible because there was a click track (or the effect of one) for the percussion intro before CE, when the band walked onto stage, which made the band play CE at the same tempo each night?
Post by: Chris W on November 12, 2023, 09:17:58 AM
I didn't say it was hard to edit whole songs, I said it would be hard to take a sax passage from one gig and slide it on to a different gig. That's because anything with a microphone also picks up the sounds around it. But yes, tempo is also an issue.
If it's editing whole parts of songs, 1) there are enough tempo changes in many DS songs that you could probably edit sections without anyone knowing. 2) we obviously tried to play songs at the agreed tempo at every show. 3) yes, I played Calling Elvis, Walk of Life and maybe (???) Heavy Fuel with a click in my ear. No other songs.
Post by: rmarques821 on November 12, 2023, 10:19:35 AM
Two things.Chris, how was the process of choosing the setlist for the tour? Did Mark ever talk to you about it, did you have any input, or was that 100% up to Mark's will?
I didn't say it was hard to edit whole songs, I said it would be hard to take a sax passage from one gig and slide it on to a different gig. That's because anything with a microphone also picks up the sounds around it. But yes, tempo is also an issue.
If it's editing whole parts of songs, 1) there are enough tempo changes in many DS songs that you could probably edit sections without anyone knowing. 2) we obviously tried to play songs at the agreed tempo at every show. 3) yes, I played Calling Elvis, Walk of Life and maybe (???) Heavy Fuel with a click in my ear. No other songs.
When you were listening to DS previous record, was there a song that stood out for its interesting drum parts? Or a song that you would have liked to perform live?
Post by: herlock on November 12, 2023, 12:16:18 PM
The more I listen to TOL Rotterdam 92, the more I love it. It is not as good as Munich 91 I feel, but sjtill excellent.
When we say that for TOL the BIA is better... Hum... That may me be true for 1985, with the fantastic long intro and break with multiple musical quotes, but not of the shorter version of 1986 IMHO. Lots of people are fond of the short version of Sydney 86, but playing wise, tone wise, I find this TOL 92 much better. Even at least we have a touching intro and a break, unlike 1986.
Am I the only one to feel that way?
For me 1985 are unbeatable. It’s a victory lap of TOL. Would love to hear a pro recording from every tour. 1988 version with TW, EC and Pensa would be very interesting. Kind of mix between BIA and OES.
Agree. The 1985 versions are just so sweet sounding. No fast playing, allowing the song to breathe and the build up has Mark at his melodic best. Added to that you have a beautiful intro and excerpts from other songs, all played on that lovely Schecter Sunburst.
The OES version has, like most songs on that tour, too many instruments playing on it. When it comes to the solo, rather like the TR solo from that tour it's all about speed in the build up and when it comes to the famous part the energy's gone. The Pensa also doesn't have anywhere near sufficient sustain for the main part of that solo and he has to add extra notes making it sound too "busy" for me personally.
As usual, a lot of truth, and a bit of exaggeration, dmg 🙂
OK, I decided to listen again to main versions of TOL, and here is my ranking:
1) 1985. We all agree here, hands-down the winner. I chose San Antonio, since we now have a quasi-official quality bootleg (endorsed by the official YT channel). The sweet intro, the wonderful break with the piano conclusion, the smart built up, the bombastic ending, the Schecter tone sweeten by overdrive... Yeah, this is the clear winner!
2) 1992. Yes, I put it at the #2 spot! (I chose Rotterdam, the only soundboard we have). Ok, not as epic as 1985, but a very sweet and interesting take. Very romantic intro and break, impressive solo albeit a bit too fast, less progressive, but very emotional, the Pensa tone is not that bad, soft but very audible... I know most don't agree, but I find it to be a very nice alternate take.
3) 1983. I chose the obvious, Alchemy, which has some very unique selling points: the unique sweet sax intro (linked to the outro of Portbollo Belle), the lack of cheesy backing vocals with the slight change in melody ("neon burning up above") so that Mark can be alone singing it, is actually a plus, the straight to the point yet energetic end solo, makes it a reference version.
4) 1980. I chose the sweet OGWT version on the Alchemy blu-Ray, very clear sound. I love it when I am in a "stripped-down" rather than "badass" mood (yes, it happens). This one is simple yet touching, and, unique selling points, the great Pick Withers on drums! I believe only he got it right, for the drums solo in the middle...
5) 1986. I chose the famous Sydney version. I don't know why it gets some much love. I find that it fails to reproduce the greatness of the previous year. No intro, no break, a strange "plastic" guitar tone, and an end solo that I fail to feel for... Some phrases going to nowhere, slow buildup, too many added chords that gives me an impression of "show off"... Not my cup of tea, even if this is TOL, so still wonderful!
Okay, now shoot me :)
Post by: dmg on November 12, 2023, 12:23:29 PM
The more I listen to TOL Rotterdam 92, the more I love it. It is not as good as Munich 91 I feel, but sjtill excellent.
When we say that for TOL the BIA is better... Hum... That may me be true for 1985, with the fantastic long intro and break with multiple musical quotes, but not of the shorter version of 1986 IMHO. Lots of people are fond of the short version of Sydney 86, but playing wise, tone wise, I find this TOL 92 much better. Even at least we have a touching intro and a break, unlike 1986.
Am I the only one to feel that way?
For me 1985 are unbeatable. It’s a victory lap of TOL. Would love to hear a pro recording from every tour. 1988 version with TW, EC and Pensa would be very interesting. Kind of mix between BIA and OES.
Agree. The 1985 versions are just so sweet sounding. No fast playing, allowing the song to breathe and the build up has Mark at his melodic best. Added to that you have a beautiful intro and excerpts from other songs, all played on that lovely Schecter Sunburst.
The OES version has, like most songs on that tour, too many instruments playing on it. When it comes to the solo, rather like the TR solo from that tour it's all about speed in the build up and when it comes to the famous part the energy's gone. The Pensa also doesn't have anywhere near sufficient sustain for the main part of that solo and he has to add extra notes making it sound too "busy" for me personally.
As usual, a lot of truth, and a bit of exaggeration, dmg 🙂
OK, I decided to listen again to main versions of TOL, and here is my ranking:
1) 1985. We all agree here, hands-down the winner. I chose San Antonio, since we now have a quasi-official quality bootleg (endorsed by the official YT channel). The sweet intro, the wonderful break with the piano conclusion, the smart built up, the bombastic ending, the Schecter tone sweeten by overdrive... Yeah, this is the clear winner!
2) 1992. Yes, I put it at the #2 spot! (I chose Rotterdam, the only soundboard we have). Ok, not as epic as 1985, but a very sweet and interesting take. Very romantic intro and break, impressive solo albeit a bit too fast, less progressive, but very emotional, the Pensa tone is not that bad, soft but very audible... I know most don't agree, but I find it to be a very nice alternate take.
3) 1983. I chose the obvious, Alchemy, which has some very unique selling points: the unique sweet sax intro (linked to the outro of Portbollo Belle), the lack of cheesy backing vocals with the slight change in melody ("neon burning up above") so that Mark can be alone singing it, is actually a plus, the straight to the point yet energetic end solo, makes it a reference version.
4) 1980. I chose the sweet OGWT version on the Alchemy blu-Ray, very clear sound. I love it when I am in a "stripped-down" rather than "badass" mood (yes, it happens). This one is simple yet touching, and, unique selling points, the great Pick Withers on drums! I believe only he got it right, for the drums solo in the middle...
5) 1986. I chose the famous Sydney version. I don't know why it gets some much love. I find that it fails to reproduce the greatness of the previous year. No intro, no break, a strange "plastic" guitar tone, and an end solo that I fail to feel for... Some phrases going to nowhere, slow buildup, too many added chords that gives me an impression of "show off"... Not my cup of tea, even if this is TOL, so still wonderful!
Okay, now shoot me :)
Agree 100%. There's just something about the Sydney broadcast. They sound tired and, as you say, the tone of the guitar isn't as nice as it was earlier in the tour.
Post by: Chris W on November 12, 2023, 12:59:52 PM
Chris, how was the process of choosing the setlist for the tour? Did Mark ever talk to you about it, did you have any input, or was that 100% up to Mark's will?
When you were listening to DS previous record, was there a song that stood out for its interesting drum parts? Or a song that you would have liked to perform live?
I'm pretty sure Mark decided the set list, maybe also discussing with John.
I always wanted to play 'So Far Away' - I think we played a couple of times and never again. I would have played 'When It Comes To You' at every show, but we rarely played it.
I like the groove songs from the last two albums, less the busier, tempo changing songs of the Pick era.
Post by: Chris W on November 12, 2023, 01:03:09 PM
There's just something about the Sydney broadcast. They sound tired and, as you say, the tone of the guitar isn't as nice as it was earlier in the tour.Funny, 'cos I was given the Sydney show audio to learn before we started rehearsals in 1991. Talking to the guys, they have extremely fond memories of the Sydney Entertainment Centre and I think they pretty much all see the final show as a magical evening, the highlight of the BIA tour. I certainly detected major in the air when I listened to it.
Post by: Silvertown on November 12, 2023, 01:50:42 PM
There's just something about the Sydney broadcast. They sound tired and, as you say, the tone of the guitar isn't as nice as it was earlier in the tour.Funny, 'cos I was given the Sydney show audio to learn before we started rehearsals in 1991. Talking to the guys, they have extremely fond memories of the Sydney Entertainment Centre and I think they pretty much all see the final show as a magical evening, the highlight of the BIA tour. I certainly detected major in the air when I listened to it.
Now the interesting question is did you get the audio from the broadcast or another recording? Bescause I think that the sound of Mark's guitar possibly wasn't live similar what we can here on the broadcast.
Post by: olazabalrok on November 12, 2023, 02:04:13 PM
As regarding Mark's voice on On the Night: whatever they did on the original release, they managed to move his voice up front in a way that it is often not on the newly mixed tracks, where his voice is sometimes buried in the mix and almost inaudible. What he is singing in the "new" bridge on I Think I Love You Too Much, well don't ask me ;D
Just one of the problems. While it’s nice to have these new tracks the mix on them is so hideous it takes the joy out of listening to them. I’ll just keep on listening to bootlegs. Guy even says he didn’t use any compression on the mix! Beats me :hmm Also the claim that the stage was very alive and he really couldn’t make the mix any drier, just listen to the On Every Planet bootleg, it’s pretty dry as can be. Also very good separation between instruments and the sources are great quality. It’s a live mix and mostly mono but still I’d much rather listen to it than the new mixes.
Post by: Robson on November 12, 2023, 03:00:49 PM
Post by: olazabalrok on November 12, 2023, 03:31:49 PM
I'm not an expert but why wouldn't I believe GF? Apart Industrial Disease, everything sounds great to me.
What I mean is that with that source material one should get better results. Again this is my opinion and lucky for you guys if you can enjoy the results :)
Post by: iorch82 on November 12, 2023, 04:29:20 PM
Chris, how was the process of choosing the setlist for the tour? Did Mark ever talk to you about it, did you have any input, or was that 100% up to Mark's will?
When you were listening to DS previous record, was there a song that stood out for its interesting drum parts? Or a song that you would have liked to perform live?
I'm pretty sure Mark decided the set list, maybe also discussing with John.
I always wanted to play 'So Far Away' - I think we played a couple of times and never again. I would have played 'When It Comes To You' at every show, but we rarely played it.
I like the groove songs from the last two albums, less the busier, tempo changing songs of the Pick era.
That's super interesting! I'm curious to know which three songs from the set were your absolute favorites, and, on the flip side, which didn't quite resonate with you as much? Did the band share any comments like 'Wow, we really nailed this XXX song tonight' or 'Maybe we should consider removing this one from the setlist'? Planet Of New Orleans was a brilliant song that got dropped halfway to never be played again. Any insights on this you can share Chris?
By the way, it's such a dream to know directly from an actual member of that huge DS formation.
Post by: Matchstickman on November 12, 2023, 04:56:46 PM
Chris, how was the process of choosing the setlist for the tour? Did Mark ever talk to you about it, did you have any input, or was that 100% up to Mark's will?
When you were listening to DS previous record, was there a song that stood out for its interesting drum parts? Or a song that you would have liked to perform live?
I'm pretty sure Mark decided the set list, maybe also discussing with John.
I always wanted to play 'So Far Away' - I think we played a couple of times and never again. I would have played 'When It Comes To You' at every show, but we rarely played it.
I like the groove songs from the last two albums, less the busier, tempo changing songs of the Pick era.
Both So Far Away and When it Comes to You were great songs on that tour and would have deserved more frequent playings. It's very nice to finally have the latter as part of the new box.
Post by: Matchstickman on November 12, 2023, 05:32:47 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ3BQuxj2KQ&list=PLC0G7CWTAlMq1xS8MIBi_Qx11I_T2BQGc&index=45 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ3BQuxj2KQ&list=PLC0G7CWTAlMq1xS8MIBi_Qx11I_T2BQGc&index=45)
Post by: KnopfleRick on November 12, 2023, 07:31:27 PM
When it comes to DS or MK this is the best places to be! Thanks for making the wait worthwhile. :thumbsup
Welcome to Chris Whitten! I'm glad to have you on board. :wave
Post by: jf9081 on November 12, 2023, 09:01:13 PM
Post by: Robson on November 12, 2023, 09:12:07 PM
Yes! I wrote about this much earlier.
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 12, 2023, 10:50:57 PM
Brunno, and others, as for the "Yeah, we're alright" line from Calling Elvis from On the Night, which seems to be from another night, it sounds very similar to the one from here: (52 seconds in)[url =https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ3BQuxj2KQ&list=PLC0G7CWTAlMq1xS8MIBi_Qx11I_T2BQGc&index=45]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ3BQuxj2KQ&list=PLC0G7CWTAlMq1xS8MIBi_Qx11I_T2BQGc&index=45 [/url]
Thank you very much for showing this link, I've known this video for a long time, I haven't seen it for a long time, but here he does exactly the same greeting that ended up on OTN and which doesn't correspond to any of the shows in Nimes or Rotterdam, so , being in Paris in April 1992 and we know that some of those nights were recorded in Paris, it is very likely that this is the origin of the greeting in CE on OTN. Furthermore, it is necessary to analyze the versions of CE from the nights in April 92, we can easily find certain licks that ended up in the "montage" of CE on OTN, which I now realize is a mix of excerpts in Paris, Nimes and Rotterdam.
I keep imagining the possibility of future releases of full shows that the band recorded in 1992, such as Paris, Nimes and Rotterdam, whether in audio, especially in video, which would be a true miracle, imagine being able to watch songs like When It Comes to on video You or Tunnel Of Love with that OTN video quality? What a luxury it would be...
Post by: jbaent on November 13, 2023, 06:07:06 AM
Chris, how was the process of choosing the setlist for the tour? Did Mark ever talk to you about it, did you have any input, or was that 100% up to Mark's will?
When you were listening to DS previous record, was there a song that stood out for its interesting drum parts? Or a song that you would have liked to perform live?
I'm pretty sure Mark decided the set list, maybe also discussing with John.
I always wanted to play 'So Far Away' - I think we played a couple of times and never again. I would have played 'When It Comes To You' at every show, but we rarely played it.
I like the groove songs from the last two albums, less the busier, tempo changing songs of the Pick era.
As far as bootleg evidences, we know "so far away" was played one of the nights in Birmingham at the very start of the tour and in Halifax, Canada (this one in video), some.months later. I know someone who attended Sheffield, in the UK, also at the start of the tour that told me "so far away" was played at his show but we don't have any bootleg evidence.
There are many evidence of "when it comes to you" versions played live in both audio and video from the OTN tour, between the songs that were not in the usual setlist, it was one of the most regularly played songs of the tour probably with "you and your friend", I agree with Chris it would had been great to have it in more shows as it's a great song to play.
One of my favourite was "Planet of New Orleans", a pity that none of the nights Guy had to work with had a version of it.
According to setlist.fm statistics, which has data from concerts that the setlist is known: https://www.setlist.fm/stats/songs/dire-straits-4bd67bce.html
"Planet of New Orleans" was played 67 times
"When it comes to you" was played 22 times
"You and your friend" was played 20 times
"Fade to black" was played 31 times
"So far away" was played 2 times - https://www.setlist.fm/stats/songs/dire-straits-4bd67bce.html?songid=1bd761b4
Songs played by year:
1991: https://www.setlist.fm/stats/dire-straits-4bd67bce.html?year=1991
1992: https://www.setlist.fm/stats/dire-straits-4bd67bce.html?year=1992
Post by: Chris W on November 13, 2023, 09:26:03 AM
Now the interesting question is did you get the audio from the broadcast or another recording? Bescause I think that the sound of Mark's guitar possibly wasn't live similar what we can here on the broadcast.
Probably the TV audio.
Post by: Chris W on November 13, 2023, 09:32:34 AM
According to setlist.fm statistics, which has data from concerts that the setlist is known: https://www.setlist.fm/stats/songs/dire-straits-4bd67bce.html
"Planet of New Orleans" was played 67 times
"When it comes to you" was played 22 times
"You and your friend" was played 20 times
"Fade to black" was played 31 times
"So far away" was played 2 times - https://www.setlist.fm/stats/songs/dire-straits-4bd67bce.html?songid=1bd761b4
By the way, Set List.com is wrong. I haven't been through it in absolute detail, but when I was looking for something else I found errors, I can't remember all of them. One thing I remember was that the number of shows on the tour did not match the number of times they said we played 'Calling Elvis'.
Many songs were played at every show, so if Set List doesn't match it to the number of shows, they are wrong.
Calling Elvis was every show, Walk of Life, Sultans, Heavy Fuel - and more, were played at every show.
Post by: Chris W on November 13, 2023, 09:35:39 AM
Brunno, and others,
I can't imagine why anyone would add "yeah you alright" from one show to another. My recollection is that Mark shouted something (it varied) during the intro of 'Calling Elvis' many times on the tour.
Post by: Chris W on November 13, 2023, 09:41:27 AM
Planet Of New Orleans was a brilliant song that got dropped halfway to never be played again.
When we played Planet it seemed long and slow. At the end the audience didn't absolutely go wild with appreciation, so it was probably dropped in favour of a song that went down better with the audience. No one in the band would tell Mark to drop a song from the set.
There were long groups of shows that were like legs - so UK/Europe 1, then Australia/ New Zealand, then North America etc...
At the beginning of each leg we usually had a day or two of rehearsal, usually at the first show venue. So that was when Mark changed the set around and new songs were rehearsed. So by and large, songs weren't changed mid-leg, they changed for each group of shows (legs) on the tour.
Post by: JKMark on November 13, 2023, 10:10:48 AM
Brunno, and others, as for the "Yeah, we're alright" line from Calling Elvis from On the Night, which seems to be from another night, it sounds very similar to the one from here: (52 seconds in)[url =https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ3BQuxj2KQ&list=PLC0G7CWTAlMq1xS8MIBi_Qx11I_T2BQGc&index=45]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ3BQuxj2KQ&list=PLC0G7CWTAlMq1xS8MIBi_Qx11I_T2BQGc&index=45 [/url]
Thank you very much for showing this link, I've known this video for a long time, I haven't seen it for a long time, but here he does exactly the same greeting that ended up on OTN and which doesn't correspond to any of the shows in Nimes or Rotterdam, so , being in Paris in April 1992 and we know that some of those nights were recorded in Paris, it is very likely that this is the origin of the greeting in CE on OTN. Furthermore, it is necessary to analyze the versions of CE from the nights in April 92, we can easily find certain licks that ended up in the "montage" of CE on OTN, which I now realize is a mix of excerpts in Paris, Nimes and Rotterdam.
I keep imagining the possibility of future releases of full shows that the band recorded in 1992, such as Paris, Nimes and Rotterdam, whether in audio, especially in video, which would be a true miracle, imagine being able to watch songs like When It Comes to on video You or Tunnel Of Love with that OTN video quality? What a luxury it would be...
Yes, indeed. They could release new songs on YT channel. Same with other tours / videos. Complete BIA concert on video is no brainer. Honestly I’ll take anything from them. Yesterday I listened to Rainbow gig, what a gem. Performance and sound quality are exceptional. 2-3 shows per tour is kind of optimum, ekhm, optimistic scenario ;)
Post by: Chris W on November 13, 2023, 10:28:04 AM
I can't see any reason why Mark would want to release multiple live shows, especially unedited and unmixed.
As an artist you want to be represented by your best work.
The Sydney BIA show and the Basel OES show were never assumed to be widely repeat viewed or even VHS recorded. This was before the internet and Youtube. The uploads infringe copyright and so do any bootlegs.
OK, as musicians we've learned to live with modern taping, both VHS and now cell phones, but it does mean some musicians who are afraid of being analysed for mistakes will play safe every show, instead of going for it.
Post by: dustyvalentino on November 13, 2023, 10:35:59 AM
I can't see any reason why Mark would want to release multiple live shows, especially unedited and unmixed.
I can think of one...
But seriously though, MK has been selling digital downloads of all his live shows for more than 10 years now. I guess they are mixed to an extent but they are available within days so not with any great deal of scrutiny. He seems relaxed about it, and it was another revenue stream which has become ever more important since people stopped buying physical product.
Post by: jbaent on November 13, 2023, 11:31:35 AM
According to setlist.fm statistics, which has data from concerts that the setlist is known: https://www.setlist.fm/stats/songs/dire-straits-4bd67bce.html
"Planet of New Orleans" was played 67 times
"When it comes to you" was played 22 times
"You and your friend" was played 20 times
"Fade to black" was played 31 times
"So far away" was played 2 times - https://www.setlist.fm/stats/songs/dire-straits-4bd67bce.html?songid=1bd761b4
By the way, Set List.com is wrong. I haven't been through it in absolute detail, but when I was looking for something else I found errors, I can't remember all of them. One thing I remember was that the number of shows on the tour did not match the number of times they said we played 'Calling Elvis'.
Many songs were played at every show, so if Set List doesn't match it to the number of shows, they are wrong.
Calling Elvis was every show, Walk of Life, Sultans, Heavy Fuel - and more, were played at every show.
Yes, one should take the data in setlist.fm considerating that the information is provided by fans, and there are two types of sets, the ones introduced by people who have recordings in audio and or video, some of them might be incomplete recordings as well, and also the ones introduced by people who attended the show, doesn't have any recording but kind of remember which songs were played, obviously some songs can be forgotten when introducing them to the site, and some might be wrong. Also don't forget that there are no setlist for any single concert, only the ones that people had introduced the sets because they have the recordings or they thing they remember the songs they heard.
The site doesn't provide 100% accurate information but an aproximation.
Post by: Chris W on November 13, 2023, 11:40:42 AM
I can't see any reason why Mark would want to release multiple live shows, especially unedited and unmixed.
I can think of one...
Which is?
Post by: dustyvalentino on November 13, 2023, 11:42:07 AM
I can't see any reason why Mark would want to release multiple live shows, especially unedited and unmixed.
I can think of one...
Which is?
Money.
Post by: Chris W on November 13, 2023, 11:44:23 AM
But seriously though, MK has been selling digital downloads of all his live shows for more than 10 years now.
Probably to direct fans away from unofficial recordings. It gives him some control.
On the money - he is a multi-millionaire who most likely by 1992 never needed to work another day in his life.
He's making more money (sitting at home) from his publishing (all those classic hit songs) than most of us will ever earn in a lifetime.
Post by: Chris W on November 13, 2023, 11:47:29 AM
Money.
See above.
It ain't going to be about the money. Artists are driven to make art and perform it. That's why he has kept making albums and touring. He never needed to work again by at least the mid-90's.
Post by: Love Expresso on November 13, 2023, 12:05:08 PM
LE
Post by: jbaent on November 13, 2023, 12:07:01 PM
Money.
See above.
It ain't going to be about the money. Artists are driven to make art and perform it. That's why he has kept making albums and touring. He never needed to work again by at least the mid-90's.
As Dusty says, Mark Knopfler has been selling his live concerts, mixed but more or less quickly as some were available just when you were out of the gig (2010 tour), others the day after (2013) and in others one week or less after the concert.
As far as I remember, from all the MK solo tours he sold digital downloads of his concerts in 2005 (some of them), 2010 (almost all the European), 2013, 2015, 2019 (all of them except some venues that didn't allow the recordings or asked for too high fees).
Post by: Chris W on November 13, 2023, 12:07:56 PM
Of course MK is rich af, and I guess he already was in the early 80's. But he has a superior studio to pay plus all this high level touring with a private jet and an expensive band had to be very tightly calculated.
He doesn't need the studio, the private jet or the band. I am 100% sure when the tour is planned, paying for the hotels, flights and band members is calculated in to the tour costings, not based on selling live show downloads afterwards.
Post by: Chris W on November 13, 2023, 12:11:31 PM
As Dusty says, Mark Knopfler has been selling his live concerts, mixed but more or less quickly as some were available just when you were out of the gig (2010 tour), others the day after (2013) and in others one week or less after the concert.
It would be to drive fans away from unofficial recordings, which he has no control over. It would not touch the sides in terms of his touring expenses or million dollar lifestyle. The fact is, many artists ask fans not to film the shows on cell phones. Back in the day artists tried very hard to block bootleg recording and sales.
Since the internet some artists have just decided - if you can't beat them, join them.
Post by: dustyvalentino on November 13, 2023, 12:20:59 PM
Of course MK is rich af, and I guess he already was in the early 80's. But he has a superior studio to pay plus all this high level touring with a private jet and an expensive band had to be very tightly calculated.
He doesn't need the studio, the private jet or the band. I am 100% sure when the tour is planned, paying for the hotels, flights and band members is calculated in to the tour costings, not based on selling live show downloads afterwards.
Yes, but you know how these things go, even wealthy people get used to a certain lifestyle which needs to be funded, multiple houses, state of the art recording studio etc. It appears to be the case that since MK apparently retired from touring in 2019 there has been an effort to promote more DS stuff for sale (this box set, other merch on the website, toy guitars etc), maybe all this stuff is for artistic reasons but maybe not.
Post by: Chris W on November 13, 2023, 12:28:48 PM
Yes, but you know how these things go, even wealthy people get used to a certain lifestyle which needs to be funded, multiple houses, state of the art recording studio etc.
You know if you've spent any time with people in this category. More often than not it's to demonstrate how continuingly successful you are to your peers.
McCartney never needs to tour or release another record. He loves filling huge stadiums however, and he will be absolutely beaming from ear to ear that the new single is number one. It is more about bragging rights than filling the bank balance. How does an 80 year old spend $1.2 billion?
You can bet if he bumps into Paul Simon or Elton John he'll mention the number one single however.
Mark would want to find things for Guy to do. I'm sure John is very happy to top up his bank accounts too, although by normal standards John never needs to work again either.
Post by: Love Expresso on November 13, 2023, 12:34:40 PM
I once overhead Paul Crockford before the first RAH Show 2010 saying something like MK would be like an oil tanker, very heavy and slowly to change. That was related to the start of live downloads after the show which began in May 2010.
LE
Post by: dustyvalentino on November 13, 2023, 12:38:40 PM
Yes, but you know how these things go, even wealthy people get used to a certain lifestyle which needs to be funded, multiple houses, state of the art recording studio etc.
You know if you've spent any time with people in this category. More often than not it's to demonstrate how continuingly successful you are to your peers.
McCartney never needs to tour or release another record. He loves filling huge stadiums however, and he will be absolutely beaming from ear to ear that the new single is number one. It is more about bragging rights than filling the bank balance. How does an 80 year old spend $1.2 billion?
You can bet if he bumps into Paul Simon or Elton John he'll mention the number one single however.
Mark would want to find things for Guy to do. I'm sure John is very happy to top up his bank accounts too, although by normal standards John never needs to work again either.
I think the key phrase here is "by normal standards".
It's a great point though and MK is quite interesting in this sense. He is almost unique in that he walked away from the very vehichle that would have allowed him to maintain the kind of profile you talk about. He quietly walked away from the Dire Straits brand.
Post by: jbaent on November 13, 2023, 01:07:22 PM
As Dusty says, Mark Knopfler has been selling his live concerts, mixed but more or less quickly as some were available just when you were out of the gig (2010 tour), others the day after (2013) and in others one week or less after the concert.
It would be to drive fans away from unofficial recordings, which he has no control over. It would not touch the sides in terms of his touring expenses or million dollar lifestyle. The fact is, many artists ask fans not to film the shows on cell phones. Back in the day artists tried very hard to block bootleg recording and sales.
Since the internet some artists have just decided - if you can't beat them, join them.
And in my opinion, it's the more clever thing you can do it as an artist.
And as a fan, me, and probably most of us would shout "Take my money!"
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 13, 2023, 02:12:58 PM
Brunno, and others,
I can't imagine why anyone would add "yeah you alright" from one show to another. My recollection is that Mark shouted something (it varied) during the intro of 'Calling Elvis' many times on the tour.
I could assume that as it is not an experience of a particular show in its entirety but rather a compilation of different shows, then the very nature of OTN's proposal leaves room for them to put together the show with the intention of bringing a somewhat "cinematic" product, in the sense that a lot of production was done, so it's likely that those involved in the production had the idea of giving this "face" to the show, creating layers like that greeting in CE's introduction that doesn't match any of the shows in Nimes and Rotterdam that were used for OTN. It is clear to me that the song CE on OTN was built in the studio, they used parts from at least 3 shows and built what we can see and hear in this version on OTN, this does not give the listener a real experience, in a certain sense it is a fiction , does it have artistic value? Certainly, but I would give it a greater historical value if it were a version of a single show, a more honest, less "Hollywood" experience.
Post by: Chris W on November 13, 2023, 02:15:16 PM
I think the key phrase here is "by normal standards".
I was talking about you....me....the man and woman in the street. The amount of money people can expect to earn in a lifetime. Mark probably earns that in a calendar year sitting at home, just from his hit songs.
Not saying he doesn't deserve it. I'm just disagreeing that he needs downloads of live shows to keep his finances ticking over.
Post by: dustyvalentino on November 13, 2023, 02:21:43 PM
I think the key phrase here is "by normal standards".
I was talking about you....me....the man and woman in the street. The amount of money people can expect to earn in a lifetime. Mark probably earns that in a calendar year sitting at home, just from his hit songs.
Not saying he doesn't deserve it. I'm just disagreeing that he needs downloads of live shows to keep his finances ticking over.
Yes, I get what you were meaning.
At least MK actually wrote the songs, there are plenty of people living off copyrights who only have spurious connections to the original authors.
In any case, as a professional musician it makes sense to maximise all potential revenue streams unless there are negatives that outweigh the benefits.
Post by: Chris W on November 13, 2023, 04:11:43 PM
Post by: jbaent on November 13, 2023, 05:06:51 PM
BTW, I just randomly clicked on the first live bootleg audio from the OES tour that came up on my Youtube (San Diego) and Mark asks the crowd "You alright" during the 'Elvis' intro. From my memory he probably shouted that at most shows.
Also in many recordings, specially in Europe, you can hear MK telling the audience "please don't push" during Walk of life.
Post by: Marnix on November 13, 2023, 05:44:23 PM
BTW, I just randomly clicked on the first live bootleg audio from the OES tour that came up on my Youtube (San Diego) and Mark asks the crowd "You alright" during the 'Elvis' intro. From my memory he probably shouted that at most shows.
Also in many recordings, specially in Europe, you can hear MK telling the audience "please don't push" during Walk of life.
The “please don’t push” quote was because some people in crowd were pushing in the front of stage and some people get stuck and almost fainted
Post by: Matchstickman on November 13, 2023, 10:05:24 PM
BTW, I just randomly clicked on the first live bootleg audio from the OES tour that came up on my Youtube (San Diego) and Mark asks the crowd "You alright" during the 'Elvis' intro. From my memory he probably shouted that at most shows.
Brunno claims that Mark did not say this in Rotterdam or Nimes when they shot On the Night. If so, the line must be from another night (Paris seems likely). Note that we cannot see Mark in the OTN video when he says this. It must have been a nightmare to edit the Calling Elvis video.
Post by: Matchstickman on November 13, 2023, 10:46:00 PM
Brunno, and others,
I can't imagine why anyone would add "yeah you alright" from one show to another. My recollection is that Mark shouted something (it varied) during the intro of 'Calling Elvis' many times on the tour.
I could assume that as it is not an experience of a particular show in its entirety but rather a compilation of different shows, then the very nature of OTN's proposal leaves room for them to put together the show with the intention of bringing a somewhat "cinematic" product, in the sense that a lot of production was done, so it's likely that those involved in the production had the idea of giving this "face" to the show, creating layers like that greeting in CE's introduction that doesn't match any of the shows in Nimes and Rotterdam that were used for OTN. It is clear to me that the song CE on OTN was built in the studio, they used parts from at least 3 shows and built what we can see and hear in this version on OTN, this does not give the listener a real experience, in a certain sense it is a fiction , does it have artistic value? Certainly, but I would give it a greater historical value if it were a version of a single show, a more honest, less "Hollywood" experience.
You pose interesting questions. The concept of CE as a montage was made possible by the click track, as Mark could pick and choose licks from various nights. But this means that the "OTN version of CE" is not a live performance in the normal sense. And for the video, they must have made sure to edit around this.
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 14, 2023, 03:40:46 AM
BTW, I just randomly clicked on the first live bootleg audio from the OES tour that came up on my Youtube (San Diego) and Mark asks the crowd "You alright" during the 'Elvis' intro. From my memory he probably shouted that at most shows.
Brunno claims that Mark did not say this in Rotterdam or Nimes when they shot On the Night. If so, the line must be from another night (Paris seems likely). Note that we cannot see Mark in the OTN video when he says this. It must have been a nightmare to edit the Calling Elvis video.
Exactly that, thank you for bringing more light to the aspect I'm trying to show, it's a subtlety, but it makes all the difference to show that there is a lot of CE editing in OTN.
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 14, 2023, 03:51:45 AM
Brunno, and others,
I can't imagine why anyone would add "yeah you alright" from one show to another. My recollection is that Mark shouted something (it varied) during the intro of 'Calling Elvis' many times on the tour.
I could assume that as it is not an experience of a particular show in its entirety but rather a compilation of different shows, then the very nature of OTN's proposal leaves room for them to put together the show with the intention of bringing a somewhat "cinematic" product, in the sense that a lot of production was done, so it's likely that those involved in the production had the idea of giving this "face" to the show, creating layers like that greeting in CE's introduction that doesn't match any of the shows in Nimes and Rotterdam that were used for OTN. It is clear to me that the song CE on OTN was built in the studio, they used parts from at least 3 shows and built what we can see and hear in this version on OTN, this does not give the listener a real experience, in a certain sense it is a fiction , does it have artistic value? Certainly, but I would give it a greater historical value if it were a version of a single show, a more honest, less "Hollywood" experience.
You pose interesting questions. The concept of CE as a montage was made possible by the click track, as Mark could pick and choose licks from various nights. But this means that the "OTN version of CE" is not a live performance in the normal sense. And for the video, they must have made sure to edit around this.
Exactly, my dear, I can imagine Mark's selection process by listening to the audio recordings of the shows that were recorded and informing how he wanted the final product to look. Once the audio was defined, with the sections desired, certainly by Mark Knopfler, he probably started the process of editing the video for this song, which is why it is the song in the video that appears most in scenes from different scenarios, starting in Rotterdam, (pedestal with two microphones ) and suddenly scenes of the band appear in Nimes (a pedestal with a microphone), so it must have been a very ingenious job to edit this video, in the end, there are two edits, the audio and the video, then synchronize video and audio and do their best to look like a recording of a real performance, it's no surprise that all the musicians are wearing the same clothes.
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 14, 2023, 03:59:17 AM
Post by: Chris W on November 14, 2023, 08:50:45 AM
Brunno claims that Mark did not say this in Rotterdam or Nimes when they shot On the Night. If so, the line must be from another night (Paris seems likely). Note that we cannot see Mark in the OTN video when he says this. It must have been a nightmare to edit the Calling Elvis video.
First, there is no way you would slide Mark saying "you alright" from another performance as it is inconsequential, it isn't important to the song or the show.
I have no idea IF Calling Elvis is heavily edited. It is a very easy song to play, apart from the fast guitar licks towards the end. If you are overdubbing and fixing things, there is no need to edit the performance, you just overdub in the studio. The drum part is super simple and shady, so why would you edit sections of the song in order to fix drums. I just don't see why this sing would need to be heavily edited.
Post by: iorch82 on November 14, 2023, 09:47:34 AM
Brunno, and others,
I can't imagine why anyone would add "yeah you alright" from one show to another. My recollection is that Mark shouted something (it varied) during the intro of 'Calling Elvis' many times on the tour.
I could assume that as it is not an experience of a particular show in its entirety but rather a compilation of different shows, then the very nature of OTN's proposal leaves room for them to put together the show with the intention of bringing a somewhat "cinematic" product, in the sense that a lot of production was done, so it's likely that those involved in the production had the idea of giving this "face" to the show, creating layers like that greeting in CE's introduction that doesn't match any of the shows in Nimes and Rotterdam that were used for OTN. It is clear to me that the song CE on OTN was built in the studio, they used parts from at least 3 shows and built what we can see and hear in this version on OTN, this does not give the listener a real experience, in a certain sense it is a fiction , does it have artistic value? Certainly, but I would give it a greater historical value if it were a version of a single show, a more honest, less "Hollywood" experience.
You pose interesting questions. The concept of CE as a montage was made possible by the click track, as Mark could pick and choose licks from various nights. But this means that the "OTN version of CE" is not a live performance in the normal sense. And for the video, they must have made sure to edit around this.
Exactly, my dear, I can imagine Mark's selection process by listening to the audio recordings of the shows that were recorded and informing how he wanted the final product to look. Once the audio was defined, with the sections desired, certainly by Mark Knopfler, he probably started the process of editing the video for this song, which is why it is the song in the video that appears most in scenes from different scenarios, starting in Rotterdam, (pedestal with two microphones ) and suddenly scenes of the band appear in Nimes (a pedestal with a microphone), so it must have been a very ingenious job to edit this video, in the end, there are two edits, the audio and the video, then synchronize video and audio and do their best to look like a recording of a real performance, it's no surprise that all the musicians are wearing the same clothes.
I am having a hard time imagining MK going through that process of cherry picking every single guitar lick from several recordings after a 1.5+ year tour he was absolutely sick of.
Post by: peterromer on November 14, 2023, 10:04:35 AM
A show is a fleeting moment in time, not designed to be repeat listened and analysed. That's why many bands hated bootlegs back in the day, and many artists don't want people to record shows on cell phones.
I can't see any reason why Mark would want to release multiple live shows, especially unedited and unmixed.
As an artist you want to be represented by your best work.
The Sydney BIA show and the Basel OES show were never assumed to be widely repeat viewed or even VHS recorded. This was before the internet and Youtube. The uploads infringe copyright and so do any bootlegs.
OK, as musicians we've learned to live with modern taping, both VHS and now cell phones, but it does mean some musicians who are afraid of being analysed for mistakes will play safe every show, instead of going for it.
@Chris: Dont you think MK´s ego regarding us as fans and his stop in doing live concerts, could bring him to a state where he would release more live albums/concerts, maybe from the BIA era or others ? potentially remixed by Guy, as a sort of "compensation" as he is longer doing it anymore.
Maybe its just me that would like to think that he actually cares.
Post by: Robson on November 14, 2023, 10:40:55 AM
Brunno, and others,
I can't imagine why anyone would add "yeah you alright" from one show to another. My recollection is that Mark shouted something (it varied) during the intro of 'Calling Elvis' many times on the tour.
I could assume that as it is not an experience of a particular show in its entirety but rather a compilation of different shows, then the very nature of OTN's proposal leaves room for them to put together the show with the intention of bringing a somewhat "cinematic" product, in the sense that a lot of production was done, so it's likely that those involved in the production had the idea of giving this "face" to the show, creating layers like that greeting in CE's introduction that doesn't match any of the shows in Nimes and Rotterdam that were used for OTN. It is clear to me that the song CE on OTN was built in the studio, they used parts from at least 3 shows and built what we can see and hear in this version on OTN, this does not give the listener a real experience, in a certain sense it is a fiction , does it have artistic value? Certainly, but I would give it a greater historical value if it were a version of a single show, a more honest, less "Hollywood" experience.
You pose interesting questions. The concept of CE as a montage was made possible by the click track, as Mark could pick and choose licks from various nights. But this means that the "OTN version of CE" is not a live performance in the normal sense. And for the video, they must have made sure to edit around this.
Exactly, my dear, I can imagine Mark's selection process by listening to the audio recordings of the shows that were recorded and informing how he wanted the final product to look. Once the audio was defined, with the sections desired, certainly by Mark Knopfler, he probably started the process of editing the video for this song, which is why it is the song in the video that appears most in scenes from different scenarios, starting in Rotterdam, (pedestal with two microphones ) and suddenly scenes of the band appear in Nimes (a pedestal with a microphone), so it must have been a very ingenious job to edit this video, in the end, there are two edits, the audio and the video, then synchronize video and audio and do their best to look like a recording of a real performance, it's no surprise that all the musicians are wearing the same clothes.
I am having a hard time imagining MK going through that process of cherry picking every single guitar lick from several recordings after a 1.5+ year tour he was absolutely sick of.
This is interesting too. It is often said that Mark was bored and in a bad mood during every street tour. But no one forced him to go on such a large and long tour. It wasn't the first time he had done this. He wanted this.
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 14, 2023, 11:15:40 AM
Brunno claims that Mark did not say this in Rotterdam or Nimes when they shot On the Night. If so, the line must be from another night (Paris seems likely). Note that we cannot see Mark in the OTN video when he says this. It must have been a nightmare to edit the Calling Elvis video.
First, there is no way you would slide Mark saying "you alright" from another performance as it is inconsequential, it isn't important to the song or the show.
I have no idea IF Calling Elvis is heavily edited. It is a very easy song to play, apart from the fast guitar licks towards the end. If you are overdubbing and fixing things, there is no need to edit the performance, you just overdub in the studio. The drum part is super simple and shady, so why would you edit sections of the song in order to fix drums. I just don't see why this sing would need to be heavily edited.
Dear Chris, look, I'm referring to CE music as it is organized on OTN, it just doesn't work naturally as a song played in one venue, it's a real mix, there are some cuts, that's a fact, gone Mark Who arranged it or not, I don't know, but I know that if you listen to the recordings of CE on the dates in Rotterdam and Nimes in full, you will see like me that it is not the same as what is on OTN.
Another point, the overdubs parts were notably done on Mark Knopfler's guitar and his voice, I didn't notice any editing done on the drums, I didn't even mention that, the whole thing was put together to recreate Mark Knopfler's parts and create a completely new based on this type of edition. Who was responsible, I don't know, but I can imagine Mark giving the go-ahead, perhaps it was a suggestion from someone in the production team and he accepted it, be it Neil or Guy, in fact it was a super version, in the end, I wanted CE to were live thus presented to the world through an official live release, OTN
Post by: Silvertown on November 14, 2023, 11:41:30 AM
Brunno claims that Mark did not say this in Rotterdam or Nimes when they shot On the Night. If so, the line must be from another night (Paris seems likely). Note that we cannot see Mark in the OTN video when he says this. It must have been a nightmare to edit the Calling Elvis video.
First, there is no way you would slide Mark saying "you alright" from another performance as it is inconsequential, it isn't important to the song or the show.
I have no idea IF Calling Elvis is heavily edited. It is a very easy song to play, apart from the fast guitar licks towards the end. If you are overdubbing and fixing things, there is no need to edit the performance, you just overdub in the studio. The drum part is super simple and shady, so why would you edit sections of the song in order to fix drums. I just don't see why this sing would need to be heavily edited.
Sorry a slight off-topic Chris, but do you find more challenging or enjoyable to play for an audience of 20000 compared to 60 in a small pub? I guess that the stage sound (at least before in-ear monitors) might be even too much or some times too empty or too much in the stadium gigs?
Post by: Chris W on November 14, 2023, 05:07:53 PM
Dear Chris, look, I'm referring to CE music as it is organized on OTN, it just doesn't work naturally as a song played in one venue, it's a real mix, there are some cuts, that's a fact, gone Mark Who arranged it or not, I don't know, but I know that if you listen to the recordings of CE on the dates in Rotterdam and Nimes in full, you will see like me that it is not the same as what is on OTN.
I have listened to it in the past and it never struck me as edited. If it was edited it would be whole sections, like intro, verse, chorus etc....
Yes there was a click track, but it's still difficult to edit sections of a live recording, because people are sometimes playing different notes, at different volumes etc... It is immediately jarring, which it has never sounded jarring to me.
Post by: Matchstickman on November 14, 2023, 06:02:16 PM
Dear Chris, look, I'm referring to CE music as it is organized on OTN, it just doesn't work naturally as a song played in one venue, it's a real mix, there are some cuts, that's a fact, gone Mark Who arranged it or not, I don't know, but I know that if you listen to the recordings of CE on the dates in Rotterdam and Nimes in full, you will see like me that it is not the same as what is on OTN.
I have listened to it in the past and it never struck me as edited. If it was edited it would be whole sections, like intro, verse, chorus etc....
Yes there was a click track, but it's still difficult to edit sections of a live recording, because people are sometimes playing different notes, at different volumes etc... It is immediately jarring, which it has never sounded jarring to me.
The "alright" adds to the atmosphere. As Mark barely talks to the audience any given night, such comments add something. And, again, if there are licks and vocal lines in OTN not existing on the bootlegs from the same nights, then they must have been overdubbed from another night, or recorded afterwards. Using recordings from other nights seems more likely.
Post by: Chris W on November 15, 2023, 09:15:24 AM
Post by: Love Expresso on November 15, 2023, 02:26:48 PM
LE
Post by: Dutchessy on November 15, 2023, 05:39:49 PM
Seems he was in the fabulous poodles with Bobby Valentino
https://decibelreport.com/interviews-1/the-fabulous-poodles-tony-de-meur-and-bobby-valentino-on-the-top-dogs-return
Nice short story about Dire Straits first gig as well form 11.40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-L24vJh8N8&t=1075s
Post by: Rolo on November 15, 2023, 07:59:21 PM
Overdubbing in the studio is completely standard practice in live recordings. So it is much MORE likely that licks that don't exist in a bootleg we're recorded afterwards during mix down. It is actually much easier to record a new lick, then try and find something that works from another show and edit it, while retaining anything that was good in the other instruments.
Dear, Chris.
THANK YOU for this answer.
I had some discussions at this forum and some people simply cannot imagine MK making overdubs on a studio for the OTN record simply because MK is like a god for some here.
I told there is a very common practice to re-do some parts on studio for live-recordings.
Some here thinks there was impossible at the time to bring all MK gear and recreate the tone from that record.
Some said that with the 90's technology this was impossible.
Some cannot imagine how was a big studio is and the GEAR that comes with it.
Post by: Matchstickman on November 15, 2023, 10:49:08 PM
Overdubbing in the studio is completely standard practice in live recordings. So it is much MORE likely that licks that don't exist in a bootleg we're recorded afterwards during mix down. It is actually much easier to record a new lick, then try and find something that works from another show and edit it, while retaining anything that was good in the other instruments.
Chris, you are probably right in general, but Brunno, I think, claims that guitar licks can be traced to other specific nights. Brunno, if you give us a couple of examples then we could all check and see.
As for the "Yeah, we're all right" line, it seems hard to imagine Mark vocally overdubbing such a line later. But the main point is that it has been added. And if the microphones look different in various shots, then the video would seem to be from different nights.
Post by: dustyvalentino on November 15, 2023, 11:40:33 PM
Post by: Chris W on November 16, 2023, 08:07:46 AM
Chris, you are probably right in general, but Brunno, I think, claims that guitar licks can be traced to other specific nights.
Mark played the same licks in some songs every night of the tour. So if he played it on anther show, he can also play it in the studio when mixing the live album.
Post by: 2manyguitars on November 16, 2023, 11:12:13 AM
Chris, you are probably right in general, but Brunno, I think, claims that guitar licks can be traced to other specific nights.
Mark played the same licks in some songs every night of the tour. So if he played it on anther show, he can also play it in the studio when mixing the live album.
Guys answer....
"I don’t believe we did any overdubs although my recollection of it is blurred, probably due to the immense task of dealing with/editing 96 tracks of audio WITHOUT the use of a modern DAW. I am looking at some multitracks from that tour now and so far I haven’t seen any evidence of overdubs. We did of course take different sections from different nights."
Post by: Chris W on November 16, 2023, 12:07:25 PM
99.99% of live albums have overdub fixes. If a guitar solo is amazing apart from one bar, they go in and fix that bar on the album mix.
If John plays one wrong bass note, you don't edit in a whole new section from a different show, you just overdub the correct bass note - it takes 5 minutes to do.
I very highly doubt nothing was fixed by Mark while they mixed OTN.
Post by: Rolo on November 16, 2023, 12:38:15 PM
Hmm, the people I know said overdubs were done.
99.99% of live albums have overdub fixes. If a guitar solo is amazing apart from one bar, they go in and fix that bar on the album mix.
If John plays one wrong bass note, you don't edit in a whole new section from a different show, you just overdub the correct bass note - it takes 5 minutes to do.
I very highly doubt nothing was fixed by Mark while they mixed OTN.
Yes!
I am not criticizing Guy Fletcher, but he is expert to tell a lot without sayng anything.
He is a good lier and keeps the "magic" about the band alive.
Thank You, Chris.
Post by: 2manyguitars on November 16, 2023, 12:58:21 PM
Hmm, the people I know said overdubs were done.
99.99% of live albums have overdub fixes. If a guitar solo is amazing apart from one bar, they go in and fix that bar on the album mix.
If John plays one wrong bass note, you don't edit in a whole new section from a different show, you just overdub the correct bass note - it takes 5 minutes to do.
I very highly doubt nothing was fixed by Mark while they mixed OTN.
Yes!
I am not criticizing Guy Fletcher, but he is expert to tell a lot without sayng anything.
He is a good lier and keeps the "magic" about the band alive.
Thank You, Chris.
It really amuses and amazes me that you wont take the word of the person involved in its creation, one of the actual people in the control room during its creation.
But of course you're entitled to your opinion....
Post by: quizzaciously on November 16, 2023, 01:26:16 PM
Hmm, the people I know said overdubs were done.
99.99% of live albums have overdub fixes. If a guitar solo is amazing apart from one bar, they go in and fix that bar on the album mix.
If John plays one wrong bass note, you don't edit in a whole new section from a different show, you just overdub the correct bass note - it takes 5 minutes to do.
I very highly doubt nothing was fixed by Mark while they mixed OTN.
Yes!
I am not criticizing Guy Fletcher, but he is expert to tell a lot without sayng anything.
He is a good lier and keeps the "magic" about the band alive.
Thank You, Chris.
It really amuses and amazes me that you wont take the word of the person involved in its creation, one of the actual people in the control room during its creation.
But of course you're entitled to your opinion....
With all honesty, one may also think after 3 months of rehearsals and 8 months of touring by the time of the On The Night recordings or whatever, nearly a year of playing nearly the same set of songs, you won't need to sit in the studio for hours replaying and overdubbing stuff, so I trust Guy Fletcher's on this.
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 16, 2023, 02:12:15 PM
Hmm, the people I know said overdubs were done.
99.99% of live albums have overdub fixes. If a guitar solo is amazing apart from one bar, they go in and fix that bar on the album mix.
If John plays one wrong bass note, you don't edit in a whole new section from a different show, you just overdub the correct bass note - it takes 5 minutes to do.
I very highly doubt nothing was fixed by Mark while they mixed OTN.
Yes!
I am not criticizing Guy Fletcher, but he is expert to tell a lot without sayng anything.
He is a good lier and keeps the "magic" about the band alive.
Thank You, Chris.
I don't rule out the possibility that overdubs were done in the studio when they were creating OTN in 1993, Mark may not have been satisfied with some guitar licks he did on one of the nights used and created something that he deemed appropriate in the studio, in order to correct . One thing is a fact, the CE recording on OTN has guitar licks from different nights and I remember that when I was analyzing the bootlegs of the shows used for OTN, (Nimes and Rotterdam), I also noticed that there were licks that were not in any from these shows, that is, I identified the licks that were used to put together this track and realized that there were some passages that could only have been created in the studio.
I'll try to identify it again, this is a bit of work, but it's good to demystify things and try to understand how what was released was actually done.
Post by: dmg on November 16, 2023, 02:20:03 PM
Hmm, the people I know said overdubs were done.
99.99% of live albums have overdub fixes. If a guitar solo is amazing apart from one bar, they go in and fix that bar on the album mix.
If John plays one wrong bass note, you don't edit in a whole new section from a different show, you just overdub the correct bass note - it takes 5 minutes to do.
I very highly doubt nothing was fixed by Mark while they mixed OTN.
Yes!
I am not criticizing Guy Fletcher, but he is expert to tell a lot without sayng anything.
He is a good lier and keeps the "magic" about the band alive.
Thank You, Chris.
I don't rule out the possibility that overdubs were done in the studio when they were creating OTN in 1993, Mark may not have been satisfied with some guitar licks he did on one of the nights used and created something that he deemed appropriate in the studio, in order to correct . One thing is a fact, the CE recording on OTN has guitar licks from different nights and I remember that when I was analyzing the bootlegs of the shows used for OTN, (Nimes and Rotterdam), I also noticed that there were licks that were not in any from these shows, that is, I identified the licks that were used to put together this track and realized that there were some passages that could only have been created in the studio.
I'll try to identify it again, this is a bit of work, but it's good to demystify things and try to understand how what was released was actually done.
Bear in mind we don't have ALL the shows available to us on bootleg. It may come from a night we don't have.
I think personally we're dissecting this a little too much. I'm all for finding out which track is from which night - that's quite interesting. However, dissection to this degree doesn't really do any good.
Post by: Rolo on November 16, 2023, 03:00:14 PM
It really amuses and amazes me that you wont take the word of the person involved in its creation, one of the actual people in the control room during its creation.
But of course you're entitled to your opinion....
The situation here is that all musicians can make overdubs, except MK and Cia.
What matters its the record/the product itself.
Not matters how many overdubs they do.
It's a very common practice. Even for MK
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 16, 2023, 03:13:20 PM
I made comparisons between the OTN CL with the Audio CL of Bootlegs Nimes FRA 21.05.92 and Rotterdam, Netherlands 5/31/1992, to complement my research and reach this conclusion.
So here is some data, (a lot of audio is from Nimes FRA 21. 05.92, but a lot of other parts are a lot of unknown mixes.)
The closest versions to the CE version of OTN are Nimes FRA 21.05.92 and Rotterdam, Netherlands 5/31/1992, having these bootlegs as a starting point, just analyze and compare, it is possible to identify the licks and notice that there are licks that they were probably made in the studio, or, it was taken from some other show, but, I point out that I analyzed all the bootleg recordings from Nimes and Rotterdam in May 1992 and only the dates I mentioned above have licks and vocal performances that are on OTN, with the exception of Mark's greeting with a "hey, Alright!" at the beginning of the song, that was taken from some other show, probably Paris in April 92.
Here is the link to the article I wrote.
https://universodirestraits.blogspot.com/2021/06/calling-elvis-on-night-performance.html?m=0
Post by: 2manyguitars on November 16, 2023, 04:17:07 PM
It really amuses and amazes me that you wont take the word of the person involved in its creation, one of the actual people in the control room during its creation.
But of course you're entitled to your opinion....
The situation here is that all musicians can make overdubs, except MK and Cia.
What matters its the record/the product itself.
Not matters how many overdubs they do.
It's a very common practice. Even for MK
This has got absolutely nothing to do with MK himself. Its simple logic.
The person who was partly responsible for putting together OTN says it is highly unlikely that there were any overdubs. Simple. I choose Guy as a better source of information about this than you Rolo, sorry.
This is not some blind devotion to MK, if Guy had a different answer, or if new info comes to light in the future then I'll re-evaluate. Until then Occams razor suggests that the person who was actually responsible for the recordings might know a bit more than any of us here.
I am more tha happy to be proven wrong.....
Post by: Pierre on November 16, 2023, 05:58:39 PM
I can't imagine the Fade to Black we got now would have made the cut back in 1993. Now it's history so it can be published with all its mistakes and rushed licks and we still love it.
When you listen to any Dire straits bootleg, there's always, here and there a small mistake by one or the other, and it's fine, but when you listen to On the Night (the 1993 version), there's nothing, it's a long blissfull experience.
And before anyone think I'm being critical of the Box set I am not all that, I simply point something I believe to be true. On the night was overdubbed, probably in very small parts but it was, I read it, and the source may as well be MK himself in his usual matter-of-fact way: "we did some overdubs in the studio..." but I'll have to find my source back
Post by: Matchstickman on November 16, 2023, 06:05:29 PM
If the shots are from different nights, and the playing matches the shots, then the audio must be from different nights also, or overdubbed to match the footage to the T.
Post by: Matchstickman on November 16, 2023, 06:08:21 PM
When it Comes to You
I think I love You Too Much
It's very nice to get all of the soloing on these, but also to hear the rhythm guitars on ITILYTM.
Post by: Rolo on November 16, 2023, 06:19:30 PM
And before anyone think I'm being critical of the Box set I am not all that, I simply point something I believe to be true. On the night was overdubbed, probably in very small parts but it was, I read it, and the source may as well be MK himself in his usual matter-of-fact way: "we did some overdubs in the studio..." but I'll have to find my source back
Thank you
Post by: dmg on November 16, 2023, 07:35:32 PM
In 2021 I published on my blog about this aspect of CE on OTN, I ended the article by writing: The audio is basically a tremendous edit, a lot of mixes here, a lot of audio is from Nimes FRA 21. 05.92, but a lot of other parts are a lot of unknown mixes.
I made comparisons between the OTN CL with the Audio CL of Bootlegs Nimes FRA 21.05.92 and Rotterdam, Netherlands 5/31/1992, to complement my research and reach this conclusion.
So here is some data, (a lot of audio is from Nimes FRA 21. 05.92, but a lot of other parts are a lot of unknown mixes.)
The closest versions to the CE version of OTN are Nimes FRA 21.05.92 and Rotterdam, Netherlands 5/31/1992, having these bootlegs as a starting point, just analyze and compare, it is possible to identify the licks and notice that there are licks that they were probably made in the studio, or, it was taken from some other show, but, I point out that I analyzed all the bootleg recordings from Nimes and Rotterdam in May 1992 and only the dates I mentioned above have licks and vocal performances that are on OTN, with the exception of Mark's greeting with a "hey, Alright!" at the beginning of the song, that was taken from some other show, probably Paris in April 92.
Here is the link to the article I wrote.
https://universodirestraits.blogspot.com/2021/06/calling-elvis-on-night-performance.html?m=0
There aren't bootlegs circulating of the 1st or final shows in Rotterdam so sound could come from either of these performances.
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 16, 2023, 08:17:02 PM
In 2021 I published on my blog about this aspect of CE on OTN, I ended the article by writing: The audio is basically a tremendous edit, a lot of mixes here, a lot of audio is from Nimes FRA 21. 05.92, but a lot of other parts are a lot of unknown mixes.
I made comparisons between the OTN CL with the Audio CL of Bootlegs Nimes FRA 21.05.92 and Rotterdam, Netherlands 5/31/1992, to complement my research and reach this conclusion.
So here is some data, (a lot of audio is from Nimes FRA 21. 05.92, but a lot of other parts are a lot of unknown mixes.)
The closest versions to the CE version of OTN are Nimes FRA 21.05.92 and Rotterdam, Netherlands 5/31/1992, having these bootlegs as a starting point, just analyze and compare, it is possible to identify the licks and notice that there are licks that they were probably made in the studio, or, it was taken from some other show, but, I point out that I analyzed all the bootleg recordings from Nimes and Rotterdam in May 1992 and only the dates I mentioned above have licks and vocal performances that are on OTN, with the exception of Mark's greeting with a "hey, Alright!" at the beginning of the song, that was taken from some other show, probably Paris in April 92.
Here is the link to the article I wrote.
https://universodirestraits.blogspot.com/2021/06/calling-elvis-on-night-performance.html?m=0
There aren't bootlegs circulating of the 1st or final shows in Rotterdam so sound could come from either of these performances.
That's why I mentioned, "that there are licks that were probably made in the studio, or were taken from some other show", in this case, it could be from these two shows in Rotterdam that we don't have recordings, but that the band.
Post by: JF on November 16, 2023, 08:32:16 PM
I choose Guy as a better source of information about this
Until then Occams razor suggests that the person who was actually responsible for the recordings might know a bit more than any of us here.
in theory yes. But in practice no.
there are several examples in DS/MK history where Guy and/or Mark made mistakes in interviews about dates, song titles, gig venues, guitars used in studio (Mark saying the 54 on trawlerman for example), etc... Guy didn't even know about the Alchemy date, etc...
They have for more than 40 years now, in so mnay records, so many tours, so many gigs.... how can they rememebr eveything exactly ? It's impossible.
And they aren't as mad as us :lol ;D
So they don't care about such details like we do. When a record is finished, they d'ont even think about it after that... remember, they are always looking forward... :lol :lol :lol
Post by: 2manyguitars on November 16, 2023, 09:28:18 PM
I choose Guy as a better source of information about this
Until then Occams razor suggests that the person who was actually responsible for the recordings might know a bit more than any of us here.
in theory yes. But in practice no.
there are several examples in DS/MK history where Guy and/or Mark made mistakes in interviews about dates, song titles, gig venues, guitars used in studio (Mark saying the 54 on trawlerman for example), etc... Guy didn't even know about the Alchemy date, etc...
They have for more than 40 years now, in so mnay records, so many tours, so many gigs.... how can they rememebr eveything exactly ? It's impossible.
And they aren't as mad as us :lol ;D
So they don't care about such details like we do. When a record is finished, they d'ont even think about it after that... remember, they are always looking forward... :lol :lol :lol
Forgetting what Guitar you used on a song, or the particular eq settings on an amp is a totally different thing from having studio time booked at £1000 plus an hour, sitting in front of the recording desk, setting up amps, and trying to recreate said live sound. Totally different. That process wouldn't have been simple either, it would have involved several days of studio time, remember this is pre BG.
This is becoming conspiracy theory level stuff.
What do we know? Guy says almost certainly no overdubs. Its a cobbled together performance from numerous nights. MK was sick of. DS.
I rest my case
;D
Post by: jonboy71 on November 16, 2023, 09:46:47 PM
Post by: herlock on November 16, 2023, 09:49:52 PM
Has Guy said if there are any multitracks for any Brothers In Arms shows? I'm hoping a show from that tour was held back for some other BIA release.He said "very few"... One would be good enough!
Even if there are no multitracks, there is the PRE-FM mix for Houston, and POST-FM for Wembley, San Antonio, Cleveland, Sydney. That would be good enough... But does Guy have the rights and sources overs these shows?
Post by: drparkinson on November 16, 2023, 10:05:24 PM
One thing that was implied in the pre tour publicity was that the tour was expected to last longer than it did-for example two years was mentioned in the timeline in the initial tour programme: "23 AUGUST 1991 ..... SOMETIME IN 1993 - Dire Straits begin their world tour with five dates at The Point in Dublin, expecting 250-300 more to follow over the next 2 years, with audiences adding up to maybe 7 million."
I remember some perception at the time that even though the tour was successful that perhaps DS had overestimated the demand and had to reduce the initial touring plans - for example an interview with Pete Townshend (who we know liked DS) from Musician magazine in July 93 where he talks about the change in audience demand and touring climate at the time for big bands such as the Who and the Stones and uses DS as an example "I think it was a great humiliation for Dire Straits to put aside 18 months for international touring and then find that they were only required for eight and a half weeks. Because they're as vital as they ever were" (if you want to see the full context, this is the only copy I could find online: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/SNwAAOSwhyJjnfv-/s-l1600.jpg)
But when you look at the figures DS did end up playing to 7 million people as originally estimated, so maybe the length of the tour and number of dates were reduced when larger ticket sales were achieved by playing stadiums in the summer of 1992?
I was curious as to whether there were actually concrete plans for a 2 year tour that was then reduced or whether that timeframe was just abstract based on initial expectations? Can you remember at the time you signed up for the tour was it for a set period (such as the dates as played) or was it more open ended? And whether there were any dates or territories that had been discussed or pencilled in beyond the final show in October 1992 that were then dropped? thanks!
Post by: dmg on November 16, 2023, 11:07:41 PM
In 2021 I published on my blog about this aspect of CE on OTN, I ended the article by writing: The audio is basically a tremendous edit, a lot of mixes here, a lot of audio is from Nimes FRA 21. 05.92, but a lot of other parts are a lot of unknown mixes.
I made comparisons between the OTN CL with the Audio CL of Bootlegs Nimes FRA 21.05.92 and Rotterdam, Netherlands 5/31/1992, to complement my research and reach this conclusion.
So here is some data, (a lot of audio is from Nimes FRA 21. 05.92, but a lot of other parts are a lot of unknown mixes.)
The closest versions to the CE version of OTN are Nimes FRA 21.05.92 and Rotterdam, Netherlands 5/31/1992, having these bootlegs as a starting point, just analyze and compare, it is possible to identify the licks and notice that there are licks that they were probably made in the studio, or, it was taken from some other show, but, I point out that I analyzed all the bootleg recordings from Nimes and Rotterdam in May 1992 and only the dates I mentioned above have licks and vocal performances that are on OTN, with the exception of Mark's greeting with a "hey, Alright!" at the beginning of the song, that was taken from some other show, probably Paris in April 92.
Here is the link to the article I wrote.
https://universodirestraits.blogspot.com/2021/06/calling-elvis-on-night-performance.html?m=0
There aren't bootlegs circulating of the 1st or final shows in Rotterdam so sound could come from either of these performances.
That's why I mentioned, "that there are licks that were probably made in the studio, or were taken from some other show", in this case, it could be from these two shows in Rotterdam that we don't have recordings, but that the band.
Apologies Brunno, I must've missed that part. This has turned into a rather long discussion! :)
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 17, 2023, 01:28:38 AM
In 2021 I published on my blog about this aspect of CE on OTN, I ended the article by writing: The audio is basically a tremendous edit, a lot of mixes here, a lot of audio is from Nimes FRA 21. 05.92, but a lot of other parts are a lot of unknown mixes.
I made comparisons between the OTN CL with the Audio CL of Bootlegs Nimes FRA 21.05.92 and Rotterdam, Netherlands 5/31/1992, to complement my research and reach this conclusion.
So here is some data, (a lot of audio is from Nimes FRA 21. 05.92, but a lot of other parts are a lot of unknown mixes.)
The closest versions to the CE version of OTN are Nimes FRA 21.05.92 and Rotterdam, Netherlands 5/31/1992, having these bootlegs as a starting point, just analyze and compare, it is possible to identify the licks and notice that there are licks that they were probably made in the studio, or, it was taken from some other show, but, I point out that I analyzed all the bootleg recordings from Nimes and Rotterdam in May 1992 and only the dates I mentioned above have licks and vocal performances that are on OTN, with the exception of Mark's greeting with a "hey, Alright!" at the beginning of the song, that was taken from some other show, probably Paris in April 92.
Here is the link to the article I wrote.
https://universodirestraits.blogspot.com/2021/06/calling-elvis-on-night-performance.html?m=0
There aren't bootlegs circulating of the 1st or final shows in Rotterdam so sound could come from either of these performances.
That's why I mentioned, "that there are licks that were probably made in the studio, or were taken from some other show", in this case, it could be from these two shows in Rotterdam that we don't have recordings, but that the band.
Apologies Brunno, I must've missed that part. This has turned into a rather long discussion! :)
I know this topic is going on a lot, we can continue this debate in this exclusive topic about it, which was created this year:
https://www.amarkintime.org/forum/index.php?topic=8364.165
:wave
Post by: olazabalrok on November 17, 2023, 07:56:24 AM
But when you look at the figures DS did end up playing to 7 million people as originally estimated, so maybe the length of the tour and number of dates were reduced when larger ticket sales were achieved by playing stadiums in the summer of 1992?
I was curious as to whether there were actually concrete plans for a 2 year tour that was then reduced or whether that timeframe was just abstract based on initial expectations? Can you remember at the time you signed up for the tour was it for a set period (such as the dates as played) or was it more open ended? And whether there were any dates or territories that had been discussed or pencilled in beyond the final show in October 1992 that were then dropped? thanks!
Wasn’t the total ticket sales more or less half of that, around 3,5 million? I think it’s been well reported that there was supposed to be a South America leg after the European shows but the plans were cancelled as everyone was so tired and it would’ve been a financial risk to do it.
Post by: Chris W on November 17, 2023, 08:44:52 AM
It really amuses and amazes me that you wont take the word of the person involved in its creation, one of the actual people in the control room during its creation.
But of course you're entitled to your opinion....
I was at least in part involved in it's creation. 20+ years ago, before this forum even existed, I was being told there was a lot of repair work done in the studio when mixing 'On The Night'.
The other fact is that 99.99% of live albums are fixed with overdubs during mix down. Why is it that in 1992 'On The Night' would be different from all other live albums?
Post by: Chris W on November 17, 2023, 08:53:06 AM
in theory yes. But in practice no.
Forgetting what Guitar you used on a song, or the particular eq settings on an amp is a totally different thing from having studio time booked at £1000 plus an hour, sitting in front of the recording desk, setting up amps, and trying to recreate said live sound. Totally different. That process wouldn't have been simple either, it would have involved several days of studio time, remember this is pre BG.
This is becoming conspiracy theory level stuff.
Finding and editing together sections of songs from different shows is more complex and takes longer than just fixing a few notes in the bass, or the guitar. So your theory about studio time is wrong.
Like I said, fixing any mistakes on a live recording is absolutely 100% standard practice in the music industry. It is counted as part of the final mix.
What every one does (and has done for decades) is record several shows (in this case 2 shows at Nimes and 2 shows at Rotterdam). Then you listen through and first choose the best overall version of each song, then you go through again and see if there are any better guitar solos, or vocal verses (for example) than the main song you have chosen. Then once all that is edited together you go through and fix any wrong bass notes, or out of tune guitar chords etc, etc...
That is how ALL live albums are made.
Post by: Chris W on November 17, 2023, 09:00:25 AM
Can you remember at the time you signed up for the tour was it for a set period (such as the dates as played) or was it more open ended? And whether there were any dates or territories that had been discussed or pencilled in beyond the final show in October 1992 that were then dropped? thanks!
When I signed up it was going to be just over a year on the road (not including rehearsals). The tour was planned and all musicians contracted then the first Gulf war happened. DS couldn't get international insurance due to uncertainty with security etc. So everything was postponed for six months.
I never heard about any South American leg until way after the tour had ended. We were never scheduled to tour Japan either, which I thought was strange. However the reality is, the tour was super successful by anyone's standards. The last six months we played to huge sell out crowds in outdoor stadiums across Europe. We could have easily kept going around Europe from October 92 to the end of the year, but I think Mark and John felt like they had had enough.
Post by: jbaent on November 17, 2023, 09:09:28 AM
Can you remember at the time you signed up for the tour was it for a set period (such as the dates as played) or was it more open ended? And whether there were any dates or territories that had been discussed or pencilled in beyond the final show in October 1992 that were then dropped? thanks!
When I signed up it was going to be just over a year on the road (not including rehearsals). The tour was planned and all musicians contracted then the first Gulf war happened. DS couldn't get international insurance due to uncertainty with security etc. So everything was postponed for six months.
I never heard about any South American leg until way after the tour had ended. We were never scheduled to tour Japan either, which I thought was strange. However the reality is, the tour was super successful by anyone's standards. The last six months we played to huge sell out crowds in outdoor stadiums across Europe. We could have easily kept going around Europe from October 92 to the end of the year, but I think Mark and John felt like they had had enough.
There are pictures of a tour bus with Eastern Europe and South American included, but because of the economical situation in 1992 they decided not to do it
(https://www.oneverybootleg.nl/bus_OES.jpg)
(https://www.oneverybootleg.nl/OESbus_countries.jpg)
Post by: jbaent on November 17, 2023, 09:12:48 AM
Can you remember at the time you signed up for the tour was it for a set period (such as the dates as played) or was it more open ended? And whether there were any dates or territories that had been discussed or pencilled in beyond the final show in October 1992 that were then dropped? thanks!
When I signed up it was going to be just over a year on the road (not including rehearsals). The tour was planned and all musicians contracted then the first Gulf war happened. DS couldn't get international insurance due to uncertainty with security etc. So everything was postponed for six months.
I never heard about any South American leg until way after the tour had ended. We were never scheduled to tour Japan either, which I thought was strange. However the reality is, the tour was super successful by anyone's standards. The last six months we played to huge sell out crowds in outdoor stadiums across Europe. We could have easily kept going around Europe from October 92 to the end of the year, but I think Mark and John felt like they had had enough.
More information about it:
(https://www.oneverybootleg.nl/fax19031992edbicknell.jpg)
And in this interview Ed Bicknell said the tour was a disaster in economical terms in Australia and New Zealand
(https://www.oneverybootleg.nl/VOX1992.jpg)
Post by: Chris W on November 17, 2023, 09:29:31 AM
When we arrived in Australia there were gaps in the schedule. They were listed as days off, with 'potential show' as a foot note.
Mostly those shows never materialised, however the tour of Oz/NZ was still extremely successful by other similar bands standards. it just wasn't as big as they had initially hoped. It is very expensive to take ANY major tour to the somewhat isolated Australia. Also, the fact we ended up with quite a few days off would have been terrible for the accounts. So I'm not surprised Ed says it was a financial disaster, but we still played a lot of shows to sell out crowds.
There was an element of OES tour that was making money. At one point we played 13 shows in a row, in different cities, without a day off.
After the first couple of legs the lighting rig got smaller.
Everyone was exhausted after more than a year. Mark had been in a bad mood most of the year, so if going to S America didn't seem profitable I am absolutely not surprised it never happened. In my memory I was never planning to go to S America, whether it was listed on a Phillipps bus or not.
No show that was in my itinerary over the entire tour was ever cancelled. So some dates or legs that were potentially planned never happened.
Post by: Chris W on November 17, 2023, 09:37:54 AM
I'm sure the band lost money in Oz/NZ and again in North America. Both tours were probably over ambitious in the planning.
However.......Mark and John did extremely well financially from that tour. As I said, the final six months or so we played a lot of huge, completely sold out football stadium shows across Europe. And could have continued with that for a few months more.
Post by: jbaent on November 17, 2023, 10:06:52 AM
There were no shows planned in MY itinerary that never happened.
When we arrived in Australia there were gaps in the schedule. They were listed as days off, with 'potential show' as a foot note.
Mostly those shows never materialised, however the tour of Oz/NZ was still extremely successful by other similar bands standards. it just wasn't as big as they had initially hoped. It is very expensive to take ANY major tour to the somewhat isolated Australia. Also, the fact we ended up with quite a few days off would have been terrible for the accounts. So I'm not surprised Ed says it was a financial disaster, but we still played a lot of shows to sell out crowds.
There was an element of OES tour that was making money. At one point we played 13 shows in a row, in different cities, without a day off.
After the first couple of legs the lighting rig got smaller.
Everyone was exhausted after more than a year. Mark had been in a bad mood most of the year, so if going to S America didn't seem profitable I am absolutely not surprised it never happened. In my memory I was never planning to go to S America, whether it was listed on a Phillipps bus or not.
No show that was in my itinerary over the entire tour was ever cancelled. So some dates or legs that were potentially planned never happened.
That's something I always wondered, how from the management were working with the possibilities of extend the tour to Eastern Europe, South America or even a second visit to North America, if the musicians hired for that tour didn't know about it?
There was any clause in the contract that allowed the management to extend the tour and automatically your contracts?
Post by: jbaent on November 17, 2023, 10:08:17 AM
Just read John Illslsey's comments in the article posted above.
I'm sure the band lost money in Oz/NZ and again in North America. Both tours were probably over ambitious in the planning.
However.......Mark and John did extremely well financially from that tour. As I said, the final six months or so we played a lot of huge, completely sold out football stadium shows across Europe. And could have continued with that for a few months more.
Most of us were under the impression that most of the Stadiums part of the tour was planned in order to recover all the money they lost in Ozz and NA, as it's known that MK didn't like playing in stadiums.
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 17, 2023, 11:00:20 AM
in theory yes. But in practice no.
Forgetting what Guitar you used on a song, or the particular eq settings on an amp is a totally different thing from having studio time booked at £1000 plus an hour, sitting in front of the recording desk, setting up amps, and trying to recreate said live sound. Totally different. That process wouldn't have been simple either, it would have involved several days of studio time, remember this is pre BG.
This is becoming conspiracy theory level stuff.
Finding and editing together sections of songs from different shows is more complex and takes longer than just fixing a few notes in the bass, or the guitar. So your theory about studio time is wrong.
Like I said, fixing any mistakes on a live recording is absolutely 100% standard practice in the music industry. It is counted as part of the final mix.
What every one does (and has done for decades) is record several shows (in this case 2 shows at Nimes and 2 shows at Rotterdam). Then you listen through and first choose the best overall version of each song, then you go through again and see if there are any better guitar solos, or vocal verses (for example) than the main song you have chosen. Then once all that is edited together you go through and fix any wrong bass notes, or out of tune guitar chords etc, etc...
That is how ALL live albums are made.
Thank you very much for bringing these clarifications, Chris, here you summarize exactly how I always perceived the preparation of the OTN, this further supports my research, as what I showed goes in the same direction that you brought us in this comment. His words carry significant weight from someone who has rich experience recording albums, as well as being a member of the band during this period.
It's great to have your participation here on the forum, gratitude!!!!
Post by: herlock on November 17, 2023, 11:06:12 AM
Post by: qjamesfloyd on November 17, 2023, 11:20:38 AM
Post by: Chris W on November 17, 2023, 11:31:21 AM
Most of us were under the impression that most of the Stadiums part of the tour was planned in order to recover all the money they lost in Ozz and NA, as it's known that MK didn't like playing in stadiums.
No that's not correct. These kind of tours are planned many months in advance.
At that time most major artist tours followed the same pattern. Start in large indoor arenas, then spend the warmer months playing outdoor stadiums.
The alternate to 60,000-80,000 stadiums is playing 20,000 seater arenas for several nights in a row. That IS uneconomical because you are paying the band, the crew and extra nights in hotels etc.
From what I saw, Mark disliked the whole rock and roll hoopla, which is no different when playing Madison Square Garden/Sydney Entertainment Centre to a large stadium like Rotterdam.
Post by: Chris W on November 17, 2023, 11:36:34 AM
It may be standard practice to make overdubs in live albums, but this is a radical departure from Mark's philosophy. 9 years before, Alchemy was proudly advertised as a live album that does not contain overdubs of any kind, and Mark stated "we just wanted to record a concert". Which I believe it the way it should be. Or at least, record several shows, and pick the best rendition of each song, but don't touch the song itself. If you can't find one you are not ashamed of, something is wrong with your ability as an artist.
This is the kind of over the top commentary that spoils discussions. It's funny, I've read post after post criticising Phil palmer's 'mistake', or saying Mark's solo on a certain song was too fast, blurred. Then in the next breath people want to celebrate the honesty, 'mistakes' and all.
It is NOT about being 'ashamed' of a performance. That is just ridiculous. If you have recorded a fantastic performance of a song and the bass was out of tune (becuase a storm blew in and the temp on stage dropped - hypothetical example), or mark played a blinding solo but fluffed one of his signature moments towards`rds the end - you fix it....everybody fixes it....this is how live albums are made by everyone, which is why most artists do not like audience members recording their shows.
Post by: Love Expresso on November 17, 2023, 11:41:32 AM
LE
Post by: Chris W on November 17, 2023, 11:42:39 AM
This whole over dubbing and live mistakes thing is normal, whether it is a good idea to overdub or not is down to personal opinion.
Yes.
Recording in the studio and playing live are two separate things. Making a studio album is about accuracy, being as good as you can possibly be.
Playing live is about energy and often presentation. The audience doesn't want to hear the CD reproduced 100% accurately. Nor do they want to see the band with their heads down, standing still, (tongue out of corner of mouth) concentrating like crazy to avoid any 'mistake'.
In my experience at least - you go for it. Trying to play something (in the moment) you have never played before and it often doesn't come off. That isn't a mistake, it's about creativity, enthusiasm. The next night or the night after that you might nail that new bit. You have to make 'mistakes' to grow and improve. The studio guitar sound on 'Money For Nothing' was a mistake.
Post by: Chris W on November 17, 2023, 11:43:49 AM
I am really astonished how patient you are, Chris!
I don't mind.
I find a lot of times people have no insight to some realities. It's exactly the same on drummer forums that I post on.
Post by: Love Expresso on November 17, 2023, 11:45:57 AM
LE
Post by: herlock on November 17, 2023, 11:47:39 AM
I'm a bit saddened by your agressivity, Chris.It may be standard practice to make overdubs in live albums, but this is a radical departure from Mark's philosophy. 9 years before, Alchemy was proudly advertised as a live album that does not contain overdubs of any kind, and Mark stated "we just wanted to record a concert". Which I believe it the way it should be. Or at least, record several shows, and pick the best rendition of each song, but don't touch the song itself. If you can't find one you are not ashamed of, something is wrong with your ability as an artist.
This is the kind of over the top commentary that spoils discussions. It's funny, I've read post after post criticising Phil palmer's 'mistake', or saying Mark's solo on a certain song was too fast, blurred. Then in the next breath people want to celebrate the honesty, 'mistakes' and all.
It is NOT about being 'ashamed' of a performance. That is just ridiculous. If you have recorded a fantastic performance of a song and the bass was out of tune (becuase a storm blew in and the temp on stage dropped - hypothetical example), or mark played a blinding solo but fluffed one of his signature moments towards`rds the end - you fix it....everybody fixes it....this is how live albums are made by everyone, which is why most artists do not like audience members recording their shows.
I've just expressed an opinion that I think I am entitled to, just like you are entitled to yours. Besides, it was Mark's opinion in 1984 when he released Alchemy, so it must not be that a ridiculous opinion.
In what way am I "spoiling the discussion" by expressing this opinion?
Besides, I am not guilty of the lack of consistency you are accusing me of. I personally never critized mistakes, and I never critized your drumming, which I think is fantastic, maybe too loud, but that's not because of you, as your clearly explained.
I would appreciate a bit more respect of each other's preferences. I don't share your opinion about overdubs, but I would not allow myself to say that your opinion is "over the top" and that you "spoil the discussion". Many thanks in advance. Cheers.
Post by: Chris W on November 17, 2023, 11:52:49 AM
My point directed at you was your thought that if people fixed mistakes in live recordings it was because they were ashamed of the performance.
That is 1) not correct and 2) rather an extreme version of reality. I gave actual examples why it is wrong.
The discussion (like other discussions) gets spoiled when people reach for extremes - like the idea artists are so ashamed of their shows they doctor them for live albums.
Post by: Chris W on November 17, 2023, 11:56:56 AM
I would appreciate a bit more respect of each other's preferences. I don't share your opinion about overdubs
err, I haven't expressed 'my opinion', I am telling forum members it is normal, it happens on 99% of live albums, and why it is easier to fix a singe instrument in a verse, than try and find another verse from another show where 9 people are all playing perfectly.
I'm just telling it like it is, not expressing a personal opinion.
Post by: herlock on November 17, 2023, 12:08:42 PM
As you stated yourself, that overdubs do exist is a fact; whether it is a good thing or not is an opinion.
I would appreciate a bit more respect of each other's preferences. I don't share your opinion about overdubs
err, I haven't expressed 'my opinion', I am telling forum members it is normal, it happens on 99% of live albums, and why it is easier to fix a singe instrument in a verse, than try and find another verse from another show where 9 people are all playing perfectly.
I'm just telling it like it is, not expressing a personal opinion.
I have merely stated that I prefer to hear the concert as it was heard in the audience. This is my opinion. And given the success of Alchemy as a raw live album, I am not alone...
I do admit, though, that I pushed it too hard with my "ashamed" statement. Apologies for that. I really meant that there is nothing wrong with letting a small mistake here and there. This makes it lively. There is a wrong note at the beginning of TOL solo on Alchemy. This could have been easily fixed, even back in 1984. But they didn't do it. Why? Because, as Mark said at the time, "we just wanted to record a concert"...
Post by: Chris W on November 17, 2023, 12:55:50 PM
The line-up was different. Mark had brought in the cream of studio drummers for the two last albums, Brothers In Arms and On Every Street, leaving Terry Williams off the BIA album. I guess it says he was searching for more perfection in the second half of DS career.
Post by: herlock on November 17, 2023, 01:08:03 PM
Sure. People change. Alchemy was 8 to 9 years earlier.Yet, I can promise you one thing. Make a poll on DS fans, ask them which live album they prefer, Alchemy will win hands down over OTN.
The line-up was different. Mark had brought in the cream of studio drummers for the two last albums, Brothers In Arms and On Every Street, leaving Terry Williams off the BIA album. I guess it says he was searching for more perfection in the second half of DS career.
OK, part of the reason is that OTN was amputated of the best songs (SOS, TR, TOL) because they were already present on Alchemy, and a double album could not be made for whatever commercial reasons, and Mark wanted a album as different as possible from Alchemy.
But another reason is that Alchemy feels live, whether OTN is often described as "overproduced", "they managed to suck the life out of it"... This is not my view, this poll has been done on this forum.
I would say "Too much perfection kills perfection" :)
My 2 cents.
Cheers
Post by: Rolo on November 17, 2023, 01:42:56 PM
This is the kind of over the top commentary that spoils discussions. It's funny, I've read post after post criticising Phil palmer's 'mistake', or saying Mark's solo on a certain song was too fast, blurred. Then in the next breath people want to celebrate the honesty, 'mistakes' and all.
It is NOT about being 'ashamed' of a performance. That is just ridiculous. If you have recorded a fantastic performance of a song and the bass was out of tune (becuase a storm blew in and the temp on stage dropped - hypothetical example), or mark played a blinding solo but fluffed one of his signature moments towards`rds the end - you fix it....everybody fixes it....this is how live albums are made by everyone, which is why most artists do not like audience members recording their shows.
That's exactly what i tried to say here.
I said that MK played blurred notes on Fade To Black in response to the "deep tech" analysis about Phil's "big mistake" on Love Too Much solo.
I am a big fan of MK's work. But, he is human after all. He played a LOT of blurred, mistaken, wrongs or wheteaver notes in his career.
Another thing is that MK and his best man GF said about overbubs, in my opinion, is purely bollocks. They said it only to "keeping the magic" about the Dire Straits live concerts reputation.
I was empolyee of a very small band and the guitar-player made some overbubs for a live DVD record. If a guitar player friend of mine made some overdubs as a emplyeee for a local band for a Local Festival DVD with sold less than 1000 copies, why not the big Dire Straits cannot do it? Because are against their rules.... bollocks.
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 17, 2023, 02:23:48 PM
This is the kind of over the top commentary that spoils discussions. It's funny, I've read post after post criticising Phil palmer's 'mistake', or saying Mark's solo on a certain song was too fast, blurred. Then in the next breath people want to celebrate the honesty, 'mistakes' and all.
It is NOT about being 'ashamed' of a performance. That is just ridiculous. If you have recorded a fantastic performance of a song and the bass was out of tune (becuase a storm blew in and the temp on stage dropped - hypothetical example), or mark played a blinding solo but fluffed one of his signature moments towards`rds the end - you fix it....everybody fixes it....this is how live albums are made by everyone, which is why most artists do not like audience members recording their shows.
That's exactly what i tried to say here.
I said that MK played blurred notes on Fade To Black in response to the "deep tech" analysis about Phil's "big mistake" on Love Too Much solo.
I am a big fan of MK's work. But, he is human after all. He played a LOT of blurred, mistaken, wrongs or wheteaver notes in his career.
Another thing is that MK and his best man GF said about overbubs, in my opinion, is purely bollocks. They said it only to "keeping the magic" about the Dire Straits live concerts reputation.
I was empolyee of a very small band and the guitar-player made some overbubs for a live DVD record. If a guitar player friend of mine made some overdubs as a emplyeee for a local band for a Local Festival DVD with sold less than 1000 copies, why not the big Dire Straits cannot do it? Because are against their rules.... bollocks.
I completely agree, although there are many people stuck in myths like Alchemy being a show without overdubs, and that's not so true, we've known for a while that there were overdubs, Terry's mistake at the end of Solid Rock is a great example , they had to use the audio from the previous night to remedy this. Furthermore, the video is not that real, it is known that there are scenes that were filmed after the show in another location, as the filming was not 100% adequate, (lighting and close-ups on the band), this was explained by none other than than Joop de Korte.
Another point, even though Alchemy is more crude and less overproduced than OTN, and that was Mark's philosophy at the time, 1982/1984, in 1992/1993 he was no longer the same person, people change, their interests and stance were others, of course he could use overdubs for OTN with more emphasis, what would stop him if this had already been a very common practice for some time?
Are we talking about something that is not contained in the Box DS Live 78/92? I think OTN and Alchemy are in the box.
Post by: Chris W on November 17, 2023, 02:45:19 PM
It doesn't matter to me which live album people prefer, or which line-up, just so long as they don't blame individual musicians for the way things sounded, because Mark was 110% in control. Likewise the mixing of the OTN album. No one did anything they weren't asked to do by Mark.
Post by: drparkinson on November 17, 2023, 02:58:12 PM
I am from Sydney and I think part of the reason that the Australian leg did not meet expectations as expressed by Ed Bicknell above, was that they were comparing to the BIA tour which was an extreme success (eg 20 shows in Sydney) which could never be matched by another artist, even DS five years later. But they still managed to do 9 shows in 1991, which as Chris W pointed out was still more than most other artists would have done at the time. MK had said the DS experience in Australia in 1986 had been comparable to Beatlemania in some ways, but like Ed Bicknell later said about the OES tour in general, things had changed "The last tour was utter misery, Whatever the zeitgeist was that we had been part of, it had passed."
I attended the first Sydney '91 show and loved every minute of it (especially the new songs). Some interesting things I remember from that night:
At that time, there was some Musicians Union type ruling that any overseas touring act had to have a local Australian artists as an opening act. DS managed to get around this by having a small band playing quietly in the main bar area which meant that only DS played the main show without the distraction of a support band.
I also remember a funny thing with the audience that I haven't seen with any other show. As the audience on Alchemy is mixed very loud, the cheers, shouts, whistles, claps etc are a distinctive part of that record. For most of the songs played that night that had been on Alchemy, it seemed like parts of the audience were replicating these in exactly the same places and exactly the same way to match what had appeared on the album!
Post by: herlock on November 17, 2023, 03:03:19 PM
I think that the Alchemy tour was more rough and rock and roll. The OES tour reflected the previous two releases (BIA and OES) which are heavily produced and attempting to achieve perfection. Alchemy has five people on stage, OTN nine. That was entirely Mark's decision and reflected the way he wanted the tour to sound.Agreed 100% with you on this one, Chris :)
It doesn't matter to me which live album people prefer, or which line-up, just so long as they don't blame individual musicians for the way things sounded, because Mark was 110% in control. Likewise the mixing of the OTN album. No one did anything they weren't asked to do by Mark.
Just one thing, the LOG tour in 1983 had 8 people on stage, not 5: Mark, John, Hal, Alan, Tommy, Terry, Mel, and Joop (who was not seen, but was there on percussions). Same number for BIA tour, just a change of personnel. The OES only added Pedal Steel. Not that much bigger...
Post by: Chris W on November 17, 2023, 03:25:37 PM
I am from Sydney and I think part of the reason that the Australian leg did not meet expectations as expressed by Ed Bicknell above, was that they were comparing to the BIA tour which was an extreme success (eg 20 shows in Sydney) which could never be matched by another artist, even DS five years later.
This is true. Also, Australia had just, or was just about to go into an economic depression.
The band were talking about Australia a couple of months before we even got there. the anticipation was high!
Let's be honest here, most of us in the 1991 band had a fantastic time in Australia and New Zealand and really enjoyed the shows.
Post by: herlock on November 17, 2023, 04:00:35 PM
It's not a myth, Alchemy is made only of songs from July 23rd July, as they were, save for Solid Rock which is from 22nd. That's not overdubbing, just picking from another show for one item.This is the kind of over the top commentary that spoils discussions. It's funny, I've read post after post criticising Phil palmer's 'mistake', or saying Mark's solo on a certain song was too fast, blurred. Then in the next breath people want to celebrate the honesty, 'mistakes' and all.
It is NOT about being 'ashamed' of a performance. That is just ridiculous. If you have recorded a fantastic performance of a song and the bass was out of tune (becuase a storm blew in and the temp on stage dropped - hypothetical example), or mark played a blinding solo but fluffed one of his signature moments towards`rds the end - you fix it....everybody fixes it....this is how live albums are made by everyone, which is why most artists do not like audience members recording their shows.
That's exactly what i tried to say here.
I said that MK played blurred notes on Fade To Black in response to the "deep tech" analysis about Phil's "big mistake" on Love Too Much solo.
I am a big fan of MK's work. But, he is human after all. He played a LOT of blurred, mistaken, wrongs or wheteaver notes in his career.
Another thing is that MK and his best man GF said about overbubs, in my opinion, is purely bollocks. They said it only to "keeping the magic" about the Dire Straits live concerts reputation.
I was empolyee of a very small band and the guitar-player made some overbubs for a live DVD record. If a guitar player friend of mine made some overdubs as a emplyeee for a local band for a Local Festival DVD with sold less than 1000 copies, why not the big Dire Straits cannot do it? Because are against their rules.... bollocks.
I completely agree, although there are many people stuck in myths like Alchemy being a show without overdubs, and that's not so true, we've known for a while that there were overdubs, Terry's mistake at the end of Solid Rock is a great example , they had to use the audio from the previous night to remedy this. Furthermore, the video is not that real, it is known that there are scenes that were filmed after the show in another location, as the filming was not 100% adequate, (lighting and close-ups on the band), this was explained by none other than than Joop de Korte.
Another point, even though Alchemy is more crude and less overproduced than OTN, and that was Mark's philosophy at the time, 1982/1984, in 1992/1993 he was no longer the same person, people change, their interests and stance were others, of course he could use overdubs for OTN with more emphasis, what would stop him if this had already been a very common practice for some time?
Are we talking about something that is not contained in the Box DS Live 78/92? I think OTN and Alchemy are in the box.
Yes the video is another story, but that was because they were really lacking images, one camera didn't work of something, I would have been very static. For a concert the audio matters so much more IMHO...
Post by: Robson on November 17, 2023, 04:37:58 PM
It's not a myth, Alchemy is made only of songs from July 23rd July, as they were, save for Solid Rock which is from 22nd. That's not overdubbing, just picking from another show for one item.This is the kind of over the top commentary that spoils discussions. It's funny, I've read post after post criticising Phil palmer's 'mistake', or saying Mark's solo on a certain song was too fast, blurred. Then in the next breath people want to celebrate the honesty, 'mistakes' and all.
It is NOT about being 'ashamed' of a performance. That is just ridiculous. If you have recorded a fantastic performance of a song and the bass was out of tune (becuase a storm blew in and the temp on stage dropped - hypothetical example), or mark played a blinding solo but fluffed one of his signature moments towards`rds the end - you fix it....everybody fixes it....this is how live albums are made by everyone, which is why most artists do not like audience members recording their shows.
That's exactly what i tried to say here.
I said that MK played blurred notes on Fade To Black in response to the "deep tech" analysis about Phil's "big mistake" on Love Too Much solo.
I am a big fan of MK's work. But, he is human after all. He played a LOT of blurred, mistaken, wrongs or wheteaver notes in his career.
Another thing is that MK and his best man GF said about overbubs, in my opinion, is purely bollocks. They said it only to "keeping the magic" about the Dire Straits live concerts reputation.
I was empolyee of a very small band and the guitar-player made some overbubs for a live DVD record. If a guitar player friend of mine made some overdubs as a emplyeee for a local band for a Local Festival DVD with sold less than 1000 copies, why not the big Dire Straits cannot do it? Because are against their rules.... bollocks.
I completely agree, although there are many people stuck in myths like Alchemy being a show without overdubs, and that's not so true, we've known for a while that there were overdubs, Terry's mistake at the end of Solid Rock is a great example , they had to use the audio from the previous night to remedy this. Furthermore, the video is not that real, it is known that there are scenes that were filmed after the show in another location, as the filming was not 100% adequate, (lighting and close-ups on the band), this was explained by none other than than Joop de Korte.
Another point, even though Alchemy is more crude and less overproduced than OTN, and that was Mark's philosophy at the time, 1982/1984, in 1992/1993 he was no longer the same person, people change, their interests and stance were others, of course he could use overdubs for OTN with more emphasis, what would stop him if this had already been a very common practice for some time?
Are we talking about something that is not contained in the Box DS Live 78/92? I think OTN and Alchemy are in the box.
Yes the video is another story, but that was because they were really lacking images, one camera didn't work of something, I would have been very static. For a concert the audio matters so much more IMHO...
Portobelo Belle from July 22 ;)
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 17, 2023, 04:39:11 PM
It's not a myth, Alchemy is made only of songs from July 23rd July, as they were, save for Solid Rock which is from 22nd. That's not overdubbing, just picking from another show for one item.This is the kind of over the top commentary that spoils discussions. It's funny, I've read post after post criticising Phil palmer's 'mistake', or saying Mark's solo on a certain song was too fast, blurred. Then in the next breath people want to celebrate the honesty, 'mistakes' and all.
It is NOT about being 'ashamed' of a performance. That is just ridiculous. If you have recorded a fantastic performance of a song and the bass was out of tune (becuase a storm blew in and the temp on stage dropped - hypothetical example), or mark played a blinding solo but fluffed one of his signature moments towards`rds the end - you fix it....everybody fixes it....this is how live albums are made by everyone, which is why most artists do not like audience members recording their shows.
That's exactly what i tried to say here.
I said that MK played blurred notes on Fade To Black in response to the "deep tech" analysis about Phil's "big mistake" on Love Too Much solo.
I am a big fan of MK's work. But, he is human after all. He played a LOT of blurred, mistaken, wrongs or wheteaver notes in his career.
Another thing is that MK and his best man GF said about overbubs, in my opinion, is purely bollocks. They said it only to "keeping the magic" about the Dire Straits live concerts reputation.
I was empolyee of a very small band and the guitar-player made some overbubs for a live DVD record. If a guitar player friend of mine made some overdubs as a emplyeee for a local band for a Local Festival DVD with sold less than 1000 copies, why not the big Dire Straits cannot do it? Because are against their rules.... bollocks.
I completely agree, although there are many people stuck in myths like Alchemy being a show without overdubs, and that's not so true, we've known for a while that there were overdubs, Terry's mistake at the end of Solid Rock is a great example , they had to use the audio from the previous night to remedy this. Furthermore, the video is not that real, it is known that there are scenes that were filmed after the show in another location, as the filming was not 100% adequate, (lighting and close-ups on the band), this was explained by none other than than Joop de Korte.
Another point, even though Alchemy is more crude and less overproduced than OTN, and that was Mark's philosophy at the time, 1982/1984, in 1992/1993 he was no longer the same person, people change, their interests and stance were others, of course he could use overdubs for OTN with more emphasis, what would stop him if this had already been a very common practice for some time?
Are we talking about something that is not contained in the Box DS Live 78/92? I think OTN and Alchemy are in the box.
Yes the video is another story, but that was because they were really lacking images, one camera didn't work of something, I would have been very static. For a concert the audio matters so much more IMHO...
Whether it was an overdub or not for the end of Soid Rock, Alchemy was sold as a show 100% without overdubs and the result of a single night, which is why I mentioned "myth", if it weren't for the Bootleg on 07/23/ 83, we wouldn't know that they used something from the show on 7/22/83, as there is no such information in the release.
But, of course, Alchemy has this more raw aspect and brings an almost complete experience of a single night, something that doesn't happen in OTN, especially because the proposal was different, different from Alchemy, everything had changed, including the thing itself Mark Knopfler.
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 17, 2023, 04:41:02 PM
It's not a myth, Alchemy is made only of songs from July 23rd July, as they were, save for Solid Rock which is from 22nd. That's not overdubbing, just picking from another show for one item.This is the kind of over the top commentary that spoils discussions. It's funny, I've read post after post criticising Phil palmer's 'mistake', or saying Mark's solo on a certain song was too fast, blurred. Then in the next breath people want to celebrate the honesty, 'mistakes' and all.
It is NOT about being 'ashamed' of a performance. That is just ridiculous. If you have recorded a fantastic performance of a song and the bass was out of tune (becuase a storm blew in and the temp on stage dropped - hypothetical example), or mark played a blinding solo but fluffed one of his signature moments towards`rds the end - you fix it....everybody fixes it....this is how live albums are made by everyone, which is why most artists do not like audience members recording their shows.
That's exactly what i tried to say here.
I said that MK played blurred notes on Fade To Black in response to the "deep tech" analysis about Phil's "big mistake" on Love Too Much solo.
I am a big fan of MK's work. But, he is human after all. He played a LOT of blurred, mistaken, wrongs or wheteaver notes in his career.
Another thing is that MK and his best man GF said about overbubs, in my opinion, is purely bollocks. They said it only to "keeping the magic" about the Dire Straits live concerts reputation.
I was empolyee of a very small band and the guitar-player made some overbubs for a live DVD record. If a guitar player friend of mine made some overdubs as a emplyeee for a local band for a Local Festival DVD with sold less than 1000 copies, why not the big Dire Straits cannot do it? Because are against their rules.... bollocks.
I completely agree, although there are many people stuck in myths like Alchemy being a show without overdubs, and that's not so true, we've known for a while that there were overdubs, Terry's mistake at the end of Solid Rock is a great example , they had to use the audio from the previous night to remedy this. Furthermore, the video is not that real, it is known that there are scenes that were filmed after the show in another location, as the filming was not 100% adequate, (lighting and close-ups on the band), this was explained by none other than than Joop de Korte.
Another point, even though Alchemy is more crude and less overproduced than OTN, and that was Mark's philosophy at the time, 1982/1984, in 1992/1993 he was no longer the same person, people change, their interests and stance were others, of course he could use overdubs for OTN with more emphasis, what would stop him if this had already been a very common practice for some time?
Are we talking about something that is not contained in the Box DS Live 78/92? I think OTN and Alchemy are in the box.
Yes the video is another story, but that was because they were really lacking images, one camera didn't work of something, I would have been very static. For a concert the audio matters so much more IMHO...
Portobelo Belle from July 22 ;)
Looks like Twisting by the Pool too! Things seem to have started to change! ;)
Post by: Robson on November 17, 2023, 04:46:19 PM
Post by: Matchstickman on November 17, 2023, 05:12:34 PM
The live intro to Heavy Fuel on OTN seems inconceivable in 1983 - by 1992, Mark had reached full guitar hero status, stadium rock mode. (He probably picked up the habit of introducing songs with some improvised loud noodling from Clapton on the tour with him (like on Crossroads in 1988).)
As much as I like the Sultans version from Alchemy, overall that record does simply not feature my favourite type of sound overall. Industrial Disease, Expresso Love... They sound a bit thin for rock songs, whereas the OES tour sound on CE, When it Comes to You, ITILYTM, Solid Rock, etc., is great - fatter, with more bite. Phil Palmer probably played a part in this, and was mixed louder than Hal Lindes (at least on recordings, Hal is often barely audible).
But of course Alchemy is more famous album - it was the first, after all, and the first "live" encounter with DS on record. And it had THE Sultans version.
Post by: herlock on November 17, 2023, 05:26:26 PM
I don't find the earlier sound "thin", the Schecter sound is pretty heavy to me, I find the Pensa tone rather soft in comparison.
And Mark may have moved to Stadium Rock for the OES tour, but then he got sick and tired of it, and came back to basis: smaller scale Fender, Les Paul, rather than "one size fits all" Pensa...
Post by: JF on November 17, 2023, 06:07:46 PM
I hope you are talking about thoses recorded during eighties and nineties and afterwards, but it's not the case in "legendary" live albums right ?
I can't think that there are overdubbds in :
- get yer ya-ya's out !
- rock'n'roll animal
- ABB at Filmore East
- woodstock
- Wight
- Derek & the Dominos at the Fillmore
- Cream at the fillmore
- Live/dead
- The last waltz
- Rust never sleeps
etc...
I know some of them do have editing, but that's not the same think than overdubbing in the studio...
Post by: kumchenko on November 17, 2023, 07:19:59 PM
Post by: dustyvalentino on November 17, 2023, 07:42:19 PM
Chris, you say that 99,99% live album have overdubbs
I hope you are talking about thoses recorded during eighties and nineties and afterwards, but it's not the case in "legendary" live albums right ?
I can't think that there are overdubbds in :
- get yer ya-ya's out !
- rock'n'roll animal
- ABB at Filmore East
- woodstock
- Wight
- Derek & the Dominos at the Fillmore
- Cream at the fillmore
- Live/dead
- The last waltz
- Rust never sleeps
etc...
I know some of them do have editing, but that's not the same think than overdubbing in the studio...
https://cinemontage.org/steve-maslow-on-the-last-waltz/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CRick%20Danko%20decided%20after%20the,switch%20to%20the%20overdub%20bass.
Overdubbed bass on Last Waltz apparently.
Post by: Brunno Nunes on November 17, 2023, 07:43:50 PM
Frankly, I have always been more of a fan of the OES tour than LOG/Alchemy. Back in 1983, DS was still something of a retro-rock band. Mark's guitar sound was mostly pretty thin for rock guitar. Later, after the BIA tour and around the time of 1988, the Mandela gig and the Clapton tour, Mark moved into the Pensas and a fatter overdriven sound.
The live intro to Heavy Fuel on OTN seems inconceivable in 1983 - by 1992, Mark had reached full guitar hero status, stadium rock mode. (He probably picked up the habit of introducing songs with some improvised loud noodling from Clapton on the tour with him (like on Crossroads in 1988).)
As much as I like the Sultans version from Alchemy, overall that record does simply not feature my favourite type of sound overall. Industrial Disease, Expresso Love... They sound a bit thin for rock songs, whereas the OES tour sound on CE, When it Comes to You, ITILYTM, Solid Rock, etc., is great - fatter, with more bite. Phil Palmer probably played a part in this, and was mixed louder than Hal Lindes (at least on recordings, Hal is often barely audible).
But of course Alchemy is more famous album - it was the first, after all, and the first "live" encounter with DS on record. And it had THE Sultans version.
If arena rock is everything to you, I can understand your point of view. For me, each phase has its own beauty and flavor, I know how to appreciate each phase and extract the best, I know the nuances of each tour, repertoire, guitar tones, arrangements and atmospheres interest me and I love to appreciate the musical evolution of the songs as they go. Over time, this is part of my fun.
If I could be at a Dire Straits show, I would choose Rockpalast 79 or Rainbow Theater 79 over Nimes or Rotterdam 92, even Wembley 85, the simpler the more magic for me, that sound of the Knopfler brothers' fender guitars and Pick's drumming playing the songs on the first two albums is something priceless, it will always have a very special place in me, I don't deny that I'm a purist. :lol
Post by: Robson on November 17, 2023, 07:49:04 PM
Unlike MK. Mark is not a purist ;)
Post by: dustyvalentino on November 17, 2023, 07:50:25 PM
Post by: herlock on November 17, 2023, 08:17:20 PM
I love all eras. I wouldn't say the one is superior to the other. If I am in a bare-bones stripped-down mood, I go for '79. If I am in a badass over the top mood (it seems it happens to me, even here 🙂), I go for'85 or' 92. And I love them all, really.Frankly, I have always been more of a fan of the OES tour than LOG/Alchemy. Back in 1983, DS was still something of a retro-rock band. Mark's guitar sound was mostly pretty thin for rock guitar. Later, after the BIA tour and around the time of 1988, the Mandela gig and the Clapton tour, Mark moved into the Pensas and a fatter overdriven sound.
The live intro to Heavy Fuel on OTN seems inconceivable in 1983 - by 1992, Mark had reached full guitar hero status, stadium rock mode. (He probably picked up the habit of introducing songs with some improvised loud noodling from Clapton on the tour with him (like on Crossroads in 1988).)
As much as I like the Sultans version from Alchemy, overall that record does simply not feature my favourite type of sound overall. Industrial Disease, Expresso Love... They sound a bit thin for rock songs, whereas the OES tour sound on CE, When it Comes to You, ITILYTM, Solid Rock, etc., is great - fatter, with more bite. Phil Palmer probably played a part in this, and was mixed louder than Hal Lindes (at least on recordings, Hal is often barely audible).
But of course Alchemy is more famous album - it was the first, after all, and the first "live" encounter with DS on record. And it had THE Sultans version.
If arena rock is everything to you, I can understand your point of view. For me, each phase has its own beauty and flavor, I know how to appreciate each phase and extract the best, I know the nuances of each tour, repertoire, guitar tones, arrangements and atmospheres interest me and I love to appreciate the musical evolution of the songs as they go. Over time, this is part of my fun.
If I could be at a Dire Straits show, I would choose Rockpalast 79 or Rainbow Theater 79 over Nimes or Rotterdam 92, even Wembley 85, the simpler the more magic for me, that sound of the Knopfler brothers' fender guitars and Pick's drumming playing the songs on the first two albums is something priceless, it will always have a very special place in me, I don't deny that I'm a purist. :lol
Mark had moods in terms of complexity. In 80 he added one keyboardist, then a second one in 82, then a sax player in 83, then pedal steel in 91. And then in '96, a decrease, enough of all this tralala, gone is the sax, gone is the pedal steel. Then, in 2008, increase again, welcome folkies! In 2013, sax again! And 2019, the brassies! Started to look overcorwded like' 92! :)
Post by: NicoMK on November 17, 2023, 08:57:15 PM
I think that the Alchemy tour was more rough and rock and roll. The OES tour reflected the previous two releases (BIA and OES) which are heavily produced and attempting to achieve perfection. Alchemy has five people on stage, OTN nine. That was entirely Mark's decision and reflected the way he wanted the tour to sound.Haven't posted for a while but I just wanted to thank Chris W. for his contribution sand for making this thread absolutely great. Very informative, thank you!
It doesn't matter to me which live album people prefer, or which line-up, just so long as they don't blame individual musicians for the way things sounded, because Mark was 110% in control. Likewise the mixing of the OTN album. No one did anything they weren't asked to do by Mark.
Post by: Chris W on November 18, 2023, 09:31:57 AM
Chris, you say that 99,99% live album have overdubbs
I hope you are talking about thoses recorded during eighties and nineties and afterwards, but it's not the case in "legendary" live albums right ?
Only the people involved would know for sure.
If a show is recorded on a multi-track (since the 70's at latest), you could overdub and fix parts.
I was shocked once when I saw a documentary about a famous conductor recording a symphony for an album. They literally played each short section of the music multiple times until it was perfect, then moved on. The whole piece was edited together from short one to ten minute sections. This is apparently completely routine in orchestral recording.
Post by: quizzaciously on November 18, 2023, 10:25:33 AM
Chris, you say that 99,99% live album have overdubbs
I hope you are talking about thoses recorded during eighties and nineties and afterwards, but it's not the case in "legendary" live albums right ?
Only the people involved would know for sure.
If a show is recorded on a multi-track (since the 70's at latest), you could overdub and fix parts.
I was shocked once when I saw a documentary about a famous conductor recording a symphony for an album. They literally played each short section of the music multiple times until it was perfect, then moved on. The whole piece was edited together from short one to ten minute sections. This is apparently completely routine in orchestral recording.
I'd say nothing wrong with overdubs. An unedited live show is a vastly overrated thing. If you want to hear a live show, you buy a ticket and go to a concert... Everything else is recorded, edited, mixed and mastered by default.
Not every mistake is created equally, some of them might ruin the whole performance, and some can occasionally enhance it. Either way, you create something for eternity, not for the moment, and nobody wants to glare at the mistakes for the rest of history.
To me, a live album is more or less the “how I remember the show” situation much like modern remasters of old video games with 20-25 years of advancements in technology is the way you remember them. And you remember it being flawless, of course! So it’s like a dream.
It’s cool when you can afford a completely unedited performance, I doubt jazz cats and Nashville veterans ever use overdubs on anything… But not everybody is a virtuoso and a genius, and sometimes a little editing won’t hurt.
Post by: herlock on November 18, 2023, 10:29:48 AM
Post by: Chris W on November 18, 2023, 10:33:53 AM
I doubt jazz cats and Nashville veterans ever use overdubs on anything… But not everybody is a virtuoso and a genius, and sometimes a little editing won’t hurt.
Everybody overdubs and edits. How much is another matter. As I said, even elite orchestras record in short bursts and edit the sections together to achieve absolute perfection. It's about using the technology to achieve the 'best' result, it has nothing to do with genius or virtuosos players. Virtuoso players demand even more perfection.
Mikes Davis' iconic 'jazz-rock' albums consisted of editing together the 'best' bits of lengthy jams into shorter bite size pieces.
Post by: superval99 on November 18, 2023, 10:36:06 AM
MK solo recordings are unedited, mixed on the fly, and distributed "as it is". They are full of mistakes. And I deeply enjoy them...
Yes, I still enjoy them very much from what I remember when I was in the audience. :)
Post by: Robson on November 18, 2023, 01:47:46 PM
MK solo recordings are unedited, mixed on the fly, and distributed "as it is". They are full of mistakes. And I deeply enjoy them...
Exactly. But can these concerts be called MK's discography? I have a problem with it :)
Post by: dmg on November 18, 2023, 01:53:09 PM
MK solo recordings are unedited, mixed on the fly, and distributed "as it is". They are full of mistakes. And I deeply enjoy them...
I think there must be a few exceptions because they "fixed" the major error in the MFN intro in 2019 in Ålesund, but 99% of the time you are correct.
Post by: KnopfleRick on November 18, 2023, 02:38:27 PM
MK solo recordings are unedited, mixed on the fly, and distributed "as it is". They are full of mistakes. And I deeply enjoy them...
I do enjoy these recordings, too. I'm glad Mark decided to do this making these concerts available for us fans. Not every artist is willing to do this.
Post by: Chris W on November 18, 2023, 02:49:09 PM
Post by: JF on November 18, 2023, 03:41:35 PM
here is my article on franceinfo : https://www.francetvinfo.fr/culture/musique/rock/un-coffret-live-de-dire-straits-le-groupe-culte-des-annees-80-des-pepites-mais-aussi-des-imperfections_6183117.html
nothing new for you, but I'm glad I was able to express my thoughts on a public massmedia
Post by: Matchstickman on November 18, 2023, 04:51:56 PM
Some of my issues with Alchemy:
- R&J outro on acoustic guitar
- Hal playing lead lines in Sultans
- Long, overdone and repetitive opener in Once Upon
- Odd structure, with first half mostly slow
- Sound of cymbals
Post by: rmarques821 on November 18, 2023, 05:11:07 PM
I also like the different eras and arrangements. But currently I prefer the early years to the middle period (Alchemy etc.).R&J outro on acoustic guitar is one of the best things that came out of MK's mind. I would buy the album even if it consisted of only those 30 seconds. That solo + synths is just pure magic.
Some of my issues with Alchemy:
- R&J outro on acoustic guitar
- Hal playing lead lines in Sultans
- Long, overdone and repetitive opener in Once Upon
- Odd structure, with first half mostly slow
- Sound of cymbals
Post by: herlock on November 18, 2023, 09:00:44 PM
Yes, we may be the minority here but I love this 1983 version of R&J. Of course latter versions with the sax solo and electric guitar are great too, but a bit cheesy to my taste. On Alchemy the synth intro (too bad a few seconds are missing in the video) is very touching, and so is the acoustic outro, I don't know why people dislike it so much.I also like the different eras and arrangements. But currently I prefer the early years to the middle period (Alchemy etc.).R&J outro on acoustic guitar is one of the best things that came out of MK's mind. I would buy the album even if it consisted of only those 30 seconds. That solo + synths is just pure magic.
Some of my issues with Alchemy:
- R&J outro on acoustic guitar
- Hal playing lead lines in Sultans
- Long, overdone and repetitive opener in Once Upon
- Odd structure, with first half mostly slow
- Sound of cymbals
Post by: Robson on November 19, 2023, 01:48:48 PM
Post by: Pookie on November 19, 2023, 09:36:22 PM
With my dad I went to Rotterdam 1992. The 4k video from Basel 1992 and Nimes 1992 TV shows brings back memories - my dad passed away last month. OTN may sound overproduced, I don't mind, it nicely complements the 1992 broadcasts in terms of different track listing.
The insights here from Chris on the 91-92 tour are fantastic read. Thanks for that. What i still do not comprhend is why the tour stopped in late 1992 whereas more shows originally were planned into 1993. I cannot be just financials? Metallica and Guns n Roses toured across the globe in 1991-1993 and that did not seemed to be a problem (perhaps it did in hindsight).
Post by: jbaent on November 20, 2023, 06:16:06 AM
I have always liked Alchemy, and from what I understood from John Illsley's book, these shows were top notch for that tour. At home we bought this album for my dad's birthday. I always felt the drum parts were slightly overpowering the other instruments and I believe the newest version balances things out better.
With my dad I went to Rotterdam 1992. The 4k video from Basel 1992 and Nimes 1992 TV shows brings back memories - my dad passed away last month. OTN may sound overproduced, I don't mind, it nicely complements the 1992 broadcasts in terms of different track listing.
The insights here from Chris on the 91-92 tour are fantastic read. Thanks for that. What i still do not comprhend is why the tour stopped in late 1992 whereas more shows originally were planned into 1993. I cannot be just financials? Metallica and Guns n Roses toured across the globe in 1991-1993 and that did not seemed to be a problem (perhaps it did in hindsight).
The tour was originally planned to last more but economic situation in most of the world, as Es Bicknell said and also MK being tired and not in the mood to continue, made the tour end for good in Zaragoza.
Post by: Chris W on November 20, 2023, 09:12:14 AM
It WAS extremely gruelling. If you have never travelled every day for a year and lived out of a suitcase, away from loved ones, you don't know.
I saw a tv documentary about Roxy Music. They toured for just less than a year. After the last show they drove back to the hotel, no drinks in the bar. The next day they all left at different times to travel home and never even spoke to each other again for several years. It is tough.
Post by: jbaent on November 20, 2023, 09:47:34 AM
Maybe they felt they had made enough money.
It WAS extremely gruelling. If you have never travelled every day for a year and lived out of a suitcase, away from loved ones, you don't know.
I saw a tv documentary about Roxy Music. They toured for just less than a year. After the last show they drove back to the hotel, no drinks in the bar. The next day they all left at different times to travel home and never even spoke to each other again for several years. It is tough.
Yeah, I always though it's tough. When I traveled to attend let's say three or four concerts in different cities or countries, I felt quite tired and always thought how you guys can do that. Yes, you are traveling in a more comfortable way but changing from one hotel room to another, bus or car from the airport to the hotel, from the hotel to the venue, from the venue to the hotel, from the hotel to the airport, and back to start, wow.
But the tour was planned to last two years, that's what they always said, and was planned to visit NA twice, to visit Eastern Europe and South America, and all that plans were dropped because of the economical situation as can be readed in Ed's words. That's why I asked you that when you signed the contract, if there was any clause to extend automatically the contract if all those extra gigs would had been scheduled, or your contract was closed from the first day of rehearsals until Zaragoza, and that was it.
Post by: Chris W on November 20, 2023, 09:55:44 AM
Most of the time, in my experience, the first six months or so are heavily penned in, with additional legs only pencilled in.
On the McCartney tour he agreed to play the first European section, followed by the first North America section. as we started the North America section he agreed to the next European shows and another North America leg (and that's where it ended, nine months on the road).
DS: In my mind, we knew we were playing UK and Europe, then Australia, then USA/Canada, then UK and Europe again. That took us to nearly 12 months. I'm not are I knew any more than that.
I AM sure Mark, John, Ed and the promoters might have discussed other legs and probably planned for them (like S America and Eastern Europe), but I can't remember being asked to tour beyond 1992.
Post by: jbaent on November 20, 2023, 09:57:45 AM
In my mind I was never contracted for two years. I don't think I would have agreed to two years. I was already fearful and hesitant to agree to one year.
Most of the time, in my experience, the first six months or so are heavily penned in, with additional legs only pencilled in.
On the McCartney tour he agreed to play the first European section, followed by the first North America section. as we started the North America section he agreed to the next European shows and another North America leg (and that's where it ended, nine months on the road).
DS: In my mind, we knew we were playing UK and Europe, then Australia, then USA/Canada, then UK and Europe again. That took us to nearly 12 months. I'm not are I knew any more than that.
I AM sure Mark, John, Ed and the promoters might have discussed other legs and probably planned for them (like S America and Eastern Europe), but I can't remember being asked to tour beyond 1992.
Yes Chris, thanks, but what I mean is if they would had planned more gigs further than Zaragoza, they would had to ask and sign a new contract, or that's automatically extend.
Post by: Chris W on November 20, 2023, 10:02:04 AM
The tour was originally contracted to start 6 months earlier. When it was postponed due to the Gulf war, many people protested. Band members and crew had turned down other work in order to be available for DS. A note went out from the managers that people would be compensated by DS for the lost work.
Now...
As the tour drew to a close in September/October 1992, no one was angry that proposed employment was being cancelled and as a result they were financially poorer. It seemed to naturally draw to a close. There was no message from management that additional legs were now cancelled and that band and crew would be compensated for lost earnings. So in my mind (at least) the legs were more provisional and it was fairly obvious (at least by the USA February 1992) that they wouldn't be happening.
Mark and John still made a financial killing from the tour.
Post by: Chris W on November 20, 2023, 10:03:34 AM
Yes Chris, thanks, but what I mean is if they would had planned more gigs further than Zaragoza, they would had to ask and sign a new contract, or that's automatically extend.
Sure. I can't remember. Maybe there was an option to extend?
I'm not sure I would have committed to 2 years, which was more 2.5 years with rehearsals etc. Maybe I did???
At the time (80's and 90's), most huge bands would undertake a 12 or 14 month world tour. These days bands are almost permanently on tour (U2, Taylor Swift, Coldplay etc). But in the vinyl/CD era bands made more money from record sales and tours weren't as profitable.
So maybe that's why I assumed it was going to be around a 12 month tour?
Post by: jbaent on November 20, 2023, 11:36:35 AM
Yes Chris, thanks, but what I mean is if they would had planned more gigs further than Zaragoza, they would had to ask and sign a new contract, or that's automatically extend.
Sure. I can't remember. Maybe there was an option to extend?
I'm not sure I would have committed to 2 years, which was more 2.5 years with rehearsals etc. Maybe I did???
At the time (80's and 90's), most huge bands would undertake a 12 or 14 month world tour. These days bands are almost permanently on tour (U2, Taylor Swift, Coldplay etc). But in the vinyl/CD era bands made more money from record sales and tours weren't as profitable.
So maybe that's why I assumed it was going to be around a 12 month tour?
Thanks for all your explanations. It's priceless to have information from someone that was IN the tour.
There is something curious for me. After they asked Jeff Porcaro and Manu Katché, the drummers in the OES record first, their first choice was you, and as you said you refused, they insisted, you refused again, and they insisted until you said yes... that made me wonder, how is it possible they didn't had any plan B in case you kept saying no?
It's great to know they wanted you that much but with a tour being planned, a musician says no to you several times, and instead of search for another, you insist asking the same musician...
Post by: Chris W on November 20, 2023, 12:30:25 PM
I didn't speak to them personally after the 'audition' at Air Studios. I had a manager and he was talking to DS management. I wasn't violently against doing it, I was inclined not to do the tour because I had already decided to go back to recording studio work.
So I'm not sure how strongly my manager told DS management that I wouldn't do the tour, or whether it was an ongoing conversation.
This was many weeks before the rehearsals were supposed to start. I don't know of they had a Plan B or not - which would have actually been a Plan D.
Post by: jbaent on November 20, 2023, 01:12:24 PM
I guess they thought their case was compelling and I would eventually agree.
I didn't speak to them personally after the 'audition' at Air Studios. I had a manager and he was talking to DS management. I wasn't violently against doing it, I was inclined not to do the tour because I had already decided to go back to recording studio work.
So I'm not sure how strongly my manager told DS management that I wouldn't do the tour, or whether it was an ongoing conversation.
This was many weeks before the rehearsals were supposed to start. I don't know of they had a Plan B or not - which would have actually been a Plan D.
As I said, for me you were plan A if you think about musicians not involved in the record. It kinds of makes sense to ask the musicians that played in the record as they know those songs, if they say no, which they did, then you have to look for a drummer that had nothing to do with the record, and this is when you are plan A.
All the rest of the touring band played in the record, more or less, but played, you were the only one that didn't, as far as I remember.
Post by: Chris W on November 20, 2023, 01:34:36 PM
Phil had of course already played at various DS gigs through his Eric Clapton connection.
Post by: jbaent on November 20, 2023, 01:51:02 PM
Did Phil Palmer play on the record? I'm not sure if Chris White did, although he had a looong history with DS and Mark.
Phil had of course already played at various DS gigs through his Eric Clapton connection.
Both Phil and Danny are credited in the record. Danny's playing is listenable throught the entire record, Phil, I think he played for sure in the song OES, the outtro as he mentioned it in his book, I think he mentions he played others songs too but can't remember exactly.
Post by: Chris W on November 20, 2023, 01:57:05 PM
Post by: Love Expresso on November 20, 2023, 08:00:35 PM
LE
Post by: jf9081 on November 20, 2023, 08:48:56 PM
I also like the different eras and arrangements. But currently I prefer the early years to the middle period (Alchemy etc.).
Some of my issues with Alchemy:
- R&J outro on acoustic guitar
- Hal playing lead lines in Sultans
- Long, overdone and repetitive opener in Once Upon
- Odd structure, with first half mostly slow
- Sound of cymbals
Curiosity: I'm not a drummer and I don't understand much about it... what don't you like about the sound of Alchemy's cymbals? maybe the hi-hat? it's never uniform and in the foreground throughout the concert.. I have to say that the cymbals on Portobello belle seem better than on the whole album... could it be the new mix?
Post by: Matchstickman on November 20, 2023, 10:25:37 PM
I also like the different eras and arrangements. But currently I prefer the early years to the middle period (Alchemy etc.).
Some of my issues with Alchemy:
- R&J outro on acoustic guitar
- Hal playing lead lines in Sultans
- Long, overdone and repetitive opener in Once Upon
- Odd structure, with first half mostly slow
- Sound of cymbals
Curiosity: I'm not a drummer and I don't understand much about it... what don't you like about the sound of Alchemy's cymbals? maybe the hi-hat? it's never uniform and in the foreground throughout the concert.. I have to say that the cymbals on Portobello belle seem better than on the whole album... could it be the new mix?
It is of course a minor thing and I mentioned it partly as a joke. But it seems to me that the sound of the cymbals die or fade very quickly, whereas I like it when there is a longer sound. Level: details 🙂
Post by: jf9081 on November 20, 2023, 10:53:08 PM
I also like the different eras and arrangements. But currently I prefer the early years to the middle period (Alchemy etc.).
Some of my issues with Alchemy:
- R&J outro on acoustic guitar
- Hal playing lead lines in Sultans
- Long, overdone and repetitive opener in Once Upon
- Odd structure, with first half mostly slow
- Sound of cymbals
Curiosity: I'm not a drummer and I don't understand much about it... what don't you like about the sound of Alchemy's cymbals? maybe the hi-hat? it's never uniform and in the foreground throughout the concert.. I have to say that the cymbals on Portobello belle seem better than on the whole album... could it be the new mix?
It is of course a minor thing and I mentioned it partly as a joke. But it seems to me that the sound of the cymbals die or fade very quickly, whereas I like it when there is a longer sound. Level: details 🙂
:thumbsup
Post by: Chris W on November 21, 2023, 09:40:59 AM
Chris, you are visible in the Calling Elvis video clip, in those very short "real" snippets between the puppet sequences. Do you remember that video shoot? I guess it was filmed during the rehearsals? The release of the first single was a very big thing after a six year gap since the last album back in those days in 1991.
The Calling Elvis video was made before rehearsals - don't forget the band line-up was completed, then the tour was postponed by 6 months.
They modelled the Gerry Anderson drummer figure exactly on me, and also modelled my Noble & Cooley drum kit exactly.
We had to take numerous photos of my drums, plus detailed measurements. I was also measured and photographed (wearing the clothes I would wear in the video).
From memory we spent a whole long day being filmed playing the song, of which virtually nothing appeared in the final video.
Post by: jbaent on November 21, 2023, 09:47:10 AM
Chris, you are visible in the Calling Elvis video clip, in those very short "real" snippets between the puppet sequences. Do you remember that video shoot? I guess it was filmed during the rehearsals? The release of the first single was a very big thing after a six year gap since the last album back in those days in 1991.
The Calling Elvis video was made before rehearsals - don't forget the band line-up was completed, then the tour was postponed by 6 months.
They modelled the Gerry Anderson drummer figure exactly on me, and also modelled my Noble & Cooley drum kit exactly.
We had to take numerous photos of my drums, plus detailed measurements. I was also measured and photographed (wearing the clothes I would wear in the video).
From memory we spent a whole long day being filmed playing the song, of which virtually nothing appeared in the final video.
I remember you posted in instagram pictures of that video clip shooting, one of them showing Guy Flecther pretending to play the pedal steel guitar!
Post by: Chris W on November 21, 2023, 10:32:58 AM
I took my stills camera with me, there are also some behind the scenes videos on Youtube.
Of the band, Phil, Danny C and Chris White weren't involved in that video. The rest of us were there.
Post by: Pottel on November 21, 2023, 10:52:02 AM
Post by: Chris W on November 21, 2023, 11:24:07 AM
In the 80's and 90's I liked Pat Metheny.
Drumming-wise I liked Narada Michael Walden and Prairie Prince (The Tubes).
Post by: Pottel on November 21, 2023, 11:35:13 AM
also, as a non-drummer, that name does not ring a bell.
not the usual, Jim Keltner, Jeff Porcaro, John Bonham, Nick masons that i had expected :-)
Post by: Chris W on November 21, 2023, 01:57:24 PM
Yes, I absolutely loved Jeff Porcaro and Andy Newark and admired their work - at the time I was trying to do similar standard work in the studio (1980's). Those were the guys I looked up to.
But as far as in my formative years, earlier in my teens etc it was Narada and Prairie Prince.
Post by: Matchstickman on November 25, 2023, 01:43:29 PM
It seems that they think that the tour was called the On the Night tour, though it was not, or what am I missing?
Post by: Love Expresso on November 25, 2023, 02:34:04 PM
LE
Post by: Matchstickman on November 25, 2023, 02:48:05 PM
Yes, it's wrong, you didn't miss anything, but it's direstraits.com, so... :wave
LE
:) :)
Anyway, the songs from their final, monster, legendary OES tour are on constant repeat!
Post by: Matchstickman on December 01, 2023, 06:15:02 PM
Anyway, I just listened to the TOL version from the Mandela warm-up gig, and in the breakdown section in the middle of the song, Mark plays the instrumental passage from Springsteen's Tunnel of Love song. Just before he starts to play that part, and he plays it twice, he says "Tunnel of Love", which seemed a bit off before I realised that he was referring to ANOTHER Tunnel of Love :)
It's at 5:40 here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXPAOCWrPHc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXPAOCWrPHc)
Post by: dustyvalentino on December 01, 2023, 07:19:24 PM
Post by: Pottel on December 05, 2023, 10:20:36 AM
but not being a Springsteen nut, and (upon checking just now) really not liking his "tunnel of love", can someone pinpoint me to the exact timestamp for the above mentioned "event"?
Post by: Dutchessy on December 05, 2023, 11:09:55 AM
always loved the middle part
but not being a Springsteen nut, and (upon checking just now) really not liking his "tunnel of love", can someone pinpoint me to the exact timestamp for the above mentioned "event"?
Througout the whole song, example 21-29 secs
Post by: Matchstickman on December 05, 2023, 08:10:04 PM
always loved the middle part
but not being a Springsteen nut, and (upon checking just now) really not liking his "tunnel of love", can someone pinpoint me to the exact timestamp for the above mentioned "event"?
In the clip I posted, it starts at about 5:40, as I mentioned. It goes on for a bit.
And Bruce's TOL is a gem ;)
Post by: Pottel on December 05, 2023, 08:34:23 PM
yikes...lol. horrible guitar also. did not finish the song. sorry. luckily tastes differ...always loved the middle part
but not being a Springsteen nut, and (upon checking just now) really not liking his "tunnel of love", can someone pinpoint me to the exact timestamp for the above mentioned "event"?
In the clip I posted, it starts at about 5:40, as I mentioned. It goes on for a bit.
And Bruce's TOL is a gem ;)
Post by: Dutchessy on December 05, 2023, 09:26:58 PM
Post by: Matchstickman on December 05, 2023, 10:25:25 PM
yikes...lol. horrible guitar also. did not finish the song. sorry. luckily tastes differ...always loved the middle part
but not being a Springsteen nut, and (upon checking just now) really not liking his "tunnel of love", can someone pinpoint me to the exact timestamp for the above mentioned "event"?
In the clip I posted, it starts at about 5:40, as I mentioned. It goes on for a bit.
And Bruce's TOL is a gem ;)
If you mean the guitar in the one by Bruce, that is guitar ace Nils Lofgren on guitar. I think the soloing fits the song; it sounds like a ride down the tunnel, and there is a nice echoing of the melody by voice/guitar. Bruce was so happy with the result that he named the album after that song.
Post by: JF on December 06, 2023, 12:07:50 PM
https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/il-y-a-35-ans-bruce-springsteen-sechappait-en-solo-avec-tunnel-of-love/
I like it
Post by: peterromer on December 06, 2023, 02:54:00 PM
I admire most studio drummers (in particular).
Yes, I absolutely loved Jeff Porcaro and Andy Newark and admired their work - at the time I was trying to do similar standard work in the studio (1980's). Those were the guys I looked up to.
But as far as in my formative years, earlier in my teens etc it was Narada and Prairie Prince.
Chris, - were you ever contacted as a drummer for "Dire Straits Legends" (DSL) ?
I have personally never seen them live, but if they came to Denmark, I would give it a go.
Post by: Chris W on December 06, 2023, 05:48:42 PM
I played with Dire Straits Experience for just over two years.
I just saw their show several times in France and they are outstanding. There is energy, they look like they are blessed to be there and they are playing to 3000-3500 per night. Full PA and lighting rig. It's like a proper rock concert, NOT a tribute.
So I would recommend seeing them.
Post by: Knut on December 07, 2023, 11:31:42 PM
Post by: Knut on December 07, 2023, 11:38:11 PM
Post by: Pottel on December 08, 2023, 10:35:30 AM
@Chris W: Do you remember any songs that were rehearsed for the OES tour, but never actually performed?asking the important questions!!
Post by: Chris W on December 08, 2023, 02:05:47 PM
That is one of the functions of rehearsing, especially with a new ensemble - to see what works and what doesn't.
10 to 12 weeks of rehearsal. Of course we ran songs that Mark decided not to work up to full gig ready, or after we did rehearse them extensively they were either dropped just before the first shows or soon afterwards.
I think we only played Portobello Belle a few times in the first weeks of the tour?
Post by: Robson on December 08, 2023, 02:21:04 PM
Post by: JF on December 08, 2023, 02:27:40 PM
I think we only played Portobello Belle a few times in the first weeks of the tour?
yes but it reappeared again in spring 92 at Grenoble APril 22th ... and maybe some others dates/venues ? I am not sure
https://www.oneverybootleg.nl/grenoble.htm
Post by: quizzaciously on December 08, 2023, 03:21:19 PM
Chris, did Mark ever mention why there won't be any more Tunnel Of Love in the set list?
BTW, just saying, but it would be nice to have a separate topic dedicated to questions for Chris as many will repeat, and it would make more sense.
Post by: dmg on December 08, 2023, 06:50:08 PM
Chris, did Mark ever mention why there won't be any more Tunnel Of Love in the set list?
It was never really dropped from the setlist. It was always alternated with TR and last played in Barcelona 2nd October in the final week of the tour.
Post by: Robson on December 08, 2023, 07:05:43 PM
Chris, did Mark ever mention why there won't be any more Tunnel Of Love in the set list?
BTW, just saying, but it would be nice to have a separate topic dedicated to questions for Chris as many will repeat, and it would make more sense.
It's a good idea. This can be very inspiring :)
Post by: Robson on December 08, 2023, 07:10:31 PM
Chris, did Mark ever mention why there won't be any more Tunnel Of Love in the set list?
It was never really dropped from the setlist. It was always alternated with TR and last played in Barcelona 2nd October in the final week of the tour.
It's true. I was thinking of MK's father who died in 1993. I don't know why I was thinking of 1992 and supposedly that had some significance.
Post by: Knut on December 08, 2023, 07:34:16 PM
There were quite a few. It's so long ago I can't remember the exact songs.
That is one of the functions of rehearsing, especially with a new ensemble - to see what works and what doesn't.
10 to 12 weeks of rehearsal. Of course we ran songs that Mark decided not to work up to full gig ready, or after we did rehearse them extensively they were either dropped just before the first shows or soon afterwards.
I think we only played Portobello Belle a few times in the first weeks of the tour?
Yeah, it's always been like that - the first couple of shows get a few one-offs (or thereabouts). Long Highway from Dublin was a nice one, same with the early OES version of Wild Theme. I totally understand if you don't remember any particular tunes.
The OES lineup would make some interesting versions of older songs, I bet.
Post by: goon525 on December 08, 2023, 08:00:02 PM
Post by: Brunno Nunes on December 08, 2023, 11:55:17 PM
Post by: Chris W on December 09, 2023, 10:24:47 AM
It was usually older material that was tried and dismissed.
Yes, Tunnel and Telegraph were usually alternated.
I'm not sure I would reply to a thread dedicated to me. I came on here to comment on the new live box set.
Post by: quizzaciously on December 09, 2023, 12:08:06 PM
I don't think so.
It was usually older material that was tried and dismissed.
Yes, Tunnel and Telegraph were usually alternated.
I'm not sure I would reply to a thread dedicated to me. I came on here to comment on the new live box set.
Oh never mind then, not every idea is a good idea.
Post by: Marnix on December 09, 2023, 12:33:49 PM
Were the shows chosen at random which were recorded for OTN or was it decided by Mark ? And which shows were allowed for a radio or tv broadcast ?
Post by: Chris W on December 09, 2023, 01:51:54 PM
I'm sure you have to book the film crews, recording gear etc well in advance. You also want to choose a nice venue to play in (Nimes) and know both band and audience are going to be on fire.
The only show I remember being for broadcast was Basel. There may have been others I have forgotten.
Post by: dmg on December 09, 2023, 02:20:39 PM
@Chris W: Do you remember any songs that were rehearsed for the OES tour, but never actually performed?
Completely coincidental I came across information today from the Christie's website: "According to tech tour notes, the Gibson Super 400 (YLT live guitar) was also assigned to the songs ‘Twisting By The Pool’ and Brownie McGhee’s ‘Rainy Rainy Day’, in readiness for their potential addition to the set list."
Post by: Chris W on December 09, 2023, 02:29:33 PM
Post by: dmg on December 09, 2023, 11:30:41 PM
I don't remember ever rehearsing those.
tbh I thought they both sounded strange choices myself but it was there in black and white. I think there are bound to be a few inaccuracies.
Post by: jbaent on December 10, 2023, 11:14:18 AM
I don't remember ever rehearsing those.
tbh I thought they both sounded strange choices myself but it was there in black and white. I think there are bound to be a few inaccuracies.
Specially Rainy day, which is not a DS song!!!!
Post by: Pottel on December 11, 2023, 08:04:26 AM
what were your favourite moments/cities/venues/shows on that tour
and which where the crappiest?
Post by: Pottel on December 11, 2023, 08:04:51 AM
Post by: Chris W on December 11, 2023, 10:05:38 AM
The whole thing was a blur. After he left I realised I hadn't taken any of it in. I hoped it wasn't going to be a one off, so I could enjoy it the next time. Luckily they called me again.
The only downer DS gig I think was the final show in Zaragoza. We flew in from Barcelona. I used to like to walk around a city before we played, get the vibe. I also found all the flying quite exhausting. The weather wasn't great (iirc), cool and grey. After the show we were bundled into a car and driven back to the airport to fly back to Barcelona. No party, no thanks, no hanging out with the crew to say goodbye after a very hard and long experience.
Best memories? Usually any spectacular venue in a very nice location - so probably Nimes and Verona.
Post by: peterromer on December 11, 2023, 11:21:00 AM
Nothing is random at this level.Yes, Denmark more precise at Gentofte Stadium, it was broadcasted live to radio. ;)
I'm sure you have to book the film crews, recording gear etc well in advance. You also want to choose a nice venue to play in (Nimes) and know both band and audience are going to be on fire.
The only show I remember being for broadcast was Basel. There may have been others I have forgotten.
Post by: dustyvalentino on December 11, 2023, 11:38:18 AM
Post by: dmg on December 11, 2023, 11:52:05 AM
Woburn Abbey for radio as well, Radio 1 made a big deal out of it at the time.
It's a pity they never sorted out the mix properly. Danny and Chris White are over and above everything else. Pity because it sounds one of the best shows of the tour.
Post by: Chris W on December 11, 2023, 12:59:30 PM
In the end, the gig required 110% every show, so I can't remember ever thinking that a show was going to be broadcast live - it generally felt like just another gig.
Post by: jbaent on December 11, 2023, 01:05:49 PM
Regarding Denmark and Woburn Abbey. Yes, I knew I either didn't make note at the time, or have forgotten since.
In the end, the gig required 110% every show, so I can't remember ever thinking that a show was going to be broadcast live - it generally felt like just another gig.
As far as I remember, broadcasted by TV, Basel June 92 and Nimes, I think October 92.
Radio, Copenhaguen and Wobburn Abbey, although Copenhaguen was broadcasted just a few songs as far as I recall.
Post by: peterromer on December 11, 2023, 04:38:44 PM
Regarding Denmark and Woburn Abbey. Yes, I knew I either didn't make note at the time, or have forgotten since.
In the end, the gig required 110% every show, so I can't remember ever thinking that a show was going to be broadcast live - it generally felt like just another gig.
As far as I remember, broadcasted by TV, Basel June 92 and Nimes, I think October 92.
Radio, Copenhaguen and Wobburn Abbey, although Copenhaguen was broadcasted just a few songs as far as I recall.
I think there was 6 tracks here in Denmark.
Post by: Pottel on December 11, 2023, 11:27:00 PM
The first time I met Paul was a Friday afternoon jam session, which turned out to be an informal audition.coming back to the original topic, not sure if you ever shared it on any of these 22 pages of DS box discussion, but now that you received the box, what do YOU think of it?
The whole thing was a blur. After he left I realised I hadn't taken any of it in. I hoped it wasn't going to be a one off, so I could enjoy it the next time. Luckily they called me again.
The only downer DS gig I think was the final show in Zaragoza. We flew in from Barcelona. I used to like to walk around a city before we played, get the vibe. I also found all the flying quite exhausting. The weather wasn't great (iirc), cool and grey. After the show we were bundled into a car and driven back to the airport to fly back to Barcelona. No party, no thanks, no hanging out with the crew to say goodbye after a very hard and long experience.
Best memories? Usually any spectacular venue in a very nice location - so probably Nimes and Verona.
Post by: Robson on December 12, 2023, 03:35:09 AM
Concerts recorded apart from On The Night
June 5, 1992 Earls Court London
June 20, 1992 Woburn Abbey Bedfordshire
June 28, 1992 Fussballstadion St. Jakob Basel (filmed concert)
July 27, 1992 Gentofte Stadium Copenhagen
July 30, 1992 Vallehovin Stadium Oslo
September 29, 1992 Les Arenes Nimes (filmed concert)
Post by: jbaent on December 12, 2023, 09:55:05 AM
I once wrote down for myself.
Concerts recorded apart from On The Night
June 5, 1992 Earls Court London
June 20, 1992 Woburn Abbey Bedfordshire
June 28, 1992 Fussballstadion St. Jakob Basel (filmed concert)
July 27, 1992 Gentofte Stadium Copenhagen
July 30, 1992 Vallehovin Stadium Oslo
September 29, 1992 Les Arenes Nimes (filmed concert)
Earls Court was a private recording made as a gif to Liz Whatley, from Damage Management, for his birthday, it is in no way proffesional recording at all, just a tape recorder plugged to the desk.
Oslo 92 seems the same, a tape recorded plugged to the desk or a monitors recording made by who knows who and why, it´s not proffesional either.
What you say as "filmed concert" might say "TV LIVE BROADCAST"
Post by: Chris W on December 12, 2023, 10:09:59 AM
coming back to the original topic, not sure if you ever shared it on any of these 22 pages of DS box discussion, but now that you received the box, what do YOU think of it?
I've listened to it once.
I experienced it 300+ times in real life, I don't need much of a recap.
Post by: quizzaciously on December 12, 2023, 10:53:11 AM
coming back to the original topic, not sure if you ever shared it on any of these 22 pages of DS box discussion, but now that you received the box, what do YOU think of it?
I've listened to it once.
I experienced it 300+ times in real life, I don't need much of a recap.
I think it perfectly describes the last DS gig in Zaragoza you wrote about earlier in this thread. After 300+ shows and more than a year of touring, who in his right mind would want to organise a party to celebrate the occasion of wrapping up? I just returned home after living in a foreign country for more than a year, which felt like a tour but without travelling and fun, and it was so exhausting, that the last thing I wanted to do was to celebrate it. Just too many other things to care about :-\
Post by: Chris W on December 12, 2023, 11:31:49 AM
I think it perfectly describes the last DS gig in Zaragoza you wrote about earlier in this thread. After 300+ shows and more than a year of touring, who in his right mind would want to organise a party to celebrate the occasion of wrapping up?
Everyone but Mark and John?
You want to thank the crew for all their hard work. It is a final moment to take it all in, the craziness, the extremes..... it is closure.
Instead we arrived back to a darkened, empty hotel In Barcelona.
I'm not a party animal, don't use drugs and don't drink to excess, but we had a post final gig party at the end of the McCartney tour and it was a glorious celebration of everything we achieved. Paul and Linda went around and thanked everyone personally for their hard work. And rightly so.
It's odd to me that in every thread in which you post you start from the POV that Mark is always right and everyone else is wrong.
Post by: iorch82 on December 12, 2023, 12:18:50 PM
I think it perfectly describes the last DS gig in Zaragoza you wrote about earlier in this thread. After 300+ shows and more than a year of touring, who in his right mind would want to organise a party to celebrate the occasion of wrapping up?
Everyone but Mark and John?
You want to thank the crew for all their hard work. It is a final moment to take it all in, the craziness, the extremes..... it is closure.
Instead we arrived back to a darkened, empty hotel In Barcelona.
I'm not a party animal, don't use drugs and don't drink to excess, but we had a post final gig party at the end of the McCartney tour and it was a glorious celebration of everything we achieved. Paul and Linda went around and thanked everyone personally for their hard work. And rightly so.
It's odd to me that in every thread in which you post you start from the POV that Mark is always right and everyone else is wrong.
I totally agree. It's such an cold-hearted behavior if you ask me. At the end of the day these people has been more or less your family for well over a year.
Post by: quizzaciously on December 12, 2023, 12:21:12 PM
I think it perfectly describes the last DS gig in Zaragoza you wrote about earlier in this thread. After 300+ shows and more than a year of touring, who in his right mind would want to organise a party to celebrate the occasion of wrapping up?
Everyone but Mark and John?
You want to thank the crew for all their hard work. It is a final moment to take it all in, the craziness, the extremes..... it is closure.
Instead we arrived back to a darkened, empty hotel In Barcelona.
I'm not a party animal, don't use drugs and don't drink to excess, but we had a post final gig party at the end of the McCartney tour and it was a glorious celebration of everything we achieved. Paul and Linda went around and thanked everyone personally for their hard work. And rightly so.
It's odd to me that in every thread in which you post you start from the POV that Mark is always right and everyone else is wrong.
I totally agree. It's such an cold-hearted behavior if you ask me. At the end of the day these people has been more or less your family for well over a year.
I just work for MK as an attorney part-time, never mind :lol
But seriously, I can perfectly understand your feelings and where you're coming from. It's indeed ridiculous not to mark the occasion of the end of such a long journey and the end of Dire Straits altogether, which I'm pretty sure Mark knew at the time it was coming to the end. It could be another reason not to be overly dramatic about it.
I'm just trying to look at the situation from every conceivable angle. Maybe it was the weather, or strange logistics (why not finish in one city anyway?), or build-up of emotions or fatigue, so I can understand all parties involved. Mark could easily be the only one who didn't want to acknowledge the end of things.
But this is where it always ends... With Mark. He had his reasons for behaving this way, and he dealt with the most pressure as well. He's not always right, but he's a human being with his life, decisions to be made, personal life, etc.. We sometimes act foolish at the moment and regret about it years later. Nobody's always right.
Post by: Chris W on December 12, 2023, 02:52:01 PM
I think Mark was in a bad place and wanted to get away from the tour and the tour personnel as quickly as possible.
I think professional people do the right thing though, whatever they feel. And the right thing to do was to personally thank the 8 band members, 150 odd crew, plus promoters and office staff, all the people who worked very, very hard to make the tour the success it was.
Kinda spoilt to just walk away thanking no one.
PS: Everyone knew from 1991 this was going to be Dire Straits swan song, the final tour, the end of the band.
Post by: Robson on December 12, 2023, 03:18:30 PM
Post by: rmarques821 on December 12, 2023, 03:42:59 PM
But no one forced him. He wanted this tour, he loved it.No, he didn't. How many more times do you need Chris and other band personnel to tell you that he was angry and bored 90% of the time? And even if you don't believe them, just listen to any interview of him in 91/92 or observe his behaviour during the 24 heures documentary or at all any concert from that time.
He did the tour only to escape his personal problems (failing marriage, divorce and his father's disease) and as a final cash grab.
Or take it from the man himself. Every time he's been asked about the 91/92 period, I've never heard him reply with affection or as it had been a good period in his life. It's either a negative, indifferent or deflecting answer.
"My favourite song is My Parties, from On Every Street."
"Oh yeah? I don't remember"
Post by: Robson on December 12, 2023, 03:47:59 PM
But no one forced him. He wanted this tour, he loved it.No, he didn't. How many more times do you need Chris and other band personnel to tell you that he was angry and bored 90% of the time? And even if you don't believe them, just listen to any interview of him in 91/92 or observe his behaviour during the 24 heures documentary or at all any concert from that time.
He did the tour only to escape his personal problems (failing marriage, divorce and his father's disease) and as a final cash grab.
I didn't say I didn't believe Chris. I'm trying to understand. We can talk this on the forum, right?
Post by: Chris W on December 12, 2023, 03:49:49 PM
But no one forced him. He wanted this tour, he loved it.
As above.
Only he (and maybe John) knows, but my feeling is he wanted to make sure the other guys in the band were financially OK.
He made the OES album, and it was traditional at the time to tour significantly to promote the album. Once the rehearsals started and the enormity of playing two hour shows for over a year dawned on him, I think he massively regretted the decision and as a result was very grumpy to say the least for the next 14 months.
PS: It's funny how people who weren't there claim to know he 'loved it'.
Post by: rmarques821 on December 12, 2023, 03:50:34 PM
Of course, my friend. I just don't understand how you can say he loved that tour when it's so obvious that he didn't.But no one forced him. He wanted this tour, he loved it.No, he didn't. How many more times do you need Chris and other band personnel to tell you that he was angry and bored 90% of the time? And even if you don't believe them, just listen to any interview of him in 91/92 or observe his behaviour during the 24 heures documentary or at all any concert from that time.
He did the tour only to escape his personal problems (failing marriage, divorce and his father's disease) and as a final cash grab.
I didn't say I didn't believe Chris. I'm trying to understand. We can talk this on the forum, right?
Post by: 2manyguitars on December 12, 2023, 03:55:21 PM
Doesn't excuse the apparent behaviour its just one of the many reasons......
Post by: Robson on December 12, 2023, 03:57:54 PM
Post by: iorch82 on December 12, 2023, 04:06:26 PM
I think we need to bear in mind the emotional impact of a 2nd divorce. Not to get to personal but my divorce left me a wreck, it shattered me. I cant imagine failing for a 2nd time.
Doesn't excuse the apparent behaviour its just one of the many reasons......
Well, imagine the economic impact. Mark's alimony bill given his millionaire status had to be absolutely brutal.
Post by: dustyvalentino on December 12, 2023, 05:57:46 PM
I think we need to bear in mind the emotional impact of a 2nd divorce. Not to get to personal but my divorce left me a wreck, it shattered me. I cant imagine failing for a 2nd time.
Doesn't excuse the apparent behaviour its just one of the many reasons......
Agreed, my divorce was absolutely the worst thing I've ever gone through.
In any case, the most shocking revelation is that MK apparently said that My Parties was his favourite song?! It's awful! When did he say that?
Post by: ds1984 on December 12, 2023, 06:46:24 PM
I think we need to bear in mind the emotional impact of a 2nd divorce. Not to get to personal but my divorce left me a wreck, it shattered me. I cant imagine failing for a 2nd time.
Doesn't excuse the apparent behaviour its just one of the many reasons......
Agreed, my divorce was absolutely the worst thing I've ever gone through.
In any case, the most shocking revelation is that MK apparently said that My Parties was his favourite song?! It's awful! When did he say that?
Nah I think you misunderstood, the first line ("My favourite song is My Parties, from On Every Street.") is said by the interviewer not Mark!
Post by: dustyvalentino on December 12, 2023, 06:47:21 PM
I think we need to bear in mind the emotional impact of a 2nd divorce. Not to get to personal but my divorce left me a wreck, it shattered me. I cant imagine failing for a 2nd time.
Doesn't excuse the apparent behaviour its just one of the many reasons......
Agreed, my divorce was absolutely the worst thing I've ever gone through.
In any case, the most shocking revelation is that MK apparently said that My Parties was his favourite song?! It's awful! When did he say that?
Nah I think you misunderstood, the first line ("My favourite song is My Parties, from On Every Street.") is said by the interviewer not Mark!
Phew!
Post by: localhero1986 on December 12, 2023, 06:53:10 PM
I once wrote down for myself.
Concerts recorded apart from On The Night
June 5, 1992 Earls Court London
June 20, 1992 Woburn Abbey Bedfordshire
June 28, 1992 Fussballstadion St. Jakob Basel (filmed concert)
July 27, 1992 Gentofte Stadium Copenhagen
July 30, 1992 Vallehovin Stadium Oslo
September 29, 1992 Les Arenes Nimes (filmed concert)
19th of September (Cava de' Tirreni Stadio Comunale, Italy) seems to be a soundboard recording as well. I do have it on CD as part of a non official CD box. It’s an incomplete recording though.
Post by: Pottel on December 12, 2023, 11:33:45 PM
now that is where you are wrong, the box is of course about more than just the OTN show, there is the brilliant Rainbow show and the complete Alchemy performance..coming back to the original topic, not sure if you ever shared it on any of these 22 pages of DS box discussion, but now that you received the box, what do YOU think of it?
I've listened to it once.
I experienced it 300+ times in real life, I don't need much of a recap.
Post by: Stiglar on December 13, 2023, 01:01:37 AM
I had a bootleg sometime ago that was a monitors/desk recording that was very dry (no:
/little audience noise)
The location was always incorrect or “unknown”
Has this ever been solved? From reading earlier in the thread it seems it’s Oslo? Is that correct?
How was the mystery solved?? Very curious about an old mystery!
Post by: jbaent on December 13, 2023, 07:15:35 AM
I’m sure this has been answered many times before but I have a bit of a gap in my years following MK
I had a bootleg sometime ago that was a monitors/desk recording that was very dry (no:
/little audience noise)
The location was always incorrect or “unknown”
Has this ever been solved? From reading earlier in the thread it seems it’s Oslo? Is that correct?
How was the mystery solved?? Very curious about an old mystery!
It's Oslo.
Post by: jbaent on December 13, 2023, 07:17:05 AM
now that is where you are wrong, the box is of course about more than just the OTN show, there is the brilliant Rainbow show and the complete Alchemy performance..coming back to the original topic, not sure if you ever shared it on any of these 22 pages of DS box discussion, but now that you received the box, what do YOU think of it?
I've listened to it once.
I experienced it 300+ times in real life, I don't need much of a recap.
I think Chris was never a DS fan, so probably his only interest would be the cd where he is playing it.
Post by: jbaent on December 13, 2023, 07:57:25 AM
I once wrote down for myself.
Concerts recorded apart from On The Night
June 5, 1992 Earls Court London
June 20, 1992 Woburn Abbey Bedfordshire
June 28, 1992 Fussballstadion St. Jakob Basel (filmed concert)
July 27, 1992 Gentofte Stadium Copenhagen
July 30, 1992 Vallehovin Stadium Oslo
September 29, 1992 Les Arenes Nimes (filmed concert)
19th of September (Cava de' Tirreni Stadio Comunale, Italy) seems to be a soundboard recording as well. I do have it on CD as part of a non official CD box. It’s an incomplete recording though.
The only Cava de Tirreno known recording is a poor audience recording, so or you are confusing a soundbard recording (probably Copenhagen or Woburn Abbey) or you have an unique and unknown version recording of that show.
Post by: Chris W on December 13, 2023, 10:06:16 AM
Post by: Chris W on December 13, 2023, 10:09:58 AM
I think Chris was never a DS fan, so probably his only interest would be the cd where he is playing it.
I go into projects with enthusiasm and an open mind. I knew ahead of time that Mark was notoriously harsh on drummers.
In the event, as has been documented by people like John Illsley and Ed Bicknel, it was a very hard tour with not a lot of joy attached.
So that has coloured my thoughts on listening to Dire Straits in general. I listened to the 92 recordings with a mix of pride and bad memories.
Post by: dustyvalentino on December 13, 2023, 10:23:35 AM
I think Chris was never a DS fan, so probably his only interest would be the cd where he is playing it.
I go into projects with enthusiasm and an open mind. I knew ahead of time that Mark was notoriously harsh on drummers.
In the event, as has been documented by people like John Illsley and Ed Bicknel, it was a very hard tour with not a lot of joy attached.
So that has coloured my thoughts on listening to Dire Straits in general. I listened to the 92 recordings with a mix of pride and bad memories.
It's a bit of a strange time for us fans. For many of us (including me), it was the period where we really fell in love with the band, and watching and listening to the shows that did make their way out showed a group of musicians at the top of their game and seemingly enjoying themselves onstage.
Although there were some indications that all was not well in the DS camp (Vox magazine feature), it's only in subsequent years that we have really learned about how unhappy MK was and the effect that this seemingly had on band and crew morale.
So from a fan's perspective, I have bittersweet feelings about that tour now.
Post by: quizzaciously on December 13, 2023, 11:13:56 AM
I think Chris was never a DS fan, so probably his only interest would be the cd where he is playing it.
I go into projects with enthusiasm and an open mind. I knew ahead of time that Mark was notoriously harsh on drummers.
In the event, as has been documented by people like John Illsley and Ed Bicknel, it was a very hard tour with not a lot of joy attached.
So that has coloured my thoughts on listening to Dire Straits in general. I listened to the 92 recordings with a mix of pride and bad memories.
It's a bit of a strange time for us fans. For many of us (including me), it was the period where we really fell in love with the band, and watching and listening to the shows that did make their way out showed a group of musicians at the top of their game and seemingly enjoying themselves onstage.
Although there were some indications that all was not well in the DS camp (Vox magazine feature), it's only in subsequent years that we have really learned about how unhappy MK was and the effect that this seemingly had on band and crew morale.
So from a fan's perspective, I have bittersweet feelings about that tour now.
But who said it needs to be all roses and kittens anyway? Whatever happens within the band, if they still deliver a great result, it's a mark of outstanding dedication and professionalism, which only amplifies your words about fans (including me) loving this period. Besides, the band is called Dire Straits, and their most famous songs are about overcoming difficulties or turning negativity into positivity, so it's quite ironic how their last tour was in effect a 1.5-year-long therapy session/charity project in support of John and Alan.
Post by: Chris W on December 13, 2023, 12:30:18 PM
Mark would have gained the most, with his songwriting royalties, then John with a financial interest in Dire Straits Corp.
The rest of us (other than Mark, John, Alan and Guy) were 'side musicians' being paid a pre-agreed fee.
And yes, you make the best of the hand you are dealt - so we all put out 110% every night, especially looking out at the fans who had paid a lot of money and often traveled far to see the show.
There really is no joy or satisfaction in going through the motions for 14 months, so none of us did.
Post by: tomtom51 on December 13, 2023, 02:49:11 PM
Well the core of the band was really - Mark, John, Alan and Guy.
Mark would have gained the most, with his songwriting royalties, then John with a financial interest in Dire Straits Corp.
The rest of us (other than Mark, John, Alan and Guy) were 'side musicians' being paid a pre-agreed fee.
And yes, you make the best of the hand you are dealt - so we all put out 110% every night, especially looking out at the fans who had paid a lot of money and often traveled far to see the show.
There really is no joy or satisfaction in going through the motions for 14 months, so none of us did.
And I as a long time DS fan am all the more grateful for the unbelievable performance you gave us on a night in April of 1992. It was obvious you were fully committed to deliver the best show. Thanks again.
Post by: Chris W on December 13, 2023, 03:22:29 PM
Post by: Love Expresso on December 13, 2023, 07:22:58 PM
LE
Post by: localhero1986 on December 13, 2023, 07:39:26 PM
I once wrote down for myself.
Concerts recorded apart from On The Night
June 5, 1992 Earls Court London
June 20, 1992 Woburn Abbey Bedfordshire
June 28, 1992 Fussballstadion St. Jakob Basel (filmed concert)
July 27, 1992 Gentofte Stadium Copenhagen
July 30, 1992 Vallehovin Stadium Oslo
September 29, 1992 Les Arenes Nimes (filmed concert)
19th of September (Cava de' Tirreni Stadio Comunale, Italy) seems to be a soundboard recording as well. I do have it on CD as part of a non official CD box. It’s an incomplete recording though.
The only Cava de Tirreno known recording is a poor audience recording, so or you are confusing a soundbard recording (probably Copenhagen or Woburn Abbey) or you have an unique and unknown version recording of that show.
I got this one (disc 5), the sound quality is perfect. https://www.discogs.com/release/14898250-Dire-Straits-The-Broadcast-Collection-1979-1992
Post by: jbaent on December 13, 2023, 07:45:59 PM
I once wrote down for myself.
Concerts recorded apart from On The Night
June 5, 1992 Earls Court London
June 20, 1992 Woburn Abbey Bedfordshire
June 28, 1992 Fussballstadion St. Jakob Basel (filmed concert)
July 27, 1992 Gentofte Stadium Copenhagen
July 30, 1992 Vallehovin Stadium Oslo
September 29, 1992 Les Arenes Nimes (filmed concert)
19th of September (Cava de' Tirreni Stadio Comunale, Italy) seems to be a soundboard recording as well. I do have it on CD as part of a non official CD box. It’s an incomplete recording though.
The only Cava de Tirreno known recording is a poor audience recording, so or you are confusing a soundbard recording (probably Copenhagen or Woburn Abbey) or you have an unique and unknown version recording of that show.
I got this one (disc 5), the sound quality is perfect. https://www.discogs.com/release/14898250-Dire-Straits-The-Broadcast-Collection-1979-1992
That's Oslo 92, it is a mistake.
Post by: localhero1986 on December 13, 2023, 07:48:07 PM
Post by: Pottel on December 14, 2023, 08:59:01 AM
what Vox magazine feature?
I think Chris was never a DS fan, so probably his only interest would be the cd where he is playing it.
I go into projects with enthusiasm and an open mind. I knew ahead of time that Mark was notoriously harsh on drummers.
In the event, as has been documented by people like John Illsley and Ed Bicknel, it was a very hard tour with not a lot of joy attached.
So that has coloured my thoughts on listening to Dire Straits in general. I listened to the 92 recordings with a mix of pride and bad memories.
It's a bit of a strange time for us fans. For many of us (including me), it was the period where we really fell in love with the band, and watching and listening to the shows that did make their way out showed a group of musicians at the top of their game and seemingly enjoying themselves onstage.
Although there were some indications that all was not well in the DS camp (Vox magazine feature), it's only in subsequent years that we have really learned about how unhappy MK was and the effect that this seemingly had on band and crew morale.
So from a fan's perspective, I have bittersweet feelings about that tour now.
Post by: Pottel on December 14, 2023, 09:20:36 AM
Well the core of the band was really - Mark, John, Alan and Guy.without going into details, can the renumerations from the Straits and Macca families be compared, or are we talking huge differences?
Mark would have gained the most, with his songwriting royalties, then John with a financial interest in Dire Straits Corp.
The rest of us (other than Mark, John, Alan and Guy) were 'side musicians' being paid a pre-agreed fee.
And yes, you make the best of the hand you are dealt - so we all put out 110% every night, especially looking out at the fans who had paid a lot of money and often traveled far to see the show.
There really is no joy or satisfaction in going through the motions for 14 months, so none of us did.
also, you did not reply on the question of what you think of the rest of the box, i.e. the non OTN tour stuff.
also, in the same light, who would be your favourite type of drummer from the DS world, Pick or Terry? i know, totally different styles, but i ain't no drummer but you are...
Post by: Chris W on December 14, 2023, 10:09:18 AM
Although he wouldn't have sounded right on Money For Nothing or On Every Street.
I haven't listened to the other re-issue discs.
Post by: dustyvalentino on December 14, 2023, 10:29:44 AM
what Vox magazine feature?
I think Chris was never a DS fan, so probably his only interest would be the cd where he is playing it.
I go into projects with enthusiasm and an open mind. I knew ahead of time that Mark was notoriously harsh on drummers.
In the event, as has been documented by people like John Illsley and Ed Bicknel, it was a very hard tour with not a lot of joy attached.
So that has coloured my thoughts on listening to Dire Straits in general. I listened to the 92 recordings with a mix of pride and bad memories.
It's a bit of a strange time for us fans. For many of us (including me), it was the period where we really fell in love with the band, and watching and listening to the shows that did make their way out showed a group of musicians at the top of their game and seemingly enjoying themselves onstage.
Although there were some indications that all was not well in the DS camp (Vox magazine feature), it's only in subsequent years that we have really learned about how unhappy MK was and the effect that this seemingly had on band and crew morale.
So from a fan's perspective, I have bittersweet feelings about that tour now.
It was a magazine article that suggested that all was not well with the band. Ed calls the show boring and admits they had to cancel shows. Someone, Phil I think, says MK can be an ogre, stuff like that.
I bought it at the time but can't find it now, Jeroen has one page on his site.
(https://www.oneverybootleg.nl/VOX1992.jpg)
Post by: Chris W on December 14, 2023, 11:17:14 AM
No shows were 'cancelled' in my experience. What happened was that some shows (really just Australia and America) were pencilled in (TBA) and they never went on sale.
The problem was that the top man on the tour was in a bad place. The mood starts at the top and trickles down. Important crew members who had been with DS from almost the very beginning all said it was the most stressful, least happy tour they'd ever worked on.
Post by: dmg on December 14, 2023, 11:30:43 AM
At least they all got a ghetto blaster thrown in! :lol
Post by: dustyvalentino on December 14, 2023, 11:38:26 AM
Interesting article - thanks Dusty.
At least they all got a ghetto blaster thrown in! :lol
I wish I could find the magazine, the rest of the article is just as good.
MK is really grump and says something like "People can write that the Red Hot Turds or whatever are really great and Dire Straits are finished, but these kids can't go out and fill Wembley stadium". I assume he is referring to the Red Hot Chilli Peppers who did indeed go on to sell out Wembley stadium.
Post by: quizzaciously on December 14, 2023, 12:20:58 PM
I don't think the show was 'boring' for the band, or that anyone other than Mark and John was bothered about 'cancelled' shows.
No shows were 'cancelled' in my experience. What happened was that some shows (really just Australia and America) were pencilled in (TBA) and they never went on sale.
The problem was that the top man on the tour was in a bad place. The mood starts at the top and trickles down. Important crew members who had been with DS from almost the very beginning all said it was the most stressful, least happy tour they'd ever worked on.
At least Mark's last solo tour was the least stressful, happiest and most successful tour he'd ever had (according to his manager), so I guess somebody learns from his mistakes after all!
Post by: jbaent on December 14, 2023, 01:19:13 PM
Interesting article - thanks Dusty.
At least they all got a ghetto blaster thrown in! :lol
I wish I could find the magazine, the rest of the article is just as good.
I bought a copy not long ago in Ebay, actually there are some copies still available there:
https://www.ebay.es/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p4432023.m570.l1313&_nkw=vox+magazine+dire+straits&_sacat=0
Post by: Matchstickman on December 14, 2023, 08:13:31 PM
Post by: quizzaciously on December 14, 2023, 10:45:57 PM
It has always felt odd that Mark overdid the BIA tour, grew fatigued with the band, and then did the same thing all over five years later. It must have snowballed out of control once he displayed willingness to resurrect the band. Many people and strong forces pushing for more shows and bigger venues, presumably...
Exactly, that's why I'm always trying to "defend" MK, but what I mean is that anybody in his shoes would probably do the same, given the circumstances, half of which are not even known to the public. Nearly every questionable decision can be properly explained using even all that we know. And in the long run, it seems like he did everything right in the situation, that's why I may come across as the guy who thinks everything MK does is always right. He's just a smart guy, look where he's now.
History is history, but I always felt it could be a better idea to leave DS after BiA and make On Every Street the first solo album, how cool is that? As Chris said, a 14-month tour is an overkill, it's unhealthy and not normal. It's not normal to go on tour for so long that marriages and friendships get destroyed as a result of it as if it's some kind of war campaign and not just playing some popular music for people. It's like being overweight or being an alcoholic. A 14-month tour non-stop, come on.
UPD: I know Chris hasn't said it exactly like this, don't throw tomatoes at me, but it is just my interpretation of his words and a general approximation of how the tour felt for the crew. If it felt like this for a musician, I can't even start to imagine how it felt to a crew who needed to do all this shit for so long without even being face to face with "the boss" once. It's ridiculous.
Post by: milicz on December 14, 2023, 11:11:13 PM
Sent from my XQ-DQ62 using Tapatalk
Post by: 2manyguitars on December 14, 2023, 11:21:09 PM
Post by: quizzaciously on December 14, 2023, 11:34:00 PM
You're justifying or explaining his actions, that doesn't make them right or wrong. Not doing an end of tour party? Pretty shitty regardless of what was going on, that doesn't make it wrong or right.
Sent from my XQ-DQ62 using Tapatalk
In this situation, I would employ proof by contradiction. Imagine, you're Mark Knopfler at the end of a long-ass tour (can't call it any other way), you're in a bad place, and everything's falling apart, everybody's exhausted. Are you going to end the tour with fake smiles and a fake hugs party? Do you need a party anyway? Just to celebrate the fact you've just wasted a year and a half playing the same thing over and over trying to escape from reality, only to return and realise nothing's changed? Mark said it himself, I'm not making this up.
I desperately want to ask Mark all this, but as you know he's not talking about these things much, probably for a reason. So all I can do is guess and try to relive the situation as if it happened to me. And the absence of a tour party is a major red flag to me indicating something was fundamentally compromised during all this. Big endeavours like this are usually celebrated at least in some shape or form, it's not a weekend in a theme park. Another question is could he do something about it afterwards? Do a tour party behindhand? But it's even worse than not doing it in the first place. It's a zugzwang.
Either way, the reality is always way, way, way more complicated, and saying "no party = Mark is an asshole" is just plain lazy to me.
Post by: quizzaciously on December 15, 2023, 12:16:39 AM
You're justifying or explaining his actions, that doesn't make them right or wrong. Not doing an end of tour party? Pretty shitty regardless of what was going on, that doesn't make it wrong or right.
Sent from my XQ-DQ62 using Tapatalk
In this situation, I would employ proof by contradiction. Imagine, you're Mark Knopfler at the end of a long-ass tour (can't call it any other way), you're in a bad place, and everything's falling apart, everybody's exhausted. Are you going to end the tour with fake smiles and a fake hugs party? Do you need a party anyway? Just to celebrate the fact you've just wasted a year and a half playing the same thing over and over trying to escape from reality, only to return and realise nothing's changed? Mark said it himself, I'm not making this up.
I desperately want to ask Mark all this, but as you know he's not talking about these things much, probably for a reason. So all I can do is guess and try to relive the situation as if it happened to me. And the absence of a tour party is a major red flag to me indicating something was fundamentally compromised during all this. Big endeavours like this are usually celebrated at least in some shape or form, it's not a weekend in a theme park. Another question is could he do something about it afterwards? Do a tour party behindhand? But it's even worse than not doing it in the first place. It's a zugzwang.
Either way, the reality is always way, way, way more complicated, and saying "no party = Mark is an asshole" is just plain lazy to me.
More like yes, Mark was under some pressure at the time after 6 years without a proper album after a hugely successful magnum opus, not knowing what to do next, releasing miscellaneous or semi-miscellaneous stuff, playing rhythm guitar for Eric Clapton, contemplating the reunion of the band, and things snowballed out of control.
Also, Mark felt he needed to do it for his bandmates and audience, had contractual obligations, probably knew he wouldn't be able to top Brothers In Arms no matter what he was doing, and was at the wheel assembling the team of top-notch musicians and crew, writing songs, playing the guitar, singing, doing interviews, making decisions, undergoing major personal life problems, and still managed (with help of hundreds of people) to put out a brilliant show and consistent quality night after night, day after day, all without major mistakes and missing a single date, while sometimes not being aware of where you are in the world, and which city you're playing today (confirmed by Guy in his diary).
The man deserves praise more than he deserves criticism, and small things like the proverbial sausage story or the absence of a tour party are just not registering on my radar of appreciation. Try to do what he did, and 99.99999999% of people would fail without even starting. End of rant.
Post by: Chris W on December 15, 2023, 08:22:03 AM
Mark made a huge bounty from the OES tour. Heck, they just re-released the recordings to fill the bank balance even more.
The tour was a money making exercise, pure and simple, hence the article talking about the 'disaster' Australian tour, which actually was very successful from an audience/music point if view. Then John moaning about expensive hotels.
Post by: Chris W on December 15, 2023, 08:25:33 AM
The man deserves praise more than he deserves criticism, and small things like the proverbial sausage story or the absence of a tour party are just not registering on my radar of appreciation. Try to do what he did, and 99.99999999% of people would fail without even starting. End of rant.
Most of what you post is guess work.
In the end I don't really care about a tour party, I just brought it up as an indication of how dysfunctional Mark was during the tour.
Whatever mood you are in, it is just common politeness to thank the 150 or so people who just helped you sell out huge outdoor stadiums, making large amounts of money for your future lifestyle.
Post by: jbaent on December 15, 2023, 08:35:40 AM
The man deserves praise more than he deserves criticism, and small things like the proverbial sausage story or the absence of a tour party are just not registering on my radar of appreciation. Try to do what he did, and 99.99999999% of people would fail without even starting. End of rant.
Most of what you post is guess work.
In the end I don't really care about a tour party, I just brought it up as an indication of how dysfunctional Mark was during the tour.
Whatever mood you are in, it is just common politeness to thank the 150 or so people who just helped you sell out huge outdoor stadiums, making large amounts of money for your future lifestyle.
He did thanked all the musicians and crew during the Zaragoza concert, there is an audience recording of it and you can hear how he thanks everyone but, yes, I agree that he should had made it more personally than that.
Post by: quizzaciously on December 15, 2023, 09:26:19 AM
The wealth of musicians is greatly overrated as well. I remember people like Sir Van Morrison, Chuck Berry or even Tommy Emmanuel cutting the BS and saying clear as day "I'm still playing music to earn money". Surprise, surprise, people want to get some dough for their work and eat something for lunch, so I don't get why the tour didn't need to be a "money-making exercise" as well as a celebration of music. Dire Straits is not a charitable organization.
Thank you once again for attacking me personally ("sob stories", "guess work", etc.), I try not to take it seriously. Your insights and photos are incredibly valuable and interesting, opening a shade behind this tour a little bit. The tour itself deserves a whole movie or a book about it, not just some posting on a forum, and the fact we are still discussing it today means something. The drama behind the last DS tour is just too interesting and still has a lot of unanswered questions.
Post by: quizzaciously on December 15, 2023, 09:48:41 AM
The man deserves praise more than he deserves criticism, and small things like the proverbial sausage story or the absence of a tour party are just not registering on my radar of appreciation. Try to do what he did, and 99.99999999% of people would fail without even starting. End of rant.
Most of what you post is guess work.
In the end I don't really care about a tour party, I just brought it up as an indication of how dysfunctional Mark was during the tour.
Whatever mood you are in, it is just common politeness to thank the 150 or so people who just helped you sell out huge outdoor stadiums, making large amounts of money for your future lifestyle.
He did thanked all the musicians and crew during the Zaragoza concert, there is an audience recording of it and you can hear how he thanks everyone but, yes, I agree that he should had made it more personally than that.
But why? Of course, you've got Keanu Reeves gifting Rоlex watches to his crew, Paul McCartney organising great after-tour parties, and Mark Knopfler being an a-hole, only writing songs like this, playing guitar like this, that helped to propagate the band to this height and make the tour possible in the first place and employ so many people, and make millions of people happy. I mean just give him a break, he's just an ordinary person living an extraordinary life like any other genius.
Other geniuses are not saints either. I remember reading recently about Paul McCartney forcing all his crew into a vegan diet. Imagine being a truck driver or stage engineer working 24/7 and being forced to eat lettuce for lunch just because your megastar said so. I would say GFU, but hey it's Paul McCartney so I guess some compromises are inevitable. And that's only one small microscopic example.
Post by: Pottel on December 15, 2023, 10:03:23 AM
agree.
The man deserves praise more than he deserves criticism, and small things like the proverbial sausage story or the absence of a tour party are just not registering on my radar of appreciation. Try to do what he did, and 99.99999999% of people would fail without even starting. End of rant.
Most of what you post is guess work.
In the end I don't really care about a tour party, I just brought it up as an indication of how dysfunctional Mark was during the tour.
Whatever mood you are in, it is just common politeness to thank the 150 or so people who just helped you sell out huge outdoor stadiums, making large amounts of money for your future lifestyle.
Post by: Knut on December 15, 2023, 11:32:06 AM
Dear Chris, with all due respect, everything being posted here is guesswork, not just my posts. It's a forum. We don't have any financial reports and barely even have first-hand evidence from the people responsible for the tour the most. John Illsley in his book about Dire Straits described the whole tour in a couple of pages, Mark acts like it never happened at all, and we welcome the re-release of On The Night as a miracle because it's the first change since its release up until this moment in 30 years.
The wealth of musicians is greatly overrated as well. I remember people like Sir Van Morrison, Chuck Berry or even Tommy Emmanuel cutting the BS and saying clear as day "I'm still playing music to earn money". Surprise, surprise, people want to get some dough for their work and eat something for lunch, so I don't get why the tour didn't need to be a "money-making exercise" as well as a celebration of music. Dire Straits is not a charitable organization.
Thank you once again for attacking me personally ("sob stories", "guess work", etc.), I try not to take it seriously. Your insights and photos are incredibly valuable and interesting, opening a shade behind this tour a little bit. The tour itself deserves a whole movie or a book about it, not just some posting on a forum, and the fact we are still discussing it today means something. The drama behind the last DS tour is just too interesting and still has a lot of unanswered questions.
The point is that you can just as easily flip these things around. You claim he did everything right. Maybe he did everything wrong? As you said, it's all guesswork, and there's no reason why the guesses should be in one direction or the other. GIven what we know, I think it's pretty safe to say that there were plenty of mistakes made. It might not have been a good idea to tour at all, in the long run. But, it would be weird if they didn't make any good moves, either.
I should also add that the OES tour wasn't all that long compared to what many other artists do. Proof: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_concert_tours - so no need to exaggerate the fact that it was 14 months long (+ prep). It's actually quite common.
Maybe you live in a different country, but around here, we have many people leave their families for a few weeks at the time to go work offshore. I have yet to hear of this being an issue, simply because everything is carefully planned and the whole concept and it's potential issues (i.e. related to personal relations) are reasonably well understood. Just as you would imagine MK & crew would plan the OES tour properly, and be well aware of their own experience from the BIA tour and also the tours done by other artists (pretty sure MK is friends with some of those and would have been able to ask for advice if needed). If this indeed took it's toll on some personal relations, then that's because of bad decisions being made (at least in hindsight).
"...and things snowballed out of control." - Well, who's in charge of that, if it's true? MK, no?
Post by: jbaent on December 15, 2023, 12:33:43 PM
The tour itself deserves a whole movie or a book about it, not just some posting on a forum, and the fact we are still discussing it today means something. The drama behind the last DS tour is just too interesting and still has a lot of unanswered questions.
For me that movie already exists and it is the 24 heures documentary from Canal Plus France, which pictures very well many of the things Chris told us, about the gangs, MK's mood, etc. When I saw that documentary back in the day I remember it felt sad and like a tour they might be looking forward to end no matter what was waiting in home...
Post by: dmg on December 15, 2023, 12:54:15 PM
agree.
The man deserves praise more than he deserves criticism, and small things like the proverbial sausage story or the absence of a tour party are just not registering on my radar of appreciation. Try to do what he did, and 99.99999999% of people would fail without even starting. End of rant.
Most of what you post is guess work.
In the end I don't really care about a tour party, I just brought it up as an indication of how dysfunctional Mark was during the tour.
Whatever mood you are in, it is just common politeness to thank the 150 or so people who just helped you sell out huge outdoor stadiums, making large amounts of money for your future lifestyle.
I also agree. I've said before that I don't think I'd like Mark as a person, certainly not in the DS days anyway. It doesn't stop me liking his music though.
He never had a party after the BIA tour either. You can even see him after the show running off stage, jumping into a Porsche and driving away during the broadcast. The difference there was they had played 20 nights at the same venue in Sydney and according to Jack Sonni they had a good time windsurfing every day!
Post by: rmarques821 on December 15, 2023, 01:20:11 PM
I'm not sure where you got that idea. 14-month tours are completely normal and even desirable for all top bands in the World.It has always felt odd that Mark overdid the BIA tour, grew fatigued with the band, and then did the same thing all over five years later. It must have snowballed out of control once he displayed willingness to resurrect the band. Many people and strong forces pushing for more shows and bigger venues, presumably...
History is history, but I always felt it could be a better idea to leave DS after BiA and make On Every Street the first solo album, how cool is that? As Chris said, a 14-month tour is an overkill, it's unhealthy and not normal. It's not normal to go on tour for so long that marriages and friendships get destroyed as a result of it as if it's some kind of war campaign and not just playing some popular music for people. It's like being overweight or being an alcoholic. A 14-month tour non-stop, come on.
Post by: superval99 on December 15, 2023, 01:23:38 PM
Post by: quizzaciously on December 15, 2023, 01:28:03 PM
I'm not sure where you got that idea. 14-month tours are completely normal and even desirable for all top bands in the World.It has always felt odd that Mark overdid the BIA tour, grew fatigued with the band, and then did the same thing all over five years later. It must have snowballed out of control once he displayed willingness to resurrect the band. Many people and strong forces pushing for more shows and bigger venues, presumably...
History is history, but I always felt it could be a better idea to leave DS after BiA and make On Every Street the first solo album, how cool is that? As Chris said, a 14-month tour is an overkill, it's unhealthy and not normal. It's not normal to go on tour for so long that marriages and friendships get destroyed as a result of it as if it's some kind of war campaign and not just playing some popular music for people. It's like being overweight or being an alcoholic. A 14-month tour non-stop, come on.
Okay, I start to get it. Going away from family for 1.5 years, and breaking up with wives and friends after the fact is completely normal, not partying after a tour where everybody was both exhausted and had enough fun in the process and paid well is sacrilegious. Understood.
Post by: rmarques821 on December 15, 2023, 01:37:14 PM
Not really. You didn't understand the point of what I said and instead resorted to a defensive, sarcastic comment.I'm not sure where you got that idea. 14-month tours are completely normal and even desirable for all top bands in the World.It has always felt odd that Mark overdid the BIA tour, grew fatigued with the band, and then did the same thing all over five years later. It must have snowballed out of control once he displayed willingness to resurrect the band. Many people and strong forces pushing for more shows and bigger venues, presumably...
History is history, but I always felt it could be a better idea to leave DS after BiA and make On Every Street the first solo album, how cool is that? As Chris said, a 14-month tour is an overkill, it's unhealthy and not normal. It's not normal to go on tour for so long that marriages and friendships get destroyed as a result of it as if it's some kind of war campaign and not just playing some popular music for people. It's like being overweight or being an alcoholic. A 14-month tour non-stop, come on.
Okay, I start to get it. Going away from family for 1.5 years, and breaking up with wives and friends after the fact is completely normal, not partying after a tour where everybody was both exhausted and had enough fun in the process and paid well is sacrilegious. Understood.
Post by: quizzaciously on December 15, 2023, 01:40:44 PM
I think Mark is a completely different person now from the DS days. Maybe it was Kitty who changed him. :)
People don't change I'm afraid. Especially considering he was in his mid-40s at the time. The circumstances can change, though, and considering where MK is now (independent, successful, prolific, and still able to walk in the streets unrecognised) he's done a great job changing the circumstances. But the mind is still the same, I can guarantee it 100%. I never met anyone in my life who truly changed their personality, most are trying to fix the surroundings instead, which is a better idea in my book. Meeting the right woman who's a great match for you is the best way to change your life indeed.
Post by: superval99 on December 15, 2023, 01:47:26 PM
I think Mark is a completely different person now from the DS days. Maybe it was Kitty who changed him. :)
People don't change I'm afraid. Especially considering he was in his mid-40s at the time. The circumstances can change, though, and considering where MK is now (independent, successful, prolific, and still able to walk in the streets unrecognised) he's done a great job changing the circumstances. But the mind is still the same, I can guarantee it 100%. I never met anyone in my life who truly changed their life, most are trying to fix the surroundings instead, which is a better idea in my book. Meeting the right woman who's a great match for you is the best way to change your life indeed.
Yes, I'm sure he met the right woman to change his life and he certainly appears to be happier these days. He and his other bandmembers seem to be good friends too - most of them have been with him for around 30 years and Guy even longer!
Post by: Robson on December 15, 2023, 02:20:54 PM
That's a very nice punch line :) I'm coming back to Tunnel Of Love with On The Night. God, what a beautiful version.
Post by: hunter v2.0 on December 15, 2023, 02:25:41 PM
@Quizzaciously: Can you just stop already? The rants and conjecturing and stuff? It is painful to read. And FYI: People do change.
Post by: wakeywakey on December 15, 2023, 03:24:37 PM
I hope 2.0 is a vast improvement :lol
Post by: Robson on December 15, 2023, 03:36:00 PM
Hi, guys and gals. Me hunter :) I didn't plan to return; it's nice out there, off SoMe. But I just had to:
@Quizzaciously: Can you just stop already? The rants and conjecturing and stuff? It is painful to read. And FYI: People do change.
For me it is not painful. Contrary :)
Post by: quizzaciously on December 15, 2023, 03:44:17 PM
Hi, guys and gals. Me hunter :) I didn't plan to return; it's nice out there, off SoMe. But I just had to:
@Quizzaciously: Can you just stop already? The rants and conjecturing and stuff? It is painful to read. And FYI: People do change.
Then prove me wrong instead of attacking me personally and telling me what to do. On this forum, I've been a target for such attacks for a long time, and even left AMIT because of that, other people left the forum because of that, and then I returned, and I see you return. And now I'm enjoying the marvellous attempts of Chris Whitten to call me an idiot without actually doing so. But it's not how discussion works, you see.
If people DO change, why has nobody on this forum ever changed? I've been a regular visitor and contributor here for more than a decade maybe, and nobody ever changed here either. You can take a 10-year-old post from a user and see no real change. If people do change, why does Mark keep telling the same things in interviews over and over for 40 years now? Give me examples, give me thoughts, give me analysis, not a middle finger.
Post by: border_reiver on December 15, 2023, 04:16:02 PM
I've enjoyed this thread immensely since the start of it. Let's keep it that way. :)
Post by: quizzaciously on December 15, 2023, 04:26:01 PM
The point is that you can just as easily flip these things around. You claim he did everything right. Maybe he did everything wrong? As you said, it's all guesswork, and there's no reason why the guesses should be in one direction or the other. GIven what we know, I think it's pretty safe to say that there were plenty of mistakes made. It might not have been a good idea to tour at all, in the long run. But, it would be weird if they didn't make any good moves, either.
I should also add that the OES tour wasn't all that long compared to what many other artists do. Proof: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_concert_tours - so no need to exaggerate the fact that it was 14 months long (+ prep). It's actually quite common.
Maybe you live in a different country, but around here, we have many people leave their families for a few weeks at the time to go work offshore. I have yet to hear of this being an issue, simply because everything is carefully planned and the whole concept and it's potential issues (i.e. related to personal relations) are reasonably well understood. Just as you would imagine MK & crew would plan the OES tour properly, and be well aware of their own experience from the BIA tour and also the tours done by other artists (pretty sure MK is friends with some of those and would have been able to ask for advice if needed). If this indeed took it's toll on some personal relations, then that's because of bad decisions being made (at least in hindsight).
"...and things snowballed out of control." - Well, who's in charge of that, if it's true? MK, no?
That's a good question. I guess you can control a snowball, but you can't be in charge of an avalanche when it happens. You just accept it and prevent it from happening again if you get lucky enough to survive. I mean a man like MK can potentially have control over many things, but there are also financial, contractual, and psychological obligations, physical limitations, build-up of obligations, emotions, fatigue, problems with private life, family, and a million different factors.
That's why I'm trying to say MK is a human after all, and yes, mistakes are what make us humans, but it's how you react to mistakes and deal with them later on that matters. Judging by the fact we haven't heard anything from Dire Straits from 1993 (live at the BBC album released to please the contract doesn't count), and the fact the titular hero of this forum barely returns to this band in any shape or form, and that everyone agrees it's likely gone for good, he doesn't want this avalanche to repeat.
As for long tours, I still don't think it's a good idea to tour for so long. Why not do fewer shows or tours, and just spread it across a longer period? Like Bob Dylan, like Van Morrison. Mark got stuck in the album-tour formula and it's one of the major reasons he stopped touring now I think, apart from health and other concerns. Because if he releases an album, he needs to tour with as many shows as possible, it's what he has been doing for all his artistic life. Album, tour, album, tour, album, tour. And the tour has to be big because kids these days can't do it, but Mark sure can.
Sting expressed similar feelings towards large-scale tours of The Police. Marriages breaking down, tension building and spilling over the top, and band members barely surviving the experience themselves. It's all a build-up of a lot of things, I don't think anyone has ever dreamed about doing 365 shows a year. Music is not a sport, but damn, it feels like it sometimes is a sport with all this "who's bigger" attitude and measurements of revenue figures, managers and hunger for money.
Post by: hunter v2.0 on December 15, 2023, 05:04:05 PM
Post by: superval99 on December 15, 2023, 05:40:49 PM
Jesus, Mary and Joseph ::)
Welcome back Hunter! ;D
Post by: Matchstickman on December 15, 2023, 07:16:18 PM
14 months of touring is extreme, regardless of other bands. A marathon or a military tour in a foreign land is extremely demanding on body and mind regardless of how many other runners or military personnel there are.
The OES tour was the tour that BIA could have been but never quite was. They must always have been aware of the fact that they could have done a stadium tour in 1985. It would have been more logical.
Post by: Matchstickman on December 15, 2023, 08:24:20 PM
Of course we do not know, but a combination of playing live (which he likes), status, money and an escape from personal trouble seems more likely.
Post by: JF on December 15, 2023, 09:12:28 PM
History is history, but I always felt it could be a better idea to leave DS after BiA and make On Every Street the first solo album, how cool is that?
:clap :thumbsup +1000
Yes I always felt the same, like I said in many of my chronicles.
The Mandela gig would habe been the perfect last show for DS to say farewell
And I am sure that DS would have a more "cult" status now in rock history
The "comeback" in 91 gave to the band a more "commercial" image imho
Post by: Robson on December 15, 2023, 09:17:58 PM
What do you mean?
Post by: JF on December 15, 2023, 10:02:34 PM
"commercial" image ?
What do you mean?
adds with Philips for OES album, articles in every magazine, CE on radio...
Yes I know it was already the case in 85-86, but teh OES era has a more "mainstream" feeling to me
when you talk about DS with other people, I feel that this comeback had a bad image, and this is why DS is not in the same category as other bands in rock history imho
Post by: Robson on December 15, 2023, 10:13:12 PM
Post by: Chris W on December 16, 2023, 09:58:59 AM
He did thanked all the musicians and crew during the Zaragoza concert, there is an audience recording of it and you can hear how he thanks everyone but, yes, I agree that he should had made it more personally than that.
That is show biz. He really needed the personal touch - which was my point.
Post by: Chris W on December 16, 2023, 10:01:20 AM
Mark was a multi-millionaire after BIA. That much is a fact. OES tour as primarily a money-grab does not seem logical. He did not need it, and could have released a BIA live album or whatever to make easy money.
You weren't there.
People always want more money don't they. But IMO Mark thought he was doing something good for John, Alan and Guy and didn't forsee how miserable it was going to make him until it was too late and we had embarked on a 1.5 year journey.
Post by: Chris W on December 16, 2023, 10:05:47 AM
He never had a party after the BIA tour either. You can even see him after the show running off stage, jumping into a Porsche and driving away during the broadcast.
First they were having a party on stage overnight, instead of Mark looking depressed. Second, they were staying at a hotel about a 15 minute drive from the gig. It was a well known rock and roll, party hotel. So I am sure everyone had fun after the show back at the hotel. And Mark thanked everyone for all their efforts.
People seem to be focussing on the word 'party'. I could care less about a party. I'm saying that after a tortuous and very long tour, when the band and crew worked extremely hard, it was not right to walk off sage leaving the crew behind, then flying in silence back to a different city, and arriving back to a dark and deserted hotel. NONE of which happened after the last show on the BIA tour.
Post by: Chris W on December 16, 2023, 11:53:57 AM
I'm just saying on a very long tour where everyone went the extra mile to make it a success, largely rewarding Mark and John, it was notable that they never showed any appreciation for it, especially towards the end. It's just a point worth making.
It's easier to go the extra mile when everyone on stage is having a great time and your album is breaking records on the charts (Brothers In Arms).
Post by: peterromer on December 16, 2023, 03:07:06 PM
It's no biggie....
I'm just saying on a very long tour where everyone went the extra mile to make it a success, largely rewarding Mark and John, it was notable that they never showed any appreciation for it, especially towards the end. It's just a point worth making.
It's easier to go the extra mile when everyone on stage is having a great time and your album is breaking records on the charts (Brothers In Arms).
Chris, I think we all appreciate the insight you share. It provides a better picture of what is/was going on.
What was the most positive thing that you experienced during that period and tour as a DS member, that you could carry with you in future, either as a person or as a professionel drummer ?.
Post by: jbaent on December 16, 2023, 03:10:43 PM
Mark was a multi-millionaire after BIA. That much is a fact. OES tour as primarily a money-grab does not seem logical. He did not need it, and could have released a BIA live album or whatever to make easy money.
Of course we do not know, but a combination of playing live (which he likes), status, money and an escape from personal trouble seems more likely.
It is said this tour was more for the rest of the band, to ensure his financial future, than to make money for Mark and John.
Post by: Matchstickman on December 16, 2023, 03:25:49 PM
Mark was a multi-millionaire after BIA. That much is a fact. OES tour as primarily a money-grab does not seem logical. He did not need it, and could have released a BIA live album or whatever to make easy money.
You weren't there.
People always want more money don't they. But IMO Mark thought he was doing something good for John, Alan and Guy and didn't forsee how miserable it was going to make him until it was too late and we had embarked on a 1.5 year journey.
Of course I was not there 🙂 Anyway, maybe Mark alluded to this in private, but I have never heard him say anything about touring for the sake of band members. Since Guy and Alan are included in the "Dire Straits are" lineup on OES, I would assume that they got a piece of the album pie (record sales). That note made a distinction between DS and the hired help, presumably for financial reasons and maybe because they had raised the issue after the BIA tour (Guy once mentioned on his forum how much Mark and John made then).
But, Mark being Mark, a new album entailed a new tour, and a new tour meant going bigger. I guess many things started to point in the same direction (tour, going bigger, stadiums).
Post by: jbaent on December 16, 2023, 03:42:00 PM
Mark was a multi-millionaire after BIA. That much is a fact. OES tour as primarily a money-grab does not seem logical. He did not need it, and could have released a BIA live album or whatever to make easy money.
You weren't there.
People always want more money don't they. But IMO Mark thought he was doing something good for John, Alan and Guy and didn't forsee how miserable it was going to make him until it was too late and we had embarked on a 1.5 year journey.
Of course I was not there 🙂 Anyway, maybe Mark alluded to this in private, but I have never heard him say anything about touring for the sake of band members. Since Guy and Alan are included in the "Dire Straits are" lineup on OES, I would assume that they got a piece of the album pie (record sales). That note made a distinction between DS and the hired help, presumably for financial reasons and maybe because they had raised the issue after the BIA tour (Guy once mentioned on his forum how much Mark and John made then).
But, Mark being Mark, a new album entailed a new tour, and a new tour meant going bigger. I guess many things started to point in the same direction (tour, going bigger, stadiums).
The funny thing is that the OES record claims that DS are MK, JI, AC and GF, while Dire Straits Overseas and the other DS company (I think it was DS limited but I'm not sure) they were just MK, JI and Ed Bicknell.
With the OES record statement maybe they got something from the record sales, maybe just for production credits, as probably anything around DS were run by the two companies in which only MK, JI and Bicknell were part.
Post by: Matchstickman on December 16, 2023, 05:26:00 PM
Mark was a multi-millionaire after BIA. That much is a fact. OES tour as primarily a money-grab does not seem logical. He did not need it, and could have released a BIA live album or whatever to make easy money.
You weren't there.
People always want more money don't they. But IMO Mark thought he was doing something good for John, Alan and Guy and didn't forsee how miserable it was going to make him until it was too late and we had embarked on a 1.5 year journey.
Of course I was not there 🙂 Anyway, maybe Mark alluded to this in private, but I have never heard him say anything about touring for the sake of band members. Since Guy and Alan are included in the "Dire Straits are" lineup on OES, I would assume that they got a piece of the album pie (record sales). That note made a distinction between DS and the hired help, presumably for financial reasons and maybe because they had raised the issue after the BIA tour (Guy once mentioned on his forum how much Mark and John made then).
But, Mark being Mark, a new album entailed a new tour, and a new tour meant going bigger. I guess many things started to point in the same direction (tour, going bigger, stadiums).
The funny thing is that the OES record claims that DS are MK, JI, AC and GF, while Dire Straits Overseas and the other DS company (I think it was DS limited but I'm not sure) they were just MK, JI and Ed Bicknell.
With the OES record statement maybe they got something from the record sales, maybe just for production credits, as probably anything around DS were run by the two companies in which only MK, JI and Bicknell were part.
We need to ask Guy ;D
Post by: Matchstickman on December 16, 2023, 05:32:13 PM
Post by: Chris W on December 16, 2023, 09:24:10 PM
It is said this tour was more for the rest of the band, to ensure his financial future, than to make money for Mark and John.
They WERE the band. Of course they wanted to make more money. The only other people who might have benefitted directly were Alan and Guy. I don't know what their deal was with Mark and John so I can't say. The rest of us had agreed a fee, which didn't change whether the tour lost money or made millions....which I think in the end it did.
Post by: dmg on December 17, 2023, 12:15:31 PM
It's no biggie....
I'm just saying on a very long tour where everyone went the extra mile to make it a success, largely rewarding Mark and John, it was notable that they never showed any appreciation for it, especially towards the end. It's just a point worth making.
It's easier to go the extra mile when everyone on stage is having a great time and your album is breaking records on the charts (Brothers In Arms).
As a long-time fan since the BIA period I have to say that I wish your experience of being a part of DS had been a better one. You can be rest assured that your association has given a great deal of people many happy hours of listening pleasure over the years and I shall always remember my very first concert which was DS in Glasgow 13.09.91
Post by: ds1984 on December 17, 2023, 01:16:51 PM
It was a bit surreal for me to think that after all these years only been able to listen their live music through records, I was at last in the same room with Mark Knopfler performing in person.
You can imagine how emotional it could be.
I remember when R&J musical introduction happened I had the strange feeling that he was here doing the job.
Music was top notch but Mark's attitude was not what I was used when previously watching Alchemy or the BIA broadcast from Wembley - and of course the Mandela show.
He had that night a cold attitude.
I later learnt that Mark wall ill during his Paris spring residency so maybe the medicine he got was the reason of the cold start.
It was not until Sultans that things started to get warmer to me, and I was blasted by the TR solo.
Solid Rock was another highlight.
I did not recognize it until the first chorus, I though at first it was a completly new song and I got a "whaou" effect.
Then I recongized it and the second "whaou" effect caught me with the extended ending part.
When I left I was happy, I had witnessed a great show.
I did not plan to attend another gig from that tour but when I got opportunity to buy a ticket to see them a mont later at Werchter I just did it.
I am now left with great memories beeing able to get 1st row on the left in front of John and Mark seemed in better mood than Paris.
So the inside hardness of that tour did not impact the musical quality.
I was there and witnessed that era : Dires Straits live in Europe was simply HUGE.
France was a strong place, ENCORES topped the charts in 1993, you could not escape YLT being aired by the radio.
Post by: hunter v2.0 on December 17, 2023, 06:01:40 PM
Chris, I think we all appreciate the insight you share. It provides a better picture of what is/was going on.
What was the most positive thing that you experienced during that period and tour as a DS member, that you could carry with you in future, either as a person or as a professionel drummer ?.
Excellent question.
Post by: hunter v2.0 on December 17, 2023, 06:19:51 PM
Jesus, Mary and Joseph ::)
Welcome back Hunter! ;D
Why, thank you! ;D
Post by: dustyvalentino on December 17, 2023, 10:45:30 PM
Bercy 1992 was my first international act I attended and it was with my favorite band.
It was a bit surreal for me to think that after all these years only been able to listen their live music through records, I was at last in the same room with Mark Knopfler performing in person.
You can imagine how emotional it could be.
I remember when R&J musical introduction happened I had the strange feeling that he was here doing the job.
Music was top notch but Mark's attitude was not what I was used when previously watching Alchemy or the BIA broadcast from Wembley - and of course the Mandela show.
He had that night a cold attitude.
I later learnt that Mark wall ill during his Paris spring residency so maybe the medicine he got was the reason of the cold start.
It was not until Sultans that things started to get warmer to me, and I was blasted by the TR solo.
Solid Rock was another highlight.
I did not recognize it until the first chorus, I though at first it was a completly new song and I got a "whaou" effect.
Then I recongized it and the second "whaou" effect caught me with the extended ending part.
When I left I was happy, I had witnessed a great show.
I did not plan to attend another gig from that tour but when I got opportunity to buy a ticket to see them a mont later at Werchter I just did it.
I am now left with great memories beeing able to get 1st row on the left in front of John and Mark seemed in better mood than Paris.
So the inside hardness of that tour did not impact the musical quality.
I was there and witnessed that era : Dires Straits live in Europe was simply HUGE.
France was a strong place, ENCORES topped the charts in 1993, you could not escape YLT being aired by the radio.
I happened to be in Clermont Ferrand on Bastille day in 1993 and they played DS all the way through the firework display.
Post by: dustyvalentino on December 18, 2023, 12:16:22 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53405424511_c934b5c740_m.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pnfL6e)IMG_20231218_105855 (https://flic.kr/p/2pnfL6e) by Dusty Valentino (https://www.flickr.com/photos/190235235@N02/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53405605003_3aec9d49cb_m.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pngFKa)IMG_20231218_110021 (https://flic.kr/p/2pngFKa) by Dusty Valentino (https://www.flickr.com/photos/190235235@N02/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53405858100_7dabcb4789_m.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pnhYYU)IMG_20231218_110051 (https://flic.kr/p/2pnhYYU) by Dusty Valentino (https://www.flickr.com/photos/190235235@N02/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53405605523_850211a0e6_m.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pngFU8)IMG_20231218_110111 (https://flic.kr/p/2pngFU8) by Dusty Valentino (https://www.flickr.com/photos/190235235@N02/), on Flickr
Post by: hunter v2.0 on December 18, 2023, 01:10:17 PM
Post by: Chris W on December 18, 2023, 03:23:03 PM
Excellent question.
I retired hurt after the tour. Hardly touched my drums for a few years. I was writing music for film & tv.
The most positive thing was my ongoing friendship with Chris White, who got me through the tour actually. Secondly the money I made and saved allowed me to only work on projects I wanted to work on from thereon.
Bandwise, I guess it taught me a new level of attention to detail. It was like playing in an elite orchestra, not a rock band.
Through the experience I became very critical of myself and often others (musically), which has been more of a curse than a positive. I was confident and professional going in. Afterwards I started to second guess everything I played.
Post by: dustyvalentino on December 18, 2023, 04:02:19 PM
Through the experience I became very critical of myself and often others (musically), which has been more of a curse than a positive. I was confident and professional going in. Afterwards I started to second guess everything I played.
This is very sad.
Post by: Chris W on December 18, 2023, 04:24:03 PM
It was 14 or so months out of 65 years. It's all good. I regret that it killed my joy of just playing carefree, but that's it.
Post by: jbaent on December 18, 2023, 04:30:14 PM
Excellent question.
I retired hurt after the tour. Hardly touched my drums for a few years. I was writing music for film & tv.
The most positive thing was my ongoing friendship with Chris White, who got me through the tour actually. Secondly the money I made and saved allowed me to only work on projects I wanted to work on from thereon.
Bandwise, I guess it taught me a new level of attention to detail. It was like playing in an elite orchestra, not a rock band.
Through the experience I became very critical of myself and often others (musically), which has been more of a curse than a positive. I was confident and professional going in. Afterwards I started to second guess everything I played.
I always thought that your time with Presuntos Implicados was just after the DS tour, Ammi wrong?
As a Spanish I'm very curious about your time with them.
Post by: Chris W on December 18, 2023, 04:38:53 PM
One was Fredericks, Goldman, Jones in Paris - which was only about a weeks work.
The Presuntos live show, album and DVD was 1995. It was really only a couple of weeks rehearsal, a few days off, then another few days rehearsal, then the two shows which were filmed and recorded. I also did brief one day sessions on a couple of Presuntos albums, following that.
Over the course of 1992 to 2005 I hardly played drums, apart from the odd thing.
Post by: dustyvalentino on December 18, 2023, 05:30:00 PM
Post by: Chris W on December 18, 2023, 06:41:29 PM
Paul came in and said we have a guest today. A short while later Johnny and June Carter Cash walked in.
I tended to speak when I was spoken to and generally keep a low profile. So they had this song they had written they wanted to record. It wasn't one of Johnny's greatest songs.
I just got on with the job. This was before multi-channel tv (in the UK) and pre-internet. In the last ten years I've watched a bunch of Johnny Cash documentaries and live concert films. Had I known more about him I would have been in more awe. Of course I knew he was legendary and a huge star, especially in America, but I guess if you were too star struck you couldn't do your job.
Post by: hunter v2.0 on December 18, 2023, 06:48:12 PM
Post by: dustyvalentino on December 18, 2023, 09:15:44 PM
It was 'just another day' in Paul McCartney's studio.
Paul came in and said we have a guest today. A short while later Johnny and June Carter Cash walked in.
I tended to speak when I was spoken to and generally keep a low profile. So they had this song they had written they wanted to record. It wasn't one of Johnny's greatest songs.
I just got on with the job. This was before multi-channel tv (in the UK) and pre-internet. In the last ten years I've watched a bunch of Johnny Cash documentaries and live concert films. Had I known more about him I would have been in more awe. Of course I knew he was legendary and a huge star, especially in America, but I guess if you were too star struck you couldn't do your job.
Thank you :)
Post by: Chris W on December 18, 2023, 11:14:16 PM
Chris, have you and Mark crossed paths since the OES tour?
No.
I've been at his studio (British Grove) a few times, but he wasn't there.
Post by: jbaent on December 19, 2023, 05:54:43 AM
Chris, have you and Mark crossed paths since the OES tour?
No.
I've been at his studio (British Grove) a few times, but he wasn't there.
Did he.knew you were there? I also read from Phil Palmer that he recorded there but didn't get to see him, also Hal Lindes recorded there but he didn't mention seeing MK either.
I think that after so many years, see your old band mates would have been nice even just to say Hi...
Post by: TheTimeWasWrong on December 19, 2023, 09:07:29 AM
Chris, have you and Mark crossed paths since the OES tour?
No.
I've been at his studio (British Grove) a few times, but he wasn't there.
Did he.knew you were there? I also read from Phil Palmer that he recorded there but didn't get to see him, also Hal Lindes recorded there but he didn't mention seeing MK either.
I think that after so many years, see your old band mates would have been nice even just to say Hi...
We know Hal and Mark were both at John’s book party and he was backstage at the 2019 tour.
Post by: Chris W on December 19, 2023, 09:12:38 AM
Did he.knew you were there?
Probably not.
Mark has every opportunity to reach out to me. His current (sort of business) manager used to be my manager when I played with DS.
I don't think we have anything to say to each other. Sometimes people are hired as employees, to get the job done. Not everyone on tour is going to end up firm friends.
Post by: jbaent on December 19, 2023, 11:33:15 AM
Did he.knew you were there?
Probably not.
Mark has every opportunity to reach out to me. His current (sort of business) manager used to be my manager when I played with DS.
I don't think we have anything to say to each other. Sometimes people are hired as employees, to get the job done. Not everyone on tour is going to end up firm friends.
There is no need to be firm friends, you've been coleagues for a long tour, if he knows you are recording at his studio, a quick "Hi, how are you doing" is courtesy with an old work coleague.
Post by: Chris W on December 19, 2023, 02:09:34 PM
Post by: Knut on December 20, 2023, 01:23:21 AM
agree.
The man deserves praise more than he deserves criticism, and small things like the proverbial sausage story or the absence of a tour party are just not registering on my radar of appreciation. Try to do what he did, and 99.99999999% of people would fail without even starting. End of rant.
Most of what you post is guess work.
In the end I don't really care about a tour party, I just brought it up as an indication of how dysfunctional Mark was during the tour.
Whatever mood you are in, it is just common politeness to thank the 150 or so people who just helped you sell out huge outdoor stadiums, making large amounts of money for your future lifestyle.
I also agree. I've said before that I don't think I'd like Mark as a person, certainly not in the DS days anyway. It doesn't stop me liking his music though.
He never had a party after the BIA tour either. You can even see him after the show running off stage, jumping into a Porsche and driving away during the broadcast. The difference there was they had played 20 nights at the same venue in Sydney and according to Jack Sonni they had a good time windsurfing every day!
There's also the difference between having someone as a friend and as a boss. I don't think being friends with the guy would be a bad thing, but those of us who like to voice our opinions regardless of stars and stripes on someone's shoulder wouldn't feel welcome in a place where someone is treated like some god-like figure and you just have to accept being yelled at over literally nothing.
I've also been a boss, and I like to give my employees freedom to solve their exercises the way they want to, and then they can ask for advice if needed.
Post by: Knut on December 20, 2023, 01:30:30 AM
The point is that you can just as easily flip these things around. You claim he did everything right. Maybe he did everything wrong? As you said, it's all guesswork, and there's no reason why the guesses should be in one direction or the other. GIven what we know, I think it's pretty safe to say that there were plenty of mistakes made. It might not have been a good idea to tour at all, in the long run. But, it would be weird if they didn't make any good moves, either.
I should also add that the OES tour wasn't all that long compared to what many other artists do. Proof: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_concert_tours - so no need to exaggerate the fact that it was 14 months long (+ prep). It's actually quite common.
Maybe you live in a different country, but around here, we have many people leave their families for a few weeks at the time to go work offshore. I have yet to hear of this being an issue, simply because everything is carefully planned and the whole concept and it's potential issues (i.e. related to personal relations) are reasonably well understood. Just as you would imagine MK & crew would plan the OES tour properly, and be well aware of their own experience from the BIA tour and also the tours done by other artists (pretty sure MK is friends with some of those and would have been able to ask for advice if needed). If this indeed took it's toll on some personal relations, then that's because of bad decisions being made (at least in hindsight).
"...and things snowballed out of control." - Well, who's in charge of that, if it's true? MK, no?
That's a good question. I guess you can control a snowball, but you can't be in charge of an avalanche when it happens. You just accept it and prevent it from happening again if you get lucky enough to survive. I mean a man like MK can potentially have control over many things, but there are also financial, contractual, and psychological obligations, physical limitations, build-up of obligations, emotions, fatigue, problems with private life, family, and a million different factors.
That's why I'm trying to say MK is a human after all, and yes, mistakes are what make us humans, but it's how you react to mistakes and deal with them later on that matters. Judging by the fact we haven't heard anything from Dire Straits from 1993 (live at the BBC album released to please the contract doesn't count), and the fact the titular hero of this forum barely returns to this band in any shape or form, and that everyone agrees it's likely gone for good, he doesn't want this avalanche to repeat.
As for long tours, I still don't think it's a good idea to tour for so long. Why not do fewer shows or tours, and just spread it across a longer period? Like Bob Dylan, like Van Morrison. Mark got stuck in the album-tour formula and it's one of the major reasons he stopped touring now I think, apart from health and other concerns. Because if he releases an album, he needs to tour with as many shows as possible, it's what he has been doing for all his artistic life. Album, tour, album, tour, album, tour. And the tour has to be big because kids these days can't do it, but Mark sure can.
Sting expressed similar feelings towards large-scale tours of The Police. Marriages breaking down, tension building and spilling over the top, and band members barely surviving the experience themselves. It's all a build-up of a lot of things, I don't think anyone has ever dreamed about doing 365 shows a year. Music is not a sport, but damn, it feels like it sometimes is a sport with all this "who's bigger" attitude and measurements of revenue figures, managers and hunger for money.
This I can agree to. I wish they had more rest days so they could enjoy the cities they visit.
Post by: Chris W on December 20, 2023, 09:33:21 AM
I've also been a boss, and I like to give my employees freedom to solve their exercises the way they want to, and then they can ask for advice if needed.
That was a bit like how McCartney worked. I can't remembering him telling me what to play during the tour rehearsals.
It's an ideal, but quite rare in music. Most band leaders are dictators.
Post by: ds1984 on December 20, 2023, 01:28:49 PM
So perhaps being a sort of dictator is the natural way when others have to built what you want.
Beware of what the word "dictator" means to you.
In my mind it means that you don't have freedom to express your own creativity but to execute what someone else want.
That does apply to human behaving.
Post by: Chris W on December 20, 2023, 02:03:31 PM
Beware of what the word "dictator" means to you.
In my mind it means that you don't have freedom to express your own creativity but to execute what someone else want.
Yes, that's often how life is with band leaders, especially the more successful ones. That's fine, it goes with the territory.
Post by: MagicElliott on December 21, 2023, 09:10:22 PM
I've also been a boss, and I like to give my employees freedom to solve their exercises the way they want to, and then they can ask for advice if needed.
That was a bit like how McCartney worked. I can't remembering him telling me what to play during the tour rehearsals.
It's an ideal, but quite rare in music. Most band leaders are dictators.
I wonder if the fact that Guy described himself as band leader has any significance on this. I remember him saying something like “I guess I’m better suited in that role than Mark.”
Maybe mark realised that he wasn’t the best suited person in his line up for that role.
Post by: hunter v2.0 on December 21, 2023, 09:26:29 PM
I've also been a boss, and I like to give my employees freedom to solve their exercises the way they want to, and then they can ask for advice if needed.
That was a bit like how McCartney worked. I can't remembering him telling me what to play during the tour rehearsals.
It's an ideal, but quite rare in music. Most band leaders are dictators.
I wonder if the fact that Guy described himself as band leader has any significance on this. I remember him saying something like “I guess I’m better suited in that role than Mark.”
Maybe mark realised that he wasn’t the best suited person in his line up for that role.
I think you are confusing "band leader" with "music director". Guy has functioned as music director.
Post by: Chris W on December 22, 2023, 09:29:20 AM
Post by: hunter v2.0 on December 22, 2023, 09:57:19 AM
By: Tim Littman
Categories: Tour
May 20, 2015
Q: Hi! On previous tours I remember you being the musical director. Is this still the case and if so how come MK doesn’t do it? Many thanks.
A: Yes, I’m better suited to that role I suppose.
It's more of a assistant/facilitator role, isn't it? Handling practical things rather than artistic aspects. Maybe Chris could shed some light on this?
Post by: jbaent on December 22, 2023, 11:41:06 AM
In the On Every Street tour rehearsals Mark was definitely the boss. Guy and Alan were his right hand men, they would suggest things, they would come up with ideas, but in the end Mark would have the final say.
As far as I remember, in those days it was Alan Clark the musical director, but as his role was also the main keyboardist, probably he wanted Guy sharing the MC duties as well. As you say, they were his right and left hands.
Post by: Chris W on December 22, 2023, 11:51:59 AM
Alan seemed plugged in to the musical aspect of things, based on his piano and organ playing. Guy was great at the technology, sound and arrangements.
Post by: MagicElliott on December 23, 2023, 09:08:15 PM
I've also been a boss, and I like to give my employees freedom to solve their exercises the way they want to, and then they can ask for advice if needed.
That was a bit like how McCartney worked. I can't remembering him telling me what to play during the tour rehearsals.
It's an ideal, but quite rare in music. Most band leaders are dictators.
I wonder if the fact that Guy described himself as band leader has any significance on this. I remember him saying something like “I guess I’m better suited in that role than Mark.”
Maybe mark realised that he wasn’t the best suited person in his line up for that role.
I think you are confusing "band leader" with "music director". Guy has functioned as music director.
Ah yeah excuse my ignorance. That was the quote from Guy’s forum that I was thinking of too.
Post by: ds1984 on December 26, 2023, 01:27:27 PM
Post by: jbaent on December 26, 2023, 01:44:49 PM
A question did just pop in my mind : wans't the Mandela gig recorded using a multitrack ?
I don't think so, it was a live broadcast, those are usually just stereo mix for the radio and tv broadcast, not sure if many tv stations broadcasted in stereo in 1988.
Maybe they recorded it too in multitracks just in case, but everything I heard about this concert is just the stereo live broadcast.
Post by: ds1984 on December 26, 2023, 02:08:48 PM
Post by: the visitor on December 26, 2023, 05:53:53 PM
A question did just pop in my mind : wans't the Mandela gig recorded using a multitrack ?
I don't think so, it was a live broadcast, those are usually just stereo mix for the radio and tv broadcast, not sure if many tv stations broadcasted in stereo in 1988.
Maybe they recorded it too in multitracks just in case, but everything I heard about this concert is just the stereo live broadcast.
The only thing that makes me doubt this is that there are definitely at least two different mixes of this concert in existence. One is from the radio / TV stereo broadcast which is my favourite : it has flaws (like missing the first sax fill in Sultans) but lots of ambience. The second mix can be found on the Superstar Concert Series release which aired after the event to US syndicated networks. This is a cleaner, more clinical and direct mix which I am guessing was remixed after the concert. The Solid Rock Bootleg comes from this source. I don't like it as much.
A third and final possible mix can be found on the official VHS. This might just be a better quality version of the first radio mix I mention, but sounds great.
I'd really love an official release of this important concert in Dire Straits history.
Post by: ds1984 on December 26, 2023, 06:00:31 PM
Alan organ on the intro of WOL has not the same presence.
And Mark backing vocal on Wonderful Tonight too.
Post by: herlock on December 26, 2023, 06:05:31 PM
Post by: Darling Pretty on December 26, 2023, 07:04:23 PM
A question did just pop in my mind : wans't the Mandela gig recorded using a multitrack ?
I don't think so, it was a live broadcast, those are usually just stereo mix for the radio and tv broadcast, not sure if many tv stations broadcasted in stereo in 1988.
Maybe they recorded it too in multitracks just in case, but everything I heard about this concert is just the stereo live broadcast.
The only thing that makes me doubt this is that there are definitely at least two different mixes of this concert in existence. One is from the radio / TV stereo broadcast which is my favourite : it has flaws (like missing the first sax fill in Sultans) but lots of ambience. The second mix can be found on the Superstar Concert Series release which aired after the event to US syndicated networks. This is a cleaner, more clinical and direct mix which I am guessing was remixed after the concert. The Solid Rock Bootleg comes from this source. I don't like it as much.
A third and final possible mix can be found on the official VHS. This might just be a better quality version of the first radio mix I mention, but sounds great.
I'd really love an official release of this important concert in Dire Straits history.
I do not like the Solid Rock Bootleg as well. Clapton's guitar is not really there.
He is doing quite a brillant rythm part on BIA on that evening. Simply stunning.
By the way: DOES anytone has the great version from the Laser disc or BBC VHS from Brothers in Arms for me?
Is this really the best version out there?
I would really dig a PM of a FLAC version.
Post by: the visitor on December 26, 2023, 07:32:21 PM
A question did just pop in my mind : wans't the Mandela gig recorded using a multitrack ?
I don't think so, it was a live broadcast, those are usually just stereo mix for the radio and tv broadcast, not sure if many tv stations broadcasted in stereo in 1988.
Maybe they recorded it too in multitracks just in case, but everything I heard about this concert is just the stereo live broadcast.
The only thing that makes me doubt this is that there are definitely at least two different mixes of this concert in existence. One is from the radio / TV stereo broadcast which is my favourite : it has flaws (like missing the first sax fill in Sultans) but lots of ambience. The second mix can be found on the Superstar Concert Series release which aired after the event to US syndicated networks. This is a cleaner, more clinical and direct mix which I am guessing was remixed after the concert. The Solid Rock Bootleg comes from this source. I don't like it as much.
A third and final possible mix can be found on the official VHS. This might just be a better quality version of the first radio mix I mention, but sounds great.
I'd really love an official release of this important concert in Dire Straits history.
Meant to add that this all leads me to believe there are multitrack tapes that allowed the "remix" for the Superstar Concert Series version of this concert. Just a theory but one I want to believe, leaving the door open for a future official version!
Post by: Love Expresso on December 26, 2023, 09:05:41 PM
LE
Post by: jbaent on December 27, 2023, 08:48:22 AM
I think there will be more Box Sets in the next years. A movie soundtrack box would be possible, and I am pretty sure that 2025 will see a Brothers In Arms Jubilee Box with many different formats. To cover the second half of the 1980's it could contain Wembley 85 and the Mandela gig. Maybe Live Aid as an bonus EP. Who knows if they come up with another surprising recording, same as they did with the fabulous Rainbow Show. Personally I just hope it will NOT contain Sydney as that one contains many of the most cringe DS moments ever. On the other hand, a proper mixed live version of Ride Across The River would be something. I guess Guy knows already what plans they have for the next years..
LE
According to Guy, the problem with the BIA recordings is that most of them are just stereo mixes, and he needs multitracks.
We don't know all the recordings they really have, but the guess is that at least they should have the Wembley 85 recording in multitracks, as the Rolling Stones Mobile was used to record the sound that for the tv broadcast, but the Sydney 86 was a live broadcast mixed directly in stereo with that purpose, and the San Antonio and Houston radio shows were also apparently live broadcasts in stereo.
I agree with the posibility of a movie scores box, as most of them are not in LP (Wag the dog or Altamira) and there are pieces of music MK wrote for tv shows or documentaries that were not released in any format (Charles and DI, Swan Hunter) and also many musical fragments that are in the films but not in the released scores, actually many of them are listed in ASCAP and ISWC (from Wag the dog and Metroland mostly) so that could be a big clue of something coming in that regard...
Metroland: https://www.amarkintime.org/forum/index.php?topic=6189.0
Wag the dog: https://www.amarkintime.org/forum/index.php?topic=2685.0
Charles and Di documentary: https://www.amarkintime.org/forum/index.php?topic=6254.0
Swan Hunter documentary: https://www.amarkintime.org/forum/index.php?topic=6190.0
Post by: herlock on December 27, 2023, 08:55:53 AM
Post by: jbaent on December 27, 2023, 09:07:10 AM
Maybe I'm being naive, but what would be wrong in releasing the existing stereo mixes? I understand that with a multitrack recording you can mix it really according to your heart, but if it is already mixed, well, it is what it is, and sometimes quite ok. The semi-official San Antonio 85 concert that was released on CD and endorsed by the official DS YT channel sounds quite good to me. Not sure if it is PRE-FM or POST-FM, but surely the PRE-FM are available somewhere?
The "endorsed" by the official youtube channel, I never consider it like any kind of official thing, but a way to monetize the bootlegs, as the copyright of it belongs to the brand DS, none of the bootleggers could claim about it, so they make money for the brand of things that they weren't.
What's the problem about the stereo mixes? That they are not good enough in their standards, so the only way to release a good enough thing, they need to remixe it from the original source, and in order to do a proper mix they need to mix all.
I know some artists are releasing stereo mixes just with a remaster, but looks like from MK and DS camp, if the original is not good enough for them and candidate to just remaster, they want a new mix, and for that, they need the multitracks.
The pre-FM is probably just stereo as the purpose was a live broadcast.
Post by: Chris W on December 27, 2023, 10:15:01 AM
jbaent is correct about the quality issue. But going beyond that, most live radio or tv recordings are made by local engineers, who don't know the music before the show. They're mixing it in real time not knowing what comes next. In my experience the drum sound is often sketchy.
When you look at the preparations for an official live recording - a world class recording engineer is brought in, who knows the music or who has seen the show multiple times. They record more than one show, they have all the instrument components on separate tracks for later balancing.
It's a completely different beast.
Post by: Love Expresso on December 27, 2023, 10:42:46 AM
LE
Post by: herlock on December 27, 2023, 10:44:43 AM
Post by: Love Expresso on December 27, 2023, 10:46:05 AM
Mark has been releasing on-the-fly mixes (sometimes quite so-so) of his solo concerts from 2005/2010 onwards...
Yes and with every tour they got worse and worse.
LE
Post by: herlock on December 27, 2023, 10:54:52 AM
Post by: jbaent on December 27, 2023, 10:55:15 AM
The absence of the complete BIA era in the recent live box is very noticable and with 2025 in sight, there must be planned something separate. The Wembley Show was and is always a fan's favourite, so I thought of it in the first place. As there was obviously no unreleased stuff recorded during the BIA era and because of now several different vinyl releases during the last years (half speed mastering and so on) my guess is they have to come up with sonething worthy. I ageee with jbaent also as we all know that the quality standards in the MK/DS camp are very high.
LE
The absence of a BIA live recording in this box is logical, as this box was the continuity of the previous "Studio Box" released some years ago with all the DS studio records (except Extended Dance Play), so the next one logically was a "Live box" but this time they decided, luckily for us, include not only extra stuff in the Alchemy and OTN records, but also to include an unreleased concert, like the Rainbow 79, but in the end, it's a Live DS records box, like the previous one was a Studio DS records box.
The thing here is, why of the unreleased stuff they hopefully have, they decided to choose the Rainbow 79?
Probably you are right, and there is something already planned for the next BIA anniversary, I had the same thought as we know the Wembley concert was recorded properly, and someone already asked Guy and he said that there are plans in the future from the record company but, who knows which plans, next year is the 40th anniversary of Alchemy, and as far as they have the whole 22nd and 23rd recordings, a box with the whole concerts would be great, and then next year the 40th anniversary of BIA... Hopefully.
Post by: jbaent on December 27, 2023, 10:58:11 AM
Mark has been releasing on-the-fly mixes (sometimes quite so-so) of his solo concerts from 2005/2010 onwards...
But thyey were not official releases by the record company in cd/lp physical format but digital downloads more for the fans and concert goers than the general public, and probably PCM convinced him that was a way to fund the tours partially...
Post by: JF on December 27, 2023, 12:17:28 PM
I hope you are right, but.. we got nothing new for 10th, 20th and 30th anniversaries... so why would they do it for the 40th ? :think ::)
Post by: Chris W on December 27, 2023, 12:27:38 PM
Post by: Love Expresso on December 27, 2023, 12:28:56 PM
everybody is hopping something special for the BIA 40th anniversary...
I hope you are right, but.. we got nothing new for 10th, 20th and 30th anniversaries... so why would they do it for the 40th ? :think ::)
Because 10 years ago MK was heavily touring and things have changed and so the release politics have. With the Studio Albums boxes a kind of new retrospective phase has started, also vinyl is booming more than ever.
LE
Post by: jbaent on December 27, 2023, 01:02:58 PM
everybody is hopping something special for the BIA 40th anniversary...
I hope you are right, but.. we got nothing new for 10th, 20th and 30th anniversaries... so why would they do it for the 40th ? :think ::)
Because 10 years ago MK was heavily touring and things have changed and so the release politics have. With the Studio Albums boxes a kind of new retrospective phase has started, also vinyl is booming more than ever.
LE
Exactly.
The first box that was released was the DS Studio box, that not only DIDN'T have any extra content, but missed one official DS EP, the Extended Dance Play. Then the two MK studio albums boxes came out, the first one WITH BONUS TRACKS, and the third one NOT ONLY with BONUS TRACKS but also UNRELEASED SONGS.
And now, we have a DS Live box, again, not only with BONUS TRACKS but also with a whole UNRELEASED double CD.
Something has changed, probably linked, as LE says, with the fact that MK is not touring anymore, so I also believe that now there are chances that more releases like that would happen. I don't know how much these boxes are selling but I hope they are doing well and the record company would push for more!
Post by: Love Expresso on December 27, 2023, 02:33:10 PM
LE
Post by: dustyvalentino on December 27, 2023, 03:29:06 PM
Post by: dustyvalentino on December 27, 2023, 03:30:38 PM
Post by: Chris W on December 27, 2023, 05:13:05 PM
Is Live at the BBC definitely from multi tracks?
I would think so. The BBC had fully operational studios with multi-track tape machines and mixing desks.
Post by: jbaent on December 27, 2023, 06:16:27 PM
Is Live at the BBC definitely from multi tracks?
As far as I know it comes from original BBC reels so I guess they are. Guy only mentioned Tunnel being mono, however that record was just remastered, not remixed.
Post by: Chris W on December 27, 2023, 06:29:10 PM
Tunnel of Love came from Westphalen Hall, Dortmund, which if I remember correctly was the venue used for Rockpalast (hence maybe mono)?
Post by: herlock on December 27, 2023, 06:43:32 PM
According to Wikipedia (which isn't always accurate), most of Live At The BBC was from an Old Grey Whistle Test broadcast.Yes, Dortmund 80. Not Rockpalast but Rockpop. And yes, mono, too bad, although better a good mono recording than a bad stereo one. At least Dormund is properly tuned, which is not the case of Werchter 81, which is stereo but sounds horrible...
Tunnel of Love came from Westphalen Hall, Dortmund, which if I remember correctly was the venue used for Rockpalast (hence maybe mono)?
Post by: dustyvalentino on December 27, 2023, 06:44:58 PM
According to Wikipedia (which isn't always accurate), most of Live At The BBC was from an Old Grey Whistle Test broadcast.Yes, Dortmund 80. Not Rockpalast but Rockpop. And yes, mono, too bad, although better a good mono recording than a bad stereo one. At least Dormund is properly tuned, which is not the case of Werchter 81, which is stereo but sounds horrible...
Tunnel of Love came from Westphalen Hall, Dortmund, which if I remember correctly was the venue used for Rockpalast (hence maybe mono)?
Funny you say that. I listened to Live at the BBC today for the first time in 25 years or something and to my ears MK’s guitar sounded out of tune on TOL.
Post by: jbaent on December 27, 2023, 06:45:54 PM
According to Wikipedia (which isn't always accurate), most of Live At The BBC was from an Old Grey Whistle Test broadcast.
Tunnel of Love came from Westphalen Hall, Dortmund, which if I remember correctly was the venue used for Rockpalast (hence maybe mono)?
Guy said that apparently the sound came from the TV camera. If I remember well.
The rest of the live at the BBC comes from a live concert recorded in London, at the Paris Theatre and broadcasted live at the BBC radio, not at Whistle Test.
Post by: herlock on December 27, 2023, 06:46:52 PM
Yes indeed Mark in out of tune at the end of TOL, but that's a performance issue, not a recording issue. For Werchter I believe the performance was better, but the mix and the tempo are just horrible...According to Wikipedia (which isn't always accurate), most of Live At The BBC was from an Old Grey Whistle Test broadcast.Yes, Dortmund 80. Not Rockpalast but Rockpop. And yes, mono, too bad, although better a good mono recording than a bad stereo one. At least Dormund is properly tuned, which is not the case of Werchter 81, which is stereo but sounds horrible...
Tunnel of Love came from Westphalen Hall, Dortmund, which if I remember correctly was the venue used for Rockpalast (hence maybe mono)?
Funny you say that. I listened to Live at the BBC today for the first time in 25 years or something and to my ears MK’s guitar sounded out of tune on TOL.
Post by: Rolo on December 27, 2023, 06:56:24 PM
Funny you say that. I listened to Live at the BBC today for the first time in 25 years or something and to my ears MK’s guitar sounded out of tune on TOL.
To my ears, Mark guitar on Six Blade Knife from Rainbow Theater is out of tune too.
Post by: 2manyguitars on December 28, 2023, 12:02:33 AM
I just spent a week in my little studio doing a project for a local special needs school involving the use of original music (80s pop/rock) with all the instrumental elements separated by A.I.
One of the kids wanted just the drums from we will rock you. Another just a bass line from aha take on me.
If I get time in the next month or so I'll run something like Sydney or Mandela through my kit and see what results I can get. 18 months of using various iterations of isotope rx10 and I can't find fault with it.
I can't see why this technique couldn't be used as a basis for an official DS release....
Post by: ds1984 on December 28, 2023, 01:33:58 AM
Guys, on the question of multitracks, you'd be amazed at what can be achieved in the studio these days.
I just spent a week in my little studio doing a project for a local special needs school involving the use of original music (80s pop/rock) with all the instrumental elements separated by A.I.
One of the kids wanted just the drums from we will rock you. Another just a bass line from aha take on me.
If I get time in the next month or so I'll run something like Sydney or Mandela through my kit and see what results I can get. 18 months of using various iterations of isotope rx10 and I can't find fault with it.
I can't see why this technique couldn't be used as a basis for an official DS release....
That day will come.
Post by: Robson on December 28, 2023, 02:18:16 AM
Post by: jbaent on December 28, 2023, 08:09:51 AM
Guys, on the question of multitracks, you'd be amazed at what can be achieved in the studio these days.
I just spent a week in my little studio doing a project for a local special needs school involving the use of original music (80s pop/rock) with all the instrumental elements separated by A.I.
One of the kids wanted just the drums from we will rock you. Another just a bass line from aha take on me.
If I get time in the next month or so I'll run something like Sydney or Mandela through my kit and see what results I can get. 18 months of using various iterations of isotope rx10 and I can't find fault with it.
I can't see why this technique couldn't be used as a basis for an official DS release....
Guy said they used it to separate tracks of "where do you think you are going" from the MFN compilation, as the archivist couldn't find the multitracks of it. Guy had to mix it in Atmos so he used a software, probably AI, to do it. He said it did the job but the results are not what he really needs.
Post by: ds1984 on December 28, 2023, 09:42:25 AM
Guy said they used it to separate tracks of "where do you think you are going" from the MFN compilation, as the archivist couldn't find the multitracks of it. Guy had to mix it in Atmos so he used a software, probably AI, to do it. He said it did the job but the results are not what he really needs.
Is it the demo version or the album version ?
Post by: Chris W on December 28, 2023, 10:01:57 AM
Guy said that apparently the sound came from the TV camera. If I remember well.
The rest of the live at the BBC comes from a live concert recorded in London, at the Paris Theatre and broadcasted live at the BBC radio, not at Whistle Test.
The Paris Theatre show was part of a BBC Series called 'In Concert'.
I don't think TV cameras record sound. If TOL is from Dortmund I still think it was part of Rockpalast.
Post by: ds1984 on December 28, 2023, 10:53:34 AM
Guy said that apparently the sound came from the TV camera. If I remember well.
The rest of the live at the BBC comes from a live concert recorded in London, at the Paris Theatre and broadcasted live at the BBC radio, not at Whistle Test.
The Paris Theatre show was part of a BBC Series called 'In Concert'.
I don't think TV cameras record sound. If TOL is from Dortmund I still think it was part of Rockpalast.
Hi Chris,
Rockpop In Concert was a ZDF music programme that ran from 1978 to 1982 and the Dortmund gig is definitively from that program.
Rockpop logo is clearly seen diplayed on the side stage
https://youtu.be/O_FhMvAlVD0?t=521
Rockpalast is a WDR program and Dire Straits performed for them in 1979 during the Communiqué tour.
It was shot in their TV studio based in Cologne.
For the camera sound you are right, the sound is from a mixing desk.
Regarding The Paris Theatre it was run by the BBC and used as a radio studio.
Post by: Chris W on December 28, 2023, 11:41:18 AM
Definitely right about the Paris Theatre.
You are right about Rock-Pop.
Just for the record: When I did Rockpalast (mid-80's) it was filmed in Dortmund and from what I can tell most of the time it was filmed in Dortmund.
Post by: the visitor on December 28, 2023, 02:53:08 PM
Now I have caught up as others have said on this thread, hearing the new material takes me back to my first days of listening to DS, raising the hairs on the back of my neck. I first got into DS after as a kid my sister recorded the Mandela 88 gig which I listening to on repeat until the cassette got chewed up. Around this time the Woburn Abbey gig was rebroadcast on BBC Radio 1 at Christmas 92. I recorded that set and again played on repeat until, again, the tape died. I was gutted and in the years following this I delved deeply into bootlegs to try and get my fix of the songs which were missing from On the Night, and tours such as Live in 85 which were difficult to find recordings of when I was setting off down this road in the late 90s.
For me, this release brings me to what I was searching for over all those years, and what I've personally never been satisfied with in MKs solo works.
When I hear the likes of Telegraph Road and Tunnel on the new OTN release I'm reminded of what a tour de force DS were at that time. At the peak of technical prowess and with wild audiences to boot. But by this time DS were as Chris Whitten says more of a rock n roll orchestra than a rock band.
This is brought into stark contrast on the Rainbow release where they definitely sound much more of a band, with looser solos and less scripted licks and fills. The term 'rock n roll orchestra' was in fact coined on the On Location tour, and in following years this developed further.
We are missing a few stepping stones in this journey which I dearly hope will see the light of day. But if they aren't I will remain happy with what we have got, the quality of the production that accompanies and the reality we've now got what many of us were hoping for over many years.
A lovely release.
Post by: herlock on December 28, 2023, 04:46:04 PM
I tend to agree that DS songs were best played by DS, with one big exception : TR! 1983 had the best vocals, 1992 had the most impressive end solo, but 1996/2001/2005 were the most solid overall. And even 2008+ versions are quite lovely.
Post by: dustyvalentino on December 28, 2023, 05:25:19 PM
I’ve got Rainbow on now. It’s worth the price of admission alone.
I got the CDs and they sound beautiful. I’ve read reports about issues with the Alchemy vinyl quality.
Post by: Chris W on December 28, 2023, 06:39:06 PM
But by this time DS were as Chris Whitten says more of a rock n roll orchestra than a rock band.
This is brought into stark contrast on the Rainbow release where they definitely sound much more of a band, with looser solos and less scripted licks and fills.
I agree with both those descriptions.
Post by: jbaent on December 29, 2023, 08:30:12 AM
Guy said they used it to separate tracks of "where do you think you are going" from the MFN compilation, as the archivist couldn't find the multitracks of it. Guy had to mix it in Atmos so he used a software, probably AI, to do it. He said it did the job but the results are not what he really needs.
Is it the demo version or the album version ?
The demo.
Guy also said that nobody knew from where that version came from, so there was no way to find the multitracks of that version and had to use an AI to extract the tracks and do the atmos mix.
Seems they have an issue with the archive, as Guy also said that the reason why Portobello live is from Hammersmith, and not from Paris, as originally was sourced, is becaude that was what the record company provided him, so I guess the persons in charge of the archive lost some items, like the demos from "Where do you think" came, and the Paris 83 tapes...
Post by: jbaent on December 29, 2023, 08:36:42 AM
But by this time DS were as Chris Whitten says more of a rock n roll orchestra than a rock band.
This is brought into stark contrast on the Rainbow release where they definitely sound much more of a band, with looser solos and less scripted licks and fills.
I agree with both those descriptions.
Yeah, is like DS were loosing the fresh thing as a band little by little, as in the start, being the original four piece band, they were fresh and energetic, when David left and Hal Lindes and Alan Clark joined, everything was recharge in terms of rock energy and evolving the songs, when Terry joined the band it was even more energetic with Tommy Mandel on extra keyboards filling the voids that Alan couldn't with just two hands and then, when Guy joined everything turned more sofisticated, still energetic but more orchestrated, to finish with the OES tour were everything looks more orchestrated, more organized, more proffesional with less space to the rock energy from the past but accurate interpretations of the songs.
My view.
For me, the best period is the 80-81 band, when Alan and Hal joined, adapting the previous songs to the keyboards, extending most of them and still with Pick Withers doing his rythmic magic behind the kit.
Post by: hunter v2.0 on December 29, 2023, 09:03:22 AM
By the way, the other day I watched Telegraph Road from Alchemy and then from On The Night. The difference in energy and joyfulness is unbelievable.
Post by: herlock on December 29, 2023, 09:20:29 AM
For me, the best period is the 80-81 band, when Alan and Hal joined, adapting the previous songs to the keyboards, extending most of them and still with Pick Withers doing his rythmic magic behind the kit.Yes, fascinating period, even if the keyboards were really cheesy at times. That's why I really long for a 1981 official release. But besides the mono Dortmund 80 and the badly recorded Werchter 81, there is nothing much. There are bit and pieces of a video of Paris 81 second night, but with bad quality. I'm afraid nothing exists in Guy's standards to be officially released...
Post by: herlock on December 29, 2023, 09:22:44 AM
But even back in the early 80s, things were pretty orchestrated and "rigid", which I remember Tommy Mandel saying. Mark playing almost identical solos every night, etc. I'm curious why that was so important to Mark. Is he simply a control freak? Or was it a matter of reducing the risk of "off nights"? Sacrificing some spontaneity to ensure consistently high standard? Or, both? :)TR in 83 had unique passion in vocals.
By the way, the other day I watched Telegraph Road from Alchemy and then from On The Night. The difference in energy and joyfulness is unbelievable.
In 92 the lyrics became pretty lifeless, and the song quite ruined (cut intro, pedal steel everywhere, sax solo instead of guitar). The end solo is amazing, out of the world, but it does not fit the song - more a show off exercice than anything. Still very enjoyable to listen to, though.
Post by: Chris W on December 29, 2023, 10:33:43 AM
I'm curious why that was so important to Mark. Is he simply a control freak?
Yes, I think he wanted to control the show as much as possible. In the end I feel the 8 people on stage were providing a vehicle for Mark to express himself through his songs. We were not there to express our own musicality.
Do bands at this level have 'off nights'? I don't think so. There is possibly a difference between a great show and an outstanding show, but I don't think there was any fear that the audience would go away feeling cheated.....ever.
Post by: Love Expresso on December 29, 2023, 10:42:54 AM
I also got the box for Christmas and I’m working my way through it.
I’ve got Rainbow on now. It’s worth the price of admission alone.
I got the CDs and they sound beautiful. I’ve read reports about issues with the Alchemy vinyl quality.
I could have bet that you would have chosen the vinyl edition. Could you tell me more about the quality issue with the alchemy records? Praises are pretty high over all about the vinyl quality.
LE
Post by: dustyvalentino on December 29, 2023, 12:25:47 PM
I also got the box for Christmas and I’m working my way through it.
I’ve got Rainbow on now. It’s worth the price of admission alone.
I got the CDs and they sound beautiful. I’ve read reports about issues with the Alchemy vinyl quality.
I could have bet that you would have chosen the vinyl edition. Could you tell me more about the quality issue with the alchemy records? Praises are pretty high over all about the vinyl quality.
LE
I was put off by some noisy vinyl on the solo box to be honest.
Multiple complaints in the Discogs comments
https://www.discogs.com/master/3295336-Dire-Straits-Live-1978-1992
And some people reporting the same thing on Hoffman
New Dire Straits Live Box Set, 3rd November 2023 (http://"https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/new-dire-straits-live-box-set-3rd-november-2023.1184141/page-25#post-33552583")
I do love records but ultimately it doesn’t make sense to me to pay £200 for a potentially flawed product when I can get perfection for a quarter of the price.
Post by: ds1984 on December 29, 2023, 12:34:07 PM
Frome that point every tour featured more and more people on stage.
Whas it because they had more money that allowed it, because of bigger place to play, because of more and more versatility and complexity needing more people to perform it?
Dire Straits by 1992 was a heavy truck and the first solo tour sounded way lighter.
Don't get me wrong I like both, PONO live was notihng but fantastic.
Post by: ds1984 on December 29, 2023, 12:38:56 PM
I also got the box for Christmas and I’m working my way through it.
I’ve got Rainbow on now. It’s worth the price of admission alone.
I got the CDs and they sound beautiful. I’ve read reports about issues with the Alchemy vinyl quality.
I could have bet that you would have chosen the vinyl edition. Could you tell me more about the quality issue with the alchemy records? Praises are pretty high over all about the vinyl quality.
LE
I was put off by some noisy vinyl on the solo box to be honest.
Multiple complaints in the Discogs comments
https://www.discogs.com/master/3295336-Dire-Straits-Live-1978-1992
And some people reporting the same thing on Hoffman
New Dire Straits Live Box Set, 3rd November 2023 (http://"https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/new-dire-straits-live-box-set-3rd-november-2023.1184141/page-25#post-33552583")
I do love records but ultimately it doesn’t make sense to me to pay £200 for a potentially flawed product when I can get perfection for a quarter of the price.
Going back to vinyl media is choosing to go on the muddy road while you could have stayed on a motorway...
Post by: Love Expresso on December 29, 2023, 12:43:32 PM
I also got the box for Christmas and I’m working my way through it.
I’ve got Rainbow on now. It’s worth the price of admission alone.
I got the CDs and they sound beautiful. I’ve read reports about issues with the Alchemy vinyl quality.
I could have bet that you would have chosen the vinyl edition. Could you tell me more about the quality issue with the alchemy records? Praises are pretty high over all about the vinyl quality.
LE
I was put off by some noisy vinyl on the solo box to be honest.
Multiple complaints in the Discogs comments
https://www.discogs.com/master/3295336-Dire-Straits-Live-1978-1992
And some people reporting the same thing on Hoffman
New Dire Straits Live Box Set, 3rd November 2023 (http://"https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/new-dire-straits-live-box-set-3rd-november-2023.1184141/page-25#post-33552583")
I do love records but ultimately it doesn’t make sense to me to pay £200 for a potentially flawed product when I can get perfection for a quarter of the price.
Thanks for directing me to these reports. Interesting that they are so different as some people totally praise the quality as our member Darling Pretty did. I will have to sleep over the decision.
LE
Post by: Chris W on December 29, 2023, 12:47:01 PM
Going back to vinyl media is choosing to go on the muddy road while you could have stayed on a motorway...
With tolls. The price of the vinyl set was double the CD.
Post by: dustyvalentino on December 29, 2023, 01:01:03 PM
Going back to vinyl media is choosing to go on the muddy road while you could have stayed on a motorway...
With tolls. The price of the vinyl set was double the CD.
Quadruple here in the UK.
Post by: dustyvalentino on December 29, 2023, 01:02:46 PM
I also got the box for Christmas and I’m working my way through it.
I’ve got Rainbow on now. It’s worth the price of admission alone.
I got the CDs and they sound beautiful. I’ve read reports about issues with the Alchemy vinyl quality.
I could have bet that you would have chosen the vinyl edition. Could you tell me more about the quality issue with the alchemy records? Praises are pretty high over all about the vinyl quality.
LE
I was put off by some noisy vinyl on the solo box to be honest.
Multiple complaints in the Discogs comments
https://www.discogs.com/master/3295336-Dire-Straits-Live-1978-1992
And some people reporting the same thing on Hoffman
New Dire Straits Live Box Set, 3rd November 2023 (http://"https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/new-dire-straits-live-box-set-3rd-november-2023.1184141/page-25#post-33552583")
I do love records but ultimately it doesn’t make sense to me to pay £200 for a potentially flawed product when I can get perfection for a quarter of the price.
Thanks for directing me to these reports. Interesting that they are so different as some people totally praise the quality as our member Darling Pretty did. I will have to sleep over the decision.
LE
Seems there is some inconsistency. I guess if you buy from Amazon it your can replace without much hassle but the CDs sound perfect to me so I’m happy with them.
Post by: hunter v2.0 on December 29, 2023, 01:11:47 PM
Post by: jbaent on December 29, 2023, 01:29:23 PM
Wow Chris, yes, most of the songs are straight rock and roll, but some of them, specially the Macca solo songs and The Wings ones, some had some very tricky arrangements and great breaks and different fills here and there in the same song, I think I never heard it paying detailed attention to the drums parts. I totally understand everything you said when talking about playing the Macca songs!
I recommend this listening to everyone.
Post by: hunter v2.0 on December 29, 2023, 01:49:26 PM
I spent the morning listening the Tripping the live fantastic cd from McCartney, it's been quite a long time ago since I listened to it last time...
Wow Chris, yes, most of the songs are straight rock and roll, but some of them, specially the Macca solo songs and The Wings ones, some had some very tricky arrangements and great breaks and different fills here and there in the same song, I think I never heard it paying detailed attention to the drums parts. I totally understand everything you said when talking about playing the Macca songs!
I recommend this listening to everyone.
+1
Awesome live album.
Post by: Love Expresso on December 29, 2023, 01:56:37 PM
To get vinyl sound quality that matches good digital sound quality, you need to invest an insane amount in the gear (turntable, pickup, arm, RIAA, etc.) plus the records themselves must be top notch (audiophile pressings). I've heard some systems like that, where only the pickup costs almost £10k. Amazing. But the cost ... And the maintenance. No, thank you. Entry- and mid-level vinyl gear and ordinary pressings are a waste of time, unless sound quality is less important and you simply enjoy the "vinyl experience".
True but also a discussion as old as the CD is. Technically there is no doubt about the difference and that CD is "better". I would however not judge it with "better" or "worse" but with "different". Since I started to listen to vinyl again I listen to much more and different music and definitely enjoy it much more than during the last CD decades. You could describe it with "the vinyl experience" as you did but it is definitely more than just the way and act of listening. I got the BIA double vinyl from 2013 for Christmas and listen to it on a daily base since and I just LOVE the sound of it. It's just different. I couldn't bother to listen to the BIA CD for years and it's almost like a rediscovery. The words vinyl people use to describe the difference are true. CD is a wall, vinyl is a landscape.
LE
Post by: hunter v2.0 on December 29, 2023, 02:05:04 PM
;D
Post by: jbaent on December 29, 2023, 02:07:00 PM
To get vinyl sound quality that matches good digital sound quality, you need to invest an insane amount in the gear (turntable, pickup, arm, RIAA, etc.) plus the records themselves must be top notch (audiophile pressings). I've heard some systems like that, where only the pickup costs almost £10k. Amazing. But the cost ... And the maintenance. No, thank you. Entry- and mid-level vinyl gear and ordinary pressings are a waste of time, unless sound quality is less important and you simply enjoy the "vinyl experience".
True but also a discussion as old as the CD is. Technically there is no doubt about the difference and that CD is "better". I would however not judge it with "better" or "worse" but with "different". Since I started to listen to vinyl again I listen to much more and different music and definitely enjoy it much more than during the last CD decades. You could describe it with "the vinyl experience" as you did but it is definitely more than just the way and act of listening. I got the BIA double vinyl from 2013 for Christmas and listen to it on a daily base since and I just LOVE the sound of it. It's just dufferent. I couldn't bother to listen to the BIA CD for years and it's almost like a rediscovery. The words vinyl people use to describe the difference are true. CD is a wall, vinyl is a landscape.
LE
Totally agree, even with a cheap equipment you can feel that landscape sensation.
I remember playing some long ago the Making Movies lp and I was like, WOW, did they put new things on it? and they didn't, but it's like the music is wide, like spread around you, and when I listen a cd is more like something going straight to you.
These are just sensations, but they are true ones at least for me, glad LE described it the same way I feel it!
Post by: Chris W on December 29, 2023, 02:10:55 PM
The debate between vinyl and CD could go on for pages.
I grew up with vinyl, transitioned to CD in the late 80's like most people.
I had always kept some of my old vinyl, and bought some reissues a couple of years ago.
I A/B'ed the CD with the vinyl (same album, cued up to start together as much as possible) and I switched the 'CD' and 'Phono' button on my amplifier continually. The differences were minimal.
In the end I found the cost and inconvenience of vinyl didn't make up for the margins of sound (vibe or whatever) it delivered.
The cost of modern vinyl is horrendous. I would rather pay £10 to £12 for a CD than £25 to £30 for the vinyl.
But each to their own.
Post by: Chris W on December 29, 2023, 02:16:20 PM
I recommend this listening to everyone.
Thank you, much appreciated.
The McCartney tour was much more Rock n Roll.....maybe like the BIA tour. McCartney really went for it*, both in his singing and his playing. I was actually quite shocked at rehearsals as we got closer to the first show. Another major factor was that we were pretty much five instruments. Linda added a lot of vocals, but her keyboards were sparse. So there was a lot of improv, interaction and therefore fun between us.
On the OES tour it was just a wall of sound, with nine people playing all the time.In a way it had to be more organised or it would have become a cacophony of nine different people doing their own thing.
*Mark never really went for it in my opinion. His vocals were very low key, his guitar solos were very similar from show to show.
Post by: JF on December 29, 2023, 02:21:27 PM
Guy said they used it to separate tracks of "where do you think you are going" from the MFN compilation, as the archivist couldn't find the multitracks of it. Guy had to mix it in Atmos so he used a software, probably AI, to do it. He said it did the job but the results are not what he really needs.
Is it the demo version or the album version ?
The demo.
Guy also said that nobody knew from where that version came from, so there was no way to find the multitracks of that version and had to use an AI to extract the tracks and do the atmos mix.
Seems they have an issue with the archive, as Guy also said that the reason why Portobello live is from Hammersmith, and not from Paris, as originally was sourced, is becaude that was what the record company provided him, so I guess the persons in charge of the archive lost some items, like the demos from "Where do you think" came, and the Paris 83 tapes...
as said in the Oldfield book, the whole Communiqué album was recorded as demo in London in november 78, except the title track which was composed in Nassau in december.
They brought these demos in Nassau, because Jerry Wexler listened to it, before recording the album.
So I guess that Mark or Ed or David or John or Mercury/Phonogram/Warner... should have the tape somewhere.... but of course after all this time, maybe they don't remember where they shelved it ;D
and of course a very little chance that they kept the multitrack...
Post by: hunter v2.0 on December 29, 2023, 02:21:39 PM
Post by: Robson on December 29, 2023, 02:21:49 PM
But each to their own"
Exactly!
I know one thing. I'll stick with CD :)
Post by: hunter v2.0 on December 29, 2023, 02:26:55 PM
*Mark never really went for it in my opinion. His vocals were very low key, his guitar solos were very similar from show to show.
I've been wondering what happened with his vocals from 83 (Alchemy) to 92. He was never a "belter", but he totally went for it during the Alchemy show. Obviously 40? 60? cigarettes a day doesn't help LOL But that's an aspect that I've missed a lot during Mark's solo career. Very low-key vocals. It's like he's sitting in a recliner reading bedtime stories he-he
Post by: Chris W on December 29, 2023, 03:00:33 PM
If I was sat at my drums when Ade (the monitor guy) tested Mark's mic it absolutely took my head off. But during the show I need that extreme level to hear Mark's singing.
Post by: dmg on December 29, 2023, 03:01:33 PM
*Mark never really went for it in my opinion. His vocals were very low key, his guitar solos were very similar from show to show.
I've been wondering what happened with his vocals from 83 (Alchemy) to 92. He was never a "belter", but he totally went for it during the Alchemy show. Obviously 40? 60? cigarettes a day doesn't help LOL But that's an aspect that I've missed a lot during Mark's solo career. Very low-key vocals. It's like he's sitting in a recliner reading bedtime stories he-he
Often wondered this myself. The enthusiasm went after the BIA tour. He used to bounce up and down at the mic quite often and walk about on stage, then on the OES tour he stopped that bounce, barely moved from his spot and the vocals were world weary.
Post by: hunter v2.0 on December 29, 2023, 03:13:48 PM
*Mark never really went for it in my opinion. His vocals were very low key, his guitar solos were very similar from show to show.
I've been wondering what happened with his vocals from 83 (Alchemy) to 92. He was never a "belter", but he totally went for it during the Alchemy show. Obviously 40? 60? cigarettes a day doesn't help LOL But that's an aspect that I've missed a lot during Mark's solo career. Very low-key vocals. It's like he's sitting in a recliner reading bedtime stories he-he
Often wondered this myself. The enthusiasm went after the BIA tour. He used to bounce up and down at the mic quite often and walk about on stage, then on the OES tour he stopped that bounce, barely moved from his spot and the vocals were world weary.
Given the whole "negativity" clouding the OES tour, the lack of enthusiasm is understandable. But during the solo years, though? And what's more, on the records the voice is often buried deep in the mix. It's not like Mark and the engineers don't have ears or the technical competence to improve it.
Post by: herlock on December 29, 2023, 04:05:39 PM
Technically, the CD can be made to sound perfect. The fact that early CDs sounded "metallic" was because the mastering process was in its infancy, but today, a CD produced at British Grove studio can sound perfect. No matter what "Hi-rez" aficionados claim, 44.1khz sampling rate is more than enough to hear the whole human ear range (up to 20khz), we are not dogs, we can't hear ultrasounds... And 16-bit dynamic range is a bit small, but with proper dithering it can be made to accomodate 96 to 120db. On the contrary, the vinyl only has a 60db dynamic range. That is quite compressed, but as always, limitations are opportunities for clever mastering to shine, some vinyls are produced to make best use of this small range... Also, vinyls can render frequencies up to 50Khz, which is actually too much for the human earing, so no gain here.
Post by: tomtom51 on December 29, 2023, 04:12:36 PM
I recommend this listening to everyone.
Thank you, much appreciated.
The McCartney tour was much more Rock n Roll.....maybe like the BIA tour. McCartney really went for it*, both in his singing and his playing. I was actually quite shocked at rehearsals as we got closer to the first show. Another major factor was that we were pretty much five instruments. Linda added a lot of vocals, but her keyboards were sparse. So there was a lot of improv, interaction and therefore fun between us.
On the OES tour it was just a wall of sound, with nine people playing all the time.In a way it had to be more organised or it would have become a cacophony of nine different people doing their own thing.
*Mark never really went for it in my opinion. His vocals were very low key, his guitar solos were very similar from show to show.
If I might add, on the same era Knebworth live cd, Paul McCartney can be heard praising "young Mr Christopher" for the intro to Coming Up. Again, what a class act ! Thanks again for these great drum parts on that and TTLF.
Post by: Chris W on December 29, 2023, 04:30:31 PM
Post by: Matchstickman on December 29, 2023, 04:45:07 PM
Those songs are simple musically, but more complicated songs like Sultans and Tunnel seem to have sections that start in familiar territory, include improvisation, use familiar phrases as cues to both the band the audience, and finally end on the famous twiddly bits (or what have you).
Post by: Chris W on December 29, 2023, 05:19:45 PM
Of course there were certain themes and riffs that had to be played to signal the next part of the song.
I never knew what Robbie Macintosh or Macca were going to play in their solos, whereas Mark's solos were more of a variation on a theme from show to show.
Post by: iorch82 on December 29, 2023, 05:24:16 PM
As for Mark's soloing, surely some parts were always more or less improvised (or changed around) - the intro to Heavy Fuel, and the intros and outros of The Bug come to mind. They are all different in the performances with which I'm familiar.
Those songs are simple musically, but more complicated songs like Sultans and Tunnel seem to have sections that start in familiar territory, include improvisation, use familiar phrases as cues to both the band the audience, and finally end on the famous twiddly bits (or what have you).
PONO went through quite a big evolution in the ending solo from the very first tame-ish performances to the late US leg on which he went wild and explored quite unusual phrasings.
Post by: Matchstickman on December 29, 2023, 05:51:20 PM
Yeah, I would say the solos were always in part improvised, but more similar than not.
Of course there were certain themes and riffs that had to be played to signal the next part of the song.
I never knew what Robbie Macintosh or Macca were going to play in their solos, whereas Mark's solos were more of a variation on a theme from show to show.
Yes, but I think that this is one of Mark's strengths. Not only does this create a very high consistent level, in keeping with the original version but with parts added; it also creates something new each time. It is, in a way, the best of both worlds. What Mark plays often feels "just right" for that song. McCartney, in my experience, mostly plays short simple rock solos, so it is hard to compare to TR or SOS or BIA, with their long solos being fundamental parts of the songs on a more profound level.
Post by: dmg on December 29, 2023, 10:24:03 PM
As for Mark's soloing, surely some parts were always more or less improvised (or changed around) - the intro to Heavy Fuel, and the intros and outros of The Bug come to mind. They are all different in the performances with which I'm familiar.
Those songs are simple musically, but more complicated songs like Sultans and Tunnel seem to have sections that start in familiar territory, include improvisation, use familiar phrases as cues to both the band the audience, and finally end on the famous twiddly bits (or what have you).
I would agree with that; his solos have always seemed structured and very lyrical. A lot of other guitarists have solos that go nowhere and sound very messy, but not Mark. They usually have their recognisable phrases, which the fans can all lock onto, then some variation in between.
Post by: ds1984 on December 30, 2023, 12:47:40 AM
As for Mark's soloing, surely some parts were always more or less improvised (or changed around) - the intro to Heavy Fuel, and the intros and outros of The Bug come to mind. They are all different in the performances with which I'm familiar.
Those songs are simple musically, but more complicated songs like Sultans and Tunnel seem to have sections that start in familiar territory, include improvisation, use familiar phrases as cues to both the band the audience, and finally end on the famous twiddly bits (or what have you).
PONO went through quite a big evolution in the ending solo from the very first tame-ish performances to the late US leg on which he went wild and explored quite unusual phrasings.
My fave version is from Dublin 91
Post by: Chris W on December 30, 2023, 10:42:17 AM
What Mark plays often feels "just right" for that song. McCartney, in my experience, mostly plays short simple rock solos, so it is hard to compare to TR or SOS or BIA, with their long solos being fundamental parts of the songs on a more profound level.
I talked about McCartney AND Robbie McIntosh. Of course Macca is a beginner guitarist compared to Mark, although I found Paul's solos often soulful. Robbie however is one of the best guitarists I've ever played with.
Post by: Chris W on December 30, 2023, 10:44:06 AM
PONO went through quite a big evolution in the ending solo from the very first tame-ish performances to the late US leg on which he went wild and explored quite unusual phrasings.
We hardly played the song, so it never got settled like the mainstays of the set.
Post by: Marnix on December 30, 2023, 11:13:28 AM
Let’s hope we will get more recordings from the vaults
Post by: herlock on December 30, 2023, 11:14:54 AM
Ok 85 versions may be better, but this one is very, very enjoyable too. The more I listen to it the more I love it!
Post by: jbaent on December 30, 2023, 12:03:20 PM
PONO went through quite a big evolution in the ending solo from the very first tame-ish performances to the late US leg on which he went wild and explored quite unusual phrasings.
We hardly played the song, so it never got settled like the mainstays of the set.
That song is featured in a lot of concerts as far as recordings we have from the start until the May 92 part of the tour, then it disappears.
There are great versions from the NA leg of the tour where the song is featured in most of the recordings available, also in many of the European gigs before the NA leg. After the American leg I think is featured just in some concerts, being Paris Bercy probably the last one we have a recording.
Post by: Chris W on December 30, 2023, 12:16:03 PM
In my mind it certainly wasn't a regular in the set, albeit I agree, it pops up on other legs from time to time.
The repetitious solos I'm talking about are the songs that go back further. The solos evolved over several tours, they evolved less from week to week on the 92 tour.
Post by: tomtom51 on December 30, 2023, 02:29:14 PM
What Mark plays often feels "just right" for that song. McCartney, in my experience, mostly plays short simple rock solos, so it is hard to compare to TR or SOS or BIA, with their long solos being fundamental parts of the songs on a more profound level.
I talked about McCartney AND Robbie McIntosh. Of course Macca is a beginner guitarist compared to Mark, although I found Paul's solos often soulful. Robbie however is one of the best guitarists I've ever played with.
For instance: https://youtu.be/BORQTtjscTg?si=2WOcS0dPrA4io6ys
Post by: tomtom51 on December 30, 2023, 02:32:34 PM
And of course: https://youtu.be/hWOWuLWofv8?si=s09gXMyYhc4fTrrcWhat Mark plays often feels "just right" for that song. McCartney, in my experience, mostly plays short simple rock solos, so it is hard to compare to TR or SOS or BIA, with their long solos being fundamental parts of the songs on a more profound level.
I talked about McCartney AND Robbie McIntosh. Of course Macca is a beginner guitarist compared to Mark, although I found Paul's solos often soulful. Robbie however is one of the best guitarists I've ever played with.
For instance: https://youtu.be/BORQTtjscTg?si=2WOcS0dPrA4io6ys
Post by: Chris W on December 30, 2023, 03:07:36 PM
https://youtu.be/IXiKEAF2Wkg?si=xh8Uu-GVBvO5WtwW
Post by: Robson on December 30, 2023, 03:14:34 PM
Post by: jbaent on December 30, 2023, 03:35:26 PM
And of course: https://youtu.be/hWOWuLWofv8?si=s09gXMyYhc4fTrrcWhat Mark plays often feels "just right" for that song. McCartney, in my experience, mostly plays short simple rock solos, so it is hard to compare to TR or SOS or BIA, with their long solos being fundamental parts of the songs on a more profound level.
I talked about McCartney AND Robbie McIntosh. Of course Macca is a beginner guitarist compared to Mark, although I found Paul's solos often soulful. Robbie however is one of the best guitarists I've ever played with.
For instance: https://youtu.be/BORQTtjscTg?si=2WOcS0dPrA4io6ys
Robbie is a favourite of most of us, he played many times with MK and we all loved what he played and how he played.
It's a pity he never got to be the MK guitarist on tours, but he did the 4 gigs of MK and friends in 2002 and played in many promotional gigs and also some studio recordings, like two songs in the last MK record (down the road whatever) and also the Local hero musical demos.
We love Robbie!
Post by: Chris W on December 30, 2023, 04:22:41 PM
Chris you are amazing in Telegraph Road. Not only in the Telegraph, but now I'm listening to the Telegraph once again:)
Thank you.
Post by: Marnix on December 30, 2023, 06:31:17 PM
I think it was definitely played most on the North America leg.
In my mind it certainly wasn't a regular in the set, albeit I agree, it pops up on other legs from time to time.
The repetitious solos I'm talking about are the songs that go back further. The solos evolved over several tours, they evolved less from week to week on the 92 tour.
Did someone from the crew also made recordings during the rehearsals/ soundcheck/ concert from the soundboard to listen to the songs you played to improve the playing or change the arrangements for example?
Post by: ds1984 on December 30, 2023, 06:34:40 PM
I think it was definitely played most on the North America leg.
In my mind it certainly wasn't a regular in the set, albeit I agree, it pops up on other legs from time to time.
The repetitious solos I'm talking about are the songs that go back further. The solos evolved over several tours, they evolved less from week to week on the 92 tour.
I checked On Every Bootleg site
The '91 european leg is featuring 32 gigs recorded panning from 23rd August 1991 in Dublin to 14th October 1991 in Zurich
PONO appear in 100 % of the recordings
Always performed on the first quarter of the show.
Fifth position is usual number - and I would say it was 90% of the time.
When not in fifth position, it was between the third and seventh position.
We have only two recordings from the down under leg, PONO was still there.
For the '92 US leg 27 gigs are featured
For the first 16 available recordings, PONO appear 15 times always performed in fifth position.
The only recording where PONO is not featured is said being the full show - third US recording - 5th February 1992 - Sports Arena, San Diego, USA.
The 17th recording (2nd March 1992 - Spectrum, Philadelphia, USA) is very partial show and do not feature PONO
The last ten recordings are full or almost full.
From 4th March 1992 - War Memorial, Syracuse, USA to 4th April 1992 - Center Coliseum, Seattle, USA
PONO is performed 6 times
The first two ones at the usual fifth position
The las four ones at various position within the third quarter of the show (ie between SOS and TYL).
Edit : I checked and only available recording is Paris April 27.
I still mourn missing the '91 leg because PONO is my fave song of the show and I feel sooooo unlucky only witnessing PONOless gig in '92.
Post by: Chris W on December 30, 2023, 06:43:19 PM
One popular site had us playing Calling Elvis fewer times than we played shows, even though we opened with it at EVERY show.
Another site claims there were no encores at 55 shows, when we played at east one encore at EVERY show.
PONO obviously wasn't played in the block before the recording and filming for 'On The Night'.
One set list site says PONO was played 67 times in 229 shows, which seems about right to me.
Post by: ds1984 on December 30, 2023, 06:49:10 PM
I am skeptical about set lists on the web.
One popular site had us playing Calling Elvis fewer times than we played shows, even though we opened with it at EVERY show.
Another site claims there were no encores at 55 shows, when we played at east one encore at EVERY show.
PONO obviously wasn't played in the block before the recording and filming for 'On The Night'.
One set list site says PONO was played 67 times in 229 shows, which seems about right to me.
I am not talking about setlist but actual recordings.
On Every Bootleg (http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/) is very trustable, not 100% error free but 99%
I don't trust setlist.fm and the info I post don't come from them.
And please note what I wrote :
Edit : I have striked what I previously wrote as Paris 27th is the ONLY known recording from the '92 european leg featuring PONO.
So the accurate word is not "random" but "dropped" until new recordings will surface and prove this wrong.
What I can add is that PONO was played at Bercy in '92 at least one night (27th April 1992) and we don't know which night(s) was\were recorded with the studio mobile.
Yes at the time of the filmings for OTN, from the available audience recordings PONO seems to be a permanently dropped song from the setlist - but I did not check all the available recordings made before or after Rotterdam and Nimes.
Post by: iorch82 on December 30, 2023, 08:14:20 PM
I am skeptical about set lists on the web.
One popular site had us playing Calling Elvis fewer times than we played shows, even though we opened with it at EVERY show.
Another site claims there were no encores at 55 shows, when we played at east one encore at EVERY show.
PONO obviously wasn't played in the block before the recording and filming for 'On The Night'.
One set list site says PONO was played 67 times in 229 shows, which seems about right to me.
I am not talking about setlist but actual recordings.
On Every Bootleg (http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/) is very trustable, not 100% error free but 99%
I don't trust setlist.fm and the info I post don't come from them.
And please note what I wrote : during the '92 european leg PONO was still featured in the setlist but more and more on a random basis.
What I can add is that PONO was played at Bercy in '92 at least one night (27th April 1992) and we don't know which night(s) was\were recorded with the studio mobile.
Yes at the time of the filmings for OTN, from the available audience recordings PONO seems to be a permanently dropped song from the setlist - but I did not check all the available recordings made before or after Rotterdam and Nimes.
Do you have any 92 EUR leg example of PONO other than the two Bercy examples? By the way, my favourite song from the tour as well.
Post by: ds1984 on December 30, 2023, 09:36:10 PM
Post by: Brunno Nunes on December 30, 2023, 09:41:12 PM
On the other hand, PONO is a song that was played much more on the tour than Iron Hand, Fade to Black, When it Comes to you, YTILTM, even Wild Theme, as it was present in the set of that tour between August 1991 and April 1992, practically nine months..
Post by: Chris W on December 31, 2023, 10:06:14 AM
I am not talking about setlist but actual recordings.
Well I was just saying we didn't play the song that often, and the figure of 67 times in 229 shows seems about right. A large amount of that 67 would be the North American tour.
Post by: Chris W on December 31, 2023, 10:10:25 AM
On the other hand, PONO is a song that was played much more on the tour than Iron Hand, Fade to Black, When it Comes to you, YTILTM, even Wild Theme, as it was present in the set of that tour between August 1991 and April 1992, practically nine months..
Somehow the 'Wild Theme' was missed by these sites, or renamed on some set lists. From my memory we always closed the show with Mark, Alan and Guy playing the theme from Local Hero.
Some set list sites have us playing 'Calling Elvis' fewer times than shows, but we always opened with it. We always played at least one encore, while set lists sites claim we didn't play an encore at 55 shows.
It is an error of information gathering, that's all.
All the other songs you list above were (yes) hardly ever played. After the initial UK leg, which felt experimental, there was pretty much a core set with two or three songs coming in and out of the set from time to time.
Core songs:
Calling Elvis
Walk of Life
Heavy Fuel
Romeo and Juliet
The Bug
Private Investigations
Sultans of Swing
Your Latest Trick
On Every Street
Two Young Lovers
Telegraph Road
Tunnel of Love
Money for Nothing
Brothers in Arms
Wild Theme/Local Hero/Going Home - whatever you call it....Mark playing a theme from Local Hero accompanied by Guy and Alan.
Post by: ds1984 on December 31, 2023, 12:37:12 PM
I am not talking about setlist but actual recordings.
Well I was just saying we didn't play the song that often, and the figure of 67 times in 229 shows seems about right. A large amount of that 67 would be the North American tour.
I assume that PONO was performed 43 times in 1991 in europe alone.
We had have 32 night available and the score is 100% on these 32 recordings.
The US tour was 52 shows
We have 27 seven recordings
PONO is featured 21 times
I can't speak about Ocenia in between as we are lacking recordings from that leg.
And PONO was dropped after the US leg.
Post by: Chris W on December 31, 2023, 12:49:12 PM
Going back to my earlier point.... Mark's solos seemed to me to follow a repeated pattern for the most part, rather than an evolving improvisation.
Don't really know why anyone is arguing about that.
Post by: Chris W on December 31, 2023, 01:02:07 PM
Maybe we played it at Paris Bercy in case it could go on the live album?
Lots of different sets were tried between Leg 1 (UK/Europe), Australia and North America.
By the time we started the home stretch (Easter 1992, Metz) I think the song selection was perfect for the outdoor stadium shows.
Post by: Love Expresso on December 31, 2023, 01:07:01 PM
If you are too critical about MK around here, it will give some people bad mood. This is from MK fans for MK fans, not a neutral music/guitar/drum forum.. however, freedom of speech is the highest rule here.
I think all members are VERY happy to have you around as it is just a perfect occasion to get information from someone who was so close to MK and worked in the band.
About solos, you are certainly right. MK is going for the safety net in every aspect of his career, you could say he is a control freak for sure, so any other way of doing guitar solos would have been very astonishing.
"The song is the king" is his mantra and it seems a too self indulging solo would be something that sets a spotlight on the player too much and distracts from the song. I personally find that attitude rubbish.
The live recordings from 2013 for example show some evolvement of solos over the course of 80+ shows though. Hill Farmer's Blues, Kingdom of Gold are some good examples.
LE
Post by: Chris W on December 31, 2023, 01:20:34 PM
He seemed to me a very cerebral, calculating kind of guy. Solos seemed constructed rather than off the cuff.
Nothing wrong with gradually working your way towards the perfect solo.
The older songs with long solos had evolved over many years and several tours. The OES song solos started based on the studio solos and only slightly evolved from there (in my opinion).
Post by: ds1984 on December 31, 2023, 01:22:58 PM
On the other hand, PONO is a song that was played much more on the tour than Iron Hand, Fade to Black, When it Comes to you, YTILTM, even Wild Theme, as it was present in the set of that tour between August 1991 and April 1992, practically nine months..
Somehow the 'Wild Theme' was missed by these sites, or renamed on some set lists. From my memory we always closed the show with Mark, Alan and Guy playing the theme from Local Hero.
Some set list sites have us playing 'Calling Elvis' fewer times than shows, but we always opened with it. We always played at least one encore, while set lists sites claim we didn't play an encore at 55 shows.
It is an error of information gathering, that's all.
All the other songs you list above were (yes) hardly ever played. After the initial UK leg, which felt experimental, there was pretty much a core set with two or three songs coming in and out of the set from time to time.
Core songs:
Calling Elvis
Walk of Life
Heavy Fuel
Romeo and Juliet
The Bug
Private Investigations
Sultans of Swing
Your Latest Trick
On Every Street
Two Young Lovers
Telegraph Road
Tunnel of Love
Money for Nothing
Brothers in Arms
Wild Theme/Local Hero/Going Home - whatever you call it....Mark playing a theme from Local Hero accompanied by Guy and Alan.
That a bit stressful for me to have to contradict you again.
Man your memory is not perfect. But it was so long ago
The encore for most of the shows before Europe '92 was Solid Rock.
Alse we Dire Straits nerds are doing the difference between Going Home and Wild Theme.
Again Oneverybootlegs is serious and he always names it Wild Theme - so no confusion and consistency
Wild Theme went regular during Europe 1992
I won't do the stat again for that one it is too time consuming but the early typical setlist in europe 92 was :
Calling Elvis
Walk of life
Heavy fuel
Romeo and Juliet
The bug
Private investigations
Sultans of swing
Rotating title
Your latest trick
On every street
Two young lovers
Telegraph road or Tunnel of Love
Money for nothing
Brothers in arms
Solid rock
The case of Wild theme : we have one recording from 1991, the opening night in Dublin on 24th August 1991
Then recordings from may 8 and may 9 in Barcelona do feature it before Solid Rock
Recordings from may 13 in Madrid has it performed after Solid Rock
Then Wild Theme is performed the three nights in Nimes, but missing from Nantes and Werchter recording and reappear on Rotterdam recording from 30th May 1992.
I personaly attended Werchter and I can say that it was not performed there - the show ended on Solid Rock.
It is clear for me as it was same setlist but only one change with my Paris show (Paris = Iron Hand, Werchter = When it comes to you)
From Rotterdam onward, Wild theme is on almost all the known recordings so I assume it was performed every night after that.
Post by: Love Expresso on December 31, 2023, 01:25:46 PM
I dunno.
He seemed to me a very cerebral, calculating kind of guy. Solos seemed constructed rather than off the cuff.
Nothing wrong with gradually working your way towards the perfect solo.
The older songs with long solos had evolved over many years and several tours. The OES song solos started based on the studio solos and only slightly evolved from there (in my opinion).
Perfect observation, fully agree.
LE
Post by: Chris W on December 31, 2023, 01:32:23 PM
That a bit stressful for me to have to contradict you again.
Man your memory is not perfect. But it was so long ago
The encore fro most of the show was Solid Rock.
I never stated Wild Theme was an encore. Just that from memory it was a long standing show closer. It only involved three people and was specifically designed to get the band off stage and into cars ready to do the post show runner.
Across the whole tour we rarely walked backstage to the dressing room after the show. It was always a car drive to an airport or hotel.
If you wait until the crowd are leaving you sit in traffic for hours (in sweaty clothes) just like everyone else. So you get out of the venue while the crowd are still walking to their cars.
This is the reason most outdoor shows end with a big firework display.
I totally agree, my memory can be fuzzy. It maybe we only adopted this runner method (all the band apart from Mark, Alan and Guy) when we started to mostly play large outdoor stadiums.
Post by: Love Expresso on December 31, 2023, 01:43:20 PM
LE
Post by: Chris W on December 31, 2023, 01:43:38 PM
Post by: ds1984 on December 31, 2023, 01:46:07 PM
Well as I was first row so I had to cross the concert field all the way to the back.
Then to retrieve what parking field I had left my car :hmm
There was parking fields everywhere around... :smack
Post by: Love Expresso on December 31, 2023, 01:47:07 PM
LE
Post by: Chris W on December 31, 2023, 01:47:26 PM
Ok but how did Mark, Guy and Alan leave then? During the Max. one or two minutes between the last note and the end of fireworks? It must literally been a "runner" for the three of them. Honestly asking.
LE
No problem.
The whole band had previously bowed and wandered off stage. After 'Local Hero' really only Mark needed to linger, accepting the final ovation.
So two ran from the stage and into the last car, followed quickly by Mark.
Takes less time to usher three people into one car, than nine people into multiple cars, each undecided which car to jump into.
At the open air shows we always had fireworks too, to buy us some more time.
Post by: Chris W on December 31, 2023, 01:51:50 PM
Money was the first encore.
Then Brothers in Arms, Solid Rock (and almost always in my memory) Local Hero.
You couldn't end the show without playing Brothers In Aarms, so in my opinion, there were always two encores.
Post by: Robson on December 31, 2023, 02:20:35 PM
For me, these words have always had a different meaning. Certainly not in the concert sense.
It's natural that the live versions have always been different, developed and longer
Post by: Chris W on December 31, 2023, 02:23:06 PM
Post by: iorch82 on December 31, 2023, 03:33:26 PM
I dunno.
He seemed to me a very cerebral, calculating kind of guy. Solos seemed constructed rather than off the cuff.
Nothing wrong with gradually working your way towards the perfect solo.
The older songs with long solos had evolved over many years and several tours. The OES song solos started based on the studio solos and only slightly evolved from there (in my opinion).
Not the case with PONO solo IMO, much faster, having a much wider variety of licks and sophisticated phrasings that were not to be found in any other song of the repertorie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnmp2OYecSY&t=1416s
I mean, compare that crazy Worcester solo with the recording one.
Post by: Chris W on December 31, 2023, 03:42:57 PM
Post by: Chris W on December 31, 2023, 03:44:24 PM
Anyway..... all I said was that it was 1) a new song and 2) was not played often enough to cement in a repeated guitar solo.
Post by: Marnix on December 31, 2023, 03:44:33 PM
I am really fortunate the I have seen that tour live and have now a professional recording of almost all songs I have heard live in Rotterdam 91 and 92.
Post by: dmg on December 31, 2023, 05:21:27 PM
That was my point. He was still experimenting with PONO, rather than repeating the solo formula like he did with Sultan's, Telegraph etc...
Pretty sure I've mentioned that before myself about PONO. It's certainly a fan favourite and one he should've persisted with but I never thought he really sounded comfortable with the solo and it was well out of his comfort zone until the sax comes in and the smile comes on his face because he's back inside it again. Don't get me wrong, it's still one of my favourites and it's also a very interesting track musically for that reason.
It was a long time ago and I was only young but I seem to recall it being well received in Glasgow. Strange that he chose to play stuff like Fade to Black and When it Comes to You in stadiums instead of this.
Post by: iorch82 on December 31, 2023, 05:43:47 PM
That was my point. He was still experimenting with PONO, rather than repeating the solo formula like he did with Sultan's, Telegraph etc...
Pretty sure I've mentioned that before myself about PONO. It's certainly a fan favourite and one he should've persisted with but I never thought he really sounded comfortable with the solo and it was well out of his comfort zone until the sax comes in and the smile comes on his face because he's back inside it again. Don't get me wrong, it's still one of my favourites and it's also a very interesting track musically for that reason.
It was a long time ago and I was only young but I seem to recall it being well received in Glasgow. Strange that he chose to play stuff like Fade to Black and When it Comes to You in stadiums instead of this.
Yeah, or even the super bland Heavy Fuel which for some reason they never stopped playing. In any case both FTB and WITCY are songs far easier for him to execute.
Besides, totally agree with your observation on his confort zone, though it led to really unique brilliant moments at the expense a bunch of tiny mistakes here and there.
Post by: hunter v2.0 on January 01, 2024, 09:42:48 AM
I dunno.
He seemed to me a very cerebral, calculating kind of guy. Solos seemed constructed rather than off the cuff.
Nothing wrong with gradually working your way towards the perfect solo.
The older songs with long solos had evolved over many years and several tours. The OES song solos started based on the studio solos and only slightly evolved from there (in my opinion).
Not the case with PONO solo IMO, much faster, having a much wider variety of licks and sophisticated phrasings that were not to be found in any other song of the repertorie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnmp2OYecSY&t=1416s
I mean, compare that crazy Worcester solo with the recording one.
I don't care for Mark's solos during PONO. At that time, he certainly had chops and speed, but he doesn't have the jazz language to pull off long, fast and fluid lines over the many quirky chord changes. It sounds like a rocker attempting to play jazz, which, in essence, is what was the case.
Post by: ds1984 on January 01, 2024, 10:33:33 AM
I dunno.
He seemed to me a very cerebral, calculating kind of guy. Solos seemed constructed rather than off the cuff.
Nothing wrong with gradually working your way towards the perfect solo.
The older songs with long solos had evolved over many years and several tours. The OES song solos started based on the studio solos and only slightly evolved from there (in my opinion).
Not the case with PONO solo IMO, much faster, having a much wider variety of licks and sophisticated phrasings that were not to be found in any other song of the repertorie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnmp2OYecSY&t=1416s
I mean, compare that crazy Worcester solo with the recording one.
I don't care for Mark's solos during PONO. At that time, he certainly had chops and speed, but he doesn't have the jazz language to pull off long, fast and fluid lines over the many quirky chord changes. It sounds like a rocker attempting to play jazz, which, in essence, is what was the case.
The buesy-jazzy influence is even more evident on Fade to Black.
PONO has its own atmosphere, it is not pure rock.
It is my fave track from OES and YAYF come second.
Post by: Chris W on January 01, 2024, 10:34:32 AM
Strange that he chose to play stuff like Fade to Black and When it Comes to You in stadiums instead of this.
Well neither were set staples.
Post by: Chris W on January 01, 2024, 10:36:37 AM
Yeah, or even the super bland Heavy Fuel which for some reason they never stopped playing.
It went down incredibly well at every show. PONO didn't from my memory.
I would have LOVED to play When It Comes To You the whole tour, also So Far Away.
Post by: ds1984 on January 01, 2024, 10:46:25 AM
But the fans obviously loved it.
What about the general audience, the normal people.
How did you receive the public reaction?
I guess you could feel how the audience would appreciate a song, what song was more popular and what one had quiter response.
I could have lived without getting Heavy Fuel, and TYL also, to give room to other stuff.
Post by: Matchstickman on January 02, 2024, 06:15:28 PM
Fade to Black was placed elsewhere in the set. Was it not used as a breather after SOS, the showstopper?
Post by: Chris W on January 02, 2024, 06:26:20 PM
It seemed to me many of the songs off OES (studio album) were tried and didn't find a permanent place in the set if they weren't as good as or better than an older song in that spot. 'As good as' meaning - they were fun to play and went down well with the audience.
Post by: Matchstickman on January 02, 2024, 06:28:58 PM
Post by: Chris W on January 02, 2024, 06:41:50 PM
It was before people started to do that.
Paul McC had lyric sheets when he played the piano songs, but he'd also never played some of those songs live before. I think it was a comfort blanket. Mark obviously knew his songs and the lyrics.
Post by: Matchstickman on January 02, 2024, 07:06:34 PM
I recall Guy saying that he used no prompter on the solo tours either, at least up till then.
I know some artists used to use lyric sheets, and yet Mark seems incredibly good at getting the lines right, especially considering that he often played lead guitar simultaneosly.
Post by: Matchstickman on January 03, 2024, 03:34:51 PM
First, they played Iron Hand and ITILYTM.
Second, Mark mentions that he made "a little demo tape" of ITILYTM in London which he "sent out", and which got recorded by Jeff Healey. Did this demo include a band? Do you know, Chris?
Third, they must have changed the order of the soloing at the end, perhaps between the US and Europe legs. In the box set version, Phil is playing the final solo bit, but in Syracuse it's Mark (note the final typical descending scale run).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLGAhl2w9o4&t=4447s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLGAhl2w9o4&t=4447s)
Post by: dustyvalentino on January 03, 2024, 04:11:05 PM
Post by: Rolo on January 03, 2024, 04:24:02 PM
According to Wiki, Hell to Pay by Jeff Healy was recorded Jan-Feb 1990 which was before Chris joined up with DS I believe? Also, it was played on the NHB tour in 1990, so maybe the band worked on it for the Missing... album but didn't use it, and that formed the "demo"?
I always thought that the OES album is an extension of the NHB album.
Well, YTYLTM and WICTY have been performed during the NHB tour in 1990. So, in my mind, songs like Calling Elvis, Iron Hand, Ticket To Heaven, How Long, The Bug and Fade to Black were planned for the NHB album or even a second NHB album.
Maybe MK chaged his mind and choosed to change these songs a little bit and made them into the OES album.
Post by: Chris W on January 03, 2024, 04:53:23 PM
I think I briefly went there once and from vague memory there wasn't room for a drum kit.
I presume Mark mostly demoed songs on guitar. If any other instruments were required like bass or drums, Guy would play them off a keyboard.
Post by: Matchstickman on January 03, 2024, 05:02:08 PM
Mark had a small, but well equipped, personal studio in Chiswick (before British Grove).
I think I briefly went there once and from vague memory there wasn't room for a drum kit.
I presume Mark mostly demoed songs on guitar. If any other instruments were required like bass or drums, Guy would play them off a keyboard.
Thank you, Chris.
And in case anyone is taking notes, Phil plays the final solo of ITILYTM in East Rutherford. Not sure whether this means that the number of solos varied, which would be very unusual for DS.
Post by: Matchstickman on January 03, 2024, 05:06:47 PM
According to Wiki, Hell to Pay by Jeff Healy was recorded Jan-Feb 1990 which was before Chris joined up with DS I believe? Also, it was played on the NHB tour in 1990, so maybe the band worked on it for the Missing... album but didn't use it, and that formed the "demo"?
I always thought that the OES album is an extension of the NHB album.
Well, YTYLTM and WICTY have been performed during the NHB tour in 1990. So, in my mind, songs like Calling Elvis, Iron Hand, Ticket To Heaven, How Long, The Bug and Fade to Black were planned for the NHB album or even a second NHB album.
Maybe MK chaged his mind and choosed to change these songs a little bit and made them into the OES album.
Interesting point! It is noteworthy that two of the best songs (ITILYTM, When it Comes) on the NHB tour were not on the album, possibly deliberately saved for a later album
Post by: Rolo on January 03, 2024, 06:31:53 PM
Interesting point! It is noteworthy that two of the best songs (ITILYTM, When it Comes) on the NHB tour were not on the album, possibly deliberately saved for a later album
"proof" of that is that the NHB arrangement for Calling Elvis seems to be a mix between the original idea (that was a rockabilly) and the OES album version.
Another song that suffer a BIG change was Fade To Black. As mentioned by MK himself, this song was planned to be another rockabilly style.
Maybe the idea for a secong NHB album was a 'all original songs' instead the first one that was a 'cover album'
Maybe, Ed pushed Mark enought to transform it on the next Straits album.
Maybe, maybe, by contract, Mark needed to release another Straits album. He had the songs, so... why not?
Maybe... ;D
Post by: jbaent on January 03, 2024, 06:41:01 PM
Post by: Robson on January 03, 2024, 06:46:22 PM
Post by: Robson on January 03, 2024, 06:58:16 PM
I remember reading in some promotional interviews that he wanted to do a blues album with Brendan Crocker...
I remember album "The Kershaw Sessions" and four songs with MK.
Or "The Great Indoors"
Post by: ds1984 on January 03, 2024, 07:28:11 PM
He was partly living in the US and was doing business associated with a music publisher in Nashville.
The NHB started as a production team planned for the next Brendan Crocker solo album...
Post by: Matchstickman on January 04, 2024, 10:01:18 AM
At the time Mark was involved with other's people dreams as he said himself.
He was partly living in the US and was doing business associated with a music publisher in Nashville.
So this is why When it Comes to You became a John Anderson song, and I Think... became a Healey song :think
Still, they recorded When it Comes for the album. It's hard to fathom why they prioritised obviously inferior tracks like Kingdom Come and My Parties over what could have been a minor classic (ITILYTM).
Post by: dustyvalentino on January 04, 2024, 10:13:57 AM
At the time Mark was involved with other's people dreams as he said himself.
He was partly living in the US and was doing business associated with a music publisher in Nashville.
So this is why When it Comes to You became a John Anderson song, and I Think... became a Healey song :think
Still, they recorded When it Comes for the album. It's hard to fathom why they prioritised obviously inferior tracks like Kingdom Come and My Parties over what could have been a minor classic (ITILYTM).
Agreed.
Also, what's the deal with the middle 8?
Post by: Rolo on January 04, 2024, 12:38:42 PM
The NHB started as a production team planned for the next Brendan Crocker solo album...
Are you telling me that NHB didn't born on a unpretentious friends reunion? ;)
It's all about business after all.
(contain traces of sarcasm. In a good way, of course)
Post by: Rolo on January 04, 2024, 12:45:09 PM
I remember album "The Kershaw Sessions" and four songs with MK.
Or "The Great Indoors"
The song Running On Down This Road reminds me (a lot) Kingdom Come.
With brings life to the Matchstickman comment about minor songs like Kingdom Come and My Parties.
Post by: Robson on January 04, 2024, 12:50:52 PM
At the time Mark was involved with other's people dreams as he said himself.
He was partly living in the US and was doing business associated with a music publisher in Nashville.
So this is why When it Comes to You became a John Anderson song, and I Think... became a Healey song :think
Still, they recorded When it Comes for the album. It's hard to fathom why they prioritised obviously inferior tracks like Kingdom Come and My Parties over what could have been a minor classic (ITILYTM).
But Kingdom Come was the B-side. Too bad Millionaire Blues is too.
Post by: Rolo on January 04, 2024, 01:58:58 PM
Still, they recorded When it Comes for the album. It's hard to fathom why they prioritised obviously inferior tracks like Kingdom Come and My Parties over what could have been a minor classic (ITILYTM).
Based on fellows comments, just for fun, i made my fictional OES album tracklist:
Calling Elvis
I Think I Love You Too Much
On Every Street
Heavy Fuel
Iron Hand
You And Your Friend
Your Own Sweet Way
When It Comes To You
The Bug
Planet Of New Orleans
Post by: cannibals on January 07, 2024, 12:26:18 AM
New formats.....
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/dire-straits-on-every-street-mfsl-sacd-and-vinyl-up-for-preorder.1171409/
Post by: cannibals on January 07, 2024, 12:39:50 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001b9yc
.
Post by: Robson on January 07, 2024, 02:40:26 PM
Post by: Chris W on January 07, 2024, 02:59:13 PM
I liked Guy and Danny, but they had their own posse with Alan, and sometimes Phil.
John was OK too, but one has not much in common with 1) your employer and 2) millionaire rock stars.
Post by: Robson on January 07, 2024, 03:08:44 PM
Eating, maybe walking arounds the venues with my camera. I mostly hung out with Chris White and Paul Franklin, from beginning to end of the tour.
I liked Guy and Danny, but they had their own posse with Alan, and sometimes Phil.
John was OK too, but one has not much in common with 1) your employer and 2) millionaire rock stars.
Thank you for your answer. :)
Do you remember why Dire Straits didn't come to Poland? Has anyone mentioned this? What were the reasons?
Post by: Matchstickman on January 07, 2024, 03:27:44 PM
This also created the issue of having (too?) many players on stage, all of whom needing something to do (a sax player playing tambourine, etc.). Listening to Telegraph Road, one is struck by the number of different instruments used for soloing, and it's hard not to think that "that used to be a distorted guitar".
Post by: Marnix on January 07, 2024, 03:28:21 PM
Did you guys also recorded some of the rehearsals or soundchecks for improvement or changes in the arrangements of the songs during the tour ?
Post by: Chris W on January 07, 2024, 04:01:20 PM
@Chris Witten
Did you guys also recorded some of the rehearsals or soundchecks for improvement or changes in the arrangements of the songs during the tour ?
Nope. We rarely sound checked. Sound checks, which were also a bit of a rehearsal, were usually the day before the first show of each leg - so before Australia, before North America, before Europe at Easter 1992.
Post by: Chris W on January 07, 2024, 04:07:28 PM
Bringing Paul Franklin along for the tour, as good a player as he is, has always been somewhat puzzling. He did not seem a logical choice for DS. It seemed that Mark wanted to listen to his pedal steel, and perhaps jam a bit with him, but that country vibe felt a bit off.
This also created the issue of having (too?) many players on stage, all of whom needing something to do (a sax player playing tambourine, etc.). Listening to Telegraph Road, one is struck by the number of different instruments used for soloing, and it's hard not to think that "that used to be a distorted guitar".
I agree and disagree.
Paul was one of the best things about the show (for me). He wasn't 'country', he could solo in any genre as well as anyone on stage, he could play Be-Bop jazz on pedal steel. I think Mark had him there because he was an outstanding musician he respected, also because it would be hard to play some of the OES tracks without him (You and Your Friend). Paul's solo on Walk Of Life was always a highlight for me.
I don't think Phil brought anything other than solid rhythm guitar.
Much as I loved Danny - nice guy, amazing player - I don't think you needed percussion on every song, nor someone doubling up on cymbal crashes, tom fills etc.
I totally agree with you though, it would have been amazing to have the smallest unit playing on some songs, and only add players where they were needed. Instead, it WAS a wall of sound, with all nine people playing on every song (except the first half of Sultans).
Post by: Marnix on January 07, 2024, 04:09:15 PM
@Chris Witten
Did you guys also recorded some of the rehearsals or soundchecks for improvement or changes in the arrangements of the songs during the tour ?
Nope. We rarely sound checked. Sound checks, which were also a bit of a rehearsal, were usually the day before the first show of each leg - so before Australia, before North America, before Europe at Easter 1992.
Thnx for your reply. I was curious because some artists or bands also record their soundcheck of rehearsal.
Post by: hunter v2.0 on January 07, 2024, 04:11:12 PM
@Chris Witten
Did you guys also recorded some of the rehearsals or soundchecks for improvement or changes in the arrangements of the songs during the tour ?
Nope. We rarely sound checked. Sound checks, which were also a bit of a rehearsal, were usually the day before the first show of each leg - so before Australia, before North America, before Europe at Easter 1992.
Wow, that's surprising given that you did play a great variety of venues. And back then you used wedges, not in-ears like today, so setting the monitor levels would have been a lot more venue dependent as well. So did the sound guys have some baseline presets from the rehearsals and then adjusted the sound to the venue during the first songs of the set?
Post by: Chris W on January 07, 2024, 04:21:26 PM
We probably did more soundchecks on the first UK/Europe leg. Most other shows we were flying in during the afternoon, so no one wanted to fly earlier to do a soundcheck then hang around an empty venue for three hours before the show.
From memory we barely did a soundcheck once we transitioned to the open air stadiums (European spring and summer), with the exception of Paris, Nimes and Rotterdam where we sound checked extensively for the benefit of the live album and film sound crew.
Post by: hunter v2.0 on January 07, 2024, 04:26:31 PM
Post by: Matchstickman on January 07, 2024, 04:45:28 PM
I agree and disagree.
Paul was one of the best things about the show (for me). He wasn't 'country', he could solo in any genre as well as anyone on stage, he could play Be-Bop jazz on pedal steel. I think Mark had him there because he was an outstanding musician he respected, also because it would be hard to play some of the OES tracks without him (You and Your Friend). Paul's solo on Walk Of Life was always a highlight for me.
I don't think Phil brought anything other than solid rhythm guitar.
Much as I loved Danny - nice guy, amazing player - I don't think you needed percussion on every song, nor someone doubling up on cymbal crashes, tom fills etc.
I totally agree with you though, it would have been amazing to have the smallest unit playing on some songs, and only add players where they were needed. Instead, it WAS a wall of sound, with all nine people playing on every song (except the first half of Sultans).
Yes, it would probably have benefitted some songs to have a smaller line-up. The pedal steel solo on BIA, the flute intro on Private Investigations, etc., seemed somewhat unnecessary and distracting, though technically played well. These additions also made so many songs 8+ minutes.
You are right that Paul could solo in a variety of genres (Fade to Black, etc.), but the overall feel of the pedal steel would lean in a certain direction. Compare Clapton's solo in Walk of Life (Mandela gig) to Paul's, for instance. Eric's was more rock 'n' roll, which is probably what most DS fans would prefer. But to each their own.
Post by: Matchstickman on January 07, 2024, 04:48:26 PM
We were either in arenas or outdoor venues. It was our own stage, our own PA and monitors. So the band set up was identical from show to show, the only thing that changed was the room size, which can impact the onstage sound I agree.
We probably did more soundchecks on the first UK/Europe leg. Most other shows we were flying in during the afternoon, so no one wanted to fly earlier to do a soundcheck then hang around an empty venue for three hours before the show.
From memory we barely did a soundcheck once we transitioned to the open air stadiums (European spring and summer), with the exception of Paris, Nimes and Rotterdam where we sound checked extensively for the benefit of the live album and film sound crew.
Again, thanks for all this info Chris. I'm sure all of the long-time fans appreciate this greatly. :clap
Post by: Love Expresso on January 12, 2024, 10:59:52 PM
I also got the box for Christmas and I’m working my way through it.
I’ve got Rainbow on now. It’s worth the price of admission alone.
I got the CDs and they sound beautiful. I’ve read reports about issues with the Alchemy vinyl quality.
I could have bet that you would have chosen the vinyl edition. Could you tell me more about the quality issue with the alchemy records? Praises are pretty high over all about the vinyl quality.
LE
I was put off by some noisy vinyl on the solo box to be honest.
Multiple complaints in the Discogs comments
https://www.discogs.com/master/3295336-Dire-Straits-Live-1978-1992
And some people reporting the same thing on Hoffman
New Dire Straits Live Box Set, 3rd November 2023 (http://"https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/new-dire-straits-live-box-set-3rd-november-2023.1184141/page-25#post-33552583")
I do love records but ultimately it doesn’t make sense to me to pay £200 for a potentially flawed product when I can get perfection for a quarter of the price.
Thanks for directing me to these reports. Interesting that they are so different as some people totally praise the quality as our member Darling Pretty did. I will have to sleep over the decision.
LE
Seems there is some inconsistency. I guess if you buy from Amazon it your can replace without much hassle but the CDs sound perfect to me so I’m happy with them.
So this morning the Vinyl Live Box arrived. Thanks to Dusty for the links so I was able to collect all the different complaints and flaws about the pressing. It went from hiss and distortion throughout OTN over non-fills in Private Investigatons and Solid Rock to a damaged Lions from BBC and other things people found, including a vocal sound from MK as if the stylus was full of dust... Well, I checked all albums now since the afternoon and really had a great time. I am happy to report that all 12 records from my Box sound flawless and perfectly well. They play without any noise or scratches and are an absolute joy to listen to.
So maybe I am just glad or some people should check their systems and clean the records first. It IS an expensive Set but it is worth every penny.
Sorry to bring it up again but as I had started with questions about it I felt I had to close the case of flawed records. At least there seems to be a big chance to get lucky and fetch a flawless Box.
About the music itself I only might make a remark about that I agree that Industrial Disease sounds pretty awful and maybe that was the reason to leave it off the album from the beginning.
LE
Post by: dustyvalentino on January 13, 2024, 01:27:27 AM
Post by: Banjo99uk on January 13, 2024, 03:03:09 AM
I’ve always wondered why a rock band needs percussion, and so many musicians on stage. The Knebworth 90 concert has so many people on stage at the end I reckon my 11 year old son could have played on stage and got away with it. Seems to be more Ego than musicality.Bringing Paul Franklin along for the tour, as good a player as he is, has always been somewhat puzzling. He did not seem a logical choice for DS. It seemed that Mark wanted to listen to his pedal steel, and perhaps jam a bit with him, but that country vibe felt a bit off.
This also created the issue of having (too?) many players on stage, all of whom needing something to do (a sax player playing tambourine, etc.). Listening to Telegraph Road, one is struck by the number of different instruments used for soloing, and it's hard not to think that "that used to be a distorted guitar".
I agree and disagree.
Paul was one of the best things about the show (for me). He wasn't 'country', he could solo in any genre as well as anyone on stage, he could play Be-Bop jazz on pedal steel. I think Mark had him there because he was an outstanding musician he respected, also because it would be hard to play some of the OES tracks without him (You and Your Friend). Paul's solo on Walk Of Life was always a highlight for me.
I don't think Phil brought anything other than solid rhythm guitar.
Much as I loved Danny - nice guy, amazing player - I don't think you needed percussion on every song, nor someone doubling up on cymbal crashes, tom fills etc.
I totally agree with you though, it would have been amazing to have the smallest unit playing on some songs, and only add players where they were needed. Instead, it WAS a wall of sound, with all nine people playing on every song (except the first half of Sultans).
Post by: hunter v2.0 on January 13, 2024, 10:19:14 AM
I’ve always wondered why a rock band needs percussion, and so many musicians on stage.
To be able to reproduce complex music on the albums live? :think It's not uncommon for bands to use additional musicians and singers hidden behind the stage, so I think it's cool that Mark and DS wanted to have them all on stage.
Post by: Chris W on January 13, 2024, 11:03:14 AM
I’ve always wondered why a rock band needs percussion, and so many musicians on stage. The Knebworth 90 concert has so many people on stage at the end I reckon my 11 year old son could have played on stage and got away with it. Seems to be more Ego than musicality.
Because studios now have limitless tracks available, so guitars are triple tracked, bands hire backing singers, percussion is added.
Knebworth was a charity event, with dozens of musicians donating their time for free. You end up with massed musicians on stage at the end because it's fun, camaraderie, not because they are needed.
I actually thought Chris (sax), Danny (perc) and Paul (pedal steel) were the best thing about the OES tour, but yeah, I think it would have been better if they weren't all playing all of the time. Light and shade.
Post by: dustyvalentino on January 13, 2024, 11:59:54 AM
Post by: ds1984 on January 14, 2024, 10:57:26 AM
I actually thought Chris (sax), Danny (perc) and Paul (pedal steel) were the best thing about the OES tour, but yeah, I think it would have been better if they weren't all playing all of the time. Light and shade.
I could not agree more.
And Mark from 2010 onward has ended doing the same mistake with his own solo band.
Post by: Matchstickman on January 14, 2024, 03:37:21 PM
Post by: NicoMK on January 14, 2024, 09:48:51 PM
From memory we barely did a soundcheck once we transitioned to the open air stadiums (European spring and summer), with the exception of Paris, Nimes and Rotterdam where we sound checked extensively for the benefit of the live album and film sound crew.Interesting, since I've always felt that official live recordings (not only DS or MK but any other artists) are always better played than an "average" concert. I don't want to go into the previously debated "overdubs" thing again, but do pro musicians pay a special attention to smaller details when the band is recorded for a live album? I mean, better focus, better solos, better energy, more smiles (if being filmed...) etc., which overall gives a "better show"? Thanks @ChrisW
Post by: Chris W on January 15, 2024, 09:34:11 AM
Official live releases are recorded over more than one show generally. So the best version of each song from any show is chosen.
Second, overdubs are done. Also, audio can be moved, retuned.
On a major tour you tend to lose yourself in the long shows, so I don't think you play any differently, maybe slightly fewer risks?
Post by: Knut on January 16, 2024, 04:01:57 AM
Not all shows were taped (or are known to have been taped, anyway) from the audience, and apart from a different version done during the first couple of shows in 1991 it does not seem to appear until May '92.
Post by: Jimbo on February 23, 2024, 04:47:12 PM
I think two things.Great Chris Whitten.
Official live releases are recorded over more than one show generally. So the best version of each song from any show is chosen.
Second, overdubs are done. Also, audio can be moved, retuned.
On a major tour you tend to lose yourself in the long shows, so I don't think you play any differently, maybe slightly fewer risks?
Just yesterday I saw a live show in Nimes from 1992 where the drums played for many minutes.
Nice shots, it's the tour I had seen in three dates (Munich and 2 in Milan).
One of DS's fortunes was having 3 substantially different drummers (Pick's jazz-swing, Terry's r&r and Chris's groove).
Post by: dustyvalentino on March 11, 2024, 07:25:59 PM
The vocals on the “new” tracks on OTN sound different to the “old” ones, adding credence to my long held suspicion that MK re-recorded his vocals for the original album.
Post by: Love Expresso on March 11, 2024, 08:26:57 PM
LE
Post by: the visitor on March 11, 2024, 08:34:09 PM
Post by: Matchstickman on March 11, 2024, 08:36:57 PM
For re-recorded singing, please suggest any instance where vocals and video do not match.
Post by: Rolo on March 11, 2024, 09:38:11 PM
I don't know if we talked about this on this forum...
However, are we talking about re-recording parts on a live album?
intriguing
(contain traces of irony)
#fun #justkidding
Post by: dustyvalentino on March 11, 2024, 09:42:19 PM
I know what you mean but I think the vocals are just processed differently on the original OTN
Could well be. The original vocals certainly sound processed compared to the new tracks.
Post by: Matchstickman on March 11, 2024, 10:36:05 PM
i vaguely remember...
I don't know if we talked about this on this forum...
However, are we talking about re-recording parts on a live album?
intriguing
(contain traces of irony)
#fun #justkidding
;D ;D
Post by: Chris W on March 12, 2024, 12:21:57 PM
Finally working my way through the box.
The vocals on the “new” tracks on OTN sound different to the “old” ones, adding credence to my long held suspicion that MK re-recorded his vocals for the original album.
But they would use any new vocals on the remaster..,,,wouldn't they.
The drums on OTN were quite heavy processed, probably with samples added, as that was typical of any record made in that era.
The basic sound and the playing are me however.
Post by: Matchstickman on March 13, 2024, 09:06:18 PM
The drums on OTN were quite heavy processed, probably with samples added, as that was typical of any record made in that era.
The basic sound and the playing are me however.
The drums seem to be mixed more up front and pack more of a punch sound-wise in songs like Heavy Fuel and Money for Nothing, when compared to, say, Tunnel of Love.
What does "samples" mean on already existing drum tracks, Chris?
Post by: Peter1981 on March 14, 2024, 12:11:19 AM
If in mixing you find a snare drum sounds too light, you can add a sample of a fat sounding snare drum on every snare hit; it suddenly feels fatter overall.
The drums on OTN were quite heavy processed, probably with samples added, as that was typical of any record made in that era.
The basic sound and the playing are me however.
The drums seem to be mixed more up front and pack more of a punch sound-wise in songs like Heavy Fuel and Money for Nothing, when compared to, say, Tunnel of Love.
What does "samples" mean on already existing drum tracks, Chris?
Post by: Chris W on March 15, 2024, 09:20:43 AM
Replacing recorded drums with samples sounds horrible, but you can 'improve' drum sounds, especially from a old live show, but mixing in cleaner, nicer sounding samples behind the recorded drums.
In the 80's and 90's this was happening a lot, so I just assume Neil Dorfsman mixed samples behind my drums for the On The Night album.
You can hear the unaltered sound of my drums on the Basel show video.
Post by: dustyvalentino on March 15, 2024, 10:42:40 AM
As above......good answer.
Replacing recorded drums with samples sounds horrible, but you can 'improve' drum sounds, especially from a old live show, but mixing in cleaner, nicer sounding samples behind the recorded drums.
In the 80's and 90's this was happening a lot, so I just assume Neil Dorfsman mixed samples behind my drums for the On The Night album.
You can hear the unaltered sound of my drums on the Basel show video.
Honestly, On The Night gets worse and worse!
That said the "new" 2023 tracks sounded pretty good, presumably because they didn't have the budget or inclination for all this fakery.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/d3/60/1e/d3601e6c4251bcbc6fe3ddb1c8053a67.jpg)
Post by: Banjo99uk on March 15, 2024, 12:54:00 PM
Thats why I always preferred the Radio 1 Woburn Abbey broadcast. It helps that I was there, but it sounds live. I remember when OTN was released and the difference was stark, especially MKs vocals.As above......good answer.
Replacing recorded drums with samples sounds horrible, but you can 'improve' drum sounds, especially from a old live show, but mixing in cleaner, nicer sounding samples behind the recorded drums.
In the 80's and 90's this was happening a lot, so I just assume Neil Dorfsman mixed samples behind my drums for the On The Night album.
You can hear the unaltered sound of my drums on the Basel show video.
Honestly, On The Night gets worse and worse!
That said the "new" 2023 tracks sounded pretty good, presumably because they didn't have the budget or inclination for all this fakery.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/d3/60/1e/d3601e6c4251bcbc6fe3ddb1c8053a67.jpg)
Post by: Chris W on March 15, 2024, 01:16:56 PM
Post by: dustyvalentino on March 15, 2024, 02:23:01 PM
Ugh, it isn't worse or 'fakery'. It's just like EQ and compression.
Replacing the drums on a "live" recording isn't fakery?
Post by: Rolo on March 15, 2024, 02:28:46 PM
MK and Co NEVER looks back.
They would never made such things.
#fun #justkidding #iloveyouchris ;D
Post by: Chris W on March 15, 2024, 02:59:28 PM
Replacing the drums on a "live" recording isn't fakery?
Because you didn't read my post. The drums were not, NEVER were replaced. Samples were mixed in below the level of my real drums.
I'm not even sure they were, but I would not be surprised.
Once you put a microphone on an instrument you are changing the sound. You can eq and congress the drums, you can also mix in a fatter, more refined sample instead of just EQ'ing it.
It's still me playing, it's still at least 50% my sound.
Post by: dustyvalentino on March 15, 2024, 03:02:59 PM
Replacing the drums on a "live" recording isn't fakery?
Because you didn't read my post. The drums were not, NEVER were replaced. Samples were mixed in below the level of my real drums.
I'm not even sure they were, but I would not be surprised.
Once you put a microphone on an instrument you are changing the sound. You can eq and congress the drums, you can also mix in a fatter, more refined sample instead of just EQ'ing it.
It's still me playing, it's still at least 50% my sound.
Thank you for the clarification.
I'd still rather just hear your actual drums though. Mixing in a sample is fakery to me but we can agree to disagree. :)
Post by: dustyvalentino on March 15, 2024, 03:03:57 PM
Post by: Chris W on March 15, 2024, 04:28:41 PM
I spoke with him for over two hours just before Christmas. He was full of beans, talking about future projects, asking me to drop in and see him some time.
I always thought he would be there as long as I was alive. But now he's gone, which reminds you of the fragility of life.
Post by: hunter v2.0 on March 15, 2024, 04:49:39 PM
Replacing the drums on a "live" recording isn't fakery?
Because you didn't read my post. The drums were not, NEVER were replaced. Samples were mixed in below the level of my real drums.
I'm not even sure they were, but I would not be surprised.
Once you put a microphone on an instrument you are changing the sound. You can eq and congress the drums, you can also mix in a fatter, more refined sample instead of just EQ'ing it.
It's still me playing, it's still at least 50% my sound.
Thank you for the clarification.
I'd still rather just hear your actual drums though. Mixing in a sample is fakery to me but we can agree to disagree. :)
But is it more fake than adding chorus to a guitar signal? Or using an octave pedal? Or stacking overdrives? Or - using digital modellers? :)
Post by: dustyvalentino on March 15, 2024, 04:51:33 PM
Replacing the drums on a "live" recording isn't fakery?
Because you didn't read my post. The drums were not, NEVER were replaced. Samples were mixed in below the level of my real drums.
I'm not even sure they were, but I would not be surprised.
Once you put a microphone on an instrument you are changing the sound. You can eq and congress the drums, you can also mix in a fatter, more refined sample instead of just EQ'ing it.
It's still me playing, it's still at least 50% my sound.
Thank you for the clarification.
I'd still rather just hear your actual drums though. Mixing in a sample is fakery to me but we can agree to disagree. :)
But is it more fake than adding chorus to a guitar signal? Or using an octave pedal? Or stacking overdrives? Or - using digital modellers? :)
To me it is - in all those instances the musician is still playing the instrument.
Post by: Chris W on March 15, 2024, 05:28:15 PM
The playing sounds exactly the same with or without samples, the sample is just like adding some great EQ
Post by: Chris W on March 15, 2024, 05:33:32 PM
https://youtu.be/XwDxJS7MfAY?si=9rq7g8DIj4c1oK9Q
Post by: dustyvalentino on March 15, 2024, 05:41:47 PM
I'd prefer to hear just your drums, as per the Basel bootleg for example.
Post by: Chris W on March 15, 2024, 06:50:08 PM
To me it is - in all those instances the musician is still playing the instrument.
Noooooo.
I'm neither taking it personally or as a criticism. You clearly posted that it was fakery and heavily implied (above) that I wasn't playing the instrument.
Compared to the mix on On The night, 'in all those instances' of guitar pedals etc, the 'musician is still paying the instrument'.
So in the case of the On The Night album I'm still playing the instrument and the audio on the record is me still playing the instrument.
Just trying to get the facts straight here.
Post by: dustyvalentino on March 15, 2024, 08:31:16 PM
To me it is - in all those instances the musician is still playing the instrument.
Noooooo.
I'm neither taking it personally or as a criticism. You clearly posted that it was fakery and heavily implied (above) that I wasn't playing the instrument.
Compared to the mix on On The night, 'in all those instances' of guitar pedals etc, the 'musician is still paying the instrument'.
So in the case of the On The Night album I'm still playing the instrument and the audio on the record is me still playing the instrument.
Just trying to get the facts straight here.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that at all.
But mixing fake drums in with your real drums is still fakery to me.
Post by: quizzaciously on March 15, 2024, 09:05:09 PM
To me it is - in all those instances the musician is still playing the instrument.
Noooooo.
I'm neither taking it personally or as a criticism. You clearly posted that it was fakery and heavily implied (above) that I wasn't playing the instrument.
Compared to the mix on On The night, 'in all those instances' of guitar pedals etc, the 'musician is still paying the instrument'.
So in the case of the On The Night album I'm still playing the instrument and the audio on the record is me still playing the instrument.
Just trying to get the facts straight here.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that at all.
But mixing fake drums in with your real drums is still fakery to me.
I had a professor in university who refused to listen to recorded music because "we don't listen to music with our ears pointed at sound sources like microphones". The guy only visited unplugged classic music performances. I'm dead serious.
To somebody like him all recorded music is fakery ;D I mean fakery in music is a big subject, in this case I think it's more or less a little enhancement of a live sound. They didn't have a week to move microphones Guy Fletcher style, you see! :lol
Post by: Peter1981 on March 16, 2024, 02:10:14 AM
I am a producer and mixer and especially with live recordings this happens all the time. I do it all the time. Mostly just because there’s to much bleed from other instruments and the snare sample sounds dry, so you can make the overall mix less ambient. Turn the overheads down in the process as well.
I have to say, listening to Ahead of the game, it sounds to me there’s also a snare sample added there. I’m pretty sure I’m hearing a slightly different sounding snare in the overhead mics than the close snare sounds.
Sound good though, so who cares?
For what it’s worth, On the night sounds great as well. Slick, not pure; true. But it does spark a certain special emotion. To me, at least. So all good in my book. Triggered samples or not, whatever!
On the subject; I grew up with that record, so thanks you Chris W!
To me it is - in all those instances the musician is still playing the instrument.
Noooooo.
I'm neither taking it personally or as a criticism. You clearly posted that it was fakery and heavily implied (above) that I wasn't playing the instrument.
Compared to the mix on On The night, 'in all those instances' of guitar pedals etc, the 'musician is still paying the instrument'.
So in the case of the On The Night album I'm still playing the instrument and the audio on the record is me still playing the instrument.
Just trying to get the facts straight here.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that at all.
But mixing fake drums in with your real drums is still fakery to me.
Post by: Banjo99uk on March 16, 2024, 02:45:54 AM
My Dad used to tell me that if a singer used a microphone he couldn’t sing properly. Horses for courses. He also said if you couldn’t whistle the melody it wasn’t a song. Very old school, needless to say he thought MK was utter shite.
To me it is - in all those instances the musician is still playing the instrument.
Noooooo.
I'm neither taking it personally or as a criticism. You clearly posted that it was fakery and heavily implied (above) that I wasn't playing the instrument.
Compared to the mix on On The night, 'in all those instances' of guitar pedals etc, the 'musician is still paying the instrument'.
So in the case of the On The Night album I'm still playing the instrument and the audio on the record is me still playing the instrument.
Just trying to get the facts straight here.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that at all.
But mixing fake drums in with your real drums is still fakery to me.
I had a professor in university who refused to listen to recorded music because "we don't listen to music with our ears pointed at sound sources like microphones". The guy only visited unplugged classic music performances. I'm dead serious.
To somebody like him all recorded music is fakery ;D I mean fakery in music is a big subject, in this case I think it's more or less a little enhancement of a live sound. They didn't have a week to move microphones Guy Fletcher style, you see! :lol
Post by: dustyvalentino on March 16, 2024, 08:43:29 AM
My Dad used to tell me that if a singer used a microphone he couldn’t sing properly. Horses for courses. He also said if you couldn’t whistle the melody it wasn’t a song. Very old school, needless to say he thought MK was utter shite.
To me it is - in all those instances the musician is still playing the instrument.
Noooooo.
I'm neither taking it personally or as a criticism. You clearly posted that it was fakery and heavily implied (above) that I wasn't playing the instrument.
Compared to the mix on On The night, 'in all those instances' of guitar pedals etc, the 'musician is still paying the instrument'.
So in the case of the On The Night album I'm still playing the instrument and the audio on the record is me still playing the instrument.
Just trying to get the facts straight here.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that at all.
But mixing fake drums in with your real drums is still fakery to me.
I had a professor in university who refused to listen to recorded music because "we don't listen to music with our ears pointed at sound sources like microphones". The guy only visited unplugged classic music performances. I'm dead serious.
To somebody like him all recorded music is fakery ;D I mean fakery in music is a big subject, in this case I think it's more or less a little enhancement of a live sound. They didn't have a week to move microphones Guy Fletcher style, you see! :lol
Lol
Post by: Chris W on March 16, 2024, 09:13:51 AM
But mixing fake drums in with your real drums is still fakery to me.
They aren't fake drums they are drum samples. You can think it's fakery if you like, but it's been standard practice on many records since the early 1980's. And the player still has to play to the best of their ability.
Post by: dustyvalentino on March 16, 2024, 09:30:47 AM
But mixing fake drums in with your real drums is still fakery to me.
They aren't fake drums they are drum samples. You can think it's fakery if you like, but it's been standard practice on many records since the early 1980's. And the player still has to play to the best of their ability.
Again, I offer no criticism of your playing which is obviously top drawer. If you have the inclination you can trawl through my posts over the last 15 years and I’m confident you won’t find anything to the contrary. What I’m saying is I would rather hear just your playing, without the samples, as per the various bootlegs and presumably the added OTN tracks.
Post by: quizzaciously on March 16, 2024, 11:14:22 AM
My Dad used to tell me that if a singer used a microphone he couldn’t sing properly. Horses for courses. He also said if you couldn’t whistle the melody it wasn’t a song. Very old school, needless to say he thought MK was utter shite.
To me it is - in all those instances the musician is still playing the instrument.
Noooooo.
I'm neither taking it personally or as a criticism. You clearly posted that it was fakery and heavily implied (above) that I wasn't playing the instrument.
Compared to the mix on On The night, 'in all those instances' of guitar pedals etc, the 'musician is still paying the instrument'.
So in the case of the On The Night album I'm still playing the instrument and the audio on the record is me still playing the instrument.
Just trying to get the facts straight here.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that at all.
But mixing fake drums in with your real drums is still fakery to me.
I had a professor in university who refused to listen to recorded music because "we don't listen to music with our ears pointed at sound sources like microphones". The guy only visited unplugged classic music performances. I'm dead serious.
To somebody like him all recorded music is fakery ;D I mean fakery in music is a big subject, in this case I think it's more or less a little enhancement of a live sound. They didn't have a week to move microphones Guy Fletcher style, you see! :lol
Lol
Jokes aside, I agree with Banjo99uk's Dad, especially in whistling the melody department. I'm very old school and seem to have been born in the wrong country and at the wrong time, and I'm constantly going around whistling old show tunes, jazz standards and arias from operas. As you can guess, rarely when I do whistle Mark's songs as they are extremely economical with great melodies, so nothing in these words I find wrong. Even Mark himself admitted he's not a good melody writer.
Post by: Matchstickman on March 16, 2024, 05:17:34 PM
Did Guy deliberately tone them down?
Post by: jbaent on March 16, 2024, 05:53:59 PM
What I don't understand from all of this, is why the drums sound thinner on the new box tracks than on the Basel TV recording :think
Did Guy deliberately tone them down?
From what I understand, they just mixed the new tracks, and the old ones from the OTN release were very processed at the time.
I prefer the new ones, for me they are closest to the real thing.
Post by: olazabalrok on March 17, 2024, 01:07:57 AM
Guy claims that the new mixes were mixed to sound close to same as the originals which is absolutely not the case. Again my opinion is the new mixes are simply hideous and I haven’t really listened them again because they are not pleasing to listen. All the energy is lost and they sound as depressive as the tour overall seems to have been. Nothing like the punch in the On The Night or Encores mix.
At the time DS was still trying to be somewhat a rock act and they should’ve got someone to mix the new tracks that knows how to do rock.
Post by: Matchstickman on March 17, 2024, 05:29:06 PM
Just go back about 90 pages of this thread and the new mixes are criticized by me and couple of others from the first moments of ITILYTM. Just seems there maybe wasn’t enough time to finish the mixes and they shouldn’t have been mixed by Guy in the first place.
Guy claims that the new mixes were mixed to sound close to same as the originals which is absolutely not the case. Again my opinion is the new mixes are simply hideous and I haven’t really listened them again because they are not pleasing to listen. All the energy is lost and they sound as depressive as the tour overall seems to have been. Nothing like the punch in the On The Night or Encores mix.
At the time DS was still trying to be somewhat a rock act and they should’ve got someone to mix the new tracks that knows how to do rock.
What makes you think we have not read those pages? ;D
I have expressed the same sentiment, that the mixes sound weak for a rock band, and that is my main issue with TOL. My feeling is that ITIlYTM works better soundwise, though. In that song, the guitars are up front and "in your face", as they should be.
Post by: dustyvalentino on March 17, 2024, 06:15:29 PM
Post by: herlock on March 17, 2024, 06:20:57 PM
I thought TOL was fantastic on the new box.Me too.
Great performance and great sound...
Post by: Matchstickman on March 17, 2024, 06:37:10 PM
Post by: Mossguitar on March 17, 2024, 07:16:57 PM
I thought TOL was fantastic on the new box.Yes, me too
Post by: Dutchessy on March 19, 2024, 09:10:46 AM
Post by: afonso on April 09, 2024, 11:46:44 PM
Noonday Underground "Go It Alone": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRcn2DAvXKg
Post by: milicz on May 14, 2024, 03:10:04 PM