On The Night - Ridiculously Bad???

[Rolo]

This all reminds me of a client I had in the studio years ago. Heavy metal band. Live recording at a local venue. When they weren't satisfied with their performance they wanted to use Drumagog to replace every drum hit from a 3 plus hour gig. Of course I told them where the nearest exit door was...

This brings us nicely on to the use of technology. I'm actually quite uncomfortable with what can be done in your average DAW now. I was one of those guys, a purist I suppose, who despised certain uses technology up to a point. Then drum machines evolved to the point where you can't tell it apart from the real deal, synthesis now gives us the perfect piano sound, brass is now perfectly imitated (Much to the disappointment of some on here  ), you don't even need to sing in tune anymore (Isn't melodyne brilliant!).

And of course the next step, A.I. Myself and a student recently had great fun creating a rap and using Snoop Dogg and Eminem as the main voices! But where does all this end? I can see a situation where in less than 10 years time we will see music released by AI mimicking your favorite dead artist.

Thoughts.....?

It was your job. Not mine.
I really don't care about bands doing overbubs.

I'm saying that overdub is part of the business.
It's common by the way.

If you doesn't like to do overdubs on a live record, that's fine.
You are a purist? Yes.

The musicians that played on DS (MK included) are not The Gods from Olympus that fights against the Music Business and dont ever make overdubs, come on. Come on, its fine do some overdubs.

Kiss fake album, Frampton Comes Alive, Queen Almost Live... its part of the product.
Some of these works has push the overdubs far beyond the limit? Yes. People make fun of it? Yes.

MK and Cia made overbus? Yes
Mark needed to correct his voice on a couple of songs? Yes (ask Guy)
MK looks back? Yes

Pink Floyd's Pulse has a mix from, maybe what? 40 nights?
Is on the booklet the venue of each song.
Gimour and Cia made some overdubs? Very likely.

I really think that, if DS has recorded from 20 shows for the OTN, on the booklet should be something like Pink Floyd's Pulse. Much more honest.

The great Oz Noy, a fantastic player, said: "I made about 4 solos per music. After that i mix the very best parts to put on the record."

There is no problem with that. At All.

[Rolo]

A thought...

When the automobile was invented, there was people that claimed that that invention will never replace the horse.
People took this invention the the limit. What is a popular car compared to a Benz model?

People are pushing the technology to the limit, and i can tell you, the "limit" is So Far Away from us.

Cannot wait to listen a new Sinatra album with Miles Davis on trumpet completely made by A.I. It's only technology going to the limits.

[2manyguitars]

Rolo, Is it to much to expect an artist to be able to actually play live these days? if it says live it should be so. Simple.

Do you want horsemeat when the packet says bacon?

Overdubs on a large scale would be ok as long as said release had the proper disclaimers on it and said artist wasn't trying to pretend to be something else.

Sorry but I pity your future taste in music but if thats what the masses want then thats what they'll get, but tell me where is the heart, the soul in anything that is automatically generated in nano seconds inside a computer?

I can't think of anything further away from a true artistic vision.....

[jbaent]

Rolo, Is it to much to expect an artist to be able to actually play live these days? if it says live it should be so. Simple.

Do you want horsemeat when the packet says bacon?

Overdubs on a large scale would be ok as long as said release had the proper disclaimers on it and said artist wasn't trying to pretend to be something else.

Sorry but I pity your future taste in music but if thats what the masses want then thats what they'll get, but tell me where is the heart, the soul in anything that is automatically generated in nano seconds inside a computer?

I can't think of anything further away from a true artistic vision.....

Agree.

I prefer a live record with mistakes than a one heavily edited or with overdubs.

[quizzaciously]

Rolo, Is it to much to expect an artist to be able to actually play live these days? if it says live it should be so. Simple.

Do you want horsemeat when the packet says bacon?

Overdubs on a large scale would be ok as long as said release had the proper disclaimers on it and said artist wasn't trying to pretend to be something else.

Sorry but I pity your future taste in music but if thats what the masses want then thats what they'll get, but tell me where is the heart, the soul in anything that is automatically generated in nano seconds inside a computer?

I can't think of anything further away from a true artistic vision.....

Agree.

I prefer a live record with mistakes than a one heavily edited or with overdubs.

Not all mistakes are created equal. Mark's playing has tiny little microscopic mistakes still intact on final versions of live albums, which makes it 1) more alive and 2) impossible to recreate, even by the artist himself. I love mistakes for the latter... It adds a whole layer of mystique and uniqueness, a charm if you like.

I won't glorify live music so much though. Playing a musical instrument is just muscle memory, and recording music is just sound waves, everything else is made up by our brains. I bet no one can distinguish between overdubs and a piece of music played completely live, assuming the sound is close enough.

My favourite example is how you can grow plants by merely recreating the sunlight using multiple lamps and some heat, and voila — you replaced the sun. Because, after all, it's just electromagnetic radiation and waves of known wavelengths.

[JF]

I can assure you that all videos made on jams where I played don't have any overdubbs, it's all 100% live 

https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/jams/

[JF]

The great Oz Noy, a fantastic player, said: "I made about 4 solos per music. After that i mix the very best parts to put on the record."

Gilmour does that for all his solos in studio

[JF]

Remembering that Mark Knopfler is the producer of the tracks "Portobello Belle-Live" and "Where do you think You're Going" present in the aforementioned 1988 MFN collection, this information appears in the album credits.

yes indeed. Mark said in an interview that he was involved a lot in the MFN comp production.
He also worked on the TBTP and TR remix (the 1988 one, not the later one  )

[JF]

the funny thing is that I planned to write a chronicle about OTN for the anniversary of its release on May 10th, and with this thread (thanks Dusty  ) I have a lot of information and many things to talk about 

[dmg]

Rolo, Is it to much to expect an artist to be able to actually play live these days? if it says live it should be so. Simple.

Do you want horsemeat when the packet says bacon?

Overdubs on a large scale would be ok as long as said release had the proper disclaimers on it and said artist wasn't trying to pretend to be something else.

Sorry but I pity your future taste in music but if thats what the masses want then thats what they'll get, but tell me where is the heart, the soul in anything that is automatically generated in nano seconds inside a computer?

I can't think of anything further away from a true artistic vision.....

Agree.

I prefer a live record with mistakes than a one heavily edited or with overdubs.

Maybe, but would you want it released for all posterity as an example of your final tour? 

With recording four nights I reckon they could find songs without any mistakes tbh.  Back then they were playing well with barely a mistake per show, however it's a matter of how he wanted to play it rather than making mistakes.  He likely thought he never nailed that solo rather than made a mistake I reckon. 

Now a 2019 tour show would take about a decade to edit with clips from every show! 

[Rolo]

Rolo, Is it to much to expect an artist to be able to actually play live these days? if it says live it should be so. Simple.

Do you want horsemeat when the packet says bacon?

Overdubs on a large scale would be ok as long as said release had the proper disclaimers on it and said artist wasn't trying to pretend to be something else.

Sorry but I pity your future taste in music but if thats what the masses want then thats what they'll get, but tell me where is the heart, the soul in anything that is automatically generated in nano seconds inside a computer?

I can't think of anything further away from a true artistic vision.....

For God's sake, guys.

Seriously that we gonna speak about personal tastes now?

I said that overdubs on live records are absolutely normal.
I care about it? No.
I like fake live albuns? No
Again, overdubbing part of the business? Yes

I never said that MK made and overbub on an entire song on OTN.
I said that: Maybe because of the original sound source or another thing that made the mixing process really hard to work, maybe  some of the guys had to do some (again, some) overdub.

I pointed some arguments that Frampton himself sayng that has overbubs on Frampton Comes Alive. Not because he wanted. But because it was necessary.

Brunno pointed some issues that almost proves that has some overbubs on OTN. Maybe the band recorded 10 instead 4 nights and some parts are from these 6 nights unmentioned at the booklet? I doubt it.

Chris, when i said about AI albuns, i am talking only about people taking technology to the limit. But when it comes to music, seems to me that its forbidden.

I listen to AI music? No.
I care about it? No.
It doen't affect my taste, my work or the artists that i listen.
I relly love to play live and make mistakes, take risks.
It's part of me and i'm sure you have the same passion about it.

But really, if Knopfler, Gilmour, Clapton, Schoffield, Vai, Morser, Robben made overbus, i don't care.

Now, all this started because some of us cannot believe that MK, not tha band, only MK cannot do overbuds on a live record in any circustances.

[2manyguitars]

"But really, if Knopfler, Gilmour, Clapton, Schoffield, Vai, Morser, Robben made overbus, i don't care."

Thats where you and I differ. But as I stated earlier it depends what you're overdubbing and to what extent.

[JF]

Just a tought : we are talking about the eighties right ? (and yes about mid seventies with Frampton)

but please, dont reveal to me that legendary live albums such as Woodstock, Wight, Live/Dead, ABB Filmore east, BBA in Japan, Purple in Japan, Get yer ya-ya's out, Monterey, Band of gypsys, concert for Bangladesh, Joplin in concert, Doors absolutely live, rock'n'roll animal, EC was here, Who live at Leeds, and so on... contains overdubs ?....

I am aware that the Last waltz has a lot of editing, and of course Woodstock too, but that's not the same thing

[quizzaciously]

Just a tought : we are talking about the eighties right ? (and yes about mid seventies with Frampton)

but please, dont reveal to me that legendary live albums such as Woodstock, Wight, Live/Dead, ABB Filmore east, BBA in Japan, Purple in Japan, Get yer ya-ya's out, Monterey, Band of gypsys, concert for Bangladesh, Joplin in concert, Doors absolutely live, rock'n'roll animal, EC was here, Who live at Leeds, and so on... contains overdubs ?....

I am aware that the Last waltz has a lot of editing, and of course Woodstock too, but that's not the same thing

I'd say never believe ANYTHING that's recorded on any media whatsoever... Who knows what they did to any of these fine live albums?

Fun fact: I believe in this video people start clapping and cheering at the 2-minute mark not because Sade pulls her jacket off, but because for the first half of the song her microphone or monitors simply won't work and the audience won't hear anything up to this point in the performance. Better to leave it "as is", or fix it in the post?

[ds1984]

Well the debate has different scope.

Is OTN only a composite of several LIVE edited recordings or are there studio ovberdubs ?

I still have doubts about studio overdubs because I hav eno definitive proof it has been done like that.
I can't say where MK himself  at the time was putting the red line.

But I can think that hewas still ready to do some compromise : leave the little errors but would he be ready to let a big mistake on a record ?
We fan are ready to get big mistake an,d make fun of but for a record that you will selle to several thousand and even million copies, that is should represent a tour souvenir for people I have good faith that MK himself would naturally agree to fix it. Plus the management, plus the record company.

We experienced it ourself for the official MP3 from MK solo tours, the nights were serious problem occured the song was replaced with one form other nights.

So the question remains for the audio live fix only or not?

When tlaking about Marks integrity I admit I would be surprised to learn that most/full of YLT guitar solo was rerecorded in studio. I mean, and I reckon I can be wrong, that is not a thing Mark would go so far without thinking he crosses the line. That the second part of the debate, the lack of video recording.

In a perferct world a live album issued on video would be one nite only.
In a less perfect a composite of several videoed night.
In an imperfect world, feturing audio that were not recorded the same night as the images.
In a business ruled world featuring video and audio overdubbed in studio filming and recording.

If you have seen Paul Mc Cartney Paul Is Live – The New World Tour released in  1994 the video show actual image of the composite filmed nights and I found it unwatchable.
I just can't stand to see Paul wearing 3 very differents shirts durint a single song...
I think as a spectator I need to get at least on a song a single night video.
This the reason why I switched to the Charlotte live TV broadcast.

The Rolling Stones in 1990 had the same problem as Dire Straits filming Alchemy : close up
Because they were doing it in Imax format, the camera used were bigger and would obstructing view on stage.

So the second Turin show on July 29 was cancelled and the Rolling Stones perfomed live that night in front of a deserted stadium allowing the big video camera doing the close up...