On The Night - Ridiculously Bad???

[Brunno Nunes]

It is clear to me that if there are parts in the OTN audio that are not contained in any of the 4 shows used to assemble the OTN, I am talking about guitar licks and interpretation of MK's vocals, if they are NOT present in the available recordings of these shows used to assemble the OTN, I can only understand that they are overdubs. There are liks of guiatarra in CE that aren't in any Bootlegs, I'm sure of that, and if you analyze it more deeply, going to different songs, you can find the same thing. That "hey, alright..." at the beginning of CE was added in the studio after editing, they edited the joke they always did in the intro of MFN, as well as the drum solo at the end. Anyway, as an official record of the band's last tour, OTN left a lot to be desired, it failed to reveal the least of a real experience of a typical OES tour show, in my opinion, the same happens with Alchemy, Bootlegs have this advantage , without them our conception of the band would be limited, it is a pity that until today this has never been repaired by the band in releasing less modest and more robust material.

[ds1984]

I don't remember

1) every shows from the OES tour are  available in bootleg.
2) getting any serious source providing a complete list of which show have been recorded.

We known for Paris 1992 but I can assume there was more.
So hard to say that none of the recorded show during the OES tour have provided the fixes.
That will remains a mystery for some time to come.

But my main concern is not OTN, this is the past.
My main concern is the no absence of project by both MK and Mercury to issue an extended audio box from that tour.

[jbaent]

I don't remember

1) every shows from the OES tour are  available in bootleg.
2) getting any serious source providing a complete list of which show have been recorded.

We known for Paris 1992 but I can assume there was more.
So hard to say that none of the recorded show during the OES tour have provided the fixes.
That will remains a mystery for some time to come.

But my main concern is not OTN, this is the past.
My main concern is the no absence of project by both MK and Mercury to issue an extended audio box from that tour.

They recorded the Rotterdam and Nimes shows in May, plus the Paris ones that apparently were not used by technical issues when recording the shows.

[Brunno Nunes]

Tracks contained in the show On the Night and from which shows they were chosen to assemble this album:


1-Calling Elvis
2-Walk of life
3-Heavy fuel
4-Romeo and Juliet
5-The bug
6-Private investigations
7-Your latest trick
8-On every street
9-You and your friend
10-Money for nothing
11-Brothers in arms
12-Solid rock
13-Wild theme

Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20.05.92 [3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8]
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21.05.92 [1]
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 30.05.92 [,2,13]
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92 [9, 10, 11, 12]

Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20. 05.92
http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/200592.htm

Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21. 05.92
http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/210592.htm

Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 30.05.92
http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/300592.htm

Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92
http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/310592.htm

As you can see most of the songs are taken from the show in Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20.05.92*, six songs, then the show in Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92 with four songs.

There's the "map", just go to the recordings of these Bootlegs and compare them with the tracks on OTN, then we can see the points where there are overdubs. I did this a few years ago and I arrived at my conclusions based not on what Guy reported, but on the best sources we have, on the recordings that some lucky person recorded from the audience, a testimony, a document that reveals what actually happened, with that, only those who want to are fooled!

[Brunno Nunes]

Tracks contained in the show On the Night and from which shows they were chosen to assemble this album:


1-Calling Elvis
2-Walk of life
3-Heavy fuel
4-Romeo and Juliet
5-The bug
6-Private investigations
7-Your latest trick
8-On every street
9-You and your friend
10-Money for nothing
11-Brothers in arms
12-Solid rock
13-Wild theme

Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20.05.92 [3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8]
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21.05.92 [1]
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 30.05.92 [,2,13]
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92 [9, 10, 11, 12]

Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20. 05.92
http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/200592.htm

Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21. 05.92
http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/210592.htm

Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 30.05.92
http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/300592.htm

Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92
http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/310592.htm

As you can see most of the songs are taken from the show in Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20.05.92*, six songs, then the show in Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92 with four songs.

There's the "map", just go to the recordings of these Bootlegs and compare them with the tracks on OTN, then we can see the points where there are overdubs. I did this a few years ago and I arrived at my conclusions based not on what Guy reported, but on the best sources we have, on the recordings that some lucky person recorded from the audience, a testimony, a document that reveals what actually happened, with that, only those who want to are fooled!

Although the OTN CD insert has the information that CE was recorded in Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21.05.92, in the video it works in a different way, EC of OTN performance video is a mix of scenes from Nimes and Feyenoord Stadium. The audio is basically a tremendous edit, a lot of mixes here, a lot of audio is from Nimes FRA 21. 05.92, but a lot of other parts are a lot of unknown mixes.

The edition made for CE for OTN shortened the song a little, much of the second solo that precedes the duet of drums and percussion was taken from Nimes FRA 21.05.92, (video and audio) listening to this bootleg you can see that and more other things interesting things like: the duet of drums and percussion is different on the bootleg, some guitar passages that precede the moment of this duet were not used for the OTN version, they were simply omitted.

I made comparisons between the OTN CL with the Audio CL of Bootlegs Nimes FRA 21.05.92 and Rotterdam, Netherlands 5/31/1992, to complement my research and reach this conclusion.

I published an article where I show more details of my research, here is the link for those interested in checking it out.

http://universodirestraits.blogspot.com/2021/06/calling-elvis-on-night-performance.html?m=1

[2manyguitars]

Its an interesting analysis Bruno. I Still think given the cumbersome nature of editing these shows (no Daws in 1990!) and the actual comments from Guy that these edits are far more likely 'flown in' from other sources. Lots of those shows were recorded and just thrown in archive, plus I wouldn't mind betting that even the sound checks were recorded!

I have 2 questions for you.

Given the way OTN was spliced together can we really regard it as a genuine live album? It seems to me to be in a class of its own as I can find few bands that took this approach (Rush is the only other example I could find).

And

Given that Guy himself has clearly said no studio overdubs, what evidence would it take for you to change your opinion?

As an afterthought, at least we can agree that OTN was innovative in its approach!

[Eddie Fox]

Its an interesting analysis Bruno. I Still think given the cumbersome nature of editing these shows (no Daws in 1990!) and the actual comments from Guy that these edits are far more likely 'flown in' from other sources. Lots of those shows were recorded and just thrown in archive, plus I wouldn't mind betting that even the sound checks were recorded!

I have 2 questions for you.

Given the way OTN was spliced together can we really regard it as a genuine live album? It seems to me to be in a class of its own as I can find few bands that took this approach (Rush is the only other example I could find).

And

Given that Guy himself has clearly said no studio overdubs, what evidence would it take for you to change your opinion?

As an afterthought, at least we can agree that OTN was innovative in its approach!

Not to mention matching the tone from a big arena in a studio, which is virtually impossible - before DAWs even existed as you pointed out. Just think of the variables… Mark himself said he never managed to get that MFN exact same tone, with the same rig and in the same studio! Hard to explain that, you gotta experience that to understand.

[Brunno Nunes]

Its an interesting analysis Bruno. I still think given the cumbersome nature of editing these shows (no Daws in 1990!) and the actual comments from Guy that these edits are far more likely to 'flown in' from other sources. Lots of those shows were recorded and just thrown in archive, plus I wouldn't mind betting that even the sound checks were recorded!

I have 2 questions for you.

Given the way OTN was spliced together can we really regard it as a genuine live album? It seems to me to be in a class of its own as I can find a few bands that took this approach (Rush is the only other example I could find).

And

Given that Guy himself has clearly said no studio overdubs, what evidence would it take for you to change your opinion?

As an afterthought, at least we can agree that OTN was innovative in its approach!

Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed my review and research.

As far as edits coming from another source, we basically have most of this tour documented through dozens of Bootlegs recordings.

Answering his question, 1- I would say genuine, no, Alchemy is more genuine in that sense, OTN ends up sinning by bringing the aspects I mentioned above, especially the CE track, whose audio is almost entirely in
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21.05.92, with the duet of drums and percussion of unknown origin and the video is a true mixture of at least two different dates, in two different places, this makes it too artificial. But the biggest sin of OTN is the same sin of Alchemy, the songs that were left out, from the historical point of view it is a sacrilege, because it does not leave for posterity an experience close to a concert of that historical moment of the band, of course I am aware that this vision of mine is part of the minority of consumers.

2- The evidence that would make me change my mind about overdubs would simply be if what was present on OTN was exactly the same as the original source, ie where did that, "Hey, Alright..." at the beginning of CL come from? Where did the audio for the drum and percussion duet in CE come from? None of the recordings are mentioned as sources for creating OTN. There are still some elements in YLT that need to be further analyzed.
Yes, I agree that OTN was innovative in its approach. Which Rush show took this approach? Exit Stage Left? (I love Rush).

[2manyguitars]

Its an interesting analysis Bruno. I Still think given the cumbersome nature of editing these shows (no Daws in 1990!) and the actual comments from Guy that these edits are far more likely 'flown in' from other sources. Lots of those shows were recorded and just thrown in archive, plus I wouldn't mind betting that even the sound checks were recorded!

I have 2 questions for you.

Given the way OTN was spliced together can we really regard it as a genuine live album? It seems to me to be in a class of its own as I can find few bands that took this approach (Rush is the only other example I could find).

And

Given that Guy himself has clearly said no studio overdubs, what evidence would it take for you to change your opinion?

As an afterthought, at least we can agree that OTN was innovative in its approach!

Not to mention matching the tone from a big arena in a studio, which is virtually impossible - before DAWs even existed as you pointed out. Just think of the variables… Mark himself said he never managed to get that MFN exact same tone, with the same rig and in the same studio! Hard to explain that, you gotta experience that to understand.

Do you remember the early digital recorders Eddie? 24 character ascii display, your window into the digital world!

Makes me cringe thinking about working with those things, and also (regardless of what you think of OTN) makes Guys actual work on the project all the more commendable.

[Brunno Nunes]

I just finished an analysis where I went into other songs besides CE, I found out once again the origin of each OTN song and in fact it is as I had found out a few years ago:

1-Calling Elvis
2-Walk of life
3-Heavy fuel
4-Romeo and Juliet
5-The bug
6-Private investigations
7-Your latest trick
8-On every street
9-You and your friend
10-Money for nothing
11-Brothers in arms
12-Solid rock
13-Wild theme

Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20.05.92 [3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8]
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21.05.92 [1]
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 30.05.92 [,2,13]
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92 [9, 10, 11, 12]

I listened song by song from these respective shows above, the exception is some subtleties, small nuances in CE which was actually in Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21.05.92, the difference is that line of Mark greeting the audience with, "hey, alright! !!", Something they took from somewhere and put in the OTN edition, in no recording of these Bootleg there is this line at the beginning of CE or in another song, even in CE, the duet of drums and percussion is different in the bootleg,( so, the origin of this percussion and drums duet is still a mystery) there are also some guitar passages that precede the moment of this duet that were cut in the OTN edition. The track You Lastet Trick was actually recorded in Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20.05.92, along with tracks 3, 4, 5, 6, and 8, however, there are some sounds in the intro with the percussion in the bootleg recording that differ a bit of what ended up on OTN, the vocal interpretation is the same, the guitar I'm still not sure, there seems to be something strange that needs more analysis, (whoever is willing to listen to the version of You Lastet Trick on the bootleg, Nimes FRA 20.05. 92, and analyzing with me, will be excellent, I noticed sounds a little different in the introduction of percussion and drums, as I mentioned.) It's interesting to see what was left out of OTN in MFN in Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05. Mark probably doesn't think it's necessary to put that joke that the band always made in the intro, it's a shame it didn't pass, and also the end with Chris's little drum solo.

Funny the order here 8-On every street
9-You and your friend, when OES is after YAYFA in the Feyenoord bootleg, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92, as OES from OTN was in Nimes FRA 20.05.92, they chose to leave it like this, I would have left it: Your latest trick, You and your friend, On every street and Money for nothing, (remembering that between OES and MFN there are Two Young Lovers and Telegraph Road).

There is a short speech by Mark before starting YAYF that was omitted from OTN.

[2manyguitars]

Its an interesting analysis Bruno. I still think given the cumbersome nature of editing these shows (no Daws in 1990!) and the actual comments from Guy that these edits are far more likely to 'flown in' from other sources. Lots of those shows were recorded and just thrown in archive, plus I wouldn't mind betting that even the sound checks were recorded!

I have 2 questions for you.

Given the way OTN was spliced together can we really regard it as a genuine live album? It seems to me to be in a class of its own as I can find a few bands that took this approach (Rush is the only other example I could find).

And

Given that Guy himself has clearly said no studio overdubs, what evidence would it take for you to change your opinion?

As an afterthought, at least we can agree that OTN was innovative in its approach!

Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed my review and research.

As far as edits coming from another source, we basically have most of this tour documented through dozens of Bootlegs recordings.

Answering his question, 1- I would say genuine, no, Alchemy is more genuine in that sense, OTN ends up sinning by bringing the aspects I mentioned above, especially the CE track, whose audio is almost entirely in
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21.05.92, with the duet of drums and percussion of unknown origin and the video is a true mixture of at least two different dates, in two different places, this makes it too artificial. But the biggest sin of OTN is the same sin of Alchemy, the songs that were left out, from the historical point of view it is a sacrilege, because it does not leave for posterity an experience close to a concert of that historical moment of the band, of course I am aware that this vision of mine is part of the minority of consumers.

2- The evidence that would make me change my mind about overdubs would simply be if what was present on OTN was exactly the same as the original source, ie where did that, "Hey, Alright..." at the beginning of CL come from? Where did the audio for the drum and percussion duet in CE come from? None of the recordings are mentioned as sources for creating OTN. There are still some elements in YLT that need to be further analyzed.
Yes, I agree that OTN was innovative in its approach. Which Rush show took this approach? Exit Stage Left? (I love Rush).

Hi Bruno, yep exit stage left, and some others. They've well and truly owned up to it though! And what they did was again a similar approach to OTN. Parachuting different parts from different nights/sources....

[Brunno Nunes]

A little off topic

They've always needed a band historian to help process accurate information for their releases, there's always a bit of information missing, moving now to Live at The BBC, released 1995, it's about some songs from a show on 22.07 .1978 Paris Theater Lower Regent Street London UK and the last track, TOL, 19.12.1980 Rockpop, Westfahlenhalle Dortmund Germany, however, some strange things happen: The insert has the wrong information, Track 8 Live on "The Old Gray Whistle Test" 01/31/81, that this tv program was not even on that date mentioned in the insert, but on 29th November 1980.

The order of the first 7 songs is wrong and it's funny how they missed Six Blade Knife here, I love this version but Mark gets the lyrics wrong, he just forgets the part: "Took a stone from my soul when I was lame
Just so you could make me tame, yes
You take away my mind like you take away the top of a tin", something hilarious. I know that the band had no direct involvement with this release, it was a contractual matter from the record company to release something from the band, Mark already had his mind to start his solo career at this point, too bad that Live at The BBC is more of a live release that could have been more relevant if it came with all the songs, this is a kind of curse present in all official live releases of the band and part of the unofficial ones, like Dortmund 80, Werchter Festival 81 and Wembley 85. Even the final solo of the SOS clip was cut, a sacrilege,  Mark missed the first solo of SOS at Rockpalast 79 and with that we were left without a video of Southbound Again and Angel of Mercy, because he decided to play SOS again, hehehe... Things only DS fans experience...

[dmg]

I just finished an analysis where I went into other songs besides CE, I found out once again the origin of each OTN song and in fact it is as I had found out a few years ago:

1-Calling Elvis
2-Walk of life
3-Heavy fuel
4-Romeo and Juliet
5-The bug
6-Private investigations
7-Your latest trick
8-On every street
9-You and your friend
10-Money for nothing
11-Brothers in arms
12-Solid rock
13-Wild theme

Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20.05.92 [3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8]
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21.05.92 [1]
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 30.05.92 [,2,13]
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92 [9, 10, 11, 12]

I listened song by song from these respective shows above, the exception is some subtleties, small nuances in CE which was actually in Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21.05.92, the difference is that line of Mark greeting the audience with, "hey, alright! !!", Something they took from somewhere and put in the OTN edition, in no recording of these Bootleg there is this line at the beginning of CE or in another song, even in CE, the duet of drums and percussion is different in the bootleg,( so, the origin of this percussion and drums duet is still a mystery) there are also some guitar passages that precede the moment of this duet that were cut in the OTN edition. The track You Lastet Trick was actually recorded in Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20.05.92, along with tracks 3, 4, 5, 6, and 8, however, there are some sounds in the intro with the percussion in the bootleg recording that differ a bit of what ended up on OTN, the vocal interpretation is the same, the guitar I'm still not sure, there seems to be something strange that needs more analysis, (whoever is willing to listen to the version of You Lastet Trick on the bootleg, Nimes FRA 20.05. 92, and analyzing with me, will be excellent, I noticed sounds a little different in the introduction of percussion and drums, as I mentioned.) It's interesting to see what was left out of OTN in MFN in Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05. Mark probably doesn't think it's necessary to put that joke that the band always made in the intro, it's a shame it didn't pass, and also the end with Chris's little drum solo.

Funny the order here 8-On every street
9-You and your friend, when OES is after YAYFA in the Feyenoord bootleg, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92, as OES from OTN was in Nimes FRA 20.05.92, they chose to leave it like this, I would have left it: Your latest trick, You and your friend, On every street and Money for nothing, (remembering that between OES and MFN there are Two Young Lovers and Telegraph Road).

There is a short speech by Mark before starting YAYF that was omitted from OTN.

Your research is extensive and commendable, and I hate to throw a spanner in the works, but didn't they also record audio from the Paris shows in April if they needed it for dubbing? 

[Robson]

Does this topic also apply to the A Night In London and Real Live Roadrunning concert? 

[quizzaciously]

Does this topic also apply to the A Night In London and Real Live Roadrunning concert? 

I think, yes. Recently, I transcribed Mark's solo in "Romeo And Juliet" from Real Live Roadruning, and in one moment I am positive it's impossible to play with the position of Mark's hand, and naturally, he's framed from behind. Never trust your eyes, only trust your ears! If it sounds good, then it's good. And live album is never live, it's a ZOMBIE!