A Mark In Time

Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Pottel on February 25, 2010, 07:58:18 AM

Title: bad moments onstage
Post by: Pottel on February 25, 2010, 07:58:18 AM
listening to Sultans in Milan 2008.04.15 last night i was surprised to hear how much mark messed up the build up to the finale.
as in REALLY BAD: but then he pulls his "twiddly bits" show and you can hear the crowd go wild, as if nothing happened.
what other bad moments on stage do you remember??
(cologne 2005 with mark swearing at the moron security guy(s) is a good example also.)
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: guswallace on February 25, 2010, 08:55:15 AM
Listen to Toronto 2001: SOS's final solo is also bad. You can see that Mark smile all along the solo and have fun with Glenn and Richard. It happens to the best
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: superval99 on February 25, 2010, 09:38:37 AM
SOS Chicago 2001 - truly terrible!    :o   It is amply made up for, though, with lots of amazing stuff, such as TR from the same concert!   :)
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: cannibal on February 25, 2010, 09:45:58 AM
I remember Song For Sonny Liston with Emmylou, in Paris Bercy, look at that, I think that MK didn't feel very well during this gig, maybe ill, don't know really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-r9ku7RPPw

He starts on a wrong shape, and on 00:12 he looks the position of his hand on the neck, and slides down on the correct shape.

Incredible  :o
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: dustyvalentino on February 25, 2010, 11:26:22 AM
In Sheffield 96 he plays a horrendous wrong note on Feels Like Going Home. (from memory, can still remember discussing it on the old T-Road at the time, we were shocked that MK could make a mistake)

In New York 05 MK played a bad wrong note on Our Shangri La, I remember wincing at the time, but to be fair to them they STILL released it as a Crowfly bonus track.

Seem to recall Solid Rock was a bit ropey at Knebworth?

There's an interview with MK's former guitar tech Ron Eve in The Guitar Magazine from 1992 where he recounts a tale of giving MK his Pensa on teh OES tour only to discover when he started playing it that one of the strings went way out of tune. Obviousy being the OES tour (Sauseges for Nothing etc) MK went ballisitc. I've ofetn wondered if there is a bootleg of this moment out there.

Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Love Expresso on February 25, 2010, 11:32:51 AM
During the Hamburg 2001 show, they had some sound problems during the very first minutes of "Calling Elvis", and I remember there were some "special backstage pass winner guests" standing in the background of the stage, young people, and suddenly MK sent them away very gruff and looked really furious - and then a guy from the crew went to Guy's place and got some detailed instructions from Guy - always looking at MK - at least that was what I thought I interpreted then. Guy was looking into the audience all the time during the first two songs, and I think it was a very tense moment for him. Somehow the whole show was spoilt for me because MK's behaviour in those first minutes. And over and above, they skipped two songs from the earlier setlists, STP and PW, and so it was the shortest setlist of the whole tour. I was really down the next day I must admit. A few days earlier I had seen them in Munich and that show was absolutely awesome - with a thunderstorm outside the Olympiahalle during Telegraph Road (!). Very big difference.

But when I listen to the recording of that Hamburg show, I am astonished how great the part from "Junkie Doll" until "So Far Away" really is from that night - I think I was not in the right condition to enjoy it back then. Oh, and I remember a totally drunk guy, who suddenly turned up in the middle of the show from the back and decided to stand right in front of me - and he was snubbed by me and I thought, wow, at least it isn
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Love Expresso on February 25, 2010, 11:40:36 AM
SOS Chicago 2001 - truly terrible!    :o   It is amply made up for, though, with lots of amazing stuff, such as TR from the same concert!   :)

Yes, the SOS of this night is the worst thing I ever heard of MK. But I have the feeling that there was rarely one good Sultans on that whole tour -
I have some recordings, not too much, but nearly a dozen or so, and in every version there is at least one big mistake. Or the tempo in the beginning is wrong, or the final is messed up, or the middle part is messed up etc. And I think it was not Chad's fault, because Chad's drumming for me was the best
thing on the whole tour. And Geraint's playing was the worst from all MK bands ever...

LE
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: dmg on February 25, 2010, 12:25:52 PM
Worst moment for me was on the radio in Belgium, Sessions in Flanders for the promo for Shangri-La when he completely forgot the lyrics for Everybody Pays and Guy helped him out!  Anyone can get the lyrics mixed up but he just stopped singing completely  :-X and it sounded really bad.

I know MK made some mistakes during SOS during the StP tour but in my opinion that was only because he was stretching himself;  some of the best versions ever come from that tour:

Amsterdam 17.06.01
London 05.06.01
Lucca 07.07.01
Lyon 27.06.01
Manchester 19.07.01
Oslo 26.07.01
San Francisco 18.05.01 
Zurich 05.07.01
Sa
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Pyroaction on February 25, 2010, 12:45:14 PM
I remember Song For Sonny Liston with Emmylou, in Paris Bercy, look at that, I think that MK didn't feel very well during this gig, maybe ill, don't know really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-r9ku7RPPw

He starts on a wrong shape, and on 00:12 he looks the position of his hand on the neck, and slides down on the correct shape.

Incredible  :o

The ambiant temperature on the venue was terrible.
They had to install fan on the stage (Guy was talking of 100
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: cannibal on February 25, 2010, 01:41:45 PM
I remember Song For Sonny Liston with Emmylou, in Paris Bercy, look at that, I think that MK didn't feel very well during this gig, maybe ill, don't know really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-r9ku7RPPw

He starts on a wrong shape, and on 00:12 he looks the position of his hand on the neck, and slides down on the correct shape.

Incredible  :o

The ambiant temperature on the venue was terrible.
They had to install fan on the stage (Guy was talking of 100
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: superval99 on February 25, 2010, 02:22:09 PM
Although MK is very modest these days and appears embarrassed when called the world's best guitarist, I think, in his heart, he really wants us to believe that it's true.   That is why, imo, he doesn't want recordings of his concerts made to spoil this illusion and have mistakes recorded for posterity.   It is much better, in his mind, that we attend the concerts and enjoy what we hear "live" and as a one-off, because amidst the excitement and euphoria, mistakes aren't noticed and cannot be listened to again, over and over!  We, the fans would go home delighted with another amazing performance ringing in our ears!  I really think that MK is also very nervous and uncomfortable with "official" recordings and that is why we have so few. For myself, I love the recordings, especially bootlegs - warts and all!  

Having said that, he is still the most exciting guitarist I have heard and he has me literally on the edge of my seat!  No-one comes close to him for me.   :)
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: jbaent on February 25, 2010, 02:35:13 PM
Since 2001 I don
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Mossguitar on February 25, 2010, 03:02:15 PM
Since 2001 I don
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: dmg on February 25, 2010, 03:03:29 PM
Like everyone else he's always made mistakes but his playing is getting a little less accurate as he get older as is only natural.  However, due to his style of playing and the fact he hardly uses any effects/distortion (like most other guitarists do) every minor error is exaggerated so I don't think the "situation" is quite as bad as we are making it out to be.

Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: dustyvalentino on February 25, 2010, 03:28:14 PM
Since 2001 I don
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Dutchessy on February 25, 2010, 05:16:26 PM
He makes a very big mistake in Brothers in Arms during BIA tour in 85 or 86... Don't know which concert, but it's almost even terrible as Chicago 2001 :o
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: dmg on February 25, 2010, 05:26:10 PM
He makes a very big mistake in Brothers in Arms during BIA tour in 85 or 86... Don't know which concert, but it's almost even terrible as Chicago 2001 :o
Brussels 27.05.85, near the very start of the tour and also during the opening solo of TOL from Bilbao 01.06.85 probably the only two mistakes from the entire wonderful BIA tour!
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: holaknopfler on February 25, 2010, 05:28:42 PM
I think this is a weird discussion.. ???
MARK=GUITARIST.
What are guitarist doing? Yes! They sometimes make a mistake, and Mark does too.
For me he is the best guitarist in the whole world, so who bothers if he makes a mistake?

Lars.
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: dustyvalentino on February 25, 2010, 05:54:24 PM
I actually think he makes less mistakes than a lot of guitarists, mainly because he usually plays exactly the same thing every night.  :-\
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Love Expresso on February 25, 2010, 06:00:58 PM
Hmmm..

I remember another show 1996 where Richard took the wrong instrument before starting "A night in summer long ago" and Mark "spoiled" the tension of
what song's coming next by telling him "No, Richard, that
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: holaknopfler on February 25, 2010, 06:03:15 PM
I actually think he makes less mistakes than a lot of guitarists, mainly because he usually plays exactly the same thing every night.  :-\
Well, you have a point there haha:P
He should change the set more often if you ask me. ;D
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Pottel on February 25, 2010, 08:12:56 PM
lars, do not take it too seriously, it is just about bad moments onstage, no bashing of a great guitar player.
anyways, i got a floyd bootleg with that exact title, and it is a great listen, it collects the moments of rain pouring down onstage in atlanta 1994 and all instruments crashing one after the other (hence the tile "Rail Like hell" based on the original Floyd song "Runn Like Hell") and it goes on with shows in the early 70ies where the whole pa broke down for shorter or longer periods and it includes the famous legendary bad moment where roger waters gets so pissed off with the constant lighting of fireworks and shouting for top 40 songs during the quiter moments of the show that he beckons a fan to the stage and then,...spits at him, that was the point of no return for the band, and the wall album (building a wall between band and audience) would follow.
those moments are not negative, they can actually be great fun.
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: dmg on February 25, 2010, 09:39:06 PM
Well there was Badalona 2001 when during Bonaparte the power to the amps went down or I think it was Werchter 1981 when some of the lights went out on stage.  Didn't they also lose power to the amps during Rudiger in Zaragoza 2005, perhaps no bad thing! ;D
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: knopfling on February 26, 2010, 03:02:11 AM
At Chicago 2006 ATRR tour, there were all kinds of problems with the sound, and Richard's bazouki feed didn't work until halfway through DWB. MK kept apologizing. When they couldn't get Richard's sound, MK decided to start the song anyway.

Also, Salt Lake 2005, MK messed up the words on TR. He forgot the words for a second on the "used to like to go to work, but they shut it all down" verse. But he covered it up so well, most people didn't notice. It's my favorite song, so I did notice.
The next day, I got to meet much of the band in Las Vegas. I was talking with Glenn Worf about it, and he said he was quite surprised MK forgot the words, and he said MK was really mad at himself after the concert. Glenn and I then began talking about it being surprising MK doesn't make more mistakes as he's doing sometimes complicated lyrics with impressive guitar playing. Glenn sounded like he's quite an MK fan. Glenn was extremely nice and talked to me for about 5 minutes.
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: IrisRose on February 26, 2010, 03:47:15 AM
I love him, warts and all, as Val says.   They make him human.    Well, the 'sausages' moment . . . .  But anyone can lose it.   I have.    ::)
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: ds1984 on February 26, 2010, 03:15:28 PM
Also, Salt Lake 2006, MK messed up the words on TR.

You mean 2005 or 2008 or it wasn't TR...

The bad moment I recall was "ATRR" show in Paris Le Zenith. I was front row seated but some people at the start of the show got from the back and seated in front of us. No big deal in itself but a small group on the right started to be quite heavily drunk and badly behaved like making LOUD phone calls while the band played.

In the same venue in 2001, on one of the two shows played there, Mark's National was muted during the entire intro of TR.
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: dustyvalentino on February 26, 2010, 03:35:22 PM
No big deal in itself but a small group on the right started to be quite heavily drunk and badly behaved like making LOUD phone calls while the band played.

Hate stuff like this. Couldn't believe it when I read this:

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1523342
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: knopfling on February 26, 2010, 07:25:28 PM
ds1984 -- yes, 2005.
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Love Expresso on February 26, 2010, 08:45:53 PM

Steve Earle? Galway Girl...

Hmmmmm... great song!

Sorry to be OT. Just two weeks ago I had to watch P.S. I love you, and there in that movie it is an important song - and I must admit the whole scene
really gave me goosebumps...

But where were we... ahmmm.... MK, yes, yes,

he
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: dustyvalentino on February 26, 2010, 11:15:12 PM

Steve Earle? Galway Girl...

Hmmmmm... great song!

Sorry to be OT. Just two weeks ago I had to watch P.S. I love you, and there in that movie it is an important song - and I must admit the whole scene
really gave me goosebumps...

But where were we... ahmmm.... MK, yes, yes,

he
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Banjo99uk on February 27, 2010, 06:35:34 PM
No big deal in itself but a small group on the right started to be quite heavily drunk and badly behaved like making LOUD phone calls while the band played.

Hate stuff like this. Couldn't believe it when I read this:

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1523342

You think thats bad.  I went to the Athens gig in 2008 and MK lost the plot.  He was furious with the video cameras, so much so, he changed the words during why aye man to "I'm a wanker i dont care, yeah you know who you are" whilst pointing to someone in the crowd.  I couldn't believe it and it kind of spoilt the rest of the gig for me as I was on edge.  He said a few other things during Cannibals but cant remember them.  I've tried to find a bootleg of it but cant.  It would be well worth a listen to hear what he says to the crowd.  It was a bit of a sausage moment I think.
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: dustyvalentino on February 27, 2010, 10:11:41 PM
Ah man, that's too bad. Yes, people should have respected his rule but it was crazy that he got so obsessed by it.  :-\
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: goldenheart96 on February 28, 2010, 03:07:39 PM

Sorry to be OT. Just two weeks ago I had to watch P.S. I love you, and there in that movie it is an important song - and I must admit the whole scene
really gave me goosebumps...


LOL, you "had to watch it"  ;D

Sorry now I'm OT too but I just liked the way you put it  :)
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: ds1984 on March 02, 2010, 04:27:07 PM
No big deal in itself but a small group on the right started to be quite heavily drunk and badly behaved like making LOUD phone calls while the band played.

Hate stuff like this. Couldn't believe it when I read this:

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1523342


You think thats bad.  I went to the Athens gig in 2008 and MK lost the plot.  He was furious with the video cameras, so much so, he changed the words during why aye man to "I'm a wanker i dont care, yeah you know who you are" whilst pointing to someone in the crowd.  I couldn't believe it and it kind of spoilt the rest of the gig for me as I was on edge.  He said a few other things during Cannibals but cant remember them.  I've tried to find a bootleg of it but cant.  It would be well worth a listen to hear what he says to the crowd.  It was a bit of a sausage moment I think.

Did you try Youtube? It would be strange to find the video with Mark pointing at you...

About bad audience behaviour the 1977 Pink Floyd "In The Flesh " Tour is quite notorious. The show at Oackland when Roger had to interrupt "POTW" due to fireworks, or the last show ot the tour given at Montr
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Love Expresso on March 04, 2010, 11:55:32 PM
By coincidence, I found this description on JvT's "On Every Bootleg"-site, and it made me think of this "Bad moments" thread immediately ;D.
So I copied it (if that's ok).  It is from the description of the "Sultans of Portland 1985" recording. Never heard about this incident before.   

   
 Money for nothing was stopped during the intro of the song because somebody in the audience threw a wet T-shirt on Mark Knopfler, who said something that made this person feel like a fool: "Whoever threw a wet T-Shirt, alright everybody sheer 'a jerk'. One, two three: "You're a jerk!". Thank you, now you've got 15.000 people who think you're a complete jerk!".
    

LE
 
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: sweetsurrender on March 05, 2010, 07:55:42 AM
Love Expresso,

I recently listened to that bootleg. that "jerk" deserved it really.  It wasn't a bad moment for MK maybe for that 'jerk"  He probably got offended with the word "faggot" in MFN.  It was actually a pretty cool listening. 
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Dutchessy on March 05, 2010, 11:41:19 AM
Which version is that? I want it!
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: holaknopfler on March 05, 2010, 03:45:21 PM
By coincidence, I found this description on JvT's "On Every Bootleg"-site, and it made me think of this "Bad moments" thread immediately ;D.
So I copied it (if that's ok).  It is from the description of the "Sultans of Portland 1985" recording. Never heard about this incident before.   

   
 Money for nothing was stopped during the intro of the song because somebody in the audience threw a wet T-shirt on Mark Knopfler, who said something that made this person feel like a fool: "Whoever threw a wet T-Shirt, alright everybody sheer 'a jerk'. One, two three: "You're a jerk!". Thank you, now you've got 15.000 people who think you're a complete jerk!".
    

LE
 

Hahahahaha! ;D
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: sweetsurrender on March 06, 2010, 05:31:07 PM
Which version is that? I want it!

It's from the "Portland 1985 recording" You can find it from the tracker.   A really cool listening.  I kept going back to it just to hear something you don't normally hear at a concert.
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Dutchessy on March 07, 2010, 12:17:09 AM
Which version is that? I want it!

It's from the "Portland 1985 recording" You can find it from the tracker.   A really cool listening.  I kept going back to it just to hear something you don't normally hear at a concert.

Thnx! Gonna download it!
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Pottel on March 09, 2010, 10:18:46 PM
listening to it now, waiting for the part.....


mmm, just listened to both portland 17th of sept and the night after...can't hear this, when in the song, and on which night does this happen??
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: dmg on March 09, 2010, 11:11:01 PM
listening to it now, waiting for the part.....


mmm, just listened to both portland 17th of sept and the night after...can't hear this, when in the song, and on which night does this happen??

It's Portland 07.10.85.  Remember they went back in October in '85 perhaps due to popular demand or venue availability, I don't know?
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Pottel on March 09, 2010, 11:14:42 PM
aaaaahhhh
thanks..
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: localhero1986 on March 13, 2010, 02:28:04 PM
Ah guys, nice example is BIA during the SL tour in Amsterdam (2nd night). You might remember the beautiful arrangement by RB? ;D (sh)it happens. ;)
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Tally on March 13, 2010, 04:17:07 PM
Ah guys, nice example is BIA during the SL tour in Amsterdam (2nd night). You might remember the beautiful arrangement by RB? ;D (sh)it happens. ;)

What happened?
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Dutchessy on March 13, 2010, 05:42:06 PM
Ah guys, nice example is BIA during the SL tour in Amsterdam (2nd night). You might remember the beautiful arrangement by RB? ;D (sh)it happens. ;)

What happened?

Capo on wrong fret, so a completely wrong tuning in the first seconds of BIA (Richard's guitar, a cittern or something like that)

And during Sailing to Philadelphia that evening he made another mistake. Instead of singing the second verse, he started singing the words 'we are sailing' and than he corrected and changed to the second verse :P

That was my FIRST MK concert, 16 april 2005 ;)
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Love Expresso on March 13, 2010, 06:15:52 PM
Yeah yeah, Amsterjam... Some good weed over there, I think Guy's "happy hour" was a little too happy that evening... :lol

Wonder if you ever attended another MK show after that? That's true love.... ::)

LE
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Dutchessy on March 14, 2010, 11:59:41 AM
Yeah yeah, Amsterjam... Some good weed over there, I think Guy's "happy hour" was a little too happy that evening... :lol

Wonder if you ever attended another MK show after that? That's true love.... ::)

LE

Oh yes ;) I almost cried during Sultans of Swing solo! It was awsome!

The next day was my second concert, 17 april Rotterdam ;)
2006, with emmylou harris
2007: Lucky winner of 4 tickets for Showcase Melkweg Amsterdam (I shaked hands with Mark) :D
2008: 4 concerts
2010: 4 concerts

So... To be honest... I didn't noticed the mistakes during the concert! (I was blown away by the concert) When I listened the concert afterwards, i noticed ;)

And as you know... True love never fade :-[ :-* :lol
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: superval99 on March 14, 2010, 12:08:39 PM
Dutchessy,  That is the reason, IMO, that MK would rather the concerts weren't recorded.  We don't notice the mistakes at the time, but only on the recordings!   ;D  Enjoy the moment with no postmortems!   Just like most fans, though, I love to hear the recordings, especially those I attended.   ;)    I'm really glad you enjoyed all your concerts.   :)

Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Dutchessy on March 14, 2010, 01:12:13 PM
Dutchessy,  That is the reason, IMO, that MK would rather the concerts weren't recorded.  We don't notice the mistakes at the time, but only on the recordings!   ;D  Enjoy the moment with no postmortems!   Just like most fans, though, I love to hear the recordings, especially those I attended.   ;)    I'm really glad you enjoyed all your concerts.   :)



Yes! That's true ;) But all the concerts where fantastic! He makes very few mistakes, so every concert is a highlight ;D I'm really looking forward to this tour! Ofcourse... Everyone does! :D :D ;D
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Simon on March 14, 2010, 02:22:10 PM
The opening 2 songs at Newcastle in 2008. The sound engineer had got it badly wrong and the vocals couldn't be heard properly above the 'wail' of sound. I was getting seriously upset as I thought the whole gig would be like that. Fortunately it was sorted by the 3rd song.

Things like that should never happen, not ever. The amount of time and resources that are put into getting things just right and the fine detail that goes into the whole production are suddenly forgotten about when something really simple is goes wrong.

I wonder if this would have happened in the days before in-ear monitors - and the band heard almost exactly what the audience was hearing instead of their own individually tailored feeds.
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Dutchessy on March 14, 2010, 02:58:26 PM
First gig in 2008 was the same! In the front we couldn't hear Mark singing during Cannibals. People started screaming: 'Mark, we can't hear you!' They fixed it before Why aye man
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: superval99 on March 14, 2010, 03:29:37 PM
Then the vocals on the first few lines of "Sultans" was hard to hear on the first night!   :-\
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Dutchessy on March 14, 2010, 04:24:29 PM
What are we actually doing? :P

Why recall the bad moments? There are a lot more WONDERFUL moments! The tour is about to start :lol ;D :D
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: superval99 on March 14, 2010, 05:01:22 PM
Roll on the tour - I can't wait!     ;D  :P
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Simon on March 14, 2010, 05:22:20 PM
What are we actually doing? :P

Why recall the bad moments? There are a lot more WONDERFUL moments! The tour is about to start :lol ;D :D

I am hoping someone reads this and does a double, nay treble souncheck before the concerts.
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: dustyvalentino on March 14, 2010, 05:37:24 PM
I wonder if this would have happened in the days before in-ear monitors - and the band heard almost exactly what the audience was hearing instead of their own individually tailored feeds.

Not necessarily, more often than not the main PA was in front of the stage anyway and the performers had seperate "wedges" to hear what they were playing, so it still could have happened.
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Mossguitar on March 15, 2010, 01:53:41 AM
The opening 2 songs at Newcastle in 2008. The sound engineer had got it badly wrong and the vocals couldn't be heard properly above the 'wail' of sound. I was getting seriously upset as I thought the whole gig would be like that. Fortunately it was sorted by the 3rd song.

Things like that should never happen, not ever. The amount of time and resources that are put into getting things just right and the fine detail that goes into the whole production are suddenly forgotten about when something really simple is goes wrong.

I wonder if this would have happened in the days before in-ear monitors - and the band heard almost exactly what the audience was hearing instead of their own individually tailored feeds.

As Dusty points out, a band doesn't hear what the audience hear. No difference between in-ear monitors or other monitors.

About the sound in the hall: The caracteristics of the hall normally change drastically when it's filled with people, so it's almost impossible to avoid sound problems during the first songs.   
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: ingridswing on March 15, 2010, 10:08:46 AM
The same happened in 2008 at the first gig at the RAH. On 2nd row we heard about ... nothing  >:(
But a soundboy was running up and down and after some songs it was fixed. Second night RAH it didn't happen anymore  :D
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: localhero1986 on March 15, 2010, 12:52:42 PM
The same happened in 2008 at the first gig at the RAH. On 2nd row we heard about ... nothing  >:(
But a soundboy was running up and down and after some songs it was fixed. Second night RAH it didn't happen anymore  :D

Well, in fact it is the choice between a good seat or good sound, isn't it? ;D

Just kidding, overall the sound during MK shows is good and especially from the 3rd song on. I've heard worse... :disbelief (sorry, had to use this new smiley, it's awesome!) :D
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Simon on March 15, 2010, 08:43:26 PM
I wonder if this would have happened in the days before in-ear monitors - and the band heard almost exactly what the audience was hearing instead of their own individually tailored feeds.

Not necessarily, more often than not the main PA was in front of the stage anyway and the performers had seperate "wedges" to hear what they were playing, so it still could have happened.

The vocalist would undoubtedly have wanted to hear his voice though - thats what singers do - want to hear their own voices :-) So he/she would have a good idea if the mix was wrong.
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Simon on March 15, 2010, 08:46:43 PM
The opening 2 songs at Newcastle in 2008. The sound engineer had got it badly wrong and the vocals couldn't be heard properly above the 'wail' of sound. I was getting seriously upset as I thought the whole gig would be like that. Fortunately it was sorted by the 3rd song.

Things like that should never happen, not ever. The amount of time and resources that are put into getting things just right and the fine detail that goes into the whole production are suddenly forgotten about when something really simple is goes wrong.

I wonder if this would have happened in the days before in-ear monitors - and the band heard almost exactly what the audience was hearing instead of their own individually tailored feeds.

As Dusty points out, a band doesn't hear what the audience hear. No difference between in-ear monitors or other monitors.

About the sound in the hall: The caracteristics of the hall normally change drastically when it's filled with people, so it's almost impossible to avoid sound problems during the first songs.   

I think there is a difference between IEMs and normal stage monitors. Firstly no one can hear what you are listening to in your IEMs so you can have any mix you choose. You can't have 6 or 7 stage monitors playing  a different mix through each - that would sound awful to those performing and there would possibly be phase issues. That's why I said the band almost heard what the audience heard.
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Simon on March 15, 2010, 08:48:21 PM
The opening 2 songs at Newcastle in 2008. The sound engineer had got it badly wrong and the vocals couldn't be heard properly above the 'wail' of sound. I was getting seriously upset as I thought the whole gig would be like that. Fortunately it was sorted by the 3rd song.

Things like that should never happen, not ever. The amount of time and resources that are put into getting things just right and the fine detail that goes into the whole production are suddenly forgotten about when something really simple is goes wrong.

I wonder if this would have happened in the days before in-ear monitors - and the band heard almost exactly what the audience was hearing instead of their own individually tailored feeds.

As Dusty points out, a band doesn't hear what the audience hear. No difference between in-ear monitors or other monitors.

About the sound in the hall: The caracteristics of the hall normally change drastically when it's filled with people, so it's almost impossible to avoid sound problems during the first songs.   

I am sure even a half good sound engineer can cope with the difference between a full hall and an empty hall though. And if that were the case it would happen at every concert everywhere. i know, why don't they invite us all to the sound check - how cool would that be? :-) You may have a point there for a bit of leverage to getting in on the afternoon!
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: dmg on March 16, 2010, 12:15:40 PM

I am sure even a half good sound engineer can cope with the difference between a full hall and an empty hall though. And if that were the case it would happen at every concert everywhere. i know, why don't they invite us all to the sound check - how cool would that be? :-) You may have a point there for a bit of leverage to getting in on the afternoon!
[/quote]

But Guy keeps telling us they're so, so good that now they don't even need to do soundchecks and that's why the sound is so great! ;D
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: ds1984 on March 16, 2010, 12:27:49 PM

I am sure even a half good sound engineer can cope with the difference between a full hall and an empty hall though. And if that were the case it would happen at every concert everywhere. i know, why don't they invite us all to the sound check - how cool would that be? :-) You may have a point there for a bit of leverage to getting in on the afternoon!

But Guy keeps telling us they're so, so good that now they don't even need to do soundchecks and that's why the sound is so great! ;D
[/quote]


Soundwise, the RAH is a nightmare.
To get a real good sound there it is lot of work as the hall is not designed for amplified music.
Beside it can be excellent to one area and very bad a few meters away. There are some box that I won't definitively go back in again.

I had the opportunity to chat with a singer that performed on that stage. She explained that the echo from the back is 2-4 second delayed so it is very difficult for vocal performer to properly work in such condition. Myself in 2001 seated on the 2nd tiers box I saw MK drummer hit his tom and but the sound was coming late.

Using IEM for musician is a huge improvement because they cut from the disturbing accoustic artefac of the venue.
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: dustyvalentino on March 16, 2010, 02:01:15 PM
The vocalist would undoubtedly have wanted to hear his voice though - thats what singers do - want to hear their own voices :-) So he/she would have a good idea if the mix was wrong.

Yup, but still only the monitor mix, which will be different to the front of house mix. Monitor mix could have vocals in it with no vocals going to the front of house mix, regardless of whether it was IEM or wedges.
Title: Re: bad moments onstage
Post by: Mossguitar on May 06, 2010, 01:02:52 PM
The opening 2 songs at Newcastle in 2008. The sound engineer had got it badly wrong and the vocals couldn't be heard properly above the 'wail' of sound. I was getting seriously upset as I thought the whole gig would be like that. Fortunately it was sorted by the 3rd song.

Things like that should never happen, not ever. The amount of time and resources that are put into getting things just right and the fine detail that goes into the whole production are suddenly forgotten about when something really simple is goes wrong.

I wonder if this would have happened in the days before in-ear monitors - and the band heard almost exactly what the audience was hearing instead of their own individually tailored feeds.

As Dusty points out, a band doesn't hear what the audience hear. No difference between in-ear monitors or other monitors.

About the sound in the hall: The caracteristics of the hall normally change drastically when it's filled with people, so it's almost impossible to avoid sound problems during the first songs.   

I think there is a difference between IEMs and normal stage monitors. Firstly no one can hear what you are listening to in your IEMs so you can have any mix you choose. You can't have 6 or 7 stage monitors playing  a different mix through each - that would sound awful to those performing and there would possibly be phase issues. That's why I said the band almost heard what the audience heard.
No difference between IEMs and normal stage monitors when it comes to allowing different mix through each speakers. You usually have your own personal mix in your own stage monitor. The singer normally has much louder vocals in his/her monitor than in the FOH mix or in my monitor. And I have a lot of my guitars in mine, especially acoustic guitars. (It depends on the stage size. If it's small, I normally use my guitar amp as a monitor for electric guitars.) This makes it interesting to move around the stage during the a concert (as I tend to do a lot if the stage size allows me), because suddenly you stand before another band members monitor, and the sound is all different (and where did the sound of my guitar go?! ;D ) The last gig I played, the drummer wanted loud piano in his monitor, because he coudn't see the pianist. He didn't need much electric guitar, because my amp was standing right beside him. I could see the pianist and heard a lot of sound directly from the grand piano, so I didn't need much piano in my monitor. And so on and so forth... (as mk puts it ;))