A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Robson on July 22, 2018, 09:52:33 PM
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I watched a concert from Dortmund today on December 19, 1980. Lions are slowly developing to gain momentum at the end. Beautiful version. News for John Lennon. Of course, the echoes of Private Investigations. And the fourth hand in The Carousel Waltz :) (?) A great concert.
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I watched a concert from Dortmund today on December 19, 1980. Lions are slowly developing to gain momentum at the end. Beautiful version. News for John Lennon. Of course, the echoes of Private Investigations. And the fourth hand in The Carousel Waltz :) (?) A great concert.
the fourth hand is Ron Eve's one. He played that chord during all the OL tour
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I wish this great concert had been released in HD as a bonus to Alchemy.
Fantastic versions of Lions (love the change of rythm) and most importantly News (changed from little nice tune to epic masterpiece with the Hammond Organ - love the reference to John Lenon).
Great version of DTTW too, I love the teasing of the audience between the intro and the main song. Although I tend to prefer the stripped down '79 versions (BBC Arena uptempo one is fab), keyboard is a poor subtitute for David's guitar groove IMHO, this is where you can hear that David was useful...
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I watched a concert from Dortmund today on December 19, 1980. Lions are slowly developing to gain momentum at the end. Beautiful version. News for John Lennon. Of course, the echoes of Private Investigations. And the fourth hand in The Carousel Waltz :) (?) A great concert.
the fourth hand is Ron Eve's one. He played that chord during all the OL tour
Ron Eve. I forgot about him. He was also a technical during on every street tour. Thanks JF:)
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I wish this great concert had been released in HD as a bonus to Alchemy.
Fantastic versions of Lions (love the change of rythm) and most importantly News (changed from little nice tune to epic masterpiece with the Hammond Organ - love the reference to John Lenon).
Great version of DTTW too, I love the teasing of the audience between the intro and the main song. Although I tend to prefer the stripped down '79 versions (BBC Arena uptempo one is fab), keyboard is a poor subtitute for David's guitar groove IMHO, this is where you can hear that David was useful...
:thumbsup
It is true. Down To The Waterline - great
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I wish this great concert had been released in HD as a bonus to Alchemy.
Fantastic versions of Lions (love the change of rythm) and most importantly News (changed from little nice tune to epic masterpiece with the Hammond Organ - love the reference to John Lenon).
Great version of DTTW too, I love the teasing of the audience between the intro and the main song. Although I tend to prefer the stripped down '79 versions (BBC Arena uptempo one is fab), keyboard is a poor subtitute for David's guitar groove IMHO, this is where you can hear that David was useful...
I love OL arrangements, but the Dortmund is not my fav gig of the tour, because :
- it lacks many other good songs from that tour : single handed sailor, in the gallery, Wher do you think you're going, Telegraph road....
- I don't like Mark's behaviour during this concert. too much "show off" while he makes some mistakes
- I think News is even more elaborate at the end of the tour (e.g. Werchter), I mean more "epic" than Dortmund. thats 's why I prefer versions from the end of the tour. BTW, the song was also dedicated to Marley after may 81
- tunnel of love is not very good. it's the version featuring on live at BBC, and you can hear at the end that he is out of tune. Versions from Milano, Wiesbaden or Werchter are better imho
if I want to listen to a 80-81 gig, I listen to :
- Wiesbaden (fantastic where do you think you're going)
- Emerald city for songs that were dropped after the 1st leg of the tour (gallery, sailor...), and for the story before Les Boys
- Werchter for my favorite Angel of mercy, and DTTW where you can hear clearly the piano solo, I like it a lot
- San Remo for good sounding Telegraph Road
but surely not Dortmund at first choice :)
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For sure the concert is strangely short.
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For sure the concert is strangely short.
Not strangely, it was a festival with more artists to play before and after.
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https://www.setlist.fm/festival/1980/rock-pop-in-concert-1980-63d62a97.html
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- I don't like Mark's behaviour during this concert. too much "show off" while he makes some mistakes
- I think News is even more elaborate at the end of the tour (e.g. Werchter), I mean more "epic" than Dortmund. thats 's why I prefer versions from the end of the tour. BTW, the song was also dedicated to Marley after may 81
- tunnel of love is not very good. it's the version featuring on live at BBC, and you can hear at the end that he is out of tune. Versions from Milano, Wiesbaden or Werchter are better imho
if I want to listen to a 80-81 gig, I listen to :
- Wiesbaden (fantastic where do you think you're going)
- Emerald city for songs that were dropped after the 1st leg of the tour (gallery, sailor...), and for the story before Les Boys
- Werchter for my favorite Angel of mercy, and DTTW where you can hear clearly the piano solo, I like it a lot
- San Remo for good sounding Telegraph Road
but surely not Dortmund at first choice :)
"Show off" ?! Did not notice that much... I found him pretty emotional with John Lenon...
My favourite is Paris 17.06.1981. Not only because I'm french, but because it is the most professional audience recording we have, by a taper who knew what is was doing, with very good harware. It sounds fantastic.
News in pretty similar though between Dortmund and Paris, what's the difference ?
As for TOL, well, it always felt flat at the end, Mark's tone was too weak... This was much improved in 82/83. But this is not a Dortmund-specific problem ?
I love Dortmund for a simple reason: it is the only one available in video for Lions and News (besides Paris 18.06.81 which features News, but the PQ is atrocious).
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For DDTW, yes, the piano solo (only present in the last 2 weeks concert, not even there yet in Wiesbaden) adds to it. But still I prefer David's guitar to Hal's on it, that's why I still prefer BBC :)
As for WDYTYG, it depends on my mood. In 80/81 the synth additions are atrocious and don't bring much. Also, the end solo is slower than in '79, I prefer it fast; but in 80/81 the synth mid solo is followed by an extra screaming guitar solo, and THAT is great :) Oh well, I think I like both the one on the BBC documentary (12.79) and Paris '81 :)
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For sure the concert is strangely short.
Not strangely, it was a festival with more artists to play before and after.
Yes. As I watched yesterday, I did not think it was a festival. I wanted more! :)
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Werchter 81 concert broadcast is longer.
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Werchter 81 concert broadcast is longer.
I have it. I will repeat it today :)
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"Show off" ?! Did not notice that much... I found him pretty emotional with John Lenon...
I mean for example on the DTTW intro, "il se la joue un peu trop" (sorry for other forumers can't find the english expression)
News in pretty similar though between Dortmund and Paris, what's the difference ?
Maybe I'm wrong, but in Werchter I feel more "emphasis", and maybe more transition chords, but maybe my memory fails, can't check right now
As for TOL, well, it always felt flat at the end, Mark's tone was too weak... This was much improved in 82/83. But this is not a Dortmund-specific problem ?
yes the tone is not Dortmund-specific, but the out of tune is for sure !
I love Dortmund for a simple reason: it is the only one available in video for Lions and News (besides Paris 18.06.81 which features News, but the PQ is atrocious).
yes of course for the video, but I must admit that when I saw a video 1, 2 or rarely 3 times, it's enough for me. I can listen to a recording bizillion of times when I like it, but watching a video asks more disponibility so I don't have much the time to sit down and watch a concert, while listening to it in the car, on bike, in the subway, the bus, by foot, etc....I can do it every day. So having a video is not that important to me. There was time when I would prefer to have ANIL or the complete RLRR on CD. Now I transfered them onto files and I listen to them on my player and I enjoy them more than wtaching them on TV.
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I prefer the Boston '80 concert from this era, however it's not my favourite era. I think a lot of the experimental exercises didn't really work out too well, especially in Lions which just sounded awful. On and on with no direction whatsoever becoming louder and more boring with it. TOL nearly always went out of tune at the end! OUATItW was just average with no real soloing. I prefer the simplicity of the '79 versions or the extended 1982-83 versions. Most of these tunes were better in earlier or later tours IMHO. The only highlight from this tour was Skateaway. More an interesting tour than a great tour for me.
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I prefer the Boston '80 concert from this era, however it's not my favourite era. I think a lot of the experimental exercises didn't really work out too well, especially in Lions which just sounded awful. On and on with no direction whatsoever becoming louder and more boring with it. TOL nearly always went out of tune at the end! OUATItW was just average with no real soloing. I prefer the simplicity of the '79 versions or the extended 1982-83 versions. Most of these tunes were better in earlier or later tours IMHO. The only highlight from this tour was Skateaway. More an interesting tour than a great tour for me.
Quite a fantastic tour for me:
1) Very balanced setlist, all first 3 albums very well represented, Telegraph Road in advance !
2) Very interesting arrangements of old songs. For Lions, I agree that the end solo was boring, it was better and rawer in 78/79. But the core of the song was great, with the more dynamic rythm ! And News was even better, very touching with synth and Hammond organ. Quite unique ! And what about WDYTYG with the extra guitar solo in the middle ? I thought you liked this one better than the 79 versions, dmg ?
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I prefer the Boston '80 concert from this era, however it's not my favourite era. I think a lot of the experimental exercises didn't really work out too well, especially in Lions which just sounded awful. On and on with no direction whatsoever becoming louder and more boring with it. TOL nearly always went out of tune at the end! OUATItW was just average with no real soloing. I prefer the simplicity of the '79 versions or the extended 1982-83 versions. Most of these tunes were better in earlier or later tours IMHO. The only highlight from this tour was Skateaway. More an interesting tour than a great tour for me.
Quite a fantastic tour for me:
1) Very balanced setlist, all first 3 albums very well represented, Telegraph Road in advance !
2) Very interesting arrangements of old songs. For Lions, I agree that the end solo was boring, it was better and rawer in 78/79. But the core of the song was great, with the more dynamic rythm ! And News was even better, very touching with synth and Hammond organ. Quite unique ! And what about WDYTYG with the extra guitar solo in the middle ? I thought you liked this one better than the 79 versions, dmg ?
Yes, WDYTYG was very fine indeed. :)
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I prefer the simplicity of the '79 versions or the extended 1982-83 versions.
yes. as Jeroen says in his comments on most concerts of this tour : "the missing leink between the raw 4 pieces early band and the almost prog-extended-super-groupe from Alchemy era
I like expermientation, but I agree with you that it's not always tastefull.
I really like Angel of mercy with the band presentation, and the jazzy-feel in the verses
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This is probably the tour I miss the most.
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I prefer the Boston '80 concert from this era, however it's not my favourite era. I think a lot of the experimental exercises didn't really work out too well, especially in Lions which just sounded awful. On and on with no direction whatsoever becoming louder and more boring with it. TOL nearly always went out of tune at the end! OUATItW was just average with no real soloing. I prefer the simplicity of the '79 versions or the extended 1982-83 versions. Most of these tunes were better in earlier or later tours IMHO. The only highlight from this tour was Skateaway. More an interesting tour than a great tour for me.
Totally agree and well put. They were totally overpowering and Mark seems drunk on almost all I saw from this era..
Lots of energy can be good at times and nowadays I wish he would put some more into "showing off", but at those days most of it was musically very ambitious but just ... too much.
LE
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I prefer the Boston '80 concert from this era, however it's not my favourite era. I think a lot of the experimental exercises didn't really work out too well, especially in Lions which just sounded awful. On and on with no direction whatsoever becoming louder and more boring with it. TOL nearly always went out of tune at the end! OUATItW was just average with no real soloing. I prefer the simplicity of the '79 versions or the extended 1982-83 versions. Most of these tunes were better in earlier or later tours IMHO. The only highlight from this tour was Skateaway. More an interesting tour than a great tour for me.
Totally agree and well put. They were totally overpowering and Mark seems drunk on almost all I saw from this era..
Lots of energy can be good at times and nowadays I wish he would put some more into "showing off", but at those days most of it was musically very ambitious but just ... too much.
LE
I think it all goes down to: do you appreciate keyboard addition to songs that weren't not meant for keyboards in the first place ?
I have mixed feelings about this.
On the one hand, keyboards in the OL tour sounded really crude. They sounded much better latter in the LOG tour; in the BIA tour they sounded too much, overused at any rate. In the OES tour they were almost absent, burried in Paul Franklin's pedal steel guitar which was taken way too much space.
Also, we can argue that simple, raw 4-piece songs were much better and cleaner in the orignal form. Mark ended getting rid of keyboards and sax on Sultans after all.
On the other hand, some songs were really enhanced in the OL tour in a way that my ears like, but some were just butchered. If I take them one by one:
- News: best example of sucessful transformation. The song sound so much better with Hammond organ and progression chords. So epic, so emotional ! On the album it sounds dull and try in comparaison. Rockpalast'79 is a bit better because a bit more dynamic, I like it, but still, so much emotion in '81 were the song was dedicated to John Lennon (and later to Bob Marley).
- Lions: ok I agree with dmg that the end solo is going nowhere and was better raw in 78/79; but the change of rythm, making it more dynamic, is awesome.
- WDYTYG: I hate the keyboards additions (so crude) and the end solo is slower than in 79, which I don't like, *BUT* they are a pretext to introduce a "crying" mid solo, which is awesome. So I love it :)
- DTTW: I don't like 80 versions, I think the keyboards are a poor subsitute to David's guitar groove. Hal's guitar is no match to David's, the song sounds duller witout him. Still, the very last versions (last 2 weeks of tour) added a piano solo towards the end which revitalize it - great !
- Angel of Mercy: totally reworked song with Piano, I love it ! so different.
- Single Handed Sailor and In the Gallery: the ones I don't like, totally out of place, the songs are ruined, I understand why they were dropped after this.
- Portobelle Belle: just a more rocking version than the album, but less touching than the reworked version of 82/83. Hal's guitar is just out of place.
- Wild West End: some piano but not extraordinary. I prefer the original...
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I prefer the Boston '80 concert from this era, however it's not my favourite era. I think a lot of the experimental exercises didn't really work out too well, especially in Lions which just sounded awful. On and on with no direction whatsoever becoming louder and more boring with it. TOL nearly always went out of tune at the end! OUATItW was just average with no real soloing. I prefer the simplicity of the '79 versions or the extended 1982-83 versions. Most of these tunes were better in earlier or later tours IMHO. The only highlight from this tour was Skateaway. More an interesting tour than a great tour for me.
Totally agree and well put. They were totally overpowering and Mark seems drunk on almost all I saw from this era..
Lots of energy can be good at times and nowadays I wish he would put some more into "showing off", but at those days most of it was musically very ambitious but just ... too much.
LE
I think it all goes down to: do you appreciate keyboard addition to songs that weren't not meant for keyboards in the first place ?
I have mixed feelings about this.
On the one hand, keyboards in the OL tour sounded really crude. They sounded much better latter in the LOG tour; in the BIA tour they sounded too much, overused at any rate. In the OES tour they were almost absent, burried in Paul Franklin's pedal steel guitar which was taken way too much space.
Also, we can argue that simple, raw 4-piece songs were much better and cleaner in the orignal form. Mark ended getting rid of keyboards and sax on Sultans after all.
On the other hand, some songs were really enhanced in the OL tour in a way that my ears like, but some were just butchered. If I take them one by one:
- News: best example of sucessful transformation. The song sound so much better with Hammond organ and progression chords. So epic, so emotional ! On the album it sounds dull and try in comparaison. Rockpalast'79 is a bit better because a bit more dynamic, I like it, but still, so much emotion in '81 were the song was dedicated to John Lennon (and later to Bob Marley).
- Lions: ok I agree with dmg that the end solo is going nowhere and was better raw in 78/79; but the change of rythm, making it more dynamic, is awesome.
- WDYTYG: I hate the keyboards additions (so crude) and the end solo is slower than in 79, which I don't like, *BUT* they are a pretext to introduce a "crying" mid solo, which is awesome. So I love it :)
- DTTW: I don't like 80 versions, I think the keyboards are a poor subsitute to David's guitar groove. Hal's guitar is no match to David's, the song sounds duller witout him. Still, the very last versions (last 2 weeks of tour) added a piano solo towards the end which revitalize it - great !
- Angel of Mercy: totally reworked song with Piano, I love it ! so different.
- Single Handed Sailor and In the Gallery: the ones I don't like, totally out of place, the songs are ruined, I understand why they were dropped after this.
- Portobelle Belle: just a more rocking version than the album, but less touching than the reworked version of 82/83. Hal's guitar is just out of place.
- Wild West End: some piano but not extraordinary. I prefer the original...
I agree with almost everything that was said here, I have the mixed feelings about it.
100% of acrodo with (- DTTW: I do not like 80 versions, I think the keyboards are a poor subsitute to David's guitar groove. Hal's guitar is no match for David's, the song sounds duller witout him. versions (last 2 weeks of tour) added a piano solo towards the end which revitalize it - great!
- Angel of Mercy: totally reworked song with Piano, I love it! so different.)
I find the piano sound very nice in the Lions version of the Boston bootleg 80, just at the moment after MK sings "I'm thinking about Lions ...", to feel the Alan chord with a lot of presence, something more common in 81, since the hammond organ were more exploited in 80.
One thing I've always noticed is about Knopfler's voice on this tour, it sounds different from every other tour, just repair Rockpalast 79 and Dortmund, Boston 79 or Werchter Festival 81. LOG tour and BIA tour the voice sounds the same, I will not compare with the voice in the OES tour, since they are 5 years that separate. Anyway, it's just a little detail I usually watch.
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Actually for Lions I think I too prefer 80 to 81 versions.
In 80 you have a direct jump from DTTW to Lions, with a great continuity between the two.
In 81 Mark added a soft intro, starting with "church bells" sound FX, probably to echo to the lyrics, and continuing with a short and soft keyboard version of the main theme. Not sure if this is useful, that breaks the rythm; also, in 81 the guitar is softer, as if Mark had remorses to have shaken the song so much, and wanted to back to 79 style. A bit strange...
Dortmund video of DDTW/Lions link is perfect to my taste.
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That tour is like the missing link between DS the promise and DS the stars...
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Totally agree and well put. They were totally overpowering and Mark seems drunk on almost all I saw from this era..
LE
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Hmm I haven't recognised in any video of DS that MK was drunk during performances. Maybe I'm too blue-eyed. I like to see where did you find this.
Thanks
Thomas
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Totally agree and well put. They were totally overpowering and Mark seems drunk on almost all I saw from this era..
LE
Hmm I haven't recognised in any video of DS that MK was drunk during performances. Maybe I'm too blue-eyed. I like to see where did you find this.
Thanks
Thomas
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Pure speculation of course but there's a particular audio bootleg (I'm sure someone will chime in with the location I can't quite remember) Where mark is slurring and seems pretty drunk, They play a disco jam from memory.
The tour is an interesting one very experimental and as lots have said sort of like the "missing link" between the old and new DS. One thing is for sure they definitely had it perfected by the time alchemy came out!
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When was the first time they played the SOS changed outro? The extended live versions
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When was the first time they played the SOS changed outro? The extended live versions
at the end of 79, the outro solo was longer than in 78-79, but without slow pace
at the start of the 80-81 tour, they played the extended outro with the slow pace