A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: herlock on May 18, 2010, 09:07:37 PM
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As for me, my answer is: PF - no, CW - yes.
Feel that the pedal steel guitar was a bit too much, but that the Sax gave a fantastic touch, that I don't think to be outdated, 80s old-fashioned, as MK and the band seem to think nowadays...
Violin is a very nice addition. As for flute... sometimes I think there is a bit too much of it.
What do you think ?
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For me vice versa! Chris White is hopeless 80's "careless whisper" sound for me. Not him personally, it is the instrument that is not for me.
Paul Franklin added some of the best things to MK's music. Would love to hear him on a new MK album any time!
LE
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Chris White > really good, really great
but one of my biggest wishes: Paul Franklin ..... :D 10 points out of 10
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In short, no. I don't miss any of them. I thought Chris added the most when he played the flute. The sax was just in your face all the time with its cheesy sound.
PF is obviously a great player but I prefer Mark or a rock guitarist playing. In that regard, I think that the present folk thing is much more interesting.
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Well, PF was a fabulous addition to the band but as you say, I have to agree he was overused. I would still like him there though if only so they could play OES but to put a pedal steel on MFN and such songs is just plain wrong IMO. Also, Calling Elvis was never the same without him so there are plenty of songs that would benefit from having him in the band but keep it real!
I think this overuse of "guests" is something that runs in Mark's music; just pay attention to the KtGC tour and you'll find overuse of JMcC and his cittern popping up on just about every song where it's not wanted just so that he's kept busy. ::)
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For me vice versa! Chris White is hopeless 80's "careless whisper" sound for me. Not him personally, it is the instrument that is not for me.
Well... I just listened again to SoS, 1-Alchemy version (on BR, sounds great) and 2-Wembley'85, and while I love both, and Alchemy's one has the edge on the energy level (at least at the beginning), I have to say I prefer the later, thanks to the Sax bridge and dialogue towards the end. So moving. Brings emotion to a rock song, almost making it into a prog song :)
Have you heard Roger Waters (another great musician) "On the flesh" concert ? The Sax does not seem outdated to me, just listen to "Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun" or "Money"...
Anyway, matter of taste I guess :) Mark used again Chris for the 2002 charity concerts and on the KTGC album ("In the Sky"), so, I may not think that it is THAT outdated :)
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Well, PF was a fabulous addition to the band but as you say, I have to agree he was overused. I would still like him there though if only so they could play OES but to put a pedal steel on MFN and such songs is just plain wrong IMO. Also, Calling Elvis was never the same without him so there are plenty of songs that would benefit from having him in the band but keep it real!
I think this overuse of "guests" is something that runs in Mark's music; just pay attention to the KtGC tour and you'll find overuse of JMcC and his cittern popping up on just about every song where it's not wanted just so that he's kept busy. ::)
I totally agree with you, DMG! PF is fantastic on CE and OES, but putting pedal steel on songs like Brothers in Arms or Telegraph Road is heresy to me...
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I do miss Chris White. Sultans is far away better whith him.
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You and your friend would not exist without PF, I am sure. I think he inspired the music for that song. Also The Bug, which is a very underrated great song, benefits from PF. I like In The Sky, and Chris is great on it, which means he doesn't play like Michael Bolton. (I WILL get Slavi going ballistic... he he :lol )
LE
Blimey, this thread made me wanting to listen to On Every Street again tonight! Will put it onto my player immediately! Sleep must wait...
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Oh, saxophone on Sultans! Don't remind me, that was just awful... We are talking about the guitar song of guitar songs here, and a sax in the middle of all that was just devastating.
And yeah, PF was definitely overused. It's funny, Mark's second guitarists have normally been underused, whereas additional personnel have often been, as you say, overused. Sort of like being friendly to guests I suppose.
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Oh, saxophone on Sultans! Don't remind me, that was just awful... We are talking about the guitar song of guitar songs here, and a sax in the middle of all that was just devastating.
Don't you think the dialogue between guitar and sax is making the guitar shine ?? Do you feel the same way about the guitar/piano(i/o sax), '96 style ?
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I do miss Chris White. Sultans is far away better whith him.
Here it is... Played last week, Chris White and John Illsley - Sultans of Swing with Sax!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXPUoY2q-k8
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I love the sound of saxophone. I think CW was a great addition to MK. R&J with Chris's sax was like being in heaven. Your latest trick, even SOS. They are all wonderful. CW is my second fav in Mark's band.
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Oh, saxophone on Sultans! Don't remind me, that was just awful... We are talking about the guitar song of guitar songs here, and a sax in the middle of all that was just devastating.
Don't you think the dialogue between guitar and sax is making the guitar shine ?? Do you feel the same way about the guitar/piano(i/o sax), '96 style ?
No, I find the sax distracting. The 'long' Sultans with the piano is a fine arrangement, as long as it's without the sax and as long as the piano part doesn't become too long (sometimes the case in 1996; it became a different song with a different feeling). In that way, it's not wholly about bringing in another instrument, that's true. But Sultans works just fine as a four-piece.
I think Chris White did a good job on, say, the outro on Ride Across the River live. Those fast notes that Mark also played on the guitar... Beautiful!
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No, I find the sax distracting. The 'long' Sultans with the piano is a fine arrangement, as long as it's without the sax and as long as the piano part doesn't become too long (sometimes the case in 1996; it became a different song with a different feeling). In that way, it's not wholly about bringing in another instrument, that's true. But Sultans works just fine as a four-piece.
I think Chris White did a good job on, say, the outro on Ride Across the River live. Those fast notes that Mark also played on the guitar... Beautiful!
I can see your point. Sos RAH 96 (available officially on the SoS compilation bonus disc) is quite fine; the 17''+ from Vaison 96 is nice, very nice, but also very long, somehow breaking the rythm; nonetheless I think the keyboards brings much to it, and I like it less nowadays as a 4 piece - especially that slow... Alchemy should be the good compromise then ?
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I like sax ;D
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Alchemy is fantastic, though there are some unnecessary keyboards too, right? But to hear Chris playing sax while Mark plays the best solo ever, I could never get over that.
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No, I don't miss them. Their contributions to the songs that had a sax / pedal steel in the first place ("You and your Friend", "Your Latest Trick" etc) are fine but those instruments overload all other songs. I HATE the sax on Sultans and Romeo & Juliet (Urrgh! Come on!) and I can't stand Mr. Franklin's wailing pedal steel at the end of "Walk Of Life". Horrible.
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Can't say there's anything wrong with pedal steel on Walk of Life. It's just a fun rock 'n' roll tune. But in TR, Heavy Fuel, BIA, it doesn't fit at all.
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Can't say there's anything wrong with pedal steel on Walk of Life. It's just a fun rock 'n' roll tune. But in TR, Heavy Fuel, BIA, it doesn't fit at all.
I agree. I can't understand why Basel'92 is so many people favourite's version of TR. The version has some great qualities, it is energetic, I love the sax solo (yes, yes), but the pedal steel + the lack of introduction guitar solo makes it far from being my favourite.
As for BiA, same remark, I prefer a lot more the 85/86 or Mandela version: powerful synth, great guitar, and no pedal steel to ruin it. The Montserrat version is nice, but not as powerful IMHO.
As for Heavy Fuel and Walk of Life, I coul'nt care less, they belong to the very small set of MK songs I don't like... overcommercialized ! The same could be said of MfN, but MfN was a milestone in rock history :)
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Alchemy is fantastic, though there are some unnecessary keyboards too, right? But to hear Chris playing sax while Mark plays the best solo ever, I could never get over that.
CW is not playing sax WHILE Mark plays the solo; He WAITS for Mark to finish a "sentence", then replies - hence there is a dialogue, and a pause that makes the song just a bit slower, but also sweeter.
Anyway... I am glad that the Live Aid version was released on a good quality DVD; this makes up for the lack of the song on "On the Night". The Live Aid version is not as good as the Wembley concert one, but close enough to make it a fascinating experience everytime I watch it; in fact, I like the mess on stage on Live Aid, it makes things less formatted, more humain :) these were the days...
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I miss both...Loved Romeo & Juliet when heard it with Chris' sax and I miss the sax on every live version after that...but can listen it without sax ;D ;D ;D Can't imagine my all time fav You and Your Friend without PF...Love SOS with sax but it is OK without it too. Miss CW with MK a lot ( not sure if CW miss DS for a long time).
Well, IMHO we are lucky to have such a great versions of all these songs - SOS with sax or not, with/without pedal steel, with fiddle or not...etc. So many different versions, so many different instruments for all people's tastes. It's wonderful for me.
@herlock, if you like CW sax addition to the DS songs I'm your mate ;D ;D
Have you seen my site about CW?
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I think the sax sometimes sounds a bit cheesy and over the top. SOS or R&J don't need this addition. Certainly some songs wouldn't work without. Saw him with Jon Illsley in Berlin and "Two Young Lovers" was just great.
As for Paul Franklin: "You And Your Friend" is one of my all time favourites - and the pedal steel adds up to the spooky atmosphere of this song. But during the OES tour they obviously didn't want to give Paul a rest and so he ended playing on too many songs. He certainly did a good work but too many cooks...
By the way: Do I miss Jim Cox on keys? Yes, I do!!!
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@herlock, if you like CW sax addition to the DS songs I'm your mate ;D ;D
Have you seen my site about CW?
Very nice site indeed, congrats ! :)
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i like both. yes, the outro on Ride across the river, always loved that, or the sax on Sultans during the basel show, but my altime favorite chill moment has to be YOu and Your friend on the On the night album...volume on 11!!
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Yeah it is really great. Even better than the album version in my opinion.
LE
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I think the sax sometimes sounds a bit cheesy and over the top. SOS or R&J don't need this addition. Certainly some songs wouldn't work without. Saw him with Jon Illsley in Berlin and "Two Young Lovers" was just great.
As for Paul Franklin: "You And Your Friend" is one of my all time favourites - and the pedal steel adds up to the spooky atmosphere of this song. But during the OES tour they obviously didn't want to give Paul a rest and so he ended playing on too many songs. He certainly did a good work but too many cooks...
By the way: Do I miss Jim Cox on keys? Yes, I do!!!
Sorry but Mr. Cox is one gentleman I certainly do not miss at all. He was in my opinion a jazz musician and although very talented he didn't suit Mark's music at all and over elaborated with his piano especially on the break in Sultans. This always has me reaching for the fast forward button!
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Sorry but Mr. Cox is one gentleman I certainly do not miss at all. He was in my opinion a jazz musician and although very talented he didn't suit Mark's music at all and over elaborated with his piano especially on the break in Sultans. This always has me reaching for the fast forward button!
Strange how feelings can differ among fans... For me, Sultans '96 versions are among the very best (I can't decide between these and the BiA tour, such as Live Aid), ESPECIALLY because of the piano break which sounds almost as beautiful, if not better, than the sax. Can't understand those who prefer Sultans as a bare-bone 4-piece, although I totally respect this opinion of course... :)
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Alchemy is fantastic, though there are some unnecessary keyboards too, right? But to hear Chris playing sax while Mark plays the best solo ever, I could never get over that.
CW is not playing sax WHILE Mark plays the solo; He WAITS for Mark to finish a "sentence", then replies - hence there is a dialogue, and a pause that makes the song just a bit slower, but also sweeter.
Anyway... I am glad that the Live Aid version was released on a good quality DVD; this makes up for the lack of the song on "On the Night". The Live Aid version is not as good as the Wembley concert one, but close enough to make it a fascinating experience everytime I watch it; in fact, I like the mess on stage on Live Aid, it makes things less formatted, more humain :) these were the days...
Well, there is a dialogue though that helps little. It's still unnecessary. But, he also plays simultaneously as Mark, e.g. during the twiddly bits. Unforgivable.
You and Your Friend is fantastic on On the Night.
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I love SOS with the piano solo part. To me it's the ultimately divine piece of music that my ears ever have the priviledge of listening to. Every time I hear it , I swear my heart just melts into a million nano pieces. I love it to death do me part really. And when CW came in with his sax, that too is heaven.
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Slavi,
I know you're a huge CW fan. CW is my second fav after Mark. I've checked out your site before. Do you mind post the link here again.
I believed I tried to look for his CD, but I couldn't find it. Can you pls help ?
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Slavi,
I know you're a huge CW fan. CW is my second fav after Mark. I've checked out your site before. Do you mind post the link here again.
I believed I tried to look for his CD, but I couldn't find it. Can you pls help ?
Shadowdance was the name wasn't it. CD and record fayres were always the best source but since the advent of torrent sites I haven't been to one in years.
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Slavi,
I know you're a huge CW fan. CW is my second fav after Mark. I've checked out your site before. Do you mind post the link here again.
I believed I tried to look for his CD, but I couldn't find it. Can you pls help ?
His new CD is not ready yet. He had to finish some other jobs and things and they are almost done. Hope he will find some free time after that to make his own new record. ( he promissed! ;D ;D )
Shadowdance is great CD but old...It could be found somewhere in Internet as second hand.
BTW THERE IS ANOTHER great Chris' CD called SaxTrax but it was not for selling but set as CD Library for movies. Fortunately Chris had an extra copy and give it to me like a present. Loved it for the firts listening. Some pieces could be heard on the Home Page of my site here:
http://www.chriswhite-saxophone.com/
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I very much liked Chris White's contributions.
For the most part, I can't stand pedal steel guitar, though its use in MK's music wasn't so bad. I'm pretty much glad that it's gone, though.