A Mark In Time
General Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Fletch on November 11, 2011, 08:34:31 PM
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Europeans, are you concerned?
My understanding is you have some key countries, Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland (please name more) that have been spending far more than they earn for a long time. They no longer can service their debt and when asked by creditors to reign in spending (which obviously means a much lower standard of living for the average citizen) there are massive political problems, leading, unfortunately to riots.
I don't know if the powerful economy of Germany is strong enough to bail all the debts, but obviously they don't want to if the same countries don't reform and make the same mistakes.
So.... If the markets crash (they are!) and investment is pulled from Europe in the short to medium term, there may be extreme social implications.
How do you feel?
Id be Stocking up a few cans of food and know how to defend my family.
Edit - italics
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I am not sure that this is the right place for this type of discussion.
Very complex indeed. If Europe sink, the world econonomy sink with them because everybody is trading with everybody and need somebody able to buy your production...
Rule is as simple as that : everybody needs to stay afloat.
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Why can we not discuss this? There are many Europeans on this site, I'm interested in how you feel and your point of view.
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I think it is totally legitimate to bring up this complex theme in the right section, as "General Discussion". It is just a sign how informed, intelligent and interested AMIT people are. But as ds1984 said, it is very complex, and very tiring, too. I am from Germany, and I know of course about the special role that Germany has in this "game" (or "gamble"), but to be honest: After reading/hearing/listening almost every day to this in the News/Newspaper/internet/train/lunch break and so on, I for my part get the crisis myself when this theme comes up. I know I shouldn't, because it is obviously the most important issue that affects Europe since WW2, but I can't help myself. I am working, every day, every week, trying to get a life and see that it is a quite humble, modest one, not more. But I am happy with it and don't want to complain. Do I fear the future when it comes to things like retirement, money, wealth? Yes I do. But I try not to get dragged down by this and keep up good spirit and working. The only thing I know is for sure that I am looking for an oasis of bliss and relaxation occasionally, and this forum is for sure the best possible object for this claim. So I feel a little uneasy discussing this matter at this place, mainly because it was long ago that I lost understanding about all the details and issues of the financial crisis.
So, Fletch, please feel free to discuss this matter here, but I will draw back from this. Not that I could add something of valuable content...
LE
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LE, eloquently put, understandable and ultimately, as I said, I really am interested in how you feel over there.
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Like a man who smokes heavily for 40, 50 years and reads about lung cancer... You know the disaster must break down in the nearer future, but you close your eyes and deny the truth. (No, I am not (and have never been) a smoker. 8) ). Helplessness. When I hear about those amounts of money, milliards, billions, whatever, I think the right proportions and dimensions got lost a long time ago. The same goes for things in the other direction, when the poor ones are not able to bring up enough for living, and some bank people just... gamble. But you see that in the way I mix up bank and financial crisis and the European crisis, it all starts to get diffuse...
Another fact is that I never had too much confidence in our German chancellor Mrs. Merkel, but after all I know she did rather well the last weeks.
So what I try to describe here is helplessness, turbulence and fear to a certain extent when it comes to the nearer future. But "after 2000 came 2001...."
So the world did not collide, and thing were going on. Let's hope it will turn out the right way this time again!
LE
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How do I feel?
Enjoy today, tomorrow will be worse!
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this place is perfectly ok to discuss this topic.
i sit back and look at it all...
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Fletch, I was about to start a similar topic myself (I have done so in a book forum a year ago), but I was rather intimidated since many people, think that Greece is the guilty party, and since I am Greek, that might seem peculiar, like the best defense is offense. Anyway, I can only write here what I know or understand, and I can also tell you that more and more people feel the same way each passing day.
OK, let's take things from the very beginning. In case you have any questions I will be very happy to answer. The omission of details and explanation in many cases is done on purpose, since I don't know how much of the history is known and in order to save time. As I said, happy to answer and add info. As a matter of fact I prefer more the targeted questions, since the original question is so general, it requires pages and pages.
In the late 70ies-early 80ies, Greece entered the European Union, from what I have heard for two reasons: as a favor and out of guilt. In a today's logic, that everything has to be calculated and profit made, this sounds irrational, so for those believing in conspiracy theories, a third reason can be added, PROFIT.
Thirty years later, Greece is the first nation in Europe to be forced by the other members to seek funds through IMF. This is weird, since the EU, had the necessary funds and ways to solve the problem at once without outside help before the spreads for the 10 years bonds skyrocket. Two years after, and they still blame Greece for not agreeing to the new colony-like treaties they are forcing the government to sign. The debt two years ago was half of what we owe now, and now they promise us a 50% haircut! It is a bank trick, as it is plain to see. The same stands for the rest of the countries in trouble, that the stock market has named PIIGS. (Portugal, Ireland -I added Italy, Greece, Spain)
The people of the PIIGS are not to blame, at least not entirely. At a consumers world, all western countries consume more and more and the only thing that keeps Germany and France afloat, is the simple fact that they are the biggest countries of Europe, with the biggest industries and ways to force their will to the smaller countries. They sold technology, pharmaceuticals and many other products in high prices, while their governments agreed in lending the money to these countries willing to buy, turning the blind eye. At the same time they voted laws that completely ruined the infrastructures of smaller countries, introducing the laws of an international market without limits, thus making all local business to expensive to keep. The same goes for the USA, only the USA has also the military power to enforce their will.
But wait a minute. How can some countries that actually regulate the things in the whole world and Europe, allow their banks to buy bonds from the same countries in order to profit and when this doesn't work, try to bail out the banks? I mean the spreads are way too high because there is danger in buying them. If you are willing to take the risk, you should expect to lose. And if you lose you should not force your will through your powerful government. It sounds weird, isn't it? But let's see a simple fact. While all this lack of immediate actions from the EU skyrocketed the spreads of PIIGS bonds, and the greedy banks made a fortune overnight, the IMF was called in and a series of treaties were signed. Apart from all these treaties being bad, leading all the countries that signed them (without asking their people) into worse trouble, Greece (that I know of) is forced to receive help only from them. Which is weird because we could ask from the Chinese or the Russians, that were eager to help in exchange of the use of ports and airports. So it is a power play among the countries of the world. The prime minister Papandreou, was rather USA inclined. Anyway, while we sustained substantial pay cuts, pension cuts, health care cuts and unemployment skyrocketed, with their blessing, they (mainly Germany and France and less USA) still FORCE us to sign new deals to buy WEAPONS, worth more that 4 billion Euros. The interest we have to pay for the loans in 2011 are 6 million Euros. So actually they lend us money to buy their toys. And in case we don't?
Back in the 80ies the EU was more of and named European monetary union. But with the new EU treaties and the passing of a European constitution which is actually stronger that the constitution of each country, we are more than a monetary union. Or at least that is what they claim. The trouble in Balkans are constant and although Greece is the only stable country in the region, with the added bonus of being an older EU member with the EURO, they never backed it up, forcing it to buy weapons and other things in form of PROTECTION. Why don't they send army to prevent the Turks from being a constant threat? Maybe because they sell GUNS and technology to them as well, and also because they are a bigger market than Greece? (Turkey 70 million people, expected to reach 100 millions by 2100, while Greece has about 11 millions, that are to become 10 million by 2100. If you are a small nation, with enemies all around, you are bound to be the victim of a constant blackmail. Greece owes 300 Billion Euros, Italy 1,9 Trillion Euros and the USA 15 Trillion Dollars. Do the math and you will understand that Greece just is the test lab for the new type of economical colonization, that if it works will be forced to the rest of the world.
That is all in a nutshell.
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Thanks for the detailed thoughts from a person 'on the ground' so to speak.
If questions are ok, I'd like to ask, why would Germany and France want Greece to fail if they are the ones using their budget to patch up each market crisis? Is it about keeping the status quo and denying help from elsewhere as you have suggested?
If your thoughts are accurate in the bigger picture, who are the players, banks or governments?
You are right about the US, in my opinion. Because they have the most amazingly potent Navy and of course nuclear arsenal, their own failure, economically, is distorted. However it seems riots will happen anywhere the common man is asked to lower his standard of living.
Thanks for discussing this mate, I appreciate it!
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If it helps, my Australian perspective (although I grew up in the UK), is that catastrophe in Europe leads to less exports from Asia. China buy enormous amounts of resources from our mines and this was a key factor in keeping us relatively safe during the GFC, when markets crashed. Our unemployment is quite low and in Western Australia there is much well paid skilled work available.
So because we are all linked in the global market, we all face change. I have a feeling things will become more radical if the Chinese ever overthrow their government and demand higher wages, which would be moral really. There will then be a huge adjustment in markets and western world standard of living.
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germany and france do NOT want greece to fail, got way too much bank money in that country,..especially commerzbank, BNP paribas etc..
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Yes, and that bank money is the money that belongs to
a) the ultra-rich whose income consists of accumulated interest generated out of their huge wealth
b) normal people who are made to believe that they should invest in life insurances in order to provide for their retirement
In my view the recent, since 2008 ongoing crisis had been started ~ 20 years ago. To cut a long story short, I suppose that unequal ownership conditions is the germ cell.
In order to develop the necessary competitive ability - as the embraced and equalized "free" press told us - the neoliberal capitalism brought us gigantic growth in the low-wage sector of the economy. All that came hand in hand with cuts in government spending, one aspect is that people can be forced to accept any job if they are unemployed. Health insurance funds and public pension funds are being plundered.
A change to service economy has been announced, producing fulltime-jobs with wages so low, that these people have to apply for basic social care whilst working fulltime. Another point is the ongoing triumphal procession of contingent work: people can be rented by business companies, of course the prospects are quite bad, just as the wages are. They are the modern day-taler in my humble opinion.
Businesses have been benefiting from substantial cuts when it comes to taxation (f.e.: corporate income tax in 2000: 40%; in 2011: 15%), the same applies for people who are able to live off their working capital (f.e.: income tax on salaries: up to 48%; income tax on returns on interest: 25% [interest barrier]).
We, the people did not live beyond our means! It is the ongoing maldistribution that is responsible for all this.
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I think it is totally legitimate to bring up this complex theme in the right section, as "General Discussion". It is just a sign how informed, intelligent and interested AMIT people are. But as ds1984 said, it is very complex, and very tiring, too. I am from Germany, and I know of course about the special role that Germany has in this "game" (or "gamble"), but to be honest: After reading/hearing/listening almost every day to this in the News/Newspaper/internet/train/lunch break and so on, I for my part get the crisis myself when this theme comes up. I know I shouldn't, because it is obviously the most important issue that affects Europe since WW2, but I can't help myself. I am working, every day, every week, trying to get a life and see that it is a quite humble, modest one, not more. But I am happy with it and don't want to complain. Do I fear the future when it comes to things like retirement, money, wealth? Yes I do. But I try not to get dragged down by this and keep up good spirit and working. The only thing I know is for sure that I am looking for an oasis of bliss and relaxation occasionally, and this forum is for sure the best possible object for this claim. So I feel a little uneasy discussing this matter at this place, mainly because it was long ago that I lost understanding about all the details and issues of the financial crisis.
So, Fletch, please feel free to discuss this matter here, but I will draw back from this. Not that I could add something of valuable content...
LE
Oh yes, I do see this forum as some kind of escapism, too. It is a little corner of the interwebs that I don't want to miss.
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As I was trying to send my reply to Fletch, Justme sent his own reply. If you have no time reading a long reply, read the one by Justme. I totally agree.
Why would Germany and France want Greece to fail if they are the ones using their budget to patch up each market crisis? Is it about keeping the status quo and denying help from elsewhere as you have suggested?
First of all, we have to define fail. Then clarify what we mean when we say Germany or France and even Greece.
Failure to all three, means the inability of Greece to pay back the money owed. In turn for each country that means several different things.
For Greece it will mean that since we don't have cash and nobody will trust us with more money, almost automatically, we will have to release our own currency. Unfortunately the stock market of the worlds will be the ones to set the exchange rate, so in the end we will only be able to use it for domestic purposes. Unfortunately we don't produce enough oil to cover our needs for either vehicles or heating purposes. And the same goes for medicines. Also food will become a bit hard to find, but if there is careful planning, nobody will die of hunger. And of course we are not talking about the 10% of people that got filthy rich the last 30 years, that own big business and media. We are talking about the majority. And to top all this, our savings will be lost in a wink. The banks will collapse since they hold a great deal of the bonds.
For Germany, it will mean that since their banks were wise enough to turn in the bulk of the bonds with the aid of the German government, stalling for two years when there were many solutions to stabilize the entire EU , during these two years, the cost of rescuing Greece will fall on the shoulders of the poor tax payers, in the form of the German contribution in the EU supporting fund.
For France it is a bit harder because apart from the contribution in the EU supporting fund, their banks have a great deal of Greece's bonds. That might ruin the credibility of France to borrow money, and what this means is clear, no need to elaborate.
But then you have to think that Greece has a relatively small debt, compared with Italy. 1,9 trillion will surely be hard to find, if Italy falls victim like Greece. EU fund is not ready to cover such amounts.
Now let's see what we mean when we say Greece, France and Germany. In simple words, all countries have two faces. The face of their wealthy people which usually account for less than the 10% of the population, but have more than 80% of the wealth and then they are the rest that are called to pay for the damages when the system fails. The system is easy enough to understand but complex enough to be able to get rid of. Banks are part of the system, and for least the past 50 years people thought of them as the system itself, just because it was easier for greedy people to own a bank and do the business directly. And at the same time having a newspaper, a TV channel and radio stations were helpful in order to influence people's mind, casting new ideas, ethics and in fact control minds. The final frontier is always a fabricated hatred among nations. The second world war had its origins at the terrible war compensations that were asked from Germany. The Germans are proud people, and the inflation and unemployment was so great after the WWI, that Hitler seemed a good idea. Giving jobs to everybody and giving back to the Germans their lost self esteem and promising old glories in a post colonization world. Unfortunately many other factors, like corruption of power, mental issues, the general state in Europe with at least 5 countries under dictatorships - fascism, and the stupidity of the countries that were the keepers of peace to understand that you can't have peace in such a bleak environment when proud people suffer or made to suffer.
But I think I am getting a bit obscure here, so a bit of a parenthesis. Money is nothing but a trading tool, it has no value on its own. Pieces of paper, or numbers on our screen. In order to have any kind of value, at least one person have to believe in the value. The seller. So I am willing to buy from you oil, but you don't believe that my money is any good. You won't sell. But what makes money some currencies better accepted than others? A belief. A belief of stability. US dollar used to be the strongest currency in the world. Even today that its reign is somehow lost to Euro, oil is still linked to dollar. The sense of stability comes from the fact that US is a mighty strong country, but it has become apparent the last 3 years, that the continuous issuing of new dollar bills is not backed up by anything valuable or productive. Now it is becoming clear to many people, that money (and gold for that matter) should never have become values on their own. But it is too late. People in many parts of the world die of hunger, not because there is not enough food, but because they can't afford it! They prefer to stock the crops in warehouses or destroy it, in order to keep the price up, instead of giving it away! Also something else: with the new technology only the 20% of the working force in the planet is needed in order to do all available work. So does this mean that the rest will have to accept their fate, and die of hunger, since they won't be having any money? It is very strange that simple ethics like that (only the men that work deserve to be fed) are unburied by the greedy people in order to justify the way things are going. They have turn food in stocks and they play with them in the stock market, while people die of hunger.
Maybe it is time a new set of ethics, beliefs and values are set. I find that communism failed because it was a forced system, a dictator ship in all but name, while capitalism keeps going because it feeds from the flesh of the poor dreaming that they will make it some day. But surely there is a way between, and new technologies should have made this passing easier, but alas...
So, they don't want Greece to fail, and if there is no other option they will try to do it on heir own terms. It is clear that you get nothing out of a dead donkey.You have to keep it working with less and less. But since the fraudulent tower of believing in money as a value on its own collapses rapidly, the greedy people will try to exchange the money with other values that have deeper roots in the history of man, like land. Greedy people may be eponymous to anonymous, but it doesn't make a difference. Also it doesn't make much difference if what I call greed comes from a peculiar mental obsession, a game if you like to gather more and more when you don't need so much, or it actually comes from a desire to gain control over people for purposes too far fetched to even consider or mention.
Now I guess you have heard of the new "deals"Greece has signed with EU and IMF (and here I mean the politicians that rule Greece in a not so democratic way). The average Greek lost most of his savings in the last couple of years, and at the same time the value of the land and housing is dropping, but apparently not fast enough. Obama, rescued the banks that had many housing loans for exactly the same reason. The average American has only one asset. His house. If Obama hadn't saved these banks, the housing industry would have collapsed. You would be able to buy a house for a thousand dollars! And the common American would have bought a house a couple of years ago and have a mortgage to pay for 300,000 dollars, and an asset worth 1000 dollars! The bank will demand 300,000 dollars and the poor guy won't be able to have anything of value (even if he had a spare 1000 dollars to buy another house, in fear of a personal bankruptcy!) Greeks population was living in almost a 50% in the countryside, and nearly 30% made their living as farmers. All that until the 80ies. The EU, and that means mostly the bigger counties that could pass more laws since they had more representatives, decided that Greece's farmers should be reduced in less than 15%. They gave money to reduce some traditional farming products and never let the market regulate the supply and demand. And that was pretty weird if you ever consider that they also tried to break the monopoly of public companies (like the electric company) when it was obvious that the price for electricity was the cheaper available, because it was public and the factor of profit and greed wasn't getting in the way (remember the USA west coast blackouts created by Enron?) So this is the next question.
If your thoughts are accurate in the bigger picture, who are the players, banks or governments?
Governments and banks are nothing but tools in the hands of the greedy people. The way they behave is pointing to this direction, and the only thing that do not allow us to be exact, is the lack of evidence admissible to a court. Which by the way is totally corrupt, on its own, anyway. But the intent is there, the motive is there and the way things are going, the victim will be there as well, and it won't be just Greece.
Sorry for the long and in several points confusing answer. It is hard to set the foundations of thoughts in a few words, in order to give clear answers. But by all means you are welcome to ask anything.
As for the Chinese, it is a hard nut to break. I mean, that the tradition of China is deeply rooted in the people, and that is why, even though the mighty USSR collapsed, China insists being a communist country (even in nothing but name and slave wages). That is why they try to spend their cash, investing and buying all over the world, because they fear that in a little while money will have no value whatsoever. They still produce like crazy, when sales and exports have generally decreased. They produce cheap products, but nobody has the money to buy. Economists don't have a definite answer for that. China stores all these products, for the time being, but eventually they will have to come up with a solution. Either pay their people more money in order to be able to afford the products of their own hands, or well that is the case, or what?
And please remember, although I spent a great deal of time writing this, I still believe that the number one issue for all people is ECOLOGY. What good is economy, if we turn earth into a desert?
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Vgonis, your reply is fascinating and insightful. I'm probably going to read it a few times.
Initial thoughts that spring to my mind though -
I agree that "money" and the markets are all perceived values that ebb and flow by speculation, often by blood thirsty power players. To back that up as an example, Britain did not pull out of the Suez canal due to military weakness but rather due to a run on The Bank Of England. So it can work two ways, politics can be used to obtain wealth and wealth can be used for political ideology. (the rightness or wrongness of the British in the Suez I'm not going to discuss)
In Australia we are spending the national savings on a vast optical fibre Internet cable to EVERY HOME!!! My concern in this current world situation of ebbing markets, is that no matter how much I love my iPhone, it cannot produce a loaf of bread or a glass of milk. I wish we were behaving more like China and investing in stuff that is more depression proof.
Ok that was a slight digression from the European situation. I really hope things equalize peacefully, because greed or no greed, we are happiest when we are not worrying about the future. "Do unto others..."
Great to discuss these events with insightful citizens of the world, thank you.
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Excellent post, VGONIS2002, thank you. I do agree with you on all points.
In an earlier post you said " If you are a small nation, with enemies all around, you are bound to be the victim of a constant blackmail. Greece owes 300 Billion Euros, Italy 1,9 Trillion Euros and the USA 15 Trillion Dollars. Do the math and you will understand that Greece just is the test lab for the new type of economical colonization, that if it works will be forced to the rest of the world.
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This is a very good summary in my view.
At the moment I am beginning to delve into an alternative economic theory called "Debitismus", developed by Gunnar Heinsohn, Otto Steiger and Paul Martin. One of the key theories is that everything in our world is based on debts - and without gathering more and more debts our system will collapse (what happens now) in the end. A final collapse is inevitable because of the accumulating debt burden. Over time it becomes harder and harder to find additional debtors. At this point I do think of the "optical fibre Internet cable to EVERY HOME" as mentioned by Fletch in the post before.
The horrible two world wars restarted the economical system in the past, they meant some kind of a "financial haircut" or restart.
A system error in our economy, as the "Debitismus" explains, is the creation of money by means of a two-tiered banking system consisting of central reserve banks (the only institution that can give out cash aka authorised medium of circulation) and commercial banks, who can create deposit money as mere numbers in your account.
This is all very theoretical and complicated and I am just starting to explore this theory.
You may get a glimpse here: http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debitismus
There is also a Dissertation about the "Debitismus" to be found in the net, but I don't know the whole work yet: http://personer.samf.aau.dk/charlotte-bruun/downloads/working-papers/
But in the end it's all about the people, isn't it? I'm getting very angry about all this and at the same time more and more worried.
To end this post on a more positive note, I may conclude that it is time for me to reflect and change and to move away from the sacred cow that is money: it is time to invest in a circle of friends and not in government bonds or flat screens. The recent commercialism leads only to a further exhaustion of our planet.
By the way, another insightful journey into todays economical madness is to be found here: www.cityboy.biz
All the best!
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Justme, it seems that political developments, are way ahead of us. Even though I never liked Papandreou or Berlouskoni, the way they forced the parliaments of two (even just in name) democratic countries to accept new prime ministers that were not voted by the people, is a terrible sign of the evasiveness, similar to dictatorship, that EU should never have allowed, especially when it is done for money. As I already wrote, there were several other ways to deal with the profiteers that "attacked" Greece, Italy, Ireland, Spain and Portugal raising the cost of loaning in terrible heights. But now I think that all this was nothing but a Trojan horse. When they congratulate you for the change in government, it is scary. The new prime ministers are both economists-bankers, with credentials from the very banks - institutions (IMF, EU bank) that congratulate us. Economics is not a precise science. And yet the only solid thing in economics, HISTORY, is never taken into account by the economists. Plus, most of the modern leaders-politicians in Greece have studied in USA. I tend to think that even if they mean well, when they come back to join the political parties they belong (!!!) their minds are altered by the theories they are taught. Actually, they have become ambassadors of this school of thought, that is spreading like a disease in Europe.
Anyway, in sociology, this reset/restart button of the two great WW, was noted and what's more they consider that the smaller wars around the world for the past 70 years, actually do the same thing only in small doses so that people won't complain. At the same time the cities grew larger and larger, and that actually meant that people were distanced from the land and the ways to obtain the necessary things (food) to cover their needs. In a way we are comfortably imprisoned in the walls of big cities, free to elect our guards, while at the same time we recognize that even for our smaller need we have to turn to them.
Thank you for the links, I will look into the sites you suggest.
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My thoughts on Europe:
The Final Countdown was their high watermark.
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one and only. but boy what a song..
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Yes, but the album before that "wings of tomorrow" was great even if it was harder, or maybe because of that. And their first album had it's moments. John Norum's instrumentals on each album were my favourites!
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"Italy's economy is hampered by high wage costs, low productivity, fat government payrolls, excessive taxes, choking bureaucracy, and an educational system that produces one of the lowest levels of college graduates among rich countries."
It is a carbon-copy of what they used to say about Greece! If you dare analyze this:
high wage costs, mean pay/pension cuts, new taxes
low productivity: (this is a joke!) lay offs, more working hours, lower wages
fat government payrolls: actually no matter how much you cut them, they will still be too much
excessive taxes: that always mean business taxation. People will feel the new taxes up their alley
Choking bureaucracy: this is the double edged knife. You hate it, yet it is necessary (in different form and volume) for a country with big national businesses and treasures
Educational system: the spine of a society and offspring for the future generations. They have ruined it so completely that any chance for revival is a leap in the abyss
What I really don't understand, is why they keep saying that the public services are not efficient and PROFITABLE. I do get the not efficient part, but I don't get the profit side. The state should profit from the citizens - taxpayers? Is it a business or a service? And the taxpayers pay dearly for these services. Privatizing everything has already proven a mistake, since health and pensions have to be out of the reach of vultures. See the USA example.
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What I really don't understand, is why they keep saying that the public services are not efficient and PROFITABLE. I do get the not efficient part, but I don't get the profit side. The state should profit from the citizens - taxpayers? Is it a business or a service? And the taxpayers pay dearly for these services. Privatizing everything has already proven a mistake, since health and pensions have to be out of the reach of vultures. See the USA example.
It's a no brainer that when essential services are privatised then their Boards are obliged to increase profit for their shareholders every year. So yes, a government owned service can be profitable and therefore attractive to private investment.
One major failing of capitalism is that it's not okay to make a billion in profit and then do the same the next year. The share price falls - stupid really, but I don't know of a solution to this because it's based on competition for investment. Maybe there should be more emphasis placed on Boards and CEOs delivering dividends rather than a share price focus? Or maybe it is like this already, I don't know?
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What I really don't understand, is why they keep saying that the public services are not efficient and PROFITABLE. I do get the not efficient part, but I don't get the profit side. The state should profit from the citizens - taxpayers? Is it a business or a service? And the taxpayers pay dearly for these services. Privatizing everything has already proven a mistake, since health and pensions have to be out of the reach of vultures. See the USA example.
It's a no brainer that when essential services are privatised then their Boards are obliged to increase profit for their shareholders every year. So yes, a government owned service can be profitable and therefore attractive to private investment.
One major failing of capitalism is that it's not okay to make a billion in profit and then do the same the next year. The share price falls - stupid really, but I don't know of a solution to this because it's based on competition for investment. Maybe there should be more emphasis placed on Boards and CEOs delivering dividends rather than a share price focus? Or maybe it is like this already, I don't know?
Fletch you are right on the money!(pan intended) I guess that taxpayers are no fools, but there is certainly a great amount of taxpayers-voters that clearly believe out of ideology, that private services are better, just because they are private. But the taxes give job to many people.
And yes I really don't understand the ever growing profit. I guess the original idea with share holders was totally different, like long term loans to the business in order to flourish, but this idea is lost forever. I was watching yesterday the big fuss with the environmental tax that is passed down under. I believe that it is right to think of the environment, but it was not the right think to do, legislation wise, since they burden the small healthy enterprises with a tremendous cost, without at the same time offering a specific, obtainable solution to the problem. Unfortunately I don't have the whole picture, do you by any chance know about it?
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The idea is a carbon price (tax) on the 500 biggest Australian polluters, measured and payed by the ton. These companies then pass on the cost of course making us all suffer. However, the theory is that companies looking for a competitive edge will invest in ways to minimize the tax and therefore gain more customers and save the planet.
It could be argued that the government should just increase R&D in alternative power themselves but I think the tax will also reduce unnecessary waste from companies that pick up the challenge.
I'm really not altogether sure about the idea or the practicality, and we're certainly not going to be saving the planet! But it might give Aussie companies a competitive advantage when that time comes? One test will be whether thousands of Australians lose their jobs directly because of this over the next two years.
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A really interesting but demanding topic, thanks to all participants so far.
By the way, in the EU exists something similar to the carbon taxation in Australia. It's called "Emissions Trading System (EU ETS)" http://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/ets/index_en.htm ; Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Emission_Trading_Scheme
In Germany some companies got so many emission trading certificates assigned, that it would be more profitable for the companies to sell these certificates than to pursuit their normal businesses. There also had been trades where buyers and sellers are one and the same, but cannot be identified because a third party initiates the trade, so eventually it could be possible to evade taxes.
Another incomprehensible move by the EU is the banishment of conventional light bulbs. These energy saving lamps provide an unnatural light spectrum, cost a lot more and in the end they may harm the environment because of their problematic components such as quicksilver etc. And there is a lot more....
The EU as an idea may be a beautiful utopia but the current implementation is becoming a nightmare for the normal people.
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Well, finding in AMIT, people to talk about such matters is wonderful. The combination of MK and serious world matters is somehow a plus.
I have been talking to many people about these energy matters, trying to form an opinion, and have done some search through the internet, but it looks as though that the interests are strong and conflicting, because I get all sorts of contradictory opinions. Of course some things are plain to see. Nuclear power is the worst way to produce energy. Coal and oil are damaging enough, and expensive. And then we come to the bio-fuel that are not completely innocent, solar energy which is not that efficient yet, wind power which demands much space, wave energy and other lesser known and efficient energies. All of the research for energy has started over 50 years ago, but the big oil companies have stopped or distorted in order to confuse people. Now with the monopoly of fuels and energy, and the economical failure of the nations, all the alternative ways to produce energy are held "hostage" by the big oil companies. Why BP got away with a slap on the wrists, after the tremendous damage they've done to the Gulf of Mexico? Why GM revoked all the electric cars and bought out the companies that have developed the new batteries they used? (see "Who killed the electric car")
But in my opinion the little things that we can do as consumers can (up to a point) change the course of the world. Spending less energy and restricting ourselves from wasteful and meaningless use of resources.
In Greece we have large mines of coal used to produce energy. They force us to sell them or close them down, when energy in Greece is the only public service that produces cheap energy. Greece has so little industry, that the carbon emissions in total are coming mainly from energy factories. The weird thing is that many citizens willing to put solar or wind power installations at their houses find it extremely hard and illogically expensive due to many crazy laws, certainly passed to protect both the oil companies and the electric company. So we are still forced to pay through the electric bill the Emission tax!
Buying emission certificates is not that uncommon, since countries do it. But it is illogical. It shouldn't be allowed. And the electric bulbs? Well it saves energy but they do harm the environment with quicksilver. (it is silly but at the same time they burnished thermometers with quicksilver, introducing electronic ones with ...batteries!) It is a difficult call, but the ever growing pollution affect our lives in such ways that all the advantages that have increased our life expectancy, are rapidly vanishing, so we might as well consider going back to some old ways. But it is hard to even suggest something, and this is what we need now.
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Well, finding in AMIT, people to talk about such matters is wonderful. The combination of MK and serious world matters is somehow a plus.
And it is remarkable to me that I can relate and agree to all the things that have been discussed here. Is it possible to launch a new state, let's call it AMIT people, any objections? Maybe MK could write an anthem for this new state. :P
Joking aside, concerning the energy issues, millions and millions of taxpayer's dough is currently being spent on the (further) development of electrical cars. I'm not sure yet, if this is a good thing. Or just a way to feed the industry with subsidies. There are a lot of problems due to today's technology of rechargeable batteries.
Another aspect is that I've only seen permanent mounted batteries in cars so far. Wouldn't it be more simple to hire a loaded battery at the "petrol" station when you are running out of energy?
But what about the toxic and rare elements that are today needed to build a new battery. Today's batteries are far to heavy, chemical reactions could be very dangerous in case of an accident.
One day this all could be changed due to extensive research leading to new battery technologies, so taxpayer's money would have been invested properly.
But then, where does all the power come from? Please don't get me wrong, I'm all with you when you say "Nuclear power is the worst way to produce energy".
The only way to deal with these current and future problems seems to be a change in our behaviour and consumption habits. Gonna change my way of thinking! (*)
VGONIS2002, you did mention http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/.
I'll look into that, thanks!
(*) Without the recent BD/MK tour I wouldn't have explored the whole work of Dylan like I do now. Of course I knew some of his songs, but I never listened to his songs so intensive. Thanks Mark! ;-)
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Willie Nelson runs a tour bus on biodiesel.
MK probably uses it in his jet, he reads The Guardian.
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Willie also runs when he plays golf..that energy alone should solve all our problems. ;D
As far as the battery issue goes..it's probably just a matter of a few years before the nanotech field comes up with a light-weight battery.
I do like the idea of a new state though..maybe we could convince Mark to let us use TOL as our anthem. ;)
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Justme, I've been having some peculiar ideas, about the distribution of wealth, that are a bit contradictory to ... recorded music. For some time now, I read one by one the books from a series called 33&1/3 by Continuum publishing, which catalog includes many of my favourite records, plus some other that I didn't even knew their existence. The last one I read was about the Radio city LP, by Big Star. (By the way it is a hell of a record, that I have been enjoying for the last 15 years or so.) This particular book was very thrilling to read, because unlike many others from the same series had 5 additional pluses: It was actually about the record (it seems peculiar but at least three books from the same series were far out ...of the subject), It was well written, it was by a fan, it contained many original interviews and last but not least it contained at least three pages of pure eye opening statements, heart felt confessions and insights that made the book, how shall I put it, - Personal. Now, all this introduction just to say this: The author had invited Chilton to perform at a local bar, with him and his band as the back up band. After the gig, when one of the friends of the author asked Alex Chilton, if HE had composed the hit "The Letter" Chilton turned to him and answered: "Do you think I would be here playing with you if I had written it?" Which actually shows where all the money in the music business were and are.
So the 1$ question is: How can it be logical and therefore fair, just or right for some people to live of one (or a couple) hit song for the rest of their lives? While I have been working hard for twenty years, and of course never will see this kind of money even if I live to work up to 150.
Also I was reading the latest issue of Record collector, and I saw that the re-issue business with 3,4 or even 5 different "anniversary" issues of albums, with uber deluxe limited editions, fetching 200-300$ right from the factory door, finally gets on the nerves of both buyers and critics. Apart from the fact that a collectible is not one if it is labeled as such by the company, the astronomical prices are pointing to a direction of absolute paranoia. Firstly, they issue them as collectibles, and as such they will never be played and enjoyed by the people that buy them since they are way too expensive, and probably they are waiting for the music "stock market" to go up again in order to sell. Secondly, the extra items they contain are usually elegant rubbish, since they have no actual value in separate forms. And thirdly and most importantly, I thought that we were paying for the music included and not the medium that is on. Of course the little fetishist in all of us desire the deluxe complete edition, so this has nothing to do with music, it is all about the desire of the fan, and as such it is an abuse of the desire. And it is really sad because they do not respect the fact that we are probably the last generation to be buying music as a physical item, which is the only way to sell multiple copies. Downloading may be the present, or the sole way of the future but it comes with illegal downloading, since there is no fetishism for the medium, and paying for music that you can get for free (even by breaking the law) is totally outrageous - when you think(OK there are many schools of thought, and I always buy my favourite music, even if they are rich, but I play the devils advocate, seeing the new i-pod penniless generation. ) Of course since the world economy is in bad shape, the conspiracy theory says something about all the cash retrieved and hidden and this is a good way to do it. But most of the artists that deserve such editions are already multi- millionaires.
And a last sad story, EMI was sold to the same company that has Universal. So now, most of the recording artists that seek a good distribution, will be forced to go with either them or Sony/BMG. How is that for a choice.
Thank God that European laws for copyrights in recorded music last 50 years. So you can listen record distribute or even sell all recordings prior to 1961. Maybe that is why the Beatles and other bands from the 60ies put out new remastered and extended editions, to restart the copyright clock.
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Yes - that whole issue intellectual property is a big one. And I have to admit that it would not be appropriate if great-grandchildren of an artist could make a fortune only out of the artistic legacy of their ancestors.
Regarding mp3, I'm glad that there is a counter movement developing slowly just to celebrate the listening joy to quality music on a quality stereo, for example:[...music fans gather to listen to classic albums in full without interruptions.] http://londonist.com/2011/01/classic-album-sundays.php
I'm an occasional visitor of exhibitions where high-end stereo systems are being presented. There are always different types of people, some are technology enthusiasts, or vintage technology freaks, musicians or music lovers - just like me. It's remarkable that, in most cases, the most expensive systems don't appeal to me. The whole experience counts, the music has to move me in some kind of way. And not some show-off fancy LED VU-Meter on a power amplifier.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against mp3 and compression in general, it is very useful that while you're in the car or during a workout you are able to carry hundreds of songs in your pocket. There are a lot of occasions where mp3 is more useful than a physical medium.
When I want to listen to music not for affusion but for clearing my thoughts, escapism reasons or calming down, there is nothing like listening to a physical and uncompressed media.
We are getting slightly off-topic here, but I have to admit I like listening to the Beatles. And it's a pity that EMI has been sold. Just another step forward to typical end-time-capitalism oligopoly (to use a word of Greek origin). ;)
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What a peculiar, almost beautiful (if it was for the best) timing all these changes in Europe and the world have. I mean, it is quite weird that all the bad things have a specific route and time frame. They bust your chops with journalists, throwing all the nasty news. A couple of hours or days later the government says it is not as such and suggests something mildly better and then they wait for a holiday, national celebration or whatever to pop the new realities, hoping and expecting that everything will turn out roses for their plans.
Anyway I found this article from a French news paper. It describes the situation exactly. UNFORTUNATELY I DIDN'T HAVE TIME TO TRANSLATE IT MYSELF, HOPE Google translation service is good, I went through and corrected the big mistakes . For any problems, please let me know, to go through it.
"The 10 Strategies of manipulation of the masses" by the French paper Le Grand Soir
1. THE STRATEGY OF distraction OF ATTENTION
The fundamental element of social control is the strategy of distraction that is to divert public attention from the important issues and determined by economic and political elite changes through the technique of successive flood diversion and insignificant information.
The strategy of distraction is also necessary not to allow the public to be interested in knowledge science, economics, psychology, neurobiology and government. "Keep the public's attention on secondment away from the real social problems, captive threads that have no meaning. Keep the public busy, so far as to have no time to think - back to the farm, like the other animals "(excerpt from the text: Silent weapons for quiet wars).
2. CREATING PROBLEMS AND later OFFERING SOLUTIONS
This method is also called "problem-reaction-solution." They create a problem, a planned "state" expecting a certain reaction from the world and then announce the measures that the authority wants to pass in the first place. For example: Allow it to unfold and intensify urban violence or organized deadly attacks designed to require people safety laws and policies at the expense of liberty. Or even: They create a crisis in order to accepted as a necessary evil, the decline of social rights and the dismantling of public services.
3. STRATEGY IMPLEMENTATION OF PHASE
To be accepted, the various measures without resistance, they do it little by little, in consecutive years. This way, they imposed during the decades 80 and 90 drastically new socio-economic conditions (neoliberalism): non-existent state, privatization, insecurity, elasticity, mass unemployment, wages are not guaranteeing a decent income, so many changes that would cause a revolution if were applied once.
4. "Postpone" STRATEGY
Another way to accept an unpopular decision is to portray it as "painful and necessary," ensuring the consent of the people at that time and applying it in the future. It is easier to accept a future sacrifice rather than an instant one. Firstly because the effort is not paid directly, and secondly because the public, the mass, always has a tendency to naively hope that "things will make the future" and that the necessary sacrifices will be avoided. This gives the public more time to get used to the idea of ??change and to accept his resignation when it reaches the fullness of time.
5. Speak to the PUBLIC as if they were children
The majority of ads targeted to the general public using reason, arguments, personalities and tone of voice, all particularly children-like, often on the verge of failure, as if the viewer were a small child or mentally "lacking". The longer they want to fool the viewer the most they adopt a baby tone. Why? "If you address a person as if this was 12 years old or less, that the submission is likely to force an answer or response bereft of any critical thinking as a small child" (see Silent Weapons for quiet wars).
6. Use sentiments rather than logic
The use of emotion is a classic technique to achieve short circuit logic analysis and critical thinking of individuals. On the other hand, the use of emotions opens the door to access the unconscious and implant ideas, desires, fears, coercion or inducements to certain behaviors.
7. Keeping the PUBLIC in ignorance and in mediocrity
Make the public unable to understand the methods and technologies used to control and enslave ... "The quality of education given in the lower social classes should be the poorer and more moderate as possible, so that the gap of ignorance between the lower and upper social class is and remains impossible to bridge "(see Silent weapons for quiet wars).
8. Encourage people to be satisfied with mediocrity
Promote the public the idea that it is fashionable to be stupid, vulgar and uneducated ...
9. ENHANCING self-guilt
Make people believe that they alone, are guilty of misfortune because of the failure of their intelligence, skills or efforts. This way, people instead of rebelling against the economic system, devalue themselves and feel guilty which creates a general state of depression, which is the result of inhibition ... And without action, there is no revolution.
10. THE SYSTEM KNOWS THE PEOPLE BETTER than they KNOW THEMselves
Over the last 50 years, the rapid progress of science has created a growing gap between public knowledge and those who own and operate the ruling elite. Thanks in biology, neurobiology and applied psychology, the system has achieved a sophisticated understanding of people, both physically and psychologically. The system is able to know better "middle man" from what he knows himself. This means that in most cases, the system has more control and great power over the people, greater than that which they carry themselves.
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Hey, yet another insightful text. Thanks for that, I'm going to look into that in the evening.
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I get more and more puzzled each passing day, of how can a deeply democratic person can fight back the corruption of the political system using the tools that original democratic systems offer its citizens. Unfortunately what happened in the USA after the 9/11, is happening in Greece and Europe right now. They have managed to pass laws that are hurtful to the people, reminiscent of dictatorships. Universities are no longer asylums for the freedom of ideas. Police can intervene without prior invitation from the Dean.
How about the power of information. How about the internet. What went wrong?
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Greek government is ready to sign anything in order to get the next bail out money. A signature that eventually will lead Greece into bankruptcy and Greeks without belongings or a country. A bigger still problem is that the fabricated gallops they perform (in order to manipulate public opinion) show that we will not have a change of politicians, because the system has not provided us with "emergency exits" or back up plans, without them looking like rebellion or treason. Any ideas from out there? Do the political systems of any of your countries have a safety regulation to avoid and change such situations?
I know that the USA constitution mentions:
Section 4 - Disqualification
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.
but how can you prove it, bring them to court or even fight with the laws they have been voting all these years?
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Here I am 2 months after my last post. Just to tell all interested, that Greece is about to get ripped to shreds.
The new "government" passed the laws that were dictated by the EU, laws that will eventually ruin Greece, but they still won't provide the promised help, because they don't believe that the Greeks are going to accept them or put them to work. There is a paradox in there for those that are good with puzzles. Thank God there is only one more month of winter, the 30.000 NEW homeless people would die from cold and starvation! And all this happens while we were receiving help...!
I am too frustrated with the news to write more, right now.
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Do you think Greece would be better of outside of the EU?
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I mean, what is your personal opinion. I did not mean this as a provocation.
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Do you think Greece would be better of outside of the EU?
Pottel, i wouldn't even dare think that you'd do that just to provoke me. ;)
If I had to answer with just a word, I would only say Perhaps. You see the problem is much more complicated.
It is plain to see that all the memorandums in the world can not help a country if they contain the wrong solutions.
I mean that there are certain things that are in the correct direction but the harsh way to enforce them , inflicts pain to the ones that were not the problem!
As I have written in previous mails, there are certain conceptions and mis-conceptions. In order to understand what I mean you have to at least accept that there is a possibility that we are fooled through the media, the government and the education system. All of them are controlled by people with different interests than the ones we have. You might call it whatever you want, conspiracy theory, the way of the world but the only thing that interests me is the results of it.
We have false conceptions about money and value, free market and pricing, democracy and parliamentary executive power, justice and doing the right thing and many other concepts of the mind that actually influence our lives.
The EU was right from the start an economical union that should have stayed there. The treaties for a united Europe that were forced to the nations 6 years ago, were now proven how faulty they were. (I know the Greek parliament voted yes, without asking its people, like Ireland did). Where is the help to a fellow country? There were solutions that could have helped Greece and stop the fall of the EU, back in 2009? Maybe they just helped their investors friends maximize their profits in the expense of the tax payers of all European nations. And now that they see how wrong they are, and that their political career is ruined, they punish Greece. And the worse punishment is allowing the media to turn people against people! To starve people to death. To take their homes, land, and production for peanuts. Why do they force Greece to sell everything, now that the values are at a record low? Who's going to profit? Will this help Greece and the people living in Greece? NO. Don't you think that the whole handling of the situation is strange? Saying we will help, and then creating trouble that ruin everything. It is like they say, " We want to help you, but in order to prove that you are ready to be helped, we demand to rape you." Why is that the first memorandum forbids Greece from seeking funds from third parties, like China or Russia?
Why the fellow countries don't give a final solution to the problems with Turkey, Albania, FYROM? Greece's borders are European borders, yet we are not supported from the EU when we have problems. We can not extend our sea territorial control in 12 miles, which is the standard for all the countries of the world! Who sells guns and army systems to all these countries and Greece? Why all contracts with major companies from Germany and France are still intact, when they force us to cancel all other contracts? Why the Siemens scandal is still waiting to be tried? Why do they suggest a Truehands' solution for Greece, when in fact Truehands was just a big cover up operation for the Western companies to take over the Eastern Germany business and shut them down in order to eliminate competition?
Why do they spread lies, like the one that Greeks are working less, getting great pays and benefits and like to mock the rest of the world? These are lies. You should come and work in Greece, or get sick to understand what's going on. You get a very small sample of the population, usually the 10%, the ones that work in the public sector, and extract results! But even there you don't take into account that in this 10% they include the army officers, and with all these threats from our lovely neighbors we have a very big army. But lets see the private sector: I have been working for 15 years, have a BA and a language diploma and my last paycheck (I am unemployed now) was 1020 Euros for at least 8 hours of work. With the new pay cuts that is going to drop to 800 and as I predict even less, since finding ancient coins in Greece is easier than finding a job or a Euro. The minimum wage was set to 540 Euros, and if you are under 25 years old, half of it! Mean while the food cost has tripled since we entered the Euro and the housing is as high as it was in 2003! We can not afford to buy the food that is produced in Greece, and we are forced to buy lower quality food from poorer countries! If that is free market, law of supply and demand, it is simply ridiculous. And how about the neo liberal thinking that has infected the EU? They say that market will regulate itself, but they are giving money to the farmers to destroy crops, to stop producing certain goods. Why is that? If the free market was working, the farmers would have stopped growing any goods that they wouldn't be able to sell. From the 90ies we were paying a fine to EU for producing more fresh milk than we were allowed. We were forced to import milk from Holland, France and Germany, when we had our own! People were forced to close their stables, get rid of the farms and cows. Now they allow it, but it is very hard under these circumstances, and of course it is always most difficult to start something from scratch that continue a ready business.
I still wonder why they talk and now seem to trust the same politicians that brought Greece to this state. Why don't they join forces to eliminate the international tax evaders, but instead they pass laws that encourage these people? They call them "laws for development". Why most of the central banks of the world (including Greece's) are private?
Of course, I am the first to admit that some Greeks are no saints. Greece through its legal representatives ( the democracy illusion concept I was telling you about) made wrong choices, but I wonder if they were judgment mistakes or following a plan, because 30 years or mistakes is quite peculiar. Right from the start it was plain to see that the bigger countries would always try and succeed to get their way. We should have said no to many things, do not accept any kind of funding, because the rules and laws that came with them were harsh for countries the size of Greece, impossible to keep. We were destined to fail, I am convinced that Dire straits sung setting me up only for us! It is the new way to create colonies! No guns, but still people's lives are on the line.
I don't really like to runt like this. It is a monologue and I would like some feedback. Maybe you were not asking this. And be sure, I represent a minority of people. I have never voted for any political parties that entered the parliament. I don't believe in Capitalism or communism or any other system-ideology. I believe in the value of human life and ecology. I believe that this planet produces enough for everybody and it is only greed that leads people to starvation, illnesses and wars. Just thing that people in Africa (and now in the local colony Greece) are dieing of hunger, not because there is a shortage of food and medicine, but because they can not afford it! The law of supply and demand is not valid when you can store or destroy the goods, just to gain more money! The national wealth of all these countries is stolen, with the aid of dictatorships, monopolies and (yes you figured it) loans!
Here it is to the new world order! They let it happen to Greece today, and tomorrow it is Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, France, England and Germany. Maybe they ways of control will be different, but the result is going to be the same.
So the question is which countries benefit from being in the EU and keeping the rest in? And for how long? The first thing is to find out the right questions to ask and tell them apart from any Pseudo - dilemmas.
I will certainly like to hear from any of you. The different perspectives and an honest dialog leads to the truth.
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don't think the greek criminal tax evaders, or politicians, or the ones illegally profiting from wellfare are any different then the ones in any other EU country. also do not think that there are any more of it then anywhere else.
think it is just a case of bad luck, and once the hedge fund suckers smelled blood they were all over it. actually making shitloads of money on greece bleeding to death. feel sorry for you VG.
hope we can still work this out at some point.
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Eloquently put, Pottel! ;) As I mentioned in my post, simple people trying to make a living and be productive are the same in every country of the world. I can only sympathize with the German, French, Spaniard, Italian and even the Turk. They want peace and quite. But when ideologies , and recent events fire up the old passions, it is only "natural" that politicians will use them to create diversions.
Yes they drink our blood, but they live on this planet. Some countries protect them, their fortunes and their nasty ways, because they get their share ( or the corrupt politicians. both reasons are inhumane) . There is a big problem - misconception about value-money and the distribution of wealth. Society changes so rapidly that the sociologists, economists, psychologists and many other humanitarian sciences can't keep up, can't predict can't help. Only stand there and watch. Watch and record like historians.
It is no secret that with new technologies, the productive work can be done with only the 20% of the global work force. I wonder if the war of the ideologies and mis-information, is here only in order to lead the rest of the people to accept the fact and lay down and wait to die peacefully.
I am very curious about the results of the next national elections in all the countries of Europe. Will the new left rise and try to give a humanitarian solution, or will we face the atrocities of the new right?
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From my ignorant/uneducated mind, it seems that bankers are forcing the Greek people into an unprecedented lower standard of living. I'd like to understand how all this was caused, but maybe there are no simple answers to that question.
No amount of understanding however will alleviate the innocent han suffering.
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Fletch, indeed money were given to Greece. As funds for development and as loans. Unfortunately the political favoritism was so strong that all the money ended up only in the pockets of the faithful few. Many big public works (roads, bridges, buildings, medicine and lets not forget the 2004 olynpic games.) As a smoke screen and a way to share the burden of guilt, they threw some money to everybody in the public sector, farmers and businessman friends. The bigger part of the population was left to find its way through red tape, thousands of new laws, loop holes and exceptions, and the ones that were trying to do everything legally and by the book were in fact PUNISHED! They had to pay for everybody else and this rendered their business less competitive. The worse thing A.Papandreou did to Greece, is change the perception of value and money of many Greeks, in order to have a broad basis of voters that elected and gave him the power 3 times and if you think of it, in a way exonerate him in 1989-1990 of all charges. (this happened because the three powers of democracy, had become only ONE!, and because the basis of PASOK in 1989 was so broad and the other political party had being smirked as being collaborators of the recent dictatorship, that strikes and marches were everyday news.)
So, I believe, we shouldn't have accepted the money in the first place, because the laws and rules that came with them were not suitable for Greece, we had no power to change them, and the corruption of the governments was so big that the money would be wasted. But the same people that wasted the money are the ones that promise to get us out of trouble. The ones that ripped us off (money and chances) now promise to save us by ripping off what ever savings we have. And they do it blindly, with heavy taxation, taking money mainly from the poor, like it is their fault. I wouldn't mind if the justice did its job and punished the thieves and traitors.
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So what happens now VG? Will Greece default? Will the youth flee the country? Will your country be forcibly reduced into an economic backwater? Is there any chance Turkey will take military advantage of the situation (would they want to)?
You said you are unemployed now? If its not too personal, how do you see this affecting your short/medium term future?
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Fletch, Greece is not allowed to announce that the state has already defaulted. All the money coming from the new loans, are used to pay the debts. The Greek IRS, owes people so much money in form of tax returns, but can not afford to pay any of them back. And this is going on for at least 1 year!In addition it does not accept offsetting, except if it is on their interest. So if they owe me 1000 Euros and I owe them 100, they don't refund me the rest 900, promising to return it when they find the money, but without interest!. If, on the other hand, I owe them 1100, they will hunt me down and charge me with 5% interest for the first month up to 10% from the 6th month on. Of course the ones that owe more than 100.000 are usually free to open new businesses. They cut down med expenses-so life expectancy will drop dramatically, education-less than 2% of the budget goes to education, and this is used mainly for new buildings and teachers' paychecks. No research, and last year not even books (I don't know if they have solved this particular problem). And so on, on all aspects of life.
So Greece default is only a matter of announcement. They will not let us announce it, until we sign to give everything as collateral and the prices for land, housing and labor drops, so that it will "attract investors" . When our politicians bite the hook, then they will announce it, without warning, so that they can confiscate everything. That is why we were protesting a few days ago. They were passing laws and signing new treaties and a new memorandum ( that the British courts will supervise- strange eh? but it is the British "colonization" justice system that favors the one who lends the money! But it is still illogical since Great Britain is not a member of the common monetary system!) If this happens, they will send the clerks to evaluate all public property and take it. And since they set the prices, we will still own a great deal of money, that will only increase with the interest rate (3-5% at least) and with no means of production in our hands! So I will be a slave in my own country! Of course people will not accept this, so they will have to find ways to "convince" us that it is for our own good. Sending troops, is a solution, but that would reveal that the EU countries are not such a friendly co-operation of nations. So they have to spread fear and create reasons to send them here. Turkey is a nice reason! And they don't have to actually invade!
The youth tries to flee the country. The well educated, never return from their studies. But it is hard to leave. The crisis has hit hard the whole world. Canada and Australia, the most liberal countries in terms of immigration, have raised the bar very high. If I was a doctor or an engineer, I would be able to leave today, but all the rest have to wait and wait. I know i have tried for both. But even the strong family ties that keep us going, are not enough to save us with all these new taxes. The unemployment is reaching officially 20% and unofficially it must be way over 30%. My family is helping me in any way, ( for the first time in my 15 year work life I receive unemployment benefit, but they are reducing it as well) so it is not enough and I also try to sell my things and do one day jobs, but it is very hard. Hopefully my wife still has her job, but as I said, all the prices are so high that we hardly make ends meet. We only think on a day to day basis, otherwise we will go nuts. Any kind of future is so bleak that we try not to think of it. Our two daughters are the only ray of hope.
30.000 NEW homeless people, since last year. 25.000 people loss their job every month, and the rest that still have it are forced to get reduced pay and longer hours.
So the short answers to your questions.
So what happens now VG? Nothing good for the Greeks and for the rest of the EU population.
Will Greece default? It is already on default, at least for the Greeks.
Will the youth flee the country? It is getting harder, but they do and also the well educated never return after their studies.
Will your country be forcibly reduced into an economic backwater? It surely can get much worse, but after signing the first memorandum the solutions, unfortunately, are a one way street. We can not negotiate, we can not search for funds from booming economies like Russia or China (this alone is a great scandal.)
Is there any chance Turkey will take military advantage of the situation (would they want to)? Turkey has never stopped claiming Greek territories and Turkish airplanes breaks into Greece's air space almost every day! So yes the danger is always there.
You said you are unemployed now? Yes for the first time in 15 years.
If its not too personal, how do you see this affecting your short/medium term future? In a city it is always about the money. I've never looked for a job with a higher pay, if I didn't like it or felt creative. But this is not about money. It is about my country.
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http://youtu.be/RqaSIslLlMA
Fletch take a look at this. It is very interesting and gives an overview of the Greece situation. It is about brand and branding and Greece!
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Fascinating video. It seems you are not alone but are copping all the headlines. All the news stories here concentrate on the financial sector, nothing as insightful as your posts.
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VG, great posts and insightful as a Brit to read, I have been to Athens (in fact i saw MK in concert there). It struck me then it was a place with alot of problems. I was surprised by the amount of grafitti everywhere. Which was a shame considering some of the amazing monuments and beautiful scenery. It was also very expensive which I assumed is due to you being in the Euro. I could never understand how the smaller economies could be placed on the same pedastool as Germany and France. I'm not anti European as its closer relationship was developed to stop another war. But I think that ideal has been persued to the detriment of countries like Greece. I've also been to Germany and thought it was wonderful, and unlike a few silly Brits I'm not anti German but I think they have alot to lose if you leave the Euro. These are fascinating but scary times. Good luck to you.
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Pottel, Thank you! You Know...
Banjo, thank you. I try to give an accurate picture of the way things are. I come from a family that is (or was) considered middle class, that couldn't afford private schools, was living in rented houses and when they bought an apartment repaid it by the time of retirement. So my point of view, really expresses people that have similar back ground.
Athens is a relatively new city. In 1820ies had less than 100.000 people, in the turn of the century double that and in 1937, roughly 500.000! Unfortunately many historical events (Balkan wars, WWI, the war with Turkey in the 20ies and the complete annihilation and genocide of the Greeks of Asia Minor , the great depression followed by a dictatorship and then WWII, civil war, the continuing depression, where Greeks fled by the thousands for USA, Australia and Germany, and then dictatorship again, the Cyprus division and then... Miracle! The same people or their sons and relatives, that were in a way responsible for the wrong decisions (namely Papandreou family and Karamanlis and Mitsotakis families) returned from abroad that they were "fighting for freedom and democracy for Greece"(!) and had an ideology cloak to cover their real intentions and plans, at a time when ideologies were still alive (late 70ies). Andreas Papandreou, the father of George Papandreou, had a landslide victory in 1981, promising reforms and justice and wealth! And from then on it was one way downhill for Greece. I have described somehow the rest in previous posts.
I only said this to point that now Athens has more than 5,5 million people and there was never careful planning for this place to accommodate so many people! We never had a strong economy to allow us to build skyscrapers and save land, (I remind you that we have many strong earthquakes), and too many refugees from all over the world (Russia, Egypt, Asia Minor etc). Quick solutions were taken to shelter them and provide a basic housing. These suburbs of Athens have the names of the original cities. New Philadelphia, New Halkidona etc. ) Streets are not big and now it is too late to do anything. Some regions of Attika are indeed very expensive and only wealthy people can afford to live there. But there are many suburbs that their value skyrocketed, and many poor people living there (New Ionia for instance) saw their properties raise in value. They sold their poor homes and got in return a large sum and in many cases apartments as well! So in many parts of Athens the educational levels of the population are rather mixed. The center of Athens (that a tourist usually sees) is such a case . That is why you see many graffiti. As for Athens being expensive, it is down to four facts: the Euro, the policy of all companies to sell in higher prices in Greece, than any other European country, the high rents in the touristic places (some times higher than London, Paris or New York and last but certainly not least, the greed of the owners. Their will to get rich quickly and easily.
Greece could leave Europe and Euro but it is very hard. Maybe under these memorandum conditions, it would be better to leave before signing them. I will elaborate in a next post.
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I came across this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
Even though it is, basically, statistics that I don't like, (mostly because they present results that can be easily explained one way or another,) this is interesting because the whole subject of this thread is the standards of living. I have notices some peculiar results, but they all depend on the factors they use to extract the numbers. Just keep in mind that since the wealthiest people in the world reside in certain countries, how they "change" the real outcome. I remind you that many big countries "paid" in people lives the reforms and their growth (Argentina, Russia etc.) while some other countries due to cultural and historical reasons, accept some things without much protest for changes (India, China etc.)
Anyway, it is statistics, take look it is very indicative what is going on and what will happen next to some other nation if there is no response from all the people of the world.
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Being the only Greek in this forum, I feel like there is a need to express what is going on, but also a need to prove that what I say is not only one man's thoughts and beliefs but also other people's every day life. I have come across this snippet from TV news, broadcasted live 10 days ago. If you could spare some time to watch it, you will get the whole situation in a nutshell.
http://youtu.be/42ikiH9Pqmg
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not entirely true Vgonis, i looked, we also have a member since 970 days, who never posted, "Flokos" :lol
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The only active Greek then. ;D
Hey Flokos are you there?
And here is the opinion of a British politician. At the EU parliament. I don't know his back ground but his points and remarks are revealing the very dimension that is usually forgotten, under the artificial economical weight.
http://youtu.be/DCYfUFUdeEA
And here is an interview. Do not agree 100% with everything he says, but still a different point of view. The interview in English starts in 00:57.
http://youtu.be/8UsiHn9crVM
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Fletch, I came across this recently.
http://youtu.be/CML3JTrO7Ak
It is something you have been telling me about, previously in this thread, but for businesses. Even though I don't agree with everything they say, I can quite understand the point of view, both for the fossil fuels and the farmers. It seems as though the problem is international and maybe more important than Greece's default, but since connecting it with the news sources from the rest of the countries of the world, is next to impossible, it looks as if it's a local subject. I know that the no.1 issue today is Ecology. But there are several ways of doing it and it is very strange that in this case both ecologically and economically they have chose the least effective way.
Of course my sources are limited and I could be wrong, so could you tell me any thing more? Thank you!
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The British politician is Nigel Farage and he is the leader of the United Kingdom Independence Party. They have a reasonable following in the UK and although I have never voted for them he does make some sense to me. How about a United Europe without the political constraints from Brussels.
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VG, the pros and cons of our carbon tax are definitely up for debate. The Prime Minister in her election campaign was recorded in an interview saying, "..there will be NO carbon tax in a government I lead.." - of course the law was passed last year and comes into effect this June/July! It IS unpopular, and a lot of Australians will not appreciate their cost of living going up (hello Greece) in what seems to be a token gesture to world carbon emissions.
The only positive I see is that Australian companies may be on the front foot when it comes to developing technologies that help minimise the tax.
I didn't know it was already affecting farmers because it's not been implemented yet. Farmers are doing it fairly tough though, they have coped with a drought for about ten years (which has well and truly broken this summer - its flooding across the country as I write) and no doubt the banks would have squeezed some folks harder during the GFC. It's true that we have an opposition leader who has pledged to repeal the law/tax, but talk is cheap!
All this just makes me want to listen to music!
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Thanks for the info Banjo.You are correct, apart from their wrong decisions, they have nothing to show. They cost us dearly, and I am not talking for only their salaries! I have heard stories about expensive schools for their kids and I wonder if their decisions are based on criteria different than the vision of a United Europe. Let's say that their decisions are only taken in order to hold on to their seats and way of life...
I was listening to the news today of a well known Greek politician that was (probably) wrongly accused for sending money abroad. The excuse that she gave was believable and easy to check out. Her husband wanted to invest in the building of a new ship in the UK! And my 1 pound question is: why is she in the Parliament? Who the hell voted for her? And for god's sake why? Financially the only Greeks that her rich state of mind would actually help and benefit are only the rich ones. But she got 55000 votes when elected! I don't think that we have so many rich people in Greece. I guess such people exist in every parliament of the world, but it is really weird if you think of it. I would never vote for a person that is so rich, because his judgment would be certainly fogged by his wealth and his will to sustain this wealth. He/She would be in the position to change the laws for his benefit and use any inside information in order to gain more. Let's suppose that you are the Prime minister and you announce that you will do this or that e.g. a referendum, and you are aware that by doing this the stock market will go crazy. And you have money to play. What would you do? (wink-wink if you know what i mean)
Thank you Fletch! It is very strange that when it comes to ecology and Kyoto, nobody made a viable long term plan calculating the worse economic crisis. And now on top of everything else, governments that signed it are forced to take action or face the penalties, which unfortunately burdens the already affected by the crisis. I know that USA and China never wanted to sign the thing and they are the biggest polluters of all! And the other countries are wasting money in order to buy some more emission limits from poor African countries! Maybe stop the whole stupid way they chose to solve the problem and all together invest in ecological ways to produce energy.
We have a similar thing with trees here in Greece, and people seem to have accepted it, but that doesn't stop some people from obliterating big forests! And most of the times they get away with it.
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http://www.1millionsignatures.eu/?a=en
This is a petition about the Greek debt. Please take a minute to read and if you wish to sign it. Thank you.
And an extra word. I have been thinking why we came to this state. I can really find dozens of obvious reasons but none of them is strong enough, or even if put together, for what is happening. There is something else behind it all. Our terrible politicians are forced by the IMF and EU to vote for the sell out of every resources and means of production, at the low prices that the "market" dictates. So we will sell for peanuts and still owe but with no way to produce and repay. In my opinion that is what should also be written in the petition. I understand that each Prime minister has to take care for its own people first, but not in the expense of other countries, especially if they are supposed to be a friendly or United country. The Euro-scepticists are proven right.
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Here is a quite revealing video for our Herman and german speaking friends!
http://youtu.be/9iOcEme-s84
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And yet another one from Germany, in German and Greek subtitles. Greece is the second biggest buyer of arms after USA! And the biggest seller? You guested right. Germany! As I said before, you have to look at the biggest picture. People are not to blame entirely. The system, we call democracy, is corrupt, and has created defenses that actually protect the offenders-politicians-dictators. The corrupt governments do all the favors for their big corporations' friends and they, in turn hide behind the people of the countries they reside. They pay taxes and keep everybody happy, but they also spread hatred for the other countries, through the media, theyso carefully chose to own!
http://youtu.be/rpxVMRNSzNA
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Two weeks after the general elections in Greece, and I still wonder why and how Greece with a debt of 350 billion Euros is still the center of everybody's attention and blamed for a global economic downfall. It is outrageous!
But let's take things from the top. 2 weeks ago the elections proved that Greeks just won't take any more lies about the "help" provided from EU and IMF as painful austerity measures, that lead straight to depression and Greece into a third world state. The proof that all they have been deciding and voting all this time was without the consent of the Greek people, was the fact that the two major political parties of the last 35 years got around 30% of the voters, put together, while the leftist parties got more than 35% and the rest anti - memorandum parties that got into the parliament gathered another 15%, total 50%, against the severe measures!!! If you count the rest parties that got less than 3% and didn't elect any representatives, you reach a staggering 62%!!!!
But still we hear everybody, mainly from the EU and IMF, saying that we have to elect a government that promises to keep on struggling the Greeks with the austerity measures that the memorandums have been forcing on us.
Amongst others, the laws that were forced upon us:
1.In less than a year the average salary in the private sector is going to be 400-500 Euros and in the public sector 600-700 Euros, while the prices are still as high as in 2000, when salaries were almost double that. The final plan is to make Greece a cheap labour and tourist destination, with salaries no more than 150-200 Euros. That have been said from official lips! Even in Bulgaria or Romania, that such salaries are common, the state of the people and the public services plus the crime rate are worse than ever! They still prefer Greece, to come and work.
2.The poverty limit is around 6000 Euros, but the tax limit has become 5000 Euros! If you have kids the taxation is even worse! People are selling their property because they can't stand the taxation, but nobody is buying! They can't afford to buy or to pay the taxes that come with them!
3.They cut down salaries, pensions, medical expenses, education etc, while they have raised the taxes (70 new taxes!, 5 instant taxes with retrospective power!) This means that people will be dieing from cold since there are more and more homeless each day. Every day more than 1000 people lose their job and they even have lowered the unemployment benefit. Hey, they are so clever that they tax it, after they've given it! 450 Euros with 15 years of work and two kids, for a year, and then zip! And they have the nerve to tax it!
During this period, they have passed other laws, that have gone under the radar, since when you are on the look out for your daily meal you pay no attention for anything else.
1.Greek parliament has passed a law that forces every Greek to give away his organs if he is pronounced brain dead! Any doctor would take your organs with no need of any consent, if you are considered brain dead! That is Free will, in the land of democracy!
2.While all statistics point that the life expectancy is not going to be more than 72, and lowering every year, they have raised the working years to 40, with an age limit of 67! I work since I was 17, so it will be 50 years for me, and with no hope for a pension or proper health insurance, although I have been paying more than most of the Europeans for these benefits! (39% of my salary, before taxes!)
3.They close hospitals, make us pay for the doctors and medicine that we already have been paying through our salary (the 37%)
The problem is that they have been fooling us for some time but they can not fool us all of the time, and this slow death of the economy and the people is the final straw. They blackmail us that we will suffer outside the Euro, but the alternative is to suffer inside the Euro without hope of recovery.
How would you feel if you were told what to do by the people that took destructive decisions for you ?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8fDLyXXUxM&feature=colike
This is a very short, simple and interesting video about the creation of world debt. It is 10 minutes long. Give it a try!
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This is a very interesting documentary called Catastroica about the Greek situation. It has flashbacks about similar situations of the past (UK, Russia, Chile, Germany etc)
with English subtitles
http://youtu.be/uoNjVMhmBfM
spanish subtitles
http://youtu.be/EIl7Jw-gCkc
Italian subtitles
http://youtu.be/eSamuPW8muM
Watch it, you may not agree but there is truth in it and it is certainly food for thought. It is happening and not only in Greece
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I have stopped watching the news on TV and I rarely listen to some of them on the radio. They are like propaganda in my ears, a scary one. I only read a Sunday newspaper. Lat Sunday, I saw that the public opinion of many politicians, including Mercel has changed considerably, after her meeting with the Chinese Prime minister. It is odd at least. Anyway, the fact that news are not plenty, not because everything is quite, but because it is the same old bleak ones over and over again, doesn't mean that the public feels the same. All this weight has fallen on its shoulders and every passing day it is heavier. The breaking point is not that very far, and I wonder...
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I am a bit worried about the right wing forces in Greece at the moment. A bit like in Antwerp Belgium some 10 years ago, but then in a complete country....
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We are worried too. Mostly because they have gathered power from the ordinary Joe, who is ready to break some heads without thinking. But if you consider what is going on here and what we've been going through the last 3 years it is not hard to understand that these are common "cause and result" cases. The crime rate has gone through the roof, but still within Europe's average, so they don't pay attention. They pay young policemen with 600Euros and they expect to do their dangerous work as usual. And so it goes for every civil servant Teachers have to accept a first paycheck of 580 Euros and like the policemen are forced away from their parent's home, so they have to pay another set of rent, food, and bills. And the money they get are not tax free! In the end of the year they are asked to pay 10% back. If you do the math it is 6500 a year for a policeman!!! This is slaughter. They will not accept children as a tax relief reason, so families with kids are punished with extra tax! They raise the fuel (oil and natural gas) at car fuel prices, in order to stop tax evasion! They are paranoid. And these are few of the new laws that they are passing in order to convince the EU that we are good kids and that we are ready to die, just as long as we have a place in the Euro but not in the sun. Immigrants don't want to stay in Greece but they can't go back or move forward to any other European country. All public services are in the brink of melt down and on top of that they ask for 15000 lay offs, effective immediately. They don't care what happens, they only add numbers and if the actual results are not as expected, they blame it on the government that won't move quickly or do the whole rearrangement. They just won't admit that it is too much too late, a wrong plan and other interests in stake. They sold one of the richest gold mines in the world for peanuts, They sold the use of the biggest port in Greece and costs of customs have gone up 70%. They have tried to sell the power and water companies that are Profitable! They sold the telephone company to Deutche Telecoms for the silly sum of 600 millions, close to what the company made in a year!!! See and read what happened with True Hands after the fall of the Berlin wall. It happens here but it is worse. Watch the documentary I mention a few posts back. You will see the other side.
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What is with the formula 1 track that is supposedly going to be built for 100 million? True or EU propaganda?
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I think that they were thinking about it for ages, but the Constantinople one was built so it is just hearsay. Do you have some specific article to see?
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Belgien and German newspaper article.
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Yes, now I see some recent articles in Greek.(a month ago) But it is the old plan resurfacing, from other people. I don't know what the German and Belgian articles write, but it looks like they want to build it near the port or at the old airport, by the sea. All private funding, and will give 5000 permanent jobs plus 3000 temporary. Apart from the fact that they will use public property that was supposed to become a park that Athens really needs, the work it will provide is a rather good think. Especially if it is made in Keratsini/Drapetsona that are really very poor neighborhoods. But as I have said it is the same old plan that I hear for the last 20 years. And no other clues. Maybe I am missing info that the journalists think common knowledge.
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The IMF, forces the Greek government to cut all tax exemptions from Euro one. This means that regardless if 65% of the people live under poverty standards (less than 5000 Euros / year) . So if you work in a company and make 5001 Euros you are taxed with 10%. If you work on your own you are taxed 35% from Euro 1. And the same goes even if you have wife and kids, it doesn't matter that you need more money to feed them. They also evaluate your other assets (house, land etc.) and tax you heavily, even if you don't make any money out of them. People are about to lose their houses because they have no money to pay the taxes for them. Profitable public companies like the Power and Water company are targeted by the IMF, that asks for their sale, while the profit margin is good and at the same time the government can control prices for the benefit of the weakest. At the same time they are forcing the government to lower the taxes on big business, as they claim, in an effort to attract business in Greece. But when they accepted China and India in the World Commerce Organization, it was plain to see that workers with 1$ salary/day, will bring down the world economy, since no country in the world can adjust or compete. "Live with what they make" (yes they are their main catch-phrase in Greece as well) is a load of rubbish, because when the biggest part of population lives in cities, it has to pay for everything, especially for food and rent. Now all these new laws have brought such recession in Greece (-7% growth for the last 3 years) that is worst even after WWII. Such recession creates a vicious cycle that eventually brings countries to bankruptcy, real or virtual , as we live it. Over 1,5 millions unemployed and they would be more but many have already left the country. I have come to the conclusion that all politicians lie (-you remember the joke-"How do you know a politician lies? His lips are moving. ) and they serve interests other than the good of their people. Most of the times they do it because they are taught this theories in famous universities, theories that don't work, but a nation has to be the guinea pig to realize that.The rest of the times it happens because they mix what is good for the country with what is good for them. Don't let it happen to you as well or allow it to happen to any other nation in the world.
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Sad.....
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... and painfully true.
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Some time ago during Easter in April 2012, I went for a visit at my mother's hometown some 140km outside Athens. It is really a blessed place, a micrography of Greek landscape, combining the beauty of the sea, mountains and farmland. It produces olives, olive oil, wine, tobacco, grapes, almonds, lamb meat, peanuts, fish and many other things in smaller scale like herbs, cotton, wheat, corn and honey. All people there have a piece of land, small or big, depending on the heritage of their ancestors or the wise decision to buy farms from people leaving for the big cities. They also have a decent house and a neighborhood feeling that is long gone from the cities. What they obviously lack is a proper education. That wouldn't be a problem, since Greeks are kind hearted, friendly and hospitable people, that usually make up for most of the luck of education. Unfortunately the only thing that can be substituted is the knowledge of what is good for them. And that is why they were fooled by the politicians for centuries and up to the last two elections. Because the ones that voted yet again in May and June 2012, for the two political parties that had formed the coalition since November 2011, were mainly them!!! They were lied upon, they were ripped with new heavy taxation, they received no promises for a better future, but still they went ahead and voted mainly for PASOK (the "socialist" party), the political party that have been ruining the country (together with the right party New Democracy) since 1974!
I tried to discuss with many of my relatives and friends the situation and actually understand why they vote for these parties and maybe convince them to vote for smaller parties that maybe were closer to them. I knew that they were voting for them and I didn't try to confront them straight ahead, so that I would not insult them for their previous choices. After all I thought that the new taxes and economical burdens would have brought them to their knees.
But alas! I was surprised to hear, more or less, the same reply:" You are right, by all means, and looks like you have studied the whole matter, but I am still voting for them, because they are the ones we know" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You don't have anything to answer to that! It is peculiar yet true. It is human nature. Trouble is that their vote affects my life as well! And it has nothing to do with ideologies, it is just simple logic.
Now back to Athens. I had the chance to meet with many people during the summer, that open up with their opinion. I was stunned! So many people worring about what to vote, because no political party could express them , like myself. And on the other hand so many people daring to say that they will vote for the extremist right wing party. The so called radical left party got many votes (up from 8% and 4th placement to 27% and 2nd !!!!!), but it was mainly protest vote, not ideological attachment at all. Many people I know, voted for New Democracy, without believing in it, but because they have certain problems (health, pensioners etc) that would lose their lives if the system collapsed without a government that IMF and the EU liked and supported. Of course it is plain to see that the politicians lied once again and the EU and IMF cares only to profit from it and not help.
What worries me most, is that since 1996 voting has ceased to be compulsory. It means that every lost vote comes from a person that can not find a fit representation. Now if only the 60-70% of the voters go to vote and from them only a 29% elects the first party (that together with the 3rd and 6th have joined forces, and formed the recent government) with a percentage more or less 48% but 167 out of 300 parliament members, you can see what kind of democracy we have. The 50% of the 70% is 35%. So we have the rest 65% disagreeing but unable to be expressed.
I believe that this happens to most countries of the world, but people either suffer quietly, because they don't know better, or live in countries with stronger economies or ways to get by, so they don't feel the wave that is coming after Greece, Spain, Portugal.
I have written before that this is a war with other means. Just think what will happen if tomorrow you are left without a job. How long can you sustain?
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I haven't followed this thread nor contributed, as iIwish to avoid political arguements here (I have enough to do tryint to answer some of the comments about Dylan). One phrase caught my eye : All politicans lie. In the broadest sense, I agree with this statement but you have to be watchful.
On occasions, politicians do lie outright - sometimes because they think they can get away with it - sometimes because, for the sake of a favourable headline, they are prepared to risk a later challenge to the accuracy of what they've said - sometimes because what they really believe or want is not acceptable to voters in general - sometimes for short-term political advantage over their political opponents - and sometimes because telling the truth would ruin their reputation of future prospects.
More often, though, politicians are a bit more devious. A politican may sometimes be telling the truth [in the sense that every element of what he or she says is factually accurate] but still be lying [in the sense that he or she is not presenting the whole picture]. Always ask: what are we, the voting public, not being told? What's been missed out? [For a period in my life, I had to interview people about their past work and most had a consistent and coherent life story to tell but, surprisingly often, there were gaps and the holes in the narrative, sections that were glossed over or unexplained jumps or bumps in the road]
When giving evidence in court, a witness is required to tell not only the truth but the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Since politicians do not apply this standard to their own statements, it is up to all of us to do it. Sadly, many voters do not seem to do this.
Maybe we should all be floating voters, without party allegiances or loyalty and without voting for any particular party out of mere habit, without careful forethought.
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Thank you for this twm. What you say is true! ;)
No, apart from joking, which is truth in disguise, I have to admit that I understand some sort of lies, or occasions that lies are better than the truth. If a patient is about to die, it is better to lie to him, in order to give him hope thus making his last moments better. And I much feel that this is the case with us. We have been lied and lied upon, so that we accept laws and changes that are from certain a point irreversible, and now they expect us to die.
I think that now even if we are told the truth and nothing but the truth or the wrath of God will turn them to dust, we might not believe them. But we deserve the truth, if anything, because the toll is greater than a job or a life, it is a nation.
One of the biggest lies of all is this: politicians promise before the elections. And the biggest lie of all is this "the voters are wise and can't be fooled and they will elect the best". I have never believed them, mostly because none of them was any good to begin with and because what they used to promise, was illogical. But I have seen many people around me taking part and advantage of these illogical promises, in return for their vote. This is one of the reasons we suffer as a country. But once they are elected they do what they want, regardless of their promises or the main reason they are elected which is TO DO WHAT IS BEST FOR THE COUNTRY AND ITS PEOPLE. And when you ask them, they say that people are not ready to hear/handle/ accept /understand what's good for them. When you have a roof over your head and food on the table, you tend to let many things go unquestioned. But this time has come and gone and now we are just waiting for the eviction note from our own country. Because that is what EU was about, after all.
See what is going on in every country in Europe. In the UK and France that are still considered stable, people are fed up with the lies. If not the next elections, in 8 years time the radicals left and right will represent the majority of the people. And both will try to return in a country based economy and view of the world. EU has failed, because instead of helping, some big countries took and still take advantage of the needy ones. The truth is before our eyes but it is too uncomfortable to focus and see.
Oh you got me going and I don't think that all this will make any sense. But it is all there in the previous posts. I wish I am wrong, because if I am not we are up against a very harsh future. But this is the value of the truth, when told: it cuts like a knife down to the very basics of human existence. Because , for example, the truth about the stock market is less complicated than we think, and it will mathematically lead to its collapse.
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Truth is an arrow
But the gate is narrow
That it passes through
I've just watched part of a programme about New York City on the PBS America channel and this particular episode mentioned the fiscal crisis in that city in the 1970s. The President at first refused to bail the city out with loan guarantees:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ford_to_City.PNG
He did relent and the city did recover. Indeed, it paid off its debts a year early.
I do not dispute your analysis or arguement and I am aware of the dreadful financal cost and social burden that is being borne by the Greek people but there are some parallels. Greece has a larger population than New York City but not markedly so as these things go (10 million against 8 million, though Greater New York is nearer 19 million). In the 1970s, New York continued its welfare spending while its revenues fell. It took out loans to finance this but couldn't afford the interest. Crime rose dramatically. Parts of the city were subject to "landlord fires" (it was more beneficial to claim on the insurance than to renovate the buildings). There were labour strikes aplenty. The subway system was subject to increasing mechanical breakdown, as well as being unsafe. There was a day-long electrical blackout across the city. Police corruption and violence were rife. Parts of the city were unsafe, especially at night. This had all started in the late 1960s but, by the 1970s, the situation was absolultely dire. Slowly, New York recovered, though.
I say this not to argue against you but to indicate that, sometimes, when all seems lost, recovery is possible. But it doesn't happen quickly.
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As I said before, it is not a matter of economy or politics. These are tools used to change are philosophy of life, our beliefs about freedom, honour, values.
I find little pieces of truth in various places. One of the latest finds is a documentary called "The light bulb conspiracy" You should check it out!
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I've just promised vgonis I would write something about Brazil's attempts to rapidly get over the blogal economic crisis.
First of all, I'm sorry for my limitation in English. Somethings won't be as clear as I intended to be when writing...
Well, firstly I think today issues are part of a greater crisis, started in 2008/2009 in the USA and for which Brazil decided to do exactly the other way round of everyone else.
While other countries urged to cut down public investments, salaries and to reduce the size of the government itself, Brazil's adminstration, with Lula da Silva, stimulated the economy. How they did it...
Billions of dollars to create construction jobs, the less expensive possible jobs, but in a economic area witha wide range. More jobs in construction, more jobs in other sectors, more production of bulding materials, housing equipments, more credit from banks to allow people to buy things and build their houses. More money running in the economy is exaclty the opposite everyone else was doing.
But it didn't happen only in construction, but also in the automotive sector, agriculture, oil prospection and others with a quick return in terms of jobs, mainly. In totum, the government poured 20 billion dollars in strategic sectors to boost the creation of jobs.
In other front, more recently, the government is using its two official banks, among the 10 biggest brazilian financial institucions, to reduce the credit rates. The private sector had to follow. So everyone maintained their jobs and had cheaper money to keep moving the economy.
OK, many people lost their jobs in the first months of crisis, back in 2009. But most of the job cuts were due to the fear of businessmen of producing without a steady sales perspective. Once they saw that the economy was still running, the ones that didn't fire and kept producing earned more money that the ones in fear. Today, our unemployement rate is only 5,4%, the lowest in bazillion years.
Our GDP dereased 0.6% in 2009, but increased 7,5% next year. Today, the rates are low, but steadly positive.
I hope I could deliver a brief case explanation about Brazil's formula. I don't know if it would work anywhere else. Here, it did.
So, when I see announcements retirement programs cutting, the selling of national properties and companies***, wages reduction, freezing public investmnets, high credit rates, I think "how do they think this will put the economy back in track?" No way, in my opinion. If the national economy is restrained just to pay debts, what will emerge after the debt is payed, if it will ever be? On the other hand, people with jobs and money will contribute to increase the economy, keeping the businesses open, raising production, selling national's production overseas, bringing more money in. I don't know if this virtuosity circle will sustain around here, but for now it's pretty working.
*** When Brazil sold a large amount of its public companies, back in 1990/99, the result was a 85,2 billion dollars deposit national treasure. The profit of the same companies in the same time was 87,6 billion dollars...
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Nababo your use of English is great. Thank you for your post. It is nice to read a description from a person and not the newspapers. I think it is more reliable.
Some thought and questions. I will not reveal if I am pro or against this or any plan. (oK, for the ones that have already read the previous posts it is obvious, or is it?)
I have heard the same suggestions about the recovery of Greece, but of course the not so great former minister Papandreou, had to rush to the IMF, and all these plans were thrown away. And IMF has its own agenda and it surely has nothing to do with helping the countries to stand on their feet. But even without the IMF, it would be hard to restart the economy with no money and an established rotten political/governing system. Greece is a small country and with the "aid" of the EU, all productive forces and sources, were totally ruined. What I mean is that apart from our amount of mistakes, many decisions taken in EU and international level, were bound to affect the smaller countries. For example, inviting China and India in the World trade organization with almost no restrictions has turn all the small factories into non viable businesses, overnight. Many of them moved in other countries, like Bulgaria, FYROM and Turkey. Some of them closed down and retired and everybody else is struggling with the situation.
Every passing year is worst than the one before and I feel like we are going deeper into a trap,with less chances to save our country.
If all economies are connected with bonds and stock markets, countries are bound to have problems, if a major one like the US collapses, or even if there is fear of collapse. How would Brazil react in a second bigger crisis, with such great investments out? Is Brazil disconnected from this network of "investments"?
The fixing of the prices in the stock market is beyond me. Here in Greece from the basic products we import mostly fuel and pharmaceutical. If we could cut back in those two sectors we would be able to repay our debt in ten years. But that would cost millions of lives. Brazil is a big country, but could it rely on what it produces, without importing anything at all? What are the main things Brazil needs? Where did they find the original sum of money to stimulate the economy? Do you have a big national debt and how long would it take to repay it? What is the cost for the environment? What is the rate of dependence on foreign investments? How sure are you for the political stability?
I know that ideology exists, but in he western world is a mask for quick profit, while some other countries believe in a left ideology, and practice it in several degrees and with different ways and results. How would you call Brazil's political direction? Apart from unemployment rates, do you have good and free health care and education? How would you describe the political rights and freedom? The crime rate?
I believe that Greece has ways of getting over the crisis, but they just won't allow it. It is not a matter of trust or different approach to the problem. It is just a non flexible and never tested formula that simply uses Greece as a guinea pig. And even though they see that it doesn't work, they insist and blame it on the structure of the state (which needs fixing, but not demolishing) and apply new heavier loads to the nearly dead donkey.
Unfortunately, with the IMF and EU ways we are only getting in deeper debt and when we reach a certain point, we'll be left high and dry.
I can only suggest very painful solutions, now, but it won't help because people can not think rationally. And if you think of it, economics and politics have become a matter of undisputed, belief, when they were supposed to be the ripe fruits of knowledge and logic. But of course you can not philosophize with a hungry person.
Anyway, thank you very much Nababo for the time and effort to describe the Brazilian perspective. Unfortunately our politicians studied in Harvard and Yale and think that the only ways are the western ways, but they don't realize that these ways demand other supplementary powers, like the ones USA or Germany have.
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Hi, vgonis, thanks for the words.
I will try to answer some questions you have posted, by I'm afraid my knowledge is not enough for things that are economically complex. But let's see if I can point out my opinion, again.
I remember when Russia led the way to an international crisis, Argentina were the country, here in South America, which suffered the most. They even created a new extraofficial currency, based on changes of services between people. The country is still weaker than its neighbours, but it's better than than in the 90's. What did they do? Stopped paying international debts and renegociated them. Most countries and banks accepted. Better half of debts than nothing, they probably thought. So, Argentinian priority was to ensure money for the country, nor for the international monetary system. Wright or wrong?, anyone of us can judge by our own thoughts.
Now getting back to Brazil to comment on commercial barriers. Here, some sectors - like show or furniture factories, for instance - are protected, being able to compete against cheap imports. To do so, some countries are taxed (is this correct?) not to ruin our domestic micro-economy.
Regarding to the connection between the economies from the whole world, I think Brazil took advantage from the good mood of the international market, from 2002 to 2008, to equalize its debts and to form a strong money reservation in dollars. We don't own anything for the IMF since 2007 or so, just to private institutions, with official bond papers that are partly payed in time, mostly renewed, just like any other country. So now, my country doesn't suffer to much with all the money flying from country to country searching for better rates.
The mains products we import are heavy and medium machinery to industries and agriculture, electronis, toys and alcohol. We export a lot of primary products, like ore and grains.
As for our political situation, we are on the edge of a little crisis down here. Some leaders of the Worker's Party, leftist, are being judge by our supreme court and are being sentenced to decades on prision. They supporters say it's a political judgement, because the judicial branch would be allied to the conservative political field, despite being mostly indicated during the Lula da Silva term as president.
I don't believe it will bring instability to the country, but it's surelly renewing the bloody dispute between Worker's Party and the Social-democrat Party, which is not SD, but conservative. And all the press marches with the right-winged politics - in the tatcherism-fashion, we don't have nazi or fascists supporters here, even more among politicians.
People in general do not bother with ideological discussions around here. Worker's Party initiated a program of "minimum wage" to every family under some level of poverty, with some like 50 dollars per family that keep their children in school instead of putting them to work or whatever. It costs little, a year of "Bolsa-Familia" is less than a month of interests paid to banks. And, by the way, it's another way of putting the economy to move in small towns and poor neighbourhoods of big cities. Education and health are still big issues here, indeed, sided by violence and drugs. Both are free to everyone who don't want to pay private schools or medical plans. Public hospitals and healthcare centers suffer from long waiting times. Public schools don't have structure like the private ones, lacking laboratories and computers, for instance.
But again, is better than ever. Teachers from the public sector now have the warranty of a minimum wage and are more stimulated to work. The Congress just passed a law that requires the government (national, states and cities) to put at least 8,5% of all tribute takings in education.
In health, our cancer post-treatment is better in public sector than in the private institutions. But still there is much more people in need than public medics to attend them, hence the long lines at the hospitals.
But I think our biggest problem is the violence. There are organized groups which control the drug distribution, specially in Rio and Sampa, our big cities, but even in medium sized cities. And robberies resulting in assassionations or related to drug wars are still high. There are 45.000 citizes killed every year here, mainly young boys from 18 to 24 years.
In Rio de Janeiro, the federal government are supporting the local adminstration to put, in every favela, a policial post with good structure and a closer contact with the citizens, to bring "pacification" to the community. The results are starting to appear, and other cities are starting to copy the system.
I'm not saying Brazil is perfect. We are far away from it. We have millions and millions of people living in poverty. We have violence, we live with the absence of the government in portions of the country and even in big centres. But I look to the past and I can clearly see that we are improving. The Bolsa-Familia I've just told you is a big example. With a little amount of money, families are able to surpass poverty and to build better life conditions.
Well, I hope I have explained things to you. Thanks again for your compliments, but I feel I could do better if I was more skilled. It is hard for me to express things correctly in English, sometimes I have the idea clearly in Portuguese, but cannot put it in appropriated words. We have a say here in Brazil, when we don't understand something: "This is Greek to me". 8) I hope this won't be Greek to you ;D
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Nababo, thank you very much for the time and effort! It is really fascinating to learn first hand for other countries. You are right in presenting the example of Argentina as a possible way to solve the problem in Greece. I really believe that this would have been the best solution 2-3 years ago. But Greece has some special characteristics that are very difficult to evaluate, since some factors are not controlled only by Greeks. Firstly, we are a small country in size, with few people (a bit less than 10 millions). The climate is excellent, but the terrain is rather harsh. Many mountains, few valleys and hundreds of small stony islands.
In the old days (until 60 years ago) each community was effectively cut off from the other (no roads, few cars, no electricity, rare radios) and therefore had to be self reliant. The central government had little power over the people, simply because it could not reach/help. But people back then had a stronger sense of the country as a unity called GREECE and had ideologies that led to the civil war, right after the WWII.
A break, since my babies got home and it is really late so I will try to continue tomorrow!
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Nababo, thank you very much for the time and effort! It is really fascinating to learn first hand for other countries. You are right in presenting the example of Argentina as a possible way to solve the problem in Greece. I really believe that this would have been the best solution 2-3 years ago. But Greece has some special characteristics that are very difficult to evaluate, since some factors are not controlled only by Greeks. Firstly, we are a small country in size, with few people (a bit less than 10 millions). The climate is excellent, but the terrain is rather harsh. Many mountains, few valleys and hundreds of small stony islands.
In the old days (until 60 years ago) each community was effectively cut off from the other (no roads, few cars, no electricity, rare radios) and therefore had to be self reliant. The central government had little power over the people, simply because it could not reach/help. But people back then had a stronger sense of the country as a unity called GREECE and had ideologies that led to the civil war, right after the WWII.
A break, since my babies got home and it is really late so I will try to continue tomorrow!
Thank you for the opportunity. And thanks for presenting more about your country. I've been to a few European countries, but never to Greece. It's a fault, I know, and I intend to redeem myself as far as I can.
Every country has its own situation, ways and means to get rid of economic troubles. I'm sure there's a way also to Greece, with an adequate plan to exploit historical and summer tourism, shipping construction and so on. But anything that is planned to be done must see the people firstly, not the bankers or the international creditors. What I like about Brazil is that a plan was made taking in account the needs of the population, not starving the poor more and more.
Kind regards, take care of your family!
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Nababo, read this post as well, in the general discussion.
Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA (Political subject changed)
All this week, there were discussions about passing a new agreement with the IMF, EU and ECB. The laws were voted and passed (153 out of 300 voted yes) but the majority of people in Greece obviously disagree with them. As I have expected (and many Greeks are starting to realize by now) the new loan to pay back the old loans was not available (it was supposed to be available since September) and the bonds that expire in the 15th of November (around 5 Billion Euros) can not be covered. The really puzzling thing is this: These bonds were bought by the ECB (European Central Bank) from weary investors(commercial banks and European countries), in the 40 or 50 % of their original value, but ECB never accepted a haircut for these bonds in March (while it forced all the country's retirment funds to invest and then haircut their portfolio for the 80% of the value. What was left, 20% was not paid in cash!!!!So all the pension funds rely on the new loans from ECB, IMF and EU!!!!!) and now demands to be paid in full. I thought ECB was created by the European common funds to help Europe. How can this actions help Europe? What is worse is that the denial or delay of giving Greece this loan, causes an international ripple of disbelief and new lack of trust from investors. ("If their fellow counties don't trust them with money how can we?") So not only they don't help, they just make it worse.
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Check this little video!
http://youtu.be/ehsxIjeRaME
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http://youtu.be/nxkBR_f_q4Y
This little video is the question and no reply that Greeks and Italians and Portuguese and Spanish people have been asking. It turns out that people have so much in common, but they don't know it. Because the national Mass media don't cover or downplay such news simply because they belong to the big interests, that gain the money and cause the crisis. And it is one thing not knowing and another not being able to do something...
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http://youtu.be/JG-4Sqmdy9s
http://youtu.be/I0oVRzqmUEA
And yet another video explaining the crisis in simple words. Greece and Europe. And after all it is one and the same. The simple John is called to pay ...
Oh, by the way, if anyone gets to spend the time to see these, I have to warn you that I don't quite agree with all of it. As a matter of fact I don't agree with the bail out example of Boston -or New York that twm mentioned in a recent post (given that the USA central economy owes so much that if it defaults no one will be saved), but I really like the general direction that points to a solution that has more to do with people coming together and the true meaning of a European Union.
Another thing that is not really talked about is the perception of money and value. And even though the numbers thrown in are true and work in favour of the point I also try to make, I hate to say it, but still money is seen as more than it really is, a simple tool. A tool that should be used and not stashed in piles. And laws about human values (human life, health, food, housing, education) should be above the laws about banks, loans, debts. And there is an obvious hint that I always try to make clear: The only way "investors" and banks have to make these things happen, is by dividing people of Europe. Turning a nation against each other, on MORAL grounds. And these moral grounds (sadly enough that morals in general are in decline, if not extinct) are actually maskarated MONEY morals. The German people are led to think that they pay for the Greece bailout. They didn't have a raise in the last 5 years. And that is due to the lazy Greeks. But the truth is somewhere else. See these small videos. Spend some time to see another side, to listen to a different opinion. We can really make a difference.
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I apologise for the lack of my response VG, and I appreciate your vast input and articulate thoughts here. When I have some time I will check your links...
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Fletch I would post these things anyway. It is one of the few things I can do. No need to respond, just watch, but I would be glad if you do! And watch out! You are on post 665! ;D
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That all politicians lies is a very big truth that have in Spain a big example of it.
The political party that rules the country, the PP, based all his campaign in critize everything that the previous party (PSOE) was doing and promising that they won
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jbaent I was reading your reply and I thought for a moment that you are Greek! Exactly the same situation. To the letter!
Do you have an alternative political party (even outside the parliament) that offers a viable solution?
The viability, to my knowledge, has little to do with pleasing everybody, especially the banks and the corporate business that own almost every aspect of technology. But this factor has to be taken it to consideration, since these interests will oppose to all the changes with all their force and money.
People with kidney failure and cancer are suffering in Greece, because they don't get their treatment as they should, because IMF,EU and ECB had ordered cuts and reforms in the health system. That means in simple words PRIVATIZATION. It is a death sentence, for the ill and unprotected. They were so scared that a leftish party would win the government (and what this means) that they voted for the same people that brought us in this mess! And the farmers did the same! And the richer 10% of the people also. So we ended up with the same government we had before the elections!
How do you know a politician lies? His lips are moving.
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The thing is not that there are political parties that offers a viable solution, there is not a viable solution as long as everybody allows the banks, the markets and Germany (Brussels, whatever) dictate the rules for us.
There are more political parties, but for so many years, Spanish people tend to vote to the two biggest ones, so when one made it wrong, people vote the other. And right now they are the same useless sh*t, but people are straight minded, they will vote them again.
And whats the solution when some European countries believe that the only solution to the crisis is making them poorer with the economical rescues, while they become reacher?
Would be a solution if Portugal, Spain, Greece, Ireland etc decides to leave the EU and the Euro and try to start from zero?
What its clear its right now, Europe is being divided between poor and rich.
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Nobel price for Peace ?? the European Union! That is fantastic. And what's next, an Oscar for special FX? All these fireworks are looking much like the peace treaties signed just before the war. The body of Europe is torn apart and a Nobel price is a bandage. It is not a joke, it is very serious, because it is clear now that economical powers have infiltrated everywhere.
It is a poor stand, though, so probably no Oscar for them.
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http://shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html
A nice article about social groups! Since Europe is a group, and AMIT is a group, I find it fit to post it here, but it is focusing on the social media groips. Very intresting read. Believe me!
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I am bemused by how much irregular publicity and headlines that are given to the "impending collapse of The European Union" or "financial chaos".
Is it because I live in a relatively stable economy that nothing seems to change or is there great upheaval over there????
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Hi Fletch! "Divide and conquer" is exactly what happens in Europe. And I am talking about people in the same nations. Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Ireland. Even the big ones have problems.
EU was formed on the basis of many common beliefs (Christianity, philosophy, aims, etc) The economic aspect of the Union even though it was important and was considered (before EU we had EEC which stood for European Economic Community), took over the last 14 years. The money was plenty and the future was wide open. People cared less and less about the corruprion in politics because they had jobs and social security.
The ones that really cared about a different future and not just growing old and getting a pension, were ringing the bell for at least 20 years in Greece. They claimed (and they are proven correct) that you can't live on borrowed money, you can not bridge the differences in the ways people think by voting for a European constitution and last but not least, you should slow down a bit with economy and put people first. The ones that cared predicted more or less that we were heading straight to this mess. The signs were there. I was one of them, and I know why I could see this thing coming. Because I never asked for political favours and when they were given for free I never accepted them, I was working for the last 20 years, and only in 2010 for the first and last time I reached (for 5 months) a salary close to 1000 Euros (married with children). I never needed more money, I was living a modest life. Of course I couldn't put anything in the bank, or buy a nice home, or even apply for a loan or credit card! But that is why I could see what was going on. In the US they swiped all freedoms and subdued the outcries after 2001. In Europe they just found other ways to do the same thing.
Today I went to an interview and for 25 hours a week I was offered 370 Euros!!!! The tragic thing and in spite of being a 10:00-15:00 job, I am about to say yes. My only concern is that my rent is 650 Euros and the landlord won't accept a cut. I am looking for a way out, going abroad but unfortunately I am not a doctor or engineer!
If the Mass Media were to expose what is going on in every country in Europe, and I am not talking numbers and statistics, but real situations, like how the cuts in public health decrease the life expectancy, and how many people are living in the streets etc, all citizens of Europe would realise that they are all taken for a wild ride. Even the "safe" countries, like Germany and France. And I am very much afraid for Australia as well.
When you are living in a financial chaos, and after 4 years it becomes your reality, you have to rename it somehow, simply because it has become the standard. But photos of how this affects people are there to see. They just don't care. They say they do, but they are unable to help. This is because they are not allowed to take any decisions on their own, and the vicious cycle of borrowing money can never be broken. I mean why not have the empty public buildings given to the homeless? Why don't they start building workers' homes? Why don't they distribute the crops and fruits that rot on the trees because it is not economically viable to pay people to collect them? Why the EU still accepts without serious restrictions, imports of goods from Argentina, Egypt, China, India etc. that European countries of the south produce in vast quantities, enough to cover the demand of the whole Europe?
Why every value is attached and analyses in money value?
These politicians are just puppets. There are no clean cases of politicians, and most of them are blackmailed to vote for laws that are ruining the countries.
Fletch, I had a talk some months ago with an Australian couple, (with Greek roots) and they were describing the whole situation in Australia. It was like living again the situation in Greece from the early 90ies. I can only say beware man, even though Australia is a different story and size, the situation sounded so familiar. The same patterns, the same methods.
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Well said. This could almost be linked to my thread about Christmas shopping on the high street. It may be interesting for those of you living abroad to note that in the last week we have lost 4 shops from our high street here in the UK. These are:
HMV (record/DVD store)
Jessops (photography store)
Blockbuster (video rental store)
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Athens is a graveyard of hopes, dreams and future. 1 out of 2 shops in every street is closed for more than 3 years and the count goes on. Even big franchise like Fnac (left Greece 2-3 years ago), MacDonald's (reduced heavily) Wendy's (none left) and many many more.
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Dear greek man
I haven't seen this post for a while, now I finished read your last contributions. Can you tell me how is your country going nowadays? Any glimpse of hope for the next future?
Best regards
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Hi Nababo!
Glad to ! Put my thoughts in order as well!
1. The laws that our politicians are passing are forced by the IMF, ECB and EU. They claim, that without the passing of these laws we don't get any new loans from those three and we have to declare bankruptcy. They also claim that these laws are not good, but they have to vote for them, probably gaining some time and hoping for a miracle. In fact we are going deeper into recession and with less chances to emerge soon. But instead of saying NO , they still drag us into the abyss with no hope.
And by the way, most of these laws are against Our Constitution! And people of Greece never voted directly for the EU constitution.
2.The Prime Minister is looking for investors, but although thegovernment has created a new slavery for the workers nobody seems willing to come! They have passed laws that do not recognize working experience, diplomas and languages, while they are about to banish the marriage benefit and the children benefits are already halfway down the drain. (Children are not recognized as an additional expense for the family, so if you have kids you are taxed the same with someone who doesn't) They have outlawed the collective workers salary agreements and force everybody to settle with their bosses, (you know the type :" if you don't like it you can leave") while they have lowered the salary limit to 580 Euros and they have made the flexible hours a devastating reality! I was offered a 5 hour job for 370 Euros but it was cutting my day in half, practically not allowing me to do a second job. And most flexible jobs are like this. Also two of the days of the week there was an addition of 3 hours, but in the evening, so I had to leave for an hour and return again! The legal break is lost in there, without getting paid! So working all day for peanuts! But the unemployment is still going up and it is almost certain that new jobs for 1,5 million people can not be created very easily or soon enough. Unemployment benefit is for one year only in Greece. After that you receive no money (it was 470 for me, with 2 kids). The state could counter balance this with other things, like not paying fare to the city transportation, when you are looking for a job, or give away the free crops that are left to rot on the trees and fields, because it is too expensive for the farmers to collect and too cheap to sell. Or build new workers houses in order to drive down both prices and rent! Or enforce rent control, like 20 years ago!
3. The new taxes are creating a new reality. Since they are not willing to catch the grand tax evaders (they are their friends and sponsors, or the "investors" I have mentioned earlier) they have to find the missing budget money from the same people, US! So two new taxes for your home, retroactive from 2009! They do not take into consideration anything, be that you already pay a loan for this house, or you don't live in this house because it is not habbitable. Paying your loan has stopped being tax deductible! They are about to vote for new taxes on everything you own. If your grandfather left you a small room in your village or even a small plot of land that doesn't produce anything, they are going to add them up to the rest of your possessions (like the only house you have and live in) and tax you like you are a big land owner. They say that a family has the right to live in a house up to 120 sqm. If the man or woman has an extra room or land from heritage, they add it up and force them to pay dearly for the difference. It is outrageous. And the big problem is that most people just don't have the money to pay those taxes, and it is hard to sell houses and land these days even for 10% of its value!
4. No jobs with fair conditions can be found. The companies that still function, just took advantage of the new laws to gain more money from the pay cuts. They didn't need to do it, but they did it anyway. It was a gift from the government to them. Of course this means less money in the market, less taxes to be collected and a vicious cycle all over again. I can not accept any job too far away from home, because the strikes are very often and I will either be unable to go to work or pay most of my salary to get there by taxi!
5.There is no sense and stability in the tax department. They change the laws and rules 3 times each year. No wonder new investors don't come or even consider coming. And the same goes for health, education and justice. We had so many changes after 1974 that nothing was given enough time to show results. I wonder why...
6. Greeks have a high level of educated young (<40) people. University degrees are quite common. Masters and PhDs are common enough for the people that have them to create trouble finding a job! Most Greeks (<40) speak at least one foreign language (English) in Lower level. A high percentage have studied abroad so his language skills are near proficiency. Many speak a second language (Spanish, French or German) and quite a few 3 or 4 languages. Our great income as a country is said to be TOURISM, but still no works at this field. Great hotels are built but apart from hiring people from other countries (like Pakistan, Albania etc) because they are willing to work for much less, they also provide very low prices for full accommodation (usually not available to Greeks) and people don't get out of the hotels-resorts! So actually all the money are concentrated to these big hotels. Nothing goes out to the microeconomy of the places. And taxes for profits of big corporations is strangely very low!
7. Greece is the only country in Europe that has boarders with Asia. People from all over the world that are willing to come to Europe illegally, just do it by entering from Greece. Greece has vast boarders, given that there are hundreds of islands and only a river boarder with Turkey. Still EU considers that it is only Greece's problem (actually they have created a force called Frontex, but it is only a way to avoid the issue) and when an immigrant is caught anywhere in the EU, he is sent back to the point of entry (usually Greece) and Greece has to make all the steps for his deportation. I don't have any problem with all these people. They are looking for a better future away from their countries and families. This is already hard enough for them. And they don't even want to stay here in Greece. It has nothing to give them. And since Greece was never strong enough as a country to influence the world economy or a big colonial power that drained the people and resources of foreign lands, it is somehow weird that it has to stop all these people and carry the weight alone and suffer the consequences on behalf of the countries that actually made the world as it is today.
8. Every value in Greece is counted in money. No human value. No history value. No civil rights. No nothing. And since money as a value is not steady, they have managed to de-value every property in Greece. They said that they are going to find Gas and Oil, Gold and Uranium, but with the rates and manners they are forcing us to "solve" the problems and borrow their money, these are already sold and bought in future prices. And the desperate as you know has no demands...
9. The most serious problem of all, is that the philosophy of life of the common Greek has changed dramatically. His faith in God, his over-view of the world and his relation with the people and nature has been degraded significantly. I fear that focusing on money and the economy and not trying to find solutions that are not using money as the only value, (and EU, IMF and ECB point only to this direction) deepens the problem. There is no hope for the next 20 years. I consider myself part of a lost generation. And lost because either it will be kept down to its knees or make changes the hard way.
Hope these points answer your question a bit. Let me know in case I have left something out or if you need more details.
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Not so much a "lost generation," but a part of an important piece of the history in your country (albeit a sad one). It is important to keep your head up and follow what you believe is right.
In different times I really would like to think other countries would be more willing to help but regretfully, it looks like the rest of Europe is finished too, to a lesser extent. The USA also.
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dmg you are probably right. But it is pretty hard to see it this way (somehow putting it in a future perspective-looking back) because these changes usually come out of despair. And despair means that you simply don't care about the results, you are like a trapped and hurt animal. If everybody did what they believed as right, we would either be living in Paradise or (most probably ) hell. And that is exactly how they have managed to do all this harm without too much fuss. We still believe that democracy no matter how many flaws, is still the best way to avoid bloodshed. And of course if you don't believe that a revolution will change things, you simply don't do it! Countries of Europe have the power to overcome the problem and set a new example to the whole world. It has the technology, the arts, the resources, the wit and wisdom and has learnt the lessons of all the WW better that anybody else. It is vital to happen soon, not only for the lives of people but for the planet itself. We have let economy over rule ecology. Everything is so cheap, because the environment is paying the difference.
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Hi there
Sad to hear all those bad things happening.
Brazil had passed through a similar situation during the 90's. Practically, IMF ruled our lives. Jobs without warranties, public companies sold by the pound, no public money to infrastructure... I hope you can get ride of it very soon. I don't know what can be done. What I know is that here in my country the government who took over in 2003 didn't change much of the big relations with the big international investors, but started to look ant the small economy of small farmers, little towns, people under poverty line, and this put the economy on track again, little by little.
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Nababo, Brazil is a vast country. It is in the 10 largest of the world, both size and population. It moves and the world pays attention. And yet somehow it took 20 years to get over the shock. In Greece the optimists say we are going to get back on track by the year 2030. If they allow us! I can't wait that long, not because I lack patience, but because they are doing it all wrong on purpose. And because I will be 60 by then, with no future. I will also have no past and the present... well it will be much like today.
I am an optimist too. I will not give up, let's hope that people can wake up. And as Chomsky used to say for the South American liberation armies, TV makes it hard to tell apart a freedom fighter from a terrorist.
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A few years ago, one year after the beginning of the crisis, I came across a book. It had been something quite impressive for me, because an employer would give it away as a gift to all his employees and so I took the time to read it. It was the story, metaphorical and highly instructive, of some laboratory mice, that they suddenly lose their food (yes, cheese) from the set point which they were accustomed of finding it. Some of them, full of insecurity, returned again and again to the same point, hoping that the food will reappear, while others, searched the rest of the labyrinthine corridors in order to find food elsewhere. The writer's very didactic style, supports those mice that turned the loss of safe foraging in an "opportunity" to explore other possibilities and they would MOST likely find somewhere else, better and more food. The MOST is capitalized in order to hide in the shadow of it, the "likely". Because what they do is replacing your real and certain food with nothing but a a possibility.What I realized was that the employer of these people would probably sack a lot of them and wanted to bring it nice and easy. But this grandiose in conception book written by an american manager, brings to the surface some of the policies of our current government. Converts citizens into mice. The structures of the state become a maze and finding work is the modern arena. They "sell" certainty when essentially our only certainty is that we have already been sold. They have turn into a matter of coincidence and luck, if some will find food, and when. The author takes for granted that such searches always have a happy ending. We all know that lab mice always die young, for one reason only: it is their job. Nobody will throw food as reward for exploring the maze, unless it is a part of the experiment. But to bring this into a conclusion, which people wish such a fate? Who wants to be a mouse? And most of all, who have given such divine powers in the Governments of all the countries of their world to control their fellow human (?)
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Hi, vgonis, you reopening this thread is an opprtunty for me to ask how is Greece going on lately?
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Hi Nababo!
Not good, not good at all. The sucess story they try to present outside is a hoax. People will start losing their houses in less than 6 months. And they will present us with one solution: SELLING all the public companies and assets. But I will elaborate at an other moment. It is nearly 2 in the morning and I have to wake up early tomorrow!
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Without any homour, do you ever feel like stocking up? Preparing for riots and anarchy? Do you think it's possible or likely?
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Without any homour, do you ever feel like stocking up? Preparing for riots and anarchy? Do you think it's possible or likely?
Unlike the countries in the middle east and Northern Africa that have Riots and anarchy, due to compex problems that have been hushed under many years of dictatorships, Greece has only a problem. I have analysed it, it is not solely an economic one, but it is the mask they have put up to hide the rest.
Unfortunately, stocking up is impossible to do, because the crisis in the form of taxes and unemployment, have eaten all of our savings and even if we could stock some money, the example of Cyprus simply shows that they can steal your money out of the bank! (Money in the bank is not a term used to define safety anymore...)
Riots and Anarchy. Well, we are a very democratic population and maybe this is the reason we don't have mass riots yet. But if people reach the point of understanding that the system is so corrupt that any change through it is impossible, it is likely that riots and anarchy will break out. Of course part of the defitinion of riots and anarchy is the unpredictable nature of them. You can hear them knocking on your door for the last 4 years, but when the critical mass is reached in order to break your door, it is a whole different matter.
I think that several levels that I expected the levee to break have been passed, but a new level, that of losing your home , is about to erupt in January. Unfortunately, what they are after are not homes and apartments, but time to sell out the big steaks of Greece, but have to shadow their actions by inflicting immediate pain to the people so they won't notice.
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Greece is not a big problem right now, my country the Netherlands is the BIGGEST problem for the EU right now. We have a very bad PM (Mark Rutte) who failed in his economic politics. Their is no grow right now, shops are closing and people can't pay their rent and mortgage anymore. We have right-populism, Geert Wilders... I think something need to change very quickly otherwise we will be like Belgium, a country with many problems.
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Welcome stormbringer! It is not a new story. Every country has its own problems that seem great, in fact greater than the others that we know only from describtions. Because the citizens living there feel them on their skin, it affects their life. We have to feel sympathy for each other more. Somehow the knowledge that everywhere there are the same inadequate and treacherous politicians will help see what is going on. So it is not just the Piigs? It is also France, Belgium, Netherlands and of course we should also mention Bulgaria. Almost half of Europe! And yet they try to solve the problem with bandages, ECB and EU giving hand outs for jobs(!) by young people and thenthere is hatred amonsgst nations and finally what?
Knowing what is going on in other places in fact helps us solve our own problem. And since both countries are in the EU, your problem is mine as well.
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I disagree Stormbreaker. The Netherlands don't have the biggest problem at all. The dutch peopleake it bigger. Unemployment is still growing, our economy doesn't grow. All true. But dutch people (I am one of them but different) are moaning a lot, saving their money and forget that we are still one of the strongest economies in europe. Of course people who lost their job have a big problem like everywhere else. But if you think one politician can solve the problem then you really have to think how!!! It's a worldwide crisis, started with the loans in the US which were to big compareer to the Prices of the houses, followed by banks in the us and europe that bankrupted. How can one person solve that problem? Bill Gates maybe, h
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...and Belgium...
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The problem is if "together we stand, divided we fall" has any truth in it...
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An ideology presented as economic science!
A very nice interview, by the PM of Iceland!
http://onenessofhumanity.wordpress.com/2013/09/29/iceland-provides-model-for-the-world/
http://youtu.be/qieVZb4Ml9I
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I love this country, I go there 2 or 3 times a year, saw the crisis starting, but also see how they recover now.
Smart people there and I think the president did a smart thing to let the people decide.
As an average icelandic people are very well educated and able to take their responsibility
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Another sleeper. Mainly due to lack of time. A nice article for the Greek situation, now banging some more European countries:
http://systemicdisorder.wordpress.com/2013/05/08/greece-depression-imf/
And not forget about Detroit:
http://deconstructingmyths.com/2013/12/14/the-motor-city-pileup/
It is a global thing.
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OK, after 2-3 years of riots and "rebellions" around the Mediterranean, Ukraine is the first country in Europe that is tormented by the same problems. Needless to say that I never believed in any of these spontaneous "rebellions". Always other interests helping the "rebels" to take over and take control of the resources of the countries for peanuts. So what do you think? I am mostly interested of how each country's media present the situation!
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We hear only the tiniest articles here on this situation.
There is more coverage of Scotland's impending referendum which also fascinates me, does Scotland have a great economy? Apart from its incredible liquid island exports!!
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We hear only the tiniest articles here on this situation.
There is more coverage of Scotland's impending referendum which also fascinates me, does Scotland have a great economy? Apart from its incredible liquid island exports!!
It's difficult to say whether we have a good economy or not. It depends on what figures you look at and what way they've been adjusted! Our initial state, if we went independent would be worse than the rest of the UK because government spending per person is higher in Scotland than the rest of the UK. This is more than matched though by greater revenues from oil and gas, but over the longer term as oil and gas - and the reserves they bring - dwindle. The tax system would need adjusting with increases.
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OK, after 2-3 years of riots and "rebellions" around the Mediterranean, Ukraine is the first country in Europe that is tormented by the same problems. Needless to say that I never believed in any of these spontaneous "rebellions". Always other interests helping the "rebels" to take over and take control of the resources of the countries for peanuts. So what do you think? I am mostly interested of how each country's media present the situation!
Almost exactly the same situation down here in Brazil. The Ucranian protesters, like Venezuelan, are pictured as "warriors of freedom". There are protests going on here as well. Firstly, they were also portraied as good souls in search of a better country. Now the violence is the tonic of the acts, and people begin to see that they are against everything, but do not know what they are in favour of. For instance, the protesters are against the World Cup in Brazil, now that everything is done, but don't have a clue of what to do with the structures already made. They are against corruption, but don't see it as a plague that is brought by every single party, not only with the current presidential side. An so on.
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I am afraid Nababo that the problem of taking a side will be a nutter. So difficult to break that drives you nuts. Naom Chomsky has described it perfectly when he said that the media ( and the people that control them) have the power to present people either as freedom fighters or terrorists. And since the world is so big that you can not possibly know the truth first hand, although we generally are under the impression that it is small and we have an opinion about everything-held tight as true, we are the easy victims of misinformation.
But still, I think the solution can not be found in the political structures of the countries that we call democratic. And since most people can't find a solution, but abhor violence, we receive a constant negative. This is a pseudo dilemma really. The solution is right in front of our eyes. It will cost us in short term, but will get us out of such economic crisis once and for all. The solution is actually slowing down and taking steps back from the technological and consumerism "culture" that has become a golden calf the last 30-60 years. We have to put ecology first, and solve with bold moves the social problems of housing, food, health, education and communication. These are things that every citizen of the world should have, for free. Political parties are in fact a part of the problem, because their viewpoint of the world starts within the problem. Ukraine for instance was called the wheat field of Europe, yet people there do not have bread on their table. I think that sometimes, starting with a big loud NO, is more meaningful than saying yes, because it reveals a change in conscience of the people. And this has a cost, because the people that control the money will just fight back, withholding of currency, imbalance the trade-markets and creating shortages of necessities. It is crazy if you think about it, but how most countries of the world have lost their sovereignty by owing billions... Countries that if they were run correctly they would be self reliant, like big corporations that take care of their workers.
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I am afraid Nababo that the problem of taking a side will be a nutter. So difficult to break that drives you nuts. Naom Chomsky has described it perfectly when he said that the media ( and the people that control them) have the power to present people either as freedom fighters or terrorists. And since the world is so big that you can not possibly know the truth first hand, although we generally are under the impression that it is small and we have an opinion about everything-held tight as true, we are the easy victims of misinformation.
But still, I think the solution can not be found in the political structures of the countries that we call democratic. And since most people can't find a solution, but abhor violence, we receive a constant negative. This is a pseudo dilemma really. The solution is right in front of our eyes. It will cost us in short term, but will get us out of such economic crisis once and for all. The solution is actually slowing down and taking steps back from the technological and consumerism "culture" that has become a golden calf the last 30-60 years. We have to put ecology first, and solve with bold moves the social problems of housing, food, health, education and communication. These are things that every citizen of the world should have, for free. Political parties are in fact a part of the problem, because their viewpoint of the world starts within the problem. Ukraine for instance was called the wheat field of Europe, yet people there do not have bread on their table. I think that sometimes, starting with a big loud NO, is more meaningful than saying yes, because it reveals a change in conscience of the people. And this has a cost, because the people that control the money will just fight back, withholding of currency, imbalance the trade-markets and creating shortages of necessities. It is crazy if you think about it, but how most countries of the world have lost their sovereignty by owing billions... Countries that if they were run correctly they would be self reliant, like big corporations that take care of their workers.
Couldn't agree more. Thanks for the input.
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Became facebook 'friends' with Marks brother, and now I've made a comment based on his status reflecting the Crimean situ - he's an interesting chap! :)
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The last couple of months, after the elction of the new leftish government in Greece, many things have happened in Europe, and in turn affected the world. The currencey, the political balances and alliances, the future of of some general elections in Europeetc. Unfortunately most media focus on how the Greek economy minister looks like or dresses, while they should analyze if what he says is logical, true and viable. If the current situation is viable in the long run or if it works for the citizens of Europe. A change should come.