A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: herlock on February 01, 2012, 10:06:03 AM
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I am just now listening to a lot of 80/81 shows and I just would like to share with you how amazed I am.
So far, in my mind, the OL tour was some kind of old prehistoric tour - a reharsal for Alchemy...
Well, nothing could be further from the truth ! watching Dormund'80, the level of energy, the crowd enthousiasm, Alan's first steps on keyboards... awsome !
I find the late tour set list to be so well balanced ! 2 years later, the LOG tour setlist would drop most songs from the 2 first albums, to focus on MM and LOG; but in the OL tour, you still had a nice share of the two first albums: DTTW, Lions, News, WDYTYRG... plus most of the MM album including Skateway, plus... a nice share of the LOG album that had yet to be released ! PI was already present partially at the end of News, and Telegraph Road was already there ! and what a version of TR ! very emotional, refreshing, not primitive at all, actually it is now one of my very favourites of all times ! You don't have the Log song (but the live version was not so great anyway), Industrial Disease (but it is no big loss), nor do you have Twisting by the pool / Two Young Lovers, but the early songs more than make up for it; it is actually a dream set list, a superb summary of the band career before BiA, only "Going Home" would have made it 100% perfect !
And what to say of the renditions of old songs ! This is where I discovered how underrated, little songs can be beautiful when extended ! I especially think of Lions and News, the Dortmund versions are just amazing ! "This is a song for John Lennon...", and the line "you're just gambling with your life", with such emotion !
Of course, it is not perfect. The (ab)use of synth is unbearable sometimes; I especially think of the end solo of Sultans, almost unlistenable, the synth ruins Mark's guitar ! this would be luckily corrected for the Log tour.
But overall the tour is so fresh, energetic, emotional... Watching Dormund '80 I though: "this is the real birth of DS". I learnt my lesson well: old does not necessarily mean bad, and newer does not necessarily mean better.
Cheers
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Yeah, I also love the 1980/81 period. In fact that Dortmund show was my first live concert ever, I wrote a blog post about it (including some pictures from the soundcheck) at http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/2011/03/29/the-dire-straits-rock-pop-in-concert-tv-show-in-dortmund-1980/ , check out if you don't know it yet.
The sound in the arena was much better than on the TV show, the 'awful' keyboards occasionally are partly a matter of being just too loud (e.g. the hammond organ on Lions)
Ingo
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I am just now listening to a lot of 80/81 shows and I just would like to share with you how amazed I am.
So far, in my mind, the OL tour was some kind of old prehistoric tour - a reharsal for Alchemy...
Well, nothing could be further from the truth ! watching Dormund'80, the level of energy, the crowd enthousiasm, Alan's first steps on keyboards... awsome !
Well said. It's a two-way thing between the performer and the audience; the more energy from the stage, the greater the response from the audience. I guess one could relate it to a football match. No own goal jokes please! ::)
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The 80/81 period is the more innovating DS period
lot of experimentation, trying diffrents sound, adding diffrents chords in the songs, etc....
It brought DS in the "progressive" side of rock
Alan Clark was of course an important element of this muscial direction
Alan's first steps on keyboards... awsome
You even have Mark's first step on hammond B3 on TOL intro ;D (then followed by Ron eve's hand)
old does not necessarily mean bad, and newer does not necessarily mean better.
of course, it depends on songs
I'd say that songs played in 80/81 and 82/83 were "better" in 82/83
I prefer portobello belle , once upon a time, tunnel of love, sultans in 82/83, it's more "developped"
but 80/81 is great for songs that have never been played since : news, gallery, single hand sailor, lions....
and I love Telegraph road version in 80/81, with the Schecter Tele on neck PU !
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[quote author=Jean-Fran
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100% agree with all of that.
Portobello Belle was smoothened in the Log tour and I prefer that; same with TOL, which was even a bit better in the BIA tour later; Sultants is maybe the one I dislike on the OL tour, too much old fashing synth in the end solo, Alchemy was much better.
But in the OL tour, little, unassuming songs like Lions and News became moving masterpieces. Can't understand why Mark has never played them since then. They would fit so well with his solo career.
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I'd say the early songs like News, Lions etc. sound better less developed as they were performed in 78/79. In my opinion the very reason the keyboards were introduced (the band made larger) was to accomodate the more epic songs starting to be introduced on the albums starting with ToL, then TR and other new songs MK thought were more suited to development. The new songs sounded great on this tour.
The early songs were only played around with on an experamental basis to fill in the set due to lack of material, possibly and inevitably they were soon dropped by the next tour.
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I'd say the early songs like News, Lions etc. sound better less developed as they were performed in 78/79. In my opinion the very reason the keyboards were introduced (the band made larger) was to accomodate the more epic songs starting to be introduced on the albums starting with ToL, then TR and other new songs MK thought were more suited to development. The new songs sounded great on this tour.
The early songs were only played around with on an experamental basis to fill in the set due to lack of material, possibly and inevitably they were soon dropped by the next tour.
Well... I can agree with you on the reason why the keyboards were introduced, and why the old songs were dropped in the LOG tour; but personally I think this is a pity, it is only now that I am discovering the marvels of the OL tour, the highly publicized Alchemy overshaded these old gems...
I disagree with you on the fact that the old songs were better less developped; I got convinced by Pottel to listen to "Where do you think you're going" in the OL tour, and this actually changed my previous opinion that the version of the BBC arena documentary was the best ever... Not that I find it bad, it is quite wonderful, but I think the keyboards add a lot to it; same for Lions and News, more depth and emotion I think.
dmg, where'nt you the one to advocate the added complexity, overdrive, sax, synth... of the BIA tour over the LOG tour ? yet you seem here to prefer the raw sounding of 78/79 over the more developped versions of 80/81... isn't it a contradiction ? ;)
Cheers
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I guess it does sound like a contradiction but it's my personal opinion. The reason for it is just that I find the OL tour sound a lot less polished than the BIA tour and the keyboards are just everywhere and too cheesy on the OL tour also for my taste. As I said though some songs sounded great, especially the new ones - Skateaway being a prime example.
The LOG tour really in my opinion is just very similar to the OL tour with sax added. There is a much bigger jump between OL and BIA than OL and LOG.
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I guess it does sound like a contradiction but it's my personal opinion. The reason for it is just that I find the OL tour sound a lot less polished than the BIA tour and the keyboards are just everywhere and too cheesy on the OL tour also for my taste. As I said though some songs sounded great, especially the new ones - Skateaway being a prime example.
The LOG tour really in my opinion is just very similar to the OL tour with sax added. There is a much bigger jump between OL and BIA than OL and LOG.
I was teasing you :) Yeah, I see what you mean. True that the keyboards can be very cheesy on the OL tour (Sultans is horrible for instance). On the other hand, the raw piano is beautiful (intro to TOL, TR). For Skateaway there are a lot of versions which I find less good than the studio version... but the one filmed for Fridays Live is just awsome, this should be on offical video, and this song should have been kept !
The LOG tour was a lot more polished the OL in my mind, tough - less cheesy keyboards, more depth, more complex arrangements (think of SR, TOL, OUATITW). I find the jump to be rather small between LOG and BIA (a little more polished, guitars and drums more overdriven, more breaks and more sax).
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This is bugging me, what does OL stand for?
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"On Location". This was the name of the tour promoting the Making Movies album.
To my knowledge this was the only time the tour was not named by the album, but by a line from a song in the album ("Making Movies on location", in Stakeway. The unreleased "Making Movies" song that we can see and hear on the wonderful BBC Arera documentary also features this line. Maybe the song was just transformed to the point of being totally different and renamed "Skateaway".).
On everybootleg.nl, though, the tour is simply referenced as "Making Movies tour". I guess this name is also correct, and meaningful, so, who cares :)
Cheers
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thank you! that was really bugging me
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so it was not Lyon's football team ;D
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I am having a block here - OL?
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"On Location" :)
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I am not sure if it was ever called so officially? It is the Making Movies tour, isn't it? "Only" fans who know the little part from the not released song on that Chorus TV documentary call it On Location tour... So this OL thing can cause some confusion indeed?
LE
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I was sure it was a tour of an old boys' rugby team! ;D "Old Leodiensians" maybe? ;)
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OL is Olympique Lyonnais French Football team ... btw i don't care about footlball
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I am not sure if it was ever called so officially? It is the Making Movies tour, isn't it? "Only" fans who know the little part from the not released song on that Chorus TV documentary call it On Location tour... So this OL thing can cause some confusion indeed?
LE
I guess it was an official name for the tour at the time. They had this name on the tour book:
(http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/tourbook_mm.jpg)
Sorry for the small pic, I couldn't find bigger one.
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I've got a T-Shirt "On Location tour" 80/81
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Ups. Then I stand corrected of course! Thanks!
::) ::) ;)
LE
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Yes "on location" was the official name of the tour, it's well known ;D
"Only" fans who know the little part from the not released song on that Chorus TV documentary call it On Location tour
LE, I guess you were thinking to the BBC Arena documentary ?
because the only DS apparance in the french TV show called "chorus" was in 1978, and no Making movies song at this time.... :)
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I have no idea why, but I've never listened to a recording from this tour. :(
Can anyone recommend a good one, pref soundboard?
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[quote author=Jean-Fran
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LE don't let it bring you down. We are fans, not experts. I have the OL tour book, but it's been a long time since I gave it a look, so I had no idea what OL meant, when they first mentioned it here. But I was afraid to ask and avoided the embarrassment. Or haven't I? ;D
Dusty, I am about to start listening to some of these recordings, and eventually by 2025 I will be able to say "mission accomplished". I guess a big thank you is long overdue to the ones that have already listened and give us valuable information. I very much like the Once upon a time bootleg, from Brussels, June 5 1981. My 50th record. White vinyl, from swingin' pig! ;D I like the part where Mark says: "we don't have any lights tonight, the lights are Kapoot". I think there is a video from that night as well.
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I have no idea why, but I've never listened to a recording from this tour. :(
Can anyone recommend a good one, pref soundboard?
soundboards :
werchter 81 ("once upon a time" silver pressed bootleg")
wonderful angel of mercy !
dortmund 80
audience :
emerald city : Mark telling the story of les boys !
wiesbaden 1st night ; wdytyg !
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I have no idea why, but I've never listened to a recording from this tour. :(
Can anyone recommend a good one, pref soundboard?
Say whaaaaaat?? The mk community renowned Dusty Valentino has never ever listened to a recording from this tour?? Whaaaat? You gotta be kidding.
I don't believe it. That's like saying you've never seen the sun shining, or drunk beer.
My ideals got shattered right here right now, yeah americans were never on the moon and bermuda triangle steals humans and sends them to alien slavery in a galaxy far far away.
I mean, whaaat?? Not possible.
In case you're not kidding (don't believe it) I definitely recommend Boston 1980!! A must have. And then Wiesbaden 1981, but second night (6th may) - imho a bit better performance and the sound is not ruined by clap.
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Say whaaaaaat?? The mk community renowned Dusty Valentino has never ever listened to a recording from this tour?? Whaaaat? You gotta be kidding.
I don't believe it. That's like saying you've never seen the sun shining, or drunk beer.
My ideals got shattered right here right now, yeah americans were never on the moon and bermuda triangle steals humans and sends them to alien slavery in a galaxy far far away.
I mean, whaaat?? Not possible.
In case you're not kidding (don't believe it) I definitely recommend Boston 1980!! A must have. And then Wiesbaden 1981, but second night (6th may) - imho a bit better performance and the sound is not ruined by clap.
LOL!
Best post in months. Really! Thanks for that! :lol :lol :lol
I once listened to Boston 1980. Never liked it. Bad sound quality and far too much gabbing MK in my opinion.... I think I don't have it anymore...
LE
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boboDS, it has been such a long time since we heard from you. It was but a trick from dusty to make you break your silence! ;D
No, I totally understand Dusty. You grow older, have a more creative work or pass-time and kids and to edit this forum. Too much work. I think my darling woman has to suffer silently, in order for me to listen to these OL recordings, and still they never end! ;D
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LOL!
Best post in months. Really! Thanks for that! :lol :lol :lol
I once listened to Boston 1980. Never liked it. Bad sound quality and far too much gabbing MK in my opinion.... I think I don't have it anymore...
LE
glad to be of service :)
Imho if you listened just once to Boston LE, then it's not enough :)
Sound quality imho, infact, is GREAT, much better than any other 1980 aud bootleg. Even like it a bit better than Dortmund and much better than Werchter 1981 SBD (which has terrible mix for a SBD imho).
Performance is great (EL, DttW, Lions, SHS, Gallery, News, Sultans, even Les Boys with the full story, TOL is good but standard, Wild West End, and one of the greatest performances of Where do you think - e.g. much better than the famous Arena one - imho that one is not a special one at all) and, which is big plus, is Pick's drumming that night, very very good (you won't hear that from me often, cos I'm a Terry Williams fan).
So all in all a great show imho.
boboDS, it has been such a long time since we heard from you. It was but a trick from dusty to make you break your silence! ;D
No, I totally understand Dusty. You grow older, have a more creative work or pass-time and kids and to edit this forum. Too much work. I think my darling woman has to suffer silently, in order for me to listen to these OL recordings, and still they never end! ;D
That trick worked then :)
I mean I read the forum almost everyday, but I'm not the writing kinda a guy. I just post when I feel I absolutely have to say something or when I get caught by surprise, which was the case now :)
So, Dusty, LE or anyone else who never listened to Boston 1980, I reaaaally recommend it.
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Thanks a lot for recommending this crystal clear Boston recording ! I will I will ditch all the others ! (save for Telegraph Road in San Remo of course).
Cheers
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I have no idea why, but I've never listened to a recording from this tour. :(
Can anyone recommend a good one, pref soundboard?
Although an audience this one has really a great sound :
DIRE STRAITS, Paris Palais des Sports 1981 june 17 aud SM master
"Recorded on Sony TCD5 M with Beyer dynamic M 201 mics (from 1st row center balcony, no crowd noise)"
Still on DIME and KnopflerTK
There is also a short pro shot DVD avalable from the following night :
Dire Straits - Paris 18th June 1981 DVD!
Still on KnopflerTK
I like the rocking version of Portobello Belle. The 1982/83 version did not made it for me.
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I like the rocking version of Portobello Belle. The 1982/83 version did not made it for me.
exactly the contrary for me :)
I find Hal's solo in 80/81 awful, sometimes completely out of tune ! (emerald city, wiesbaden)
indeed, you can see on the pic below he considered himself maybe as a rock lead guitar hero ;D
http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/2008/10/21/mark-knopflers-rickenbacker-of-portobello-belle-live-in-1981/ (http://www.mk-guitar.com/blog/2008/10/21/mark-knopflers-rickenbacker-of-portobello-belle-live-in-1981/)
I guess he studied a lot between 81 and 82, because his solo in 82/83 was more suitable to the song's mood ;D
his take on the Paris june 83 version (released on MFN compilation) is a good example
and 83 version have fabulous Marks solo, with wonderful licks doubled by the sax at the end :P :P
and linked to Tunnel of love :P :P :P :P
no, honestly, how can you prefer the 80/81 version ??? :o ;D
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81 is just rough straigh rocking no pseudo reggae jam...
Matter of taste ;D
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[quote author=Jean-Fran
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[quote author=Jean-Fran
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Thanks a lot ! :)
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[quote author=Jean-Fran
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[quote author=Jean-Fran
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No, it's obviously the exactly same version, I'm also 100% sure :) (have a listen to all solos)
indeed, the "yeah" has been cut
I remember Mark saying in an itw that he was involved a lot in the MFN production, so I guess he remixed himself with Dorfsman the multi-tracks tapes.
Maybe he feeled that this "yeah" didn't feet, at this time ?
If you listen to the twisting by the pool remix , you have the same thing : just before the solo, Mark's voice is mix down to not hear his "na na na na" or whatever he says, (you can hear it in the original mix on extendedplay EP)
I suppose he wasn't comfortable with his vocals, so he decided to cut some pieces there and there
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Yeah, me too, 100% that TR from MFN is from Alchemy, definitely.
Btw love the snare drum mix on that one, though the bass drums are bad.
And the Portobello is also, as J-F says, from that Paris show. Listened to that bootleg hundreds of times and it (at least 95%) is the same. Again, the drums mix is great imho (all the drums) and the whole song sounds reaally good, imho sometimes even better than Alchemy 96 remaster.
I remember when I first heard the London 22nd and 23rd July 1983 bootlegs a couple of years ago - it was a surprise for me to learn that they (it was really Terry W.) messed up the end of Solid Rock. Especially when a few days before that I had watched an MK interview from around the time Alchemy came out, and MK was confirming there were no edits at all and it was a recording of an actual one night. Despite the Solid rock ending editing, I agree with him very much - because there really were no overdubs and that's what counts for me - it really was live - something that, as I see it, wasn't very common those days and not many bands managed to this.
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I think we can forgive him for an edit that small. ;D Very few bands, if any at all have recorded a so fine live album without tempering with it. After all it is not a matter of artistic integrity alone, or the artist trying to prove his value (actually that can go both ways) but it is mostly a matter of sales. One very famous album, "Live and dangerous" by Thin Lizzy, is said to be anything but live, yet the fans love it and it is regarded as a live rock masterpiece. It featured new vocals, new bass lines, corrected guitar licks and solos and some drums overdubs. :-X I wonder if the audience sounds were genuine, I think they came from a David Bowie concert! ;D So I guess such a small edit is allowed. But the mess up was not that big, and I wonder why they have decided to change it. It would have added to the genuine live feeling, (you know little mistakes here and there).
Thank you for pointing out some of the differences of TR and TbtP mixes in MFN compilation. I never had the time to run a comparison. Even though i am way out of topic, have you found any differences in the Calling Elvis mix that appeared on the limited edition numbered single? And the WDYTYAG in MFN sounds quite different from the Communique version. A remix or completely new version altogether? I like it much better that Communique.
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Thank you for pointing out some of the differences of TR and TbtP mixes in MFN compilation. I never had the time to run a comparison. Even though i am way out of topic, have you found any differences in the Calling Elvis mix that appeared on the limited edition numbered single? And the WDYTYAG in MFN sounds quite different from the Communique version. A remix or completely new version altogether? I like it much better that Communique.
About Calling Elvis, I don't know, but I'd say it's the same mix
For WDYTYAG, it's obviously a complete different version (demo)
In Oldfield's book, it's explained that the band recorded demos of all songs from Communique album in London circa autumn 78
I guess this version comes from these sessions
And then they went to Nassau in december 78 to record the "real" album
I think that B. Beckett said something like " the album is already done, we just have to re-done it"
I can't recall exactly the sentence, but it's In Oldfield's book.
I would love to hear all these demos, and of course it is still somewhere
imagine a deluxe edition with the album in 2 versions :P :P :P :P
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Thank you Jean-Francois! :) Yes I would really like a demo Communique. It is a low key album anyway and the lo- fi demo quality would have imbued other qualities. And if the other versions were as good as WDYTYAG, found in MFN, no wonder MK wanted to produce from then on! (OK, MM's production was split)
I guess it is only a matter of time to listen to those tapes, if MK has not destroyed them. I would also love to listen to Private dancer demo. ;)
It has been a long time (some 10 years) since I read the Oldfield book, and many details, if not all, have slipped off my mind! Thank you for telling me, I might give it another read!
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Yes, I often read it again :)
it contains some worth valuable and accurate informations
And it often helped me to verify bootlegs dates, or infos about guitars :)
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Yeah, the alternate version of WDYTYG is great! I actually first heard this version, and then when I bought the Communique record, I was slightly disappointed.
Btw, a huge offtopic:
I just got back from Saturn store in central Luxembourg and they were selling the Sultans of swing (rockpalast 79) bootleg, really pissed me off!!