A Mark In Time
General Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: vgonis on February 18, 2012, 08:34:38 PM
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I have created this in order to post interesting videos, about the crisis in Greece, and to comment on them. If you care to participate, I think it would be great, because Greece is not the problem but can be the solution.
This first video contains mixed English and Greek. But it really worths watching..
http://youtu.be/qYyBDXBek0M
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This video is a snippet from a Greek TV station. It is in Greek, but from 1:30 on you will hear in English, young students from FYROM (probably known to you as "Macedonia") what they are taught and what they believe. FYROM is a newly founded country. General Tito tried to establish an artificial national consciousness to many areas of Yugoslavia, in order to bring together the many different nationalities and beliefs, with stronger bond. "Re-constructed" history was used for the lower part of Yugoslavia, now known as "Macedonia" because it in deed, geographically, contained a small part of the land that used to be the ancient kingdom of Macedonia. (with the famous Alexander the Great) The publicity and the loads of money spent for this propaganda (George Soros is involved, as well) proves that this is another orchestrated attack against Greece. (For those that read history, Hitler was one of the first to use propaganda in a "scientific" way. At first you spread the new theories -it may concern people, nations, or territories- and little by little you either convince people that the message is true, or make them indifferent. And as the saying goes: For a bad thing to happen, it is enough that the good man does nothing. )
So the trouble with FYROM, that the public abroad fails to see, is that the issue of the name MAcedonia is just the beginning. What they teach these young kids from early on, is that their country is partly occupied! They claim that the whole region of ancient Macedonia (and then some more) is theirs and should be returned! Now, FYROM claims that a big part a Greece is theirs-including the geographic area Greeks call Macedonia-(and also a part that belongs to Bulgaria!) and a big part of Thessalia. Albanians claim Ipiros and Turkey claim Thracea. All these regions are 100% Greek with people speaking modern Greek, that is the only language in the world, descendant of the ancient Greek.Alexandr the Great was speaking Greek (had Aristotle as teacher) and considered the rest of the cities-countries as allies and brothers, since they shared the same line of thought, language, beliefs, religion, traditions and so on. The saying "Pas mi Ellin varvaros" (The one not Greek , is barbarian-actually here the barbarian has the meaning stranger), was so deeply rooted in their conscience, that in the ancient Olympic games, they never accepted others than Greeks. And the ancient Macedonians were participating, all the time!
FYROM, being a small and new country, is in need of historical roots in order to sustain. But it is really a shame trying to rip off the history of another nation and re-write it. These people speak a Bulgarian dialect, their monuments are either the remains of other civilizations or strongly reminiscent of the art of Slavs. Because in fact they are Slavs, a group of people that came in this Balkan region, in the 7th century after Christ!
I would be glad if they really wanted to be Macedonians, but that would mean that they would accept to be first and foremost Greeks.
http://youtu.be/WDu_liTmdHE
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any macedonians on this forum? i know we have some bulgarian and albanian, but not sure if we have macedonian people on board.
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http://www.1millionsignatures.eu/?a=en
This is a petition about the Greek debt. Please take a minute to read and if you wish to sign it. Thank you.
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I'm an Albanian from Kosovo. I understand the problems that Greece is facing, because we're having similar (maybe worse) problems here in Prishtina as well. Corrupted governments, greedy politicians, being isolated because of travel visas, 50% unemployment rate, 45% of the people living with less than 2 dollars per day, 18% living with less than 1 dollar, neo-liberal privatization of public companies, manipulated elections...etc etc I could go on and on man. I think this is more of a global problem. We need a complete change. If you haven't already seen the http://zeitgeistmovie.com/ (http://zeitgeistmovie.com/) documentaries, I'd highly recommend them to anyone.
I don't really have the time to be active that much here but I do read all the threads and I like all the interesting discussions you people make here. But, I don't want to have a political debate in a MK forum. Music is something that makes me believe that there still are great things in this world, worth living for and experiencing. I think it's a way to step out of the bad and unjust reality, to simply feel better and happier for at least a little while. :)
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I don't want to have a political debate in a MK forum.
I agree wholeheartedly. I appreciated the first Europe thread from some time ago (and it's still running) and I know for its importance for some of our members, but since then we have some more Greece stuff going on, this thread here for example, and I think it is quite boring - not generally - but in this forum. But as long as it gets any postings it seems there is some interest in the audience so I don't have to say anything against it, just ignore it to be honest.
LE
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i agree LE.
let'S focus these threads in one side of the forum. maybe a "daily shit we go through" or something.
i would really like to refrain from opening a new subforum about politics etc. so it has to be a bit more "laidback"
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M'kay, so what about a "daily shit we go through" sub-forum?
;D
BTW, to end this post on a positive note:
This very morning BBC2 played this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4A9zwbHq38&feature=related
It was nice.
:D
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It is impossible to enjoy some things in life, namely the music and other art forms, when you are in the brink of destruction, or you are already out on the street looking for food. (There is a saying :"A hungry bear, will not dance")And when you see some things, first hand, you feel obliged to warn your friends or people with common interests, or just people that luck and circumstances brought in your way. I try hard to find both the time and money to keep this contact with the world. I really don't think that in 5-6 months time I will be able to afford an internet connection. You think that this can never happen to you, but since the crisis came to the "civilized" world, it is only a matter of time to hear the knock on your door. Because man is not an island...
An escape from reality is what everybody wants, and it is any body's right to pursue it. I just prefer to change the reality. Yet I succumb to the tempting escape from reality, even though this means accepting it in a way, in order to keep my sanity with the beautiful things that prove that life worths living, as GennT so rightly mentions. (Yes, I have seen all the zeitgeist films) I guess sharing comments about a musician, that we all love, in a way reveals parts of our character that we usually don't intent to reveal. We get to know each other, even behind pseudonyms, or at least create this false impression. That is why, I though sharing some facts about a country so small, that it is surprising it has become the center of attention or the reason the global economy is in turmoil, is going to help any of you out there peep at the future and not allow it to become your future. But of course saying that you don't like to see this reality, and closing your eyes, won't make the problem go away. African, Asian and south American countries have been living this nightmare, because of this attitude, for many many years. But I guess it is not a matter of opinion anymore, but a way of life.
Politics is such a ragged term, that we toss aside because it has become filthy. But in reality, every move we make in our lives, is in a way a political move or the result-reaction to a political move. From every penny we spend for the music we listen to, the food we eat and the air we breath (to paraphrase Police's song) they all have to do with politics.
...I think it is quite boring - not generally - but in this forum. But as long as it gets any postings it seems there is some interest in the audience so I don't have to say anything against it, just ignore it to be honest.
No comment. (Or maybe pointing out that I make no comment, is in fact a comment itself. LE, I am really sorry for picking your words and perhaps making you feel bad. No such intention, I know you meant well. Just making a point)
Just me: What I coincidence! I was working at home the day before yesterday, listening to the best of Frankie Valli. It was song no.3 in the compilation! I guess that doesn't count as an escape from reality, just smoothing the edges...
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There are many other media around me in my daily life, not just AMIT as such, and these other media are transporting theme no. 1 to me for about more than 12 months now. It is not that I am an ignorant bastard you see, it is just that I WANT to be an ignorant bastard around AMIT when it's not about Mark. Or Bruce.
LE
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But my dear LE, that is exactly my point. I have come to the point where this every day, But EVERY DAY reality, has come to affect all the Greeks, including me, in such a degree that even the simple pleasures, such as music, or writing to a forum for your favorite artist, are tainted. If you think that spending all this time writing here is just an act of politics or fanaticism, well it is not. Maybe I should change my way, and do it with a coating of humor. But it is hard. Because for you is just a piece of information in the 9 o'clock news, for Greeks it is our every day life. I get your point (I don't like the word bastard you use, though ;) ) but I never included any such political "comments" at the purely MK threads. Or Bruce's. ;D
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I'm so fed up with 'the' media these days. In Germany there exists a website called nachdenkseiten.de
Its mission is to aggregate all relevant news items in order to comment these news and to demonstrate that there isn't one noteworthy sceptical organ available any more.
VGONIS2002 ("it is only a matter of time to hear the knock on your door"), I'm absolutely sure, that in five or ten years time the whole E U is going to collapse. The side effects to this, I'm not going to elaborate, because I don't want to discuss politics any further. But I sincerely appreciate your reports from Greece and keep my fingers crossed that very soon your situation will be brightened up.
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VG, I have very much appreciated your thoughts and links. As my original question in 'Europe' suggests I was keen to know the vibe of different people over there because all we hear in Australia is how disaster is looming and yet life goes on as normal (I am lucky to have an ok job).
I think it is ESPECIALLY interesting to hear political news and thoughts on this forum because (without bias) Knopfler fans MUST be smarter than the average citizen - that's just indisputable! ;D
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I dont see why we cant discuss asides in a MK forum, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the reason we are all here and everyone remains civilised. Why have a general discussion area? As Fletch said, MK fans are good and clever people. Long may we have intelligent debates about anything and everything......... the other option is MKNEWS where most areas are out of bounds and some peoples heads seem stuck up there bottoms.
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A fact to be considered: Greece in 2009, had a debt (actually government bonds to pay) of 340 billion Euros. Today, March 2012, after the "haircut" of 120 billion and the terrible sacrifices of the middle and lower classes*, Greece owes 370 billion Euros!!!! 240 of the old debt and 130 of the new debt towards the IMF and EU and EU countries. The new policy in order to get the money, is to obey every little thing they dictate:
1.selling of everything public, at really ridiculous prices
2.Firing many people from the public service (they have already started doing it)
3.Lowering the "cost" of private sector. They have cut the pay of all people in half and for the ones under 25, they have gone even further 70-75%!
4.They have forced elasticity conditions into the working laws, such as personal agreements between worker and owners, with out the safe net of a minimum wage or hours. They said that they did this in order to create a new more attractive environment for investors and in order to have more jobs for the growing mass of unemployed, that officially reached 21%, but unofficially is around the 30%. These laws were passed little by little from December on. No change. Each day 1000 people lose their work.
5.They cut down or completely all the benefits, in either form of money or services, for the incurable, the unemployed, the families with many kids and so on.
6.Greece is one of the most expensive countries in the world, both in wages related terms and in absolute numbers. Rents are through the roof, medical services are higher than anyone could afford, milk and bread are expensive and all products from global companies are sold higher than any other European country!
Now tell me what is wrong with this equation? Doing all these and still end up owing 10% more than when this whole thing started! And there are a lot worse to happen. In June all politicians claim that there would be a further cut in all wages! At the same time, they do nothing to lower the prices of food, while heavy taxation on all petrol has raised the price of gas in the stunning price of 1.8/liter and heating oil to 1.1/liter!!!! Many people that took loans to buy a house, have to keep paying with the original agreement, even though their pay check is halved!!!! They are going to lose their houses and all the payments they have made.
Every day they pass new laws that introduce new taxes. According to the "experts" a couple with two kids can live with 9000 a year. That includes housing, heating, clothing, feeding, education etc. It is said that in July, if the new government, after the elections of May, doesn't manage to pass the laws and enforce them and get the results, they (IMF, EU) will send appointed committees to do it themselves! There goes the sovereignty of Greece. And yes there are a lot more to follow. Imagine no possessions, no food and no life. Well, obviously some do imagine that.
*I mean the financially insecure, I don't really believe in classes in a communist way. And Marx didn't either.
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this is indeed the general discussion forum, so no harm is done here
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Hey VGONIS2002,
here in Ireland were probably 2 years ahead of where Greece is at the moment & if you think now is bad you aint seen nothing yet.Unemloyment is through the roof,salaries have been cut way back from where they were,taxes,pension levies etc have increased,emigration is at an all time high & the next knock on from that is marriage break ups,suicide increase & ill health from depression - in 1 word its "meltdown".All the public services have been cut,public hospitals now have less nurses, doctors etc but people cant afford to pay private health insurance so theres more people going to public hospitals so we have sick people on beds in corridors all over the country because theres no room for them.The banks are practically shut so people cant get credit & businesses are going bust every day.Some people in the building trade havent worked in 3 - 4 years & anyone that was young enough has emigrated to either OZ or Canada at this stage.Anyone thats in their 50's are now retiring & getting out as the retirement age has now gone to 68 yrs of age - it was 65 & the government is offering them packages to go now rather than wait.In the latest survey one homeloan/mortgage in nine is now 3 months in arrears & this figure is rising on a weekly rate.Some people are struggling to put food on the table for their kids, pay electricity,gas bills etc - I thought that I only saw that in third world countries but its now in our own country.
I could go on about the reasons why & whos fault it is but believe me i have never seen anything like it before & I hope that I never will again but what I do know is that the main instigators are sunning themselves in far off shores while the rest of us pick up the pieces.
RANT OVER ::) ::) ::)
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Waterline Man, thank you for sharing this. Really do. Because the media and politicians here in Greece, use Ireland as an example of how an other country with the same problems, cut a better deal! Lies lies lies...What you are describing is a carbon copy of the Greek situation. 22% official unemployment, but in reality more than 30% (1.5 million people, and 1000 more every day!) Pension and Pay cuts nearly 50%, for the lucky ones that have a paying job. The basic salary is officially below 500 Euros, while all products and commodities are more expensive than ever! 3 new taxes every month for the last 6 months! Hospitals are pretty much the way you describe them, business as well. And yes, we know it'll get worse, but no hope it will get better! The thing that worries me more is that they have more ways to blackmail Greece into this hell, like a war with our friendly neighbors.
Please, if you could spare some time to be more analytical about the whos and whys, I would appreciate it. It is sad that Ireland goes through the same situation, and I guess Portugal and soon Spain and Belgium, maybe Italy too, might face the same shock and awe treatment from the EU headquarters and IMF.
Thank you for this post. And best of luck.
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The main problem / fault here was the building industry & how it was managed people lost the run of themselves buying & building property.We were building more units/ houses here than in London who have 4 times more of a population which was crazy - we now have ghost estates like the wild west which have been left unfinished,houses half finished next to finished ones & full housing estates with unfinished roads etc because the developer has gone bust! If you ask me people were conned into thinking that the economy was booming when people in high places were painting a picture that didnt really exist.A lot of ordinary working class people over here have maybe 2 properties & an apartment in Spain or Turkey. This would have been unheard of 10-15 years ago but salaries went through the roof & people lost the run of themselves - the thing about it is that the government of the time didnt come out & say hey people this is a bubble & it will burst with serious consequences - we had a financial regulator whos employed by the government who sat back & watched all of this happen & didnt do a thing to stop it.We now have a new government who are trying to reverse all the wrongs of the last one but weve gone so far down the hole its going to take years to see a small bit of light.Everything has been cut, salaries,jobs ,services etc while taxes have gone up so its a lose lose situation for anyone thats staying here.Whats laughable is that the government will say that the unemployment figure has declined this month but whatthey wont tell you is that another 5,000 have emigrated & its not just single people that are going you also have families with grown kids who are going.
If you look at the building sector & see how many people are involved the knock on is staggering when it starts to crumble, you have the land owner selling which involves engineers,solicitors,estate agents,you have the builder,which involves solicitors,engineers,surveyors,workmen,blocklayers,plasterers,painters,kitchen fitters/carpenters etc etc, then you have the guy in the builders suppliers,carpet shop,the guy in the electrical store who supplies the appliances & so on................. its like a piece of string.Then without a lead in this goes wallop overnight which means that the people supplying them are also gone out of work ie the the shop on the corner near the building site that supplied the tea & coffee,sausage rolls, newspapers etc.
Ireland was in meltdown around 2005 but people in high places covered the cracks to make it look good & up until now they have gotten away with it - there are a few investigations going on at the moment where people may be brought before the courts but when you had a financial regulator looking at all of this going on & didnt do anything about it where is that going to go?????? "Well your honour we were only doing what we thought was right & nobody in authority told us otherwise "
I could go on for the day but my blood pressure would only go through the roof :disbelief :disbelief
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Don't wanna cause you a heart attack WLman, but lately I heard more and more that you had indeed gone through disturbingly dire times but were now on the road to recovery?
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Don't wanna cause you a heart attack WLman, but lately I heard more and more that you had indeed gone through disturbingly dire times but were now on the road to recovery?
I dont know about being on the road to recovery Pottel - you see the problem is that we have been in recession since 2004 - 2005 but the people in power covered it over to make it look good from the outside ,they basically bluffed their way along until the s**t really hit the fan & there was no way back so we are so far down the hole we have a long way to go.
Exports are very good so thats probably whats being spun around the world to get foreign investment - half of the government around the world today for Paddys Day to try & drum up more business.Dont get me wrong people did go mad but they were led from the top - we had a situation a few years ago where the government had to guarantee the banks because they were broke - we were a day away from people going to the ATM & not being able to get their own money until the government stepped in.Its crazy stuff & some people cant see a short term solution - the ironic thing about it is that the banks are putting the squeeze on people for money on mortgages,loans,credit cards,overdrafts etc & they are the very people that bailed them out as its was our taxes & pension funds that was used to re capitalise them - crazy stuff :disbelief :disbelief
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...the ironic thing about it is that the banks are putting the squeeze on people for money on mortgages,loans,credit cards,overdrafts etc & they are the very people that bailed them out as its was our taxes & pension funds that was used to re capitalise them - crazy stuff :disbelief :disbelief
It is the same here. It looks like a carefully orchestrated plan, to me, but maybe I have seen too many conspiracy movies... But the fact that it has happened in several other countries, leaves little space for other assumptions.
Anyway, the biggest haircut of all, was enforced to the bonds that the pension funds were FORCED to invest, by the PASOK government back in the late 90ies. And they re-capitalize the banks, and yet they take no steps of securing the safe passage to better terms for loans and mortgages! People lose their jobs and then lose their houses and the money they have already paid! It is a rip off in broad daylight! I some times wonder if the people will ever wake up and stop voting for the kidnappers of their future. It must be a Stockholm syndrome situation.
I guess numbers can be cooked to provide a better statistic for the ears, but if the recovery is so slow that we will have to wait for 20 years(yes, that is the optimist side!) it is no good , because people will starve to death in less than a year!
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Here is a quite revealing video for our Herman and german speaking friends!
http://youtu.be/9iOcEme-s84
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Also posted in Europe thread, but it really belongs here:
Some time ago during Easter in April 2012, I went for a visit at my mother's hometown some 140km outside Athens. It is really a blessed place, a micrography of Greek landscape, combining the beauty of the sea, mountains and farmland. It produces olives, olive oil, wine, tobacco, grapes, almonds, lamb meat, peanuts, fish and many other things in smaller scale like herbs, cotton, wheat, corn and honey. All people there have a piece of land, small or big, depending on the heritage of their ancestors or the wise decision to buy farms from people leaving for the big cities. They also have a decent house and a neighborhood feeling that is long gone from the cities. What they obviously lack is a proper education. That wouldn't be a problem, since Greeks are kind hearted, friendly and hospitable people, that usually make up for most of the luck of education. Unfortunately the only thing that can be substituted is the knowledge of what is good for them. And that is why they were fooled by the politicians for centuries and up to the last two elections. Because the ones that voted yet again in May and June 2012, for the two political parties that had formed the coalition since November 2011, were mainly them!!! They were lied upon, they were ripped with new heavy taxation, they received no promises for a better future, but still they went ahead and voted mainly for PASOK (the "socialist" party), the political party that have been ruining the country (together with the right party New Democracy) since 1974!
I tried to discuss with many of my relatives and friends the situation and actually understand why they vote for these parties and maybe convince them to vote for smaller parties that maybe were closer to them. I knew that they were voting for them and I didn't try to confront them straight ahead, so that I would not insult them for their previous choices. After all I thought that the new taxes and economical burdens would have brought them to their knees.
But alas! I was surprised to hear, more or less, the same reply:" You are right, by all means, and looks like you have studied the whole matter, but I am still voting for them, because they are the ones we know" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You don't have anything to answer to that! It is peculiar yet true. It is human nature. Trouble is that their vote affects my life as well! And it has nothing to do with ideologies, it is just simple logic.
Now back to Athens. I had the chance to meet with many people during the summer, that open up with their opinion. I was stunned! So many people worring about what to vote, because no political party could express them , like myself. And on the other hand so many people daring to say that they will vote for the extremist right wing party. The so called radical left party got many votes (up from 8% and 4th placement to 27% and 2nd !!!!!), but it was mainly protest vote, not ideological attachment at all. Many people I know, voted for New Democracy, without believing in it, but because they have certain problems (health, pensioners etc) that would lose their lives if the system collapsed without a government that IMF and the EU liked and supported. Of course it is plain to see that the politicians lied once again and the EU and IMF cares only to profit from it and not help.
What worries me most, is that since 1996 voting has ceased to be compulsory. It means that every lost vote comes from a person that can not find a fit representation. Now if only the 60-70% of the voters go to vote and from them only a 29% elects the first party (that together with the 3rd and 6th have joined forces, and formed the recent government) with a percentage more or less 48% but 167 out of 300 parliament members, you can see what kind of democracy we have. The 50% of the 70% is 35%. So we have the rest 65% disagreeing but unable to be expressed.
I believe that this happens to most countries of the world, but people either suffer quietly, because they don't know better, or live in countries with stronger economies or ways to get by, so they don't feel the wave that is coming after Greece, Spain, Portugal.
I have written before that this is a war with other means. Just think what will happen if tomorrow you are left without a job. How long can you sustain?
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How about that! The Greek government passed all the laws that actually bring Greeks to medieval times, and yet EU, ECB and IMF now have second thoughts about giving the next loan (it is not free money, mind you, the interest rate is a killer) thus creating a new world wide wave of disbelief for Greece, that not only ruins every chance Greece has to recover by attracting new investments, but also make all values in Greece drop, in a free fall.
It greatly reminds me of old westerns or gangster movies, where the mob chief went to buy the business from the rightful owners, and instead of reaching an agreement, he just appraised the business and had the thugs convince the victim. A dollar is good enough! And you get to live, too!
This trail of money have to end somewhere. The politicians of Europe have to built in different foundations, than debt. And I am not just saying because I am Greek and in debt, I am saying because this is a downward spiral, actually a war with many victims, that will not end in Greece, just stolling for the rest of the world, in Greece. If we tolerate this...
Check this little video!
http://youtu.be/ehsxIjeRaME
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And for the patient ones (unfortunately in Spanish with Greek subtitles) this full documentary about the debt and the results in Argentina.
http://youtu.be/V8RZcl__4nk
http://www.videoman.gr/15905
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http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debitismus
from wikipedia about depitism. Send to me by Justme some time ago. This is the part that sets the tone:
"To pay for the taxes and fees set by the rulers must also citizens receive private debts. The time difference between the (early) tax deadline of the citizen and the (late) stage of his income explains and justifies Paul C. Martin for the collection of interest . This starts a spiral of debt that only by periodic economic crises and related revolutions can be interrupted."
The fact that Greece has defaulted in everything but name, can easily be seen by the stance the state has towards the civilians. The state owes more than 6,5 Billion Euros as tax refunds, unpaid dues for orders from the private sector and so on. Still, they demand taxes and you pay a penalty for not paying them in time, but they are not oblidged to pay the money they own. What makes it more tragical, is the fact that they don't accept any equalization for the money they own with the taxes! And when they get the money they just throw them to the endless pit of foreign debt. They run the economy dry!