A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: pjh3121 on August 17, 2012, 06:57:12 PM
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Following the conviction of Pussy Riot in Russia, Mark has issued the following statement:
"Whenever a political regime or religious establishment refuses to tolerate criticism, it advertises itself as repressive, backward and insecure. This verdict will diminish Russia in the eyes of the world. I condemn the prison sentences given to these young people and support the right to protest for everyone."
- MK
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MK makes a public political statement? Since when? I think what he has to say here though is brilliant.
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WOW! Totally unexpected. I hope after all he will tour in Russia in 2013. In 2010 he rejeckted us, as well as Finland and some more north and east Europe countries. About convictions
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Something I've always admired about MK is that he's managed to steer clear of the usual controversy and political statements made by a lot of bands (mostly as publicity I might add). I certainly wouldn't like to think that this is for publicity and that it just coincides with selling tickets for the BD tour and impending release of Privateering...
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dmg, take in mind that this is not "just another" political controversy but that it is directly linked to music - to a band of young people. It has another caliber than the "usual" stuff (let's say Dafur) because it is about music and MK speaks as a musician. I think he needs thumbs up for this.
LE
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MK makes a public political statement? Since when? I think what he has to say here though is brilliant.
He did before about syria:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9NltPsGZ0w&feature=youtu.be
at 00:44 minutes
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but that it is directly linked to music - to a band of young people.
Is it music? Mark likes it?
5bPH7rdeWSE
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Well, sort of... ???
You know what I mean - it is a band, no matter which style or musical direction.
LE
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Pussy Riot even havn't desecrated the church. I don't care style of music they play, but punishment is certainly not equal to their deed. This is not question of music, it's all about politics and regime. Mark said it with surprisingly great words, a lot better than Paul McCartney and others did.
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Well, sort of... ???
You know what I mean - it is a band, no matter which style or musical direction.
LE
Of course no matter which place used for their performance.
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Since the early days of DS Mark has been politicaly engaged (the SA ban).
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I guess I haven't payed that much attention his political statements. Seemed out of place to me, and you're right- I hope this isn't some attempt to drum up attention for the new album. I kind of doubt it though.
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Yeah, it's obviously great idea to piar himself in his age for sell 140,5 million albums instead of 140 ;D
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To my mind there is not one single regime in the whole wide world that cares about its people. It's just money and power that matters. Just today the Federal Constitutional Court in Germany decided about the question if a military intervention by the German army within the borders of Germany is legal: that means the possibility of actions against its own public. This constitutes as a massive breach of the separation of powers. That means the army, the police, the legislation and the jurisdiction have to separated, a lesson learned from the very dark times of history.....Anyone who is interested....http://www.nachdenkseiten.de/?p=14192
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To my mind there is not one single regime in the whole wide world that cares about its people. It's just money and power that matters.
Agreed. I think the last time a government truly cared about its people was in 1787 (United States) !
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yeah, as if...
i think it is good that he speaks out.
poor mother russia....tsar putin again shows his not so nice side..
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But only some, Fletch. Those who wanted to abolish slavery, including Jefferson and Washington, were outvoted. Some, like Hamilton wanted voting rights for only landowners, and certainly such rights for women was not even considered. Native Americans? The conquered to be contained.
Yes, I love my country deeply, and for the most part our laws and values and develeoped in a balanced way, after several disasterous laws and court decisions against women, blacks, native Americans, immigrants, religious groups etc etc. We've been sorting it out, bit by bit, and hopefully more civilized. Afraid, however, that we are jumping backward into intolerance with new laws restricting women's rights, special qualifications and Identity cards required to vote. New campaigns against same sex marriage, against the right to choose, to be able to come here to work and gain citizenship, to be productive and forward thinking members of a community. We are back to that old 20s and 30s KKK ranting and railing and about the dangers if any race or religion not accepted by the Daughters of the Revolution. Thus, the vicious and intolerable biased reporting and speechmaking by candidates and newscasters wanting to return to a theocracy of exclusion. This has become quite a rant, but the tone in this beautiful country has become frightening. Within one month--three mass killings!!!!! You can put it on the hate rhetoric by certain candidates, so called news commentators and so called news media.
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Mark has also lent his name and his prescence in videos to the Amnesty international campaign. It's not topromote his music, I think his comments and involvement are truly from his heart and have nthing to do with record sales or publicity
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Afraid, however, that we are jumping backward into intolerance
So true. Makes me worried about our future.
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I really don't get it when people assume mark does this to promote his album? That behavior runs in the family, look at David's posts on Facebook, I just think they were well educated.
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Also, look at his father's history--a true model for outspokenness against injustice.
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Knopfler brothers are very well educated. Just look at their lyrics. :)
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I too am wary of musicians who use their position to make political statements. However, I am sure Mark has thought a lot before releasing his statement and that he has not made it to boost ticket or CD sales. You can bet Russia is not included in the 2013 tour.
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What about some backing vocals by Pussy Riot on Mark's next album? :lol
And Ustas, whether Mark likes their music is not the point. The point is the two years they got for this. That's ridiculous and a shame. I hope there will be more Russians who dare to stand up against their president, like Pussy Riot and others did.
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I too am wary of musicians who use their position to make political statements. However, I am sure Mark has thought a lot before releasing his statement and that he has not made it to boost ticket or CD sales. You can bet Russia is not included in the 2013 tour.
A lot of musicians do use their position to make political statements. And I hope they keep on doing it. Freedom of speech is important so people have to fight for that. And I am also sure MK had a good thought before giving his statement.
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And Ustas, whether Mark likes their music is not the point. The point is the two years they got for this. That's ridiculous and a shame. I hope there will be more Russians who dare to stand up against their president, like Pussy Riot and others did.
I was just trying to be very accurate. But people, do you understand what you are talking about? I live there in Russia, and this situation does not looks like "black or white" for me. Pussy Riot (PR!) had a lot performances in Moscow, at public places like Red Square with songs like "Putin has pissed", "Putin go out, holy shit." etc. The band of stupid young art-extremists. Without any political programme or any idea. They were trying to shock public during latest 6 month but without any success. Nobody paid any attention for them. They wanted better PR! And they got it. The main terrible thing of it that Russian state machine provided with this great PR for them! How it's stupid! And immediately - 3 extremists begun to be political prisoners.
I do not have big respect for Putin, also I do not have any respect to Russian Ortodox Church, but I hate any kind of extremism and without any doubt I'm totally sure that Pussy Riot have to be punished. I just desagree with court's decision, 2 year in prison. I'm sure that 6 month of labor in hospice or hospital would be good punishment for them.
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and those 6 months they already spent behind bars anyways. so punishment enough (not saying they should've been punished in the first place)
But Ustas, what is with freedom of speech?
if they wanna get publicity and make silly songs about Putin pissing or whatever, so what? at the same time you have putin controlling all the media where he is "free" to say what he wants as well, isn't that what democracy is about? (amongst other things)
Everyone has the right for their opinion, and so mark did what he felt needed to be done. end of story imho.
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I would like to thank ustas for making his point clear in a very accuate and eloquent way.
LE
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But Ustas, what is with freedom of speech?
Are you kidding? There is not any problem. Today it's "depeche mode" in Russia to have any protest agianst Putin or government. And nobody was arested yet. Perhaps you would like to see Russia as GULAG forever.
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Ustas, don't get too upset, I fully understand that you protect your beloved country, so would I if someone would "attack" Belgium.
Still, what I do not get is why they were only arrested the moment they put it on the Internet?
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Thanks for the Voltaire quote, no one said it better.
And Ustas, we seem to agree pretty much: It the heaviness of the sentence that makes the Russian judges look strange. I'm not saying Pussy Riot shouldn't have been punished for playing circus in a church. But in other countries you would get something like a speeding ticket for that.
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Then again, in other countries you would be put to death.
Then again, in those countries the rules are as they are, and you know when you go there not to do a "pussy riot" ...
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Thanks for the Voltaire quote, no one said it better.
And Ustas, we seem to agree pretty much: It the heaviness of the sentence that makes the Russian judges look strange. I'm not saying Pussy Riot shouldn't have been punished for playing circus in a church. But in other countries you would get something like a speeding ticket for that.
Well said Railking, that's the thing that maybe counts the most. In the Netherlands I think you would get a fine or maybe when you have to go into court you would have maybe 10 hours communityservice or something like that, because of violating public order or violation of privacy. It would not be important what song you do or what your view about whatever is, it's just breaking some regular rules.
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Still, what I do not get is why they were only arrested the moment they put it on the Internet?
I do not know, and it does not matter for me. First time I have seen this video 2 or 3 month ago, when this information noise happend - it was broadcasted in tonight news by the state TV channel.
And Ustas, we seem to agree pretty much: It the heaviness of the sentence that makes the Russian judges look strange. I'm not saying Pussy Riot shouldn't have been punished for playing circus in a church. But in other countries you would get something like a speeding ticket for that.
The situation is not simple, as you discuss here. If the court would happend without information attack, these girls would get their 6 month and had a freedom yesterday. But when some politics (from both sides; in and out of Russia) began to use them as a "flag of freedom" and began to pressure the Russian authorities that caused a political battle, media war, shameless PR and aggression. So human rights activists, politics and local opposition are to blame for this situation (2 years of prison) as well as Russian authorities.
In the Netherlands I think you would get a fine or maybe when you have to go into court you would have maybe 10 hours communityservice or something like that,
What's about punishment for hashish (30g) in any EU state or in Netherlands? Or alcohol ppm limit for car drivers in USA or in France? Drinking water at the street during Ramadan in Dubai or in Berlin?
It's my last post here. I would not like to be involved in any political discussion more.
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I hope you mean that it was your last post in this thread and not at this forum in general.
LE
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Me too hopes you mean this thread Ustas, coz you are way too nice of a member to loose here.
I fully understand you do not want to post in this thread anymore.
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I hope you mean that it was your last post in this thread and not at this forum in general.
LE
Me too hopes you mean this thread Ustas, coz you are way too nice of a member to loose here.
I fully understand you do not want to post in this thread anymore.
Correct, this is latest last post in this thread. Thank you for understanding.
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Before you go, where is "room #6"?
:lol
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... and I like your picture! It's that guy from the Heavy Fuel video, right?
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Before you go, where is "room #6"?
:lol
So far away from here.
... and I like your picture! It's that guy from the Heavy Fuel video, right?
Exactly.
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I completely agree with you, ustas. The whole thing in my view is not about freedom of speech or Putin, but about breaking the society's rules.
And I don't see the fun of it. My mom has become more religious with advancing age, because she needs it whyever. What about her right to go to her church without any psycho art-extremists performing?
As very well said by ustas, women from PR have tried to get an attention many times through stupid performances – nobody carries. Then they have discovered the place, where it hurts many people.
Maybe I’m quite conservative, but I prefer to attend concerts of MK because I love his music and NOT BE COMPELLED by visiting an natural history museum to observe unannounced “performance” from PR like public 6ual act.
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Are you aware that countries, political systems and religions ARE NOT real ?
Are you aware that everything is planned to control and to be against your individuality, creating "false personalities" ?
I understand MK's words and it's not a matter of being "a fan".
Also, I say without any doubt that "FAN" is one of the UGLIEST word one can say.
In being a "fan" of someone, something, a govern, a country, a religion, YOU ARE NOT: you only can be an IDIOT.
The meaning of MK's words is simple.
If somebody REACTS to Pussy Riot (or whatever you want)'s performance, this MEANS that somebody is NOT happy with him, he/she CLING to somebody's statements, and he/she DEPENDS upon rubbish, that's not life.
I am not disturbed by anyone.
I don't need to go to the church to live well my life, I have my being, I have my intelligence, I have my heart, I have life itself.
So, a true, genuine and free human MUST HAVE the right to say or do what he/she wants, in RESPECT of life which is "don't kill anybody" that would never be the case of a true human.
REAL humanity is ONE: NATIONS are just an illusion, behind their mask they exist to support VIOLENCE, MAKING MONEY, MAKE PEOPLE BLIND AND SLAVE.
Have a nice life and cheers from "One World".
Angelo
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Well, we all live in the same planet, to me the only real difference between me and the rest of you is that we talk different languages in what respect to us...
Because the fact that you are from this or that country, or that your government is more or less good, more or less idiotic, its all a way to have the whole planet organized, and some having more luck than others.
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No better way to ruin a good friendship than to start discussing religion or politics. I'm staying out of this one.
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... and I like your picture! It's that guy from the Heavy Fuel video, right?
Exactly.
[/quote]
Randy Quaid
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No better way to ruin a good friendship than to start discussing religion or politics. I'm staying out of this one.
very Good Point Dusty, can we close this Topic people? Nothing Good can come from it...
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No better way to ruin a good friendship than to start discussing religion or politics. I'm staying out of this one.
Yes, religion and politics are the way some people earn his life, taking profit from the rest...
We are here for the music, and the beer!
;D
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I think the main message was posted (mark made a statement) some like it, some not. End of story.
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I don't think the thread should be closed, I was very interested to read Ustas' view. The coverage is completely one sided in the uk so it's interesting to see another viewpoint.
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This can develop in a not so nice discussion, reading your earlier post that is why I did so. .... Oh man,...choices...
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Well, I think that after last Ustas post the conversation remained calm about it, but I agree that the point of this thread was already achieved, so a closure would be fine, actually in cases like this, a board to post messages just to be read would be perfect.
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I think it's relevant - MK has released a "political" statement. This is a MK discussion forum. As long as people respect each others' views then it's ok... but I'm still not getting involved. :)
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As long as people respect others views and stay nice to eachother it's no problem.
Everyone has to keep in mind that we live in different countries, grew up a different way and because of that have different opinions.
If you grew up with less freedom than for example in the Netherlands then every improvement is a good one, even when we as dutchies think there's not much freedom overthere.
If everyone keep that in mind it's fine. I liked to read Ustas view as well, it makes me understand more. It also makes me humble and happy to live in a country where freedom of speech and whatever more is really the first right.
If everyone first count to 10 before posting and re-read his writing to assure it's not inflammable, rude or disrespectful, discussions can be done.
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I'm enjoying this discussion, and very interested in Ustas's comments. I think his comments on the history of the group are relevant and something to think about. I don't agree with the repressive punishment, but like Ingrid, I am used to a society that allows free speech. Whether we like it or not, not all governments have the same philosophy. I think that back in 1975, the girls would have been shut down long before and the world would never have even heard of the issue. Whether one agrees with them or not, the reality is that there is a price for civil disobedience, and yes, in the USA. On the other hand, assassins and attempted assassins can end up in cushy sanitoriums with 'weekends off.' Much too far the other way in my opinion.
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pfeew, lucky me that i reopened this thread...
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Closing this thread (too early) might have been interpreted as a "statement" in a certain way, too, so it is nice that it is still open and will end "naturally" in a few days/weeks time!
LE
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Thanks Pottel for re-opening. I really understand your concern, discussions about politics and religion can ruin friendships.
That's not the intention, so I hope people read the posts of Irisrose and me and try to react with in mind the view of people who grew up in a different country.
To make a comparison:
When you are grown up on a place on earth with hardly any food an water, you are happy to improve the quality of life by having a job and earn money. You are happy that you can buy food every day for yourself and your family and you feel rich.
We grew up in countries where it's all luxury, we have food, drinks, computers, concerts, buy stuff like TV's, laptops, iPhones, iPads, dishwashers etc. When we have to go back (say 5%) because of crisis everyone starts whining and grumbling because we have it so bad. We can't buy it all anymore, "only" one holiday a year or not a big flatscreen only a small one. Not able to buy a new laptop after 3 years but have to wait another 3 years. We feel poor.
Same goes with freedom of speech: when it was worse, you feel happy to have more freedom.
A lot of us only know that freedom of speech is a first right and we start to overreact sometimes:
You are allowed to say everything ..... but there's no NEED to say everything you might think of sometimes.
So try to think before you speak, others may be insulted or hurt. We have to live in a multicultural environment which is called world, everyone is living and thinking from a different perspective.
The french have a very good saying:
C
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Ingrid, I totally agree , thanks for the post.
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Is anyone surprised that Mark has chosen to do shows in Russia in 2013?
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Is anyone surprised that Mark has chosen to do shows in Russia in 2013?
why would i be suprised?
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Let's hope he won't get arrested! :o
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Maybe should have made that the last show of the tour! :lol