A Mark In Time
Previous Tours => 2012 Mark Knopfler & Bob Dylan Tour => Topic started by: communique on October 09, 2012, 11:59:19 PM
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I think that some of us are being a little too hard on Mark for his song selections and lack of guitar solos during this current tour. Lets be honest, Mark is in his sixties and we will never see the Alchemy-like guitar solos again. In fact, I'm not sure that Mark is physically cabable of doing that on a nightly basis any more. Being at the age he is, it is very likely that his fingers are starting to slow and the aches and pains are creeping in. I heard Eric Clapton say about himself in a recent interview that he can no longer play guitar the way he used to be able to. What I find remarkable is that Mark's song writing continues to evolve and is better than ever, as is his singing. I believe it's inevitable that the guitar abilities will diminish with time.
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Think I agree....
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Although Guy loyally denies it, I think that it is a distinct possibility. I'm nearly 57 & my hands are starting to show signs of Arthritis & Tendonitis which is affecting my playing. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Mark's hands are starting to suffer and that would definitely affect his ability to play fast extended solos night after night.
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I think that some of us are being a little too hard on Mark for his song selections and lack of guitar solos during this current tour. Lets be honest, Mark is in his sixties and we will never see the Alchemy-like guitar solos again. In fact, I'm not sure that Mark is physically cabable of doing that on a nightly basis any more. Being at the age he is, it is very likely that his fingers are starting to slow and the aches and pains are creeping in. I heard Eric Clapton say about himself in a recent interview that he can no longer play guitar the way he used to be able to. What I find remarkable is that Mark's song writing continues to evolve and is better than ever, as is his singing. I believe it's inevitable that the guitar abilities will diminish with time.
When I see close-ups of Mark`s hands , I`m always astonished : they look like hands of a young man! But I agree with you, I`m afraid that he may have aged-related problems with his fingers. But his voice is better than ever ! :D
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Even though some classic guitar players perform excellent well into their 80ies, their peak is surely past them. I guess it is not only the body but how the brain works as well. Maybe I will sound a bit heretic, but I am past my guitar hero phase, so may I suggest that he gets a couple of these fantastic young guitarists to play the solos and add to the sound? Maybe the turn to other musical idioms in his songwriting, doesn't only has to do with the "going back to the roots" thing, but also with the way you play the guitar which needs precision but relatively less complex patterns.
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I also agree but his catalog is vast enough to provide different "relaxing" songs from time to time.
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Even though some classic guitar players perform excellent well into their 80ies, their peak is surely past them. I guess it is not only the body but how the brain works as well. Maybe I will sound a bit heretic, but I am past my guitar hero phase, so may I suggest that he gets a couple of these fantastic young guitarists to play the solos and add to the sound? Maybe the turn to other musical idioms in his songwriting, doesn't only has to do with the "going back to the roots" thing, but also with the way you play the guitar which needs precision but relatively less complex patterns.
A little heretic ;D, a LOT I think ;D . Imagine : MK on stage,and when it comes to a solo, he goes some steps backwards and someone else plays HIS solos :o NOOO, I don`t want to see that. I would prefer slower songs, if he is not able to play the guitar as fast as in former times. Am I old-fashioned ?
But...maybe he just doesn`t like the faster songs anymore.
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Somebody called the Spanish inquisition! ;D Oh, I understand, but it is MK who doesn't care for the guitar hero thing as well. But the older songs' appeal has much to do with guitar virtuosity, and concert goers would really like to listen to these songs (TOL, etc). I have seen Peter Green do it, even with his 70ies solo albums, when he called other guitarists, like Snowy White. And I think that Nigel Watson plays most of the parts in his live shows. I don't mind, really, he has the voice, he will obviously play the signature guitar parts and well, maybe he will become a bit competitive and write and perform some new guitar based songs .
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Agree with all that has been said here.
I will just add that don't we all agree that Mark's songwriting has really gone from strength to strength and each song has so much meaning - almost like they have their own little story. The voice has greatly improved since he stopped smoking and maybe also it is because he has so much passion for what he has doing now.
Guitar playing wise yes agree we won't perhaps see the Sultans/Telegraph road 'fast lick' solo as like on the OES tour but I think personally he has changed his direction in that he actually makes the guitar 'Sing' nowadays albeit a bit slower but I think the guitar certainly accompanies his singing better if you know what I mean.
Some people may disagree with me but I will be biased (of course) but I love the sound of the Mark and his Fender MK strat as it certainly sounds good along side a lot of what he is doing now.
Remember also one of Mark's main influences was Hank B Marvin and I can now hear a lot of him in Mark's phrasing.
Of course we still get a bit of 'fast' phrasing during his solo's now and again - well to me that is good enough for me, Mark is still my favourite guitarist!
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I don't think it's about the fact that he's 63, as he always says, he uses guitars for writing songs ! I think it's not about technics, because when you listen to a song like Marbletown, Hill farmer's blues, Speedway or telegraphe road and R&J, believe me, it's still there and maybe more beautiful than ever. I prefer those version then Alchemy's version... Dire Straits is done, another time, another place !
It's all about wrinting songs and telling stories with beautiful guitar touch, unique and timeless.
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Somebody called the Spanish inquisition! ;D Oh, I understand, but it is MK who doesn't care for the guitar hero thing as well. But the older songs' appeal has much to do with guitar virtuosity, and concert goers would really like to listen to these songs (TOL, etc). I have seen Peter Green do it, even with his 70ies solo albums, when he called other guitarists, like Snowy White. And I think that Nigel Watson plays most of the parts in his live shows. I don't mind, really, he has the voice, he will obviously play the signature guitar parts and well, maybe he will become a bit competitive and write and perform some new guitar based songs .
Hmmm, yes, I think you are right in writing, that MK doesn
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I'm quite sure he can still perform at a high level - you don't just lose it overnight. He played better and more energetic than he did in years on the last tour in 2011 after all. As he isn't in the first signs of youth any more it is wise as Tunnel85 suggested to intersperse the faster songs with slower, easier to play ones (to relieve the strain).
I have noticed on the clip of I Used to Could that old Coxy is being used to give Mark a little relief in that song with his own extended solos and perhaps that will be going on in many others too and with other band members.
I don't agree his singing is better though. True, it is less rough sounding but is that a good thing? It has less character now. He also now sings with a lot less emotion than he used to; just listen to earlier versions of R&J or SoS. The more emotional vocal clearly lifts the song and makes the current versions sound dull by comparison. Now don't get me going about how his songwriting has degenerated... ;)
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dmg I totally agree with you (on the voice matter, glad someone else spotted it too) but I was just suggesting! ;)
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sometimes there's clues that he STILL CAN play at a high level : onTV shows like guitar stories, or the one he gave some lessons 2 years ago (can't remember the programm) he often play fast chicken picking lics like he used to do back in early DS days.
I can't remeber exactly what it was, but I heard him playing this style recently, and I thought :" why don't he play that way on his records ?"
I guess it's because he doesn't want to, not because he can't
just my 2 cents
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What I find remarkable is that Mark's song writing continues to evolve and is better than ever, as is his singing.
I have to disagree, on both counts. He is no doubt more prolific in his writing, in that he is churning out more songs but I don't think the songs are as good. Quantity does not equal quality. Also, as time goes by, he seems to be writing more of what I would call impressionistic lyrics, where you don't really know what the song is about.
I don't agree his singing is better though. True, it is less rough sounding but is that a good thing? It has less character now. He also now sings with a lot less emotion than he used to; just listen to earlier versions of R&J or SoS. The more emotional vocal clearly lifts the song and makes the current versions sound dull by comparison.
Agree with this completely.
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What I find remarkable is that Mark's song writing continues to evolve and is better than ever, as is his singing.
I have to disagree, on both counts. He is no doubt more prolific in his writing, in that he is churning out more songs but I don't think the songs are as good. Quantity does not equal quality. Also, as time goes by, he seems to be writing more of what I would call impressionistic lyrics, where you don't really know what the song is about.
I don't agree his singing is better though. True, it is less rough sounding but is that a good thing? It has less character now. He also now sings with a lot less emotion than he used to; just listen to earlier versions of R&J or SoS. The more emotional vocal clearly lifts the song and makes the current versions sound dull by comparison.
Agree with this completely.
+10
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+10000000000
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You mean he used to could? Oh, well!
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Playing the guitar is something you really need to keep doing in order for your abilities not to fade away. I don't think that has anything to do with age, I realize Mark is 63 years old, but when I look at those clips from the Guitar Stories program, he still seems very much able to play as well as he did in the past. To see him play along with the Sultans of swing demo proves he can still manage that. When John Ilsley asks him if he can still play along to the demo, Mark answers something along the lines of "You bet I stil can."
I do'n't think it's a matter of Mark not being able to play like he used to, but it seems to be more a matter of him actually wanting to.
Plus, he may not always come up with great fast paced licks and riffs and all that these days, but he is still more than able to come up with beautiful guitar work.
His guitar skills did not fade away, he simply uses those skills in a different way.
Maaike
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I
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Yes, he is going through a prolonged Ca Ira phase. I wonder when he will goon producing some guitar driven songs, again. Oh, as you said jbaent, I don't mind as long as he is alive and well and creating good music. I miss the guitar really bad, though. I am listening to "then play on" by Fleetwood mac, and I miss guitar even more.
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Ca Ira was the Roger Waters opera, wasnt it?
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Ca Ira was the Roger Waters opera, wasnt it?
Yes. In French it means "there's hope!" I'll cling onto whatever hope's going! ;D
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There's no doubt in my mind that Mark can still play fast, I know he still can. I just think that playing night after night on tour he may now be at the point in his life where he has to limit the amount of fast, demanding guitar solos. I agree that when is comes to his new studio songs that long, fast solos isn't typically what his songs are about anyhow. As for Mark's singing and songwriting getting better, well there seems to be some debate about that, so I guess is just comes down to personal taste.
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As far as I heard and read the interviews: he sees himself as a songwriter more than a guitarist.
So he writes songs he wants to write now and he plays songs he wants to play now. Those new written songs and the songs he wants to play will be in a similar range of music logically, so more melodies, less guitar.
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As far as I heard and read the interviews: he sees himself as a songwriter more than a guitarist.
So he writes songs he wants to write now and he plays songs he wants to play now. Those new written songs and the songs he wants to play will be in a similar range of music logically, so more melodies, less guitar.
He also sees himself as the weakest link in his band.
Regarding guitar vs melody, I think his melodies used to be much better.
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Yes, they used to be better because they were guitar driven. ;D
Really now, it is all personal taste and it is hard to keep up with all these changes if you were a DS fan. We are growing older too, and we nag about things to fellow fans. ;)
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Good point vgonis. Regarding changes, I could adapt. I don't care a lot about albums, only live stuff.
Blues turn ? Why not ? We want Silvertown blues and Millionaire blues
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As far as I heard and read the interviews: he sees himself as a songwriter more than a guitarist.
So he writes songs he wants to write now and he plays songs he wants to play now. Those new written songs and the songs he wants to play will be in a similar range of music logically, so more melodies, less guitar.
Mmmmmm......., let's see now. I know in interviews and such Mark says he sees himself more as a songwriter than a guitarist.
Regarding that, this is what I would say to him: "Dear Mark, I think your songwriting skills and your guitar skills go hand in hand. One simply complements the other."
Maaike
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Maybe I'm not the right person in this forum to comment on Mark's guitar playing but I'll have a shot at it. It seems to me that the music has to complement the song - but as that song is pereived by the person who wrote it. The way a song is seen by its author is not set in aspic but will change over time.
Maybe Mark felt that the sort of guitar playing that many here seem to miss better fitted the songs back then and what he was trying to put across at that time. He has moved on. The way he envisages and presents his new songs will affect the way he presents (or re-presents, perhaps) his older material when he performs it nowadays. This sort of development is not only all but inevitable, it is a necessary part of that development.
For the true artist, simply recreating the past is the road to atrophy. The original artistic spark will simply fade away. The longer that degeneration goes on, the harder it will be to get it back.
For a popular artist, the trick is to move forward in a way that does not alienate fans too much. You may lose some of the old fans but you hope to gain more new ones. In the end, though, the true artist has to make that change, has to break out from the past and has to start anew. He or she will have no choice. It is part of the artistic sensibility.
And the guitar playing style will follow wherever the song-writing muse takes it.
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I think the change to more melodic, less guitar driven songs is both forced and deliberate at the same time. It's obvious that Mark isn't half the virtuoso he used to be (just look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZuoslMEYOI), but I also believe that he's tired of the - very limiting - guitar hero status and wants to prove himself as a songwriter. And he's one of the best songwriters going, no doubt.
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Come on people, let the man grow old and as an artist. Its not 1985 anymore.
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Yep, but I guess we all expect a new ToL or TR in every new release.
And sometimes it seems it almost happened. I personally think that if MK would have waited (is this correct?, sorry, I'm too bad writting in English ??? ??? ???) a little more, Hill Farmer's Blues and Yon Two Crows could be developed to stand side by side with the old classics.
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Touring takes its toll due to all the traveling, same routine day in day out. Add to that Mark's back problems from two years ago, plus the fatigue on his body from his motercycle accident that cancelled the 2003 Ragpicker's Dream Tour, and you can see why he is starting his concerts with What It Is, the only fast guitar song on his set lists so far this tour. He gets that out of his system at the start, when he is fresh, follows it up with either Corned Beef City or Cleaning My Gun, another mid to fast tempo song, then the slower songs for the rest of the night. Also, people here are commenting that MK is not playing with Bob like in Europe. Is it possible that this is due to Mark's decision? Mark's reviews are excellent so far, so maybe he doesn't want to wear himself down playing with Bob, so that he has the energy for the next night. Just a theory of course, but it may fit the pattern.
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I think the change to more melodic, less guitar driven songs is both forced and deliberate at the same time. It's obvious that Mark isn't half the virtuoso he used to be (just look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZuoslMEYOI), but I also believe that he's tired of the - very limiting - guitar hero status and wants to prove himself as a songwriter. And he's one of the best songwriters going, no doubt.
Agreed...I think he grew tired of the whole 'guitar-god' thing. Granted he still obviously loves to play...he still sprinkles plenty of sublime but deliberate little riffs throughout his songs. I love the outro in "Blood and Water"..probably one of the best he's recorded of late. That being said...the whole of the song seems to be more important these days..the guitar riffs being an integral part..instead of being out in front. As far as not joining Bob on stage so far...I think it's merely due to a lack of an 'invitation' from Bob so far. If Bob asked Mark to step out and join him...you know he would without hesitation.
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The Songwriter stuff has growed over the last years... From "Oh, I love the guitar, but I also feel myself as a songwriter" in earlier years now he says "Guitar is only an instrument that helps me to write songs I am a songwriter in the first place".... However, the really great songwriting stuff was written in earlier years... The last albums lack a little of this high quality songwriting stuff...
LE
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The Songwriter stuff has growed over the last years... From "Oh, I love the guitar, but I also feel myself as a songwriter" in earlier years now he says "Guitar is only an instrument that helps me to write songs I am a songwriter in the first place".... However, the really great songwriting stuff was written in earlier years... The last albums lack a little of this high quality songwriting stuff...
LE
have to agree to disagree about the quality of the recent songs. his recent albums have shown he has become even more of a great song writer. his last two albums GL and P show a superb marriage between simple chord arrangment and incisive lyrics. this is a skill very few people can master. less is more! i wouldnt care if i never heard TOL, BIA, SS, RAJ ever again. these songs are living in the past.
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;)
I was more thinking about One Last Matinee, 5.15am, Devil Baby, Secondary Waltz... stuff that I would call great song writing... so it is a little easy to say in earlier years he was a guitar hero and today he is more of a songwriter. He always used to write great stuff, with our without guitar hero status....
I find some of his recent stuff too lightweighted, Not deep enough etc....
What you say about "less is more" is a valid thought of course, one I should think about more...
(What's better than a little MK discussion on an early Sunday morning... ;D )
LE
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LE +1
I hate to admit it, but i have been keeping my opinion to myself, because I didn't want to spoil the good mood. But I think that apart from expectations that were too high anyway (and they always include guitar driven songs) the level of songwriting is not up there with the previous albums, not even KTGC. I don't know if further listening will change this feeling, but I, sort of, avoid listening to it. It is not, I believe, a matter of one or two CDs. After all, both CDs are nearly 90 minutes, so with the CD standards, only 2-3 songs more than one CD. (I know that is not the way to count an album, but still...)
The posh production doesn't hep either. I mean it is fantastic to be able to listen to such detail, but then there is the matter of actual songs.
The problem IMO, is that we have the very first MK album that his songs are more ordinary. They have refrains that take up most of the song and are the strong part of the song. In the past we had some examples, but most of his songs were structured in a different way. And they are mellow like Barry Manilow. I don't say it as a bad thing, I say this is not MK.
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;)
I was more thinking about One Last Matinee, 5.15am, Devil Baby, Secondary Waltz... stuff that I would call great song writing... so it is a little easy to say in earlier years he was a guitar hero and today he is more of a songwriter. He always used to write great stuff, with our without guitar hero status....
I find some of his recent stuff too lightweighted, hot deep enough etc....
What you say about "less is more" is a valid thought of course, one I should think about more...
(What's better than a little MK discussion on an early Sunday morning... ;D )
LE
maybe i find the words these days a more attractive proposition than the lick or the riff. the words to remembrance day, get lucky, yon two crows, so far from the clyde to name but a few are poignant, reflective and deeply moving. his lyrical style is at once engaging and has the skill of the novelist such as graeme green or george orwell. the idea of being able to express ideas in plain language is indeed a gift. mk can say in a few words what other songwriters could never achieve. god this sounds like one of my university essays from 30 years ago!!! ha ha!!!!!
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Oh, don't get me wrong, you put perfectly well in words what I like so much about MK's songwriting! And I am not a guitar solo junkie at all. It is only that I don't find these skills too much on Privateering. (Grahame Greene, George Orwell, very well chosen from you). And it might be coincidence, but the songs you listed as an example are all apart from Yon Two Crows NOT from Privateering ;D
His lyrics are, as said before, very very important to me. "to express ideas in plain language is indeed a gift", your words, I couldn't agree more. But WHAT he expresses on Privateering is, from MY point of view, too arbitrary.
But as Vgonis already mentioned in his post, I also do not want to spoil the album for anyone, and the music itself is still great, so maybe I just should play it again today, (first time after three weeks). I might come to a new, fresh, changes conclusion after all!!!
LE
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Mark's songwrighting has always been superb. The songs that are special to me are the ones that touch the soul, either through the lyrics or guitar. You''ll know what I mean when you get either goosebumps and/or tears in the eyes! Those songs that come to mind include Iron Hand, Don't You Get It, Shangrila, Are We In Trouble Now, Piper To The End, Where Do You Think Your Going, Speedway, Silvertown Blues, Praire Wedding, and so many more. Follow The Ribbon is right up there too :D
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occupation blues anyone? also the perfect song to me is just that, the perfect song...
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Going back to the first post about the selection of songs to perform on this tour... I think that, after seeing that clip of Yon Two Crows from the other thread, we can safely add +1 to the guitar-driven songs on this current tour ;)
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Going back to the first post about the selection of songs to perform on this tour... I think that, after seeing that clip of Yon Two Crows from the other thread, we can safely add +1 to the guitar-driven songs on this current tour ;)
Yes sir! From viewing this short clip, this live version of Yon Two appears to kick some serious ass! I can't wait to see it in Toronto and Montreal!
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;)
I was more thinking about One Last Matinee, 5.15am, Devil Baby, Secondary Waltz... stuff that I would call great song writing...
The "great songwriting" songs you mention are some of the very lyrics-driven ones. They're great, yes, but when I say he's a better songwriter as ever, I don't just mean the lyrics. Melodically he's also at the top of his game. If you need examples from the new album, take "Haul Away", "Seattle" or "The Dream of the Drowned Submariner". These songs are very simple lyrically (which mustn't be a bad thing), but the melodies are hauntingly beautiful. Coming up with melodies as good as these is just as difficult and admirable as playing virtuoso guitar, I'd say. I don't know many songwriters who are (or have been) on this level.
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Funny that you realized it. I didn't. However it is supporting my opinion - and what I wrote earlier about that lyrics are so important for me. Seems it all works on a unconscious level! You are right about those melodies you mentioned and I might add that I don't think that these are BAD or something..
LE
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Hm, interesting topic.
We're all aware of those less guitar driven songs but...I'm not sure is it has to do anything with age, in Mark's case. Following that logic, guitarists like Vai, Malmsteen etc etc, should not be able to play 90% of their repertoire after they get over 50ties???
Mark was never that fast, if we can call him a fast at all. But that's not the point. The good side of it and also the reason why i think he will be able to correctly play any of his song for a long long time, is exactly that balanced amount of speed, soul, and technique in his playing.
Maybe he just thinks that if you put more guitar into song, you loose on other (more important) aspects of the song. I personally would disagree with that, but as he said himself - "guitar is just the thing i used to write songs with it".