A Mark In Time

General Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: twm on November 07, 2012, 12:26:51 PM

Title: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA (Political subject changed)
Post by: twm on November 07, 2012, 12:26:51 PM
Just a name to me.

And, anyway, if Mark had a vote in the US of A, I'm pretty certain he'd go for Obama.
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: Jules on November 07, 2012, 12:48:55 PM
Just a name to me.

And, anyway, if Mark had a vote in the US of A, I'm pretty certain he'd go for Obama.

He is listed for voting in the UK

 ;)
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: dmg on November 07, 2012, 01:12:12 PM
Just a name to me.

And, anyway, if Mark had a vote in the US of A, I'm pretty certain he'd go for Obama.

She's a pop star who did campaigning for Bob.  Can't sing a note and famous more for her latex attire! ;D

Don't understand the celebrity campaigning thing.  It's a cultural thing obviously, but it just would make me angry if Mark campaigned for Cameron or Milliband!  It's just cheap and tacky and I can't believe anyone would actually change or decide their vote upon a celebrity campaign. ???
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: Rkd on November 07, 2012, 04:12:07 PM
Here's pretty close to what I said last night in Madison. I said from the stage that we had to play better than good tonight, that the president was here today and he
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: dmg on November 07, 2012, 05:01:29 PM
I'm often reminded of the Robert Redford film The Candidate at the American election times.  A truly great film.
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: twm on November 07, 2012, 05:18:27 PM
Celebrity endorsement does happen in the UK but it's bit less prevalant and generally a bit less obvious. 

A whole gang of people went out on tour in support of Labour back in Kinnock's time - Red Wedge springs to mind. I think Thatcher had some celebs endorse her, too.  I seem to recall that the SNP had some celebs on board, as well. The only Lib Dem celeb supporter, however, that comes to mind is John Cleese. And I think there were celebs supporting candidates in the London mayoral election. As I say, it does happen here.

Whether any of that actually influences voters, I have no idea but presumably the political parties do, otherwise they would prevent or at least discourage it.

If I lived in the States, I would be more concerned about the shadowy groups who finance some of the "attack ads" on television. They seemingly operate anonymously, so lack transparency, at arm's length from the candidates and without any oversight, so could be anyone. How do you know that the money isn't being put up by some foreign governemnt, with ill-intent towards the USA?

Getting back to the UK, I was right about Red Wedge. I've just looked it up:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Wedge
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: dmg on November 07, 2012, 05:30:17 PM
I'd also be concerned about Obama's birthplace.  If, as is expected, he wasn't born in the USA then he is a crook and a con man for hiding this.  Why did he not produce papers when asked recently?  His favourite charity lost out on $5m in any case.  Poor show Obama. :thumbsdown
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: Rkd on November 07, 2012, 05:41:09 PM

If I lived in the States, I would be more concerned about the shadowy groups who finance some of the "attack ads" on television. They seemingly operate anonymously, so lack transparency, at arm's length from the candidates and without any oversight, so could be anyone. How do you know that the money isn't being put up by some foreign governemnt, with ill-intent towards the USA?


Exactly! Citizens United is the worst thing that ever happened to this country.
Quote from: dmg

link=topic=2775.msg60442#msg60442 date=1352305817
I'd also be concerned about Obama's birthplace.  If, as is expected, he wasn't born in the USA then he is a crook and a con man for hiding this.  Why did he not produce papers when asked recently?  His favourite charity lost out on $5m in any case.  Poor show Obama. :thumbsdown

Barack Obama has produced his birth certificate. No other candidate or elected official has ever been asked  to do this.
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: dmg on November 07, 2012, 05:47:23 PM


Barack Obama has produced his birth certificate. No other candidate or elected official has ever been asked  to do this.
[/quote]

Sorry.  I thought when Romney requested this, Obama laughed it off on some talk show.
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: twm on November 07, 2012, 06:46:53 PM
The general point about the birth certificate is that it is a requirement that the President of the USA has to be born in the USA. Thus, for example,Schwarzenegger could never be President even if his political ambitions lay in that direction.The question was posed by Republicans in order to undermine the legitimacy of Obama's presidency. 

The ironic thing is, if you go back to the 2008 election, his opponent, John McCain, was the one who could have been questioned on this score. McCain was actually born in the Panama Canal Zone, his father having been posted to the US Navy base there, with his family. Whether that base was sovereign US territory at the time McCain was born, I do not know but it is clearly outside the states that make up the United States.

Personally, I did not then, and do not now, question McCain's legitimacy as a Presidential candidate, whatever the legal niceties involved.  IMHO, there was a certain hypocrisy, on the part of the Republicans, in challenging Obama in this way and I find it difficult to put out of my mind the thought that, underlying this challenge, was an element of racism.
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: dmg on November 07, 2012, 06:53:52 PM
The general point about the birth certificate is that it is a requirement that the President of the USA has to be born in the USA. Thus, for example,Schwarzenegger could never be President even if his political ambitions lay in that direction.The question was posed by Republicans in order to undermine the legitimacy of Obama's presidency. 

The ironic thing is, if you go back to the 2008 election, his opponent, John McCain, was the one who could have been questioned on this score. McCain was actually born in the Panama Canal Zone, his father having been posted to the US Navy base there, with his family. Whether that base was sovereign US territory at the time McCain was born, I do not know but it is clearly outside the states that make up the United States.

Personally, I did not then, and do not now, question McCain's legitimacy as a Presidential candidate, whatever the legal niceties involved.  IMHO, there was a certain hypocrisy, on the part of the Republicans, in challenging Obama in this way and I find it difficult to put out of my mind the thought that, underlying this challenge, was an element of racism.

I always thought that that McCain had a chip on his shoulder! ;D
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: Pottel on November 07, 2012, 07:57:09 PM
Forgive me if I've said this before, Pottel, but the Series of Dream video uses a different take of the song from the one given to the guy that made the video. I'm sure I have said this before, so I'll say "sorry" again.
got link?
Not sure i've seen that vid. But I simply love the bootleg series version.
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: Rkd on November 07, 2012, 08:07:03 PM
.
Personally, I did not then, and do not now, question McCain's legitimacy as a Presidential candidate, whatever the legal niceties involved.  IMHO, there was a certain hypocrisy, on the part of the Republicans, in challenging Obama in this way and I find it difficult to put out of my mind the thought that, underlying this challenge, was an element of racism.

Spot on!
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: Rkd on November 07, 2012, 08:18:21 PM

I always thought that that McCain had a chip on his shoulder! ;D


John McCain was not my choice of candidate but he is an honorable man that went through a lot in Vietnam. I was never more proud of him than at this point of his campaign.

http://youtu.be/3c-Ijky95dc

I hate to even reference this because of how stupid and bigoted the woman is in this video. Please don't judge all Americans by her!
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: dmg on November 07, 2012, 08:19:59 PM
What does this have to do with the concert?  Politics and religion everyone! :)
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: Rkd on November 07, 2012, 08:20:50 PM
Enough politics for today.  I am now leaving to see the MK/BD concert in St. Paul.  :)
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: dmg on November 07, 2012, 08:25:10 PM
Enough politics for today.  I am now leaving to see the MK/BD concert in St. Paul.  :)

Nicely handled McCain!

Enjoy your concert.  Last time MK played in St Paul I think was in early August 1985 at the Roy Wilkins.
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: Pottel on November 07, 2012, 08:54:30 PM
Great show that was!
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: sweetsurrender on November 07, 2012, 09:49:50 PM
Just a name to me.

And, anyway, if Mark had a vote in the US of A, I'm pretty certain he'd go for Obama.


I certainly hope not.  I'm upset and fear for the next 4 years !!! :thumbsdown

Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: Pottel on November 07, 2012, 10:06:42 PM
How do you mean ssurrender?
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: herlock on November 07, 2012, 10:21:30 PM
Just a name to me.

And, anyway, if Mark had a vote in the US of A, I'm pretty certain he'd go for Obama.


I certainly hope not.  I'm upset and fear for the next 4 years !!! :thumbsdown

This makes me realize that we know very little about Mark's political views; he very seldom express himself (exception recently with the Pussy Riots); you would think that studying the lyrics of his songs might help, but I don't think so, since 1) they are often rather cryptic and 2) they are focused on the daily life issues of people rather than on big political schemes... I tried to figure out the deep meaning of "Don't crash the ambulance", but I realize that it could be interpreted in different ways.

There is this little voice in me telling me that Mark did not approve the invasion of Irak, and that his views would tend to be more liberal than conservative, but I have no evidence, I could be wrong. What do you think ?

Gosh, we know so little about our hero actually !

Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: vgonis on November 07, 2012, 10:26:29 PM
Sweet surrender, I, too, am very interested in this. Here in Greece and as I understand in Europe as well, Obama seems like the best solution and the previous Republican presidents are usually connected with wars all over the world, rubbing shoulders with big corporations and  bringing the economy down, just not revealing it. I know that these accusations can stand for Democrats as well (Clinton but not Carter). I also understand that the citizens of each country care first about their prosperity. And Obama might not have delivered that. But Bush administration has not helped either.

Anyway, I am standing outside and can quite understand, so I am very interested in what you have to say. And maybe open a new thread about it? USA and the world?
And of course I would love to read from all our USA AMITERs.
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: twm on November 08, 2012, 01:14:53 AM
McCain: I'm surprised that McCain doesn't have a really big chip on his shoulder. Please, dmg, do read up about him. As indicated earlier, he survived horrendous treatment at the hands of the North Vietnamese  and did so in an honorable way. Also, in a primary against Bush years ago, he was subject to the most scurrilous slurs and outright lies about both himself and his family. Whilst I did not agree with all his politics, he was a fairly striaght talker (for a politician!). My beef with him is his choosing Sarah Palin as his running mate - it undermined his bid for the White House, it raised her to unwarranted national prominence and it encouraged the rise of the Tea Party; as it happens, I believe that the GOP will come to regret the influence that the Tea Party now holds over it - and may already do so.

Anyway, this all came out of Dylan's comment at Madison. Though Dylan is less overt about his politics than many in showbiz, he did play for Clinton and family in Washington after Clinton's election, he did get an award from Clinton and he did get another award from Obama.

As for Mark, I do believe him to be broadly liberal (with a small "l") but can put forward no solid eveidence to support my view. At the same time and whether true or false, it is not the most significant aspect of appreciating his music.
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: sweetsurrender on November 08, 2012, 01:30:54 AM
Sweet surrender, I, too, am very interested in this. Here in Greece and as I understand in Europe as well, Obama seems like the best solution and the previous Republican presidents are usually connected with wars all over the world, rubbing shoulders with big corporations and  bringing the economy down, just not revealing it. I know that these accusations can stand for Democrats as well (Clinton but not Carter). I also understand that the citizens of each country care first about their prosperity. And Obama might not have delivered that. But Bush administration has not helped either.

Anyway, I am standing outside and can quite understand, so I am very interested in what you have to say. And maybe open a new thread about it? USA and the world?
And of course I would love to read from all our USA AMITERs.
?
vgonis,

We might need a permission from the editor in charge to open up a political thread , don't we?
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: vgonis on November 08, 2012, 01:40:01 AM
twm, I have been reading this book "The long-player goodbye" by Travis Elborough, And on the 8th chapter page 220, he mentions the Folkways record Bob Dylan v A.J. Weberman. Was this record issued ever? Is it any good? Any details on the content?
Actually the whole 8th chapter devotes most of its space on Dylan and the Beatles and it is an interesting and fun read, so far!

Sweet surrender, not a political discussion really. General discussion with a political fixation.  ;) I understand your reserves, I only suggested it because I am not an American, so I am not really familiar with the situation. I only know what I read and listen here in Greece, and in a nutshell, it is always favorable about Obama. Fletch started one thread about Europe some time ago and I have contributed heavily, so I don't see why not an American one! Would you like me to start it, or would you do the honors? It is interest and curiosity. After all we live in a big village and after 2008 even the non believers got the picture-the butterfly effect.
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA (Political subject changed)
Post by: Fletch on November 08, 2012, 10:51:48 AM
When it comes to a vote about the man, Obama vs Romney, the outcome always seems inevitable.
However I understand a little about the Republican ideal of 'small government - lower taxes - slash debt' to understand many people voted for Romney simply because they fear an "unAmerican" future.
Dealing with 15 trillion dollars of debt is no small feat, and there are many viewpoints about how (or if) to pay it down.
I thank God that the USA has the largest Navy and Nuclear military in the world otherwise I fear it would be declared bankrupt... but as long as they keep enough carrier groups operating it will be difficult for other significant countries to see the US descend into chaos. What do you think ?
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA # SPOILER AHEAD
Post by: dmg on November 08, 2012, 01:01:49 PM
McCain: I'm surprised that McCain doesn't have a really big chip on his shoulder. Please, dmg, do read up about him. As indicated earlier, he survived horrendous treatment at the hands of the North Vietnamese  and did so in an honorable way. Also, in a primary against Bush years ago, he was subject to the most scurrilous slurs and outright lies about both himself and his family. Whilst I did not agree with all his politics, he was a fairly striaght talker (for a politician!). My beef with him is his choosing Sarah Palin as his running mate - it undermined his bid for the White House, it raised her to unwarranted national prominence and it encouraged the rise of the Tea Party; as it happens, I believe that the GOP will come to regret the influence that the Tea Party now holds over it - and may already do so.

Anyway, this all came out of Dylan's comment at Madison. Though Dylan is less overt about his politics than many in showbiz, he did play for Clinton and family in Washington after Clinton's election, he did get an award from Clinton and he did get another award from Obama.

As for Mark, I do believe him to be broadly liberal (with a small "l") but can put forward no solid eveidence to support my view. At the same time and whether true or false, it is not the most significant aspect of appreciating his music.

The chip on McCain's shoulder was perhaps a frozen oven chip...

http://www.mccain.co.uk/chipstonight/?gclid=CPyZp9qnv7MCFXDLtAodXCMAqA

It was a joke to lighten the mood.  I really don't think religion and politics should be discussed;  it usually ends up in heated discussion or arguments.

Personally, I don't like Obama for what he did to BP over the Gulf oil spill and no Brit should like him for that.  BP was one of Britain's biggest companies and extended the life of North Sea oil due to advanced deep drilling techniques.  We have a lot to thank them for.  On a personal note, many employees here were worried over jobs and pensions including my Dad (who is retired).  As it turned out his pension was fine but he had to miss a years share issue and had a worrying time.  I guess Obama didn't think about what he was doing to us here in the UK, especially as the rig was being run by Americans.
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA (Political subject changed)
Post by: sweetsurrender on November 08, 2012, 08:03:40 PM
When it comes to a vote about the man, Obama vs Romney, the outcome always seems inevitable.
However I understand a little about the Republican ideal of 'small government - lower taxes - slash debt' to understand many people voted for Romney simply because they fear an "unAmerican" future.
Dealing with 15 trillion dollars of debt is no small feat, and there are many viewpoints about how (or if) to pay it down.
I thank God that the USA has the largest Navy and Nuclear military in the world otherwise I fear it would be declared bankrupt... but as long as they keep enough carrier groups operating it will be difficult for other significant countries to see the US descend into chaos. What do you think ?

The national debt is probably bigger than 15 T. With the budget ceiling coming up at the end of the year, defense budget will be substantially cut which means US will  no longer boast her military power for the world to see.  I read somewhere that what is left of some of the nuclear air craft carriers will be scrapped as well.  If you have a POTUS who is anti - america, the world will surely see America descend into chaos. On second thought,  people here aren't as motivated as people in Spain or Greece to take to the streets and protest.  vgonis , what do you think in reference to your own country?
Title: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA (Political subject changed)
Post by: vgonis on November 09, 2012, 07:57:52 PM
(Sweetsurrender, thank you for your PM as well. It was like discribing the situation in Greece. )
 
It is a bit difficult to discuss such matters with people you don't know. Most probably your words will be misunderstood. I don't really mind if somebody gets the wrong idea about me. It is that we actually have separate monologues that commence from quotes by others that we only read and we add meanings of our own, depending mostly on the idea we have shaped for the other person  and our current mood. So please, in such discussions, always try to see the best in people's answers and excuse the obvious ignorance. As MK said "we have just one world, but we live in different ones".


When it comes to a vote about the man, Obama vs Romney, the outcome always seems inevitable.
However I understand a little about the Republican ideal of 'small government - lower taxes - slash debt' to understand many people voted for Romney simply because they fear an "unAmerican" future.
Dealing with 15 trillion dollars of debt is no small feat, and there are many viewpoints about how (or if) to pay it down.
I thank God that the USA has the largest Navy and Nuclear military in the world otherwise I fear it would be declared bankrupt... but as long as they keep enough carrier groups operating it will be difficult for other significant countries to see the US descend into chaos. What do you think ?
   

I believe that with this answer Fletch, more or less, expresses the thoughts and estimates of most of the world, or at least what we call the "western" world. If I wanted to elaborate a bit (even though I hinted it in my previous post) I would go on and say that all this power, does not actually come from the country itself, but from the economical powers that use the military and the economy  of the USA as a special weight to play their dirty games. I fear that if and when these powers  stop having so many interests invested or stop gaining as much as they desire or understand that they lose their influence, they will have no problem, no second thoughts but leave the ship to sink.

"There is no America, there is no democracy"
http://youtu.be/jxiT30N6ti4

I think that when you are born and grown in this line of thinking, there is no way back, because you have not learnt any other way. And this is exactly the American way of life, that have been preached through art, movies and commercials to the whole planet. Unfortunately the American dream has become just that, a dream. A dream that like all dreams can claim your life while you sleep. And the world sleeps. When the end of the cold war came with the fall of the Berlin wall and the Soviet Union, people thought that we could all live the American dream. If you work hard you will find your place in the sun. I guess in this sense we are all Americans and we live the American dream.  Or not?
Some questions about all the western countries.
Is the statistics we hear about unemployment correct? Is the distribution of wealth fair? Is the way things work fair? How can you call getting a fortune out of stocks and bonds fair? How can you pile money in the banks and influence political decisions to get more? Is it fair to have patents for life saving medicine and selling medicine only to the ones that can afford them? Is this human or animal action? Is this logic or dementia? How can you call decocratic a sytem that you hardly know the person you vote for?
Countries were original constituted in order to protect people with common beliefs, ideologies, and most of the times common religion and language. The key in this was the interest and attention for the "OTHER" person. Unfortunately when money got in the equation of life and was transformed from a means, (a tool for an easier life,) to an end, a puproseless end, the attention for the "other" person vanished and we became egocentric. Now they present us with a plan for Global economy, global government and global lobotomy. But if you don't love and feel for the "OTHER" it doesn't really matter if there are country boundaries or not. It doesn't matter if we are called citizens of the world or Greek, American, German, Canadian and so on. There are going to be wars for other reasons, and we are going to call them civil wars. I really find peculiar discussing about the economic crisis as the only and absolute problem when the whole problem rather begins from a crisis of existence, the purpose of human life and the inevitability of death. It is a metaphysical question, that affects our lives and appears as an economical and  social problem, because people drunk and intoxicated by commersialism have forgotten to answer. The answer is unconditional love. To care about your fellow human, without any other interest. People claim that this is utopian, but it is only utopian because nobody can force you to practice it. It doesn't work this way. It should be the result of an education system that cares about the human values. About the human life as the biggest value of all. 
   
 It is of little importance that people in Greece or Spain get out on the street to protest. Laws diminishing our lives are passed anyway in the parliaments. Argentina went through a similar phase. It hasn't recovered yet, while people keep suffering and life expectancy has dropped. It doesn't matter if they want to change and save themselves. What is important is if the "investors" will let them be saved. And Argentina is a vast country, bigger than both Greece and Spain, with more natural resources and less people than Greece and Spain put together. It can actually produce more than its people can consume.
But back to the USA. Very few people outside the USA can even begin to understand what is going on. And I tend to believe that very few people inside the USA understand as well. First of all because money is so important that if you have any or if you don't have any and how much you've got (and lately how you have invested them, but it is actually the same as having or not having) interferes with your personal view of the world. Obama and Romney. I guess you can find many differences in their programs, but were there enough AS PROMISES to help you chose for any of them? Politics is actually ideas put to use or better put to test. A good idea might turn out bad. Obama was introduced to Europe and Greece as reformer. Trying to change the way things are, about health care, taxation, and foreign policy. I don't know if he had succeeded in any of them, sometimes good ideas take time to flourish and have powerful enemies (the corporations etc)  As for foreign policy, in Greece things are so bad that we don't believe they can get worse, and yet somehow they do, month after month, day after day.   But some say that with Romney things would be even worse.

Sorry for the long post. It might seem out of topic, but I didn't intent it to be.
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA (Political subject changed)
Post by: Pottel on November 09, 2012, 11:55:13 PM
What is American about a POTUS who, in his past at Bain has cost so many American workers their jobs an livelihoods? All for the profit of investors go are already too rich ( and no, I ain't got nothing against earning money, and a lot of it, it is the way these kinds of companies/people earn money that I do not approve of)

And for me, that is what Romney stands for, screw the little man and cut taxes for the rich.
Then again, I got no real right to talk as I do not live in the US, plain and simple.
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA (Political subject changed)
Post by: Rkd on November 10, 2012, 12:26:21 AM
Quote from: Pottel link=topic=2785.msg60505#msg60505 date=1352501713
Then again, I got no real right to talk as I do not live in the US, plain and simple.
[/quote

Maybe not but I find it endlessly interesting and enlightening to hear what others from around the world have to say about the US. :)

I have no idea how I managed to highlight my words instead of Pottel's. ???
Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA (Political subject changed)
Post by: sweetsurrender on November 10, 2012, 01:27:20 AM
What is American about a POTUS who, in his past at Bain has cost so many American workers their jobs an livelihoods? All for the profit of investors go are already too rich ( and no, I ain't got nothing against earning money, and a lot of it, it is the way these kinds of companies/people earn money that I do not approve of)

And for me, that is what Romney stands for, screw the little man and cut taxes for the rich.
Then again, I got no real right to talk as I do not live in the US, plain and simple.

pottel,

that's exactly what American people had to suffer through the 4 years of Obama's administration.  The biggest robbery in humankind. Baling out all those too big to fail banks.  And nobody is accountable for any of the actions.  And the American people took it  in strides and did nothing about it. That to me is unforgiven.  I'm a supporter of neither party.  Romney is just a lesser of two evils.   

Obama is creating centralized system from cradle to grave. Making people dependent on the handouts to win votes to further his own agendas.  The way I see it is honest hard-working folks who pay their taxes and oblige the laws are supporting the 40 some milllions who are on government welfare. There's no incentives to get off their lazy butts and look for jobs.  However you look at it, there's fraud at every level.

I think I'll just go cool off listening to Mark's to make my day.  " baloney again"

Title: Re: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA (Political subject changed)
Post by: Pottel on November 10, 2012, 09:54:01 AM
I see no difference ( fraud at every level) to 99% of most other countries ;)
Wake up and smell the roses surrender ;)
Title: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA (Political subject changed)
Post by: Justme on November 10, 2012, 04:02:27 PM
(Sweetsurrender, thank you for your PM as well. It was like discribing the situation in Greece. )
 
It is a bit difficult to discuss such matters with people you don't know. Most probably your words will be misunderstood. I don't really mind if somebody gets the wrong idea about me. It is that we actually have separate monologues that commence from quotes by others that we only read and we add meanings of our own, depending mostly on the idea we have shaped for the other person  and our current mood. So please, in such discussions, always try to see the best in people's answers and excuse the obvious ignorance. As MK said "we have just one world, but we live in different ones".


When it comes to a vote about the man, Obama vs Romney, the outcome always seems inevitable.
However I understand a little about the Republican ideal of 'small government - lower taxes - slash debt' to understand many people voted for Romney simply because they fear an "unAmerican" future.
Dealing with 15 trillion dollars of debt is no small feat, and there are many viewpoints about how (or if) to pay it down.
I thank God that the USA has the largest Navy and Nuclear military in the world otherwise I fear it would be declared bankrupt... but as long as they keep enough carrier groups operating it will be difficult for other significant countries to see the US descend into chaos. What do you think ?
   

I believe that with this answer Fletch, more or less, expresses the thoughts and estimates of most of the world, or at least what we call the "western" world. If I wanted to elaborate a bit (even though I hinted it in my previous post) I would go on and say that all this power, does not actually come from the country itself, but from the economical powers that use the military and the economy  of the USA as a special weight to play their dirty games. I fear that if and when these powers  stop having so many interests invested or stop gaining as much as they desire or understand that they lose their influence, they will have no problem, no second thoughts but leave the ship to sink.

"There is no America, there is no democracy"
http://youtu.be/jxiT30N6ti4

I think that when you are born and grown in this line of thinking, there is no way back, because you have not learnt any other way. And this is exactly the American way of life, that have been preached through art, movies and commercials to the whole planet. Unfortunately the American dream has become just that, a dream. A dream that like all dreams can claim your life while you sleep. And the world sleeps. When the end of the cold war came with the fall of the Berlin wall and the Soviet Union, people thought that we could all live the American dream. If you work hard you will find your place in the sun. I guess in this sense we are all Americans and we live the American dream.  Or not?
Some questions about all the western countries.
Is the statistics we hear about unemployment correct? Is the distribution of wealth fair? Is the way things work fair? How can you call getting a fortune out of stocks and bonds fair? How can you pile money in the banks and influence political decisions to get more? Is it fair to have patents for life saving medicine and selling medicine only to the ones that can afford them? Is this human or animal action? Is this logic or dementia? How can you call decocratic a sytem that you hardly know the person you vote for?
Countries were original constituted in order to protect people with common beliefs, ideologies, and most of the times common religion and language. The key in this was the interest and attention for the "OTHER" person. Unfortunately when money got in the equation of life and was transformed from a means, (a tool for an easier life,) to an end, a puproseless end, the attention for the "other" person vanished and we became egocentric. Now they present us with a plan for Global economy, global government and global lobotomy. But if you don't love and feel for the "OTHER" it doesn't really matter if there are country boundaries or not. It doesn't matter if we are called citizens of the world or Greek, American, German, Canadian and so on. There are going to be wars for other reasons, and we are going to call them civil wars. I really find peculiar discussing about the economic crisis as the only and absolute problem when the whole problem rather begins from a crisis of existence, the purpose of human life and the inevitability of death. It is a metaphysical question, that affects our lives and appears as an economical and  social problem, because people drunk and intoxicated by commersialism have forgotten to answer. The answer is unconditional love. To care about your fellow human, without any other interest. People claim that this is utopian, but it is only utopian because nobody can force you to practice it. It doesn't work this way. It should be the result of an education system that cares about the human values. About the human life as the biggest value of all. 
   
 It is of little importance that people in Greece or Spain get out on the street to protest. Laws diminishing our lives are passed anyway in the parliaments. Argentina went through a similar phase. It hasn't recovered yet, while people keep suffering and life expectancy has dropped. It doesn't matter if they want to change and save themselves. What is important is if the "investors" will let them be saved. And Argentina is a vast country, bigger than both Greece and Spain, with more natural resources and less people than Greece and Spain put together. It can actually produce more than its people can consume.
But back to the USA. Very few people outside the USA can even begin to understand what is going on. And I tend to believe that very few people inside the USA understand as well. First of all because money is so important that if you have any or if you don't have any and how much you've got (and lately how you have invested them, but it is actually the same as having or not having) interferes with your personal view of the world. Obama and Romney. I guess you can find many differences in their programs, but were there enough AS PROMISES to help you chose for any of them? Politics is actually ideas put to use or better put to test. A good idea might turn out bad. Obama was introduced to Europe and Greece as reformer. Trying to change the way things are, about health care, taxation, and foreign policy. I don't know if he had succeeded in any of them, sometimes good ideas take time to flourish and have powerful enemies (the corporations etc)  As for foreign policy, in Greece things are so bad that we don't believe they can get worse, and yet somehow they do, month after month, day after day.   But some say that with Romney things would be even worse.

Sorry for the long post. It might seem out of topic, but I didn't intent it to be.

Very wise words, vgonis. Thank you.  :clap
Title: Re: #22:2012.11.05 Madison, WI, Alliant Energy Center, USA (Political subject changed)
Post by: vgonis on November 11, 2012, 03:03:32 PM
Thank you Justme. I am really looking forward to read the views of our friends from the other side of the pond.
And Pottel you hit the nail on the head. But I wonder if politicians can be believed just on the promises they make before election.