A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Jarle on January 07, 2013, 05:50:09 PM
-
Hi!
Just a nice article posted today on americansongwriter.com's Lyric of The Week about Sultans of Swing...
http://www.americansongwriter.com/2013/01/dire-straits-sultans-of-swing/
J :)
-
Many thanks Jarle for posting! :thumbsup
-
Thank you Jarle for posting this article! :thumbsup
Fieneke
-
What a lovely little article..... one of those ones that you read and think "yeah, Mark Knopfler really is a genius and living legend".
thanks for the post :)
-
Thanks for the article. I made me feel really really good !! :)
-
Well, he's "living" anyway. Being "a genius" is something way beyond having a great talent and, as for his being a "legend", that stretches the meaning of the word to breaking point. I acknowledge Mark's great skill and talent and enjoy seeing them displayed in concert but to take those attributes to the level you have suggested, xxFordiexx, is beyond my comprehension. I know this is an MK forum, but let's have a reality check, please.
-
The word "legend" is one I do not take lightly and very few people in the world of music fall into that category. However (and I guess you knew that word was coming twm ;)) MK most definitely does fall into that category as does BD.
One must consider not just the songs and their contribution to popular culture (the solos on MFN and SOS, especially are legendary) but also the number of artists of calibre they have collaborated with. Then there is their longevity and even, perhaps one should take a look at DS at their peak being the biggest band in the country (maybe the world) having the biggest selling album, biggest sell-out tour, appearing at Live-Aid, being at the forefront of the Compact Disc format etc. All that is a very big impact on popular culture at the time and they were the band to see and even to play with, many special guests on stage at the London shows.
His tours with EC and EH and collaborations with Chet, EH and JT are just a few of many top artists he worked with. Oh, there was someone else he worked with who must have thought he was pretty good too. Bob something-or-other... :think
-
The word "legend" is one I do not take lightly and very few people in the world of music fall into that category. However (and I guess you knew that word was coming twm ;)) MK most definitely does fall into that category as does BD.
One must consider not just the songs and their contribution to popular culture (the solos on MFN and SOS, especially are legendary) but also the number of artists of calibre they have collaborated with. Then there is their longevity and even, perhaps one should take a look at DS at their peak being the biggest band in the country (maybe the world) having the biggest selling album, biggest sell-out tour, appearing at Live-Aid, being at the forefront of the Compact Disc format etc. All that is a very big impact on popular culture at the time and they were the band to see and even to play with, many special guests on stage at the London shows.
His tours with EC and EH and collaborations with Chet, EH and JT are just a few of many top artists he worked with. Oh, there was someone else he worked with who must have thought he was pretty good too. Bob something-or-other... :think
Totally agree! :clap
Also if Dylan is considered a genius and a legend, MK certainly must be too! ;)
-
I never mentioned Dylan, so please don't drive me into comparing and contrasting MK and BD on the "genius" and "legendary" scales. We would all find that embarrasing. Please stick to MK. MK is very talented indeed and you should be able to make some kind of case that this talent amounts to genius. Legendary, on the other hand - you don't have a hope.
-
I never mentioned Dylan, so please don't drive me into comparing and contrasting MK and BD on the "genius" and "legendary" scales. We would all find that embarrasing. Please stick to MK. MK is very talented indeed and you should be able to make some kind of case that this talent amounts to genius. Legendary, on the other hand - you don't have a hope.
Does Mrs. twm know you are writing this! ;) Of course, I respect your opinion but can't agree with it.
I don't want any comparisons between our respective "hero's," all I was trying to say was (knowing you are a fan) that I had total respect for Dylan and that I genuinely think he can be referred to as a legend. Nothing more.
-
I think, perhaps, I was the guilty party here! I don't want to start comparisons between MK and Dylan either, but whilst I feel that Mark is just as much a genius as Bob, he isn't a legend in the same way, because as I see it, a legend doesn't need any introduction or explanation as to who he/she is.
Dylan is one of those people, but most people I talk to about Mark Knopfler haven't a clue who I am talking about! Mentioning Dire Straits, though, is a different matter and then they know who I mean. Dire Straits are legends, because they are so well-known but as Mark WAS Dire Straits, means he shares that legendary status too! That's how I see it anyway! ;D
-
WRITTEN BEFORE THE LATEST CONTRIBUTION FROM superval
Forgive me but why do you ask about mrs twm ? I have no idea what her view is on this matter. We don't discuss such things as whether particular performers are legendary or not. I have no idea what her view is.
My point is simply that calling MK "a genius" and "legendary" is premature and overstating things.
I made no comparison between MK and BD and have never used either word about BD, to the best of my memory. I suppose that, were I so minded, I could build a stronger case to apply one or both of these words in respect of BD than I could for MK but I think the terms are inappropriate for either performer. They are the sorts of words used by lazy journalists or sub-editors on a tight deadline.
In the fullness of time perhaps, these matters will be settled or, at least, some settled view will form and become the consensus. In all likelihood, this will be long after I have departed this world. Meantime, we should be cautious about applying such words.The past shows us that some people whose light shone brightly at one time are now little remembered, let alone regarded as legendary. Others, overlooked at the time, are now much in favour and, perhaps one might say, revered. History can be a cruel master.
-
we will only be able to call mk legendary way after today (be it after his death or simply in many years..) but i am convinced one day we but foremost "non-mk fans" like ourselves, will be talking about MK in terms like "legendary"
and i am already convinced, since a while, that the man IS a genius of some sorts, just his musical skills alone ...
-
sorry but I agree with twm....
see what I've posted about guitarists, I think it's the same point of view
-
A nice little article that was. And who cares about legendary and talented or genious. It is all about the music not the man.
Alexander the Great is legendary to the world and I hope to become legendary to my children. ;)
-
sorry but I agree with twm....
see what I've posted about guitarists, I think it's the same point of view
If I may suggest: we're not only talking about a guitarist here though; it's the whole package and his contribution to the world of music that makes him a legend IMHO. :)
-
It may be possible to call MK a legend when he's playing the great gig in the sky, because a legend has enduring fame when they've gone. I also think its difficult to quantify and only a matter of opinion. To us fans, MK is a legend and nobody can change our minds on that. Even the genius of TWM.
-
Even the genius of TWM! Touch
-
Even the genius of TWM! Touch
-
And taken as such.
-
If I may suggest: we're not only talking about a guitarist here though; it's the whole package and his contribution to the world of music that makes him a legend IMHO
Yes of course I know, but I just wanted to say that it's the same kind of discussion : how to "rate" the importance of a guitarist / artist in rock music history :)
To us fans, MK is a legend and nobody can change our minds on that
Yes and I think that it's exactly the point. It's a FAN'S POINT OF VIEW, not an "objective" one
Of course I know that "perfect objective mind" is impossible, but we can try to tend to...
what I like about twm' s posts is that it shows us the other side of the world....
I think that sometimes people here on AMIT forum have a view too much focused on MK.
yes he's a great writer/composer/musician etc... yes we LOVE his music, but I don't think that it makes him a "genius" nor a "legend"
at each new album release we are saying that it's a gem, a masterpiece, etc...
but when I make it listen to my friends/family/co-workers, they say all the same : boring, always same music, same melody, "p
-
One of the things I pride myself in is being as objective as I can possibly be - no matter what topic it is. Whether it's a referee's decision at the football or JF & twm's decision to award a penalty against MK fans! ;) JF, you're supposed to be on our side - boo!
This objectivity will no doubt be well known on AMIT because I haven't exactly been holding back on my thoughts (much to the horror of some of you no doubt)! ;D
-
Unless MK has a renaisance like Johnny Cash did before he died I dont think he will be leaving a lasting legacy. Can you really see a film being made about him. Hes not cool, totally unfashionable, avoids limelight and has not been shot dead, or died in a cocaine fuelled orgy. These are the things that make legends.
-
In the case of some of those mentioned by JF, they had a very short time in the music business eg Hendrix and Kurt Cobain and I wonder if they would still be hailed as a legend or a genius if they hadn't died so young. We will never know! What I do know is that I prefer MK's music a million times more than either of them! ;)
I do think MK is a genius - he's the complete musician - fine lyricist, songwriter, guitarist, producer.... and actually I do find him pretty cool too and I much prefer to have him alive and still composing and playing great music for us than be a dead "legend"!
-
Unless MK has a renaisance like Johnny Cash did before he died I dont think he will be leaving a lasting legacy. Can you really see a film being made about him. Hes not cool, totally unfashionable, avoids limelight and has not been shot dead, or died in a cocaine fuelled orgy. These are the things that make legends.
yes totally agree
-
In the case of some of those mentioned by JF, they had a very short time in the music business eg Hendrix and Kurt Cobain and I wonder if they would still be hailed as a legend or a genius if they hadn't died so young. We will never know! What I do know is that I prefer MK's music a million times more than either of them! ;)
I do think MK is a genius - he's the complete musician - fine lyricist, songwriter, guitarist, producer.... and actually I do find him pretty cool too and I much prefer to have him alive and still composing and playing great music for us than be a dead "legend"!
yes I wonder too how would be perceived Hendrix if he was still alive
And how would be perceived the beatles if they were still touring as the stones...maybe less "legendary" ?
but the fact that the stones record some crap music since 1975, I think it don't affect their "legendary" era between 68 and 72
-
Unless MK has a renaisance like Johnny Cash did before he died I dont think he will be leaving a lasting legacy. Can you really see a film being made about him. Hes not cool, totally unfashionable, avoids limelight and has not been shot dead, or died in a cocaine fuelled orgy. These are the things that make legends.
Very good point Banjo. It seems that in his attempts to ensure a more peaceful life for himself and his family and his responsible behaviour too, he has been the master of his own downfall in terms of being labelled "legendary." He is, however legendary in the world of music whether he is well known to the younger generation or not IMHO.
-
Just thinking about the label "legend" or "legendary". It is so over-used and inappropriate in most cases. Shouldn't the person be dead to be a legend? :think In that case MK/DS may be legends eventually! ;)
-
Just thinking about the label "legend" or "legendary". It is so over-used and inappropriate in most cases. Shouldn't the person be dead to be a legend? :think In that case MK/DS may be legends eventually! ;)
A lot of people use the phrase "living legend" or "legend in their own lifetime," but I don't prescribe to this way of thinking myself. Sure, one can leave a legacy but it can also be amassed during ones own lifetime I think. :think
-
I've a feeling MK wouldn't be too impressed about being called a legend or even a genius. I think he would be more than a bit embarrassed about it. He has already said many times that he doesn't know why people would want to be famous! I'm sure he likes things as they are -writing songs and performing them on his own terms.
-
Unless MK has a renaisance like Johnny Cash did before he died I dont think he will be leaving a lasting legacy. Can you really see a film being made about him. Hes not cool, totally unfashionable, avoids limelight and has not been shot dead, or died in a cocaine fuelled orgy. These are the things that make legends.
Sorry Banjo99uk...but I must disagree...these are the things that make a celebrity...not a legend. A legend is someone who's reputation precedes them...as an artist. A legend is someone who...upon the mention of their name in conversation...eyebrows are raised in appreciation. A legend is someone who still...after more than 40 years creating art...has their artistic output referred to by critics with the utmost of superlatives. A legend is someone who would categorically deny all of the aforementioned..despite being deserved the praise. Sounds like Mark to me.
-
Unless MK has a renaisance like Johnny Cash did before he died I dont think he will be leaving a lasting legacy. Can you really see a film being made about him. Hes not cool, totally unfashionable, avoids limelight and has not been shot dead, or died in a cocaine fuelled orgy. These are the things that make legends.
Sorry Banjo99uk...but I must disagree...these are the things that make a celebrity...not a legend. A legend is someone who's reputation precedes them...as an artist. A legend is someone who...upon the mention of their name in conversation...eyebrows are raised in appreciation. A legend is someone who still...after more than 40 years creating art...has their artistic output referred to by critics with the utmost of superlatives. A legend is someone who would categorically deny all of the aforementioned..despite being deserved the praise. Sounds like Mark to me.
I completely agree with you and was being very cynical. I still dont think you can call MK a legend to non MK nuts/fans. The well known music know it all Paul Gambacini once said, the only modern writers who will leave a legacy like Beethoven and his contemparies are Lennon and Mccartney. He also described MK as a virtuoso during his radio commentary of the montserrat concert. I dont agree with him about the writers, I dont think anybody will be listening to our eras pop writers in 100 years.
-
Just a thought! "A Life in Songs" was in the BBC4 Legends series! ;)
-
Just thinking about the label "legend" or "legendary". It is so over-used and inappropriate in most cases. Shouldn't the person be dead to be a legend? :think In that case MK/DS may be legends eventually! ;)
I don't think it's necessary to be dead to be called a "legend"
for example, I'd say that BB King is a legend, (in the world of music/blues, of course), but a living legend.
I'd say that Dylan is a legend too.
I'd say Mandela is a legend, well not sure... :think
Of course, it depends what you mean by the word "legend", and it seems that nobody has the same meaning in head
-
It seems that in his attempts to ensure a more peaceful life for himself and his family and his responsible behaviour too, he has been the master of his own downfall in terms of being labelled "legendary."
100% agree, and this is a side of his character that we all love, don't we ?
the paradox is that most of us prefer the period of his career when he was more "rock star", when he was less "shy" or "peacefull"
-
I still dont think you can call MK a legend to non MK nuts/fans.
100% agree
The well known music know it all Paul Gambacini once said, the only modern writers who will leave a legacy like Beethoven and his contemparies are Lennon and Mccartney.
agree, but I would add Dylan and maybe Hendrix
I dont agree with him about the writers, I dont think anybody will be listening to our eras pop writers in 100 years.
well, how can we know ?
Who would have told in 1600-1700-1800 that music from this era will be still famous now ?
I realize that the terms "famous" "well known" etc... differs a lot from countries sides of the world
In France, DS doesn"t have the same aura, as it has in NL, Italy or Germany.
The "hits" or "cult tunes" aren't necessarily the same ones. For example, I'd say that walk of life is more famous than MFN in France.
But I guess that when you ask in UK the DS best known song, evrybody answers MFN, right ?
I once read that "yesterday" was the 2nd best ever known song in the world, just after Girl from Ipanema.
I remember it did sound strange to me. Of course I know this song, but I wouldn't say it's the most famous song in the world.
But of course, it's my french point of view...maybe if you ask some african, asian, south american people, maybe it's the case ? I don't know
I remember a Stariani itw, where the journalist said something like "the ever best known riff in music is smoke on the water", and Satriani answered "no ! it's Beethoven 5th symphony overture ! That's the best HIT in music !"
-
Beethoven's 5th Symphony Overture ?
-
Developing accurate but practical defintions is rarely that easy.
Here's a set of definitions for "legend" from one dictionary, as quoted in one of the on-line sources - Definition 4 is the relevant one here:
legend [?l?d??nd]
n
1. a popular story handed down from earlier times whose truth has not been ascertained
2. a group of such stories the Arthurian legend
3. a modern story that has taken on the characteristics of a traditional legendary tale
4. a person whose fame or notoriety makes him a source of exaggerated or romanticized tales or exploits
5. an inscription or title, as on a coin or beneath a coat of arms
6. explanatory matter accompanying a table, map, chart, etc.
7. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms)
a. a story of the life of a saint
b. a collection of such stories
[C14 (in the sense: a saint's life or a collection of saints' lives): from Medieval Latin legenda passages to be read, from Latin legere to read]
The same source also provides a slightly different definition from another dictionary [note Definition 2]:
leg
-
I personally don't think that it matters how well know the person is at all. What matters is their contribution to their field and how much they are respected by their peers. If fame mattered then Mark could have been a controversial character, taken drugs etc in his younger days - that would have guaranteed him legend status. ::)
-
Beethoven's 5th Symphony Overture ?
Many many many pop/rock songs have taken there riffs/melodies from classical music. I have a book naming loads of them.
-
Beethoven's 5th Symphony Overture ?
Many many many pop/rock songs have taken there riffs/melodies from classical music. I have a book naming loads of them.
Yes, I know that, but what exactly is Beethoven's 5th Symphony OVERTURE? ::)
-
Beethoven's 5th Symphony Overture ?
Many many many pop/rock songs have taken there riffs/melodies from classical music. I have a book naming loads of them.
Yes, I know that, but what exactly is Beethoven's 5th Symphony OVERTURE? ::)
Pass, over to you Superval.
-
A symphony doesn't have an overture. It is music played before an opera, or a symphonic poem. :)
-
Thanks Superval, I never knew that. Clever stuff.
-
Thanks Superval, I never knew that. Clever stuff.
That's OK! I think Satriani or JF might have meant 1st movement rather than overture!
-
A symphony doesn't have an overture. It is music played before an opera, or a symphonic poem. :)
Thank you superval, so I learned something new today. I googled an wikipdia said, that symphony is originally a greek word ...hi vgonis ;-)
-
A symphony doesn't have an overture. It is music played before an opera, or a symphonic poem. :)
Thank you superval, so I learned something new today. I googled an wikipdia said, that symphony is originally a greek word ...hi vgonis ;-)
I love the knowledge on this forum.
-
A symphony doesn't have an overture. It is music played before an opera, or a symphonic poem. :)
Thank you superval, so I learned something new today. I googled an wikipdia said, that symphony is originally a greek word ...hi vgonis ;-)
I love the knowledge on this forum.
;)knowledge...well...it was wikipedia ;)
-
A symphony doesn't have an overture. It is music played before an opera, or a symphonic poem. :)
Thank you superval, so I learned something new today. I googled an wikipdia said, that symphony is originally a greek word ...hi vgonis ;-)
I love the knowledge on this forum.
;)knowledge...well...it was wikipedia ;)
Shhhhhh ;)
-
Thanks Superval, I never knew that. Clever stuff.
That's OK! I think Satriani or JF might have meant 1st movement rather than overture!
Yes of course I / he meant the 1st mvt
You are right, an overture is only for an opera and Townshend made a pun in Tommy with overture / underture
-
My opinion stands and that's all that matters.... MK is a genius, nuff said :P
-
This topic will become legendary.
-
I just read these quotes on a thread about Mark's lyrical expertise from Silvertown Blues Forum:
"Genius makes its observations in short-hand; talent writes them out at length."
Christian Nevell Bovee
"Genius is the ability to reduce the complicated to the simple."
C. W. Ceran
"Neither a lofty degree of intelligence nor imagination nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius."
Wolfgang A. Mozart
-
I tend to agree with Wolfgang. He was so far out! He even predicted E.Q. !!! ;D
And Jesus said it before him! And Paul the Apostole as well.
1 Corinthians 13:2
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
And if you are nothing, you certainly can't be a genious or a legend...
-
I've a feeling MK wouldn't be too impressed about being called a legend or even a genius. I think he would be more than a bit embarrassed about it. He has already said many times that he doesn't know why people would want to be famous! I'm sure he likes things as they are -writing songs and performing them on his own terms.
I agree, I think so too, that Mark would not be very impressed about being called a legend. I am sure he enjoys doing what he is good at, writing songs and performing them.
But yes, maybe he would be somewhat embarrassed when being called a legend or a genius......... In so many interviews he says he sees himself more as a songwriter who uses his guitar to write the songs, he doens't see himself as a guitar hero.
Maaike
-
Being famous is nothing to do with being called a genius or legend... Being famous can do one as far as I'm concerned.... Also my calling Knopfler as a living legend or genius is my opinion and I stand by it. I doubt MK would give a hoot about what I think.
In any case this is a super fan here (me) bigging up my hero and if anyone wants to criticise that, so be it.
-
Being famous is nothing to do with being called a genius or legend... Being famous can do one as far as I'm concerned.... Also my calling Knopfler as a living legend or genius is my opinion and I stand by it. I doubt MK would give a hoot about what I think.
In any case this is a super fan here (me) bigging up my hero and if anyone wants to criticise that, so be it.
xxFordiexx - Please read my reply #23 - second paragraph! ;)
-
In the case of some of those mentioned by JF, they had a very short time in the music business eg Hendrix and Kurt Cobain and I wonder if they would still be hailed as a legend or a genius if they hadn't died so young. We will never know! What I do know is that I prefer MK's music a million times more than either of them! ;)
I do think MK is a genius - he's the complete musician - fine lyricist, songwriter, guitarist, producer.... and actually I do find him pretty cool too and I much prefer to have him alive and still composing and playing great music for us than be a dead "legend"!
Perfectly said. To continually evolve and write some utter masterpieces takes some doing at MK's level for 35 years. Top Stuff Val :)
-
Mark is a total package, nothing more, nothing less. That's how I see it. Not only he's a super talented musician, but also a human with such kind and humble nature . Him and his music just touches the deepest part of your soul. Therefore, he's a living legend for me.