A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: LoveExpresso on February 24, 2014, 08:48:30 PM
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http://www.rollingstone.com/music/lists/100-best-albums-of-the-eighties-20110418/dire-straits-making-movies-20110324
Sorry if this is old. Found it on facebook. I found it quite interesting.
And the original "Rolling Stone" review of MM must be one of the best written album reviews ever:
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/making-movies-19810205
LE
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Both great articles! Thanks LE!
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ww, never knew how much Romeo was based on Jungleland by Springsteen, check as of 30 something seconds, eerie...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PTJHhUeAfc
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lol, and already in 1980...
Guitar freaks who genuflected over every riff on Dire Straits and Communiqu
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brilliant find LE...AWESOME record review...
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also, who the hell is this Sid? never knew this..
Bittan's role became especially important because Knopfler's brother David, the band's rhythm guitarist, left Dire Straits during the first week of recording. Guitarist Sid McGiniss was brought in to assist Mark, bassist John Illsley and drummer Pick Withers, but Bittan's contribution was unique in that it was the first time the band had ever fully worked a keyboardist into its lineup.
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wow, i just had post "6666"..........
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Sid is no new find. He appears even on a wikipedia article, as uncredited player. But yes both articles are great.
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Sid McGuinnis is mentioned in the official DS book by Michael oldfield as guitar player in MM but its not credited in the record.
He is an important guitar player who played with many artists, like Peter Gabriel.
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I remember we discussed about Sid Mc Ginnis with Ingo some years ago (or was it some decades ago....)
And we concluded that the most likely was :
Sid Mcginnis played some backing tracks, or maybe rehearsed with the band to try some ideas, BUT Mark played all guitars, or at least re-recorded his parts along Sid's backing tracks, and all guitars you can hear on MM are played by Mark
then,according to oldfield's book : after the record, Sid was asked to play on tour, but he was too expensive , so the band searched for other musicians, and then came Hal and Alan (their auditions are explained in detail in the book).
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I find it very awesome that the album review really praises MK's quality as a guitarist, composer and songwriter. 1980, only third album, the review writer really nails it. Great lines. And Iovine also exactly knows where the quality came from. Although I also think that Muff Winwood should not underestimated here, his work was perfect for album number one. As history shows.
LE
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It is all great but I still feel uncomfortable when Communique gets such a passing comment of it being rushed or not very good. I adore Communique and never understand why it is often given such negativity. It is probably my fav if I had to ever have such a thing lol
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Funnily enough, I am listening to Communiqu
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Thanks, LE, for these links! I really enjoyed reading the many good things written about MK, as a songwriter, guitarist - and singer too. I have never understood why Communique was regarded as not very good, because it is probably my favourite DS album. I believe it has become more popular with the passing of time, though.
About MM, I found this remark interesting - "Unlike other LPs, this one boasts songs, not solos" - Things haven't really changed so much then! :think
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Funnily enough, I am listening to Communiqu
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Communique sold over 7million copies too..... not too shabby 8)
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I love Communique as well. It's a very good album. I used to love Portobello Belle. Don't know, why i fell often attracted to the easy patterns and melodies. Communique is certainly one of my top favourite studio albums.
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Making Movies is filled with classic guitar solos, so the comparison with today's situation is clearly flawed. Great MM review nonetheless.
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Communique has been my fav album for years
and angel of mercy is my fav song on the album ;)
I prefer Lady writer than sultans (aiee...blasphemy ? ::))
But I aslo love MM, and I agree that it can't be compared with actual situation.
Even if there aren't many "solos" ather are many lead guitars, many guitar arrangements
I prefer songs that doesn't have a proper dedicated solo but lot a lead guitar, or riff, or etc... (WWE, Water of love, One world, communique, silvertown blues, coyote, etc...) than songs with only a guitar solo but without much guitar arrangement (e.g. redbud tree)
it's not because a song have a guitar solo that it makes it "guitar oriented" and vice et versa
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I think that if you listen carefully you will find that there are no extended guitar solos on record until Love over gold. The songs are structured in such a way that either the solos offer a breath/break from the verses (mid SOS solo) or are in fact instrumental bridges to another part of the song that is different from the previous. There are also two other categories, the solos to fade out (Tunnel of Love) and the solos that are constructed as an extra verse, thus enhancing the impact of a previous lyric (News). Of course if you have a nice guitar lick turn to solo you can't expect MK to throw it out just because it is a solo! And maybe in the live sets, the solos are in fact there for a couple of reasons as well. Give a different version, give the spotlight to some musicians while others take a break, etc.
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I understand what you say vgonis, but I'd say that the Tunnel outro on MM is already an "extended" solo regarding what were "standard" lengths in music at the time
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The early solos were often written or carefully planned, and integral parts of the songs. Later, Mark started to turn towards more of jammy soloing, even though his solos always sound more precise than for normal blues/rock players.
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The early solos were often written or carefully planned, and integral parts of the songs. Later, Mark started to turn towards more of jammy soloing, even though his solos always sound more precise than for normal blues/rock players.
I disagree.
Hal Lindes explained that Mark played alwasy same solos during the entire tout, each night almost exactly the same, and we can hear that on many bootlegs
What we call "jamming" about Mark is when he's changing few bars in a 2min solo, and all the rest is the same, but that's not I call "jamming"
It doesn't mean his solos are bad, but I wouldn't say that Mark turned to "jammy soloing".
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TOL out-ro solo is like painting with music the lyrics that were preceded. It is a nice balance to the extended intro (30 sec, with no guitar) and the last part of the out-ro also is a pianistic roll (also 30sec) . If you count the guitar solo is hardly over 1:30 solo. And for an 8 min song it is quite normal. But you are correct, TOL is not the song to judge from.
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The early solos were often written or carefully planned, and integral parts of the songs. Later, Mark started to turn towards more of jammy soloing, even though his solos always sound more precise than for normal blues/rock players.
I disagree.
Hal Lindes explained that Mark played alwasy same solos during the entire tout, each night almost exactly the same, and we can hear that on many bootlegs
What we call "jamming" about Mark is when he's changing few bars in a 2min solo, and all the rest is the same, but that's not I call "jamming"
It doesn't mean his solos are bad, but I wouldn't say that Mark turned to "jammy soloing".
Well, as I tried to emphasize, I meant "jam" in relative terms. He never sounded like Clapton, but there's a difference between In the gallery and stuff like the outro of When it comes to you.
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TOL out-ro solo is like painting with music the lyrics that were preceded. It is a nice balance to the extended intro (30 sec, with no guitar) and the last part of the out-ro also is a pianistic roll (also 30sec) . If you count the guitar solo is hardly over 1:30 solo. And for an 8 min song it is quite normal. But you are correct, TOL is not the song to judge from.
yes agree, but it depends if you count relative to the song lenght, or relative to a "standard" solo length
I remember the firsts months I was listening to Alchemy : Expresso love was a short song....of course relative to others, but a 5 min song is a "long" song relative to pop music in general
a 1:30 solo is a long one, even if relative to a 8min song you can call it quite normal :)
another example : on Setphen still's go back home, EC is playing a 2min solo, and I read in a review that it was a "long" solo. it means relative to what the public think what is a long instrumental part ...
Of course for us DS fans, with TR, TOL and many other songs live, we would say it's a short one, but all is relative.... :)
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How can time change the way we look at an album.
Communiqu
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How can time change the way we look at an album.
Easily. There are lots of albums or songs that I haven't immediately warmed to, but have grown to like more than those I loved at first listening. Communique is one of those albums for me. :)
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The early solos were often written or carefully planned, and integral parts of the songs. Later, Mark started to turn towards more of jammy soloing, even though his solos always sound more precise than for normal blues/rock players.
I disagree.
Hal Lindes explained that Mark played alwasy same solos during the entire tout, each night almost exactly the same, and we can hear that on many bootlegs
What we call "jamming" about Mark is when he's changing few bars in a 2min solo, and all the rest is the same, but that's not I call "jamming"
It doesn't mean his solos are bad, but I wouldn't say that Mark turned to "jammy soloing".
Very few bootlegs are really that available from that era, particularly when you think of the amount of Gigs DS did. Roll on to the On Every Street tour and you can see that MK in particular was on another level with regards to his guitar playing. The bootlegs prove this and he changed so much and improvised on this tour and pretty much ever since imo.
Knopfler played the same solos? Not in a million years... yes he may have had structure for certain parts of songs but he has always had so much breathing space for improvisation on many parts of the solos. In any case Knopfler really is a master of intertwining guitar licks and vocals. unmatched imo
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SOS or HFB are example of how Mak can change from one night to another (for the better or worse) but on SAN or TR I did not notice such impro, just that they are better played on some night than others.
TR has so many passages oblig
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Sid McGuinnis is mentioned in the official DS book by Michael oldfield as guitar player in MM but its not credited in the record.
He is an important guitar player who played with many artists, like Peter Gabriel.
All this talk about Sid McGinnis, jeez... like we never heard of him.
He was credited in the Rematered 1996 Making Movies, it is in the booklet. Also Jack Sonni said somewhere that he remembers bumping into Sid in (I think it was) NYC and he showed him how to play Expresso Love riff.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOE2LP7lPg0
Here you can see them playing together. (well, if you see something .. ;) )
LE
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Thanks LE and bobo and jbaent. Had all the mentioned sources but hadn't noticed or didn't remember. Especially the video, I had it from different source without the comment below, but SL did a great job once again!
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I knew this video of Expresso love, but I didn't know that it was Sid McGinnis playing guitar here.
indeed it's the only time I know where the solo was played in the same way as on the album with harmonized guitars, so it could be maybe a clue to proove that Sid played on the original version ?....
However, I can't see why Roy Bittan would be credited, and not Sid.
On all DS albums, all musicians have always been credited, at least in "thanks for helping to make the record" or such a quote.
Jack Sonni, Phil palmer, Tony levin, jeff Porcaro etc... all are named somewhere in the booklet, but not Sid and after reading 3 times the booklet from the remastered version, I can't see his name....?
of course there are many examples of musicians being not credited for contract issues (e.g. EC, Frampton and Collins on Harrison's all things must pass), but here, if Sid DID played on the album, I think he would have been credited like other musicians on other DS albums.
All this talk about Sid McGinnis, jeez... like we never heard of him.
He was credited in the Rematered 1996 Making Movies, it is in the booklet. Also Jack Sonni said somewhere that he remembers bumping into Sid in (I think it was) NYC and he showed him how to play Expresso Love riff.
I find strange that Jack Sonni showed Sid how to play the riff in1980......
of course Jack and Mark were already friends at the time, but it would mean that Mark would have played the song to Jack, and Jack would have showed to Sid.... strange, don't you think ?
I think it's more likely that Jack was telling about the Letterman show. Maybe Jack showed Sid how to play the riff around 85, when Mark had to play this song on TV, with the studio-TV band, including Sid.
if it is the case, it would proove that Sid did'nt know how to play the song in 85.....beacuse maybe he did'nt play on the original version....
I still think that Mark plays all guitars on MM, but of course we will never be 100% sure
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I also have the 1996 remastered version of the MM CD and there is no mention of Sid on mine either.
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Sid showed to Jack! Not the other way around! ;)
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I also have the 1996 remastered version of the MM CD and there is no mention of Sid on mine either.
I think its in the liner notes.
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I also have the 1996 remastered version of the MM CD and there is no mention of Sid on mine either.
I think its in the liner notes.
No, I've read all of the liner notes - no mention of Sid.
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I'v read them 3 times to be sure....and did'nt find any mention of Sid
wait a minute...we are not talking about Syd Barrett, aren't we ? ;D
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nO sID vICIOUS!
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Is that guitar the same as the one used some years later in the calling Elvis video clip?
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Is that guitar the same as the one used some years later in the calling Elvis video clip?
Yes, and of course The Bug on stage 91/92. He was using it for Sultans at that point in the BIA tour.
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Funnily enough, I am listening to Communiqu
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Is that guitar the same as the one used some years later in the calling Elvis video clip?
Yes, and of course The Bug on stage 91/92. He was using it for Sultans at that point in the BIA tour.
And also going home in Sydney 86, and let it all go in promo tour 2007
http://ds.mk-guitar.com/schecter-2.htm (http://ds.mk-guitar.com/schecter-2.htm)
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Funnily enough, I am listening to Communiqu
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I'v read them 3 times to be sure....and did'nt find any mention of Sid
No way :) I mean, I was so sure it was there! I am going to check it now to see, but I am telling you, I remeber reading it there! ;D
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Ha, new it was there! 8)
But wrong album!!
12-14 years ago I used to listen to Making Movies or Love over Gold almost every day, reading the booklets over and over again. That was the only source of info I had then, so was sure I read it in a booklet.
It was the Love over Gold booklet. First page, first paragraph, last sentence.
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Ha, new it was there! 8)
But wrong album!!
12-14 years ago I used to listen to Making Movies or Love over Gold almost every day, reading the booklets over and over again. That was the only source of info I had then, so was sure I read it in a booklet.
It was the Love over Gold booklet. First page, first paragraph, last sentence.
ah yes indeed right :)
well I don't know who John Tobler is, and how we can rely on his info ?
maybe he just "googled" and wrote this....
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ww, never knew how much Romeo was based on Jungleland by Springsteen, check as of 30 something seconds, eerie...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PTJHhUeAfc
Mike Scott of The Waterboys wades in:
https://x.com/MickPuck/status/1838856522815742092
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and, is he right?firsttime i hear this
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ww, never knew how much Romeo was based on Jungleland by Springsteen, check as of 30 something seconds, eerie...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PTJHhUeAfc
Mike Scott of The Waterboys wades in:
https://x.com/MickPuck/status/1838856522815742092
and, is he right?firsttime i hear this
That's the bullhittiest of bullshit if I ever saw one. Two completely different songs, two completely different artists and here's Mr Scott accusing Mark of stealing as if he single-handedly solved Kennedy's assassination. I hate shit like this. There are examples of far more similar "rip-offs" in music; most of the time, it's an accident. If it's not, it would be in court yesterday.
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So Mark ripped off not only Shakespeare but Springsteen, stole his entire sound and style verbatim from J. J. Cale and then ripped off Snowy White with "Bird Of Paradise". Why do we even have a fan forum dedicated to this musical thief?
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I could never understand that there are opinions that BIA is similar to Bird Of Paradise.
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It's there, pretty obvious.. In the keys..
LE
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I could never understand that there are opinions that BIA is similar to Bird Of Paradise.
It's there, pretty obvious.. In the keys..
LE
I always got the impression BIA was written somewhere in 1982, so before Bird Of Paradise was released... Either way, this Scott guy is too aggressive in accusing Mark of theft, as if Mark killed his pet fish or something. He's obviously a die-hard Bruce Springsteen fan, and all the music on Earth seems to come from Mr Springsteen according to him.
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I didn't care about that guy and wouldn't call it a ripp-off but the synth melody is more or less the same. It's just one Motif, the song itself is totally different.
LE
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I didn't care about that guy and wouldn't call it a ripp-off but the synth melody is more or less the same. It's just one Motif, the song itself is totally different.
LE
I think so too, but I like The Waterboys :)
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I've heard many people claim that Springsteen ripped off Andy Summers' riff from Message in a Bottle for Radio Nowhere, so I guess he's even.
I don't put much stock in this stuff myself.
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It's there, pretty obvious.. In the keys..
LE
Yep, the middle 8 in particular.
Chris W played on The Whole of the Moon, maybe Mike has heard about the hell that was the OES tour and holds a grudge against MK. :)
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I've heard many people claim that Springsteen ripped off Andy Summers' riff from Message in a Bottle for Radio Nowhere, so I guess he's even.
I don't put much stock in this stuff myself.
No it is not the police, it is certainly a copy paste case from this minor hit.
https://youtu.be/JpU--sHqgUs?si=6abZtePzm3--wM-3
But it is only the riff, like R&J.
And anyway, too much talk about R&J which is not my favourite DS song, to begin with. Probably overplayed it in 1989...