A Mark In Time

Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: WaterofLove on November 13, 2015, 06:02:20 PM

Title: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: WaterofLove on November 13, 2015, 06:02:20 PM
Which is the red guitar he uses on the legendary performance? :)
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: AMARKINTIME on November 13, 2015, 06:34:35 PM
Schecter Stratocaster red

This guitar was used from 1980 to around 1987,
Dire Straits concert Live Aid
and ocassionally in the 90s
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: WaterofLove on November 13, 2015, 06:43:13 PM
Thanks for answering! Is it Dream Machine 2?
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: dmg on November 13, 2015, 06:52:05 PM
Thanks for answering! Is it Dream Machine 2?

This one:

http://www.mk-guitar.com/mark-knopfler-gear-database/schecter-dream-machine-red-1980/
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: WaterofLove on November 13, 2015, 07:13:48 PM
Thanks! It can be hard to tell them apart :) Is Schecter generally a better guitar brand than Fender?
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: kaleo74 on November 14, 2015, 05:51:02 AM
Used on "Going home - On the night" 1992.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh2GFoDae8Y
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: Ingo on November 14, 2015, 08:36:12 AM
Thanks! It can be hard to tell them apart :) Is Schecter generally a better guitar brand than Fender?

The company that made Mark's guitars in the early 80ies is out of business since about 1984. The name was sold and changed owners a few times, the Schecter company of today has nothing to do with the original but used to focus on heavey metal guitars and such instead. As they have the name of that original company, it seems they more recently had the idea to offer a guitar looking similar to Mark's and calling it Sultan. But it is not similar, not even close to what Mark played.

The original Schecter company was in fact based on the idea to offer upgrade parts for Fenders, a bit later they finally assembled their parts to complete guitars, inofficially called the Dream Machines (due to an 80ies advert with this slogan)
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: JF on November 15, 2015, 12:59:22 AM
the guitar was used on :

- 80-81 : the guitar is seen in video clips of skateaway and tunnel of love, and also on Tunnel of love first TV promo clips (because the sunburst had just been stolen)
LIVE : Expresso love, Waterline, Lions, Sultans, News, Skateaway, single handed sailor, in the gallery, wild west end

- 82-83 : the guitar is seen on the Private Investigations video clip for the electric part, and on TV promo clips for Industrial Disease.
LIVE : Once upon a time, expresso love, sultans, twisting by the pool, Portobelle belle, Going home.
No video exists of It never rains. was it this guitar ? I would rather vote for the sunburst schecter strat on this one

- 83 : the guitar is seen on 2 Dylan's video clips from Infidels

- 85-86 : studio version of why worry
LIVE : Expresso love, Sultans (first leg of the tour, and Live Aid), going home ((first leg of the tour) So far away, why Worry

- 88 : the guitar is seen on the money that matters video clip

- 91-92 : the guitar is seen on the video clip of The bug, but live he used the white schecter strat, so not sure on the studio version
LIVE : to be more accurate it's wild theme on the OES tour, not Going home. the guitar was also used on the song OES (on the studio version it seems it was the '61, Jeroen from OEB read this in the song book "MK style vol2" if memory serves)

- 96 : the guitar is seen on the videoclip of Golden heart. does it mean it was the guitar used on the recording ? Not necessarily, example : the Calling Elvis clip shows the white schecter while we can't be almost sure that it is the Pensa-shur on this song
LIVE :Going home was played with this guitar on the Jools Holand BBC gig released for the ANIL video. Later on tour he played this song on the LP

- 2000 : I remember Strat61 said that he read that this guitar was used on the WII studio version, but I doubt it, I would rather vote for the '61 on this one

- 2008 : LIVE Richard played this guitar on the fish and the bird

I don't think we have seen it again since then...

maybe I forgot some other songs...
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: JF on November 17, 2015, 07:44:43 PM
I have always thought Sultans with the Schecter beats the one with the Pensa or the Fender 100000 to 1

my dream guitar

yes because the Alchemy version is for many fans the ultimate version....but I think that it depends more on Mark's musical period, rather than the guitar model.
If he still had played with fenders during the eighties, I bet that his music, his playing, his inispration, his orchestral arrangements would been almost the sames..but of course we will never know
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: Knopflerfan on December 10, 2015, 08:05:02 PM
Personally I didn't like the sound of the Schecter... A 'proper' Stratocaster anytime for me....
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: dustyvalentino on December 10, 2015, 10:46:39 PM
Personally I didn't like the sound of the Schecter... A 'proper' Stratocaster anytime for me....
Ha. Crazy talk!
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: dmg on December 11, 2015, 06:25:02 PM
Personally I didn't like the sound of the Schecter... A 'proper' Stratocaster anytime for me....

Not a fan of the Schecter then?  ;)
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: Knopflerfan on December 18, 2015, 09:19:41 PM
Nope not a Schecter fan I'm afraid...
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: dmg on December 20, 2015, 01:24:16 PM
Thanks! It can be hard to tell them apart :) Is Schecter generally a better guitar brand than Fender?

it can better or worse, it only depends on your musical taste

...or whose fingers are caressing it!  ;)
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: stratocasteph on December 23, 2015, 09:35:18 AM
Guitar playing is amazing on Alchemy, but the guitar tone is not my favorite one.
I don't think that the Schecter vs Fender guitar is the key of the problem, I'd rather look on the amps he played on this tour.
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: JF on December 23, 2015, 09:52:21 AM
I don't think that the Schecter vs Fender guitar is the key of the problem, I'd rather look on the amps he played on this tour.

totally agree. You can hear the difference of tones between LOG and BIA tours for example, and he plays almost the same guitars, but with different effect-setup-amps.
I always thought that 75% of a guitarist's tone comes mostly from amps-effects (and production in studio) and that the guitar difference is sometimes more subtle.

Of course, you can hear difference between a LP and  a strat, but the overall tone comes from what is after the guitar in the sound chain imho
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: Silvertown on December 23, 2015, 01:36:41 PM
Guitar playing is amazing on Alchemy, but the guitar tone is not my favorite one.
I don't think that the Schecter vs Fender guitar is the key of the problem, I'd rather look on the amps he played on this tour.

That´s true. However, F500T microphones have very distinctive sound compared to standard mics from Fender.
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: dmg on December 24, 2015, 12:45:35 PM
Guitar playing is amazing on Alchemy, but the guitar tone is not my favorite one.
I don't think that the Schecter vs Fender guitar is the key of the problem, I'd rather look on the amps he played on this tour.

I agree on all points.
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: dustyvalentino on December 24, 2015, 08:06:43 PM
Guitar playing is amazing on Alchemy, but the guitar tone is not my favorite one.
I don't think that the Schecter vs Fender guitar is the key of the problem, I'd rather look on the amps he played on this tour.

While the amp is indeed important, the guitar is always the most important part of the gear
So what do tou think would sound better - MK playing a cheap Squier Strat and Epiphone Les Paul through his normal live rig, or playing his normal burst and Fender Sigs through a cheap solid state Marshall amp?
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: jakehadlee on December 24, 2015, 08:51:52 PM
Guitar playing is amazing on Alchemy, but the guitar tone is not my favorite one.
I don't think that the Schecter vs Fender guitar is the key of the problem, I'd rather look on the amps he played on this tour.

While the amp is indeed important, the guitar is always the most important part of the gear

I'm going to have to disagree - a well set up guitar with decent pickups is all you need, the amp and effects are by far the biggest influence on sound (leaving aside the player of course)

Personally, I don't think MK ever sounded better than on Alchemy
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: ds1984 on December 24, 2015, 10:25:30 PM
Everything is important from Mark's fingers to our ears.
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: herlock on December 24, 2015, 11:09:58 PM
Guitar playing is amazing on Alchemy, but the guitar tone is not my favorite one.
I don't think that the Schecter vs Fender guitar is the key of the problem, I'd rather look on the amps he played on this tour.
Yes, love Alchemy but I slightly prefer the sweeter overdrive and synth from the BIA tour. TOL for instance is sweeter, Alchemy tone sounds a bit rough. Still Sultans is better rough than sweet IMHO.

Nothing is perfect, BIA tour also came with overused keyboards and overdriven-to-death drums which were ugly. Alchemy is more sober and probably aged better.
TR is amazing but a bit short and rough - I prefer the 96,01,and 05 versions with the pensa.
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: JF on December 25, 2015, 11:03:37 PM
I'm going to have to disagree - a well set up guitar with decent pickups is all you need, the amp and effects are by far the biggest influence on sound (leaving aside the player of course)

100% agree  :thumbsup (an that's excatly what I said in my previous post  :))

Personally, I don't think MK ever sounded better than on Alchemy

yes quite agree, but I think that he sounded also at his best during 77-79 era
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: JF on December 27, 2015, 09:15:17 PM
Guitar playing is amazing on Alchemy, but the guitar tone is not my favorite one.
I don't think that the Schecter vs Fender guitar is the key of the problem, I'd rather look on the amps he played on this tour.

That´s true. However, F500T microphones have very distinctive sound compared to standard mics from Fender.

Yes but since 1981 the red schecter didn't have the F500T pickups anymore, it had the seymour duncan SSL-1 instead
(it had the original pickups in late 80, for example in Dortmund)

http://www.mk-guitar.com/mark-knopfler-gear-database/schecter-dream-machine-red-1980/ (http://www.mk-guitar.com/mark-knopfler-gear-database/schecter-dream-machine-red-1980/)


therefore, the sound on Once upon a time, expresso, sultans, twisting, portobello, going home is NOT the schecter distinctive sound, but rather close to Fender stock PUs

the sound on TOL and TR comes from F500T pickups though
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: JF on December 27, 2015, 09:36:19 PM
1) fingers
2) guitar
3) amp
4) delay
5) other effects



I think we are talking about slightly different aspects here.

of course, like Guy always answers, "it's all in the fingers", if we are talking about style, inspiration, "sound" in "artistic" term so to say.
of course the guitarist gives the original vibration to the neck and strings with his vibrato, his mind, his heart, etc...

BUT, in my opinion, the discussion was more about the difference in "electronic" sound, the "technical tone" I may say, regarding the gear, and in this case I think that amps and effects is by far more important than the guitar.

[/quote]
So what do tou think would sound better - MK playing a cheap Squier Strat and Epiphone Les Paul through his normal live rig, or playing his normal burst and Fender Sigs through a cheap solid state Marshall amp?

I think that obviously the 1st configuration would sound by far the best. the sound "body" comes first from the amp, and if itis cheap, the best PU and wood from the guitar won't sound the best you want.
On the contrary, weak pickups can be enhanced by effects and amps, I think


To illustrate that the amp is more promeminent in the overall tone than the guitar, here are some examples in Mark different eras :


1) going home/ freeway flyer. why worry / money that matters.
the same guitar but obvisously not the same sound

2) sultans live 91-92 or 96 / MFN or heavy fuel live 91-92
exactly same example : the same guitar, but totally different sound, from amps and effects

3) true love will never fade / seattle / the fizzy and the still
3 different guitars with different pUs (teisco / strat /gretsch) but almost the same sound, probably due to the tone king / reverb....

4) MFN live 85 / live 86
Les paul / steinberger
the sound is not THAT different, because of the same setup


I guess that we, guitar freaks can hear the subbtle differnece between different guitars, but mots of public hear first the difference in the overall tone produced by amps/effects
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: herlock on December 27, 2015, 10:45:56 PM
Guitar playing is amazing on Alchemy, but the guitar tone is not my favorite one.
I don't think that the Schecter vs Fender guitar is the key of the problem, I'd rather look on the amps he played on this tour.
Yes, love Alchemy but I slightly prefer the sweeter overdrive and synth from the BIA tour. TOL for instance is sweeter, Alchemy tone sounds a bit rough. Still Sultans is better rough than sweet IMHO.

Nothing is perfect, BIA tour also came with overused keyboards and overdriven-to-death drums which were ugly. Alchemy is more sober and probably aged better.
TR is amazing but a bit short and rough - I prefer the 96,01,and 05 versions with the pensa.

Re TR from Alchemy, I think the sound of the remixed version is spectacular.
When you say remix, do you mean the blu Ray or the MFN compilation ?
Title: Re: Schecter or Fender on Sultans - Alchemy Live?
Post by: JF on December 28, 2015, 03:44:33 PM
MFN compilation, completely different sound

yes I agree that the mix on the MFN comp is great : you can hear Joop de korte's percussion at the beginning, Hal's guitar has been removed during the quiet solo, because he was a bit detuned, etc... but I miss the beginning and especially the ending that is so great on Alchemy imho