A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Brunno Nunes on July 02, 2022, 04:09:21 AM
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I don't understand why until today Alchemy has not been released in full, at least in audio. :think
When the Compact Disc Digital Audio standard emerged in 1980, it would have a duration of 74 minutes, and so it has lasted until today, a CD has a maximum capacity of 74 minutes, an LP has a maximum capacity of 30 minutes per side. The Alchemy concert in its entirety, with all 4 songs left out has a time of 1:56:20, it is clear that in this way, in all cases Alchemy could be released in its entirety, there is no excuse for that, not even in the 80's. I did a lot of research on this over time, a double lp has a capacity of 2:00:00 hours of recording, however, they released Alchemy on LP with 1:28:50, an experience hearing that does not last an hour and a half. :smack A double cd has a maximum capacity of 2:28:00 (74 min +74 min) and the official release of Alchemy is 1:33:59, (because they added the song Love Over Gold and a few more seconds on some tracks). So going back there, the full Alchemy show experience is 1:56:20, (with Industrial, LOG, Twisting by The Pool and Portobello Bello), would fit on LP, CD, VHS, DVD, Blu-ray. .
It was never released because initially Mark Knopfler for some reason didn't like it, or didn't think enough the tracks that were left out, that at the time (1984)? The second hypothesis is more evident, pure disregard for their own history, memory and the band's fans, that's all. They gave us a maximum of 1:33:59 of something that had 1:56:20, they keep in a schizophrenic way little more than 23 minutes of experience of 4 wonderful songs that could close the cycle of a real concert experience from the LOG tour have been doing this for 38 years. :disbelief
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Hello Brunno. Yes, a good idea to do a little philosophy on Alchemy. :think
Some techincal update: Today a CD-Album can carry more than 74min with todays technical possibilities. There are CD-Albums, not by Dire Straits, that carry up to 78-79min capacity. I have bought that Alchemy 2-CD-Set in 1988 on the orange-swirl Vertigo-CD-Label. The first edition of 1984 carries a blue artwork on the discs. The 2-LP-Set left out the song Love over gold.
Maybe, it can be possible to re-release a full Alchemy on 2-LP-set or as an expanded edition on 3-LP-Set, but that is a personal idea from my side only.
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Hello Brunno. Yes, a good idea to do a little philosophy on Alchemy. :think
Some techincal update: Today a CD-Album can carry more than 74min with todays technical possibilities. There are CD-Albums, not by Dire Straits, that carry up to 78-79min capacity. I have bought that Alchemy 2-CD-Set in 1988 on the orange-swirl Vertigo-CD-Label. The first edition of 1984 carries a blue artwork on the discs. The 2-LP-Set left out the song Love over gold.
Maybe, it can be possible to re-release a full Alchemy on 2-LP-set or as an expanded edition on 3-LP-Set, but that is a personal idea from my side only.
A CD has a maximum capacity of 74 minutes, an LP has a maximum capacity of 30 minutes per side. The Alchemy concert in its entirety, with all 4 songs left out has a time of 1:56:20. Let's do the math, it was always possible to release Alchemy in its entirety, with all the tracks, since the 80's, they didn't do it until today because they didn't want to, it never needed to be a triple lp, a double lp has plenty of space, imagine in a double cd... :think :smack
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The double lp has a capacity of 2:00:00 hours of recording, however, they released Alchemy on LP with 1:28:50, that is, there is space for about 32:00 of music, the 4 songs that remained from the outside and there would still only be spaces left. The double cd has a maximum capacity of 2:28:00, this fact reveals that the problem was never lack of space in these media, I had hoped for the release on dvd and blu-ray, but it was a silly expectation, it is much more comfortable milking sheep, releasing the LP BIA on the 15th, without recording leftovers, if there are people who pay for it, I imagine there would be many more people paying for an Alchemy release in full.
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A lp has a capacity of 24 minutes on proper quality, and the cd actually has a capacity of 79 minutes.
You can put 30 minutes on a lp side, yes, but of very low quality, nobody would dare to do that. Actually, they did once with OES, but they had to put it on very low volume to avoid the loose of quality as much as they could.
The thing about Alchemy is they put on cd what was released on LP and cassette back on the day, that's why the cd had LOG that was present on the cassette but not on the LP.
When cd was the standard, the idea was to translate into CDs what was released on the day on LP. Release extended or more complete edition is something that has to come from the record company, or pushed by the artist through the record company, but, you know, the artist is MK.
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A lp has a capacity of 24 minutes on proper quality, and the cd actually has a capacity of 79 minutes.
You can put 30 minutes on a lp side, yes, but of very low quality, nobody would dare to do that. Actually, they did once with OES, but they had to put it on very low volume to avoid the loose of quality as much as they could.
The thing about Alchemy is they put on cd what was released on LP and cassette back on the day, that's why the cd had LOG that was present on the cassette but not on the LP.
When cd was the standard, the idea was to translate into CDs what was released on the day on LP. Release extended or more complete edition is something that has to come from the record company, or pushed by the artist through the record company, but, you know, the artist is MK.
Ok, however, I think if the entire concert has a time of 1:56:20,. could this not contain in the capacity of a double cd? And what about the video? A VHS would cover the entire concert, since it's less than two hours, a dvd or Blu-ray would even fit extras... Anyway, the last word is MK's and we already know how it works so far...
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A lp has a capacity of 24 minutes on proper quality, and the cd actually has a capacity of 79 minutes.
You can put 30 minutes on a lp side, yes, but of very low quality, nobody would dare to do that. Actually, they did once with OES, but they had to put it on very low volume to avoid the loose of quality as much as they could.
The thing about Alchemy is they put on cd what was released on LP and cassette back on the day, that's why the cd had LOG that was present on the cassette but not on the LP.
When cd was the standard, the idea was to translate into CDs what was released on the day on LP. Release extended or more complete edition is something that has to come from the record company, or pushed by the artist through the record company, but, you know, the artist is MK.
Ok, however, I think if the entire concert has a time of 1:56:20,. could this not contain in the capacity of a double cd? And what about the video? A VHS would cover the entire concert, since it's less than two hours, a dvd or Blu-ray would even fit extras... Anyway, the last word is MK's and we already know how it works so far...
Exactly
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Hi jbaent. Yes, you are right with the technical facts about the duration on an acutal vinyl-disc or an actual CD-Album. That´s comparable to my thoughts at the beginning of that thread.
Yes, we also don´t know, what kind of DS or MK album will be released in the near future in however what format or edition. It will be a big surprise if some neccessary or non-neccessary editions will see the light in the future. Let´s just wait or it, or not. :think
To compare the vintage Alchemy-2-LP-editions, according to my knowledge and audio-tests, the Japanese edition, the UK-Edition, the US-Warner-Bros-editions are well produced and very good sounding, also the German edition.
I don´t know if a new edition of Alchemy will be interesting, except it will be a very well produced 180-gramm vinyl edition, on 2- or 3-LP-Set with "specials", like additional missing live-tracks, additional live-pics or some new liner notes for the cover, or as a fine MFSL 45-rpm-cut-version or as a half-speed-mastering-version. But again, it is a personal idea by my side. :think
By the way: Alchemy 2-LP-Set is acutally highly demanded on the used-record-markets, like on record-fairs, or mostly from fleamarkets, second-hand-stores with vinyl-offers and so son. On my last flea-market visits i could see some more people, wich are looking for Dire Straits records, incl. Alchemy. On the electronic marketplaces some UK-traders calls ridicuously high prices for that records, but i think, they don´t will sell them. But it is interesting to see such behaviour on the record-collectors community, but i don´t have a clear answer for that.
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Actually, although rare on pop albums, I had plenty of classical lps that played for around 30 minutes per side - Mozart piano concertos, for instance. They didn’t greatly suffer from this length - but there was always a reluctance from those cutting pop vinyl to follow suit.
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CD 650 Mb = 75 min
CD 700 Mb = 80 min
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one of most famous examples of vinyl quality being "reduced" for a song length is the "hey Jude" single
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Okay, so a couple of the less popular songs were omitted, but it doesn't begin to compare with how they trashed the On the Night release! That's another story though. Alchemy remains a fantastic souvenir from the LOG tour and is by far the best show of the tour released almost complete and unedited.
Portobello wouldn't be included due to the band intro - nobody is interested listening to that sitting at home. They cut that out of Tunnel of Love at Wembley Arena '85 when broadcasting The Tube.
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nobody is interested listening to that sitting at home
I love to hear Mark introducing the band and that each instrument stops after being named !
in 2008 he did the contrary : inroducing each musician who added his part each time after being named
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nobody is interested listening to that sitting at home
I love to hear Mark introducing the band and that each instrument stops after being named !
in 2008 he did the contrary : inroducing each musician who added his part each time after being named
I think the only time I enjoyed it was in 1985 during TOL but that was made interesting by all the noodling around. Nothing else has come close to that for me.
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in 2008 he did the contrary : inroducing each musician who added his part each time after being named
Don't remember that hapening in 2008 but I certainly remember that happened at the start of Postcards in 2015....
https://youtu.be/QqaaEyi12Fs
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in 2008 he did the contrary : inroducing each musician who added his part each time after being named
Don't remember that hapening in 2008 but I certainly remember that happened at the start of Postcards in 2015....
https://youtu.be/QqaaEyi12Fs
ah yes you are right. y mistake. it was indeed in 2015
I love the build of the rif by adding each instrument, one after the other
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nobody is interested listening to that sitting at home
I love to hear Mark introducing the band and that each instrument stops after being named !
in 2008 he did the contrary : inroducing each musician who added his part each time after being named
I think the only time I enjoyed it was in 1985 during TOL but that was made interesting by all the noodling around. Nothing else has come close to that for me.
yes of course it was great in 1985
but what I love during LOG tour is that PB is linked to TOL
in Alchemy we hear what sounds like a TOL intro just right after TYL
but what is really great to hear on LOG bootlegs is the PB outro, then Mark Introducing the band, and then the link to TOL intro.
To me it's one of the highlights of the show so it should have been on the Alchemy release imho
it's far far more interesting musically wise than all same jokes during DWB in solo years imho
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nobody is interested listening to that sitting at home
I love to hear Mark introducing the band and that each instrument stops after being named !
in 2008 he did the contrary : inroducing each musician who added his part each time after being named
I think the only time I enjoyed it was in 1985 during TOL but that was made interesting by all the noodling around. Nothing else has come close to that for me.
yes of course it was great in 1985
but what I love during LOG tour is that PB is linked to TOL
in Alchemy we hear what sounds like a TOL intro just right after TYL
but what is really great to hear on LOG bootlegs is the PB outro, then Mark Introducing the band, and then the link to TOL intro.
To me it's one of the highlights of the show so it should have been on the Alchemy release imho
it's far far more interesting musically wise than all same jokes during DWB in solo years imho
"They're all maestros..."
"This guy thinks he's the best in the world, and this guy...maybe not!"
"Mr. Horsepower, Danny Cummings!"
"He can do anything, and he'll also fix your bicycle."
;D ;D
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nobody is interested listening to that sitting at home
I love to hear Mark introducing the band and that each instrument stops after being named !
in 2008 he did the contrary : inroducing each musician who added his part each time after being named
I think the only time I enjoyed it was in 1985 during TOL but that was made interesting by all the noodling around. Nothing else has come close to that for me.
yes of course it was great in 1985
but what I love during LOG tour is that PB is linked to TOL
in Alchemy we hear what sounds like a TOL intro just right after TYL
but what is really great to hear on LOG bootlegs is the PB outro, then Mark Introducing the band, and then the link to TOL intro.
To me it's one of the highlights of the show so it should have been on the Alchemy release imho
it's far far more interesting musically wise than all same jokes during DWB in solo years imho
I agree with JF, and I care about the whole experience, even the performance of the musicians, is part of the show. In short, I'm all for a full experience, bootlegs give us that, unfortunately an official release like Alchemy doesn't give us a full experience. If it weren't for the bootlegs, many people including myself would never know what a real LOG tour concert would be like, as well as any DS tour, as all the live releases are missing songs that were played, that is, who had the opportunity to go to the show at the time contemplated the show in its entirety, whoever didn't go, gets what they considered the best moments. This attitude is regrettable, especially when there are ways to launch a complete experience, both from Alchemy and from the OES tour, who knows about the BIA tour.
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It will be pretty cool, to discover some very goodsounding BIA gigs again.
There are some cool concerts around, but not often with very good sound-quality. I think of the first BIA show in ex-yugoslavia, Split sports-hall from April 1985. There is a complete and fine show with interesting tracks on it, but it sounds like a recording with a cheap ghettoblaster/cassette recorder. Also Christchurch , NZ, from March 1986, where TR is played. Also a fine show, but again with almost poor to average sound quality. So, we need more of such great live-gigs, wich are filled with great tracks and enthusiasm of all musicians in much better sound-quality. So is it possible with todays studio- and hi-fi-technology, to remaster such live-recordings or to give them a better sound-quality ?? :think
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But since 2010, we can enjoy full MK concerts :)
PS. And some of Shangri La tour.
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But since 2010, we can enjoy full MK concerts :)
PS. And some of Shangri La tour.
Yes, when the shows are of lesser interest and poorer quality. :smack
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But since 2010, we can enjoy full MK concerts :)
PS. And some of Shangri La tour.
Yes, when the shows are of lesser interest and poorer quality. :smack
The 2010 shows are my favourites. Great set lists and guitar-playing from MK. 2013 was pretty good too. :)
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in 2008 he did the contrary : inroducing each musician who added his part each time after being named
Don't remember that hapening in 2008 but I certainly remember that happened at the start of Postcards in 2015....
https://youtu.be/QqaaEyi12Fs
He started doing it in Marbletown part way through the tour