A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: qjamesfloyd on August 18, 2023, 09:51:47 AM
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As this is the only song written by Mark and David Knopfler officially released (there might be others) I have always wondered how the writing worked, do we know anything about that? when was it written? I presume in the Deptford days, who wrote the music? who wrote the words? or was it a Lennon & McCartney type thing?
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As this is the only song written by Mark and David Knopfler officially released (there might be others) I have always wondered how the writing worked, do we know anything about that? when was it written? I presume in the Deptford days, who wrote the music? who wrote the words? or was it a Lennon & McCartney type thing?
It's not The Beatles where you know when each song was written, and the exact percentage of each songwriter's input ;D
You can try to ask David on Facebook. I can imagine two brothers dabbling in writing music, some co-written songs would be bound to emerge at some point. According to David, I think I heard he helped to shape songs from the first DS albums. Writing credits are often a topic on this forum and the fact that "What's The Matter Baby" got both Mark and David credited means they both had a major input in this song.
I think with What's The Matter Baby it was David who wrote the song, and Mark who wrote the guitar part, the guitar break (aka intro) and probably altered the words, hence the writing credit. Can hardly imagine David coming up with intricate guitar harmonies like this.
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David said once that when it was just MK and him playing together and some of the early DS songs started to grow, he always had the impression they were cowriting... But as long as the lyrics and main idea was MK, David's parts seemed to be nothing.
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As this is the only song written by Mark and David Knopfler officially released (there might be others) I have always wondered how the writing worked, do we know anything about that? when was it written? I presume in the Deptford days, who wrote the music? who wrote the words? or was it a Lennon & McCartney type thing?
It's not The Beatles where you know when each song was written, and the exact percentage of each songwriter's input ;D
You can try to ask David on Facebook. I can imagine two brothers dabbling in writing music, some co-written songs would be bound to emerge at some point. According to David, I think I heard he helped to shape songs from the first DS albums. Writing credits are often a topic on this forum and the fact that "What's The Matter Baby" got both Mark and David credited means they both had a major input in this song.
I think with What's The Matter Baby it was David who wrote the song, and Mark who wrote the guitar part, the guitar break (aka intro) and probably altered the words, hence the writing credit. Can hardly imagine David coming up with intricate guitar harmonies like this.
David wrote some songs that were performed at the very early gigs of DS, like "Sacred loving", "Southside tenements" and others (one is mentioned in the "walk of life" book but can't remember the title) but as long as MK started having more and more songs, his songs were being out, and as once David said, MK's were better!
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"Southside tenements" ? ? ?
Are there any recordings?
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"Southside tenements" ? ? ?
Are there any recordings?
Sure, except not by DS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqRql8vbIPg
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Exactly. But jbaent writes that DS.
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"Southside tenements" ? ? ?
Are there any recordings?
Sure, except not by DS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqRql8vbIPg
A wonderful song about the Deptford area where they were living at the time it was written.
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"Southside tenements" ? ? ?
Are there any recordings?
Sure, except not by DS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqRql8vbIPg
Presumably this arrangement is very different to DS. Can’t really image a 4 piece playing something like this in London pubs in 1977.
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David once said "Yes, isn't it funny that there aren't any credits for me on DS and Communiqué?"
I never understood whether this meant that (1) some songs on these albums were in fact cowritten by both brothers but Mark claimed all the credit for them, or (2) David's songs never made it to the albums, because Mark refused them.
I think (2) is more probable, but I have no evidence.
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"Southside tenements" ? ? ?
Are there any recordings?
Sure, except not by DS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqRql8vbIPg
Presumably this arrangement is very different to DS. Can’t really image a 4 piece playing something like this in London pubs in 1977.
Why worry.....lol ;D
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I also thought that the chorus was reminiscent of Why Worry. A slowed down version...
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I also thought that the chorus was reminiscent of Why Worry. A slowed down version...
Why Worry meets In The Sky. Nice!
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David once said "Yes, isn't it funny that there aren't any credits for me on DS and Communiqué?"
I never understood whether this meant that (1) some songs on these albums were in fact cowritten by bother brothers but Mark claimed all the credit for them, or (2) David's songs never made it to the albums, because Mark refused them.
I think (2) is more probable, but I have no evidence.
https://youtu.be/csDfO_dLHhg
Probably option 2, see 2:35
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in the Oldfield book, David explains that when they jammed together with Mark on acoustic guitars, before DS in Mark's flat at Buckhust Hill (CIRCA 75-76 I guess) they played more or less what became songs on two first albums. For example, he remembers the melodic line in Lions, and when Mark composed the song in studio in february-march 78, David gave him the idea to use this melody.
david explains that these jams were not exactly "songs" but more "a sound, a kind of style, of feeling"
so indeed, David "participated" in the DS groove so to say, but not exactly in writing songs imho
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in the Oldfield book, David explains that when they jammed together with Mark on acoustic guitars, before DS in Mark's flat at Buckhust Hill (CIRCA 75-76 I guess) they played more or less what became songs on two first albums. For example, he remembers the melodic line in Lions, and when Mark composed the song in studio in february-march 78, David gave him the idea to use this melody.
david explains that these jams were not exactly "songs" but more "a sound, a kind of style, of feeling"
so indeed, David "participated" in the DS groove so to say, but not exactly in writing songs imho
Indeed!
Co Writing is different than suggest some words, phrases or melodic suggestions.
If suggesting words or melodies is co-writing, DK, AC and GF would be credited as co-authors of a part of MK songs.
I believe that DK found his inspiration as a composer during the Ship Of Dreams composition process.
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in the Oldfield book, David explains that when they jammed together with Mark on acoustic guitars, before DS in Mark's flat at Buckhust Hill (CIRCA 75-76 I guess) they played more or less what became songs on two first albums. For example, he remembers the melodic line in Lions, and when Mark composed the song in studio in february-march 78, David gave him the idea to use this melody.
david explains that these jams were not exactly "songs" but more "a sound, a kind of style, of feeling"
so indeed, David "participated" in the DS groove so to say, but not exactly in writing songs imho
Indeed!
Co Writing is different than suggest some words, phrases or melodic suggestions.
If suggesting words or melodies is co-writing, DK, AC and GF would be credited as co-authors of a part of MK songs.
I believe that DK found his inspiration as a composer during the Ship Of Dreams composition process.
Way before...
All his previous records, starting from "release" in 1983 have very good songs, but for me it was with "the giver", I think in 1994, that he started to write his best stuff, with "small mercies" following and increasing the level.
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Way before...
All his previous records, starting from "release" in 1983 have very good songs, but for me it was with "the giver", I think in 1994, that he started to write his best stuff, with "small mercies" following and increasing the level.
Yes.
The Giver its a good album.
Release have a couple of good songs.
But, in my opinion, both are very bad in terms of production.
Lifelines, if i remember well, was released under a major label. In my opinion, Lifelines is a bad album.
For me, Ship Of Dreams was a game changer for DK.
Wishbones is good too
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I'm not a big fan of David's work, but worth remembering he wouldn't have the production budget of MK or the studio access the countless compressors and outboard equipment. What he's turned out with those limitations stands up pretty well.
It's a controversial comment but I find it quite curious that MKs style of easy listening songs over his solo career are very similar to Davids in terms of style from a cursory listen. Maybe that's why I don't listen to them much...
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Speaking of writing credits, sorry for being off-topic, but I don't know where else to ask. Are there any The Police fans? Why Andy Summers wasn't granted a writing credit for "Every Breath You Take"? Sting literally said "Make it your own" when failed to come up with the proper arrangement for this song, and Andy came up with a riff that is more iconic and famous than any other song by Sting. And it makes him a few thousand dollars each day. This song would be nothing without this guitar part. And which is more surprising, later in his career, Sting shared writing credits with Dominic Miller for writing the guitar part for "Shape Of My Heart", which was originally an exercise for fingers. Go figure!
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Speaking of writing credits, sorry for being off-topic, but I don't know where else to ask. Are there any The Police fans? Why Andy Summers wasn't granted a writing credit for "Every Breath You Take"? Sting literally said "Make it your own" when failed to come up with the proper arrangement for this song, and Andy came up with a riff that is more iconic and famous than any other song by Sting. And it makes him a few thousand dollars each day. This song would be nothing without this guitar part. And which is more surprising, later in his career, Sting shared writing credits with Dominic Miller for writing the guitar part for "Shape Of My Heart", which was originally an exercise for fingers. Go figure!
Maybe the Police 'writing credits' has some contractual arrangements. But, i'm sure that Andy receives a lot of money for his arrangement credits on EBYT.
In Brazil, the credits are splitted by:
41.7% - authors
41.7% - producers
16.6% - musicians
There are a famous Heavy Metal band in Brazil called Angra.
The author-credits deal was:
If you bring a melodic idea that can turn to a song, you are the author.
I don't know about The Police deals, but i suppose that Stewart and Summer can be added as arrangers/producers.
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If you bring a melodic idea that can turn to a song, you are the author.
nice idea but sometimes, it's a little bit more complex : several msuicians can bring a melody, and moreover sometimes it's a riff, sometimes its' an iconic sound, or only the intro, etc... a song can be created from many sources, and often by several persons at the same time
and in the end, if the song became famous, you have to find what piece of the song made it iconic
that's what makes the writing credits thing difficult
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If you bring a melodic idea that can turn to a song, you are the author.
nice idea but sometimes, it's a little bit more complex : several msuicians can bring a melody, and moreover sometimes it's a riff, sometimes its' an iconic sound, or only the intro, etc... a song can be created from many sources, and often by several persons at the same time
and in the end, if the song became famous, you have to find what piece of the song made it iconic
that's what makes the writing credits thing difficult
It just depends on the band, or the leader.
Toto credit any of their members if they add anything to the song, a drum groove, a bass line, a keyboard solo etc that makes the song sound better and makes it famous.
Others claim that as long as the lyrics and chords are theirs, nobody deserves credits whatever they add.
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Bobby Valentino successfully sued for writing credit on The Bluebells' Young At Heart because he added the fiddle part. It had already been recorded and released by Banarama without the fiddle part.
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And don't forget the Clare Torry case for A Great Gig in The Sky.
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David always sounds like Peter Pan to me, very immature, a grownup with a teen mentality. If I was in his position, being a no more than average musician and having a genius big brother, I’d certainly embrace it rather than helplessly fighting for room in the band.
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David always sounds like Peter Pan to me, very immature, a grownup with a teen mentality. If I was in his position, being a no more than average musician and having a genius big brother, I’d certainly embrace it rather than helplessly fighting for room in the band.
He had the great courage to leave a highly succesful band to do his own stuff rather than fulfilling his others' dreams.
A path the Mark will ultimately follow... 12 years after his brother! Just provoking: which brother is most immature? ;)
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David always sounds like Peter Pan to me, very immature, a grownup with a teen mentality. If I was in his position, being a no more than average musician and having a genius big brother, I’d certainly embrace it rather than helplessly fighting for room in the band.
He had the great courage to leave a highly succesful band to do his own stuff rather than fulfilling his others' dreams.
A path the Mark will ultimately follow... 12 years after his brother! Just provoking: which brother is most immature? ;)
Fully agree. David was mature enough to leave an increasingly famous and successful band. He could had stayed and getting his money for nothing but took the bravest decision. Leaving and pursuing his own career.
He's not in the richest list of people in the country but did good enough to earn a living.
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It all depends on wether you want fame and money or doing what you like for less fame and less money but with more freedom and self-respect.
What's a pity is the family relationship being irremediably damaged, I think had David stayed it wouldn't have been long before he were forced to leave for a better player anyway
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It all depends on wether you want fame and money or doing what you like for less fame and less money but with more freedom and self-respect.
What's a pity is the family relationship being irremediably damaged, I think had David stayed it wouldn't have been long before he were forced to leave for a better player anyway
They kept John as the bass player to the end. They didn't search for a better player.
David was good enough and could had been better but he wasn't keen on what was happening so he didn't mind growing better. But in his solo career he did great things on piano and also on guitar clearly better that he did with DS. Clearly a case of motivation. If he had been motivated in the band he would had grown better and non other guitar player would had been needed. The next guitar players no matter how good they were had a complicated role to fill in either.
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It all depends on wether you want fame and money or doing what you like for less fame and less money but with more freedom and self-respect.
What's a pity is the family relationship being irremediably damaged, I think had David stayed it wouldn't have been long before he were forced to leave for a better player anyway
They kept John as the bass player to the end. They didn't search for a better player.
David was good enough and could had been better but he wasn't keen on what was happening so he didn't mind growing better. But in his solo career he did great things on piano and also on guitar clearly better that he did with DS. Clearly a case of motivation. If he had been motivated in the band he would had grown better and non other guitar player would had been needed. The next guitar players no matter how good they were had a complicated role to fill in either.
Yes. Just listen to Down to the Waterline a) On the last 1979 concert, featured on the BBC Arena documentary on the Alchemy Blu-Ray, and b) from the Dortmund 1980 concert, available on the official DS YouTube channel. I feel that although the latter has keyboards, the former sounds better, especially because Hal's rythm guitar is nowhere near David's, which brings a unique groove to the song...
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Fully agree. David was mature enough to leave an increasingly famous and successful band. He could had stayed and getting his money for nothing but took the bravest decision. Leaving and pursuing his own career.
He's not in the richest list of people in the country but did good enough to earn a living.
I agree about David's choice beeing mature.
But I'm not sure that DS was "an increasingly famous and successful band" when he left it.
I think DS became very big with hits like Romeo and Juliet and later Private Investigations.
At the time of the Making Movies album recording, DS was not THAT big. Of course, Sultans had success, but Communiqué sales weren't at the top, and like Ed says in the Oldifield book, most venues during the 2nd american tour (autumn 79) were half empty.
So in july 80, when David left the band, I don't think it was at such a fame
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Fully agree. David was mature enough to leave an increasingly famous and successful band. He could had stayed and getting his money for nothing but took the bravest decision. Leaving and pursuing his own career.
He's not in the richest list of people in the country but did good enough to earn a living.
I agree about David's choice beeing mature.
But I'm not sure that DS was "an increasingly famous and successful band" when he left it.
I think DS became very big with hits like Romeo and Juliet and later Private Investigations.
At the time of the Making Movies album recording, DS was not THAT big. Of course, Sultans had success, but Communiqué sales weren't at the top, and like Ed says in the Oldifield book, most venues during the 2nd american tour (autumn 79) were half empty.
So in july 80, when David left the band, I don't think it was at such a fame
Yes, Ed wanted a change of musical direction, hence the Making Movies album and increase complexity with the addition of keyboards. The album will be a great success, but this had yet to be proven in summer 80. Still, the success trajectory was there, and David had a very concrete idea of what success (300 shows!). He couldn't handle the pression of touring well anyway, another reason for his departure.
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I agree about David's choice beeing mature.
But I'm not sure that DS was "an increasingly famous and successful band" when he left it.
I think DS became very big with hits like Romeo and Juliet and later Private Investigations.
At the time of the Making Movies album recording, DS was not THAT big. Of course, Sultans had success, but Communiqué sales weren't at the top, and like Ed says in the Oldifield book, most venues during the 2nd american tour (autumn 79) were half empty.
So in july 80, when David left the band, I don't think it was at such a fame
I think that, DK was mature enough to leave the band.
First, because, in my opinion, he is a "romantic" musician, it means that he had a vision for his career that as apart from MKs vision. So, when Mark came up with a new direction for DS, David's position became weaker than ever.
He saw that his songs will never would be on any DS album or single and his position as a 'rythm guitar player' will be the opposite from his vision as a musician perse.
As a guitar player, DK is not a session/side man. Was not his intent to play guitar as Hal, Jack or Phil.
As Mark, David is an artitist and both has singularities about their artforms. Mark is a genius in his own way, a very smart guy with a very comercial tinus. Mark chance the band directions many times because he knew that if the band had stucked on the style from 77 to 79, they wiould be forgotten.
The problem, in my opinion was that DK, after he left the band, choose another path for his musical solo jorney. I think that he was persuaded to made those strange metal oriented songs and he tooked it to keep a safe distance to his big brother band.
I think that, if DK would followed a path like Tom Fogerty has after his breakup with CCR, is possible that DK had more positive critics about his work. So, in my opinion, DK story could be better.
Proof of that was that, when David releases The Giver, his career, at least from my point of view, starts to be treated with respect.
DK is not a genius as his brother but he is not bad songwriter either. He have good songs and some of them could be part of any Straits record.
Again, if David would choose a folkish style from the beggining of his solo career, his story could be better.
As Hal Lindes said when he was questioned about filling DK shoes as a guitar player from DS: - David shoes are big shoes.
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It all depends on wether you want fame and money or doing what you like for less fame and less money but with more freedom and self-respect.
What's a pity is the family relationship being irremediably damaged, I think had David stayed it wouldn't have been long before he were forced to leave for a better player anyway
They kept John as the bass player to the end. They didn't search for a better player.
David was good enough and could had been better but he wasn't keen on what was happening so he didn't mind growing better. But in his solo career he did great things on piano and also on guitar clearly better that he did with DS. Clearly a case of motivation. If he had been motivated in the band he would had grown better and non other guitar player would had been needed. The next guitar players no matter how good they were had a complicated role to fill in either.
Yes he is a good guitar player I know but Mark wasn't happy with some of his playing and there's this famous argument about him not being able to play some rhythm part in Romeo. Granted Mark was probably annoyed with him and any excuse to force him to leave was welcome but there definitely was an issue with his musical ability or input according to Mark.
Ok John got to stay but how many guitar players and drummers did MK use? Hal, Jack, Phil etc...
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It all depends on wether you want fame and money or doing what you like for less fame and less money but with more freedom and self-respect.
What's a pity is the family relationship being irremediably damaged, I think had David stayed it wouldn't have been long before he were forced to leave for a better player anyway
They kept John as the bass player to the end. They didn't search for a better player.
David was good enough and could had been better but he wasn't keen on what was happening so he didn't mind growing better. But in his solo career he did great things on piano and also on guitar clearly better that he did with DS. Clearly a case of motivation. If he had been motivated in the band he would had grown better and non other guitar player would had been needed. The next guitar players no matter how good they were had a complicated role to fill in either.
Yes he is a good guitar player I know but Mark wasn't happy with some of his playing and there's this famous argument about him not being able to play some rhythm part in Romeo. Granted Mark was probably annoyed with him and any excuse to force him to leave was welcome but there definitely was an issue with his musical ability or input according to Mark.
Ok John got to stay but how many guitar players and drummers did MK use? Hal, Jack, Phil etc...
Mark wasn't happy with David because David wasn't happy with the band and his feelings were growing worse and worse so he wasn't in the same mood that during the first two years of the band. How can Mark can be happy with someone that isn't happy himself being there?
According to John's book, he went to talk to David and told him he had two options, to apologize with MK and keep working hard, or leaving, and David didn't hesitate to choose leaving. He wasn't happy, he wasn't in the mood to keep playing in the band. How can Mark can be happy with someone who didn't want to stay and leaves as soon as he is giving that choices?
I'm sure if David would had been more comfortable and happy in the band he would had stayed as long as John, but David wanted to work in his own songs so there were not chances for that in the band.
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I'm pretty sure that had David been allowed greater artistic input, he would have been motivated to stay in the band and work on improving as a musician. But imagine the feeling of gradually becoming being a useful idiot strummer in a "vehicle" that existed to realize Mark's dreams. And on top of that being Mark's "little brother". In my opinion, David's best songs are better than Mark's mediocre songs (especially lyrically), and with musical input from Mark, John and Pick, David's songs could have been shaped into some really good ones. It just wasn't going to happen, and I totally understand why David chose to leave (and later Pick).
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"In my opinion, David's best songs are better than Mark's mediocre songs (especially lyrically)
Any examples?
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"In my opinion, David's best songs are better than Mark's mediocre songs (especially lyrically)
Any examples?
An example of a good DK song (IMO): Ship of Dreams
An example of a mediocre MK song (IMO): My Bacon Roll
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I personnaly find My Bacon Roll quite fantastic, how to make a song about a topic that may seem silly at first glance but has a hidden meaning (about Brexit).
And it works really well live, the solo is outstanding !
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I personnaly find My Bacon Roll quite fantastic, how to make a song about a topic that may seem silly at first glance but has a hidden meaning (about Brexit).
And it works really well live, the solo is outstanding !
I agree.
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"In my opinion, David's best songs are better than Mark's mediocre songs (especially lyrically)
Any examples?
I wouldn't call any MK song as mediocre, but I agree that David's best songs would fit perfectly with MK songs, some in musical terms, some in lyrics and some in both.
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I personnaly find My Bacon Roll quite fantastic, how to make a song about a topic that may seem silly at first glance but has a hidden meaning (about Brexit).
And it works really well live, the solo is outstanding !
You took the words right out of my mouth, herlock! I think that the live version is miles better than the album, especially the solo and also the noodling at the end and the crashing guitar. Much better than Ship of Dreams - David's voice isn't for me!
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"In my opinion, David's best songs are better than Mark's mediocre songs (especially lyrically)
Any examples?
I wouldn't call any MK song as mediocre, but I agree that David's best songs would fit perfectly with MK songs, some in musical terms, some in lyrics and some in both.
I would call Song for Sony Liston, Wherever I go, All that matters, among others, quite mediocre. But not My Bacon Roll...
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"In my opinion, David's best songs are better than Mark's mediocre songs (especially lyrically)
Any examples?
I wouldn't call any MK song as mediocre, but I agree that David's best songs would fit perfectly with MK songs, some in musical terms, some in lyrics and some in both.
I would call Song for Sony Liston, Wherever I go, All the matters, among others, quite mediocre. But not My Bacon Roll...
I like all of those.
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I personnaly find My Bacon Roll quite fantastic, how to make a song about a topic that may seem silly at first glance but has a hidden meaning (about Brexit).
And it works really well live, the solo is outstanding !
You took the words right out of my mouth, herlock! I think that the live version is miles better than the album, especially the solo and also the noodling at the end and the crashing guitar. Much better than Ship of Dreams - David's voice isn't for me!
We're not discussing live versions or David's voice, but compositions and lyrics.
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I personnaly find My Bacon Roll quite fantastic, how to make a song about a topic that may seem silly at first glance but has a hidden meaning (about Brexit).
And it works really well live, the solo is outstanding !
You took the words right out of my mouth, herlock! I think that the live version is miles better than the album, especially the solo and also the noodling at the end and the crashing guitar. Much better than Ship of Dreams - David's voice isn't for me!
We're not discussing live versions or David's voice, but compositions and lyrics.
I like My Bacon Roll studio version too. The lyrics are stronger that it seems, and the melody is quite moving.
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I personnaly find My Bacon Roll quite fantastic, how to make a song about a topic that may seem silly at first glance but has a hidden meaning (about Brexit).
And it works really well live, the solo is outstanding !
You took the words right out of my mouth, herlock! I think that the live version is miles better than the album, especially the solo and also the noodling at the end and the crashing guitar. Much better than Ship of Dreams - David's voice isn't for me!
We're not discussing live versions or David's voice, but compositions and lyrics.
I like My Bacon Roll studio version too. The lyrics are stronger that it seems, and the melody is quite moving.
Another MK situational song:)
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I give up, guys. Mark could smear a pile of horse sh*t on the wall, and you would worship it.
If you're not able to see the quality of David's writing (I'm not a fan, and I don't like his voice, but it's totally beside the point), then too bad.
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"In my opinion, David's best songs are better than Mark's mediocre songs (especially lyrically)
Any examples?
I wouldn't call any MK song as mediocre, but I agree that David's best songs would fit perfectly with MK songs, some in musical terms, some in lyrics and some in both.
:thumbsup That's a good thought.
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Very good DK songs.
- Easy Street
- Mending My Nets
- A Father And A Son
- Til Your Ship Comes In
- A Clear Day
- Knig Of Ashes
- Sometimes There Are No Words
- 4U
- Ship Of Dreams
- Drowning Pool
- The Heart Of It
- True North
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Funnily, David and Hal Lindes are collaborating a lot lately! They cowrote a song in one of the last David's records and Hal played guitar in some David new tracks lately.
They interact a lot in Facebook!
Yep!
Big shoes!
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Funnily, David and Hal Lindes are collaborating a lot lately! They cowrote a song in one of the last David's records and Hal played guitar in some David new tracks lately.
They interact a lot in Facebook!
Interesting. It seems that in Dire Straits'world, those who left didn't resent at all their successors, even when they were less talented. Hal is less talented than David, but they get on well. Similarly, Terry is less talented than Pick, but the two seem very good pals. What about Mel Collins and Chris White (I think the former is more talented than the latter even if he was less present) ?
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Funnily, David and Hal Lindes are collaborating a lot lately! They cowrote a song in one of the last David's records and Hal played guitar in some David new tracks lately.
They interact a lot in Facebook!
Interesting. It seems that in Dire Straits'world, those who left didn't resent at all their successors, even when they were less talented. Hal is less talented than David, but they get on well. Similarly, Terry less talented than Pick, but the two seems very good pals. What about Mel Collins and Chris White (I think the former is more talented than the latter even if he was less present) ?
Seems that Mel Collins was too wild so he couldn't be a permanent member. Can't remember if I read it on John's book or in interviews but he did things like run naked played saxophone by the hotel corridors and also in the room terraces and things like that, I guess Chris White was less problematic in that regard, lol
Lol !
On the small subset where you can compare them in DS (Mel didn't play a lot),I find that Mel is quite a smoother player. Listen to the Alchemy sax intro (the last part that is also in 1985 versions) or Two Young Lovers, clearly, Mel is the better player IMHO. Too bad he didn't stay. After all, Mark accepted Jack Sonni, which behavior was not exactly boring either :D
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Mel's playing on the intro to TOL on Alchemy brings me to tears. Beyond beautiful.
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Andy Green:
How did you wind up joining Dire Straits for the Alchemy tour?
Mel Collins:
I got called in to play on this track “Two Young Lovers.” I got on with Mark [Knopfler] very well. They were planning a tour and they wanted to include “Two Young Lovers” and they asked me to come along and do the European tour. I think we did 12 days at Wembley. And so I became part of Dire Straits for a short while.
In that time, I was working with everybody. I did a tour with the Stray Cats. I did one with Roger Waters on his first solo tour. When it came around to do Brothers in Arms, I just wasn’t around to do that. There’s always someone to take your place, so I lost the gig with Dire Straits until recently when I’ve been playing with Dire Straits Legacy.
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Andy Green:
How did you wind up joining Dire Straits for the Alchemy tour?
Mel Collins:
I got called in to play on this track “Two Young Lovers.” I got on with Mark [Knopfler] very well. They were planning a tour and they wanted to include “Two Young Lovers” and they asked me to come along and do the European tour. I think we did 12 days at Wembley. And so I became part of Dire Straits for a short while.
In that time, I was working with everybody. I did a tour with the Stray Cats. I did one with Roger Waters on his first solo tour. When it came around to do Brothers in Arms, I just wasn’t around to do that. There’s always someone to take your place, so I lost the gig with Dire Straits until recently when I’ve been playing with Dire Straits Legacy.
Actually Chris White played on John's first record and in the Comfort and Joy MK's score so I guess they might had decided to call Chris instead of wild Mel, lol.
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"In my opinion, David's best songs are better than Mark's mediocre songs (especially lyrically)
Any examples?
An example of a good DK song (IMO): Ship of Dreams
An example of a mediocre MK song (IMO): My Bacon Roll
My Bacon Roll, one of the song I listen mainly for its lyrics (edit the solo is great too), a great song in my book, I was happy it made it to the tour setlist
I guess when it comes to songs we all have different opinion on what is a good song and fortunately so
I listened to most of David's song and there's a lack of simplicity at times that puts me off.
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"In my opinion, David's best songs are better than Mark's mediocre songs (especially lyrically)
Any examples?
I wouldn't call any MK song as mediocre, but I agree that David's best songs would fit perfectly with MK songs, some in musical terms, some in lyrics and some in both.
I would call Song for Sony Liston, Wherever I go, All that matters, among others, quite mediocre. But not My Bacon Roll...
One man’s trash……
I would never call Sonny mediocre. If STP has been described as a history lesson set to music, SFSL could surely be decided as a biography set to music. I do get that it’s probably a bit tireseome when it shows up so often on tour and I think I would have been annoyed if it replaced Sultans on the night I saw them in 2013. But I think it’s a good song.
Mediocre for me: Got to have Something, The Car was the One.
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How about Hand in Hand? Can a song get more sappy and cheesy? Even a song of John's could easily have replaced that one! :lol
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"In my opinion, David's best songs are better than Mark's mediocre songs (especially lyrically)
Any examples?
I wouldn't call any MK song as mediocre, but I agree that David's best songs would fit perfectly with MK songs, some in musical terms, some in lyrics and some in both.
I would call Song for Sony Liston, Wherever I go, All that matters, among others, quite mediocre. But not My Bacon Roll...
One man’s trash……
I would never call Sonny mediocre. If STP has been described as a history lesson set to music, SFSL could surely be decided as a biography set to music. I do get that it’s probably a bit tireseome when it shows up so often on tour and I think I would have been annoyed if it replaced Sultans on the night I saw them in 2013. But I think it’s a good song.
Mediocre for me: Got to have Something, The Car was the One.
SFSL is certaninly worhwile lyrically, but I just can't stand the repetitive "melody"...
In 2023 it did not replace Sultans. Gator Blood did. Another song that gets on my nerves...
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SFSL, a very long song with a repetitive melody and small dynamic range which is basically a musical descriptive summary of Sonny Liston's biography. What's not to like? ;D Mark has indeed released a number of songs "just because he can".
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It's easy to say it now, but let's imagine DK first solo album in a Folkish Style like Dylan, or on a early DS style with less guitar approach.
David Knopfler - Release
- Whats The Matter Baby
- Bernardette
- Southside Tenements
- Madonna's Daughter
- Little Brother
- Soul Kissing
- Come To Me
- Sacred Lovin
Well, i agree that DK is not the best vocalist in the world, but with this songs, thisimagintive album would be great.
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It's easy to say it now, but let's imagine DK first solo album in a Folkish Style like Dylan, or on a early DS style with less guitar approach.
David Knopfler - Release
- Whats The Matter Baby
- Bernardette
- Southside Tenements
- Madonna's Daughter
- Little Brother
- Soul Kissing
- Come To Me
- Sacred Lovin
Well, i agree that DK is not the best vocalist in the world, but with this songs, thisimagintive album would be great.
I've listened to David's 80s albums today, and unfortunately the production has not held up and sounds very dated today. I like many of the songs, though, but it takes some effort to look past his voice and the production. Fast forward to Small Mercies - now that's a different story. Very solid album, and the voice is much better.
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I think that, DK was mature enough to leave the band.
First, because, in my opinion, he is a "romantic" musician, it means that he had a vision for his career that as apart from MKs vision. So, when Mark came up with a new direction for DS, David's position became weaker than ever.
He saw that his songs will never would be on any DS album or single and his position as a 'rythm guitar player' will be the opposite from his vision as a musician perse.
As a guitar player, DK is not a session/side man. Was not his intent to play guitar as Hal, Jack or Phil.
As Mark, David is an artitist and both has singularities about their artforms. Mark is a genius in his own way, a very smart guy with a very comercial tinus. Mark chance the band directions many times because he knew that if the band had stucked on the style from 77 to 79, they wiould be forgotten.
The problem, in my opinion was that DK, after he left the band, choose another path for his musical solo jorney. I think that he was persuaded to made those strange metal oriented songs and he tooked it to keep a safe distance to his big brother band.
I think that, if DK would followed a path like Tom Fogerty has after his breakup with CCR, is possible that DK had more positive critics about his work. So, in my opinion, DK story could be better.
Proof of that was that, when David releases The Giver, his career, at least from my point of view, starts to be treated with respect.
DK is not a genius as his brother but he is not bad songwriter either. He have good songs and some of them could be part of any Straits record.
Again, if David would choose a folkish style from the beggining of his solo career, his story could be better.
As Hal Lindes said when he was questioned about filling DK shoes as a guitar player from DS: - David shoes are big shoes.
My thoughts about DK solo career.
I've listened to David's 80s albums today, and unfortunately the production has not held up and sounds very dated today. I like many of the songs, though, but it takes some effort to look past his voice and the production. Fast forward to Small Mercies - now that's a different story. Very solid album, and the voice is much better.
I cannot listen DK's 80s albums.
Very cheesy and dated.
Small Mercies is good.
In my opinion, Ship Of Dreams is his best one.
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Most of those "mediocre" songs are some of my favourite...
;D
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Most of those "mediocre" songs are some of my favourite...
;D
Yeah, you never know what song will resonate with people. It may be obscured, strange, too simple or ridiculous, but it may come at exactly the right place and exactly the right time for somebody. I lost count of times when all sorts of simple and "mediocre" songs saved my life. And renowned masterpieces? Well, these songs changed the lives of millions. That's the beauty of songs.
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Most of those "mediocre" songs are some of my favourite...
;D
Yeah, you never know what song will resonate with people. It may be obscured, strange, too simple or ridiculous, but it may come at exactly the right place and exactly the right time for somebody. I lost count of times when all sorts of simple and "mediocre" songs saved my life. And renowned masterpieces? Well, these songs changed the lives of millions. That's the beauty of songs.
Some of Mark's songs are considered minor by many, but I keep listening to them:
- Rudiger
- Are we in trouble now
- A place we used to live
- Long cool girl
- Lights of Taormina
- When you leave
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"In my opinion, David's best songs are better than Mark's mediocre songs (especially lyrically)
Any examples?
I wouldn't call any MK song as mediocre, but I agree that David's best songs would fit perfectly with MK songs, some in musical terms, some in lyrics and some in both.
I would call Song for Sony Liston, Wherever I go, All that matters, among others, quite mediocre. But not My Bacon Roll...
One man’s trash……
I would never call Sonny mediocre. If STP has been described as a history lesson set to music, SFSL could surely be decided as a biography set to music. I do get that it’s probably a bit tireseome when it shows up so often on tour and I think I would have been annoyed if it replaced Sultans on the night I saw them in 2013. But I think it’s a good song.
Mediocre for me: Got to have Something, The Car was the One.
SFSL is certaninly worhwile lyrically, but I just can't stand the repetitive "melody"...
In 2023 it did not replace Sultans. Gator Blood did. Another song that gets on my nerves...
Turns out we’re both right!
Sometimes it was Sonny, sometimes Gator Blood.
https://www.amarkintime.org/forum/index.php?topic=3390.0
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SFSL, a very long song with a repetitive melody and small dynamic range which is basically a musical descriptive summary of Sonny Liston's biography. What's not to like? ;D Mark has indeed released a number of songs "just because he can".
Brilliant. And 100% accurate. :clap
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Most of those "mediocre" songs are some of my favourite...
;D
Yeah, you never know what song will resonate with people. It may be obscured, strange, too simple or ridiculous, but it may come at exactly the right place and exactly the right time for somebody. I lost count of times when all sorts of simple and "mediocre" songs saved my life. And renowned masterpieces? Well, these songs changed the lives of millions. That's the beauty of songs.
Beautiful words. I feel the same.
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SFSL, a very long song with a repetitive melody and small dynamic range which is basically a musical descriptive summary of Sonny Liston's biography. What's not to like? ;D Mark has indeed released a number of songs "just because he can".
Brilliant. And 100% accurate. :clap
Sonny is a rare example of a musician's song in Marks's repertoire. If you're a guitar player, a drummer, a bass player or love these instruments and a blues aficionado, you will love it, for anyone else however... Yeah, I can imagine the struggle of falling in love with this song. Bob Dylan called it his favourite MK song tho.
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My problem with David's solo work is that to my ears in terms of chords, melody, harmony, its starting to sound like he's rewriting the same song over and over. Don't get me wrong, loved much of his work from the giver onwards, its just sounding all the same, which would be fine if you hadn't listened to anything previous. I don't yet get the same thing with Mark. There's been some self referencing and the occasional pinch from older work but he somehow manages to steer clear of such pitfalls. His character driven songs are transcendent, they exist in their own little universes, their own sonic space if you will.....
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My problem with David's solo work is that to my ears in terms of chords, melody, harmony, its starting to sound like he's rewriting the same song over and over. Don't get me wrong, loved much of his work from the giver onwards, its just sounding all the same, which would be fine if you hadn't listened to anything previous. I don't yet get the same thing with Mark. There's been some self referencing and the occasional pinch from older work but he somehow manages to steer clear of such pitfalls. His character driven songs are transcendent, they exist in their own little universes, their own sonic space if you will.....
Don't get me wrong, I definitely think Mark is the more musically gifted of the two and has produced more varied and memorable music than David. Plus he has the asset of being extraordinarily gifted on the guitar. But as I was listening to a number of David's albums yesterday, I was surprised to discover the breadth and quality of much of David's music. I especially liked Small Mercies, Wishbones and Ship of Dreams. I didn't listen to his most recent releases (from 2019 onwards), but I seem to remember finding them very boring when listening to them when they came out. And they sounded very home made and low budget. I should revisit them as well. Anyway, I still stand by my earlier proposition, that David's best songs are better than Mark's "less good" ones, and hadn't Mark been on such an ego trip in the early years, David's songs could very well have worked in Dire Straits.
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I agree that David best songs, also John's could had fit in DS records. Maybe if the cd would had appeared some years before with capacity of more that one hour of music, some of theirs could had find a place and with the arrangement abilities of Mark and the band, the songs would had sound very Straits for sure.
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If we consider the first DS album – which is difficult because we know it so well and the songs therefore seem to create such a natural unit – I think there are songs on there that are good, but not necessarily indispensable. Songs like Water of Love or Six Blade Knife for example. Of course now they are classics and we love them, but strictly speaking they are not so great that nothing else of equal caliber could have replaced them. I'm curious what would have happened if John, David and Pick had voted in favor of one or two of David's songs ...
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If we consider the first DS album – which is difficult because we know it so well and the songs therefore seem to create such a natural unit – I think there are songs on there that are good, but not necessarily indispensable. Songs like Water of Love or Six Blade Knife for example. Of course now they are classics and we love them, but strictly speaking they are not so great that nothing else of equal caliber could have replaced them. I'm curious what would have happened if John, David and Pick had voted in favor of one or two of David's songs ...
I always think that when the band was broke and trying to get a contract, they had a very limited amount of money to record a demo, and they recorded a song by David (Sacred loving) in that demo.
Think about it.
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My problem with David's solo work is that to my ears in terms of chords, melody, harmony, its starting to sound like he's rewriting the same song over and over. Don't get me wrong, loved much of his work from the giver onwards, its just sounding all the same, which would be fine if you hadn't listened to anything previous. I don't yet get the same thing with Mark. There's been some self referencing and the occasional pinch from older work but he somehow manages to steer clear of such pitfalls. His character driven songs are transcendent, they exist in their own little universes, their own sonic space if you will.....
I agree with that.
Most of DK songs, in terms of chords and melody, are very limited.
The piano ones are very similar on each other.
Funny that, my dad always sas that DS songs are all the same, specially of the early period.
But is unfair to compare DK with MK.
Mark is a genius in songwriting, guitar playing and sound craft. A very sensitive guy who writes about everything. Because of that, Mark is surrounded by the finest musicians, producers, engeneers, movie makers...
David has good songs.
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David really needs to be evaluated on his own terms, and not compared to Mark. And for sure not viewed as an inferior version of Mark. I feel David sounds more like artists such as Springsteen, Dylan, (late career) Cooder, John Hiatt, etc, i.e. artists with a less elaborate musical expression. Just now I'm listening to his Heartlands album. First of all it sounds great, much better than I remembered. And even though I'm not a fan of David's voice (it's growing on me), he sings with lots of emotion and presence. Something which I find sorely missing in Mark's recent music.
I am actually surprised by myself. I had never thought I'd come to enjoy David's music.
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Maybe if the cd would had appeared some years before with capacity of more that one hour of music, some of theirs could had find a place
even on vinyl, there was some free space still avalaible.
DS records don't fit all the space on vinyl.
Some other records from the seventies (Genesis comes to mind) are longer than DS' ones
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How about Hand in Hand? Can a song get more sappy and cheesy? Even a song of John's could easily have replaced that one! :lol
Yes, Hand in Hand is very poor. Very weedy and the lyrics are just a pile of cliches.
But let's face facts, from day one, no songs from anyone else were going to get on a DS album. :)
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I'm sorry but I have to defend Hand To Hand.
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I'm sorry but I have to defend Hand To Hand.
Defend away! It's just opinions and as we know, opinions are like arseholes, everybody has one and most don't stand up to close scrutiny. :)
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How about Hand in Hand? Can a song get more sappy and cheesy? Even a song of John's could easily have replaced that one! :lol
Yes, Hand in Hand is very poor. Very weedy and the lyrics are just a pile of cliches.
But let's face facts, from day one, no songs from anyone else were going to get on a DS album. :)
I'd agree about Hand in Hand; similar to Darling Pretty in the cliché department but the guitar rescues that song. All That Matters is another, but that is just a repetition of the same couple of clichés! Must have spent all of 5 minutes writing that classic. ::)
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How about Hand in Hand? Can a song get more sappy and cheesy? Even a song of John's could easily have replaced that one! :lol
Yes, Hand in Hand is very poor. Very weedy and the lyrics are just a pile of cliches.
But let's face facts, from day one, no songs from anyone else were going to get on a DS album. :)
I'd agree about Hand in Hand; similar to Darling Pretty in the cliché department but the guitar rescues that song. All That Matters is another, but that is just a repetition of the same couple of clichés! Must have spent all of 5 minutes writing that classic. ::)
All That Matters particularly resonates as a parent. I remember singing it to my boy when he was born 16 years ago.
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All That Matters particularly resonates as a parent.
True, it does, but it doesn't necessarily make it a great song, or release worthy. Not to mention how it sticks out like the proverbial sore thumb on the Shangri-La album ;D
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Again, we'll just need to disagree, I loved it even before I was a parent!
Whoop De Doo is maybe my favourite MK song, I remember someone refused to believe that a while back, on here or facebook or whatever.
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Again, we'll just need to disagree, I loved it even before I was a parent!
Whoop De Doo is maybe my favourite MK song, I remember someone refused to believe that a while back, on here or facebook or whatever.
Whoop de doo - now we are talking! An amazing MK Track!
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So, I guess we don't know who wrote what part of What's The Matter Baby?
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So, I guess we don't know who wrote what part of What's The Matter Baby?
LOL, yeah, the discussion took a couple of left turns there.
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So, I guess we don't know who wrote what part of What's The Matter Baby?
I agree with what Pavel said :
I think with What's The Matter Baby it was David who wrote the song, and Mark who wrote the guitar part, the guitar break (aka intro) and probably altered the words, hence the writing credit. Can hardly imagine David coming up with intricate guitar harmonies like this.
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I am not on Facebook, but I wonder if David would answer the question if someone asked.
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I am not on Facebook, but I wonder if David would answer the question if someone asked.
I bet yes. he often answers questions like this
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I am not on Facebook, but I wonder if David would answer the question if someone asked.
I think he already answered years ago that he wrote the music and Mk the lyrics...
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David always sounds like Peter Pan to me, very immature, a grownup with a teen mentality. If I was in his position, being a no more than average musician and having a genius big brother, I’d certainly embrace it rather than helplessly fighting for room in the band.
He had the great courage to leave a highly succesful band to do his own stuff rather than fulfilling his others' dreams.
A path the Mark will ultimately follow... 12 years after his brother! Just provoking: which brother is most immature? ;)
It makes no sense, if DS was Mark’s band not David’s how come only now he followed his dreams? And I’m not saying David’s immature for leaving DS, he was allowed to, he was young. I say that because he’s old now and keeps bringing it up all the time. Get over it, man.