A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: 2manyguitars on December 16, 2023, 01:05:36 PM
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Came across this on YT and don't recall seeing it before. Could be my faded memory but I thought I'd post anyway....
https://youtu.be/-WRMz3bLMNM?si=IHOvuVNFAVkQdQDH (https://youtu.be/-WRMz3bLMNM?si=IHOvuVNFAVkQdQDH)
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Thanks!
Listening how cheerfully Marks speaks about Terry, one can really wonder why he "didn't meet the grade for OES" a couple of years later...
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Thanks!
Listening how cheerfully Marks speaks about Terry, one can really wonder why he "didn't meet the grade for OES" a couple of years later...
And not even talking to him ??? If true, that is truly baffling.
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It did amuse me, all the BIA stuff used as background music that TW didn't play on!
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Thanks!
Listening how cheerfully Marks speaks about Terry, one can really wonder why he "didn't meet the grade for OES" a couple of years later...
And not even talking to him ??? If true, that is truly baffling.
Thanks, this was new for me as well. You rarely get full official features like this about musicians, it means they really "made it". What a great guy.
Kudos to him for acknowledging he's just the drummer in the band and not wanting to lead a Terry Williams Band or whatever. Some instruments are not meant to be the main event (IMHO). Oscar Peterson Trio is nice, but it feels odd when the drummer leads the way and you've got a drum set front and centre on stage.
His relationships with Mr Knopfler? Personally I don't care...
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Kudos to him for acknowledging he's just the drummer in the band and not wanting to lead a Terry Williams Band or whatever.
It's irrelevant.
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Thanks!
Listening how cheerfully Marks speaks about Terry, one can really wonder why he "didn't meet the grade for OES" a couple of years later...
I think Terry was no longer involved quite soon after the BIA tour. I don't know why.
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Thanks!
Listening how cheerfully Marks speaks about Terry, one can really wonder why he "didn't meet the grade for OES" a couple of years later...
I think Terry was no longer involved quite soon after the BIA tour. I don't know why.
Well he was still the DS drummer at the Mandela gig, in 1988, 2 years after the end of the BIA tour.
On his forum Guy once said "Terry didn't meet the grade for OES". It seems that Terry was what Mark wanted for the LOG and BIA tours (moving from pub to stadium rock, need for a drummer less subtle but more powerful than Pick) but yet he was not quite satisfied by this approach, at least for studio: we all know the sad story of Terry forced to leave Montserrat during the BIA sessions, with only the MFN intro and a bit of walk of life kept from his work, the rest being re-recorded by Omar Hakim, a drummer much more similar to Pick in terms of subtility than Terry... But then Terry was asked to come back for the tour... I think Mark for OES wanted a drummer who would be both powerful and subtle - So Jeff, Manu, and yourself....:) Terry was sidelined, never to return, just like Jack Sonni...
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Terry was initialy intended for recording on OES and that what a surprise to me when I learnt this, as for years I was conviced that Mark did not think about him for OES.
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Kudos to him for acknowledging he's just the drummer in the band and not wanting to lead a Terry Williams Band or whatever.
It's irrelevant.
You must be fun at... parties :lol Sorry.
Transcript of the video:
[Talking about playing in local bands in Wales] People have come out to Terry and said, why isn't it called "Terry Williams Band because you were in Dire Straits and very famous? And Terry's answer would be "Well, I'm just a drummer in the band"
Where in the name of Buddy Rich, Ringo Starr and Joey Jordison I was wrong again?
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I'm saying if you want to celebrate Terry Williams, not having led his own band is the least thing I would highlight.
It's irrelevant.
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It's a tough one.
If you're good enough to play live to millions of people you are good enough to make the record.
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Neil Dorfsman said this about recording Brothers In Arms:
"Perhaps my bedside manner wasn't the best in the sense that I always wanted the music to be the most important thing," Dorfsman now admits. "Not that I would be mean, but I would constantly be pushing for things to be different from how they were if they didn't feel right. At the same time, I would tell Mark my concerns, knowing that, as his co-producer, I could always take the blame if he decided to take action. That's part of the job description. And so finally, even though Mark had been a little bit more patient, a little bit more tolerant with the band, he got a sense that maybe things weren't happening the way they could and he decided to act.
"To me, the record was sounding more like a demo, and this really hit home when we tried to do the song 'Ride Across The River', with its white-boy reggae feel. It was laying there like lead. I don't think Terry felt that rhythm, and that was totally understandable. Having played with Dave Edmunds and Rockpile, that wasn't what he was famous for. He was a great drummer, but his style was more straight-ahead rock & roll, whereas Omar's style was more polyrhythmic and better suited to the direction in which Mark was going. The material needed the kind of glossy sheen that Omar brought, as well as his versatility — there was a lot of different music on the record: 'Your Latest Trick' was kind of jazzy and 'Ride Across The River' had that reggae-ish feel, so we needed a drummer who was versed in a lot of different styles and Omar fit the bill in that regard.
"Believe me, it was a load off my mind when he played that first tune and knocked everybody out. It was a big deal to fly somebody in from New York, not really knowing 100 percent if things would go according to plan. I had worked with him a bunch in the past and knew he was great, but I still didn't really know if he was going to be the right guy for the job. Thank God, for that particular record, the right call was made. There were definitely some sweaty moments."
Source: https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/classic-tracks-dire-straits-money-nothing
So if they went through all this trouble recording Brothers In Arms, why would they bother to repeat it while recording On Every Street, which in a lot of ways is similar to Brothers In Arms and even more varied, when you can resort to using great session drummers from the get-go? Meanwhile, Terry's chops were absolutely fine for the live environment it seems, but he was replaced by Chris, and luckily, we have him on this forum to tell us first-hand why it may have happened.
The most astonishing part of all this to me is that Omar learned, prepared and recorded all the parts for the album in a matter of a couple of days. What a legend. Reminds me of how Larry Knechtel came up with an epic and timeless piano arrangement of "Bridge Over Troubled Water" just as fast according to Paul Simon. Great and versatile musicians don't need a lot of time to create gold, they just emerge out of nowhere and do the job, as if sent from the heavens with this one task.
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With all this said in my previous post, my theory would be, as DS needed to record a live album and Mark knew it, he would continue with the same logic and hire a great and known session drummer to do this right. No offense to Terry. And in no way Mark acts as an a-hole here, as song is king and they just tried to make the best recording. Judging by a lot of people complaining On The Night sounds like a studio album instead of the live album, I think they succeeded, but maybe not in a way to suit everybody's taste.
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This is all very interesting. Terry Williams was the drummer on the Brothers In Arms tour. And the setlist included Ride Across The River and Your Latest Trick. And we know that Terry was great at concerts, but not in the studio? But I understand the subtle differences:)
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This is all very interesting. Terry Williams was the drummer on the Brothers In Arms tour. And the setlist included Ride Across The River and Your Latest Trick. And we know that Terry was great at concerts, but not in the studio? But I understand the subtle differences:)
One of the best quotes I know is "Your band is as good as your drummer". A drummer and a bass player are the foundation everything else is built on top of, rhythm-section is the most important part of all this. I still remember working as a roadie on jazz festivals and listening to drummers and bass players essentially providing 80% of the experience on soundcheck. It's jazz, it's swing, it's the feel, drive, and emotion, it's everything.
The difference is very subtle, but not so much. Pete Best played with The Beatles for 2 years before being famously fired and swapped to Ringo Starr to record in the studio. Fortunately, we do have recordings with Pete, and it's quite obvious why they would do this, he just wasn't great, and the studio amplified it 1000 times. Even Ringo was replaced by a studio drummer to record "Love Me Do", and he felt that he would also be fired. But we all know how it went for him.
So never underestimate the importance of the drummer. Mark got EXTREMELY lucky having a drummer as good as Mr Withers and got equally unlucky with his departure, having to resort to changing drummers as gloves for the rest of his career. Now, don't get me wrong, Terry IS a great drummer and always has been, just maybe not suitable for every song out there, I think Mr Dorfsman explained it best.
For Mark's first solo album, should he still prefer to stick with Dire Straits, it would most certainly have John Illsley replaced as well because songs demanded the same versatility from bass as drums in Brothers In Arms and On Every Street. As we know, this is pretty much what happened anyway, and John Illsley was replaced with mighty Glenn Worth who can play any bass and any bass line in existence. And even with "One World", John was already replaced for 1 song.
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But Dire Straits was not a jazz band.
It's a rock 'n' roll orchestra and from the moment you can keep with the tempo you are good enough to play some rock.
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But Dire Straits was not a jazz band.
It's a rock 'n' roll orchestra and from the moment you can keep with the tempo you are good enough to play some rock.
Exactly! Terry Williams undoubtedly provided the best rock 'n' roll background Mark and fans could only dream of. It does sound great live and on the record, the energy, and the character is top-notch. Terry is an amazing drummer favoured by many.
But just like not every actor could play in theatre or improvise, some situations require a different approach. You won't be hiring a great actor to film a commercial, it needs to be polished and look good, perfect, not exactly have a character.
Apparently, Mark and Neil went after this glossy shine mentioned in an article on recording BiA, and that's something Terry could not deliver. Once again Mark did everything for Terry to stay in the band and brought him to Montserrat, but songs demanded some sacrifices.
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It is hard to deny that the drumming on BIA simply sounds "right". It just fits. Maybe I would have liked some more oomph in MFN, but there are still small nuances here and there that fit the song and Mark's work.
It seems a bit odd, though, that Omar had to play on everything (except the MFN intro). YLT and RATR seem to have odd time signatures and off-beats, so that's understandable, but Walk of Life? Or what did they keep by Terry on that one?
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How many studio records are featuring hired musician performing parts instead of the regular band member?
Sometimes fully credited for doing so.
Sometimes only appearing in the thank section without more details.
Sometimes publicly uncredited.
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It sounds like Neil Dofrsman instigated the drummer change on BIA.
I saw the same thing on the McCartney album we all worked on. Neil's idea is to hire the top two or three drummers in the world, which is fine, but it doesn't suit every project.
Omar Hakim and Jeff Porcaro are in the top five studio drummers category, Porcaro first or second on that list.
Those guys don't want to tour, well not when they can live at home, earn more money and record a dozen or more albums in a year.
Mark obviously took Terry out to Monserrat fully expecting him to be the drummer on the album, until Neil persuaded him otherwise.
BTW, most studio drummers can cut a track having never heard it before the session, so Hakim is not unusual in that regard. It's part of the job.
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Studio musician was a full time job. I don't know if it is still the case now.
A famous guitarist in the circle of parisian studios has also explained why he did never tour despite liking performing on stage : over the time the different record producers that employs him had put him on first position when they needed a session guitarist.
Going on the road would have made loose him that position, so part of his job was somewhat to always remain available.
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That's right on both counts.
Not much regular work for studio musicians since piracy and streaming, so they are on the road now.
Back in the day you made more money in the studio than on the road, and yes, someone would have taken your place if you weren't available.
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I seem to remember Paul Franklin said he had similar concerns when he was considering whether to join the DS touring band. He has never expressed any regrets as far as I know.
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And even with "One World", John was already replaced for 1 song.
He was also replaced in "why worry" by Neil Jason
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And even with "One World", John was already replaced for 1 song.
He was also replaced in "why worry" by Neil Jason
No, according to Wikipedia refering to John Illsley's book :
Neil Jason – bass on "One World"[17][59]
Tony Levin – Chapman Stick on "Why Worry"[60]
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I'm saying if you want to celebrate Terry Williams, not having led his own band is the least thing I would highlight.
It's irrelevant.
I find it totally relevant.
Terry never wanted to have his own band because what he was, he was just the drummer in the band, not the star in the band.
Totally relevant.
And perfectly well highlighted by Quizzy. Actually that's the thing that called my attention too when I saw that documentary the first time. Terry is as humble as great drummer he was.
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And even with "One World", John was already replaced for 1 song.
He was also replaced in "why worry" by Neil Jason
No, according to Wikipedia refering to John Illsley's book :
Neil Jason – bass on "One World"[17][59]
Tony Levin – Chapman Stick on "Why Worry"[60]
John's book is full of inaccuracies, and I think that was one of them.
For example, he says after Mandela's concert, Terry Williams left the band. He didn't left the band. He played with DS in Newcastle and according to dsis newsletters, in Egham charity concerts in 1989, and thanks to Chuck Ainlay, we know Terry was at the start of the OES recording sessions and after that, he was left out not only from the record but from the touring band, that's a little later to Mandela's concert and I won't say he actually left the band at all but was replaced totally.
Also John says he was harmed during Going home in one of the last shows in Spain in 1992. They never played that song in that tour and actually that happened in 1985 in Bilbao gig, is well documented by the press.
Just a few examples of his inaccuracies in his book. And they are totally logical, he lived a lot of things and they are mixed in his memory, for him those things are memories, for as they are facts, that's why sometimes fans knows better than the musicians themselves, as Guy Fletcher says in his forum from time to time, "you know us better than we do"
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I'm saying if you want to celebrate Terry Williams, not having led his own band is the least thing I would highlight.
It's irrelevant.
I find it totally relevant.
Terry never wanted to have his own band because what he was, he was just the drummer in the band, not the star in the band.
Totally relevant.
And perfectly well highlighted by Quizzy. Actually that's the thing that called my attention too when I saw that documentary the first time. Terry is as humble as great drummer he was.
Terry does indeed seem like a lovely, humble guy, but not everyone has the ability, and/or even wants, to be a bandleader, though. But that doesn't take anything away from this his achievements or greatness as a drummer.
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I'm saying if you want to celebrate Terry Williams, not having led his own band is the least thing I would highlight.
It's irrelevant.
I find it totally relevant.
Terry never wanted to have his own band because what he was, he was just the drummer in the band, not the star in the band.
Totally relevant.
And perfectly well highlighted by Quizzy. Actually that's the thing that called my attention too when I saw that documentary the first time. Terry is as humble as great drummer he was.
Terry does indeed seem like a lovely, humble guy, but not everyone has the ability, and/or even wants, to be a bandleader, though. But that doesn't take anything away from this achievements or greatness as a drummer.
I play drums in a very amateur way and I totally identify with him. I can't read music, actually I don't want to read music because when I do it I got distracted and loose it, so I play by heart, same than Terry, as the song really tells you what to play. I would never do it as a studio musician, but I would have lot of fun playing with my friends.
Terry got to play with some of the greatest, which is a big achievement for any musician. And he's a Loveland down to hearth person.
I felt sad when I saw him playing in the Guitars festival in Sevilla in 92 instead of being with DS. He played a hell of a gig! I missed him with DS.
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Terry was terrific. Just as Pick was so integral to the early DS sound, Terry was key to the live DS sound in the 80s. I mean, Alchemy – I get goosebumps just by thinking about his playing on Once Upon a Time.
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And even with "One World", John was already replaced for 1 song.
He was also replaced in "why worry" by Neil Jason
No, according to Wikipedia refering to John Illsley's book :
Neil Jason – bass on "One World"[17][59]
Tony Levin – Chapman Stick on "Why Worry"[60]
I think it's the contrary
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Terry never wanted to have his own band because what he was, he was just the drummer in the band, not the star in the band.
Totally relevant.
The comment was first made about Pick Withers leaving Dire STRAITS. It REALLY is irrelevant. Terry, like most other drummers treated his role in DS with respect, so did I. Charlie Watts had his own band. No one ear suggested it showed a lack of respect to The Stones, or somehow compromised his role in The Stones.
It's some weirdly prejudiced view of drummers, that if they want to have their own band on their own time it somehow reflects badly on their playing in Dire Straits. Nonsense. Irrelevant.
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John had solo albums during the lifetime of DS. Does that make him egotistical, not respecting his role as "just the bass player' in Dire Straits?
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John had solo albums during the lifetime of DS. Does that make him egotistical, not respecting his role as "just the bass player' in Dire Straits?
That's not the point and nodody meant that, but you are free as anyone else to express whatever..
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That's not the point and nodody meant that, but you are free as anyone else to express whatever..
If I misunderstood, fine....what is the point?
I first read it from 'Quizz' in connection with Pick leaving Dire Straits, where the opinion was expressed that his career would have been better accepting he was 'just the drummer in the band' a band that had a 'genius' songwriter and guitarist. It was a put down in my opinion.
As a drummer in several bands, it is irrelevant if at some point I decide to start my own band, or make some solo records, however bad.
I give my all to support the songs and the singer (who ever it is) I'm working with.
There is no difference in the regard between Pick and Terry.
I've never needed to start my own band and I'm happy to be 'just the drummer' if the songs are great and I admire the other musicians. I think most drummers are like that.
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And even with "One World", John was already replaced for 1 song.
He was also replaced in "why worry" by Neil Jason
No, according to Wikipedia refering to John Illsley's book :
Neil Jason – bass on "One World"[17][59]
Tony Levin – Chapman Stick on "Why Worry"[60]
I think it's the contrary
I had the info BEFORE John Illsley wrote his book and this info was already spoken somewhere on this forum.
Everybody though that the slap was Tony but...NO! Quite surprising isn't it?
From Session Madness: Tales From Inside The Groove (https://bassmagazine.com/issues/issue-10/session-madness-tales-from-inside-the-groove/) article
"Truly the surprise of the session was one of the last tracks cut, “One World,” where Knopfler let the full Neil Jason — slapping, effects, and all — emerge."
[...]
"For “One World,” Jason surmises that it was the hard-edged, funky nature of the groove that led him to move from finger plucking to thumb slaps and index-finger pops, with Knopfler’s approval. He laughs, “Knowing Mark’s experimental nature and commitment to getting just the right sounds on a track emboldened me to try out some pedals."
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I had the info BEFORE John Illsley wrote his book and this info was already spoken somewhere on this forum.
Everybody though that the slap was Tony but...NO! Quite surprising isn't it?
From Session Madness: Tales From Inside The Groove (https://bassmagazine.com/issues/issue-10/session-madness-tales-from-inside-the-groove/) article
"Truly the surprise of the session was one of the last tracks cut, “One World,” where Knopfler let the full Neil Jason — slapping, effects, and all — emerge."
[...]
"For “One World,” Jason surmises that it was the hard-edged, funky nature of the groove that led him to move from finger plucking to thumb slaps and index-finger pops, with Knopfler’s approval. He laughs, “Knowing Mark’s experimental nature and commitment to getting just the right sounds on a track emboldened me to try out some pedals."
Great article! I have never seen this before. I actually didn't know who Neil Jason was until very recently, and I was sure it was Tony Levin who played on One World. The biggest surprise is that Mark had Neil play on many (all?) the tracks. I was sure all bass tracks had been played by John in Montserrat, but only the very un-John-like bass on One World was recorded later. You learn something every day.
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I had the info BEFORE John Illsley wrote his book and this info was already spoken somewhere on this forum.
Everybody though that the slap was Tony but...NO! Quite surprising isn't it?
From Session Madness: Tales From Inside The Groove (https://bassmagazine.com/issues/issue-10/session-madness-tales-from-inside-the-groove/) article
"Truly the surprise of the session was one of the last tracks cut, “One World,” where Knopfler let the full Neil Jason — slapping, effects, and all — emerge."
[...]
"For “One World,” Jason surmises that it was the hard-edged, funky nature of the groove that led him to move from finger plucking to thumb slaps and index-finger pops, with Knopfler’s approval. He laughs, “Knowing Mark’s experimental nature and commitment to getting just the right sounds on a track emboldened me to try out some pedals."
Great article! I have never seen this before. I actually didn't know who Neil Jason was until very recently, and I was sure it was Tony Levin who played on One World. The biggest surprise is that Mark had Neil play on many (all?) the tracks. I was sure all bass tracks had been played by John in Montserrat, but only the very un-John-like bass on One World was recorded later. You learn something every day.
I remember that because of those songs, Alan used to joke telling that he was the only DS member who played in all the tracks recorded by DS since joining the band, and it's true. :lol
Excep MK, of course.
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To get this straight, what songs do not feature John on BIA? And is Terry on anything besides MFN intro?
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To get this straight, what songs do not feature John on BIA? And is Terry on anything besides MFN intro?
Why worry and One world.
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To get this straight, what songs do not feature John on BIA? And is Terry on anything besides MFN intro?
WOL according to TWs wiki quoting a sound on sound interview with ND.
So basically pick someone!
Also apparently some of TWs drum fills were used in song on MFN, not just the intro...