A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: qjamesfloyd on January 03, 2024, 01:39:59 PM
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Mark rightly get most of the plaudits in Dire Straits, but, I have always thought John Illsley gets overlooked, and not enough praise, so, I though we should show some love for John in Dire Straits. I don't think John would be classed as one of the greatest Bass players ever, but he is a very good player, of course his Bass is really highlighted in the 2nd half of Private Investigations, but tell us about your Illsley highlights.
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In the context of the music we associate John with, he has the ability to play exactly what is right. Not more, not less. He is rock solid and never draws attention to himself. He fully understands his function and role. I think he really shines on the first two DS albums. The live highlights for me have always been his playing on Once Upon A Time on Alchemy. God, I love that groove. His playing on You And Your Friend (live) is also deliciously good. I never cared for his live sound in the early days, but from Alchemy on his bass tone is superb. On top of it all, he just seems like a really nice guy.
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For me John has made more meaning after DS.
I can hear the difference in the different drummers in the history of DS, and prefered Chris and Terry, but to be honest the bass no. Im simply not good enough to hear and value the differences in bass playing.
Of course he was important, but I mean musically, he has meant more after DS.
I think of his own music like "Toe The Line", "It´s A long Way Back" as very good music. Basic lyrics nothing remarkable there, but very good tunes. And his co-work with Pearle on "Beautiful You" for example stand out. Even though I read somewhere they are no longer on friendly terms of some reasons. Him and Pearle.
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He was okay. I enjoy his basslines on some songs, especially the earlier stuff, but on other songs I think I would have liked to hear something different. Overall I think his style fitted DS well.
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I think he had an important role in DS but not necessarily in musical terms.
He looked after business, especially pre Ed, and I suspect he had a calming influence on MK, even if MK ultimately had the final word in anything that happened.
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"Overall I think his style fitted DS well"
I agree. I love his bass on the song Communique, for example.
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His playing was very important in the early days. Listen to Sultans - the bass can be heard more clearly than the rhythm guitar, and is an essential part of the groove.
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Desperado with Six Blade Knife playing is a highlight.
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He was part of Dire Straits sound signature.
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he even played a bass solo in some Walk fo life versions during BIA tour (e.g "American tour 85" bootleg)
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he even played a bass solo in some Walk fo life versions during BIA tour (e.g "American tour 85" bootleg)
:o
Never knew!
I found one version here, though. But either John or Guy messes up and it becomes a trainwreck ;D
Edit: Someone in the comment section says this clip is fake. Either way it's pretty funny.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsYflYs5hcQ
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"Overall I think his style fitted DS well"
I agree. I love his bass on the song Communique, for example.
I totally agree here and indeed n this whole album more than any other. Once Upon A Time... has a great bass line too - in fact the bass line drives both these songs and yet you barely notice it unless you deliberately listen for it. His simple bass playing formed the foundations upon which every DS song was built.
Glenn Worf has always been too fussy and complex for my taste. Rather like children should be seen and not heard, so should the bass!
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"Once Upon A Time... has a great bass line too - in fact the bass line drives both these songs and yet you barely notice it unless you deliberately listen for it"
Exactly!
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Glenn Worf is doing a fantastic job for me.
He's way more skilled than John, the perfect counterpoint.
I did not appreciate John simple but solid style so much until the 2002 gigs.
But man, Glenn Worf is a beast on HFB.
I enjoy both.
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One song that has never sounded as good in the solo years is MFN. Another way to put it might be that it always sounded better with John on bass.
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I'd say that the difference is Glenn plays with proffesionality, John with passion.
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I'd say that the difference is Glenn plays with proffesionality, John with passion.
This is a good and apt commentary.
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Seems hard on John actually. Glenn is a virtuoso. But most rock bands do not have virtuoso bass players, and such may become too busy.
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I'd say that the difference is Glenn plays with proffesionality, John with passion.
I think this is a bit over the top personally. I think we all love John as his role as an "ever present" in DS, and his bass playing was fine, but what was passionate about it?!
He basically just stood there or waddled from side to side (gaining him the nick name "The Penguin" as per that stupid book :) )
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Because he was a bass player in a band because it was his passion, not his work, and that's the way he faced his role in the band.
Glenn is a professional and playing bass is how he earns his life. And he always was and is that, a professional bass player who started playing bass as a proffesion.
John was passionate about playing and having a band, wasn't searching for a career as a session player.
English is not my mother tongue but I thought and still think my point was clear, and not over the top of anything, expression that I don't know what it means but I guess what could mean.
OK, thanks for the clarification.
I guess I would counter that John initially was passionate about being a bass player but then it became his job.
I can't remember Glenn Worf's history but I guess this is the same for most professional musicians. The difference with John being that he struck it lucky with a successful band while Glenn got session work. I don't think that means one is more passionate or professional than the other.
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Let's say it in other way...
When I play drums, I do it with passion.
When any professional play drums, he does it proffesionality.
Passion is what I can do, lol
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Picjk Withers is a pro and don't tell me he was not playing with passion.
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Glenn is a hired gun, and on stage he was mostly in the background. John was a band member, and a founding member at that. He was Mark's close partner in the band and generally was a lot more energetic on stage, which may come across as being passionate. Awkward dance moves, though ;D I like John. Musically any half-decent bass player could have taken his place, but DS without him wouldn't be quite the same.
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In the same time we never experienced DS with another bassist than him so we are only guessing.
But Mark being Mark, if John had left I guess he would have opted for a professionnaly skilled bass player like he did for his brother' replacement on second guitar.
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Glenn is a professional and playing bass is how he earns his life. And he always was and is that, a professional bass player who started playing bass as a proffesion.
John was passionate about playing and having a band, wasn't searching for a career as a session player.
I see this terrible misrepresentation all the time. I'm sure Glenn plays bass because he's passionate about music.
If you don't happen to hook up with a couple of like minded people early on (like Mark and David) you have to freelance. that is the ONLY difference.
There is no less passion in being a musician at the highest level, even a freelancer. It's not about searching for a career, it's about being so passionate about music you want to do music every day.
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Something I think Mark was looking for in his solo band was multi-instrumentalists and Glenn had his "large instrument" on stage for some tunes. How else could they play Bonaparte, for example? Unfortunately it sounded like he was playing his own tunes at times. Just listen to him playing over the twiddly bits during Sultans - what on earth is he playing?!!! John was happy to take a back seat and do his job. To me that is professionalism.
For me the bass is a background instrument and something you shouldn't really hear until it's gone. John played to that rule, Glenn wanted to be heard.
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In the same time we never experienced DS with another bassist than him so we are only guessing.
But Mark being Mark, if John had left I guess he would have opted for a professionnaly skilled bass player like he did for his brother' replacement on second guitar.
Yes, when MK started the band, he only wanted to play his songs with whoever wanted to join him, which happened to be his brother, the flat mate of his brother, and a proffesional musician he knew that was crazy enough to join them, lol
When the band had success, every step changing members had auctions to choose them, quite a difference from their start!
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Something I think Mark was looking for in his solo band was multi-instrumentalists and Glenn had his "large instrument" on stage for some tunes. How else could they play Bonaparte, for example? Unfortunately it sounded like he was playing his own tunes at times. Just listen to him playing over the twiddly bits during Sultans - what on earth is he playing?!!! John was happy to take a back seat and do his job. To me that is professionalism.
For me the bass is a background instrument and something you shouldn't really hear until it's gone. John played to that rule, Glenn wanted to be heard.
I have no problem with Glenn approach of SOS.
It is to the least approved by Mark, and to the most asked by Mark
So I would say Mark wanted Glenn to be heard.
Mark is the absolute boss and not one single note is played without his go.
Then there is the way the fans receive it but that is another story.
Glenn is doing too much? Maybe but that is a sum of individual tastes.
I remember Manu Katché about why he changed his drumming approach on Heavy Fuel, and how Manu saw Mark in the control room going instantly nuts about that playing.
Action, reaction.
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By the way Chris, a friend of mine is a proffesional drummer, and he plays currently with both the new incarnation of "Presuntos Implicados" and also with "Soledad Gimenez" in his solo career!,
Great! Sole is lovely.
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Mark is the absolute boss and not one single note is played without his go.
^^ This ^^.
Although I agree, John was a very good fit, not sticking out too much and not trying to compete with Mark.
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I don' know the meaning of
^^ This ^^.
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I don' know the meaning of
^^ This ^^.
Chris is pointing out that he absolutely agrees with what he quoted from you and that you totally nailed it. :wave
LE
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Thank you ;D
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Arrows ^^ pointing up. :thumbsup
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Still, whether Mark agreed on every note or not (he could hardly ask John to play slap bass anyway), people might not like it.
In theory, Mark approved Jack's solo in Wild West End, but it seems very unfitting to me. My guess is that he said that Jack could do whatever he liked for those bars.
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It's not really about every note. I think the point is that if Mark doesn't like something, or feels it isn't working, he will let you know immediately.
So if the bass in some of his solo shows is 'too busy' then he would have told Glenn to empty it out a bit, or suggested Glenn check out John's playing on some songs.
It only takes one rehearsal or one show to hear feedback from Mark about what he wants to hear and what he doesn't.
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It only takes one rehearsal or one show to hear feedback from Mark about what he wants to hear and what he doesn't.
I'm not surprised ;D
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Anyway, fair enough, they are his songs and he is the one criticised if they don't sound right, or good enough.
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The way you describe Mark, he seems to have the ear of a classical conductor, paying attention to the tiniest details.
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Probably.
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The way you describe Mark, he seems to have the ear of a classical conductor, paying attention to the tiniest details.
That's a good way to put it. I tried to fill these shoes once and was conducting a small orchestra, and this was pretty much exactly my job. Be knowledgeable, make sure every musician is doing what he is supposed to be doing, and explain it so everybody understands what to do and how to do it. It's funny how most of the conductor's job is done in rehearsals, and on the show itself, the conductor is working almost exclusively as a human metronome as everything is polished already. It doesn't matter whether it's classical, rock, metal, or reggae. It's music, and its inner workings are all the same. It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.
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On this level of gig you are required to be 90% there on day one of rehearsals. The extra 10% gets worked on before the first show.
And yeah, the band has to sound perfect several rehearsals before the first show. Things go wrong in the heat of battle, so you have to start out being perfect before a single show is played.
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On this level of gig you are required to be 90% there on day one of rehearsals. The extra 10% gets worked on before the first show.
And yeah, the band has to sound perfect several rehearsals before the first show. Things go wrong in the heat of battle, so you have to start out being perfect before a single show is played.
And the band get even better after a few shows.
But...
Sometimes the early version of one song had something special that they seem to loose. Beautiful roughness.
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Repetition is the enemy when recording that's for sure.
But for the most part my experience has been that bands sound better after a few weeks on tour than right at the beginning.
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Chris,
I'm straying far from the original topic here, but I recall, and you may be aware, that Chad Cromwell ditched Mark in the middle of the Sailing to Philadelphia tour back in 2001, and Mark had to fill his seat on short notice. IIRC Guy sent Danny Cummings a recording of some shows and maybe the stuff they sent the band before the tour rehearsals, and Danny had just a few days to get it all down right. Would this be challenging for someone on your (or Danny's) level, stepping in on short notice in the middle of a tour?
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Chris,
I'm straying far from the original topic here, but I recall, and you may be aware, that Chad Cromwell ditched Mark in the middle of the Sailing to Philadelphia tour back in 2001, and Mark had to fill his seat on short notice. IIRC Guy sent Danny Cummings a recording of some shows and maybe the stuff they sent the band before the tour rehearsals, and Danny had just a few days to get it all down right. Would this be challenging for someone on your (or Danny's) level, stepping in on short notice in the middle of a tour?
no, it was during the Shangri-La tour, in 2005
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Chris,
I'm straying far from the original topic here, but I recall, and you may be aware, that Chad Cromwell ditched Mark in the middle of the Sailing to Philadelphia tour back in 2001, and Mark had to fill his seat on short notice. IIRC Guy sent Danny Cummings a recording of some shows and maybe the stuff they sent the band before the tour rehearsals, and Danny had just a few days to get it all down right. Would this be challenging for someone on your (or Danny's) level, stepping in on short notice in the middle of a tour?
no, it was during the Shangri-La tour, in 2005
Yes. Of course. Thanks for correcting that.
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Actually Danny had plenty of time as he got the tapes of the MK show to rehearse while they were still in Australia, probably a month in advance to learn the show, and before Danny joined them the tour played their last show in Christchurch on March 21st and after the band didn't play again until April 1st in Lisbon, so I'm sure they had time to rehearse together in the mentime and Danny got to that rehearsals with anything well learned during the previous week.
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Actually Danny had plenty of time as he got the tapes of the MK show to rehearse while they were still in Australia, probably a month in advance to learn the show, and before Danny joined them the tour played their last show in Christchurch on March 21st and after the band didn't play again until April 1st in Lisbon, so I'm sure they had time to rehearse together in the mentime and Danny got to that rehearsals with anything well learned during the previous week.
I guess I had the story completely wrong. :smack
Thanks for your answers
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On this level of gig you are required to be 90% there on day one of rehearsals. The extra 10% gets worked on before the first show.
And yeah, the band has to sound perfect several rehearsals before the first show. Things go wrong in the heat of battle, so you have to start out being perfect before a single show is played.
And the band get even better after a few shows.
But...
Sometimes the early version of one song had something special that they seem to loose. Beautiful roughness.
That's why bands nowadays rarely play new songs on stage because it will be filmed and uploaded on YouTube anyway, and treated as the legit setlist piece right away. While it captures the "beautiful roughness", nobody wants to put their mistakes on record forever, I guess. It feels like Mark enjoys more freedom when the event is more likely not to be recorded, experimenting, trying new songs and all. I'm glad the drummerless 2006 Boothbay Harbor gig got recorded for this reason.
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That's why bands nowadays rarely play new songs on stage because it will be filmed and uploaded on YouTube anyway, and treated as the legit setlist piece right away.
Not exactly. You obviously rehearse before the tour.
Both Calling Elvis and On Every Street were 'new' songs at the start of the tour, that went down well with the audience and became popular songs in the 91/92 set list.
One can't escape the fact that if you play a song 150 times, week in week out, it will sound even more polished than the first few times you played it.
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That's why bands nowadays rarely play new songs on stage because it will be filmed and uploaded on YouTube anyway, and treated as the legit setlist piece right away.
Not exactly. You obviously rehearse before the tour.
Both Calling Elvis and On Every Street were 'new' songs at the start of the tour, that went down well with the audience and became popular songs in the 91/92 set list.
One can't escape the fact that if you play a song 150 times, week in week out, it will sound even more polished than the first few times you played it.
What an honor, Chris Whitten.
Great drummer.
I saw you in Munich and twice in Milan with DS.
Phenomenon.
I remember the solos with Danny on Money for Nothing and Calling Elvis and an infernal rhythm on many songs.
Mythical.
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That's why bands nowadays rarely play new songs on stage because it will be filmed and uploaded on YouTube anyway, and treated as the legit setlist piece right away.
Not exactly. You obviously rehearse before the tour.
Both Calling Elvis and On Every Street were 'new' songs at the start of the tour, that went down well with the audience and became popular songs in the 91/92 set list.
One can't escape the fact that if you play a song 150 times, week in week out, it will sound even more polished than the first few times you played it.
How about those times when you rehearse something and they suddenly reappear after being off the setlist for some time?
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On this level of gig you are required to be 90% there on day one of rehearsals. The extra 10% gets worked on before the first show.
And yeah, the band has to sound perfect several rehearsals before the first show. Things go wrong in the heat of battle, so you have to start out being perfect before a single show is played.
And the band get even better after a few shows.
But...
Sometimes the early version of one song had something special that they seem to loose. Beautiful roughness.
That's why bands nowadays rarely play new songs on stage because it will be filmed and uploaded on YouTube anyway, and treated as the legit setlist piece right away. While it captures the "beautiful roughness", nobody wants to put their mistakes on record forever, I guess. It feels like Mark enjoys more freedom when the event is more likely not to be recorded, experimenting, trying new songs and all. I'm glad the drummerless 2006 Boothbay Harbor gig got recorded for this reason.
I know you write "rarely", but for the sake of the argument: if the band has a reputation for doing odd songs now and then and have that "anything can happen" aura to them, nobody cares about mistakes. And it gives them a chance to prove their value as entertainers and display proper showmanship. A fuckup that's turned into comedy is just funny. And I don't think Mark is the wrong guy to pull that off, he does have a good sense of humour AFAIK. Like, the t-shirt incident with the "you're a jerk" reaction.