A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: privinvest on May 10, 2024, 08:04:15 PM
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It never rains, isn't it? Especially the second half is as good s anything he did and "nobody" knows it. He doesn't play it in concerts (?) Any idea why is that?
Special mentions: Planet of the New Orleans
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It never rains, isn't it? Especially the second half is as good s anything he did and "nobody" knows it. He doesn't play it in concerts (?) Any idea why is that?
Special mentions: Planet of the New Orleans
Oh yes, definitely both! I think there is actually one obscure live version of "INR", or was it "Industrial disease"?
Another one that is totally underrated imho is "Hand in hand", on of my all-time favourites. Did he ever play that live at all?
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It never rains was performed during the '82 leg of the LOG tour and then dropped .
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It never rains, isn't it? Especially the second half is as good s anything he did and "nobody" knows it. He doesn't play it in concerts (?) Any idea why is that?
Special mentions: Planet of the New Orleans
Oh yes, definitely both! I think there is actually one obscure live version of "INR", or was it "Industrial disease"?
Another one that is totally underrated imho is "Hand in hand", on of my all-time favourites. Did he ever play that live at all?
Hand in Hand was never performed live, if I'm not mistaken.
It Never Rains is "good", but a two-faced song if there ever was one, starting off with rainbows and sunshine, and then taking you to hell. That may have been the idea, but it is somewhat jarring, and it lacks a hook.
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It Never Rains is "good", but a two-faced song if there ever was one, starting off with rainbows and sunshine, and then taking you to hell. That may have been the idea, but it is somewhat jarring, and it lacks a hook.
Both songs are maybe linked to Holly Vincent, or some other relationship that didn't work out.
INR imho is a lot about being used and exploited, some sort of reckoning, and lyric-wise it's pretty negative right from the beginning, despite the "happy" keyboard melody and the fairground imagery.
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It Never Rains is "good", but a two-faced song if there ever was one, starting off with rainbows and sunshine, and then taking you to hell. That may have been the idea, but it is somewhat jarring, and it lacks a hook.
Both songs are maybe linked to Holly Vincent, or some other relationship that didn't work out.
INR imho is a lot about being used and exploited, some sort of reckoning, and lyric-wise it's pretty negative right from the beginning, despite the "happy" keyboard melody and the fairground imagery.
You may be right about the lyrics.
They are some of his best vitriolic lyrics - accusing someone of screwing people on the way up because "you" thought you were never coming down. It's passionate enough for a failed relationship, but seems to about someone making it in (the music?) business.
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Yes, Holly was trying to make it with her band, trying to use MK's fame. So he would have been the one that was "screwed over".
And her career didn't work out the way it was planned either.
Intersting biography, if only half of it is true: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holly_Beth_Vincent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holly_Beth_Vincent).
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Yes, Holly was trying to make it with her band, trying to use MK's fame. So he would have been the one that was "screwed over".
And her career didn't work out the way it was planned either.
Intersting biography, if only half of it is true: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holly_Beth_Vincent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holly_Beth_Vincent).
Interesting! The music/girl connection makes sense. It had always seemed odd to me that the lyrics seemed sexual. ("Hands up smothering your screams", etc.) Pretty dark, this one.
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Les Boys. Great melody and lyrics. So many either misinterpret it or don't take it seriously because of the subject matter, but it's a really good song IMHO. He just doesn't bother with melodies like this now.
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I'll have to give it another listen again, then.
That song has been a skipper for me, just like Solid Rock, for as long as I can think.
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I've always had a problem with Les Boys. Maybe because the last DS/MK songs were important to me. It's a little different on this album:)
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DS: It never rains, for sure
MK: Metroland and All that I have in the world (had the latter been released on an EP last month we would be raving about it :))
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Les Boys. Great melody and lyrics. So many either misinterpret it or don't take it seriously because of the subject matter, but it's a really good song IMHO. He just doesn't bother with melodies like this now.
Agree 10000000%. Always baffled by the hate for it.
Whoop De Doo is an underrated classic for me. Just perfect.
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I've always thought "How Long" was quite underrated from a songwriting point of view, simple , country vibe , I like the hook.. I think it's unfortunately captured in the 90's production world though with the flutes and overall feel. But always thought it was a cool tune.
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I was thinking about this yesterday! How underrated It never rains and hand in hand are. I love them both and in the case of hand in hand I've always thought that it was eclipsed by Romeo and Juliet. Also single handed sailor may be considered as underrated? One of my favorites especially the outro solo is pure gold but the song was dropped early on the communique tour.
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Sailor was on my list, too! :-)
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Les Boys. Great melody and lyrics. So many either misinterpret it or don't take it seriously because of the subject matter, but it's a really good song IMHO. He just doesn't bother with melodies like this now.
LB - Not for me thankyou! I think MK was desperate for two album fillers what with 'Solid Rock' too. Melody wise, MK has produced far better than LB...
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How can be 'Solid Rock' a filler as it was already performed live before the album was recorded and remained on the setlist up to their last tour ?
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The way the album version was recorded indeed sounds like a filler. Live and also as demo version it sounded and was worked out much better. Solid Rock Live was always great but the album version was and still is a skipper for me. Same as Les Boys by the way because of the cliché overkill in the lyrics...
LE
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Making Movies is full of contrasts. How is this possible? It starts with an earthquake and ends with a song from a completely different world.
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Making Movies is full of contrasts. How is this possible? It starts with an earthquake and ends with a song from a completely different world.
Yes, it is full of contrasts, but that's somehow the case with almost every DS/MK album, I think. The most consistent ones are maybe DS, LOG, and later STP and KTGC.
Les Boys doesn't fit in with the whole record, both the music and the topic are very different. I guess he's always been experimenting with very different styles, going from one phase to the next, whether it's a waltz, a twist or a polka.
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I think Communique is also coherent.
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Yes, that's true. My bad. I forgot that album because I hardly ever listen to it. :-[
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Maybe we should define "underrated" first:
not known enough? by public at large? by the critics/media? radios? spotify?
not appreciated enough? not talked about enough? by hardcore fans? by the critics? fellow musicians?
and finally by MK himself by not playing in concerts, not including in compilations, not mentioning in interviews etc
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Hand in hand, no doubt. Never played live, but it’s a killer tune!
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How can be 'Solid Rock' a filler as it was already performed live before the album was recorded and remained on the setlist up to their last tour ?
Cos the album version of Solid Rock is a skipper for me - it sounds a jumbled mess, live versions however are pretty good.
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I was thinking about this yesterday! How underrated It never rains and hand in hand are. I love them both and in the case of hand in hand I've always thought that it was eclipsed by Romeo and Juliet. Also single handed sailor may be considered as underrated? One of my favorites especially the outro solo is pure gold but the song was dropped early on the communique tour.
Sailor was played until the end of the communqiue tour (Oslo 21th november 79) and played in1980 too
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I love the solid rock studio version, because :
- in the chorus, Mark sings "solid rock" higher, and I like it better than on live versions imho
- blended guitars parts all played by Mark sounds really nice to my ears
- guitar solo has a better melody than live versions imho
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The way the album version was recorded indeed sounds like a filler. Live and also as demo version it sounded and was worked out much better. Solid Rock Live was always great but the album version was and still is a skipper for me. Same as Les Boys by the way because of the cliché overkill in the lyrics...
LE
Which lyrics do you think are cliches in LB?
Now Hand in Hand, that's a cliche ridden cheesefest from the very start!
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Business Men in their Mercedes Benz, the dream of Jean Genet line..
It's not a homophobic song as such, but from a German point of view that whole Nazi stuff is not THAT amusing, thinking of Brits like Frankie Goes To Hollywood or Prince Harry turning up in SS uniforms as well. I get what he was trying to imply ("it's all in fun now") but I always thought that was a little too easy a cheap laugh. Also music wise it's more old Vienna than Munich. (The Third Man anyone?)
LE
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Business Men in their Mercedes Benz, the dream of Jean Genet line..
It's not a homophobic song as such, but from a German point of view that whole Nazi stuff is not THAT amusing, thinking of Brits like Frankie Goes To Hollywood or Prince Harry turning up in SS uniforms as well. I get what he was trying to imply ("it's all in fun now") but I always thought that was a little too easy a cheap laugh. Also music wise it's more old Vienna than Munich. (The Third Man anyone?)
LE
OK, I'm not aware of business men in Mercedes Benz on Jean Genet being cliches, can't remember them being referenced in anything else I've seen/heard/read, maybe it's a German thing?
For a long time in the UK there was a lot of stuff lampooning the Nazis, either in various comedy shows such as Dad's Army or Allo Allo, or for more "shock" value like the examples you gave. Also in the US I guess with stuff like The Producers. But that seems to have died off. Now that both the UK and the US have actual neo Nazis I guess it's not "funny" anymore.
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The Merc is probably a status symbol world-wide and therefore a cliché, although in Munich it would be a BMW, of course ;-)
And Jean Genet was something like a prophet for the 70s/80s gay movement.
I remember reading an interview where MK stressed the fact that it's not a homophobic song in any way, and that he felt kind of sorry for the guys who had to dress up like that to make a living. It's a bit like with Sultans, and absurd setting, and he sees the human side of it.
The caps probably just added to the S&M image they had to act. I'm not sure they were real in the first place, because owning any Nazi stuff (uniforms, symbols, books etc.) is actually a serious criminal offence in Germany, so you wouldn't see that in a night club.
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Maybe just a black officer's cap but without SS markings? Stuff like that seems to have been pretty prevalent in s&m type settings of the era (so I'm told!)
(https://www.digitalpharaoh.co.uk/cdn/shop/products/artworks-000028792919-1z0tg3-t500x500.jpg?v=1693742103)
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I have always like Les Boys, yes, it can be viewed as an unusual song in Mark's catalogue, but I like the melody and his guitar sound and playing, plus, it was really good live from what I have heard. I have mentioned before of my real fondness for Ticket To Heaven, I haven't found many other people who feel the same, but I just really like it, it's very well recorded and played, Mark plays some beautiful acoustic fills, and the strings arrangement from Sir George Martin is lovely. I also love Radio City Serenade, which for me really a great feeling of love for New York, I think Mark's vocals are really good too.
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Oh yeah, Ticket to Heaven is great (though it doesn't quite come close to "Jesus he knows me" ;-)), and Radio City is a masterpiece in every way!
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When it comes to you - not a lot to say, probably the only song I prefer on the record vs live.
How Long - really nice vibes, simple and to the point
Junkie Doll - This was probably one of the 3 or 4 climaxes of the 2001 shows.
You and Your friend - it's a bit of a BIA clone, but who cares. The OTN rendition is just cenit Dire Straits.
Kingdom of Gold - Probably the last big MK song.
Planet of new Orleans - Not being in any oficial recording pushed the song to "obscure fan favorite" status, and it can legitimately be there hand in hand with other big names such as TOL and I am not even kidding.
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Skateaway?
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Two most underrated songs ever in my opinion:
Planet of New Orleans and Planet of New Orleans live
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Fare Thee Well, Northumberland.
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Fare Thee Well, Northumberland.
Absolutely stunning! Also forerunner for 'Sweeter than the rain'
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"Nothing But Rain" too.
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Opinions will vary, but Les Boys seems to me the very definition of filler or "should have been a b-side". Making Movies is a marvelous record, and yet it has that ending... Not that I don't like it - I suppose I like it for what it is, a joke, but at the end of this masterpiece? That's what makes it feel filler to me.
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So far from the Clyde
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So far from the Clyde
Absolutely stunning, & yet haunting track. Up with the best I'd say....
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So far from the Clyde
Absolutely stunning, & yet haunting track. Up with the best I'd say....
So sad he never played this one live in concert.
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Another one that I think is underrated and that rarely gets spoken about is What Have I Got To Do, I adore the song, I love the tempo, and how free and relaxed Mark seems, some great guitar fills too.
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Oh yes, great song! :)
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Meh, I totally disagree :) I think it's just rightly rated, not in the top 250, sorry. My counter-proposal is "I see you". Do you think it gets enough love? But the other thing I want to say is, why is MK so hard on losers, man? I see you, My Bacon Roll, Coyote (?), Rudiger.. what's his problem with us losers? We have enough troubles our own already, thank you. Why kick the man on the ground? It's not the losers who fuck the world, btw, it's the winners, right? So if any of you have a contact with Sir Marky, please tell him to write songs mocking the winners. Hope this is not too political for the moderators. Or racist maybe
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So far from the Clyde
+1!
Fantastic song, as are most of them on Get Lucky
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So far from the Clyde
+1!
Fantastic song, as are most of them on Get Lucky
Great songwriting, great performance. But it's one of those songs that are way too emotional for me, like Piper, ODR, and even BIA live.
Makes me shudder to listen to the once-mighty ship being ripped apart by efficient Asian workers, who couldn't care less about her glorious past.
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Meh, I totally disagree :) I think it's just rightly rated, not in the top 250, sorry. My counter-proposal is "I see you". Do you think it gets enough love? But the other thing I want to say is, why is MK so hard on losers, man? I see you, My Bacon Roll, Coyote (?), Rudiger.. what's his problem with us losers? We have enough troubles our own already, thank you. Why kick the man on the ground? It's not the losers who fuck the world, btw, it's the winners, right? So if any of you have a contact with Sir Marky, please tell him to write songs mocking the winners. Hope this is not too political for the moderators. Or racist maybe
Interesting point! I love "Let's see you".
About the losers: he's usually gentle on the losers who try, the "goodies" who just don't make it somehow, those who haven't got lucky like he did. Coyote is one if those, I think, and we just know he'll get up and try again, no matter how many times he gets pulverised. And of course, Coyote never actually hurts anyone.
But the guy in Bacon Roll and Rudiger are different imho. They're losers, but there's nothing good about them.
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Meh, I totally disagree :) I think it's just rightly rated, not in the top 250, sorry. My counter-proposal is "I see you". Do you think it gets enough love? But the other thing I want to say is, why is MK so hard on losers, man? I see you, My Bacon Roll, Coyote (?), Rudiger.. what's his problem with us losers? We have enough troubles our own already, thank you. Why kick the man on the ground? It's not the losers who fuck the world, btw, it's the winners, right? So if any of you have a contact with Sir Marky, please tell him to write songs mocking the winners. Hope this is not too political for the moderators. Or racist maybe
Millionaire blues? I'm sure there are others, too.
I always thought Coyote was just a twist on the cartoon, tbh. Also, the My Bacon Roll guy is not a loser? Rudiger might be in some sense, but it's Rudigers own fault he is a creep. Only he could change that.
Also, "the man on the ground" can still be a nice guy if he wants to. I think that's the difference. Like, MFN is not aiming at anyone doing typical working class physical work, but racist scumbags who also happen to have no skill and drive for success whatsoever and whine about people WITH skill and a drive for success.
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River Towns
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River Towns
Good one! Another 'town' song I would add to the list is Donkey Town. Also One More Matinee is a bit overlooked. In a parallel universe I would love to hear River Towns in an early 2000's production. I think it would be even better. Still a favorite from the modern days of MK.
Metroland has always been a huge favourite that I rarely read about here. The melody strikes me hard.
From the DS days I would vote Hand in Hand. It's a shame that it was never played live. I think it could have been pulled off on the later tours pretty well.