A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Tol´83 on October 03, 2024, 10:15:54 AM
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I know that this topic has been discussed many times before but I think it is good to bring it up from time to time, especially for the possible new generations that read this forum.
I really don't understand how anyone who listens to the Dire Straits discography can doubt that Mark should be at least among the top five guitarists in history in any list (for me #1 without a doubt). I find it laughable the place they put him in. Especially, if you're a guitarist, you realize this. Earlier I was re-listening to Lady Writer and even without wanting to, I came to the same conclusion. I don't even choose to think about it. The complication, intensity, execution, imagination and cleanness of his phrasing is practically unmatched. I personally don't care where he is placed, but anyone who doesn't understand and read these lists believes what they say.
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I know "underrated" is an overused word, but Mark is an underrated guitar player, no doubt about it, and nobody can prove me otherwise. Not only did he manage to establish the sound that is truly recognisable from a single note, but he did it without any sophisticated equipment, and not only that, he used it in the context of hundreds of his songs/riffs. For the amount of creativity, beauty and fun he brought to the table in the guitar world, he deserves very high positions in whatever lists. It doesn't even matter if he stole this from J. J. Cale or this from Chet Atkins. And so what? Who cares? You try to steal it from Mark and I'll watch how far you'll go.
I think somebody said the guitar is an instrument that is the easiest to play badly and hardest to master. Once you realise how damn hard it is to play like Mark, everybody else pales in comparison. Another problem with these lists is that they lack a million players from genres other than "rock". There are monster jazz, country, folk, and metal players. I generally hate any lists and can't care less about them, but the underrated nature of Mark's music bothers me, that's why I do what I do.
Of course, all this "underrateness" is actually exactly what Mark wants. I'm 100% sure if he wanted it, had more exposure, and pursued this goal in the first place, he'd be regarded as one of the greats. The problem is he doesn't want it, and so naturally, he is either getting forgotten or underrated. Number 100 or something on the stupid list of the greatest guitar players is pretty fair in this light. I bet he'd be more happy not to be there at all.
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They are very easy to understand.
They are clickbait.
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They are very easy to understand.
They are clickbait.
LOL!!!
99% of all internet content is clickbait.
Subtitles like:
- I'll tell you who is the best...
- Eat overcoocked meat after midnight is good because..
- The worst drummer in my opinion is...
This kind o subs are on almost everything on YT.
It's the same about editorials on News Portals.
Since computers have been able to process the amount of data to generate deep statistcs, EVERYTHING went to median.
And people are innocent enought to ensure that the 'click bait' will be clicked.
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Don't get me started on clickbait... I HATE IT, as any other YouTuber:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znn3BNoU7tE
I tried to use the clickbait title a couple of times, and it generated 10x more clicks and views, everything else barely gets any views. Luckily for me, I don't care. But I could generate a lot of views and revenue should I opt for stupid titles and thumbnails.
To be honest, the more clickbaity the title and thumbnail are, the more likely I'll get past it. My #1 top pick for worst YT videos is somebody with a sad face and something like "I NEED TO TELL YOU THIS", and in the video itself, it's the stupidest, simplest excuse for doing something. Pathetic.
On the other hand, you still sometimes get videos like this in your feed, which are honest, straight to the point, and not clickbaity. This man died and this was his farewell message:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-gZuFcEu0E
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Lists of top 'anything' are highly subjective.
There are dozens of guitarists equal to Mark. Not saying Mark isn't amazing and worthy of every plaudit he gets....
But off the top of my head -
John McLaughlin
Jeff Beck
Pat Metheny
Paco Di Lucia
Andres Segovia
Jimi Hendrix
Eric Clapton
Lee Ritenour
Larry Carlton
Steve Lukather
Joe Pass
Ry Cooder
Frank Zappa
Buddy Guy
BB King
Stevie Ray Vaughan
Nile Rogers
And more...
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Lists of top 'anything' are highly subjective.
There are dozens of guitarists equal to Mark. Not saying Mark isn't amazing and worthy of every plaudit he gets....
But off the top of my head -
John McLaughlin
Jeff Beck
Pat Metheny
Paco Di Lucia
Andres Segovia
Jimi Hendrix
Eric Clapton
Lee Ritenour
Larry Carlton
Steve Lukather
Joe Pass
Ry Cooder
Frank Zappa
Buddy Guy
BB King
Stevie Ray Vaughan
Nile Rogers
And more...
Now we are talking.
So here is my:
Allan Holdsworth
John McLaughlin
Jeff Beck
BB King
Michael Landau
Wes Mongomery
Jimi Hendrix
Peter Green
Eric Clapton
Steve Lukather
Robben Ford
Mark Knopfler
David Gilmour
SRV
Derek Trucks
Tommy Emmanuel
Steve Morse
Except for Allan and John, there is no rank on my list. ;D
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On a quick note, my favorite 10:
MK
David Gilmour
Andy Latimer
Steve Rothery
Steve Hackett
Eric Clapton
Snowy White
J.J. Cale
Chet Atkins
Nick Barrett
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Yeah, after all, your list of favourites is highly dependent on your influences, whether you're a musician or not, and what kind of music you listen to if you are a musician. Musician's Musicians often tend to get low on lists as they are not as interesting to the general audience or their talent or impact may be not as obvious. In fact, Mark Knopfler himself might be a musician's musician as he barely appears in lists of best. However, WHEN ASKED, guitarists will say, "Oh, yes, this guy is the best!".
My Top 10 at the moment (I'm a classical guitar player)...
John Williams
Chet Atkins
Roland Dyens
Luiz Bonfá
Tommy Emmanuel
Django Reinhardt
BB King
Kazuhito Yamashita
Trey Hensley
Hank Marvin
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Once you realise how damn hard it is to play like Mark, everybody else pales in comparison.
For me, this is the crux of the matter.
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Yeah, after all, your list of favourites is highly dependent on your influences, whether you're a musician or not, and what kind of music you listen to if you are a musician. Musician's Musicians often tend to get low on lists as they are not as interesting to the general audience or their talent or impact may be not as obvious. In fact, Mark Knopfler himself might be a musician's musician as he barely appears in lists of best. However, WHEN ASKED, guitarists will say, "Oh, yes, this guy is the best!".
My Top 10 at the moment (I'm a classical guitar player)...
John Williams
Chet Atkins
Roland Dyens
Luiz Bonfá
Tommy Emmanuel
Django Reinhardt
BB King
Kazuhito Yamashita
Trey Hensley
Hank Marvin
Why I forgot about Hank B. Marvin. Thanks quizzaciously :)
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Once you realise how damn hard it is to play like Mark, everybody else pales in comparison.
For me, this is the crux of the matter.
Playing and singing like Mark Knopfler is difficult in the same way it's difficult to play and sing like Louis Armstrong... It's so difficult it's downright impossible and, if you ask me, pointless. I'm dying from cringe when I see people trying to sing like Louis Armstrong, and the same with Mark Knopfler. Likewise, nobody would place Louis on lists of best singers or trumpet players; he's just this unique, he transcends lists. And everybody loves him!
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But "What A Wonderful World" Mark sang beautifully ;)
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You’ve all forgotten to mention Lindsey Buckingham. A much overlooked guitarist with phenomenal technical skill. At times he is like three or four guitarists in one.
I agree with Dusty on the ‘best ever’ lists though. Absolute clickbait bollocks and of no use to anyone whatsoever. It’s all a matter of personal taste as to whichever guitarist you prefer over another.
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Don't get me started on clickbait... I HATE IT, as any other YouTuber:
Outside been a musician, I am a Data Engineer and since 2011 I work with several Data Science projects since then.
As you know, all this 'trends/clickbaits' are based simply on data analysis.
I'll tell you.
All Data Scientists, Engineers, IA specialysts will be the next public enemies.
Yes, we a guilty on many things. However, there is a lot of things that happens simply because people are stupid enought to not understand 'what to learn' from analytics
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ah yeah, my top 10 of fav players:
- MK, obviously
then the 10 :-)
- Richard Thompson
- Stephen Stills
- Nick Drake
- Brian May
- Dickey Betts
- Slash
- Nels Cline
- Graham Coxon
- Neil Young
- Gary Louris
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There is no such thing as a best ever player or list because you would need to have heard everyone of them to judge, and I doubt that happens! So, it's more a favourites list.
Mark Knopfler
Chet Atkins
Mike Oldfield
Hank Marvin
David Gilmour
Chris Rea
George Harrison
They are the 7 that are my favourites in terms of their whole career, but, other players have certain songs I like, for example Always with Me, Always with You by Joe Satriani, which is amazing.
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Personally, I don't care too much about these lists but do enjoy reading yours. The absence of Robbie McIntosh is astonishing!
LE
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Yes, it is. And strangely, Carlos Santana is missing, too! For me he's one of the best 3 of the present (MK, Gilmour, Santana). There are so many who are maybe even better technically, but for me it's the tone, the soul, the touch that make the difference.
I think, MK is often underrated / overlooked because a) he doesn't fit in any "box", with his unique technique and many different styles, and b) he's too "normal", scandal-free, normal-looking etc. I'm not sure whether Jimi, Keith and a few others would figure so prominently if they or their bands hadn't set guitars on fire, killed a chicken on stage, demolished a hotel room or whatever else rockstars do all day long ;-)
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These lists are, as said by Chris, completely subjective.
We are all making fun of it. (except for the Allan and John ranking :D)
There is a LOT of insanely great players. Some completely unknown for many.
To a listener perspective, be a great player is releated to play great songs. And 'great songs' are subjective.
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One more time. My favorite 12.
MK
David Gilmour
Andy Latimer
Steve Rothery
Steve Hackett
Eric Clapton
Snowy White
J.J. Cale
Chet Atkins
Nick Barrett
Gary Moore
Mirosław Gil
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I really liked those lists in my youth, now I do not care anymore.
But I always have much joy of reading them. Don't know why.
MK, until 2011 top of all
---------Top 12---------
Joe Bonamassa
Al diMeola
Gary Moore
Ry Cooder
Joe Satriani
Eric Gales
Ryan McGarvey
Eric Clapton
Jeff Healey
JD Simo
Stevie Ray Vaughn
Kenny Wayne Shepherd
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I really liked those lists in my youth, now I do not care anymore.
But I always have much joy of reading them. Don't know why.
MK, until 2011 top of all
---------Top 12---------
Joe Bonamassa
Al diMeola
Gary Moore
Ry Cooder
Joe Satriani
Eric Gales
Ryan McGarvey
Eric Clapton
Jeff Healey
JD Simo
Stevie Ray Vaughn
Kenny Wayne Shepherd
JD Simo is FANTASTIC.
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I really liked those lists in my youth, now I do not care anymore.
But I always have much joy of reading them. Don't know why.
MK, until 2011 top of all
---------Top 12---------
Joe Bonamassa
Al diMeola
Gary Moore
Ry Cooder
Joe Satriani
Eric Gales
Ryan McGarvey
Eric Clapton
Jeff Healey
JD Simo
Stevie Ray Vaughn
Kenny Wayne Shepherd
JD Simo is FANTASTIC.
Yeah. Absolutely.
Love all his albums. They are so fresh, rough and really cool.
Never heard something similar
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Yeah. Absolutely.
Love all his albums. They are so fresh, rough and really cool.
Never heard something similar
Yes. Mind Control is one of my favs.
I like these rough trios full of energy like JD's or Philip Sayce.
JD trio are more experimental and I like that!
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Exactly.
He is really experimental. I like that too.
I am really in for those Power Trio Bands.
Watched Sayce last may. Very cool too.
Sideman of Jeff Healey in the early 2000's
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Lists of top 'anything' are highly subjective.
There are dozens of guitarists equal to Mark. Not saying Mark isn't amazing and worthy of every plaudit he gets....
But off the top of my head -
John McLaughlin
Jeff Beck
Pat Metheny
Paco Di Lucia
Andres Segovia
Jimi Hendrix
Eric Clapton
Lee Ritenour
Larry Carlton
Steve Lukather
Joe Pass
Ry Cooder
Frank Zappa
Buddy Guy
BB King
Stevie Ray Vaughan
Nile Rogers
And more...
Hi Chris, it is a pleasure for me to be able to debate with you, of course with everyone in the forum, simply that Chris is part of my best memories of adolescence thanks to my video tape of “On the night”.
I'm glad you mention in your list Andrés Segovia and above all the great Paco de Lucía, a fellow countryman of mine, Andalusian like me. Maybe Paco is the only one I would put on the same level as Mark. Paco was unique and unrepeatable, a genius, a master, an innovator of flamenco, he dared to innovate ignoring the criticisms of the “purists” of flamenco. His “picados” are incomparable. So many things could be said about Paco. It was a pity to lose him so soon and in the way it happened.
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By the way, dozens of guitarists at Mark's level? In his prime? (I'll add the latter).
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Jeez...
Where is Eddie VH?
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Not saying Mark was the greatest guitarist ever, but he was certainly in the top 1.
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Not saying Mark was the greatest guitarist ever, but he was certainly in the top 1.
:lol
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Personally, I don't care too much about these lists but do enjoy reading yours. The absence of Robbie McIntosh is astonishing!
LE
Surely it’s only really guitar geeks who know who RM is?
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I'm not one but people who make those lists should be! ;)
LE
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But the list should really be called "flashiest guitarists"
There are so many excellent players out there who for one reason or another have chosen not to pursue individual fame
and perhaps that's why they are not on the list.
The first two I can think of are Richard Bennett & Davey Johnstone (Elton John's guitarist).