A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: onceupon84 on January 17, 2025, 11:08:49 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIT0t6bBTcw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIT0t6bBTcw)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lTeMLnSoLg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lTeMLnSoLg)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEHvKfXAxB0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEHvKfXAxB0)
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Thanks - interesting source of this video.
"Where are the tapes?"
Maybe here is a starting point
https://reelinintheyears.com/database-search/?stage=show_results
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Thanks - interesting source of this video.
"Where are the tapes?"
Maybe here is a starting point
https://reelinintheyears.com/database-search/?stage=show_results
It's here. Obviously, EL and PI are included on the same track.
Only 3 tracks + PI end from News where on the original broadcast (and a little bit from PB on final credits!).
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Uhh what is this? Mark’s tone is so unusually awful. The ending solo is kinda meh and sounds like he’s playing pizzicato violin.. honestly one of the worst ToL’s Ive heard
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Uhh what is this? Mark’s tone is so unusually awful. The ending solo is kinda meh and sounds like he’s playing pizzicato violin.. honestly one of the worst ToL’s Ive heard
Fully agree. Mark being tanked, great musical ambitions but all very bad executed, typical for this era.
LE
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Uhh what is this? Mark’s tone is so unusually awful. The ending solo is kinda meh and sounds like he’s playing pizzicato violin.. honestly one of the worst ToL’s Ive heard
Fully agree. Mark being tanked, great musical ambitions but all very bad executed, typical for this era.
LE
Yeah, the tone is not something to write home about, it sounds like a dry track or something, I'm not exactly sure it's the faithful representation of a live show and was meant to be heard this way. Maybe some remixing and processing could bring some life out of it. A couple of mistakes here and there, but not that bad, actually.
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Uhh what is this? Mark’s tone is so unusually awful. The ending solo is kinda meh and sounds like he’s playing pizzicato violin.. honestly one of the worst ToL’s Ive heard
Fully agree. Mark being tanked, great musical ambitions but all very bad executed, typical for this era.
LE
Yeah, the tone is not something to write home about, it sounds like a dry track or something, I'm not exactly sure it's the faithful representation of a live show and was meant to be heard this way. Maybe some remixing and processing could bring some life out of it. A couple of mistakes here and there, but not that bad, actually.
Sounds like it was recorded directly from a DI. Re amping would fix it, if only we had the multitracks ;-)
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For TV and radio was it the standard to use multitracks ?
We know that it was used in some case, such as by the BBC but I fear that most of the material was actually live mixed down to a 2 tracks.
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For TV and radio was it the standard to use multitracks ?
We know that it was used in some case, such as by the BBC but I fear that most of the material was actually live mixed down to a 2 tracks.
No, that was expensive.
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Probably 2 track in this era. This recording and the Dortmund one of the same year are pretty ropey in mix, but guess the aim was to make DS sound good through equally bad tv speakers of that age.
I'm hopeful the 1985 Westwood 1 recordings which were destined for radio only were multitracked. I've found photos of a mobile recording facility they used for these shows. Basically a giant converted coach, equal if not bigger to the Rolling Stones mobile used for Alchemy and Wembley 85. Just ignore the "where are the tapes" bit for one minute.
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Uhh what is this? Mark’s tone is so unusually awful. The ending solo is kinda meh and sounds like he’s playing pizzicato violin.. honestly one of the worst ToL’s Ive heard
I would kill to hear this 'worst' TOL live ... I don't agree btw, sounds very nice to me.
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We should collect money and contact them ;D
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Probably 2 track in this era. This recording and the Dortmund one of the same year are pretty ropey in mix, but guess the aim was to make DS sound good through equally bad tv speakers of that age.
I'm hopeful the 1985 Westwood 1 recordings which were destined for radio only were multitracked. I've found photos of a mobile recording facility they used for these shows. Basically a giant converted coach, equal if not bigger to the Rolling Stones mobile used for Alchemy and Wembley 85. Just ignore the "where are the tapes" bit for one minute.
Just for information, if you listen to any bootleg from 1980, the tone is the same as Dortmund 80 and in 1981, the timbre is not much different from Werchter 1981, very thin and dry tone. (1980 has the worst tone of MK's guitar, in my opinion) In my opinion, this is because Mark was looking for the ideal timbre for his new guitars, Schecter, he was still using Musicman amps live in 80-81, this configuration generated this timbre of this tour. Mark only found the timbre he wanted for the Schecter live on the LOG tour 82-83, when he started using Mesa Boogie amps, where, the sound changes for the better on his guitar, it becomes much more imposing, in this sense, Alchemy was created at the right moment in DS's trajectory.
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But, apart from the guitar tone, I love the energy of the shows on this tour and Werchter 1981 is no different, a precious record.
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One curiosity...
Who is making this noise at 6:44 and 6:49? I always thought that he was Mark, but after seeing this new HD video, Mark is not making any noise, he is very concentrated on the guitar.
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Uhh what is this? Mark’s tone is so unusually awful. The ending solo is kinda meh and sounds like he’s playing pizzicato violin.. honestly one of the worst ToL’s Ive heard
Now that I've Googled "pizzicato violin" I absolutely agree! :thumbsup
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Ingo wrote an article about this and what may have caused the thin guitar tone
https://www.mk-guitar.com/2015/09/14/strange-guitar-sound-on-the-werchter-1981-recording-did-mark-mix-direct-out-and-microphone/
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Uhh what is this? Mark’s tone is so unusually awful. The ending solo is kinda meh and sounds like he’s playing pizzicato violin.. honestly one of the worst ToL’s Ive heard
I am almost certain that Mark's 80/81's tone that we hear came directly from the desk.
I mean, probably those Music Man amps came with a 'direct output' to connect directly on the desk and this "pure" signal went to the PA and, because of that, the tone is so thin and sustainless.
There is one bootleg. I think is Oslo 81 or 82 that the recorder have been placed near to the amp speakers. Because this concert have one of the "best" tones from that tour.
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another thing is that, like Ingo explained, Mark used super extra light strings at this time
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Uhh what is this? Mark’s tone is so unusually awful. The ending solo is kinda meh and sounds like he’s playing pizzicato violin.. honestly one of the worst ToL’s Ive heard
I am almost certain that Mark's 80/81's tone that we hear came directly from the desk.
I mean, probably those Music Man amps came with a 'direct output' to connect directly on the desk and this "pure" signal went to the PA and, because of that, the tone is so thin and sustainless.
There is one bootleg. I think is Oslo 81 or 82 that the recorder have been placed near to the amp speakers. Because this concert have one of the "best" tones from that tour.
Direct outputs sounded crappy in those days. Now you can get nice amp simulation very cheaply but they just didn't have that tech then.
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One curiosity...
Who is making this noise at 6:44 and 6:49? I always thought that he was Mark, but after seeing this new HD video, Mark is not making any noise, he is very concentrated on the guitar.
exactly what i was thinking!
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One curiosity...
Who is making this noise at 6:44 and 6:49? I always thought that he was Mark, but after seeing this new HD video, Mark is not making any noise, he is very concentrated on the guitar.
exactly what i was thinking!
I always thought it was someone from the audience too close to a mic...
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Uhh what is this? Mark’s tone is so unusually awful. The ending solo is kinda meh and sounds like he’s playing pizzicato violin.. honestly one of the worst ToL’s Ive heard
I am almost certain that Mark's 80/81's tone that we hear came directly from the desk.
I mean, probably those Music Man amps came with a 'direct output' to connect directly on the desk and this "pure" signal went to the PA and, because of that, the tone is so thin and sustainless.
There is one bootleg. I think is Oslo 81 or 82 that the recorder have been placed near to the amp speakers. Because this concert have one of the "best" tones from that tour.
Direct outputs sounded crappy in those days. Now you can get nice amp simulation very cheaply but they just didn't have that tech then.
The wireless systems too for guitar also didn't help. Mark's live sound in the 80s wasn't fantastic, that's for sure.
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One curiosity...
Who is making this noise at 6:44 and 6:49? I always thought that he was Mark, but after seeing this new HD video, Mark is not making any noise, he is very concentrated on the guitar.
exactly what i was thinking!
I've always wanted to know too, for me it's someone on some monitor where the recording was being transmitted, maybe via FM radio, by some mistake, it leaked. But what the hell is that buzzing sound, it sounds like a strange moan.😅
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another thing is that, like Ingo explained, Mark used super extra light strings at this time
The myth that light strings didn't produces good tone borned when SRV became famous and his 0.13/0.62 set of strings became "standard" for great tone.
Hendrix used 0.08 and the same applies to Yngwie, that uses 0.08 strings tuned down a half-step and has HUGE tone.
Heavy strings produces more overtones than light strings, with can be confuded as great tone.
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I don't think Yngwie is a good example, as his tone always sound sharp and shrill to me. But indeed lighter strings has no effect on fullness of tone, other players famously using 8's are Brian May and Jimmy Page for example. No one would say of those their tone didn't sound big or full!
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Billy Gibbons sounds great, he uses 7's!
Highly doubtful Mark was playing straight into the desk. I've had a few MusicMan amps including an HD130, they're quite "unforgiving." Almost Hi-Fi sounding (solid state preamps) compared to your typical Fender. Also, they don't have a direct out.
He probably needed more onstage volume, and used whatever loud/clean amps were available at the time.
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here is Billy G. doing some fine blues...
https://youtube.com/shorts/KTYc6G1BZGM?si=t4JuPLUuPi744SNC]https://youtube.com/shorts/KTYc6G1BZGM?si=t4JuPLUuPi744SNC]https://youtube.com/shorts/KTYc6G1BZGM?si=t4JuPLUuPi744SNC (https://youtube.com/shorts/KTYc6G1BZGM?si=t4JuPLUuPi744SNC)
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Billy Gibbons sounds great, he uses 7's!
Highly doubtful Mark was playing straight into the desk. I've had a few MusicMan amps including an HD130, they're quite "unforgiving." Almost Hi-Fi sounding (solid state preamps) compared to your typical Fender. Also, they don't have a direct out.
He probably needed more onstage volume, and used whatever loud/clean amps were available at the time.
Far as I know, Mark's Music Man HD120 are tube amps. Same as Clapton used on Just One Night (1979)
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Billy Gibbons sounds great, he uses 7's!
Highly doubtful Mark was playing straight into the desk. I've had a few MusicMan amps including an HD130, they're quite "unforgiving." Almost Hi-Fi sounding (solid state preamps) compared to your typical Fender. Also, they don't have a direct out.
He probably needed more onstage volume, and used whatever loud/clean amps were available at the time.
Far as I know, Mark's Music Man HD120 are tube amps. Same as Clapton used on Just One Night (1979)
I'm in no way an expert but I believe the first statement was correct, solid state pre amp, then tube/valve output stage.
Wasn't necessarily a new idea to have hybrids, the Fender Concert from circa 1965 used in the early DS days had a solid state rectifier for example. :)
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Some considerations about the sound of that time
Throughout the On Location tour, Mark's equipment was: two Music Man HD 130s, 2 x 12", 130 Watts, with Marshall 4 x 12" cabinets
A big change came on the LOG tour 82/83, when he started using: Mesa Boogie heads with Marshall 4 x 12" cabinets with Electro Voice speakers, we noticed the big difference in how Schecter sounds between the two tours 80/81 and 82/83, he found the ideal sound for Schecter through Mesa Boogie heads with Marshall 4 x 12, this is evident in the bootlegs, the tone of the guitars on Alchemy is much more defined and present than what is found on Dortmund 80 or Werchter 81, especially the 1980 shows. When Mark originally acquired a Schecter it had three original Schecter F500T pick ups, which later, in 1981, they were replaced by Seymour Duncan
Old (SSL1?) and later with Seymour Duncan Alnico Pros, this change was a quantum leap in the sound, it still has its distinct beauty in 81 with the presence of the two Music Man HD 130, 2 x 12", 130 Watts, with Marshall 4 x 12" cabinets, but, definitely, in 1982 things were on another level.
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The 1980-81 guitar tone is that one thing I will never understand. Surely, he can't have been happy with it? I love the energy, especially in 1980, but I wish the guitar had more punch and bite. Personally, I find it very strange, as the guitar sound on the previous tour was very good IMO. The keys were also a bit... "weird" in the sense that they sound a bit thin in 1980-81 - on some songs (like ToL - compare with later versions if you like).
I should add that Romeo in 1980 was excellent.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lTeMLnSoLg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lTeMLnSoLg)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEHvKfXAxB0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEHvKfXAxB0)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vGZ1Mxnj-U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vGZ1Mxnj-U)
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Some considerations about the sound of that time
Throughout the On Location tour, Mark's equipment was: two Music Man HD 130s, 2 x 12", 130 Watts, with Marshall 4 x 12" cabinets
A big change came on the LOG tour 82/83, when he started using: Mesa Boogie heads with Marshall 4 x 12" cabinets with Electro Voice speakers, we noticed the big difference in how Schecter sounds between the two tours 80/81 and 82/83, he found the ideal sound for Schecter through Mesa Boogie heads with Marshall 4 x 12, this is evident in the bootlegs, the tone of the guitars on Alchemy is much more defined and present than what is found on Dortmund 80 or Werchter 81, especially the 1980 shows. When Mark originally acquired a Schecter it had three original Schecter F500T pick ups, which later, in 1981, they were replaced by Seymour Duncan
Old (SSL1?) and later with Seymour Duncan Alnico Pros, this change was a quantum leap in the sound, it still has its distinct beauty in 81 with the presence of the two Music Man HD 130, 2 x 12", 130 Watts, with Marshall 4 x 12" cabinets, but, definitely, in 1982 things were on another level.
Surely it must be something related to the amps or the way things where wired during the OL tour, new wireless systems... because the dream machine schecter used in ToL and TR remained the same with his F500T pickups
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Some considerations about the sound of that time
Throughout the On Location tour, Mark's equipment was: two Music Man HD 130s, 2 x 12", 130 Watts, with Marshall 4 x 12" cabinets
A big change came on the LOG tour 82/83, when he started using: Mesa Boogie heads with Marshall 4 x 12" cabinets with Electro Voice speakers, we noticed the big difference in how Schecter sounds between the two tours 80/81 and 82/83, he found the ideal sound for Schecter through Mesa Boogie heads with Marshall 4 x 12, this is evident in the bootlegs, the tone of the guitars on Alchemy is much more defined and present than what is found on Dortmund 80 or Werchter 81, especially the 1980 shows. When Mark originally acquired a Schecter it had three original Schecter F500T pick ups, which later, in 1981, they were replaced by Seymour Duncan
Old (SSL1?) and later with Seymour Duncan Alnico Pros, this change was a quantum leap in the sound, it still has its distinct beauty in 81 with the presence of the two Music Man HD 130, 2 x 12", 130 Watts, with Marshall 4 x 12" cabinets, but, definitely, in 1982 things were on another level.
Surely it must be something related to the amps or the way things where wired during the OL tour, new wireless systems... because the dream machine schecter used in ToL and TR remained the same with his F500T pickups
It is clear to me that the reason is linked to the wireless Wi-Fi transmitters used on this tour, along with what I mentioned, the combination of Schecter and Musicman, and we have this result. Most likely, during the LOG tour, they acquired wireless Wi-Fi transmitters with better quality. It is curious that in September 1979 the band adopted this wireless equipment and it still worked very well with the Fenders and Musicman, although it made the sound thinner. The show at Rainbow 79 is a great example. Compare it with the sound of Rockpalast 79 or Chorus 78 when the band still used spiral cables. That creamy and warm tone is the sound I like most from MK's guitar, and this lasted until July 1979.
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Some considerations about the sound of that time
Throughout the On Location tour, Mark's equipment was: two Music Man HD 130s, 2 x 12", 130 Watts, with Marshall 4 x 12" cabinets
A big change came on the LOG tour 82/83, when he started using: Mesa Boogie heads with Marshall 4 x 12" cabinets with Electro Voice speakers, we noticed the big difference in how Schecter sounds between the two tours 80/81 and 82/83, he found the ideal sound for Schecter through Mesa Boogie heads with Marshall 4 x 12, this is evident in the bootlegs, the tone of the guitars on Alchemy is much more defined and present than what is found on Dortmund 80 or Werchter 81, especially the 1980 shows. When Mark originally acquired a Schecter it had three original Schecter F500T pick ups, which later, in 1981, they were replaced by Seymour Duncan
Old (SSL1?) and later with Seymour Duncan Alnico Pros, this change was a quantum leap in the sound, it still has its distinct beauty in 81 with the presence of the two Music Man HD 130, 2 x 12", 130 Watts, with Marshall 4 x 12" cabinets, but, definitely, in 1982 things were on another level.
Surely it must be something related to the amps or the way things where wired during the OL tour, new wireless systems... because the dream machine schecter used in ToL and TR remained the same with his F500T pickups
It is clear to me that the reason is linked to the wireless Wi-Fi transmitters used on this tour, along with what I mentioned, the combination of Schecter and Musicman, and we have this result. Most likely, during the LOG tour, they acquired wireless Wi-Fi transmitters with better quality. It is curious that in September 1979 the band adopted this wireless equipment and it still worked very well with the Fenders and Musicman, although it made the sound thinner. The show at Rainbow 79 is a great example. Compare it with the sound of Rockpalast 79 or Chorus 78 when the band still used spiral cables. That creamy and warm tone is the sound I like most from MK's guitar, and this lasted until July 1979.
I agree. I love the tone on Chorus 78
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And the tone on "live at the BBC" is so angry! :) the end solo of Lions is so much more powerful than Rainbow 79, and subsequent 80/81 versions, which I love for the change of rhythm of the song, but not for the end solo, going nowhere...
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And the tone on "live at the BBC" is so angry! :) the end solo of Lions is so much more powerful than Rainbow 79, and subsequent 80/81 versions, which I love for the change of rhythm of the song, but not for the end solo, going nowhere...
Yes, it's true, I love that BBC sound, it's accurate because it was used for a short period, between May and August of 78, they used Fender with Marshall cabinets, which resulted in that more aggressive tone. We can see that same set in the video for SOS and Wild West End, recorded on June 12, 78.
I love the Lions arrangement on the On Location tour 80/81, I love that atmosphere, but the versions with the original line-up have a unique mystique and are my favorites.
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Yeah, most find BBC quite primitive, but I love it, more agressive. Maybe the bass is too loud in the mix...
Six Blade Knife is so different, more energy, a good complement to the studio version.