A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Brunno Nunes on August 30, 2025, 02:46:17 AM
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Pick Whiters Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.
I'd like to propose an analysis of Pick Whiters' sound, drumming, and playing between their fourth band and when they became a quintet, taking the song "Sultans of Swing" as a starting point and object of study.
What are the differences in his playing style between the first lineup and the next step on the On Location tour, when the band had a new member: a keyboardist?
From what I've noticed, he's changed his drum kit and expanded it further. However, certain subtleties have fragmented a bit between 80 and 81, especially in 81. However, the unmistakable groove and swing were always there.
I'm not a drummer, nor an expert, but I can see that his playing has undergone a notable change. I like to focus on this, especially when playing songs from the first two albums, certainly due to the new dynamics of the arrangements for these songs. I'd like to know, technically, what changes occurred from one era to the next, what new developments did his drumming gain, what did it lose compared to the 78/79 sound? Who could develop these and other aspects within my proposal?
Tone is a special aspect of this topic, his live hi-hat and snare sound between 78 and 81.
I've left the Chorus TV version of "SOS" from 78 and 81 as a starting point, but, as the topic progresses, we can use other songs like "OUATITW," "DTTW," "Lions," "News," "WDYTG," etc.
SOS Chorus Tv 78
https://youtu.be/jJa4pPH81_k?si=xP_LKDonRYHKQKip (https://youtu.be/jJa4pPH81_k?si=xP_LKDonRYHKQKip)
SOS Paris 81
https://youtu.be/cHaSjHjhUtc?si=t7y2sWbePC2YpvDc (https://youtu.be/cHaSjHjhUtc?si=t7y2sWbePC2YpvDc)
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Zooming in a bit further:
Old Grey Whitle Test 78
https://youtu.be/95ywPJ_8hV4?si=sfugcrU0tgDOLFbC
Dortmund 80
https://youtu.be/aPg2LUrCQT8?si=2fbdrn0m8UfA066u
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One of the things I noticed is that on the On Location tour, he seems to use the hi-hat differently. To me, it's a departure from what he used to do in 78/79 for SOS. The snare drum sound also seems to have changed a lot.
Anyway... What is Pick's role like on the On Location tour and what was it like with the original lineup?
If anyone can elaborate, please let me know; they're welcome. :wave
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If anyone can elaborate, please let me know; they're welcome. :wave
This is a massive subject, but the huge elephant in the room is that no musician operates in a vacuum.
I am certain that a lot of changes in Pick's playing were as a result of requests (to put it politely) from 'above'.
In a way, everyone in the band is there to serve the songs and as such the songwriter wields a lot of power.
In the beginning bands are more of a democracy, but over time as the importance of certain people becomes more evident, that democracy breaks down. (Look at The Police, example Sting). In it's harshest analysis, Dire Straits would be nothing without Mark's songs and guitar playing. So quite early on he becomes the most powerful member of the band.
Pick has spoken in recent interviews about being asked to play harder and louder. This request came from Mark, but was backed by John. He probably tried to resist at first, but then thought he could accommodate the request and stay in the band.
Playing much harder definitely affects your technique, also the things you choose to play. In the end, Pick decided he had to leave the band, this was for various reasons, but one of them being required by Mark to play drums in a way that he (Pick) didn't want to play.
**So** if you want to discuss the way Pick's drumming changed over a couple of years, it might not just be about Pick, or his personal choices, but changes that were imposed on him.
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If anyone can elaborate, please let me know; they're welcome. :wave
This is a massive subject, but the huge elephant in the room is that no musician operates in a vacuum.
I am certain that a lot of changes in Pick's playing were as a result of requests (to put it politely) from 'above'.
In a way, everyone in the band is there to serve the songs and as such the songwriter wields a lot of power.
In the beginning bands are more of a democracy, but over time as the importance of certain people becomes more evident, that democracy breaks down. (Look at The Police, example Sting). In it's harshest analysis, Dire Straits would be nothing without Mark's songs and guitar playing. So quite early on he becomes the most powerful member of the band.
Pick has spoken in recent interviews about being asked to play harder and louder. This request came from Mark, but was backed by John. He probably tried to resist at first, but then thought he could accommodate the request and stay in the band.
Playing much harder definitely affects your technique, also the things you choose to play. In the end, Pick decided he had to leave the band, this was for various reasons, but one of them being required by Mark to play drums in a way that he (Pick) didn't want to play.
**So** if you want to discuss the way Pick's drumming changed over a couple of years, it might not just be about Pick, or his personal choices, but changes that were imposed on him.
Thanks for your participation and thoughts, Chris W.
Actually, I'd be interested in an analysis not focused on why he changed his approach. You were very punctual, and you certainly received instructions from above to play louder. Besides the band having a new configuration compared to the original quartet, now with keyboards, I'd be interested in knowing what's really going on with his approach to SOS in 78/79 and 80/81. What's changed? Also, the drum kit seems to have changed—a new tone, a new approach.
In other words, I'd like to know how things worked live on the drums in 78 and 81, taking the song "SOS" as a starting point (he went from approach X to approach Y, from 78 to 81).
I initially chose "SOS" since this song spans Dire Straits' entire trajectory: two tours with Pick, two with Terry, and one with you, Chris. Each era has its own distinct feel and approach.
I'm wanting to look at these songs a bit through the prism of the drums rather than the guitars, starting with SOS.
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I'd be interested in knowing what's really going on with his approach to SOS in 78/79 and 80/81. What's changed? Also, the drum kit seems to have changed—a new tone, a new approach.
As I said, we know from Pick himself that he was asked to play increasingly louder. That changes your tone and what you choose to play.
Early on Pick had a bubbly style, busy. By the early 80's he seemed to be playing straighter and simpler parts.
We don't know 'what changed', but from Pick's mouth and my own, we know that Mark decided how the drums should sound and (often) be played.
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For me that change of playing is easy to understand as the band went from a quartet where the guitars and his drums where the ones leading the song, to a bigger band with a different guitar player, a keyboard, and songs being extended a lot with many minutes of keyboard-basds instrumentation, logically that demanded other kind of drumming, that made Pick more and more uncomfortable and leaves the band. Then Terry replaced him and his drumming fitted better to the new DS style.
For me Pick is a genius.
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But more often it was said that Pick was fed up with long tours, which is why he left the band.
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The band had evolved and become something else than Pick and David had "signed up for". Mark, John and Ed wanted a new direction. A bigger sound, bigger stages, more commercial success. The band had gained momentum, or as Mark has said, they had got the ball and ran with it. This was their chance. Quiet jazz drumming and continuing as a little pub outfit were not part of the formula. It's easy to look back and think of Mark as a egotistical dictator, but as Chris mentioned, without Mark's songs and guitar, the band was nothing. It was a take it or leave it moment, so sacrifices had to be made. Professional and familiar. Had we been in Mark's shoes, I think most of us had done the same thing.
Sorry, what was the question again?
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Actually MK nor any other DS member wanted Pick to leave. So MK ego or ambition had nothing to do despite changing the musical direction of the band, MK wanted Pick to stay.
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Actually MK nor any other DS member wanted Pick to leave. So MK ego or ambition had nothing to do despite changing the musical direction of the band, MK wanted Pick to stay.
Yes, but Mark's ambitions were more important than his wish for Pick to stay. If not, Mark would have adjusted his ambitions/direction accordingly.
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But more often it was said that Pick was fed up with long tours, which is why he left the band.
He's actually said in multiple interviews he was asked to play harder and louder, felt uncomfortable doing it, which was one of about four reasons why he left the band.
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Yes, but Mark's ambitions were more important than his wish for Pick to stay.
I don't think Ed had anything to do with it.
Playing harder and louder is usually an insecurity thing. Until the Brothers In Arms album all of DS biggest hits were the songs Pick played on.
I NEVER thought Sultans Of Swing sounded right being played harder and louder.
Ditching Pick completely changed the sound and feel of the band. I think they recovered though.
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My favourite DS period was over two albums - Making Movies/Love Over Gold.
Funny thing is those songs on MM were far more epic sounding due to the added layer of Roy Bittan's Keys, the production of course and extra guitar layering (some of it down to Sid McGinnis) but most importantly it's the drum sound which makes the album. Apparently a lot of work was put in to producing the snare sound on Skateaway for example. I loved that sound. It was crucial for the track and it didn't sound dead in any way. Whilst I've heard Pick comment about that period in an interview i'm fairly sure the production techniques weren't what was putting him off the band. I think it was due to the live performances and the loudness which increased over time. As Chris alludes to. Also i've listened to an interview regarding Love Over Gold and how that wasn't exactly plain sailing. Drum progamming began to creep in, and although i've been shot down before for suggesting this, there are elements of LOG that are purely programmed drum tracks. The Dr Parkinson part in Industrial Disease for example. I've been informed that Telegraph Road on the whole was played by Pick when deep in debate about that sound/drum beats. I hope so, as that wasn't what I had interpreted from one of his interviews. Maybe I was wrong, maybe he played over a programmed beat, which is quite a prominent thing for industrial bands with that big beat / programmed style. 90's/00's band Filter for example brought in a drummer to drum over the programmed elements for Title Of Record. I'm sure that's a common thing. I've read this on numerous occasions. Chris will be able to fill us in more regarding that.
Pick's style was crucial for the first two albums, even the third. Listen to songs like Once Upon A Time... or Wild West End, even Down To The Waterline.... Making Movies however was for me the pinnacle. Expresso Love, Solid Rock, Tunnel Of Love, Skateaway. My word. And if he was solely in charge of the drumming on It Never Rains from LOG like I always thought he was, then fair play to him. Outstanding.
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Yes, but Mark's ambitions were more important than his wish for Pick to stay.
I don't think Ed had anything to do with it.
Yeah, Ed can and does speak for himself but in his Q&A he always made it clear that he didn't interfere with the music other than giving his opinions on potential singles etc
I don't remember John saying he wanted louder drums either.
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lasy night I was reading in Richard Koechli's book, and aorund the slow train coming period, I came I came across this information about Pick and keyboards :
(translated with Deepl)
Pick remembers that working with Barry Beckett and Tim Drummond really helped him improve his drumming. He's sure it was a turning point, because those recordings with Dylan set the stage for using keyboards on future Dire Straits albums. Scott M. Marshall quotes Pick Withers: “I wanted to introduce keyboards into Dire Straits, but John and David were hesitant.” Pick believes that this experience at Muscle Shoals Studio helped Mark make up his mind about keyboards “because he had been thinking about it too.”
it's strange because in the oldfield book, it's said that Pick found that keyboards took too much improtance in the band sound, and now it seems that he was behind this decision ? :think
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I don't remember John saying he wanted louder drums either.
It would have been in one of Pick's Youtube interviews, saying he was pressured to play louder and that was something he wasn't happy to do.
IME, John basically backs Mark almost all the time.
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It's difficult to comment on the technical changes without being a drummer, but from my perspective Pick moved from a jazz feel through to being confined to louder, straighter rock drumming, which he didn't like. To refresh my memory I turned to the Michael Oldfield book 'Dire Straits', published by Sidgewick and Jack on (if you don't have it then it is worth seeking out).
Here are two extracts on Pick which bookend the story, the first from when he joins the band, and the second about his departure:-
"In terms of experience, Pick Withers was worlds apart from the
other three, An early memory for him is seeing the Boys' Brigade
band marching down the street to the beat of a big bass drum. 'For
some reason I wanted to get that drum, 1 had to go through a lot ofred
tape - be in the Boys' Brigade for a year, then play the bugle for a
year. My great piece was playing "The Last Post" at camp. ThenI
had to wait for a vacancy and I finally got this drum. I used to drive
my parents mad.
At seventeen, he became a professional musician and joined a
band called the Primitives. For three years he kept the beat on tour
in Italy, playing a collection of R'n'B oldies and weak band originals.
On returning to England, there was a dizzying sequence of sessions
and a band called Spring, who recorded an album for RCA without
much commercial or critical success. The critics thought it was
pretentious, and in retrospect, it was.
He then moved to Dave Edmunds' Rockfield Studios in South
Wales, to a not particularly lucrative job as house drummer: 'You'd
have to ask for forty pence for fags.' However, it did give Pick an
opportunity to work with an impressively varied collection of artists,
among them Bert Jansch, Howard Werth, Michael Chapman and
Del Shannon
He met up with Mark at the house of a mutual friend, where, Mark
claims, 'He was busy starving to death.' When Pick came down to
Farrar House, the effect was immediately obvious to all. John says:
For me, as a bass player, to be playing with Pick Withers was
fantastic for a start. I'd never played with anybody as good as him.
I really felt very shy, initially, about playing. He used to play ina
folk club and he was very delicate - nowhere near how he ended
up, thrashing the kit, as he put it. A great player, then, and I think he
became a better player over the years, though he'd probably
dispute that. He certainly didn't like some of the aspects of
rock' n'roll, the fact that it had to be four to the bar. He didn't like to do
straightforward drumming too much".
And later...
"Ed says: 'We don't really know why Pick left. I think it's a
combination of reasons. It had been on the cards for a long time that
he was unhappy with touring; not the playing, but the time spent
away from home. During the making of Love Over Gold, Pick
conceived in his mind certain things that I don't think have much
foundation in fact- for instance, that drums no longer playedan
important part in Dire Straits. Another comment he made to me was
that: "If I can't play drums with Weather Report, Im going to give
up.'" Pick completed his work on the album and left the band on 23
June.
Mark says: 'He's in Wales with his baby and his wife and he wants
to learn vibes and piano. He said he wasn't happy with his drums.
Touring is tough. If we'd been eighteen when the first album started
going nuts all over the world, we'd probably be lucky to be alive
right now. I think it's only the fact that we had some semblance of
sanity early on that we managed to get through it more or less intact.
John agrees: 'One of the important things to remember is that
when the band became successful, neither Pick nor David could
handle it. Some people can, They take it for what it is, enjoy it and all
the rest of it. But David was never happy with it, although he would
love to be successful himself as a songwriter. Pick was the same. It's
something that comes from your upbringing - you prefer to be the
underdog, almost, rather than be on top."
Not sure I like John's angle really on this, maybe they didn't get on. Anyway Pick is a fabulous drummer.
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John says some bizarre things and that absolutely ranks up there. It's sad that he has to say something negative about Pick in order to explain him leaving.
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John says some bizarre things and that absolutely ranks up there. It's sad that he has to say something negative about Pick in order to explain him leaving.
Absolutely. What a stupid thing to say.
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https://youtu.be/t-omCFfltaU?si=SjZ4r6E8u_sZJing
The first two reasons given were the volume and the shift towards 'stadium rock' style songs.
He then talks about a whole 'raft of personal issues'.
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John says some bizarre things and that absolutely ranks up there. It's sad that he has to say something negative about Pick in order to explain him leaving.
Totally. I get the impression at the time this book was written, after the Love Over Gold tour there was some inflated 'last man standing' egos and where quotes about 'being dead if they were ten years younger when it started' and having to 'love all of it' originate from.
The point about upbringing just makes John sound like a bit of a pompous snob. But then this was the guy who had enough money to finance a demo, open is own record shop whilst an artist and fashioned his own bass guitar at his childhood boarding school. Pick came through a different route perhaps.