A Mark In Time
Exchange and Share => For Sale => Topic started by: mathijs1973 on December 05, 2009, 03:46:58 PM
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For Sale:
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mmm...is this an auction's site? ???
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mmm...is this an auction's site? ???
No, this is a FOR SALE section, I think the name it
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Editors have discussed this recently, but I can't remember if we decided to allow the sale of "silver" bootlegs or not.
Until somebody with a better memory comes along I'll remove the original post.
In any case, any items for sale on this site MUST clearly state an asking price.
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Editors have discussed this recently, but I can't remember if we decided to allow the sale of "silver" bootlegs or not.
Until somebody with a better memory comes along I'll remove the original post.
In any case, any items for sale on this site MUST clearly state an asking price.
As a collector item, any silver pressed bootleg must be allowed. You can get anything for free right now, so anybody willing to buy silver pressed bootleg is clearly because he is a collector.
About the asking price, I think that should remain private between the seller and the buyer, if you are not interested, why you want to know how much they are going to ask/pay for it?
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OK, a couple of points.
There is a very, very fine line here. What if somebody says they are selling silvers but it then turns out to be CDRs? Where does this site stand then? Do we want to be known as a site that allows the sale of bootlegs?
On the price thing it is just so that this doesn't turn into an auction site. The seller should state the price that they are looking for, if the buyer can negotiate a lower price then good for them.
How would you feel if some tout came on here selling front row tickets that they had gained through the presale "to the highest bidder"?
We want this site to be as free and open as possible, but at the same time we need to protect our members and the site itself. It's not easy but hopefully members can understand. :)
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Well, its true, there is a line here regarding pressed bootlegs or cd-r, we are guessing here that someone will want to lie when they say they are selling original bootlegs, and another one regarding the fact that it won
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Your understanding would be appreciated, remember, all the Editors are huge MK fans who collect this stuff too and we set up this site with the intention of having freedom, but this is a really difficult grey area. :-\
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Your understanding would be appreciated, remember, all the Editors are huge MK fans who collect this stuff too and we set up this site with the intention of having freedom, but this is a really difficult grey area. :-\
If I
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let'S make a difference here between bootleg sellers like that mark-knopfler-dvd's site that i passed on to Guy who was VERY interested and fans selling spare boots from one fan to another, that to me is a major difference.
and whenever some idiot feels like selling cd'rs as silvers, well then it is to the buyer to complain openly here and i will personally ban that user (if it was truly foul play...) and he will have sold his last cd on here anyways, coz all members will know they are in for cd'rs and not silvers...
just my 2cnts though
so i say allow the selling from one fan to another, and keep a close eye on it, and at the same time a price must be displayed on here, no matter what both parties decide to do afterwards.
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OK Pottel, but that contradicts what some of the other Editors said when we discussed this recently.
The Editors need to take a clear view on this and report back. :)
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I was one of the editors who raised this issue at the time. Since reading all responses I have softened my position some what, and think we can maybe allow fan to fan sales in the "For Sale" section Only. Maybe the seller should, besides posting the asking price (we don't want AMIT to become an auction site) have to post comprehensive scans to prove the validity of the item? ??? I can modify out Rules section if we all agree to something...
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mm, that prevents users without scanner from doing so...
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Most people have a digital camera?
In any case, it doesn't really matter, as a fraudster could get pics from the web or whatever.
The rules should just say that any "silvers" must be original factory pressed ones, but we should have a disclaimer stating that buyers should take care to ensure that what they are buying is genuine as AMIT accepts no responsibility for private sales carried out between members. :)
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As far as strict legality goes, it all seems pretty dodgy to me.
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I think it's pretty clear. Bootlegs and pressed silver bootlegs are both bootlegs. There are no rights paid to DS or MK so both are illegal to sell. So officially I think we should not allow.
But ... because it's history and it's a collectorsitem in my opinion we should allow it with some real clear conditions:
1. Only sale, no auction.
2. Price must be on the forum (if you negotiate a different price it's none of our business but price must be clear from the beginning).
3. Only member to member, only fans can be a member, no business allowed here.
4. If someone doesn't sell a real silver but sells CDR's or DVD's he will be banned and his/her name, address, e-mail, IP will be passed on to MK's management.
5. Only DS-silvers are allowed, no new material is allowed.
If the other editors think this is ok, maybe Shangri-La can edit the rules so it is clear to everyone (including the rule that someone's name etc will be passed on).
What do you all think?
All the best, Ingrid
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I think it`s a good idea Ingrid, but why don`t you just download the bootlegs in FLAC and put it on a CD.
You aren`t risking to doing something illegal and it`s a lot easier.
But that`s my look on this story.
L.
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I think it`s a good idea Ingrid, but why don`t you just download the bootlegs in FLAC and put it on a CD.
You aren`t risking to doing something illegal and it`s a lot easier.
But that`s my look on this story.
L.
That's what I want to do, but some people like to collect the silvers, whatever the rights and wrongs of them they ARE part of bootleg history and therefore collectible to some people. :-\
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I think it`s a good idea Ingrid, but why don`t you just download the bootlegs in FLAC and put it on a CD.
You aren`t risking to doing something illegal and it`s a lot easier.
But that`s my look on this story.
L.
That's what I want to do, but some people like to collect the silvers, whatever the rights and wrongs of them they ARE part of bootleg history and therefore collectible to some people. :-\
Yes, I`m afraid you are right.
I agree with those people who are saying that it`s part of the bootleg history.. But I think it`s not so nice to swap all the wishes from the artist to get that particular bootleg.
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Hi Lars, I also download a lot and burn it on CDR for my own use. I don't really collect silvers, but when I run into one and the price is reasonable I buy it. Most of my bootlegcollection is on an external harddisk. Some are burned on CD to play in my car.
At one site I am against selling silvers. But I also love them and buy them every now and then. In the discussion among the editors I first said not allowing it at all because of the rights that are not paid for. But because it's all older stuff from DS period, DS doesn't exist anymore and they are collectorsitems I think it's realistic to sell them, but only as collectorsitem with strong rules. Otherwise our community will be overwhelmed with people from all over the world who wants to make money. When that happens it's not our community anymore.
Maybe we should do a poll about this?
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Hello Ingrid,
You`re right on this one ;)
I think we ONLY CAN allow it if there is a very strong control on selling bootlegs in this community.
I love them too, I love everything that has something to do with MK haha.
But when it may come to a point when people are selling bootlegs just to make money and not to please a fan who wants to have that bootleg so badly, I say that we should stop it then, but it didn`t come to that point yet luckily.
All the best,
L.
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This is a real dilemma in some ways as we want AMIT to be World headquarters for MK/DS fans.
ie allowing all sorts of things you can
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Mark Knopfler himself never cared about bootlegs, because he always said that he asumes that people buying bootlegs already has all the official stuff.
But probably PCM and the record company will be another different story.
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You are right but you have to say with this that he doesn't care about bootlegs being shared for free. He never said he is ok with selling bootlegs.
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I recall reading that Mark (or Ed) didn't care because these recordings sounded horrible so it was not competing with official product.
But this is another story for a record company. They don't care that you already bought the entire Knopfler catalogue from them. What they care about is that you are buying now something and they won't see the colour of this money and if you did not have bought this bootleg you would probably have bought someone else legit record.
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You are right but you have to say with this that he doesn't care about bootlegs being shared for free. He never said he is ok with selling bootlegs.
He told that long ago, when sharing bootlegs for free wasn
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There was also a NHB show in about 97 (Leeds?) where he said "Sing up and you'll be on the bootleg" or something.
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Clapton is one of the artists that changed his mind about bootlegging.
At first he was against but one night he spotted someone recording and was up to tell the security until he though "maybe I am performing my best concert ever and there will be nobody else to keep it" so he let it go...
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You are right but you have to say with this that he doesn't care about bootlegs being shared for free. He never said he is ok with selling bootlegs.
He told that long ago, when sharing bootlegs for free wasn
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yeah, deside or manchester 85 or something...lol
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I'm very uncomfortable with selling bootlegs on this site, silvers or no. Once semi legal, now they are not. No matter what the history is and who has them and loves them, now it is not legal. I don't think it can get any clearer than that.
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Hi there,
being new to AMIT, i can't help thinking what i have missed, all this time. Collecting is so much different than listening to, and i sometimes wonder if i could ever listen to all the stocked CDs and Vinyl i have, (not only MK/DS) at least once before i die. Since the bootlegs, silvers are not that hard to record and create, the collectible factor has to do with the quantities manufactured and the demand from collectors. But is it the item or the actual recording that inflates the desire? Do you think that you will fulfill your desire with a silver or with a CDR of the same content? I don't know, maybe it is a philosophical issue, and a psychological one, as well, but i do believe that some things will change with the internet downloading. I am older generation fan, vinyl mostly, don't like downloading that much, but i tend to think that the music is a form of expression - art that can truly be appreciated even without the actual object containing it. The enhanced feeling when you hold a record of your favorite artist with a shiny cover and a touch of detail that can (sometimes)worth the money paid alone with the music as an extra bonus. Paying money to download feels like paying for thin air, but then again do you remember your childhood days, when all the music that made you dream came from a one - speaker radio? Fantastic times(i confess that i wouldn't like to go back there, except if the world could go back as well. Pure things...)
Todd Rundgren said that musicians should make money by playing live music. This is the only way to fight downloading and burning CDs. And anyway, unless the artist sell millions, he usually never sees a dime from the record company. It is playing live and selling merchandise. Of course this alone is not a reason to make copies of your music and spreading them around. But wouldn't it be nice to buy them cheaper, say 5