A Mark In Time
Previous Tours => 2012 Mark Knopfler & Bob Dylan Tour => Topic started by: jbaent on November 12, 2012, 02:02:29 PM
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#26:2012.11.12 Grand Rapids, MI, Van Andel Arena, USA
(http://traveltips.usatoday.com/DM-Resize/photos.demandstudios.com/238/121/fotolia_1679968_XS.jpg?w=560&h=560&keep_ratio=1)
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=830 (http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=830)
http://expectingrain.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73026 (http://expectingrain.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73026)
AMIT attendees:
diremark86
Setlist
Different from previous show in RED
Mark Knopfler
1.What It Is
2.Corned Beef City
3.Privateering
4.Yon Two Crows
5.I Used to Could
6.Song for Sonny Liston
7.Done With Bonaparte
8.Hill Farmer's Blues
9.Brothers in Arms
10.Marbletown
11.So Far Away
Bob Dylan
1. You Ain't Goin' Nowhere
2. It's All Over Now, Baby Blue (with Mark Knopfler on guitar)
3. Things Have Changed (with Mark Knopfler on guitar)
4. Tangled Up In Blue (with Mark Knopfler on guitar)
5. Rollin' And Tumblin' (with Mark Knopfler on guitar)
6. Visions Of Johanna
7. High Water (For Charley Patton)
8. Spirit On The Water
9. Highway 61 Revisited
10. Mississippi
11. Thunder On The Mountain
12. Ballad Of A Thin Man
13. Like A Rolling Stone
14. All Along The Watchtower
(encore)
15. Blowin' In The Wind
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Now that Bob and Mark have resumed their joint appearances of last year, I feel sad for those who went to earlier shows when they didn't play together. :( :(
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Now that Bob and Mark have resumed their joint appearances of last year, I feel sad for those who went to earlier shows when they didn't play together. :( :(
That is the lack of respect from Krusty we talked about in so many threads... He knows that he enjoys it, so why spend so many concerts without inviting him?
The lesson is... If MK and Krsuty do this again, never buy tickets for the firsts shows, wait until the last ones...
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Oh dear, not this question of "disrespect" again! I will ask you two questions. (1) When Mark has a support act, how much time does the support act get to play? 70-75 minutes? Not that I can recall! Generally, more like 30 minutes. (2) When does Mark have a support act of similar stature to himself? Not that I can recall on the shows I've attended.
As for the suggestion of which shows to attend, should the two tour together again, you simply cannot pre-judge what Dylan will do or not do. You may be right or you may be wrong but, if that's your future strategy, you could well be caught out out. After all, I fully expected to get to hear a smattering of songs from TEMPEST but, so far, there have only been two songs from the new album so far, each performed once only in over 25 concerts. It goes to show you never can tell.
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Someone I know who attended this show said that the sound was so bad in the arena that even Mark and band sounded like sludge. It'll be interesting to know if the recordings bear out this observation.
He also said he couldn't make out Mark's lyrics but pointed out that he is not all familiar with the songs and that someone who was familiar with them would have got a lot more from them than he did. He referred to Privateering and Sonny Liston.
He commented that he respected Mark for not playing his hits, unlike some of the drunks in the audience. However, he himself found Mark a low-key performer playing music you just sit back and listen to.
He said that it was unfair to compare the two bands because Mark's band is about musicianship, whereas Bob's band is just about following Bob. He thought that Mark complemented Bob really well, filling the spaces beautifully but noted that whoever was playing lead guitar (and that included Mark) would spend much of the time staring at Bob trying to work out where he was going next, musically speaking.
He also said that, while acknowledging the growls, Dylan worked hard to put the songs across, with quite a few interjections in the lyrics. For example, after "You thought they were all kidding you" in Like A Rolling Stone, he interjected, "But they weren't".
Just thought you might like to know.
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comment from over on ER:
My friend's father is a very far up in the chain of command for Dylan, though I don't feel comfortable precisely stating what he does for our grand leader. So I was approached at about 4:00 today to go to Grand Rapids with free backstage passes from him. Hell yeah, right?
We get there and we're given the grand tour. We're then shuffled into the buffet room, where I'm given free rein on some of the most delicious food that I've had in a while. Brussels sprouts, goat cheese, Corn Flake Tofu, Butternut Squash soup, and, (ESPECIALLY) the Banana Foster. I had at least thirds or fourths of everything, it was that good (coming from a guy around 130 lbs, to give you the picture).
At my table was Donnie Herron, who is a genuine guy. Very receptive to questions, stories, etc., Told us all about his grandchildren, and that him and Bob had just bought some vintage fishing lures in Minnesota. Great guy.
I also met Mark briefly (who's plane arrived very late), Stu (we talked about deserts), Barron (pretty cool), and Tony (very busy).
Show: Got seated in the soundboard area for Mark's seat. His set was very good, just under appreciated by a crowd clearly hungry for Bob. Donnie had indicated that Mark was his favorite opener since his time with Bob started, and I can kind of see why. A lot of great multi-instrumentalists who were clearly open to experimentation of the music. Though the setlist didn't change, the music was still very high quality. He was very jammy, which is something I actually appreciated. Privateering was the highlight from Mark.
Dylan: Okay, I snuck a peak from the set managers set list, so You Ain't Goin' Nowhere was not a surprise. But then the music hit, and it was a lot less intense then the other handful of times it's been used as a opener. Tony was A LOT lower in the mix than was normal, the tempo was slower, and it almost fit for the mood of the song. The same could ultimately said about Visions. Mississippi was a treat, a bit better than the first time I saw it in Toledo.
Highlight: Possibly Rollin' and Tumblin... there was a pretty good interplay between Mark's lead and Bob's piano.
Overall: pretty mediocre show. Better than the last show I went to (Toledo '11), but still not as good as Kalamazoo '08.
Sorry if none of this made sense... it's late. Hope you had a good time reading it as much as I enjoyed the concert!
nice to hear donnie say that!!
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And just to prove that you never can tell, Dylan tosses in a third song from TEMPEST.
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http://www.mlive.com/entertainment/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2012/11/review_bob_dylan_befuddles_fur.html
http://localspins.com/bob-dylan-gets-tangled-up-in-blue-behind-piano-in-puzzling-grand-rapids-show-review/
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In the posted reviews i can see that BIA and SFA was played but do we have a full setlist ::)
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Oh dear, not this question of "disrespect" again! I will ask you two questions. (1) When Mark has a support act, how much time does the support act get to play? 70-75 minutes? Not that I can recall! Generally, more like 30 minutes. (2) When does Mark have a support act of similar stature to himself? Not that I can recall on the shows I've attended.
This tours are supposed to be a double headed tour, MK and BD both have a reduced time, MK more than BD, but MK is not a support act.
A support act never ever affect the time the main act plays. Mk had support acts and its a plus, not the contrary.
But in a double headed tour, you reduce your set in order to fit. MK did, and BD too.
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By the way, the disrespect is with the fans that came to the first half of the tour, but Krusty decided they were not good enough to have him inviting MK to play in front of them.
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Oh, that's what Dylan "decided", is it? Please tell me what more you know about his inner thought processes.
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Oh, that's what Dylan "decided", is it? Please tell me what more you know about his inner thought processes.
mmmmmm, chiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiili
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A response that was warmer than "chilly", anyway.
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Oh dear, not this question of "disrespect" again! I will ask you two questions. (1) When Mark has a support act, how much time does the support act get to play? 70-75 minutes? Not that I can recall! Generally, more like 30 minutes. (2) When does Mark have a support act of similar stature to himself? Not that I can recall on the shows I've attended.
This tours are supposed to be a double headed tour, MK and BD both have a reduced time, MK more than BD, but MK is not a support act.
A support act never ever affect the time the main act plays. Mk had support acts and its a plus, not the contrary.
But in a double headed tour, you reduce your set in order to fit. MK did, and BD too.
I agreed with jbaent wholeheartedly. I felt short changed to some extents that I didn't get to see Mark play with BD 4 nights I attended. The show shouldn't have been about how Bob feels at what nights when he feels like inviting Mark to join him on stage. It's about being courteous to the fans and Mark also. JMHO.
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I have no doubt that you felt disappointed, sweet surrender, and I'm sorry about that but it is not a matter of manners, courtesy or respect. Contrary to what you say, I feel it is about how performer feels (in this case Bob and possibly Mark) and, in my view, so it should be.
I once saw Ornette Coleman at the Royal Albert Hall with Yoko Ono but what they performed was just not to my musical taste at all. I thought it absolutely terrible and felt very disappointed, as there was nothing I could find in what they performed that gave me any pleasure or postive response at all. You cannot imagine my disappointment, not to say a touch of resentment, as I'd splashed for two tickets and I was still a student at the time. However, at no point (then or since) did I feel short-changed or that I'd been "disrespected" by Coleman. He came to do what he wanted to do and he did it. That's all the audience have the right to expect (or require) of a performing artist. [I still have the concert programme book, so perhaps I'd get something on eBay for that. Who knows?]
I'd much rather have someone on-stage doing just what he or she wants to do and doing it just how they want to do it than someone doing something just because he or she thinks the audience will like it that way.
The only exception I can think of is some private show, paid for by a corporation or some rich individual, when the performer might be contracted to play particular songs as part of the agreed package.
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Interesting discussion. TWM has a point saying that it is always best for the show when artists do what they feel is right for the moment; however, it probably depends on how you look at the show itself. For example, Mark himself likes to refer to the show as a theatrical performance where there is only little room for improvisation and all the actors know their roles really well. To confirm this approach he rarely changes setlists and uses the same jokes each night, giving an impression of the well rehearsed stage play. This may be boring for get-a-lifers like us, but is fair for the average member of average audience coming to see one of the gigs of a tour. Now if you think about it this way, adding a surprise element on some nights i.e. MK joining BD (which by the way is a HUGE bonus for fans of both artists) is like adding another act to the play or another chapter to a book. Some audiences get to see / read it, some don't. That doesn't sound very fair not to say professional. I understand when concerts within the same tour change slightly, how they evolve in details but Mark joining Bob is a major change and a big highlight of the night, and it shouldn't be a privilege for only some audiences to witness it. Howgh.
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Could the explanation be something as simple as each of the artists wanting to get the ducks of their own personal shows in a row before expanding into a joint formation? (Sorry for the lame metaphor - it's migration time here! ;D)
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It's maybe not at the same level, but there was a similar fact with Hendrix's performances.
after the Monterey gig, most of people would come see to his concerts to see him playing guitar with teeth and so on ...
but he explained that sometimes he "felt" to do it, and sometimes not
Of course it was part of the show, but it was also due to his mood at the time.
I must admit that I don't know what to think about this BD/MK discussion. Both sides (twm or SS and Janet) got valid arguments IMHO
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MK: Hi Bob
BD: Hi Mark, what are you doing here?
MK: Bob, I'm touring with you
BD: Really? Since when?
MK: Since 13 concerts ago
BD: Really?
MK: Really
BD: Pick a number between 1 and 15
MK: Mmmm, 5?
BD: ok, tonight you play with me on song number 5
MK: Which song will be?
BD: We
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Interesting comment about plays in the theatre. There is a story and I may not recall exactly right but this is the essence.
A famous actor (I think it was Laurence Olivier) was in the middle of a longish run and, one evening, everything went really well, mainly because he had been stunningly good. The cast members were elated and gathered for a post-performance celebration. Soon, it was realised the actor wasn't there, so someone went looking and found him in his dressing room. Whilst everyone else was on a high, he looked a bit gloomy. Asked why, when everything had gone so well that evening, he replied (something like), "You don't understand. I don't know what did it". In other words, he would like to repeat that great performance but couldn't work out what he would have to do, specifically, to achieve it.
My point is two-fold. (1) Even with a well-rehearsed performnace, you can have good nights and you can have really, really good nights. (2) Performance in a live show can depend on so many different factors, some simply beyond our comprehension. It just comes together perfectly and that's the magic of live entertainment.
Getting back to the actor's story. Does it mean that the audience members who went all the other nights were short-changed or "disrespected" in some way? No, because, with a live performance, the dynamic will change each and every night. Now, I know that's not an exact match for the "Bob and Mark" situation but there are parallels.
Dylan, based on his shows over the last 25 years, does not seek simply to replicate a rehearsed show, night after night. Maybe, this is his nature - who knows? Rather, he seeks the "moment" and to re-present his songs in new ways. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it is admirable that he keeps on trying. Rather like the jazzmen of old, one might say, he seems anxious to avoid getting in a musical rut.
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Dylan, based on his shows over the last 25 years, does not seek simply to replicate a rehearsed show, night after night. Maybe, this is his nature - who knows? Rather, he seeks the "moment" and to re-present his songs in new ways. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it is admirable that he keeps on trying. Rather like the jazzmen of old, one might say, he seems anxious to avoid getting in a musical rut.
I respect him for that and wish Mark would change his show a little more than one song per night. Safe and steady, that's our Mark. ::)
In saying that, they are completely different performers and one could say that Mark changes his shows with improvisation during his solos in the same songs night after night.
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Yes, two great performers with two different appraoches to performance. A great combination, to my mind.
Perhaps they'll both learn something from one another.
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In saying that, they are completely different performers and one could say that Mark changes his shows with improvisation during his solos in the same songs night after night.
well not so much, but indeed much more than during the LOG tour for example, when Hal Lindes said "Mark played his lyrics solos, exactly the same way, night after night"
and if you're listen to sveral gigs from LOG tour, you won't hear too much difference.
He uses improvisation a little more now, but it's not an improvisation way like you could hear from guitarists like many others in rock-blues
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In saying that, they are completely different performers and one could say that Mark changes his shows with improvisation during his solos in the same songs night after night.
well not so much, but indeed much more than during the LOG tour for example, when Hal Lindes said "Mark played his lyrics solos, exactly the same way, night after night"
and if you're listen to sveral gigs from LOG tour, you won't hear too much difference.
He uses improvisation a little more now, but it's not an improvisation way like you could hear from guitarists like many others in rock-blues
Hmm..he always ends up going in the same direction but the bits in-between are always interesting! ;D
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Interesting discussion. TWM has a point saying that it is always best for the show when artists do what they feel is right for the moment; however, it probably depends on how you look at the show itself. For example, Mark himself likes to refer to the show as a theatrical performance where there is only little room for improvisation and all the actors know their roles really well. To confirm this approach he rarely changes setlists and uses the same jokes each night, giving an impression of the well rehearsed stage play. This may be boring for get-a-lifers like us, but is fair for the average member of average audience coming to see one of the gigs of a tour. Now if you think about it this way, adding a surprise element on some nights i.e. MK joining BD (which by the way is a HUGE bonus for fans of both artists) is like adding another act to the play or another chapter to a book. Some audiences get to see / read it, some don't. That doesn't sound very fair not to say professional. I understand when concerts within the same tour change slightly, how they evolve in details but Mark joining Bob is a major change and a big highlight of the night, and it shouldn't be a privilege for only some audiences to witness it. Howgh.
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That's exactly how I felt and kooba you enunciated it very well with the theatrical analogy. I have no gripes about how Mark , BD or any artists choose or improvise the songs they want to play to fit the mood of that one particualr night. As a matter of fact, I very much welcome it. This discussion to me seemed totally different. It shouldn't alll be about how BD wants it to be. There should be some levels of professionaI expectation for the audiences. It shouldn't be done in a haphazard manner. BD wants MK to join the stage whenever he feels like it. :thumbsdown Mark joins Bob on stage is a highlight of the show. I had people asked that question while standing in line 4 night, if the two of them would paly together. Some said they got misled from the poster. Thinking they would play together. Folks shelled out their hard enarned money and time to go to the concerts, it would be nice to get the same opportunity to expereince the moment MK and BD share the stage.
I wished that PC and MK would step up and said " Bob, we know this is your tour, but Mark being a legend of his own , we'd like how the setup to be. "either he shares the stage with you from the beginning of the tour, or not at all" ;D
I'm certain there's plenty of mutual economic benefits for both managements to set up a tour like this. But I sincerely hope that this would not evolve into anything more in future tours. I don't fancy the idea of seeing MK half the show. It didn't feel quite right afterwards. Then again I asked myself, is it better than not to see him at all? And the answer is " Yes" and "NO"
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So you pay to see two headliners and you see them. Nobody promised more than that. The Dylan invitations to MK can be regarded as a bonus to the lucky ones. Nothing more. And this is the definition of luck. If it was pre decided, it wouldn't worth as much, because it is the surprise element that does the trick. That said, I would, too, feel mad if I was the (unlucky?) viewer of the first gigs, with no BD and MK collaborations. But if you think carefully, after all, with all these songs played together, night after night, the real unique shows are going to be the first ones, that each man played only in his set. Now doesn't that make you feel better? :)
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So you pay to see two headliners and you see them. Nobody promised more than that.
Nobody promised more than that, but everybody expected more than that.
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So you pay to see two headliners and you see them. Nobody promised more than that.
Nobody promised more than that, but everybody expected more than that.
Since they spent the last part of their 2011 European Fall Tour playing between three and five songs together per night and apparently enjoying so much that Krusty invited to sing a duet with him at the last show, I
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So you pay to see two headliners and you see them. Nobody promised more than that.
Nobody promised more than that, but everybody expected more than that.
Since they spent the last part of their 2011 European Fall Tour playing between three and five songs together per night and apparently enjoying so much that Krusty invited to sing a duet with him at the last show, I
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Where is it written down that we have a right to see them shared the stage? Mark accepted the request. Nothing more. And before there was no request, prolly because, as someone here mentioned, they wanted to get their shows "well oiled"
But again, it is, in the end bob's tour, and he can, in his crazy little world, decide what to do whenever. I am convinced mark is not bothered in the slightest. And I also think this topic is not discussed between mark and the t of the band. I am also convinced bob and mark spend way more time then we'll ever find out
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Allright, sorry it taken so long to post anything. Trying to get my house ready for 25 people on Thanksgiving and just took a promotion. Ugh. Anywho, here is the setlist (going by memory, the order might be slightly off around the middle):
1.What It Is
2.Corned Beef City
3.Privateering
4.Yon Two Crows
5.I Used to Could
6.Song for Sonny Liston
7.Done With Bonaparte
8.Hill Farmer's Blues
9.Brothers in Arms
10.Marbletown
11.So Far Away
There have been some negative reviews of this show. Let me say this, the sound in the front row was unbelievably great. One of the best sounding Mark shows I have ever been to. Also, Mike posted on Guy's forum they seemed tired and rushed. I didn't really see that from my perspective, again, it was one of the better MK shows I have been to. It was great! To hear Mark fill the Van Andel with BIA is as close to Dire Straits as I will likely ever get. It brought tears to my eyes to hear the venue full of his guitar on that song. It echoed all around me. The sad part of the show was that the venue holds roughly 12,000 and around 4,500 tickets were sold :-/
~J
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Thank you diremark86 for this review. I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed the show. After reading the post from Mike on Guy's forum I felt a bit disconcerted, but pleased to hear it was OK afterall. :)