A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: dustyvalentino on November 17, 2015, 10:00:08 PM
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Soooo... Mark's solo career has seen him use lots of different guitars but one jas characterised his solo tone more than any other - his 1958 Les Paul Standard "burst". It was all over the Golden Heart album and tour and has been a regular fixture ever since.
Like many of you, I have seen Mark play this guitar lots of times live (in fact I think every time I have ever seen him) and it creates a wonderful tone. I bought my first Les Paul in 2001 chasing that sound and I have owned at least one ever since then.
The 1958, 1959 and 1960 Les Pauls are generally accepted as the most desirable and therefore most expensive guitars on the planet. I had always held up Mark's 58 as one of the greatest of this select breed.
Imagine my surprise then when I saw a post today on the Les Paul forum that revealed Mark's burst to be something of a mongrel! As per the photos below at one point it had:
A chunk hacked out of it and a weird switch attached.
Non original tuners.
A strange bridge pickup, possibly from a Guild guitar?
I know most people won't care but I was quite traumatised to discover my dream guitar had been messed about with so much. :)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/17/45b8992a46a8423c3b307db60fcbf7eb.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/17/554c20d09b73a0698d52053ffc6474e7.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/17/17624ca14a15d201ea32a8ed9d99ea8c.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/17/be2cb3a44e6f80855fdb1476e64f00b8.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/17/3e7987a23e76691d4010bd002fd8352c.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/17/89c29f82465e81187c31b5207b648763.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/17/e377abcde0e00e1806b23f0050d7f63d.jpg)
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Original sources. :)
http://burstserial.com/gallery/main.php?cmd=album&var1=1958%2F8+6811%2F&var2=2
http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?196134-Knopfler-burst-info&p=2668148#post2668148
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Noooo! I hate to see these things too. Rather like an A-listed building being given an unsympathetic extension I suppose!
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At least it's now restored. :) But I can't believe I never noticed the repair on the top before!
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Oh my gosh... this makes me love it EVEN MORE!!!
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Wow! I can't believe I never noticed the patch after seeing that guitar so many times. He must been able to get a fair bit knocked off the purchase price for that.
The original store sticker on the back of the head stock is from Twin City Music House, 359 Main St. Pawtucket, RI. It closed after a fire in 1971. But you can read more about the musician that owned the store and the history here (http://www.ripopmusic.org/musical-artists/musicians/bob-petteruti/). And here's an undated photo of the store with an LP for sale in the window. :)
(http://www.ripopmusic.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/TWIN-CITY-MUSIC-HOUSE-359-MAIN-ST-PAWTUCKET-1950s.jpg)
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Let's compare it to old cars. These traces are signs of being in use and abuse. Sometimes you are the windshield, sometimes you are the bug. We all get visible and invisible scars now and then.
As long as it sounds the ways it does, I don't care.
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This is a living guitar not a collectable item to die on a wall.
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This is a living guitar not a collectable item to die on a wall.
Nobody suggested otherwise. It's just like finding out the Mona Lisa was hacked up at one point and repaired. :)
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This is a living guitar not a collectable item to die on a wall.
Nobody suggested otherwise. It's just like finding out the Mona Lisa was hacked up at one point and repaired. :)
But this is exactly my point, that a guitar is not meant to be an art object but a tool for a musician, and is sometime broken and then repaired. You can't analogise this to Mona Lisa as for all art object is sufficient by itself. A guitar without a player to magnify it is nothing but a piece of crafted wood, metal and plastic .
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Well allow me to retort. :) To me, the 58-60 Les Pauls are indeed works of art. If we are being philosophical let me ask - if no one sees the Mona Lisa is it still a work of art?
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I was very surprised too! The restoration was good enough to fool us all though, good job! It's still my dream guitar ;D
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Guys... the sound is not anything less than amazing.
Shouldn't we embrace that fact that the LP, while it has seen better days, sounds absolutely gorgeous.
?
And any discussion about any alterations-hacking-reparation is rather insignificant?
(sorry if I am out of line... I always think people think like me...)
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Guys... the sound is not anything less than amazing.
Shouldn't we embrace that fact that the LP, while it has seen better days, sounds absolutely gorgeous.
?
And any discussion about any alterations-hacking-reparation is rather insignificant?
(sorry if I am out of line... I always think people think like me...)
He can make his '84 repro sound pretty good too as the "user" and it has a better history in itself as being used on the iconic BIA album. Perhaps he should have saved the '58 for the studio only and show the fans the BIA guitar on tour.
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Guys... the sound is not anything less than amazing.
Shouldn't we embrace that fact that the LP, while it has seen better days, sounds absolutely gorgeous.
?
And any discussion about any alterations-hacking-reparation is rather insignificant?
(sorry if I am out of line... I always think people think like me...)
For people who aren't interested in guitars then it's probably insignificant. I find it significant.
I find the drool section insignificant. Different strokes and all that. :)
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Guys... the sound is not anything less than amazing.
Shouldn't we embrace that fact that the LP, while it has seen better days, sounds absolutely gorgeous.
?
And any discussion about any alterations-hacking-reparation is rather insignificant?
(sorry if I am out of line... I always think people think like me...)
For people who aren't interested in guitars then it's probably insignificant. I find it significant.
I find the drool section insignificant. Different strokes and all that. :)
Maybe this should be in the drool section? ;)
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Guys... the sound is not anything less than amazing.
Shouldn't we embrace that fact that the LP, while it has seen better days, sounds absolutely gorgeous.
?
And any discussion about any alterations-hacking-reparation is rather insignificant?
(sorry if I am out of line... I always think people think like me...)
I don't think this has altered the opinions of this guitar for anyone of us? We were just talking about something that we found interesting. At the end of the day, nothing we ever do or say is significant ;) .
BTW, my main guitar is a 50's Gibson which has had some holes drilled in it and later restored (not as good as Mark's restoration). It sounds the best of my guitars, so it's my favorite.
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Guys... the sound is not anything less than amazing.
Shouldn't we embrace that fact that the LP, while it has seen better days, sounds absolutely gorgeous.
?
And any discussion about any alterations-hacking-reparation is rather insignificant?
(sorry if I am out of line... I always think people think like me...)
For people who aren't interested in guitars then it's probably insignificant. I find it significant.
I find the drool section insignificant. Different strokes and all that. :)
Sorry dusty! I just re-read my comment, and it didn't sound nice at all! :( But it wasn't meant the way it sounds! :-[
I find the discussion really interesting and definitely significant (and a great find about this amazing guitar!!). I wanted to say that the fact that the LP was hacked - and then repaired expertly(!) - does not bother me. (So when I read that people are upset that the LP is not valued the same in their eyes -- that is the discussion that I don't quite get. Sorry!)
Drool section? Definitely significant ;)
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Well allow me to retort. :) To me, the 58-60 Les Pauls are indeed works of art. If we are being philosophical let me ask - if no one sees the Mona Lisa is it still a work of art?
Well, in fact this is not philosophical at all! You just have to answer these series of questions and you will find the answer.
First of all, can we define what is consider to be a work of art?
Is the definition generally accepted?
If only one man thinks that something is a work of art, is that sufficient, to name it as such?
Do all people like the same works of art?
All in all, is the term "work of art" an honorary term or a term that reveals some function? (an new aesthetic proposition, an education method or an early guide to the labyrinths of art itself?)
Now the second part.
Can we consider something that was created and then destroyed to be a work of art?
Now, if a "work of art" does not influence at all the public, is it still a work of art?
And last but not least, how art works for each generation?
As for the guitar matter, I think that guitars are objects that a person spends many precious moments with. They are almost magical things, that turn the obscure and complicated inside world of a person into an audible equivalent that we all think we understand. As such they are closer to magic wands, rather than works of art. Now, the marketing strategy of the guitar makers, thought that strange shapes would probably help boost the sales. So the actaul shape of most guitars, could be considered a work of art. But then again, we have to agree on what is a "work of art".
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I take care of my guitars and agonise over every chip in the lacquer, but to many professional guitarists they are just a tool and are treated accordingly. Remember that the Les Paul was discontinued in 1961 as Gibson thought it was too old fashioned to compete with Fender products, and not reinstated until artists such as Clapton had made it "cool" again. In the 60's a 1958 or 59 Les Paul was "just another second hand guitar" and many were hacked about or modified. It's horrifying to think about it now, but at the time the Les Paul was not considered the icon that it is nowadays. If you want nightmares, I suggest you google "bad coconuts guitar" :smack
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Further revelations:
https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.php?threads/burst-pic-of-the-week-the-old-switcheroo.95644/page-2#post-2876593
Was previously owned and used by the guitarist in April Wine, a Canadian band, and he had EMGs in it!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Further revelations:
https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.php?threads/burst-pic-of-the-week-the-old-switcheroo.95644/page-2#post-2876593
Was previously owned and used by the guitarist in April Wine, a Canadian band, and he had EMGs in it!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Wow, that's interesting. You can really see it's the same guitar. So anyone out there looking for an MK strat, you can buy one of these beat-up ones and bring it back to its original state like MK or whoever it was did :lol Something tells me that Mark bought it after the repair, but I know nothing.
(http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/MK_guitars_lespaul58c.jpg)
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Further revelations:
https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.php?threads/burst-pic-of-the-week-the-old-switcheroo.95644/page-2#post-2876593 (https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.php?threads/burst-pic-of-the-week-the-old-switcheroo.95644/page-2#post-2876593)
Was previously owned and used by the guitarist in April Wine, a Canadian band, and he had EMGs in it!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Is that what the guy meant though? He said: "My #1 burst I used in April Wine had EMG pickups in it when I first bought it. luckily the original double whites were in the case pocket!"
As far as I understand, it was just a comment regarding bad modding practices back in the day.
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Further revelations:
https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.php?threads/burst-pic-of-the-week-the-old-switcheroo.95644/page-2#post-2876593 (https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.php?threads/burst-pic-of-the-week-the-old-switcheroo.95644/page-2#post-2876593)
Was previously owned and used by the guitarist in April Wine, a Canadian band, and he had EMGs in it!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Is that what the guy meant though? He said: "My #1 burst I used in April Wine had EMG pickups in it when I first bought it. luckily the original double whites were in the case pocket!"
As far as I understand, it was just a comment regarding bad modding practices back in the day.
Ah yes, I think you are correct :)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Further revelations:
https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.php?threads/burst-pic-of-the-week-the-old-switcheroo.95644/page-2#post-2876593 (https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.php?threads/burst-pic-of-the-week-the-old-switcheroo.95644/page-2#post-2876593)
Was previously owned and used by the guitarist in April Wine, a Canadian band, and he had EMGs in it!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Wow, that's interesting. You can really see it's the same guitar. So anyone out there looking for an MK strat, you can buy one of these beat-up ones and bring it back to its original state like MK or whoever it was did :lol Something tells me that Mark bought it after the repair, but I know nothing.
(http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/MK_guitars_lespaul58c.jpg)
A beat up, modified guitar that is properly repaired can indeed become a wonderful instrument, as is evident in the case of Mark's 58 LP.
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A beat up, modified guitar that is properly repaired can indeed become a wonderful instrument, as is evident in the case of Mark's 58 LP.
Yeah. Thanks for upping this topic, because I somehow missed this story. And my God, I'm mad that they told NOTHING about it when they were releasing a signature model, and Mark told nothing about it. Maybe they all think that's not that interesting, but I think that's tremendously interesting. I recently bought a Martin D-18 that was beaten to death, and at the end of her life, the guitar fell off a stand on a wall and was basically wasted. But I bought it, repaired it, and now it's not only playable again and sounds great, that's one of my favorite guitars. I just love guitars with stories to tell.
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Also, if they forgot to drill and patch a hole in the guitar then I'm basically not interested in the "aged 1958 Les Paul" at all anymore simply because it misses a huge part of its history. Also, if present MK Les Paul has a store sticker and signature one doesn't, that's also would be extremely stupid. I'm utterly disappointed Gibson said absolutely nothing at all about the history of the guitar, but they have the courtesy to set a price double of that of a regular Custom Shop Les Paul. I mean come-on...
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I fully agree. Gibson stuff is way overpriced. Fender is a lot more vintage correct nowadays than Gibson is. For example, the lacquer of Custom Shop Gibson Les Pauls is nothing like the original nitro. It feels a lot more plastic. The reason apparently is that spraying pure nitro requires a place that fulfills strict environmental norms. Fender has it, Gibson doesn't.
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I fully agree. Gibson stuff is way overpriced. Fender is a lot more vintage correct nowadays than Gibson is. For example, the lacquer of Custom Shop Gibson Les Pauls is nothing like the original nitro. It feels a lot more plastic. The reason apparently is that spraying pure nitro requires a place that fulfills strict environmental norms. Fender has it, Gibson doesn't.
I'm curious where Fender does it, because as far as I know, nitro is not allowed to spray anywhere in California. Suhr I believe sends guitars that are going to be sprayed with nitro to Arizona or New Mexico. Not surprising that that drives the prices up.
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Is the Fender nitro "real" these days? The MK strat certainly isn't.
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Is the Fender nitro "real" these days? The MK strat certainly isn't.
What do you mean by real though? "Fully"? I had a Highway One some years ago, and the neck was poly and the body had a poly undercoat and nitro top coat. The top coat was so thin it was a matter of months before it started chipping off ::)
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By the way, here around 5:50 you can really see the repaired bit on the top, something I would never ever notice without knowing the truth!
Also, the bridge pickup also looks kind of strange and not like the neck one. Looks like it's older or newer, but anyhow replaced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpYLxLAOJXI
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Is the Fender nitro "real" these days? The MK strat certainly isn't.
all the Custom Shop stuff is fully nitro. Ask one of their painters, Jay Nelson, directly via instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jncolor/?hl=en
The Knopfler is full nitro as well. See how the finish sinks into the wood nicely!
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Is the Fender nitro "real" these days? The MK strat certainly isn't.
all the Custom Shop stuff is fully nitro. Ask one of their painters, Jay Nelson, directly via instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jncolor/?hl=en
The Knopfler is full nitro as well. See how the finish sinks into the wood nicely!
And it drops out of the guitar, one would think that with the use, but some MK Fender signature guitars says that looks like it falls during the night by itself...
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Is the Fender nitro "real" these days? The MK strat certainly isn't.
all the Custom Shop stuff is fully nitro. Ask one of their painters, Jay Nelson, directly via instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jncolor/?hl=en
The Knopfler is full nitro as well. See how the finish sinks into the wood nicely!
My understanding is the MK is poly undercoat, nitro top coat as well.
It certainly chips easily and doesn’t age like proper 50s and 60s guitars do.
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The easy chipping is a problem of the Fender Flash Coat lacquering. This problem continued with the American Vintage Series 2013-2018.
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The easy chipping is a problem of the Fender Flash Coat lacquering. This problem continued with the American Vintage Series 2013-2018.
So not full nitro then?
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The flash coat is nitro. The way Fender applied it in the factory caused trouble.
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Here is an abuse that should be exposed. Hessy Guitars from UK sells a Knopfler Les Paul VOS for 19k Euro (!)
https://reverb.com/item/39095429-gibson-custom-shop-mark-knopfler-58-les-paul-standard-vos
These guitars went for about 6k last summer.
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It's not really an abuse. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy it.
The selling price is what it is worth.
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fair point, it's just pity fans can't get these guitars because collectors buy them up. This price certainly won't hold. He will get max 8-9k Euro for it, if he is lucky. Unless a buyer won't be able to discern the difference between the VOS, aged and aged&signed model
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Oh boy, that's not a fair price at all. What were they thinking? It's like I'd point in the sky and chose a random number for a price. The whole Gibson thing is so cringy I barely understand how Mark said OK to all this mess. No mention of the history of the guitar, as proved by this thread, too much flame in the wood from the pictures that I can see, I'm sure I'd find more flaws if I had the instrument, but I'll never have it because the pricing is awful. And resellers are absolutely insane, let's put 20 grand for a brand new guitar that was released 5 years ago just because it's rare. Amazing. I truly hate Mark's signature instruments policy.
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Oh boy, that's not a fair price at all. What were they thinking? It's like I'd point in the sky and chose a random number for a price. The whole Gibson thing is so cringy I barely understand how Mark said OK to all this mess. No mention of the history of the guitar, as proved by this thread, too much flame in the wood from the pictures that I can see, I'm sure I'd find more flaws if I had the instrument, but I'll never have it because the pricing is awful. And resellers are absolutely insane, let's put 20 grand for a brand new guitar that was released 5 years ago just because it's rare. Amazing. I truly hate Mark's signature instruments policy.
I very much agree and consider this an important conclusion and input for MK and his management.
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How can the pricing have anything to do with Mark and his management? That's all up to Gibson and later on the resellers, who are free to charge whatever they want, like it or not. (For 20k you can get a new custom-built Les Paul-style guitar built by the very best boutique luthiers.)
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Well MK knows what Gibson will charge for them initially.
When the strats came out MK said he hoped there would be a more affordable Mexican version. That never happened.
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Well MK knows what Gibson will charge for them initially.
When the strats came out MK said he hoped there would be a more affordable Mexican version. That never happened.
I'd kill to get a Mexican MK Strat, that would be awesome.
So the question is, for what Signature 1958 MK Les Paul will sell after 15 years of laying in the collector's vaults? A million dollars? :lol
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There’s still a question over what will happen in the future to instruments that are currently valuable.
Young people seem less interested in guitars these days.
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There’s still a question over what will happen in the future to instruments that are currently valuable.
Young people seem less interested in guitars these days.
https://routenote.com/blog/fenders-best-year-yet-shows-people-picking-up-instruments-more-than-ever-in-2020/
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There’s still a question over what will happen in the future to instruments that are currently valuable.
Young people seem less interested in guitars these days.
https://routenote.com/blog/fenders-best-year-yet-shows-people-picking-up-instruments-more-than-ever-in-2020/
I know, but people buying a guitar to learn in lockdown is not the same as shelling out 200 grand for a burst.
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There’s still a question over what will happen in the future to instruments that are currently valuable.
Young people seem less interested in guitars these days.
https://routenote.com/blog/fenders-best-year-yet-shows-people-picking-up-instruments-more-than-ever-in-2020/
I know, but people buying a guitar to learn in lockdown is not the same as shelling out 200 grand for a burst.
Tomorrow never knows... It's like Porsche Carrera GT, for a long time it was just another Porsche, but now it's like a $1M desirable supercar.
With guitars, yes, the interest seems to go down, but I have some friends in guitar stores and they say the interest is actually only raising up! I tend to look more optimistic at this. There are more and more people in the world, around 8 billion already, so things like guitars are never going to become extinct, the guitar will only become more and more popular.
Not so long ago Australian guitars Maton became available here in Russia, and I thought it would have mild success. But people buy Matons here like crazy, despite the fact that a lot of them priced like a reasonable used car.
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Guitars can be tools to play but they can also be objects of desire, design pieces, unfulfilled dreams. Pavel is very much right about the 8bn. The world middle class is constantly growing and while some markets have saturated, new ones are coming up.
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The guys at the LPF speculate about Clapton and MK's Special:
https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.php?threads/clapton-on-a-special.217152/
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The guys at the LPF speculate about Clapton and MK's Special:
https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.php?threads/clapton-on-a-special.217152/
wow indeed. exactly the same tone pot of the neck pickup.
it would be amazing if it was the same guitar !
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The guys at the LPF speculate about Clapton and MK's Special:
https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.php?threads/clapton-on-a-special.217152/
thanks Dusty for the info. Even if it's not the case, I dreamed of this connection between these two legends, and I wrote something :
https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/et-si-knopfler-et-clapton-avaient-joue-sur-la-meme-guitare/