A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: JF on May 27, 2016, 09:52:26 AM
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this morning I listened to the MFN comp in the car.
I love this version which is from 23/06/83.
Of course I prefer to listen to the version from the bootleg which is complete with the fantastic outro and the outstanding Mark's solo, responding to Mal Collins' sax
But the sound is of course better on the MFN comp, and what struck me this morning is that Hal is mixed on the left and Mark on the right.
I remember reading that Mark was very much involved in this comp, so I bet that he mixed himself the song.
So it's interesting to hear from his point of view : Hal was playing on his left, so he mixed him on the left, while of course Hal was on the right of the stage from the audience point of view
I don't remember the TR remix for now, will check when I listen to it this evening
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yes this is this one, but 2 mistakes on the YT title :
- this version is from 23 june 1983, not 22 july
- Alchemy is not 22 july, but 23 july (except for the ending on solid rock which si from 22)
as for the bootleg recording I always doubted if it was really audience....sometimes it sounds soundboard
I know that no soundboard from the LOG tour exists except the official Alchemy, but as the version on the MFN comp is labelled "june 83" on the CD booklet, I always wondered if a sdb recording could have surfaced as bootleg but with a "worse" song than the real thing
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Someone have the 23.06.83 recordingfor me? Or only the song portobello belle
The record that i have labeled as 23 june.. it´s a different version from the SBD and AUD mix of YT
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lZbTVw5JeGc
yes this is this one, but 2 mistakes on the YT title :
- this version is from 23 june 1983, not 22 july
- Alchemy is not 22 july, but 23 july (except for the ending on solid rock which si from 22)
as for the bootleg recording I always doubted if it was really audience....sometimes it sounds soundboard
I know that no soundboard from the LOG tour exists except the official Alchemy, but as the version on the MFN comp is labelled "june 83" on the CD booklet, I always wondered if a sdb recording could have surfaced as bootleg but with a "worse" song than the real thing
Many soundboard recordings was made in LOG tour, they had to have alternatives. As we know, 23/07 was the choice to become Alchemy.
I believe all this unused stuff is the Saint Graal for DS fans...
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On 23.06.1983 they played in Paris...
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Montandon, in which case you believe the show on 6/23/83 Paris, was shot and what might have been the Alchemy?
Another curious point, listening to Portobello Belle version of the MFN comp and compared to the version of the same song on the bootleg 23/06/83 Paris, one sees both are very similar, I would say 98% equal, the divergence MYSTERIOUS is that the bootleg 23/06/83 Paris, the only differences are in 4:17 (Irish Irish girl), 4:45 (blind man singing Irish), these points of Portobello Belle version of the MFN comp Knoplfer interprets differently when he sings, which would be that? Some kind of mixing?
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I think it would be easy for the MFN version to sound very similar apart from in minute details to any other on the tour. DS were so polished by this stage that any margin for error was very minor : in some ways this is why I find no desire really to listen to other bootlegs from this tour as Alchemy is such a good representation.
I would like to believe Portobello Belle was from Paris, alas I don't see it myself. In the Mike Oldfield book (or another source) Mark talks about "being given a whole bunch of tapes to listen to of the Hammersmith gigs but just going for the Saturday night, as this is always the best night" or something like that. So we know other gigs were recorded, but id imagine it was easier to use an outtake from Alchemy rather than start from scratch with another reel.
You also have to remember recording live back then was not a cheap thing. The Rolling Stones mobile probably cost a small fortune to hire and this would have limited the number of shows they could record. So in summary, I reckon Portobello Belle is just an out take from Alchemy , rebranded date wise for marketing on the MGM compilation.
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Montandon, in which case you believe the show on 6/23/83 Paris, was shot and what might have been the Alchemy?
Another curious point, listening to Portobello Belle version of the MFN comp and compared to the version of the same song on the bootleg 23/06/83 Paris, one sees both are very similar, I would say 98% equal, the divergence MYSTERIOUS is that the bootleg 23/06/83 Paris, the only differences are in 4:17 (Irish Irish girl), 4:45 (blind man singing Irish), these points of Portobello Belle version of the MFN comp Knoplfer interprets differently when he sings, which would be that? Some kind of mixing?
Yes, wildstraits, Paris could be the the Alchemy, but it was not the choice.
And you are right, Portobello from Paris is IDENTICAL the MFN version except for the parts you said. Bacause of this I am shure there was some edits in final version released in MfN comp.
We all know, Mark never play the same song in the same way twice... there is no doubt Portobello is from Paris.
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I fully agree, Montandon, I have no doubt that Portobello Belle version of the MFN comp is the same in Paris (23/06/1983), just like to know what have they done in points 4:17 (Irish Irish girl) 4:45 (blind man singing Irish) recording bootleg to put on MFN comp.
Will other shows LOG tour were filmed? Concerning the OES tour, they know that the band provided the filming of some shows, at least, of course, we know that the shows in Feyenoord Stadium, Rotterdam, Holland and Les Arenes, Nimes, France, MABOS in May 1992 were filmed. I do not understand how even today, with all available technology was not yet available the ALCHEMY in full, with industrial, LOG, Twistting and Portobello Belle ... Even the dvd On the Night could be released with a bonus, perhaps with Tunnel of Love Feyenoord Stadium, Rotterdam, Holland or Telegraph Road in Les Arenes, Nimes, France?
Anyway ... all of these releases are quite modest compared to other band releases and artists of the same size of the DS and MK.! :-\
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yes Portobello Belle from teh MFN comp is Paris 23/06/83 for sure, it's not from Alchemy night. I bet Mark did some edits, taking parts from another night because he didn't like the way he sung these words.
(On the TOL intro of this gig you can hear someone shouting "Assise !" (= sit down ! in french) in the audience, so yes this is Paris ;D )
In the same way, by remixing Twisting by the pool he chose to mix down his voice just before the solo, I suppose because he didn't like the way he shot out !
I find some strange things aboith this comp : Mark was very involved in this comp (I read in an itw), meaning He spent lot of time in choosing songs order, remixing, etc... but why did he choose these really bad radio edits from BIA and MFN ? and why WDYTYG was not labelled as "demo" on the booklet ?
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Very interesting these questions. It is interesting to note that the points 4:17 (Irish Irish girl) 4:45 (blind man singing Irish) recording bootleg to put on MFN comp in no bootleg 1983 he plays the way that contained the MFN comp, I believe he may have recorded these parts in 1988 when he produced this comp. And indeed, it is very curious the presence of WDYTYG demo and also do not specify in the liner notes that information.
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Yes, probably just rerecorded it in a studio. Alchemy wss almost unique in live albums of the time in that it was, to all intents and purposes, actually live.
Sent from my Tab2A7-20F using Tapatalk
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yes you are right most likely rerecorded in studio 88, my first idea of another night is not right
I agree about Alchemy, but again, why did he choose to edit the vocal intro in TOL ? just two lines he didn't like ? :hmm
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Just on another note with this recording, Who plays the solo at 6:51? Is it mark? and what guitar is it? I'm thinking he changed to the TOL strat later when he plays the next solo etc... quite a unique guitar sound, I really love that MK made a unique best of with MFN. The alternate version of WDYTYG (which in itself isn't one of their big hits) and portobello belle live version etc. Something quite special for the fans as opposed to the stock standard compilation albums (and the next 2 that came out)
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I think its Hal
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Yes it's Hal.
Mark starts soloing at 8:09 with the red schecter strat. he switchs to the sunburst strat during the sax bridge between end of PB and beginning of TOL
in 80-81 Hal's solo was awful, almost out of tune.
in 82-83, I find that his playing improved a lot and fits more with the band's sound.
like he says in the oldfield book : Before Dire Straits my style was to crank up the amp and that was all. Mark helped me to "smooth things" ("arrondir les angles" in french)
I agree that the MFN comp was great at the time because of this unreleased material, but he should have include more, for example the complete portobello belle, live stuff from BIA tour, B-sides like eastbound train or badges, etc...
and one of my holy grail is to listen one day to the entire communique demos, like this WDYTYG version.
in the Oldfield book, it's explained that the band recorded all songs in London during fall 79, and this version comes from these sessions, and Barry Beckett says :"the album is already done, we just have to do it again"
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Thanks for clearing that up! :)
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yes you are right most likely rerecorded in studio 88, my first idea of another night is not right
I agree about Alchemy, but again, why did he choose to edit the vocal intro in TOL ? just two lines he didn't like ? :hmm
Interesting...i was thinking they used some pieces from another concert. But for shure they could be record it in studio.
We all know that he did it on Private Investigation comp when he re-does all the Darling Pretty vocals...
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I was wondering if there is a remastered version of this compilation. sS all other DS records are available with remastered sound, I'd guess there may be some contractual issue.
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I'm not really fond of PB on the LOG tour and think the edit was really a necessity. The complete version may be fine when you are actually there, but listening at home it is a bit tedious. The thing doesn't get going until about 1:45 - 2:00 in, then the outro is a bit hit and miss. The Paris version (link this thread) is quite repetitive and doesn't have any real merit. In fact, Mark's playing is a little rough at the start of his solo but I don't think it would've been included at full-length anyway.
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Yes it's Hal.
Mark starts soloing at 8:09 with the red schecter strat. he switchs to the sunburst strat during the sax bridge between end of PB and beginning of TOL
and one of my holy grail is to listen one day to the entire communique demos, like this WDYTYG version.
in the Oldfield book, it's explained that the band recorded all songs in London during fall 79, and this version comes from these sessions, and Barry Beckett says :"the album is already done, we just have to do it again"
PB was a black Fender Strat, tuned to open G with a capo at 3rd. There was a thread about it here in the forum somewhere.
I also would love to listen to the other Communique demos one day, from all the stuff we know it was recorded this would be my number one wish, plus more of the Hope & Anchor gig (where Eastbound Train was recorded, it has such a great sound). You mean fall 78!
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I stand corrected : interesting to hear it is from Paris : there's a whole gig lurking in the archives then which could find release one day then. Not for now then.
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The record i have labeled as Paris 23/06/83 is completely different to the link of YT that really is Paris 23/06/83..
Can anyone share with me the real Paris 23/06/83?
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Does anyone have some gum?
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The record i have labeled as Paris 23/06/83 is completely different to the link of YT that really is Paris 23/06/83..
Can anyone share with me the real Paris 23/06/83?
http://tracker.knopflertk.net/torrents-details.php?id=1180
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You mean fall 78!
yes of course. what was I thinking about :smack
PB was a black Fender Strat, tuned to open G with a capo at 3rd. There was a thread about it here in the forum somewhere.
ah thanks for the info.
the only reference I had was you old page :)
http://ds.mk-guitar.com/songlist.htm (http://ds.mk-guitar.com/songlist.htm)
so it means that PB was played in open tuning in 82-83 ? if memory serves, the song was played on the national on the first leg of the tour and it didn't feature the long outro nor the link with TOL (e.g. gigs from december 82), and then he switched for eletric later (early 83 ?)
if we count that the song was playd also in open tunning in 80-81, in 91, and in studio, it means that the only time he palyed it in standard tunning was Barbarella's 78 and the second half of 79
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I'm not really fond of PB on the LOG tour and think the edit was really a necessity. The complete version may be fine when you are actually there, but listening at home it is a bit tedious. The thing doesn't get going until about 1:45 - 2:00 in, then the outro is a bit hit and miss. The Paris version (link this thread) is quite repetitive and doesn't have any real merit. In fact, Mark's playing is a little rough at the start of his solo but I don't think it would've been included at full-length anyway.
so different tastes ! :)
indeed the lick is repetitive, but the background growing (Hal's rhythm for example) makes a crescendo/tension/climax and I like it
I find the lick far more complexe than the sultans ending for example, and I far prefer the harmony with sax on this song than on sultans in 85 and 92
I also love the intro with mark explaining the musical ambiance from the west end
in the intro each instrument is introduced and joines in for the song, and in the outro each musician says "goodbye" by stopping to play after being introduced
almost each member has his moment : Tommy plays the leitmotiv irish line, Hal and Alan have a solo, the Sax is gorgeous, and the rhythmic section Terry-John changes from reggae-claypso-ballad-rock
and last but not least, if you listen to it in a row with TOL, it gives you an almost 30 min piece of amazing music, of course, all in my humble opinion :)
I find that this song version blends romantism and energy, ballad and lyrism, etheral guitar and slow pace, well can't find the words, but I like it :P
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Notice that i compared both versions (the portobello mfn compilation and the recording from Paris 23/06) and, in my opinion, are different recordings
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Notice that i compared both versions (the portobello mfn compilation and the recording from Paris 23/06) and, in my opinion, are different recordings
the only differences are small vocal edits that wildstraits pointed out
all the rest is 100% identical, with a different sound/mixing of course
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We all know that he did it on Private Investigation comp when he re-does all the Darling Pretty vocals...
maybe you're right but at I always thought that it was just a vocal outtake from the GH sessions
I dont' see why mark would have re-recorded the vocal part in 2005.
But he could have found in the recordings archives another vocal take that he prefered then
It happens sometimes. on the CSN comp "Carry on" from 91, there are several songs with just a different mixing, and suite judy blue eyes has all identical to the original version, except 2 lines sung by stills that are different : just a different take, but from 69, clearly not from 91.
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Between 1996 and 1999 Marks voice was very bad, probably because cigarettes...after this period, he quite smokes and his voice on Sailing to Philadelphia was clearly better, and even better on Ragpickers Dream. Thats the why I Believe he re-record the vocal for Darling Pretty in 2005. His voice in this re-recording is as smooth as Shangri-la.
We all know that he did it on Private Investigation comp when he re-does all the Darling Pretty vocals...
maybe you're right but at I always thought that it was just a vocal outtake from the GH sessions
I dont' see why mark would have re-recorded the vocal part in 2005.
But he could have found in the recordings archives another vocal take that he prefered then
It happens sometimes. on the CSN comp "Carry on" from 91, there are several songs with just a different mixing, and suite judy blue eyes has all identical to the original version, except 2 lines sung by stills that are different : just a different take, but from 69, clearly not from 91.
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To me it seems highly unlikely he re-recorded the vocals on DP. It's just seems another take from the 1995 sessions. Probably the same version as originally used on the Warner release for US market which differed from the international version in vocal take and mix (more pedal steel) I believe.
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MFN was remastered and released in 1996 as part of the remasters series. The probable reason for the cut down versions is that the prevailing format was still vinyl and on the vinyl edition the skipped TR altogether. Or maybe a marketing trick to persuade people to go back to the original versions. Although BiA vinyl and CD versions are quite different, with at least 5 songs on the vinyl edition being actually edits, compared to the CD version. (All side A, apart WOL, and probably BiA). I should say that I grew up with the vinyl version of BIA and although it sounded interesting to hear the extra minutes on the songs, I think that the edits were better (with the possible exception of SFA and YLT) , since they concentrated on the idea and had less repetition. That said, the Japanese version of MFN has Solid rock as well, which would have been better if the version included was the one on the Riding high soundtrack. And yes, WDYTYG sounded so different (and better) than the Communique ersion that I never believed it was a remaster- remixed version.
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I think that the edits were better (with the possible exception of SFA and YLT) , since they concentrated on the idea and had less repetition.
funny, because SFA CD version has probably the most repetitive outro in the whole DS/Mk career
I like the long version of MFN (more than 8 mn) because it has a lot of cool licks, changing from the main riff
I love the long version of Why Worry. the atmosphere and tone reminds me of smooching
And the YLT is very cool too. the first time I heard it (after listening the vynil version for some weeks) I thought that my cassette player had some speed issue ! :smack
so on the contrary I would say that all long versions are better with the exception of SFA imho :)
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YLT is one of those rare occasions where the album version is so much better than any live version on any tour. The tone and fills of Mark's guitar are among his best, providing some wonderful imagery of early morning NYC streets with garbage trucks, steaming manhole covers, yellow cabs, skyscrapers, Manhattan skyline etc. His vocal is good too, something he has struggled with on live renditions of this song.
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YLT is one of those rare occasions where the album version is so much better than any live version on any tour. The tone and fills of Mark's guitar are among his best, providing some wonderful imagery of early morning NYC streets with garbage trucks, steaming manhole covers, yellow cabs, skyscrapers, Manhattan skyline etc. His vocal is good too, something he has struggled with on live renditions of this song.
totally agree. but there are other songs that I prefer studio version over any tour :
Money For Nothing : he never managed to get THAT tone again
Solid rock : I like the way he sings it, and the guitar tone and playing
Lady writer : I never found a live version that I could call "perfect" like the studio one
Love over gold : I always missed the ourto on live versions
it never rains: maybe it's due to poor sound on the only few live versions we have, but it doesn't reach the studio version level imho
what I like in studio versions are sophisticaded arrangements with many guitar parts that can't be reproduced live, and also the tone that is not always as good on stage, but of course it's not a generality
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YLT is one of those rare occasions where the album version is so much better than any live version on any tour. The tone and fills of Mark's guitar are among his best, providing some wonderful imagery of early morning NYC streets with garbage trucks, steaming manhole covers, yellow cabs, skyscrapers, Manhattan skyline etc. His vocal is good too, something he has struggled with on live renditions of this song.
totally agree. but there are other songs that I prefer studio version over any tour :
Money For Nothing : he never managed to get THAT tone again
Solid rock : I like the way he sings it, and the guitar tone and playing
Lady writer : I never found a live version that I could call "perfect" like the studio one
Love over gold : I always missed the ourto on live versions
it never rains: maybe it's due to poor sound on the only few live versions we have, but it doesn't reach the studio version level imho
what I like in studio versions are sophisticaded arrangements with many guitar parts that can't be reproduced live, and also the tone that is not always as good on stage, but of course it's not a generality
I would agree with all songs you mentioned, perhaps Skateaway too. MFN is possibly worth sacrificing "that tone" for the outro solos on the live versions though!