A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: mschaap on February 09, 2017, 10:33:02 PM
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Several websites announce remasters of the first four Dire Straits albums on SACD and 45rpm 2LP by Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab. Great news! These guys really know what they're doing and really can make a difference In getting out the very best of a recording soundwise.
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Several websites announce remasters of the first four Dire Straits albums on SACD and 45rpm 2LP by Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab. Great news! These guys really know what they're doing and really can make a difference In getting out the very best of a recording soundwise.
Thank you for some good news! Hopefully we will see more of the news like this commemorating 40th anniversary of DS.
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That's good news. I have the Mofi hybrid SACD of BiA that came out a few years back. While I'm happy that hi-res formats like DSD exist, I'm not much of an advocate, particularly for older recordings like BiA that were recorded with primitive digital equipment. That said, the red book 16/44 section of the SACD is probably the best mastering of the album. It retains all of the dynamic range of the first CD release but at the same time sounds overall much better. Should be interesting to see what they do for the first four, although it will be difficult to best the SHM of the first album. We shall see...
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It would be stereo or 5.1 surround?
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It will be stereo, these are remasters not remixes.
Indeed hard to improve on the 2013 SHM-CDs of the self titled and LOG wich were flat transferred from UK master tapes. To my ears they are better than the 2010 SHM-SACDs. But for Communique and Making Movies I think there is still room for improvement, they were made from the Japanese national masters. The MOFI ones will all be mastered from the original master tapes and judging by what they did on BIA I am exited.
The vinyl remasters for Communique and Making Movies done by Warner in 2010 are very good, but ideally I whish for that quality in the best available digital format. So hopefully the MOFI SACDs will deliver just that or even better...
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If you don't have a SACD player, does it worth to buy them?
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I know many people will disagree, but once again:
Normal, vanilla Redbook CDs can be made to sound perfect. Early CDs sounded artificial because the mastering process was primitive, hence the false belief that CDs don't sound as warm than vinyl... Blame the mastering, not the medium ! Recent MK CDs mastered at British Glove sound amazing.
SA-CDs, aside for surround mastering when it exists, offer higher horizontal (192khz instead of 44.1) and vertical (24/48/96 bits instead of 16) resolution than CDs. There is strong scientific evidence that the human ear will not make the difference, everything else being equal of course (same master).
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Indeed hard to improve on the 2013 SHM-CDs of the self titled and LOG wich were flat transferred from UK master tapes. To my ears they are better than the 2010 SHM-SACDs. But for Communique and Making Movies I think there is still room for improvement, they were made from the Japanese national masters.
Communique was transferred from original master and released as Pt SHM-CD in 2014. Cat Nbr UICY-40084
Recent MK CDs mastered at British Glove sound amazing.
BG does not provide with any mastering. All latest CD mastered by Bob Ludwig.
SA-CDs, aside for surround mastering when it exists, offer higher horizontal (192khz instead of 44.1) and vertical (24/48/96 bits instead of 16) resolution than CDs.
Do you really understand what you have posted here?
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Indeed, the recording, mixing and mastering process are far more improtant than the resolution from 16 bit / 44.1khz upward. So the potential lies in de remastering and not so much in it being released as sacd / 45rpm 180gr vinyl. Therefore it depends on how well they are being remastered technically and the choices made on EQ and dynamics etc. That said, they were all done quite well in the first place, so they need to do a perfect job to make a clear positive difference. Let's just see how it works out.
About Communique, the 2014 SHM-CD is transferred from US master tapes (according to the booklet), not original master tapes and it has been debated on some audiophile forum that's not even true as digital spectral analysis revealed the exact same dynamic range, track lenghts etc as the SHM-SACD which was transferred from the Japan national master in 2010.
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Indeed hard to improve on the 2013 SHM-CDs of the self titled and LOG wich were flat transferred from UK master tapes. To my ears they are better than the 2010 SHM-SACDs. But for Communique and Making Movies I think there is still room for improvement, they were made from the Japanese national masters.
Communique was transferred from original master and released as Pt SHM-CD in 2014. Cat Nbr UICY-40084
Recent MK CDs mastered at British Glove sound amazing.
BG does not provide with any mastering. All latest CD mastered by Bob Ludwig.
SA-CDs, aside for surround mastering when it exists, offer higher horizontal (192khz instead of 44.1) and vertical (24/48/96 bits instead of 16) resolution than CDs.
Do you really understand what you have posted here?
Yes I do. What makes you think I wouldn't ?
As for BG mastering, I mean MK (not DS) albums that have been produced in BG..
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Indeed, the recording, mixing and mastering process are far more improtant than the resolution from 16 bit / 44.1khz upward. So the potential lies in de remastering and not so much in it being released as sacd / 45rpm 180gr vinyl. Therefore it depends on how well they are being remastered technically and the choices made on EQ and dynamics etc. That said, they were all done quite well in the first place, so they need to do a perfect job to make a clear positive difference. Let's just see how it works out.
100% agree !
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That moment when the only thing made a forum active again is the audiophile debate :lol :lol :lol
Mark, seriously, give us some news. Please.
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About Communique, the 2014 SHM-CD is transferred from US master tapes (according to the booklet), not original master tapes and it has been debated on some audiophile forum that's not even true as digital spectral analysis revealed the exact same dynamic range, track lenghts etc as the SHM-SACD which was transferred from the Japan national master in 2010.
According the to the booklet - "from US original master tapes". Original means original only. Isn't it?
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Yes I do.
I have bad news for you. You absolutely do not understand what you talk about. Sorry.
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Yes I do.
I have bad news for you. You absolutely do not understand what you talk about. Sorry.
Maybe it's better to post some arguments, facts, knowledge, etc. than just saying somebody is wrong. If you know better, please explain and make everybody learn something! ;)
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Maybe it's better to post some arguments, facts, knowledge, etc. than just saying somebody is wrong. If you know better, please explain and make everybody learn something! ;)
It's too enough to begin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Audio_CD , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital
I hope nobody banned by Google :-)
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Yes I do.
I have bad news for you. You absolutely do not understand what you talk about. Sorry.
Then please tell me what I said wrong instead of judging.
I just said that SA-CD provided so-called hi-res sound, with higher sampling rate or horizontal resolution (e.g. 192khz instead of 44.1) and higher bit depth or vertical resolution (i.e. 24 bits instead of 16) than normal Redbook CDs.
This was by no means a complete description of SA-CD (I didn't talk about DSD for instance) because it was not intended to be - just to tell my doubts about the usefulness of high-resolution audio. The DSD technology, which I am well aware of, don't worry, does not change the fact that we are talking about high-rez audio, just like DVD-A which uses PCM. You will tell me DSD is one-bit, and you'll be right, but at the end it's just high-rez audio. Besides, according to the Wikipedia article you quoted yourself, research conducted in 2007 proved with double blind testing that people could not make the difference with Redbook CDs - all things being equal of course. I am also well aware of this (excellent) research.
I don't like to praise myself but I have been a mathematician and a computer engineer for 20 years, so I don't take lectures on this tone.
I challenge you to find anything wrong in the simple facts I stated. Others on this forum perfectly understood what I meant.
Arrogance and lack of argumentation will lead you nowhere.
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I just said that SA-CD provided so-called hi-res sound, with higher sampling rate or horizontal resolution (e.g. 192khz instead of 44.1) and higher bit depth or vertical resolution (i.e. 24 bits instead of 16) than normal Redbook CDs.
Do not kidding me here. You said:
SA-CDs, aside for surround mastering when it exists, offer higher horizontal (192khz instead of 44.1) and vertical (24/48/96 bits instead of 16) resolution than CDs.
It's a nonsense.
I don't like to praise myself but I have been a mathematician and a computer engineer for 20 years, so I don't take lectures on this tone.
I challenge you to find anything wrong in the simple facts I stated. Others on this forum perfectly understood what I meant.
Everything is wrong. Instead of to declare your job experience, first, my offer (not lecture) for you (as a mathematician) to study a basic things of Nyquist (also known as Whittaker–Nyquist–Kotelnikov–Shannon) sampling theorem, and second - Sony/Phillis Scarlet book.
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I just said that SA-CD provided so-called hi-res sound, with higher sampling rate or horizontal resolution (e.g. 192khz instead of 44.1) and higher bit depth or vertical resolution (i.e. 24 bits instead of 16) than normal Redbook CDs.
Do not kidding me here. You said:
SA-CDs, aside for surround mastering when it exists, offer higher horizontal (192khz instead of 44.1) and vertical (24/48/96 bits instead of 16) resolution than CDs.
It's a nonsense.
I don't like to praise myself but I have been a mathematician and a computer engineer for 20 years, so I don't take lectures on this tone.
I challenge you to find anything wrong in the simple facts I stated. Others on this forum perfectly understood what I meant.
Everything is wrong. Instead of to declare your job experience, first, my offer (not lecture) for you (as a mathematician) to study a basic things of Nyquist (also known as Whittaker–Nyquist–Kotelnikov–Shannon) sampling theorem, and second - Sony/Phillis Scarlet book.
Again you don't give any justification whatsoever. Discussing with you is pointless.
Thanks a lot for pointing to Nyquist, as if I had not heard of that !
I rest my case, this is leading to nowhere.
I suggest you (and everybody interested in the issue) read the following excellent paper. Very well written and enlightening. I have nothing to add or to withdraw.
https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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It would be nice if someone could explain it in words to someone like me that doesn't understand a technical word ;D
I asked if I buy any of those SACD and play them in my DVD player (a Phillips home cinema that plays Dolby surround and DTS) I will notice any significant difference in sound than the CDs, the original ones and the 1997/98 remasters...
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It would be nice if someone could explain it in words to someone like me that doesn't understand a technical word ;D
I asked if I buy any of those SACD and play them in my DVD player (a Phillips home cinema that plays Dolby surround and DTS) I will notice any significant difference in sound than the CDs, the original ones and the 1997/98 remasters...
I have the 1997 remasters too, which I still listen to very happily and would like the same explanation, please. :think All of those phrases mentioned above are just gobbledygook to me! ;D
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It would be nice if someone could explain it in words to someone like me that doesn't understand a technical word ;D
I asked if I buy any of those SACD and play them in my DVD player (a Phillips home cinema that plays Dolby surround and DTS) I will notice any significant difference in sound than the CDs, the original ones and the 1997/98 remasters...
Hi Jbaent,
To put it simple:
1) To play SA-CDs you need a dedicated player that is specifically designed for that. They become rather scarce these days, as the format is a niche. You would need one of those "universal" Blu-ray players with SACD playback enabled. They will not play on a normal DVD player. Or rather, chances are that those SA-CDs will also feature a normal CD layer for compatibility, so you would play this layer - with none of the claimed advantages of SA-CD.
2) As many have said, recording/mixing/mastering processes are way more important that any debate about the format. So you should really wonder where the master comes from, regardless of the physical format.
3) All things being equal, some people claim that SA-CDs have a higher audio quality than CDs. There is no evidence of this belief. There is evidence of the opposite, see the double-blind tests performed in 2007 and mentioned in the paper I quoted above.
My take: play a well recorded/mixed/mastered plain Redbook CD into a great CD player with great speakers. It will be as good as it gets. The good old CD format is good enough for our ears - and will be forever, as the paper concludes.
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Actually Tracker sound amazing in the DVD player!
So a bluray that actually support SACD, DTS and Dolby surround would be the best buy for this?
When BIA, STP and SL were released in SACD and dvd-audio I bought them in both formats and my DVD played the CD audio layer of the SACD CDs and they sounded very good, even better than the normal CDs to my ignorant ears... And the DVD audio sounded very well in 5.1 but, except the BIA that was properly mixed for surround, the others were nothing extraordinary...
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I notice that the albums from Shangri-la onwards were mastered by Bob Ludwig, Portland Oregon, not at BG.
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Actually Tracker sound amazing in the DVD player!
So a bluray that actually support SACD, DTS and Dolby surround would be the best buy for this?
For a modern good Blu-ray player, Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD-Master Audio support will come built-in.
SACD and DVD-Audio will only come on so-called "Universal" players - you need to check. DVD-A is virtually dead (too bad the STP MK album was released in this format) and SA-CD, although not dead, is quite rare. There are still new releases though, especially classical.
To me, SA-CD, DVD-A and their successor, Blu-Ray pure audio, are stillborn formats. Redbook CD is good enough for audiophiles, vinyl is the way to go for nostalgic, geeks go for high quality downloads and teenagers could not care less about sound quality for their stuff, so they go for MP3 :)
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Actually Tracker sound amazing in the DVD player!
So a bluray that actually support SACD, DTS and Dolby surround would be the best buy for this?
When BIA, STP and SL were released in SACD and dvd-audio I bought them in both formats and my DVD played the CD audio layer of the SACD CDs and they sounded very good, even better than the normal CDs to my ignorant ears... And the DVD audio sounded very well in 5.1 but, except the BIA that was properly mixed for surround, the others were nothing extraordinary...
Chances are you also played the compressed DTS layer of the DVD rather than the real DVD-A Layer :) who cares if it sounded good ! :)
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Actually Tracker sound amazing in the DVD player!
So a bluray that actually support SACD, DTS and Dolby surround would be the best buy for this?
When BIA, STP and SL were released in SACD and dvd-audio I bought them in both formats and my DVD played the CD audio layer of the SACD CDs and they sounded very good, even better than the normal CDs to my ignorant ears... And the DVD audio sounded very well in 5.1 but, except the BIA that was properly mixed for surround, the others were nothing extraordinary...
Chances are you also played the compressed DTS layer of the DVD rather than the real DVD-A Layer :) who cares if it sounded good ! :)
It sounded in 5.1 for sure... I checked all the speakers one by one ;)
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Several websites announce remasters of the first four Dire Straits albums on SACD and 45rpm 2LP by Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab. Great news! These guys really know what they're doing and really can make a difference In getting out the very best of a recording soundwise.
So...
Anyone with just a normal CD player, or a DVD like me... Does it worth to buy these new versions?
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Actually Tracker sound amazing in the DVD player!
So a bluray that actually support SACD, DTS and Dolby surround would be the best buy for this?
When BIA, STP and SL were released in SACD and dvd-audio I bought them in both formats and my DVD played the CD audio layer of the SACD CDs and they sounded very good, even better than the normal CDs to my ignorant ears... And the DVD audio sounded very well in 5.1 but, except the BIA that was properly mixed for surround, the others were nothing extraordinary...
Chances are you also played the compressed DTS layer of the DVD rather than the real DVD-A Layer :) who cares if it sounded good ! :)
It sounded in 5.1 for sure... I checked all the speakers one by one ;)
Indeed. But lossy 5.1 :)
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Several websites announce remasters of the first four Dire Straits albums on SACD and 45rpm 2LP by Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab. Great news! These guys really know what they're doing and really can make a difference In getting out the very best of a recording soundwise.
So...
Anyone with just a normal CD player, or a DVD like me... Does it worth to buy these new versions?
Unless they improve drastically on the already excellent masters, which I seriously doubt, and that these masters are also reflected on the CD layer of the SA-CD, or released on CDs, I would say yes, pretty useless...
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The only truth is in blind test.
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The only truth is in blind test.
Double-blind test :)
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The announced remasters on sacd will be hybrids and therefore will also contain the remastered audio on a regular cd layer. So, the answer to the question if it's worth to buy them if you only have a regular cd/dvd player still depends on the actual quality of the remasters, but that also holds if you do have a sacd player. We just have to wait and see, I mean listen. Still, I hope they manage to somehow improve a bit on the somewhat muddy sound of communique and the bit narrow soundstage of making movies.
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But you need cable like this: http://www.nordost.com/odin-supreme-reference/odin2/power-cord.php . Like 15 000 USD for one meter ;D
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But you need cable like this: http://www.nordost.com/odin-supreme-reference/odin2/power-cord.php . Like 15 000 USD for one meter ;D
Don't forget the 10,000$ Mark Knopfler Signature Les Paul... your sound system will sound 100 times better with this guitar simply laying around :lol
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But you need cable like this: http://www.nordost.com/odin-supreme-reference/odin2/power-cord.php . Like 15 000 USD for one meter ;D
In reality I think tests have shown that any cable will do the same job in digital media. However a gold plated one will not oxidise and have better longevity. I use the optical output on my CD player anyway.
Oh, and BTW I gave my SACD player/DVD player to a charity shop - never used it.
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The great thing about this is to listen the same song in different formats, getting to know how different sounds one from the others, when different remasters are done. For me the best one is the one where the voices and instruments sounds as real as they can be. And admit that the 2010 Japanese SHM CD is my choice (playing Les boys in a quick blind experiment with heaphones).
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I am not shure about witch Dire Straits remaster they are but I think the first? They sound terrble! Very low voice from Mark.
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Several websites announce remasters of the first four Dire Straits albums on SACD and 45rpm 2LP by Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab. Great news! These guys really know what they're doing and really can make a difference In getting out the very best of a recording soundwise.
So...
Anyone with just a normal CD player, or a DVD like me... Does it worth to buy these new versions?
I have the "first" remaster of LOG, so, that must be 1997 (?, the Super Bit Mapped version), and I noticed the difference in sound, particularly parts of TR and INR.
I did not know there had been a second remaster of these albums, in the 2000's. Is that what I am to understand?
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Several websites announce remasters of the first four Dire Straits albums on SACD and 45rpm 2LP by Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab. Great news! These guys really know what they're doing and really can make a difference In getting out the very best of a recording soundwise.
So...
Anyone with just a normal CD player, or a DVD like me... Does it worth to buy these new versions?
I have the "first" remaster of LOG, so, that must be 1997 (?, the Super Bit Mapped version), and I noticed the difference in sound, particularly parts of TR and INR.
I did not know there had been a second remaster of these albums, in the 2000's. Is that what I am to understand?
The Bob Ludwig remasters were first released in 1996 by Mercury, and then re-released by Warner Brothers in 2000. Some parts of the artwork are different, but the audio is identical.
Unrelated- the Ludwig remaster of BiA is also on the 16/44 side of the BiA dual disc that was released by WB in 2005 in the US.
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I received an email from MFSL today that the self-titled, Communique, Making Movies, and Love over Gold will be re-released by them on 45 rpm vinyl and SACD in "late October". I have a mild interest to see how the SACDs compare to the Japanese SHMs- particularly the self-titled, which has two different SHM versions.
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Both the cds and vinyl will be out on November 1st.
The vinyls are all double lps and if they are like the previously released BIA will sound better on a decent system.
I know I shouldn't,especially at £50 per album,but I do like double LPs:)
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It's surprising that there are still releases in SACD, I don't know anyone who has a SACD player at all... but the format is still alive and there are items being released...
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It's surprising that there are still releases in SACD, I don't know anyone who has a SACD player at all... but the format is still alive and there are items being released...
I don't know anyone who has a CD player at all :lol
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It's surprising that there are still releases in SACD, I don't know anyone who has a SACD player at all... but the format is still alive and there are items being released...
I don't know anyone who has a CD player at all :lol
I have one, in my car!
I've been using my dvd player to play cds for years. It has a home cinema sound system and they sound amazing there.
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Is there news somewhere about this re-issue of the vinyls? Will it be on 180g quality vinyl like the WB 2009 versions?
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Is there news somewhere about this re-issue of the vinyls? Will it be on 180g quality vinyl like the WB 2009 versions?
Yes the double lps will be on 180g vinyl.
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Is there news somewhere about this re-issue of the vinyls? Will it be on 180g quality vinyl like the WB 2009 versions?
Yes the double lps will be on 180g vinyl.
And i was just going to buy the WB 2009 versions of DS albums, maybe I should wait then...
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TR on 45t :think
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I have a doubt with the SHM-SACD japanese versions of the DS records, the description says " fully compatible with standard SACD player, but it does not play on standard CD players", but I thought that normally these has a compatible layer to be readable on cd players... They don't have that layer and if you don't have a sacd player, they are not working?
I use to play dvd-audios and sacd cds in my phillips home cinema, which has DTS, and I can play all the SACD of MK (Sailing or Shangrila for example) on my dvd player... would these shm-sacd play on it as well?
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Beware CD layer on SACD are NOT mandatory so if it does not says "CD player" it won't play.
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I was at the Hi Fi Show at Ascot yesterday, and several rooms were playing the new vinyl 45rpm albums. I’m not a big vinyl fan but I have to admit they did sound good. And it WAS good to hear more Straits than for a while - Brothers in Arms made the odd appearance, as did Why Worry, both the original and a cover.
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I have ordered al 4 of them, my dealer told me it could be a month or so before I get them. ;D
Brian
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I have a doubt with the SHM-SACD japanese versions of the DS records, the description says " fully compatible with standard SACD player, but it does not play on standard CD players", but I thought that normally these has a compatible layer to be readable on cd players... They don't have that layer and if you don't have a sacd player, they are not working?
I use to play dvd-audios and sacd cds in my phillips home cinema, which has DTS, and I can play all the SACD of MK (Sailing or Shangrila for example) on my dvd player... would these shm-sacd play on it as well?
If you were playing on a non SACD player, you were playing the CD versions, which are also contained on the HYBRID SACDs.
I have all the Japanese SHM SACDs and if they are not hybrids they wont play on non SACD players.
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Also in looking into SACDs of Brothers in Arms , I found that the 2013 Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs MFSL is 55:16 in length as compared to the 2014 Japanese SHM SACD of 47:xx minutes
The sound is different on these 2 versions too.
I think more bass on the 2013 version
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Also in looking into SACDs of Brothers in Arms , I found that the 2013 Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs MFSL is 55:16 in length as compared to the 2014 Japanese SHM SACD of 47:xx minutes
The sound is different on these 2 versions too.
I think more bass on the 2013 version
Did you check which songs are longer and why? it's 8 minutes more...
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Also in looking into SACDs of Brothers in Arms , I found that the 2013 Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs MFSL is 55:16 in length as compared to the 2014 Japanese SHM SACD of 47:xx minutes
The sound is different on these 2 versions too.
I think more bass on the 2013 version
Seems that the Japanese version maybe has a song missing. 8 mins is a lot. Perhaps Why Bother?
The LP lasts for 47:21 and CD for 55:07 according to Wiki. Maybe it contains the edited versions of the LP?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_in_Arms_(album)#CD_and_cassette
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Also in looking into SACDs of Brothers in Arms , I found that the 2013 Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs MFSL is 55:16 in length as compared to the 2014 Japanese SHM SACD of 47:xx minutes
The sound is different on these 2 versions too.
I think more bass on the 2013 version
Did you check which songs are longer and why? it's 8 minutes more...
That's because the SHM was mastered from the LP cutting tapes. No original analog two channel mix of BiA exists. The original two channel digital mix was made from the Sony DASH multi-tracks that had just 16 bits resolution sampled at 44.1 kHz. The LP cutting tape is simply an edited version of the digital master to make the album fit on one LP, with some heavy EQ to remove very low bass frequencies, since those frequencies are difficult to press on vinyl. Why the Vertigo SHM release used this as a source is beyond me, but fortunately we have the excellent MoFi release with the full digital source to listen to instead.
I finally sat down and compared all three recent releases of the self-titled including the 2010 SHM SACD, the 2013 SHM Platinum CD, and the recent Mo-Fi. I was surprised to find that the MoFi was an improvement over all of the Japanese re-releases! Against the 2010 SACD it wasn't even close. The 2010 release has a much higher level of tape hiss and is more dynamically compressed. I am somehow convinced that this disc used a higher generation tape and not the master as the booklet claims, but that's purely a guess. Comparing against the Platinum CD was a closer comparison, but the MoFi has more detail in the high end for sure, and the bass is more defined. The clarity of the cymbals on Water of Love is unrivaled on any other release. So much clarity with no harshness of any kind. These differences didn't take much critical listening to find and would be obvious on any decent playback system. I always wrote off the self titled album as somewhat lacking in production quality and chalked it up to the era of recording, but after listening to the MoFi a few times, I have definitely changed my mind.
Overall, I have to hand it to MoFi- they have a small mastering studio in the middle of nowhere in California far removed from all of the big LA studios (and thankfully on the opposite coast from Bob Ludwig), but they have produced some of the best sounding re-issues of classic rock albums. They have proved that mastering is all in the fine details and those fine details can make a huge difference in the final sound quality.