A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Terry01 on September 28, 2020, 04:36:33 PM
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Terry its mi favourite drummer of DS ever. Yes, Pick was a very tecnhic and groove drummer, but Terry´s style completes every well the powerful sound of DS, IMHO. LOG and BIA TOUR. Alchemy recording, live version of Money for nothing(no ones can make this song powerful than Terry, no Steve Ferrone, no Chris Witten, only Terry for me, makes MFN more awesome), BIA and SOS songs too.. some of this doesnt was the same if Terry wasnt the drummer in that period
Tell me your opinions!
Sorry for my bad english, greetings from ARGENTINA!
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DS were never the same once Pick left.
Don't get me wrong, Terry is great, an absolute force of nature live, but Pick was really distinctive. One of the few drummers who you can actually recognise just from a few short passages. Just listen to the drums on the first album, or TOL, truly distinctive, subtle, and imo massively underrated.
You could probably make an argument that Terry was more bombastic and better live but Pick chose to go before their stadium peak so who's to know what he would have brought to the party.
2 great drummers though.....
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Pick is unique. All of the first real dire straits records with hım. After LOG album DS was a pop band. Brothers in Arms and On Every Street not real DS style.
Pick, Mark, David and John=DS imho.
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DS were never the same once Pick left.
Don't get me wrong, Terry is great, an absolute force of nature live, but Pick was really distinctive. One of the few drummers who you can actually recognise just from a few short passages. Just listen to the drums on the first album, or TOL, truly distinctive, subtle, and imo massively underrated.
You could probably make an argument that Terry was more bombastic and better live but Pick chose to go before their stadium peak so who's to know what he would have brought to the party.
2 great drummers though.....
I definitely think Pick could have handled the stadium shows, just listen to the 1980 Dortmund show. That's almost Alchemy-level energy. Someone mentioned Pick recently on Guy's forum and said he would have been great on the Brothers In Arms album, and I agree. He certainly would have handled the subtleties Mark was after on that recording.
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Pick was NOT the drummer for what MK wanted in the 80's, that was very clearly a powerful rock drummer, that's why Terry got the job, despite the fact he was just "the live shows drummer", as he only played in studio for the "Extended dance play" EP and "Walk of life" and "MFN intro" for Brothers in arms...
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Pick was NOT the drummer for what MK wanted in the 80's, that was very clearly a powerful rock drummer, that's why Terry got the job, despite the fact he was just "the live shows drummer", as he only played in studio for the "Extended dance play" EP and "Walk of life" and "MFN intro" for Brothers in arms...
I disagree for 2 reasons.
First, listen to TOL or TR and tell me that those drums aren't full of muscular sounding rock drums? Pick could play any style and still sound like Pick.
Second, Pick chose to leave, he wasn't pushed.
DS lost a certain intimacy on his departure.....
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Nice interview with Terry here: https://www.moderndrummer.com/article/may-1986-terry-williams-strait-foundation/ It seems the interview was done during the BIA tour.
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Pick was NOT the drummer for what MK wanted in the 80's, that was very clearly a powerful rock drummer, that's why Terry got the job, despite the fact he was just "the live shows drummer", as he only played in studio for the "Extended dance play" EP and "Walk of life" and "MFN intro" for Brothers in arms...
I disagree for 2 reasons.
First, listen to TOL or TR and tell me that those drums aren't full of muscular sounding rock drums? Pick could play any style and still sound like Pick.
Second, Pick chose to leave, he wasn't pushed.
DS lost a certain intimacy on his departure.....
I disagree with your two disagrements...
1/ Tunnel and TR sounded bleaker live with Pick than they sounded with Terry. Pick was a great drummer for the DS 4 piece band of the start, but didn't fit as well with the "best rock and roll orchestra" that MK used to say the band had turn into. If Mk would had liked Pick drumming so much, he would had chosed a very different drummer than Terry...
2/ Pick left for a reason, and that reason is he waqsn't comfortable with the more rock and roller pace that DS were chasing. He had it mind even before starting the LOG recordings and when they started, he took the decision of leave the band after the recording. Yes, there were other reasons too, being too far from home for too long, but if you read Pick words at the Michael Oldfield book, you would read that musical reasons he gave. He actually was pushed by the musical change in the band.
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Pick was NOT the drummer for what MK wanted in the 80's, that was very clearly a powerful rock drummer, that's why Terry got the job, despite the fact he was just "the live shows drummer", as he only played in studio for the "Extended dance play" EP and "Walk of life" and "MFN intro" for Brothers in arms...
I disagree for 2 reasons.
First, listen to TOL or TR and tell me that those drums aren't full of muscular sounding rock drums? Pick could play any style and still sound like Pick.
Second, Pick chose to leave, he wasn't pushed.
DS lost a certain intimacy on his departure.....
I disagree with your two disagrements...
1/ Tunnel and TR sounded bleaker live with Pick than they sounded with Terry. Pick was a great drummer for the DS 4 piece band of the start, but didn't fit as well with the "best rock and roll orchestra" that MK used to say the band had turn into. If Mk would had liked Pick drumming so much, he would had chosed a very different drummer than Terry...
2/ Pick left for a reason, and that reason is he waqsn't comfortable with the more rock and roller pace that DS were chasing. He had it mind even before starting the LOG recordings and when they started, he took the decision of leave the band after the recording. Yes, there were other reasons too, being too far from home for too long, but if you read Pick words at the Michael Oldfield book, you would read that musical reasons he gave. He actually was pushed by the musical change in the band.
You have to give credit to the guy for having stainless steel balls to leave a successful band, knowing that you probably will not participate in a bigger group, that's hard. It takes the same amount of self-respect as Mark's decision of not including everything from his brother, that lead to his departure. Clearly, Pick could've played everything that he "needed to", but if you don't like it, you don't like it. He's a musician, not your typical session drummer. It's like trying to pursue Ringo Starr to play on some metal albums :lol
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Pick was NOT the drummer for what MK wanted in the 80's, that was very clearly a powerful rock drummer, that's why Terry got the job, despite the fact he was just "the live shows drummer", as he only played in studio for the "Extended dance play" EP and "Walk of life" and "MFN intro" for Brothers in arms...
I disagree for 2 reasons.
First, listen to TOL or TR and tell me that those drums aren't full of muscular sounding rock drums? Pick could play any style and still sound like Pick.
Second, Pick chose to leave, he wasn't pushed.
DS lost a certain intimacy on his departure.....
I disagree with your two disagrements...
1/ Tunnel and TR sounded bleaker live with Pick than they sounded with Terry. Pick was a great drummer for the DS 4 piece band of the start, but didn't fit as well with the "best rock and roll orchestra" that MK used to say the band had turn into. If Mk would had liked Pick drumming so much, he would had chosed a very different drummer than Terry...
2/ Pick left for a reason, and that reason is he waqsn't comfortable with the more rock and roller pace that DS were chasing. He had it mind even before starting the LOG recordings and when they started, he took the decision of leave the band after the recording. Yes, there were other reasons too, being too far from home for too long, but if you read Pick words at the Michael Oldfield book, you would read that musical reasons he gave. He actually was pushed by the musical change in the band.
You have to give credit to the guy for having stainless steel balls to leave a successful band, knowing that you probably will not participate in a bigger group, that's hard. It takes the same amount of self-respect as Mark's decision of not including everything from his brother, that lead to his departure. Clearly, Pick could've played everything that he "needed to", but if you don't like it, you don't like it. He's a musician, not your typical session drummer. It's like trying to pursue Ringo Starr to play on some metal albums :lol
Couldn't agree more with that sentiment quizzaciously. It tajes a real musician who knows his own heart to take such a brave decision.
Jbaent, listen to the studio recording of TOL. Sorry but Terry never got anywhere near the complexity of that drum part. It is utterly superb and really underrated. Listen for example to Picks use of subtle and quite unusual fills, or the passage before the first solo, Picks triplet fills are just on another level, not to mention the much underused high hat sizzle!
I'm in no way disrespecting DS with TW at all, he was a powerhouse of a drummer and deserves massive respect. Just not on the same level as a musician for me sorry.....
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Terry wasn't the man to going to complex places, but the man to play a powerful version of whatever Pick or Omar recorded with complexity.
Complexity is good for a studio record, even Jeff Porcaro was powerful live and complex in studio, same for Manu Katche. Pick was the same in studio and live, and live he was behind the powerful performance of his band mates.
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Terry wasn't the man to going to complex places, but the man to play a powerful version of whatever Pick or Omar recorded with complexity.
Complexity is good for a studio record, even Jeff Porcaro was powerful live and complex in studio, same for Manu Katche. Pick was the same in studio and live, and live he was behind the powerful performance of his band mates.
Jbaent. That's a straw man argument. Did you ever actually hear Pick live back in the 80s?
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Terry wasn't the man to going to complex places, but the man to play a powerful version of whatever Pick or Omar recorded with complexity.
Complexity is good for a studio record, even Jeff Porcaro was powerful live and complex in studio, same for Manu Katche. Pick was the same in studio and live, and live he was behind the powerful performance of his band mates.
Jbaent. That's a straw man argument. Did you ever actually hear Pick live back in the 80s?
I've heard most of the bootlegs and videos from the 80/81 tour of DS and it was very clear that the band was moving to a rocking sound, all except Pick that remained with his own style, very nice for the studio, but not enough for the live perfomances. The band went to a different and more rocker level the next tour with Terry on drums.
Think that MK needed someone like Omar Hakim to record the "complexity" of BIA but went with Terry without hesitation for the tour to play most of that record.
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Terry wasn't the man to going to complex places, but the man to play a powerful version of whatever Pick or Omar recorded with complexity.
Complexity is good for a studio record, even Jeff Porcaro was powerful live and complex in studio, same for Manu Katche. Pick was the same in studio and live, and live he was behind the powerful performance of his band mates.
Jbaent. That's a straw man argument. Did you ever actually hear Pick live back in the 80s?
I've heard most of the bootlegs and videos from the 80/81 tour of DS and it was very clear that the band was moving to a rocking sound, all except Pick that remained with his own style, very nice for the studio, but not enough for the live perfomances. The band went to a different and more rocker level the next tour with Terry on drums.
Think that MK needed someone like Omar Hakim to record the "complexity" of BIA but went with Terry without hesitation for the tour to play most of that record.
I didn't mean bootlegs or old recordings. Did you actually see them live? Because I think you're being a little unfair to PW and his abilities.
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Terry wasn't the man to going to complex places, but the man to play a powerful version of whatever Pick or Omar recorded with complexity.
Complexity is good for a studio record, even Jeff Porcaro was powerful live and complex in studio, same for Manu Katche. Pick was the same in studio and live, and live he was behind the powerful performance of his band mates.
Jbaent. That's a straw man argument. Did you ever actually hear Pick live back in the 80s?
I've heard most of the bootlegs and videos from the 80/81 tour of DS and it was very clear that the band was moving to a rocking sound, all except Pick that remained with his own style, very nice for the studio, but not enough for the live perfomances. The band went to a different and more rocker level the next tour with Terry on drums.
Think that MK needed someone like Omar Hakim to record the "complexity" of BIA but went with Terry without hesitation for the tour to play most of that record.
I didn't mean bootlegs or old recordings. Did you actually see them live? Because I think you're being a little unfair to PW and his abilities.
I didn't see Pick or Terry live. I'm judging them by the same, the audio and video recordings.
I'm not being unfair with PW abilities, I'm telling TW is far better live for the rocker band that DS became in the 80's, that PW style didn't fit with that more rock approach, he was behind the rest of the band in that aspect. The band moved on, he kept playing his lovely style, but didn't fit with the more straight approach of the "new DS". Terry did.
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Terry wasn't the man to going to complex places, but the man to play a powerful version of whatever Pick or Omar recorded with complexity.
Complexity is good for a studio record, even Jeff Porcaro was powerful live and complex in studio, same for Manu Katche. Pick was the same in studio and live, and live he was behind the powerful performance of his band mates.
Jbaent. That's a straw man argument. Did you ever actually hear Pick live back in the 80s?
I've heard most of the bootlegs and videos from the 80/81 tour of DS and it was very clear that the band was moving to a rocking sound, all except Pick that remained with his own style, very nice for the studio, but not enough for the live perfomances. The band went to a different and more rocker level the next tour with Terry on drums.
Think that MK needed someone like Omar Hakim to record the "complexity" of BIA but went with Terry without hesitation for the tour to play most of that record.
I didn't mean bootlegs or old recordings. Did you actually see them live? Because I think you're being a little unfair to PW and his abilities.
I didn't see Pick or Terry live. I'm judging them by the same, the audio and video recordings.
I'm not being unfair with PW abilities, I'm telling TW is far better live for the rocker band that DS became in the 80's, that PW style didn't fit with that more rock approach, he was behind the rest of the band in that aspect. The band moved on, he kept playing his lovely style, but didn't fit with the more straight approach of the "new DS". Terry did.
Straw man again, you are comparing oranges and apples. The only way to support said point of view is to invent time travel and demand to mark that Pick plays shows on the BIA tour!
Each to their own opinion though i guess....
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Any song sounds different with any different musician, drummer guitarist or any
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My first thought of Terry Williams: rock expression.
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Terry wasn't the man to going to complex places, but the man to play a powerful version of whatever Pick or Omar recorded with complexity.
Complexity is good for a studio record, even Jeff Porcaro was powerful live and complex in studio, same for Manu Katche. Pick was the same in studio and live, and live he was behind the powerful performance of his band mates.
Jbaent. That's a straw man argument. Did you ever actually hear Pick live back in the 80s?
I've heard most of the bootlegs and videos from the 80/81 tour of DS and it was very clear that the band was moving to a rocking sound, all except Pick that remained with his own style, very nice for the studio, but not enough for the live perfomances. The band went to a different and more rocker level the next tour with Terry on drums.
Think that MK needed someone like Omar Hakim to record the "complexity" of BIA but went with Terry without hesitation for the tour to play most of that record.
I didn't mean bootlegs or old recordings. Did you actually see them live? Because I think you're being a little unfair to PW and his abilities.
I didn't see Pick or Terry live. I'm judging them by the same, the audio and video recordings.
I'm not being unfair with PW abilities, I'm telling TW is far better live for the rocker band that DS became in the 80's, that PW style didn't fit with that more rock approach, he was behind the rest of the band in that aspect. The band moved on, he kept playing his lovely style, but didn't fit with the more straight approach of the "new DS". Terry did.
Straw man again, you are comparing oranges and apples. The only way to support said point of view is to invent time travel and demand to mark that Pick plays shows on the BIA tour!
Each to their own opinion though i guess....
I never said that, but if it works for you to mantein your "straw man" speech, whatever it works for you...
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Pick Whiters has his own facebook page now, run by his wife and Henk Pestman. I guess he's open for questions :) I'm not a drummer (nor musician), but it's nice to see what the former members are up to. I follow Chris Witten on Instagram. Pretty much all of them are on facebook and/or instagram now.
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Pick Withers - Percussion Discussion. With really nice stories of DS early period.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUHGkkfh6DE&t=206s
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Pick Withers - Percussion Discussion. With really nice stories of DS early period.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUHGkkfh6DE&t=206s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUHGkkfh6DE&t=206s)
Lovely interview. He still has that "joker" quality that he displayed in interviews in the early days. Funny guy.
How about this: 44:50-45:35