A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Lucas_99 on May 16, 2021, 06:52:09 PM
-
I've read a lot about all the different drumers in Dire Straits here on the forum and how they all had a hard time with Mark.
I wonder why Chris Whitten is regarded as the worst drummer for OES Tour? Especially on how he ruined Sultans of Swing. I think differently on that but im interested into the others perspective.
I like all Drummers, from Pick to Chris. They all fit very well into the band at the time.
The only one I dont really like is Chad Cromwell drummings on DS Songs but thats it.
-
Picks drumming had real character for me, an instantly recognisable style. Terry, while a really good and powerful drummer never quite had that. Take TOL or Sultans as prime examples of the difference.
-
Pick and Terry had soul, no offence to Chris, but it didn't sound like he really liked playing the songs and his sound was technically very good, but to me felt clinical and the songs suffered as a result on the OES tour. However, this was also combined with pedal steel and percussion additions which over complicated the sound on this tour, as well as MK not enjoying the tour.
Terry was a pure powerhouse, in a good way, and I liked his drumming on tours the best - Alchemy would not be what it is without Terry at the helm. Pick was more of a jazz drummer and his contributions to 4 out of 6 studio albums should not be understated; really intricate.
-
It is well known that after the recordings of on every street, Mark found himself receiving many no's in forming the band for the tour. Two names above all: Jeff Porcaro and Vince Gil. Obviously we will never know how it would have been with their contribution, but certainly a different sound.
The fact that Mark got tired right away is a sign that at some point the sound probably no longer satisfied him. I remember that on the no listing sos for otn he charged it precisely to the fact of the unsatisfactory sound.
Then in my opinion a heavy presence of pedal steel on everything, made that tour still adorable for us, but targeted by general critics.
:thumbsup
-
I always says that Chris Whitten drumming in SOS is like he was trying to hunt a flie around his drumkit with his drumsticks...
-
@Lucas_99 - You should change the size of your avatar. It's too tall.
As for drummers, I love Pick's work on the first two albums in particular. His style works especially well in a small-ensemble setting. On the "big" songs, like TOL and TR, I'm not so sure.
Terry's work on Alchemy though is just amazing. Totally love his drumming on OUATITW. He's not the man for subtleties and intricate studio work, but live he kicks butt.
Chris Whitten probably shouldn't have been chosen in the first place as, by his own admission, he wasn't keen on the music OR working with Mark. Obviously, he's not a bad drummer, and there's a lot of great stuff of his from the OES recordings. I honestely think he fit rather well to the "studio-style sound" Mark wanted for that tour, but I think Terry would have brought a lot more "fun" to the gig.
-
To a man like MK who has obviously a problem with drummers and the meaning of drumming in general ("the best drummer is no drummer at all"), Chris Whitten or also Manu Katché, to whom his music meant nothing, were the perfect drummers.
Chris Whitten definitely delivered the best Live Sultans apart from Terry Williams.
LE
-
During the OES tour, there was an MTV special and I remember a short interview clip with John Illsley about the new tour and his voice and body language said it all.. "we needed a new drummer, Chris was available, nice chap (shrugging shoulders) so he is on board.." in a very bored, unfriendly manner. It seems they saw the whole tour as "a job to be done" from the very beginning.
LE
-
Looked for it, from min 4:40
https://youtu.be/QFnHKNyPVxY
Memory served pretty well.. ;D
LE
-
@hunter Havent figured out how to upload a picture. Its says, that it wont upload but i will check...
Well they all never have been that much excited in interviews... But yeah, the way, they gave interviews in 92, it rlly seems like a "job to be done".
I didnt know, that Vince Gill was asked to join the Tour...
aaand i found that interview here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCloCqw-ZXw
Its very similiar to David saying, that he "doesnt just want to be a strummer in someone elses dream"
Regarding Chris, i see what you mean... Comes down to taste i guess. In general, i like when songs are played faster than usual so yeah.. :D
-
In my opinion, the best drummer (tecnhically talking) it´s Pick. The elegance of Pick was really nice.
In my personal preference, i think Terry Williams was the best drummer for the live situation. The force that Terry give to all songs, it´s awesome. And chris witten.. it´s a great drummer too, for sure, but i don´t like it. I think Chris Whitten ruined some songs, for example Sultans.. or the final solo on Money for Nothing.. i dont know if the concerts from 1992 sounds bad due a mix thing (on the BAsel recording, the drums sounds average, without power, but On the night, the drums sounds very very processed, and when the instruments sound very processed, they lost the beauty of the natural sound).
But it´s my humble opinion, in terms of groove and technique, Pick is the best. But for the live shows, for me, Terry was the best. I think that Alchemy, witout Terry, doesnt the same!
Greetings all from Argentina and sorry for my bad english
Enzo
-
In my opinion, the best drummer (tecnhically talking) it´s Pick. The elegance of Pick was really nice.
In my personal preference, i think Terry Williams was the best drummer for the live situation. The force that Terry give to all songs, it´s awesome. And chris witten.. it´s a great drummer too, for sure, but i don´t like it. I think Chris Whitten ruined some songs, for example Sultans.. or the final solo on Money for Nothing.. i dont know if the concerts from 1992 sounds bad due a mix thing (on the BAsel recording, the drums sounds average, without power, but On the night, the drums sounds very very processed, and when the instruments sound very processed, they lost the beauty of the natural sound).
But it´s my humble opinion, in terms of groove and technique, Pick is the best. But for the live shows, for me, Terry was the best. I think that Alchemy, witout Terry, doesnt the same!
Greetings all from Argentina and sorry for my bad english
Enzo
I have this same perspective, Pick is part of the sound gear that marked the band the first 4 albums, live between 1977/1979 it worked very well for that musical proposal, in the studio it was divine, perfect, but, with the sound change, Terry live was fundamental, Alchemy without Terry would not be the same, a pity that he did not participate in the OES tour 91/92, I have no doubt that it would be much more fun and interesting, Cris did not harmonize with the sonorous nature of the DS.
-
Some people have really strong opinion here, but music is down to personnal taste, nothing is definite.
My favourite sultans are the one with Chad Cromwell, really clean sound, perfect note at perfectly timed, just what I like.
I also like Terry's kind of energetic playing, he does look busy around the drums and it's what most people like at a concert, including me, music can also be "seen".
I don't quite like Chris Whitten's drumming, but then again I don't like that version of sultans, too fast, too in your face, the guitar is too technical almost.
-
I'd love to hear the Terry BIA versions - must be a boxset one day...
-
Some people have really strong opinion here, but music is down to personnal taste, nothing is definite.
My favourite sultans are the one with Chad Cromwell, really clean sound, perfect note at perfectly timed, just what I like.
I also like Terry's kind of energetic playing, he does look busy around the drums and it's what most people like at a concert, including me, music can also be "seen".
From physical appearance to overall feeling about his music, I don't quite like Chris Whitten. He had that "I'm a Professional" look if that means anything.
I totally agree with everything you say. Also I'm glad there is finally someone who appreciates Chad Cromwell's fine drumming. He is my favourite next to Pick Withers whose style still is unique.
-
Some people have really strong opinion here, but music is down to personnal taste, nothing is definite.
My favourite sultans are the one with Chad Cromwell, really clean sound, perfect note at perfectly timed, just what I like.
I also like Terry's kind of energetic playing, he does look busy around the drums and it's what most people like at a concert, including me, music can also be "seen".
From physical appearance to overall feeling about his music, I don't quite like Chris Whitten. He had that "I'm a Professional" look if that means anything.
I totally agree with everything you say. Also I'm glad there is finally someone who appreciates Chad Cromwell's fine drumming. He is my favourite next to Pick Withers whose style still is unique.
I agree with this, Pick then Chad for me. Ianto is also a fine drummer.
I am a Terry Williams fan, but more for the rocky live stuff and rocky recorded stuff with Nick Lowe/Dave Edmunds/Rockpile.
-
Some people have really strong opinion here, but music is down to personnal taste, nothing is definite.
My favourite sultans are the one with Chad Cromwell, really clean sound, perfect note at perfectly timed, just what I like.
I also like Terry's kind of energetic playing, he does look busy around the drums and it's what most people like at a concert, including me, music can also be "seen".
From physical appearance to overall feeling about his music, I don't quite like Chris Whitten. He had that "I'm a Professional" look if that means anything.
I totally agree with everything you say. Also I'm glad there is finally someone who appreciates Chad Cromwell's fine drumming. He is my favourite next to Pick Withers whose style still is unique.
I agree with this, Pick then Chad for me. Ianto is also a fine drummer.
I am a Terry Williams fan, but more for the rocky live stuff and rocky recorded stuff with Nick Lowe/Dave Edmunds/Rockpile.
What about Danny ? I thought it was widely recognized here that he was the finest drummer for Speedway...
-
Well... The thread is named "Dire Straits and drums". That's why I did not think about Chad, Danny or Ianto.
LE
-
Some people have really strong opinion here, but music is down to personnal taste, nothing is definite.
My favourite sultans are the one with Chad Cromwell, really clean sound, perfect note at perfectly timed, just what I like.
I also like Terry's kind of energetic playing, he does look busy around the drums and it's what most people like at a concert, including me, music can also be "seen".
From physical appearance to overall feeling about his music, I don't quite like Chris Whitten. He had that "I'm a Professional" look if that means anything.
I totally agree with everything you say. Also I'm glad there is finally someone who appreciates Chad Cromwell's fine drumming. He is my favourite next to Pick Withers whose style still is unique.
I agree with this, Pick then Chad for me. Ianto is also a fine drummer.
I am a Terry Williams fan, but more for the rocky live stuff and rocky recorded stuff with Nick Lowe/Dave Edmunds/Rockpile.
What about Danny ? I thought it was widely recognized here that he was the finest drummer for Speedway...
Exactly. I was thinking about Danny too. But I understand that the discussion is only DS
-
Back on listening to DS concerts, through the bootlegs, I quite like the punch and the finesse of both Terry Williams, from 1982 to 1988, 7 years spent in the group. No doubt for me, humbly.
-
Well... The thread is named "Dire Straits and drums". That's why I did not think about Chad, Danny or Ianto.
LE
I understood the thread (see opening post) as meaning drumming in Dire Straits songs. Also some posts mentionned Chad so I reacted.
If it's about Dire Straits only, it's Pick for me.
-
Danny Cummings played drums as part of Dire Straits during the MK and friends 2002 concerts in Shepherd Bush Empire in London and Beaulieu Palace.
-
Here is some rare solo footage of Terry on drums doing a really long solo in, er, 1991
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxh0XHbO3Bc
-
I have to say, the drumming for Dire Straits or MK solo is not something that has ever bothered me, I don't mind who plays the drums for Mark's songs, but maybe it's just me.
-
I have to say, the drumming for Dire Straits or MK solo is not something that has ever bothered me, I don't mind who plays the drums for Mark's songs, but maybe it's just me.
Agreed, its MK and his guitar I listen to and like you am not fussed who's bashing the skins!!
-
The drums are very important. The drums keep the beat, it's what makes a song sound fast, slow...
The difference between let's say Pick and Terry it's so obvious that the last posts seems that forgot that.
-
I know there is a difference, it is just not something that bothers me when I listen to dire straits or Mark solo.
-
The drums are very important. The drums keep the beat, it's what makes a song sound fast, slow...
The difference between let's say Pick and Terry it's so obvious that the last posts seems that forgot that.
Fast? Someone should Guy post about that this is possible.
LE
-
Interesting point of discussion.
As a musician, like many here, in 20 years playing guitar or bass, i tend to affirm that the drummer is the main vehicle for a great band performance.
Dire Straits was one kind of band with Pick and other with Terry. Even the LOG songs (recorded by Pick and played live by Terry) has a different feel.
Funny thing that i like Chris playing during the OES Tour. The whole band was great. There some different approaches, the songs were played in a slower tempo (many of them). But the overall sound was too processed. The band was playing flat.
In my opinion, The DS Concerts always was a 'product'.
The reharsals pushed the band to perfection. But, the concerts was mostly the same (with some few inspired ones). So, the OES tour was not different. Mostly of the concerts had the same feel. The concert was great if Mark was in the mood. And there's nothing wrong about it.
I like Chris perfformances and his touches on some songs, i believe, are still great.
Sorry my poor english.
Cya
-
Some people have really strong opinion here, but music is down to personnal taste, nothing is definite.
My favourite sultans are the one with Chad Cromwell, really clean sound, perfect note at perfectly timed, just what I like.
I also like Terry's kind of energetic playing, he does look busy around the drums and it's what most people like at a concert, including me, music can also be "seen".
From physical appearance to overall feeling about his music, I don't quite like Chris Whitten. He had that "I'm a Professional" look if that means anything.
I totally agree with everything you say. Also I'm glad there is finally someone who appreciates Chad Cromwell's fine drumming. He is my favourite next to Pick Withers whose style still is unique.
I agree with this, Pick then Chad for me. Ianto is also a fine drummer.
I am a Terry Williams fan, but more for the rocky live stuff and rocky recorded stuff with Nick Lowe/Dave Edmunds/Rockpile.
What about Danny ? I thought it was widely recognized here that he was the finest drummer for Speedway...
Danny is the finest drummer for everything re. Mark's band. ;)
-
Some people have really strong opinion here, but music is down to personnal taste, nothing is definite.
My favourite sultans are the one with Chad Cromwell, really clean sound, perfect note at perfectly timed, just what I like.
I also like Terry's kind of energetic playing, he does look busy around the drums and it's what most people like at a concert, including me, music can also be "seen".
From physical appearance to overall feeling about his music, I don't quite like Chris Whitten. He had that "I'm a Professional" look if that means anything.
I totally agree with everything you say. Also I'm glad there is finally someone who appreciates Chad Cromwell's fine drumming. He is my favourite next to Pick Withers whose style still is unique.
I agree with this, Pick then Chad for me. Ianto is also a fine drummer.
I am a Terry Williams fan, but more for the rocky live stuff and rocky recorded stuff with Nick Lowe/Dave Edmunds/Rockpile.
What about Danny ? I thought it was widely recognized here that he was the finest drummer for Speedway...
Danny is the finest drummer for everything re. Mark's band. ;)
I hope you are well my friend, seems we only hear from you when you need to say how great Danny is. :)
-
I have to say, the drumming for Dire Straits or MK solo is not something that has ever bothered me, I don't mind who plays the drums for Mark's songs, but maybe it's just me.
Agreed, its MK and his guitar I listen to and like you am not fussed who's bashing the skins!!
This doesn't resonate on a track such as Your Latest Trick. The original BIA recorrding is a masterpiece of restrained and complex jazz drumming and it's resurrection on the last tour was welcome and 'interesting' - not to sound too judgemental, but there are differences in feel that add / subtract to the way 'you' feel after listening. Again - I'd love to hear the TW recordings of BIA in a future boxset.
-
Do we know if they really exist? To my knowledge Terry did not too much at Montserrat apart from hanging around and then cutting that Money For Nothing intro.
LE
-
Do we know if they really exist? To my knowledge Terry did not too much at Montserrat apart from hanging around and then cutting that Money For Nothing intro.
LE
According to the articles I read about that, Terry recorded all the songs, but were all of them replaced later by Omar, except Walk of life and the MFN intro.
-
It's a shame for Terry but you can't really argue with the results. BiA went on to be an absolute smash and an all time classic.
-
The drums are very important. The drums keep the beat, it's what makes a song sound fast, slow...
The difference between let's say Pick and Terry it's so obvious that the last posts seems that forgot that.
I know what you're saying but you're a drummer yourself. All the other instruments are just in the background when I'm listening to Mark for the majority of the time. Some drummers play and suit his songs, some are better for rockier tunes, some for the more gentle folk orientated numbers, some always like to have the last word (no names Ianto) and some intrude on his playing like Chad with his symbols!
So personally I like the ones who compliment Mark and respect the music more than themselves. Pick and Terry do fine for me personally.
-
Do we know if they really exist? To my knowledge Terry did not too much at Montserrat apart from hanging around and then cutting that Money For Nothing intro.
LE
According to the articles I read about that, Terry recorded all the songs, but were all of them replaced later by Omar, except Walk of life and the MFN intro.
Was there not a story about some of Terry's recordings being wiped by accident with the new technology digital recording process?
-
Do we know if they really exist? To my knowledge Terry did not too much at Montserrat apart from hanging around and then cutting that Money For Nothing intro.
LE
According to the articles I read about that, Terry recorded all the songs, but were all of them replaced later by Omar, except Walk of life and the MFN intro.
Was there not a story about some of Terry's recordings being wiped by accident with the new technology digital recording process?
I heard that happened with the saxophone parts and also read that they lost the first week or so of recordings and had to record everythin again...
-
Do we know if they really exist? To my knowledge Terry did not too much at Montserrat apart from hanging around and then cutting that Money For Nothing intro.
LE
According to the articles I read about that, Terry recorded all the songs, but were all of them replaced later by Omar, except Walk of life and the MFN intro.
Was there not a story about some of Terry's recordings being wiped by accident with the new technology digital recording process?
I heard that happened with the saxophone parts and also read that they lost the first week or so of recordings and had to record everythin again...
Ah, that's right! Thanks for rejigging the old grey cells. lol.
-
What about Danny ? I thought it was widely recognized here that he was the finest drummer for Speedway...
Danny is the finest drummer for everything re. Mark's band. ;)
I hope you are well my friend, seems we only hear from you when you need to say how great Danny is. :)
I hope that you too are well Dusty. Actually, I've been reading and posting on and off recently, and not only for Danny.
Musically he was great in every aspect and him having to leave the band was a lame decision, to say the least. I do justice to him sometimes and I still hope that he can regain his seat one day.
Back on-topic, best DS drummer for me would be Pick. Jeff Porcaro and Manu Katche - whom I saw live two years ago and that was good - did a sterling job on the OES record.
-
The drums are very important. The drums keep the beat, it's what makes a song sound fast, slow...
The difference between let's say Pick and Terry it's so obvious that the last posts seems that forgot that.
I never knew that, thanks for the pointer!!! ::)
-
The drums are very important. The drums keep the beat, it's what makes a song sound fast, slow...
The difference between let's say Pick and Terry it's so obvious that the last posts seems that forgot that.
I never knew that, thanks for the pointer!!! ::)
You're welcome. Always happy to help.