A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Angelucci on June 22, 2022, 11:53:19 AM
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If Dire Straits continued to the current day, with John, David and Pick staying as the core with MK all the way through, and the band was more of a collaboration, which of DK's and JI's solo works do you think were good enough to have made it on to a Straits album at some point?
(For the sake of argument, in my mind MK would obviously still be in the driving creative force and the evolution of the DS sound would more or less follow MK's solo work in real life.)
I think there are a few from David. If God Could Make The Angels is a great song in my book, and I could see 4U and King Of Ashes being DS album tracks with the right band and production behind them.
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To be honest with you, I dismissed nearly all the work of ex-DS band members, it just doesn't cut it for me. I don't want to return to these songs, I don't want to print out their lyrics and put them on the wall if you know what I mean. It's good music, probably, and has its following though, I don't want to upset anyone.
I went through all discographies of John, David, and Guy, with the exception of a couple of songs ("High Stakes" from John's album "Glass" and "Different World" from Guy's album "Inamorata"), can't remember any of them. Probably because MK set a bar so high you inevitably try to compare their songs and guess who wins...
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To be honest with you, I dismissed nearly all the work of ex-DS band members, it just doesn't cut it for me. I don't want to return to these songs, I don't want to print out their lyrics and put them on the wall if you know what I mean. It's good music, probably, and has its following though, I don't want to upset anyone.
I went through all discographies of John, David, and Guy, with the exception of a couple of songs ("High Stakes" from John's album "Glass" and "Different World" from Guy's album "Inamorata"), can't remember any of them. Probably because MK set a bar so high you inevitably try to compare their songs and guess who wins...
I'm in the same boat. I can't say I've listened to many songs from ex-band members if I'm being honest. A few here and there, but nothing really made an impression. There was clearly a reason Mark did just about everything on the old albums.
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same for me. little or no interest in them.
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Sorry, no interest at all. Mark is the master - now and then!
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I've listened to almost all they have produced, but none of these guys has "it", the "X factor". There are just too many great, interesting artists to listen to for me to bother.
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Doesn't look too optimistic to me lol. I think DS was destined to split up at some point. Two egomaniac brothers, both singers-songwriters, what could go wrong?
I think Pick's leaving put the last nail in the DS coffin and since then it was a "smooth" transition to Mark Knopfler's solo career and changing musicians for 10 years.
So I think it's impossible to imagine DS in a democratic state (here goes a joke about Russia), and therefore impossible to imagine songs of other writers on the DS album.
I said a lot of times, but I often imagine On Every Street or even Brothers In Arms being Mark's first solo album. Now that would be something, isn't it? What "group" it was anyway? Mark and John? :lol
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To be fair, MK himself struggle to live up to the standards from the 70's and 80's. I don't know too much about the works from the other guys, but I remember I used to put Bernadette from Boston '79 on much more often than most MK tracks. So, my bet is that DK would be able to write something that would be considered good enough. What's the matter, baby is also just as good as most other DS tracks. I can't see any monster hits from the other guys, but tracks that are "good enough" to deserve a spot on a DS record with the right arrangements? Sure, no doubt in my mind about that. It's not like "the master" is untouchable. He's human, not a God.
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To be fair, MK himself struggle to live up to the standards from the 70's and 80's. I don't know too much about the works from the other guys, but I remember I used to put Bernadette from Boston '79 on much more often than most MK tracks. So, my bet is that DK would be able to write something that would be considered good enough. What's the matter, baby is also just as good as most other DS tracks. I can't see any monster hits from the other guys, but tracks that are "good enough" to deserve a spot on a DS record with the right arrangements? Sure, no doubt in my mind about that. It's not like "the master" is untouchable. He's human, not a God.
We really need to ask Mark about that, and that would be one of the questions I would personally ask him. He never ever talked about this whole democracy thing. But I think it's pretty clear that he's not a democratic leader even today... He hired the best musicians in the world that can come up with brilliant arrangements on the fly and sometimes even compose parts of songs for him, but all the credit always goes to "the master" because without the master it won't happen at all. It's like a movie director... How many people work on a movie? Can't even count, but it's a Quentin Tarantino movie. Or Andrei Tarkovsky's movie.
I think it's a personal thing and there are writers who allow only their music even on their band's record, prime example I always give is Fleet Foxes (because it's a modern single songwriter band). I think only with a single writer you can achieve this unmistakable consistency and sense of style, whereas in bands with multiple writers music usually go all over the place. Again, like in a movie with multiple directors.
And inevitably, having multiple writers, you are going to lose a bit of personality and focus. From John Illsley's book, it's also clear the band started with Mark's songs in mind. Everybody agreed on these terms, and who didn't agree, well we know how it all worked out... David said that he composed songs with his brother, however, I doubt that MK was selfish enough to straight-up steal writing credits from David. So I think he composed all the songs on his own with maybe a little help from DK (like the help from his current band members).
Heck, what about even Mark's recording studio? How many people worked on it? It wasn't Mark himself who built it, made plans, bought equipment, and whatever, but it always will be known as Mark Knopfler's recording studio because he owns the thing. If you recognize MK as the leader and trust him, you'll give up your musical ambitions, or any ambitions at all, and just work with him. MK may not be a God, but man what an amazing leader he is. And it's not even about being a yes man, but more about respect.
So I think the question is not even about the quality of songs. It's more about who owned the band... Take MK away and Dire Straits would certainly be one of the forgotten bands if existing at all. I think it won't even exist. Everything depended on this one guy, so I think it's fair that he would demand some respect in return. And respect also means that "good enough" is not a valid reason to put your songs on a record just to fill it.
And that MK struggles to live up to the standards from the 70's and 80's, I wholeheartedly disagree. Nobody could repeat their success from the most fruitful years, especially songwriters. You can barely find a songwriter who lived up to his younger standards. You can argue that Mark's recent songs are good, which they are, but they are not "Money For Nothing". Sure, but they weren't written by 35-year-old MK, we now only have the older MK, and 35-year-old MK will never happen again, it was a different man.
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To be fair, MK himself struggle to live up to the standards from the 70's and 80's. I don't know too much about the works from the other guys, but I remember I used to put Bernadette from Boston '79 on much more often than most MK tracks. So, my bet is that DK would be able to write something that would be considered good enough. What's the matter, baby is also just as good as most other DS tracks. I can't see any monster hits from the other guys, but tracks that are "good enough" to deserve a spot on a DS record with the right arrangements? Sure, no doubt in my mind about that. It's not like "the master" is untouchable. He's human, not a God.
We really need to ask Mark about that, and that would be one of the questions I would personally ask him. He never ever talked about this whole democracy thing. But I think it's pretty clear that he's not a democratic leader even today... He hired the best musicians in the world that can come up with brilliant arrangements on the fly and sometimes even compose parts of songs for him, but all the credit always goes to "the master" because without the master it won't happen at all. It's like a movie director... How many people work on a movie? Can't even count, but it's a Quentin Tarantino movie. Or Andrei Tarkovsky's movie.
I think it's a personal thing and there are writers who allow only their music even on their band's record, prime example I always give is Fleet Foxes (because it's a modern single songwriter band). I think only with a single writer you can achieve this unmistakable consistency and sense of style, whereas in bands with multiple writers music usually go all over the place. Again, like in a movie with multiple directors.
And inevitably, having multiple writers, you are going to lose a bit of personality and focus. From John Illsley's book, it's also clear the band started with Mark's songs in mind. Everybody agreed on these terms, and who didn't agree, well we know how it all worked out... David said that he composed songs with his brother, however, I doubt that MK was selfish enough to straight-up steal writing credits from David. So I think he composed all the songs on his own with maybe a little help from DK (like the help from his current band members).
Heck, what about even Mark's recording studio? How many people worked on it? It wasn't Mark himself who built it, made plans, bought equipment, and whatever, but it always will be known as Mark Knopfler's recording studio because he owns the thing. If you recognize MK as the leader and trust him, you'll give up your musical ambitions, or any ambitions at all, and just work with him. MK may not be a God, but man what an amazing leader he is. And it's not even about being a yes man, but more about respect.
So I think the question is not even about the quality of songs. It's more about who owned the band... Take MK away and Dire Straits would certainly be one of the forgotten bands if existing at all. I think it won't even exist. Everything depended on this one guy, so I think it's fair that he would demand some respect in return. And respect also means that "good enough" is not a valid reason to put your songs on a record just to fill it.
And that MK struggles to live up to the standards from the 70's and 80's, I wholeheartedly disagree. Nobody could repeat their success from the most fruitful years, especially songwriters. You can barely find a songwriter who lived up to his younger standards. You can argue that Mark's recent songs are good, which they are, but they are not "Money For Nothing". Sure, but they weren't written by 35-year-old MK, we now only have the older MK, and 35-year-old MK will never happen again, it was a different man.
My point is that songs performed by DS, written by David K, are just as good songs as most non-hits by MK. Sure, we can always discuss our opinions on the matter of Song A vs Song B, but having a bunch of diehard fans doing their best to place the "non-Masters" below "the Master" is... well... predictable and should be taken with more than a grain of salt.
I don't mind the idea that you hire some musicians for a tour/a record, that's an honest thing. But if you're in a band, you're in a band. Dire Straits was Dire Straits, not Mark Knopfler and Friends. Sure, some people are more important than others, but if Springsteen could find a way to keep the band going after Clarence Clemons died, I'm sure it would be possible to make DS without MK's guitar sound a good experience, also. It's easy to be pessimistic about that idea, but the fact is that nobody is irreplaceable at the end of the day. It's also about how the musicians work together - you can't just sum up the individual components of a team to get the total.We don't know how DS would be without Pick, David or John in the early days. Especially John or Pick. Sultans might not be a hit with a different lineup. It's more than just the twiddly bits at the end that makes it what it is. R&J is perhaps an even better example of good teamwork. If it was put on later records, I'm not sure we'd like the outcome, simply because the lineup changed (LOG is the exception, of course). After 1981, it was never the same again.
Respect is a nice word. This whole "Mark is God, the others are peasants and should be lucky they ever met him" thing is the exact opposite. For whatever reason, it's a DS community thing to try to drag other band members down in an attempt to increase the distance between the 'GeNiUs' who sings and plays guitar. I wish people would respect and honor the band members for their contribution to the music we like to listen to, rather than pretend they don't have proper skills and were just passengers on the DS tour bus. Also, there's alot more to playing an instrument than just technical skills. I suspect Mark himself is a good example of just that. It's not like people are less skilled just because Mark decided not to use them anymore. That's not how it works.
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I'm sure it would be possible to make DS without MK's guitar sound a good experience, also"
Really?
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I always thought that if DS would had been a democracy, some David's and John's songs could had been on DS records, and some of them could had been hits as well, why? because having MK on command, some of those songs would had developed in a way that would had made them even better.
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My point is that songs performed by DS, written by David K, are just as good songs as most non-hits by MK. Sure, we can always discuss our opinions on the matter of Song A vs Song B, but having a bunch of diehard fans doing their best to place the "non-Masters" below "the Master" is... well... predictable and should be taken with more than a grain of salt.
I don't mind the idea that you hire some musicians for a tour/a record, that's an honest thing. But if you're in a band, you're in a band. Dire Straits was Dire Straits, not Mark Knopfler and Friends. Sure, some people are more important than others, but if Springsteen could find a way to keep the band going after Clarence Clemons died, I'm sure it would be possible to make DS without MK's guitar sound a good experience, also. It's easy to be pessimistic about that idea, but the fact is that nobody is irreplaceable at the end of the day. It's also about how the musicians work together - you can't just sum up the individual components of a team to get the total.We don't know how DS would be without Pick, David or John in the early days. Especially John or Pick. Sultans might not be a hit with a different lineup. It's more than just the twiddly bits at the end that makes it what it is. R&J is perhaps an even better example of good teamwork. If it was put on later records, I'm not sure we'd like the outcome, simply because the lineup changed (LOG is the exception, of course). After 1981, it was never the same again.
Respect is a nice word. This whole "Mark is God, the others are peasants and should be lucky they ever met him" thing is the exact opposite. For whatever reason, it's a DS community thing to try to drag other band members down in an attempt to increase the distance between the 'GeNiUs' who sings and plays guitar. I wish people would respect and honor the band members for their contribution to the music we like to listen to, rather than pretend they don't have proper skills and were just passengers on the DS tour bus. Also, there's alot more to playing an instrument than just technical skills. I suspect Mark himself is a good example of just that. It's not like people are less skilled just because Mark decided not to use them anymore. That's not how it works.
I think sometimes the group is a group, and sometimes a group is just an excuse for the leader to be less of a God and a GeNiUs... I still remember, again talking about Fleet Foxes here, when their leader stood on Times Square in New York around a giant billboard with a giant photo of him (and him only) and "New album from Fleet Foxes" written on it, as if it's just his pseudonym or something. I immediately thought that the same would've easily happened with MK back in the day. "The new album from Dire Straits" and Mark's photo on the giant billboard in New York. He could've easily been a solo artist from day 1, and probably be even less famous than now, as, say, Chris Rea who never had a band. The name is always going to be less famous than a brand (or band). Everybody knows McDonald's but a few know Ray Kroc. Everybody knows Dire Straits, but sang and played guitar in that band Marc who? This guy with a headband and a hard-to-pronounce sounds-like-german surname?
There are facts that are pretty clear to me: Dire Straits is a brand and Dire Straits as a band is either long gone or never even existed in the first place. Mark kept John in the band because he was and still is one of his BFFs, but more importantly, his bass playing suited Mark's music till the very end of the band. Once Mark needed a band with a more versatile bass player, guess what... He started changing even the bass players. Dire Straits were on a contract so Mark needed to continue under the Dire Straits moniker anyway. David left the band because he struggled with music becoming harder to play and because it wasn't democracy as he expected. Then Pick left... So it's difficult for me to call Dire Straits a band, it's just a brand.
I refuse to blindly call MK a genius and a God and get on with it, I love facts. Mark worked really hard on his craft and is capable of a genuinely genius level of songwriting and guitar playing. So what's the problem with calling things what they really are? His songs were clearly superior to other writer's songs in DS, not even talking about his songs being enough material for the band to keep going so they weren't in need of more songs like The Doors were. And now he gets away with everything because, as he says about himself, "I'm the guy who wrote the song" and "the singer is always right".
And if you think about Dire Straits or Mark Knopfler as a brand, I think it's fair that people around MK are given so few credits. Because after playing in Dire Straits, or playing with Mark Knopfler, or working for him, I think a lot of doors are going to open for you, and it's your decision to go in these doors or stay where you are. If you get to work with people like that, it's enough credit and honor on its own and nobody will ever take that from you. That's a power of a brand. Pick Withers, after playing in Dire Straits and with Bob Dylan could've ended up being a very famous drummer, but wanted to stay away from the spotlight and everybody respects this decision, same logic applies to every other musician who ever worked with MK.
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I always thought that if DS would had been a democracy, some David's and John's songs could had been on DS records, and some of them could had been hits as well, why? because having MK on command, some of those songs would had developed in a way that would had made them even better.
Cannot agree more.
Some of Johns songs are pretty OK, and as jbaent says, imagine if some were being overhauled by MK. Hmmm :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdrvmuAeJK4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdrvmuAeJK4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQYwl3gSUwk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQYwl3gSUwk)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSrS1Y7kVTQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSrS1Y7kVTQ)
And a little further fetched John with Greg Pearle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h9QNFqxDa0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h9QNFqxDa0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpB1-q4zNaw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpB1-q4zNaw)
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This is a really good question. I see it like this. If you take it from post BIA I think you would have seen much more formulaic music, less experimental, OES would have been a much different album had it had songwriting influences from John, Guy, and Alan. We also may have seen more music after this perhaps even without mark, but retreading old ground. Alan certainly loved the success...
The real question is, if DS had been a democracy would they ever have been successful in the first place? I know DK is on record as saying that he saw the straits much more as a cult band with a much smaller following. I think they got to the top because of the drive of MK, damage management, and the few individuals that could keep up....
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This is a really good question. I see it like this. If you take it from post BIA I think you would have seen much more formulaic music, less experimental, OES would have been a much different album had it had songwriting influences from John, Guy, and Alan. We also may have seen more music after this perhaps even without mark, but retreading old ground. Alan certainly loved the success...
The real question is, if DS had been a democracy would they ever have been successful in the first place? I know DK is on record as saying that he saw the straits much more as a cult band with a much smaller following. I think they got to the top because of the drive of MK, damage management, and the few individuals that could keep up....
Yes, DS being a democracy they would had been successful anyway, because the MK hits would had been on the records anyway. In DS records not all the songs are hits, there are always weakest songs in the sense of produce singles that would be aired on radio, which was what made bands successful in the 80's and 90's. Despite having two or three David or John songs, "Brothers in arms" would had "MFN", "WOL" or "BIA" on it. Maybe not "One World", or maybe not "The man's too strong", but what made that record highly successful would had been there anyway.
I would say even more, maybe a David, John or even Alan songs would had been hits arranged by the whole band, with MK guitar leading the track.
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This is a really good question. I see it like this. If you take it from post BIA I think you would have seen much more formulaic music, less experimental, OES would have been a much different album had it had songwriting influences from John, Guy, and Alan. We also may have seen more music after this perhaps even without mark, but retreading old ground. Alan certainly loved the success...
The real question is, if DS had been a democracy would they ever have been successful in the first place? I know DK is on record as saying that he saw the straits much more as a cult band with a much smaller following. I think they got to the top because of the drive of MK, damage management, and the few individuals that could keep up....
Yes, DS being a democracy they would had been successful anyway, because the MK hits would had been on the records anyway. In DS records not all the songs are hits, there are always weakest songs in the sense of produce singles that would be aired on radio, which was what made bands successful in the 80's and 90's. Despite having two or three David or John songs, "Brothers in arms" would had "MFN", "WOL" or "BIA" on it. Maybe not "One World", or maybe not "The man's too strong", but what made that record highly successful would had been there anyway.
I would say even more, maybe a David, John or even Alan songs would had been hits arranged by the whole band, with MK guitar leading the track.
WOL would have been the first to go from BIA.It was almost an afterthought and if more songs weren't required,because John and Dave had to have some of their songs on BIA,it might not even have been written.
There is no sign that John or Dave were ready to write "proper" songs back in 77.If they were then the story of DS might be different.
It is fairly obvious the songs would have been inferior,perhaps vastly,to what appeared on the albums so it is a good job they weren't ready.
I'm extremely happy none of the DS albums were watered down and that we managed to get 6 studio albums from them.
The world is shitty enough at the moment without trying to rewrite history and alter some of my favourite ever albums.
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This is a really good question. I see it like this. If you take it from post BIA I think you would have seen much more formulaic music, less experimental, OES would have been a much different album had it had songwriting influences from John, Guy, and Alan. We also may have seen more music after this perhaps even without mark, but retreading old ground. Alan certainly loved the success...
The real question is, if DS had been a democracy would they ever have been successful in the first place? I know DK is on record as saying that he saw the straits much more as a cult band with a much smaller following. I think they got to the top because of the drive of MK, damage management, and the few individuals that could keep up....
Yes, DS being a democracy they would had been successful anyway, because the MK hits would had been on the records anyway. In DS records not all the songs are hits, there are always weakest songs in the sense of produce singles that would be aired on radio, which was what made bands successful in the 80's and 90's. Despite having two or three David or John songs, "Brothers in arms" would had "MFN", "WOL" or "BIA" on it. Maybe not "One World", or maybe not "The man's too strong", but what made that record highly successful would had been there anyway.
I would say even more, maybe a David, John or even Alan songs would had been hits arranged by the whole band, with MK guitar leading the track.
WOL would have been the first to go from BIA.It was almost an afterthought and if more songs weren't required,because John and Dave had to have some of their songs on BIA,it might not even have been written.
There is no sign that John or Dave were ready to write "proper" songs back in 77.If they were then the story of DS might be different.
It is fairly obvious the songs would have been inferior,perhaps vastly,to what appeared on the albums so it is a good job they weren't ready.
I'm extremely happy none of the DS albums were watered down and that we managed to get 6 studio albums from them.
The world is shitty enough at the moment without trying to rewrite history and alter some of my favourite ever albums.
You did read the hyperthetical part? No one is trying to alter anything. This is a what if discussion.
My point really, regardless of songs is that DS wouldn't have made it as a democracy. As the great man himself said, 'you've got to really want to do it'. I don't think that DK or Pick really wanted it at the level Mark did. They would have been happier with less success, smaller venues, and more musical freedom.
Thoughts?
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>You did read the hyperthetical part?
Yes I did but I completely disagree that John and Dave songs would have made little difference to the success of DS.
Both Pick and Dave have said that they were much happier playing pubs and small venues so were happy with the Hope and Anchor while both Mark and John wanted,perhaps needed,Wembley Stadium and the enormous shows-Ed certainly did :)
Most of the band were great at being backing guys for Mark but couldn't cut it on their own.There is nothing wrong with that and they were part of something magical which is better than most can say.
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>You did read the hyperthetical part?
Yes I did but I completely disagree that John and Dave songs would have made little difference to the success of DS.
Both Pick and Dave have said that they were much happier playing pubs and small venues so were happy with the Hope and Anchor while both Mark and John wanted,perhaps needed,Wembley Stadium and the enormous shows-Ed certainly did :)
Most of the band were great at being backing guys for Mark but couldn't cut it on their own.There is nothing wrong with that and they were part of something magical which is better than most can say.
Exactly, being a musician is not that bad at all. Cliff Richard is a great frontman, but in his backing band, only Hank Marvin could play guitar like THAT!
My thinking is that they all [Dire Straits] wanted to be successful and be famous (who wouldn't?). Though Mark always says fame is a bad thing, however, I think John in his book clearly stated that they really wanted it. If you don't want it, you may never achieve it. They also never knew what will be the level of this success and fame, nobody knows. And it turned out to be so huge that it tore down the whole group, and made MK into the legend and guitar hero we all know and love.
Imagine Mark would be less of a songwriter or a guitar player than we know. Imagine his songwriting and playing would be on the level of his singing. He would struggle to fill the albums, they would need to resort to adding songs from David, John, and whoever else. Mark would have no choice but to agree to the democratic state in the band. And chances are this band would be an obscure band that few people know and follow.
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Most of the band were great at being backing guys for Mark but couldn't cut it on their own.There is nothing wrong with that and they were part of something magical which is better than most can say.
You could do the same argument against Mark as you use against the band guys here, if you look at the "modern" MK. The fact that he mostly played smaller venues (as opposed to stadium gigs during summer, like DS used to), is it because he "couldn't cut it any more" or is it because he didn't want to? If it's the latter, you should consider the fact that not everyone needs to be superstars to be perfectly happy with what they achieve.
"Mark could cut it if he wanted to, but the band guys weren't good enough" would sound very fanboy-ish to my ears.
I think most of us agree that Pick in particular did an excellent job back in the early years.
"After four successful albums culminating in ‘Telegraph Road’ (1982), Pick feared that the band were moving more into Stadium Rock territory, an accurate prediction on his part. Not wanting to fall into a hedonistic existence where everyone around you tells you how ‘great’ you are until you actually start believing it, Pick gracefully bowed out of the band, leaving an opening that Terry Williams (another Rockfield studios stalwart) would fill – at least for live work." - this sounds... familiar, no?
Source: https://thedrumdoctor.net/pick-withers-a-road-well-travelled-a-drumdoctor-interview
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MK started off small in 96 but in recent years was playing large venues, similar sizes to peers such as Clapton etc. I saw both McCartney and Knopfler in the same venue within 6 months.
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I have a very hard time imagining such a scenario because DS was always only a vehicle for Mark's songs. The only possible way to imagine such a situation would be to look at David and John's solo songs and ask ourselves if they are as good as Mark's. The answer is no, of course.
So, if DS had been a democracy it would have never existed in the first place.
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To put the premise more simply, with a concrete example: In 2001, David Knopfler released Wishbones and in 2002 MK released Ragpickers Dream. If instead we got a 2002 Dire Straits album with all members bringing songs to the table, I think King Of Ashes, Means Of Survival and If God Could Make The Angels from DK have every chance of making the album instead of Quality Shoe, Daddy's Gone To Knoxville and Old Pigweed - particularly with the added influence of MK.
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To put the premise more simply, with a concrete example: In 2001, David Knopfler released Wishbones and in 2002 MK released Ragpickers Dream. If instead we got a 2002 Dire Straits album with all members bringing songs to the table, I think King Of Ashes, Means Of Survival and If God Could Make The Angels from DK have every chance of making the album instead of Quality Shoe, Daddy's Gone To Knoxville and Old Pigweed - particularly with the added influence of MK.
I haven't heard the DK songs you mention but the MK songs are great! All of this comes down to personal preference - I would for example make a case for Coyote being weaker than any of those three...
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To put the premise more simply, with a concrete example: In 2001, David Knopfler released Wishbones and in 2002 MK released Ragpickers Dream. If instead we got a 2002 Dire Straits album with all members bringing songs to the table, I think King Of Ashes, Means Of Survival and If God Could Make The Angels from DK have every chance of making the album instead of Quality Shoe, Daddy's Gone To Knoxville and Old Pigweed - particularly with the added influence of MK.
I haven't heard the DK songs you mention but the MK songs are great! All of this comes down to personal preference - I would for example make a case for Coyote being weaker than any of those three...
I think Coyote suffers from the same type of problem as Monteleone. You need to know the story of writing this song because of MK's kids watching cartoons, and you need to know the cartoon itself, so it's again too much to ask from an average listener. It's not an album filler by any means.
Just listened to these David's songs again, and none of them struck a chord with me, musically speaking. I think this is where personal preference really shines. I wonder if there are people who dislike Mark's music and love David's?
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To put the premise more simply, with a concrete example: In 2001, David Knopfler released Wishbones and in 2002 MK released Ragpickers Dream. If instead we got a 2002 Dire Straits album with all members bringing songs to the table, I think King Of Ashes, Means Of Survival and If God Could Make The Angels from DK have every chance of making the album instead of Quality Shoe, Daddy's Gone To Knoxville and Old Pigweed - particularly with the added influence of MK.
I haven't heard the DK songs you mention but the MK songs are great! All of this comes down to personal preference - I would for example make a case for Coyote being weaker than any of those three...
I think Coyote suffers from the same type of problem as Monteleone. You need to know the story of writing this song because of MK's kids watching cartoons, and you need to know the cartoon itself, so it's again too much to ask from an average listener. It's not an album filler by any means.
Just listened to these David's songs again, and none of them struck a chord with me, musically speaking. I think this is where personal preference really shines. I wonder if there are people who dislike Mark's music and love David's?
I love both in a separated way.
However, any David song would be very different if MK is involved with the arrangements, so we can't really judge if David songs would had been good for DS as they were arranged by David for a David record.
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"I think Coyote suffers from the same type of problem as Monteleone. You need to know the story of writing this song because of MK's kids watching cartoons, and you need to know the cartoon itself, so it's again too much to ask from an average listener. It's not an album filler by any means.
Exactly!
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"I wonder if there are people who dislike Mark's music and love David's?
It is impossible:)
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To put the premise more simply, with a concrete example: In 2001, David Knopfler released Wishbones and in 2002 MK released Ragpickers Dream. If instead we got a 2002 Dire Straits album with all members bringing songs to the table, I think King Of Ashes, Means Of Survival and If God Could Make The Angels from DK have every chance of making the album instead of Quality Shoe, Daddy's Gone To Knoxville and Old Pigweed - particularly with the added influence of MK.
I haven't heard the DK songs you mention but the MK songs are great! All of this comes down to personal preference - I would for example make a case for Coyote being weaker than any of those three...
I really loved "Coyote" live and it is one of my favourites from the GL tour and much better than the album version.
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To put the premise more simply, with a concrete example: In 2001, David Knopfler released Wishbones and in 2002 MK released Ragpickers Dream. If instead we got a 2002 Dire Straits album with all members bringing songs to the table, I think King Of Ashes, Means Of Survival and If God Could Make The Angels from DK have every chance of making the album instead of Quality Shoe, Daddy's Gone To Knoxville and Old Pigweed - particularly with the added influence of MK.
I personally think Mark has released many weak, silly, over-sentimental or self-indulgent songs during his solo career that Ed would rightly have told him to shelve during the earlier days.
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"I wonder if there are people who dislike Mark's music and love David's?
It is impossible:)
No, it's not impossible. I attended a DK concert a few years ago and the people behind me were die-hard DK fans. I could hear them comparing MK with DK unfavourably and I really had to restrain myself not to wade in and defend Mark! ;)
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"I wonder if there are people who dislike Mark's music and love David's?
It is impossible:)
No, it's not impossible. I attended a DK concert a few years ago and the people behind me were die-hard DK fans. I could hear them comparing MK with DK unfavourably and I really had to restrain myself not to wade in and defend Mark! ;)
That's unexpected ;D So it's safe to say there are even DK fans who are not even aware that MK exists. Though I don't know the planet they are coming from...
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"I wonder if there are people who dislike Mark's music and love David's?
It is impossible:)
No, it's not impossible. I attended a DK concert a few years ago and the people behind me were die-hard DK fans. I could hear them comparing MK with DK unfavourably and I really had to restrain myself not to wade in and defend Mark! ;)
That's unexpected ;D So it's safe to say there are even DK fans who are not even aware that MK exists. Though I don't know the planet they are coming from...
This is a very good comment:)
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"I wonder if there are people who dislike Mark's music and love David's?
It is impossible:)
No, it's not impossible. I attended a DK concert a few years ago and the people behind me were die-hard DK fans. I could hear them comparing MK with DK unfavourably and I really had to restrain myself not to wade in and defend Mark! ;)
They were probably DS fans from the beginning and blame Mark for the split, burned the DS records when the split happened and moved to follow DK! 😂
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"I wonder if there are people who dislike Mark's music and love David's?
It is impossible:)
No, it's not impossible. I attended a DK concert a few years ago and the people behind me were die-hard DK fans. I could hear them comparing MK with DK unfavourably and I really had to restrain myself not to wade in and defend Mark! ;)
They were probably DS fans from the beginning and blame Mark for the split, burned the DS records when the split happened and moved to follow DK! 😂
You could be right!
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https://youtu.be/eXh7pTYb8jA (https://youtu.be/eXh7pTYb8jA)
Here we can an interesting video about David Knopfler's solo career. For me, it is clear that there are songs by David Knopfler and John Illsley that could be contained in a Dire Straits album and that could be a hit, after all, it would be the sum of all the elements of the band and would generate a result, a song like Easy Street from DK's Ship Of Dreams album could perfectly be on a Dire Straits album like OES, or one of the first two, Soul Kissing, Madonna's Daughter has everything to have been in Making Movies. Toe the Line by JI is a typical Dire Straits song, I can see Mark playing and singing these songs, it would have been amazing with Dire Straits sauce.
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I personally think Mark has released many weak, silly, over-sentimental or self-indulgent songs during his solo career that Ed would rightly have told him to shelve during the earlier days.
Where was Ed when My Parties made the cut?!
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I personally think Mark has released many weak, silly, over-sentimental or self-indulgent songs during his solo career that Ed would rightly have told him to shelve during the earlier days.
Where was Ed when My Parties made the cut?!
bro, i love my parties!!
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https://youtu.be/eXh7pTYb8jA (https://youtu.be/eXh7pTYb8jA)
Here we can an interesting video about David Knopfler's solo career. For me, it is clear that there are songs by David Knopfler and John Illsley that could be contained in a Dire Straits album and that could be a hit, after all, it would be the sum of all the elements of the band and would generate a result, a song like Easy Street from DK's Ship Of Dreams album could perfectly be on a Dire Straits album like OES, or one of the first two, Soul Kissing, Madonna's Daughter has everything to have been in Making Movies. Toe the Line by JI is a typical Dire Straits song, I can see Mark playing and singing these songs, it would have been amazing with Dire Straits sauce.
sorry Brunno but i do not agree.none of their combined works reaches the level of the weakest MK song
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I personally think Mark has released many weak, silly, over-sentimental or self-indulgent songs during his solo career that Ed would rightly have told him to shelve during the earlier days.
Where was Ed when My Parties made the cut?!
lol.
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Jerry Wexler on the left ?
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To me it became apparent even on the first album that when you listen to DS , you do so because you subscribe to MK's style of writing (which is 1 of a kind)
Sure some some songs are weaker than others but to me the reason for listening to DS or MK solo albums is to see what MK is creating at that point in time like a photograph. sometimes that's more guitar solos and sometimes it's lyrics about Quality Shoes etc.
I think MK wanted to do things his way, he wanted the freedom of creating what he wants to create. The DK and JI songs would never fit on an DS album in my opinion, even with Mark singing them , playing guitar on them , it elevates them but it's not what MK is creating at that particular time so it will never fit. Case and point to me is "What's the matter" a good song yes, and great guitar playing from mark on the live versions but no way does that come close to any of the songs on the first album, it's a different vibe completely.
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I personally think Mark has released many weak, silly, over-sentimental or self-indulgent songs during his solo career that Ed would rightly have told him to shelve during the earlier days.
Where was Ed when My Parties made the cut?!
I was kind of hoping that song would make it to the 2019 setlists.
"Boooyy, this punch is a trip, it's ok in my book.
Here, take a sip. Maybe a little heavy on the fruit?"
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To me it became apparent even on the first album that when you listen to DS , you do so because you subscribe to MK's style of writing (which is 1 of a kind)
Sure some some songs are weaker than others but to me the reason for listening to DS or MK solo albums is to see what MK is creating at that point in time like a photograph. sometimes that's more guitar solos and sometimes it's lyrics about Quality Shoes etc.
I think MK wanted to do things his way, he wanted the freedom of creating what he wants to create. The DK and JI songs would never fit on an DS album in my opinion, even with Mark singing them , playing guitar on them , it elevates them but it's not what MK is creating at that particular time so it will never fit. Case and point to me is "What's the matter" a good song yes, and great guitar playing from mark on the live versions but no way does that come close to any of the songs on the first album, it's a different vibe completely.
Yup. MK has "something else" when it comes to songwriting. Even his own brother, who looks like him (kinda), had the same parents and upbringing, listens to the same stuff, and yet doesn't come close to his own brother. That's, I think, a definition of talent. Same with Tommy and Phil Emmanuel — both are amazing guitarists, but Tommy has that extra something to be recognized as the world's best guitar player by many.
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I personally think Mark has released many weak, silly, over-sentimental or self-indulgent songs during his solo career that Ed would rightly have told him to shelve during the earlier days.
Where was Ed when My Parties made the cut?!
bro, i love my parties!!
Definitely a silly song.
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Jerry Wexler on the left ?
David Cameron and Bill Gates too.
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One thing that I have found very funny, is that there are people who take it to a competition level, as the central theme was at a competition level, this is ridiculous, Dire Straits only existed because of Mark Knopfler, this is a concrete fact, it is a concrete fact that the work of Mark Knopfler has much more prominence than that of any musician who was part of Dire Straits, but the central theme of this topic is something hypothetical, as the title indicates and in this context everything quoted will be subjective, anyone quoting that doesn't think a song by DK or JI could be on a DS album is as subjective as thinking that it could, however, there is something more concrete for those who like I realize that it would be possible, because there are Whats The Matter Baby, Bernadette that were played live with the original lineup and can be evaluated by all of us and without a doubt that in both they have the "sauce" of MK, his guitar solos and that the same formula was used the musical and that it could be done in any other song like Easy Street, Soul Kissing, Madonna's Daughter, Toe The Line... What would matter is that it would have the signature and style that Mark Knopfler has in everything that is involved.
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If DS will continue, maybe without MK, it will be like: Status Quo without Rick, Bee Gees without the Twins, AC-DC without Angus, or ZZ Top without Dusty Hill and so on and so on. If it is the case, those other bands are buried in my opinion. It is not the same, it is old wine, new bottled.
To be honest, i´m of the opinion it doesn´t work steadily, but it is a present wish in our minds in our roles as DS-MK-fans.
Maybe, some former DS-members will be involded in some new musical-projects, by themselves or maybe with MK, too, but new recordings as a real re-united band ??? That is an impossible dream. :think
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If DS will continue, maybe without MK, it will be like: Status Quo without Rick, Bee Gees without the Twins, AC-DC without Angus, or ZZ Top without Dusty Hill and so on and so on. If it is the case, those other bands are buried in my opinion. It is not the same, it is old wine, new bottled.
To be honest, i´m of the opinion it doesn´t work steadily, but it is a present wish in our minds in our roles as DS-MK-fans.
Maybe, some former DS-members will be involded in some new musical-projects, by themselves or maybe with MK, too, but new recordings as a real re-united band ??? That is an impossible dream. :think
DS without Mark? Isn't that DS Legacy with Alan, Phil, Jack, Mel and Danny. A lot of members there to be fair. Interesting if you actually take a moment to think about it that that's basically what DSL is, minus JI and Mark of course. However without Mark it is nothing.
I also have to add I love to see Mark and John playing together and nothing beats that for me. Glenn has always been a statement to say "this is not DS" for me.
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Exactly! It was possible in Genesis or Pink Floyd not in DS.
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Not to be misunderstood. :think
I never mentioned, that the DS Bandmembers are not adäquate musicians, they are, of course. Some of them make their own thing, like John, Alan with his new Solo-record, Richard or Guy. All that stuff is well accepted by myself, no question.
A dream for us all will be the following scenario: MK calls all known former DS-bandmembers for making a new record, re-united as DIRE STRAITS. That will be amazing, but i think it will be phantasy. If some of the former DS-bandmates come together for their own musical work, it will be fine, too. It is still a creative process,they are living for, anyway.
The picture in our minds, to see MK in the future in the studio or on stage with Pick, with John, with David, or additionally with Terry, with Guy and Alan (the keyboard-twins), with Danny, with Phil, with Hal, with Jack and so on, and so on, is pretty fine; but is it possible to be real, no fictional ?? That is the question, and my thoughts in this thread.
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If DS will continue, maybe without MK, it will be like: Status Quo without Rick, Bee Gees without the Twins, AC-DC without Angus, or ZZ Top without Dusty Hill and so on and so on.
imho, Dusty is not the best exemple to compare with MK. you should have said ZZ top without Billy instead
even if I admit that Dusty had a huge importance in ZZ top's sound (notably his vocals parts), I wouldn't say he was the main musical element in the band
same thing with Rick in status quo. ok he was a big part of the band, but Rossi is largely equal imho
MK in DS ?, well, you cant' compare with a musician in another band...
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OK, for a much better understanding. My opinion only:
For me, Status Quo is not more Status Quo, because Rick is no more available. It is the same procedure with Bee Gees without the Twin-Brothers Robin and Maurice, ZZ-TOP without Dusty, AC-DC without Angus or other bands, only to illustrate my way of thinking. It was not my aim to compare Dire Straits with other musical bands, but if some important characters, musicians, leading characters of bands, had left the band-construction, the whole think does not work anymore in a perfect way, or it is not more authentic as it was in the past.
OK, Francis Rossi of Status Quo is on the road again, but to me it is no real Status Quo anymore. The same thing, if Billy Gibbons is touring in the future under the name of ZZ-Top or AC-DC is touring without Angus. That is not the same. But it is my personal opinion, maybe i´m completely wrong, who know´s.
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imho, Dusty is not the best exemple to compare with MK.
True, we are both top bald guitarists, but MK has a much bigger beer belly than me.
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imho, Dusty is not the best exemple to compare with MK.
True, we are both top bald guitarists, but MK has a much bigger beer belly than me.
:lol :lol
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imho, Dusty is not the best exemple to compare with MK.
True, we are both top bald guitarists, but MK has a much bigger beer belly than me.
:lol :lol
Always handy for resting that heavy Gibson les Paul on though 😉
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imho, Dusty is not the best exemple to compare with MK.
True, we are both top bald guitarists, but MK has a much bigger beer belly than me.
:thumbsup :thumbsup :lol :lol
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OK, for a much better understanding. My opinion only:
For me, Status Quo is not more Status Quo, because Rick is no more available. It is the same procedure with Bee Gees without the Twin-Brothers Robin and Maurice, ZZ-TOP without Dusty, AC-DC without Angus or other bands, only to illustrate my way of thinking. It was not my aim to compare Dire Straits with other musical bands, but if some important characters, musicians, leading characters of bands, had left the band-construction, the whole think does not work anymore in a perfect way, or it is not more authentic as it was in the past.
OK, Francis Rossi of Status Quo is on the road again, but to me it is no real Status Quo anymore. The same thing, if Billy Gibbons is touring in the future under the name of ZZ-Top or AC-DC is touring without Angus. That is not the same. But it is my personal opinion, maybe i´m completely wrong, who know´s.
Yes I see your point. But I think that Rick in Status Quo is not the same thing that Mark in DS
Mars IS Dire Straits obviously. Rick Wasn't Status Quo on his own
that's a huge difference for me. OK, Angus, Rick or Dusty are/were a big part of their band, but Mark is the band on his own imho. That's not the same thing.
Thta's why I think that Status Quo without Rick for example is closer to the original Status Quo than DS without Mark
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A more relevant comparison would be Status Quo without Francis Rossi or ZZ Top without Billy Gibbons IMO...
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A more relevant comparison would be Status Quo without Francis Rossi or ZZ Top without Billy Gibbons IMO...
Or Chris Rea without Chris Rea.
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A more relevant comparison would be Status Quo without Francis Rossi or ZZ Top without Billy Gibbons IMO...
exactly :thumbsup
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The two "other" guys out of The Jam toured as From The Jam, and Big Country kept going after Stuart Adamson died.
Genesis played stadiums without Phil Collins didn't they?
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The two "other" guys out of The Jam toured as From The Jam, and Big Country kept going after Stuart Adamson died.
Genesis played stadiums without Phil Collins didn't they?
No, just Arenas, and they were not successful so they stopped.