A Mark In Time
Mark Knopfler Discussion => Mark Knopfler Discussion Forum => Topic started by: dustyvalentino on March 31, 2023, 10:43:00 AM
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Now, I have never been a fan of On The Night. Even as a 14 year old kid I was disappointed. I was really excited for its release and bought the CD and VHS on day one but it fell flat. Even at that age I could tell something was off with the audio - it sounded cheesy, overprocessed and in no way "live" when compared to the Ticket To Heaven bootleg CD I had of the Basel show,
At that time I had no idea it had been cut together from different shows. Watching the other night it struck me that the video editing is ridiculously bad - by which I mean that when watching Calling Elvis it's clearly obvious which shots are from the different shows, some of them are way darker than the others.
Thoughts?
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I have planned to write a chronicle for its 30th anniversary release on may 10th
but I can already say that I have the same thoughts as you :)
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I think Brunno Nunes did quite a good job with this:
http://universodirestraits.blogspot.com/2021/06/calling-elvis-on-night-performance.html
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Yes, I agree with you, dusty, about On The Night video. I always found it over-produced/over-processed and much preferred the version I recorded from Channel 4 on Christmas Eve 1992. I almost wore out that recording, but when I bought OTN I was really disappointed and thought my original Basel recording was much more honest. Since then I found the more complete version from Basel.
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I think Brunno Nunes did quite a good job with this:
http://universodirestraits.blogspot.com/2021/06/calling-elvis-on-night-performance.html
Yes, great job, thanks for sharing.
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I dunno, guys. I bought the On The Night DVD when I was 15, and it simply BLEW MY MIND. I played it so much that I practically destroyed the poor thing, to the point it won't play anymore. I loved everything about it. Most importantly, I loved the music and the precision of how well it was played by all musicians.
It's called "On The Night", it's not "Live In Rotterdam" or "Live In Nîmes" or something, so the fact of it being a compilation begins even with the title. I knew it was a compilation because it was quite obvious when they show the audience that it was either a small amphitheatre or whatever, or a big rear stadium.
I still love it, and I still think it's one of the best DVDs from any tour in history, despite missing Telegraph and Sultans, despite all its flaws. I might be biased since I fell in love with it at a such young age, but looking past its flaws and the history of MK and the band at the time, I see a perfectly executed "postcard" of Dire Straits' last tour, which it intended to be in the first place.
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I always compared this video with Alchemy, which has also its own tricks but in comparation, Alchemy feels like a real live thing, OTN is like they are miming to soundboard edited recordings.
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I always compared this video with Alchemy, which has also its own tricks but in comparation, Alchemy feels like a real live thing, OTN is like they are miming to soundboard edited recordings.
Now, speaking of editing, I don't know if that's a solid argument against this record. As someone who watches this thing under the microscope for my lessons, I can tell that what's showing in the video is exactly what's being played, so nobody's cheating there. I think the whole "overproduced" feel comes purely from the fact it was such a large-scale circus operation with 3 months of rehearsals, it's overproduced by definition.
It was just so perfectly executed to the point of falling into the uncanny valley when it starts to sound "too perfect". But to me, all shows from this tour were like this, they all were "too perfect", "cheesy" and polished, but isn't this why we love Mark's music? For how polished it is? In the good sense of the word of course.
Alchemy was the opposite when MK deliberately tried to make a live album, so it shows. For On The Night, it wasn't a live album, but a postcard. Postcards are always overproduced, cheesy and nothing like the real thing. But it won't stop us from using them!
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I dunno, guys. I bought the On The Night DVD when I was 15, and it simply BLEW MY MIND. I played it so much that I practically destroyed the poor thing, to the point it won't play anymore. I loved everything about it. Most importantly, I loved the music and the precision of how well it was played by all musicians.
It's called "On The Night", it's not "Live In Rotterdam" or "Live In Nîmes" or something, so the fact of it being a compilation begins even with the title. I knew it was a compilation because it was quite obvious when they show the audience that it was either a small amphitheatre or whatever, or a big rear stadium.
I still love it, and I still think it's one of the best DVDs from any tour in history, despite missing Telegraph and Sultans, despite all its flaws. I might be biased since I fell in love with it at a such young age, but looking past its flaws and the history of MK and the band at the time, I see a perfectly executed "postcard" of Dire Straits' last tour, which it intended to be in the first place.
Yes, I agree with you :)
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I always compared this video with Alchemy, which has also its own tricks but in comparation, Alchemy feels like a real live thing, OTN is like they are miming to soundboard edited recordings.
Now, speaking of editing, I don't know if that's a solid argument against this record. As someone who watches this thing under the microscope for my lessons, I can tell that what's showing in the video is exactly what's being played, so nobody's cheating there. I think the whole "overproduced" feel comes purely from the fact it was such a large-scale circus operation with 3 months of rehearsals, it's overproduced by definition.
It was just so perfectly executed to the point of falling into the uncanny valley when it starts to sound "too perfect". But to me, all shows from this tour were like this, they all were "too perfect", "cheesy" and polished, but isn't this why we love Mark's music? For how polished it is? In the good sense of the word of course.
Alchemy was the opposite when MK deliberately tried to make a live album, so it shows. For On The Night, it wasn't a live album, but a postcard. Postcards are always overproduced, cheesy and nothing like the real thing. But it won't stop us from using them!
:thumbsup
For many years I did not know that the concert was edited. But that doesn't ruin my impression. I have a special fondness to On The Night.
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Well Quizzy, that's not what I want from a live record. The fact that the Basel or Nimes broadcasts are better as live postcards says it all for me.
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Well Quizzy, that's not what I want from a live record. The fact that the Basel or Nimes broadcasts are better as live postcards says it all for me.
Agreed. Perception is an interesting thing. Quizzy, if you had seen Basel before as some of us had then you might not have been blown away by On The Night. The playing is still as good (they are all recorded within weeks of each other) but it genuinely "feels" like a live recording (because it was!) in the same way that Alchemy does.
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Well Quizzy, that's not what I want from a live record. The fact that the Basel or Nimes broadcasts are better as live postcards says it all for me.
Agreed. Perception is an interesting thing. Quizzy, if you had seen Basel before as some of us had then you might not have been blown away by On The Night. The playing is still as good (they are all recorded within weeks of each other) but it genuinely "feels" like a live recording (because it was!) in the same way that Alchemy does.
To my mind, no live recording can match the feeling you get on a live show, so we can go as far as saying that no bootleg, live album or broadcast can recreate the real deal, which is probably true. The real live show is like a rainbow, which is individual for each observer. This "unedited" bootleg or broadcast is just slightly better at capturing this unabridged feeling, but it won't change the music itself, it's only about the feeling, and small amounts of it. Just like Dusty said.
A live album, or any recording, is something a microphone hears, or mixing board hear, or sound engineers hear. On a live show you stay on one point, listen to the band (or speakers for that matter) from one point, and watch it from the same angle. So if you record it from a single camera and single stereo binaural microphone with no edits, that will be the closest to a live show. So for the most part every live DVD is more like a movie. In a movie, you're not seeing events as it's happening, you see them how you would REMEMBER them. And by this definition, I think any live album or bootleg works.
So to me personally, there's no difference between Basel, On The Night or any other bootleg, they all work should you look at them with the right attitude. On The Night is a movie about Dire Straits' last tour, it's not a live album by any means. It's like Titanic movie is not a documentary on the ship's fate, it's an attempt of recreating how one would remember the events. Some like it to be true to life (see "Titanic Sinks Real Time" videos on YouTube), some like it to be cheesy, some like both. I'm from the latter group.
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I agree with Pavel. To me, Basel, Nimes or any show of the 91-92 tour sounds the same : ultra-polished, far too much reharsed, no improvisation at all (maybe few shows at the start of the tour had a little bit this flavour of "improvisation")
personnally, I don't find any diffrence between Basel broadcast or On the night : it's the same overproduced music
I was never found of this last tour. and any live recordings, being official release or TV broacast are the same for me.
I fell in love with Dire Straits by listening BIA and Alchemy. So I had the same impression Pavel had with OTN when I saw the Alchemy video for the first time.
Of course I am aware that our impressions are linked to our personnal life. It's all subjective.
But I will always far prefer Alchemy over OTN
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Although it's not the reason I started this thread, the main difference between Basel and OTN is in the sound.
Without even taking into account the fact that solos etc are seemingly dropped in from multiple recordings or possibly rerecorded altogether, there are choices made in production, like reverbs etc. MK's vocals just don't sound "live" on OTN because of the way they have been processed.
I'd rather not have the cheese personally. You can literally visualise someone pressing the fader up on the crowd noise when the percussion/drum duel starts on Calling Elvis and its cheesy as hell.
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I agree with Pavel. To me, Basel, Nimes or any show of the 91-92 tour sounds the same : ultra-polished, far too much reharsed, no improvisation at all (maybe few shows at the start of the tour had a little bit this flavour of "improvisation")
personnally, I don't find any diffrence between Basel broadcast or On the night : it's the same overproduced music
I was never found of this last tour. and any live recordings, being official release or TV broacast are the same for me.
I fell in love with Dire Straits by listening BIA and Alchemy. So I had the same impression Pavel had with OTN when I saw the Alchemy video for the first time.
Of course I am aware that our impressions are linked to our personnal life. It's all subjective.
But I will always far prefer Alchemy over OTN
To me there’s more improvisation to MK’s playing on some tracks on OES tour compared to LOG tour which was basically composed through. Sure, the energy was at it’s peak during LOG tour and has dropped every tour since then.
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Although it's not the reason I started this thread, the main difference between Basel and OTN is in the sound.
Without even taking into account the fact that solos etc are seemingly dropped in from multiple recordings or possibly rerecorded altogether, there are choices made in production, like reverbs etc. MK's vocals just don't sound "live" on OTN because of the way they have been processed.
I'd rather not have the cheese personally. You can literally visualise someone pressing the fader up on the crowd noise when the percussion/drum duel starts on Calling Elvis and its cheesy as hell.
Interesting. I listened to Calling Elvis again and would never even think about it. But why it's cheese? Any crowd would go nuts during a drums duel like this, so they genuinely recreated this, I guess. It's not suspicious at all! And I also can't hear too much of vocals enhancements as well, apart from obvious delays, etc., but I believe they were well rehearsed and added right away, why bother with it in the post? It's much easier to do it live, given the scale of this tour.
Overall you can't say that On The Night is ridiculously bad as there's nothing ridiculous or bad there. Yes, including the clothes! :lol
I'm not a fanboy, I just probably have a higher pain threshold than Dusty when it comes to enjoying live DVDs and letting more things pass until I consider something really bad. I'm not even against overdubbing as long as it adds to the experience, and does not subtract. And we can't possibly know where something was added or not, I think that any of your favourite live recordings could be altered somewhere down the line because we're all humans and make mistakes.
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Although it's not the reason I started this thread, the main difference between Basel and OTN is in the sound.
Without even taking into account the fact that solos etc are seemingly dropped in from multiple recordings or possibly rerecorded altogether, there are choices made in production, like reverbs etc. MK's vocals just don't sound "live" on OTN because of the way they have been processed.
I'd rather not have the cheese personally. You can literally visualise someone pressing the fader up on the crowd noise when the percussion/drum duel starts on Calling Elvis and its cheesy as hell.
Interesting. I listened to Calling Elvis again and would never even think about it. But why it's cheese? Any crowd would go nuts during a drums duel like this, so they genuinely recreated this, I guess. It's not suspicious at all! And I also can't hear too much of vocals enhancements as well, apart from obvious delays, etc., but I believe they were well rehearsed and added right away, why bother with it in the post? It's much easier to do it live, given the scale of this tour.
Overall you can't say that On The Night is ridiculously bad as there's nothing ridiculous or bad there. Yes, including the clothes! :lol
I'm not a fanboy, I just probably have a higher pain threshold than Dusty when it comes to enjoying live DVDs and letting more things pass until I consider something really bad. I'm not even against overdubbing as long as it adds to the experience, and does not subtract. And we can't possibly know where something was added or not, I think that any of your favourite live recordings could be altered somewhere down the line because we're all humans and make mistakes.
Hey, it's all just opinion.
I don't believe the crowd goes nuts at the drum bit at other shows. I just checked Basel and it doesn't happen there for example. Drum solos are usually pretty pointless and not interesting. Danny technically plays well but musically in my opinion it's a waste of time, especially with Chris' crashy bashy cymbals over the top of it.
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Overall you can't say that On The Night is ridiculously bad as there's nothing ridiculous or bad there.
I can and I did! The clothes are fine but MK's hair was ridiculous as well by this stage.
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I agree with Pavel. To me, Basel, Nimes or any show of the 91-92 tour sounds the same : ultra-polished, far too much reharsed, no improvisation at all (maybe few shows at the start of the tour had a little bit this flavour of "improvisation")
personnally, I don't find any diffrence between Basel broadcast or On the night : it's the same overproduced music
I was never found of this last tour. and any live recordings, being official release or TV broacast are the same for me.
I fell in love with Dire Straits by listening BIA and Alchemy. So I had the same impression Pavel had with OTN when I saw the Alchemy video for the first time.
Of course I am aware that our impressions are linked to our personnal life. It's all subjective.
But I will always far prefer Alchemy over OTN
To me there’s more improvisation to MK’s playing on some tracks on OES tour compared to LOG tour which was basically composed through. Sure, the energy was at it’s peak during LOG tour and has dropped every tour since then.
Mark's improvising was always top-notch and still is, all the way from day one to today. He's one of those guys about whom people usually say "he never plays something the same way twice", but he literally never plays something twice. You can download 20 versions of the same song and they all will be different (yes, I tried it). Mark's always improvising, and it's one of my favourite parts about his playing.
And improvisation is nothing but playing around patterns and sounds you've learned previously, so there's no such thing as true, genuine improvisation, i.e. playing from scratch, so the argument that Mark pre-learned every solo is not especially valid. You learn and play things to death in order to improvise, it's how it works!
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When OTN dvd and cd were released, I've had watched and listened Basel and Nimes videos and audios, and also other soundboards from the OES tour and when OTN got released I remember thinking "this is a joke" so I totally agree with Dusty about OTN being ridiculously bad.
Anytime I want to listen a live sbd from that tour I never ever listen to OTN, never, unless I'm out of home and in Amazon music OTN is the only one available. I can't stand OTN. It's over produced like it would had been recorded in a studio instead in a live show. Basel and Nimes sound like a live show really, OTN is like a studio record with claps mixed.
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I agree with Pavel. To me, Basel, Nimes or any show of the 91-92 tour sounds the same : ultra-polished, far too much reharsed, no improvisation at all (maybe few shows at the start of the tour had a little bit this flavour of "improvisation")
personnally, I don't find any diffrence between Basel broadcast or On the night : it's the same overproduced music
I was never found of this last tour. and any live recordings, being official release or TV broacast are the same for me.
I fell in love with Dire Straits by listening BIA and Alchemy. So I had the same impression Pavel had with OTN when I saw the Alchemy video for the first time.
Of course I am aware that our impressions are linked to our personnal life. It's all subjective.
But I will always far prefer Alchemy over OTN
To me there’s more improvisation to MK’s playing on some tracks on OES tour compared to LOG tour which was basically composed through. Sure, the energy was at it’s peak during LOG tour and has dropped every tour since then.
yes you are right. I know that LOG was all nights pretty the same. Even Hal Lindes said that Mark played the same solos at each show.
But he enjoyed playing that, and you can hear it.
in 91-92, he was bored to play, and I think you can hear it too
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Overall you can't say that On The Night is ridiculously bad as there's nothing ridiculous or bad there.
I can and I did! The clothes are fine but MK's hair was ridiculous as well by this stage.
But you are clearly in the minority here, and a very small minority, I must admit. I remember some people complaining about "questionable" 90s clothes choices on On The Night, but hair? No way! So you seem to have a gripe with this recording, and if you don't like something, you will find evidence to support your disapproval of it and vice versa. Just like I can find a million ways to defend it, you can find a million ways to destroy it. That's called personal preference, I suppose.
To me, ridiculous and bad means that something is obviously altered like a guy playing an instrument on video before or after its sound would come on, or overdubbing the sound that would not belong to the record like photoshopping something really badly, or straight up leaving major mistakes or noises where they shouldn't have been.
But all the rest is like make-up and women. I can't stand any excessive make-up, alteration to lips size or other body parts, etc. because to me it's always especially obvious and unnatural. Some people like it! But not me. And to me, On The Night is a fine girl with some decent make-up, it's definitely not a Barbie puppet as you're describing it.
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I agree with Pavel. To me, Basel, Nimes or any show of the 91-92 tour sounds the same : ultra-polished, far too much reharsed, no improvisation at all (maybe few shows at the start of the tour had a little bit this flavour of "improvisation")
personnally, I don't find any diffrence between Basel broadcast or On the night : it's the same overproduced music
I was never found of this last tour. and any live recordings, being official release or TV broacast are the same for me.
I fell in love with Dire Straits by listening BIA and Alchemy. So I had the same impression Pavel had with OTN when I saw the Alchemy video for the first time.
Of course I am aware that our impressions are linked to our personnal life. It's all subjective.
But I will always far prefer Alchemy over OTN
To me there’s more improvisation to MK’s playing on some tracks on OES tour compared to LOG tour which was basically composed through. Sure, the energy was at it’s peak during LOG tour and has dropped every tour since then.
Mark's improvising was always top-notch and still is, all the way from day one to today. He's one of those guys about whom people usually say "he never plays something the same way twice", but he literally never plays something twice. You can download 20 versions of the same song and they all will be different (yes, I tried it). Mark's always improvising, and it's one of my favourite parts about his playing.
And improvisation is nothing but playing around patterns and sounds you've learned previously, so there's no such thing as true, genuine improvisation, i.e. playing from scratch, so the argument that Mark pre-learned every solo is not especially valid. You learn and play things to death in order to improvise, it's how it works!
I disagree about Mark's ability in improvisation
to me Mark is a great melodist, a great composer in instrumental sections, but not very good in improvisation
For example, Sultans versions on last tours when he tried to "improvise" were not the best ones imho. his solos went to nowhere
his best instrumental parts in his career are the ones tha he composed imho, not the ones he improvised
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I disagree about Mark's ability in improvisation
to me Mark is a great melodist, a great composer in instrumental sections, but not very good in improvisation
For example, Sultans versions on last tours when he tried to "improvise" were not the best ones imho. his solos went to nowhere
his best instrumental parts in his career are the ones tha he composed imho, not the ones he improvised
It's unfair to talk about recent MK as he's clearly on the decline when it comes to playing live, soloing-wise or singing-wise, it's understandable due to ageing. But even then, each time he plays "Song For Sonny Liston" it's always different. Always! Every single time. And it always astonishes me.
He's as good at improvising as he's as good at singing. Meaning, there are thousands and thousands of people who do it better, but man, does it suit his songs!
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Overall you can't say that On The Night is ridiculously bad as there's nothing ridiculous or bad there.
I can and I did! The clothes are fine but MK's hair was ridiculous as well by this stage.
But you are clearly in the minority here, and a very small minority, I must admit. I remember some people complaining about "questionable" 90s clothes choices on On The Night, but hair? No way! So you seem to have a gripe with this recording, and if you don't like something, you will find evidence to support your disapproval of it and vice versa. Just like I can find a million ways to defend it, you can find a million ways to destroy it. That's called personal preference, I suppose.
To me, ridiculous and bad means that something is obviously altered like a guy playing an instrument on video before or after its sound would come on, or overdubbing the sound that would not belong to the record like photoshopping something really badly, or straight up leaving major mistakes or noises where they shouldn't have been.
But all the rest is like make-up and women. I can't stand any excessive make-up, alteration to lips size or other body parts, etc. because to me it's always especially obvious and unnatural. Some people like it! But not me. And to me, On The Night is a fine girl with some decent make-up, it's definitely not a Barbie puppet as you're describing it.
On The Night = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipstick_on_a_pig
PS I don't know if I'm in the minority - I haven't added up the people for and against on this thread but there are a few people who are disappointed overall by OTN. In terms of it being ridiculously bad, that comment was in relation to the video editing. The discussion has widened to encompass the flaws in the audio. I wouldn't say the audio is ridiculously bad but it's certainly not good, and having numerous soundboard bootlegs available from the same run of shows to directly compare to doesn't do it any favours.
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"MK's hair in this era in no way looks ridiculous"
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52783470991_39b7be3245_m.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oqi5YF)10AB10DC-E130-4161-B12F-C4DD8F82403F (https://flic.kr/p/2oqi5YF) by Dusty Valentino (https://www.flickr.com/photos/190235235@N02/), on Flickr
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I don't actively dislike OTN, but I'd much rather see a full show with some flaws than what we actually got in the end.
I'll give Mark some points for improvisations here and there, regardless of which tour we're talking about, but I've never had the feeling he has played for the audience. It's more like "this is my job, it's what I do"-standard set - on to the next town. So, I end up listening to the first show in Dublin more often than most others, because it actually has that rare "we're playing for you guys tonight"-feel, with some rarities in the setlist.
When even the speeches are the same and mostly just bollocks anyway (Walk of life and Heavy fuel come to mind), it's kind of a turn off. It's like saying "you're the cutest ever" to all the girls you meet.
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As for me, I think I was too young to pay attention to production etc.. when I first listened to On The Night, 14 or 15 I was, so it blew my mind. Plus the video was really the first I saw of any Dire Straits footage so double punch I'd say.
I loved you and your friend studio version and when I realised a live version existed I couldn't wait to get my hand on that cd. I must have played it a thousand times.
Years later I'm able to find flaws in this live CD but it will always be the record I used to put on random to wake me up back then before taking myself to school.
I remember clearly once of dreaming of playing Romeo sax intro on a guitar in front of a furious crowd, in fact the CD had started playing but hadn't woken me up and the music slid into my dream. One of the best dream I had.
So ridiculous I don't think so but I can see what you're thinking.
I just think MK was bored and it feels
Now I don't listen to it much I prefer listening to fan made versions on youtube or soundboard bootlegs, but it's not my favourite dire straits live period anyway, now I'm more into MK solo career.
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On The Night = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipstick_on_a_pig
PS I don't know if I'm in the minority - I haven't added up the people for and against on this thread but there are a few people who are disappointed overall by OTN. In terms of it being ridiculously bad, that comment was in relation to the video editing. The discussion has widened to encompass the flaws in the audio. I wouldn't say the audio is ridiculously bad but it's certainly not good, and having numerous soundboard bootlegs available from the same run of shows to directly compare to doesn't do it any favours.
Bad editing of live shows to me involves things like showing something different while the solo is being played. Like sometimes you can see videos where somebody's playing a smoking solo and they show a rhythm guitar player. Or having too many cuts, that's another example of bad editing. I can't see either of that in On The Night... If somebody's having a solo, they show it. Even for something like little saxophone lines in The Bug, they would show Chris White for a brief moment. Every important thing is on the video, so what is so "bad" about it apart from it being stitched from different venues?
Also, keep in mind the trouble they had to go through by actually stitching multiple shows together, I think it's not as easy as it sounds. After this thread, I think what's really ridiculously bad is that they could actually release Basel and other professionally recorded shows officially on their own. Imagine the whole Basel show released officially? It's still astonishing to me that the Basel show is merely a bootleg. So basically they can release all complete shows and earn tons of money. But they will not do it probably because all the masters are lost forever and chilling in a junkyard somewhere.
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It would be nice if they release a box with all the Rotterdam and Nimes recordings without touching the audio further than mixing, and I would even not mix it if the balance is ok, so we could have realistic recordings of that tour.
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It would be nice if they release a box with all the Rotterdam and Nimes recordings without touching the audio further than mixing, and I would even not mix it if the balance is ok, so we could have realistic recordings of that tour.
That's true, but I'd rather they do something about Brothers In Arms tour.
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It's not ridiculously bad, but it's also not perfect. It's an OK live album, I suppose. I sometimes put it on to create ambience on cold, rainy saturday nights.
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It's not ridiculously bad, but it's also not perfect. It's an OK live album, I suppose. I sometimes put it on to create ambience on cold, rainy saturday nights.
It was also a rainy evening ;) I don't remember whether in Rotterdam or Nimes.
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I was lucky I have seen one of the Rotterdam shows which was used for the OTN album. The version of “you and your friend” gives me still shivers. Although they didn’t released the full set I was really happy with the release because I was there.
And yes I also play the SBD bootlegs of Basel and Nimes if I want to listen a full show. Although it’s still a shame that songs like “Planet of New Orleans”, “I think I love you too much” for example never got a proper release
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My main problem with OTN, musically speaking, is the drumming. Chris Whitten is a great drummer but didn’t do a good job there. Too much sax too. On the other hand Mark’s playing was unbelievable. The editing is embarrassing sometimes, yes, but doesn’t bother me as much as the CW duo.
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My main problem with OTN, musically speaking, is the drumming. Chris Whitten is a great drummer but didn’t do a good job there. Too much sax too. On the other hand Mark’s playing was unbelievable. The editing is embarrassing sometimes, yes, but doesn’t bother me as much as the CW duo.
From my understanding, it's Mark who didn't do a good job with the drumming as it was his decision that CW did it the way he did.
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I don't actively dislike OTN, but I'd much rather see a full show with some flaws than what we actually got in the end.
I'll give Mark some points for improvisations here and there, regardless of which tour we're talking about, but I've never had the feeling he has played for the audience. It's more like "this is my job, it's what I do"-standard set - on to the next town. So, I end up listening to the first show in Dublin more often than most others, because it actually has that rare "we're playing for you guys tonight"-feel, with some rarities in the setlist.
When even the speeches are the same and mostly just bollocks anyway (Walk of life and Heavy fuel come to mind), it's kind of a turn off. It's like saying "you're the cutest ever" to all the girls you meet.
exactly
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Regarding the speeches, I think we need to cut MK some slack.
I think you will find most artists are the same, these shows are designed for the people who attend one show and one show only, not get a lifers who attend multiple shows and listen to recordings over and over.
Coming up with “banter” is a complete nightmare, so when you find some lines you think are ok you stick with them.
I played a gig recently and the promoter came up at the interval and asked me to tell more jokes between songs, it filled me with absolute dread.
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It would be nice if they release a box with all the Rotterdam and Nimes recordings without touching the audio further than mixing, and I would even not mix it if the balance is ok, so we could have realistic recordings of that tour.
That's true, but I'd rather they do something about Brothers In Arms tour.
+1000
The only one tour that didn't have any official "physical" release
every over tout has at least one song released offficialy
- firsts tours have live at the BBC (I don't count 78 and 79 as separate tours)
- 80 tour has live at the BBC (just one song TOL, but there is one)
- 82-83 tour has Alchemy
- 91-92 tour has OTN
- 96 has ANIL
- 01 has TRD special edition (few songs yes, but there are at least)
- 02 has TRD special edition (few songs yes, but there are at least)
- 06 has RLRR
but absolutely no one offcial recording from BIA tour, released "properly"
I know there is that USB stick with the National replica... ::)
and also 2005, and later tours have USB sticks
and OK, 2008 don't have any release either
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96 also had the bonus disc on the SOS compilation.
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Regarding the speeches, I think we need to cut MK some slack.
I think you will find most artists are the same, these shows are designed for the people who attend one show and one show only, not get a lifers who attend multiple shows and listen to recordings over and over.
Coming up with “banter” is a complete nightmare, so when you find some lines you think are ok you stick with them.
I played a gig recently and the promoter came up at the interval and asked me to tell more jokes between songs, it filled me with absolute dread.
I have seen McCusker, McGoldrick & Doyle many times and John tells the same jokes almost every time and Mike winks at the audience knowingly! ;D
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"and OK, 2008 don't have any release either"
Exactly! I often wonder why there is nothing from Kill To Get Crimson tour. :think
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My main problem with OTN, musically speaking, is the drumming. Chris Whitten is a great drummer but didn’t do a good job there. Too much sax too. On the other hand Mark’s playing was unbelievable. The editing is embarrassing sometimes, yes, but doesn’t bother me as much as the CW duo.
From my understanding, it's Mark who didn't do a good job with the drumming as it was his decision that CW did it the way he did.
Chris Whitten though turned out to be a terrific historian who took a million photos of that tour, his Instagram is filled with them: https://www.instagram.com/chriswhittenmusic/ (https://www.instagram.com/chriswhittenmusic/)
He also debunked some misunderstandings about the tour like wrong setlists listed on the internet and overall a great chap.
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96 also had the bonus disc on the SOS compilation.
Yes I forgot that one :thumbsup
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Interesting thread.
I think the winning thing about Alchemy is that MK didn't actually think about it too much; I remember reading him saying he had a whole bunch of tapes to listen to so just went for the Saturday night at the end of the tour because that would be the best. I think there was also around this time the wake of the Thin Lizzy Live amd Damgerous album which was on Vertigo and also a 2lp, and has criticisms that it was overdubbed. That's why you get the statement in the album that you do, that it contains 'excerpts from a live concert and no overdubs' which on face value is true, albeit some creative mixing used to edit Marks words before Tunnel of Love on the audio release.
By comparison On the Night is an agonised manicured affair, taking cuts from different shows and very audible heavy processing on the vocals, or even overdubs...who knows. I think maybe MK as a perfectionist by 1993 was looking at a contractual document of the tour rather than something to propel the career as in 1982/3. Hence major surgery on source material by now was the norm, and that extended to live recordings. From this angle, I'm almost glad we don't have any official 1985 recordings.
For me On the Night was a welcome replacement to my chewn cassette from radio of the Woburn Abbey show. Apart from missing key songs like Sultans and Telegraph Road, there isn't much really to differentiate the performances.
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In my point of view, On The Night errs by not revealing a full concert of the OES tour
I think that to register what would be the band's last tour, it left something to be desired with this release, mainly due to the absence of songs that were played in all the shows of this tour like SOS, Two Young Lovers (which I'm not a big fan of on this tour, but since it was part of the setlist, it should have been on any official tour release, especially since it was the last one), Telegraph Road or Tunnel Of Love and songs that were in the set at that time of the tour, May 1992: When It Comes to You , Fade to Black and Think I love you too much. Since it is not a record of a single show, it is "stitched" around 4 dates in two different places, it would be much more feasible to add all these songs that ended up being left out, or else, that Rotterdam or Nimes were released, both in full. From the audio point of view, notably the artificial factor is present all the time, Mark's voice is very disturbed here, the Calling Elvis video is badly edited, I show this in an article that Júlio mentioned at the beginning of this debate. I always felt something strange and quite artificial in this Calling Elvis performance, now I understand why, it's not a whole song, it's all mutilated, a well done montage, quite the opposite of The Alchemy, it has lots of overdubs, it must have been a lot of effort to merge the scenes, sync, edit artificial audio and video, in your latest trick all mark's Guitar Is completely re-recorded...not so "live", the record Is a mixing parts of different shows and this creates an artificial atmosphere.
Even so, it has incredible versions, probably definitive for some songs like You and Your Friend, (miracle that song is present in this release) for me, the great moment of the record, the BIA version here is a show, as well as Solid Rock and Wild Theme.
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Thanks for your analysis Bruno.
Do we have any evidence that the guitar on YLT was re-recorded?
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Thanks for your analysis Bruno.
Do we have any evidence that the guitar on YLT was re-recorded?
I can hardly believe that Mark Knopfler, with this attitude he had at the time, would even bother to re-record such a minor part for a live compilation album. It does look unsynchronised on the video sometimes, maybe they used a part of the guitar track from one night, and from another night? Who knows what they did...
"Hey Mark, we're mixing an old song of yours from 1985 for a live album, could you please come over and re-record one of the parts?", — "No, thanks"
Also, according to Chris Whitten, they played "You And Your Friend" almost every show, despite what all setlist websites and bootlegs claim, according to him it wasn't a rare song at all, and so naturally, it found its way on live DVD.
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There is really good interesting stuff played on that tour.
How much has been properly recorded?
If there is one tour I'd wished to be in charge to release as a multidisc boxset this is that one :
2 CD featuring an actual full setlist taken from selected nights
1 CD of song not feature on the first two CDs
1 CD of alternate live version (including rehearshal) of title already featured on the previous three CDs
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That's why you get the statement in the album that you do, that it contains 'excerpts from a live concert and no overdubs' which on face value is true, albeit some creative mixing used to edit Marks words before Tunnel of Love on the audio release.
there is also an edit at the end of Solid rock, because Terry missed the famous break on 23th so they took the one from 22th
and in the video, I think there are aslo some close-ups which are not from the same date. Sometimes the microphones are not exactly the same ones
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Apart from missing key songs like Sultans and Telegraph Road, there isn't much really to differentiate the performances.
fully agree
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editing live shows to release a live album is a common practice
Led zep's The song remains the same has a lot of edits, cuts, remix, etc...
The last waltz movie have almost all songs not entirely and cut, versus the album version which have the complete versions of songs (except Further down up the road : https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/il-y-a-45-ans-the-band-faisait-ses-adieux-a-la-scene/)
Zappa used to always edit his live recordings, adding overdubbs, mixing from different sources, etc... but it was intentionnaly to make something else, a patchwork between live and strudio takes
Neil Young's Rust never sleeps was recorded live, but they took off the crowd noise, in order to make it sound like a studio album: https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/rust-never-sleeps-de-neil-young-fete-ses-40-ans-aujourdhui/
Pink Floyd's live at Pompei has some scenes filmed in Paris : https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/il-y-a-50-ans-pink-floyd-jouait-a-pompei/
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editing live shows to release a live album is a common practice
Led zep's The song remains the same has a lot of edits, cuts, remix, etc...
The last waltz movie have almost all songs not entirely and cut, versus the album version which have the complete versions of songs (except Further down up the road : https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/il-y-a-45-ans-the-band-faisait-ses-adieux-a-la-scene/)
Zappa used to always edit his live recordings, adding overdubbs, mixing from different sources, etc... but it was intentionnaly to make something else, a patchwork between live and strudio takes
Neil Young's Rust never sleeps was recorded live, but they took off the crowd noise, in order to make it sound like a studio album: https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/rust-never-sleeps-de-neil-young-fete-ses-40-ans-aujourdhui/
Pink Floyd's live at Pompei has some scenes filmed in Paris : https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/il-y-a-50-ans-pink-floyd-jouait-a-pompei/
I agree, you can barely find unedited live albums, if at all. After all, the artist releases something for posterity, these things will be heard and watched by a lot of people, and you don't want glaring imperfections and mistakes sticking like a sore thumb for decades, so editing is understandable and even inevitable.
Heck, even for my YouTube videos, I usually record everything live, but if I encounter a little mistake that will bore me for the rest of my life, I just edit it. Now, if it's a major mistake, I would rather rerecord the whole thing, but you can't usually do it with a live show or the band on a grand tour.
On The Night might be not a perfect live album, but surely an order of magnitude more people watched it than bootlegs of this tour, and they tried everything they can to polish it, albeit making it a bit less live. Just like in Mark's rant about over-polished Telegraph Road sounding nothing like Rave On! by Buddy Holly.
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P.S. The funniest thing about my edited mistakes is that they bother me only at the time of making whatever I'm making. Over time, when I listen to the unedited version, I actually like it better (usually) and sort of wish I would not edit it in the first place. But at the time it really bothers me, so I pull the trigger. Chet Atkins used to say, "All the mistakes are intentional." And I treat any creative product as just a creative effort at the time and nothing else. If they fancy doing some edits to make it better, I'll take it, as long as it doesn't make a dramatic difference. I mean Mark knew that it won't be a true live album, because he manually selected the best versions of songs from different shows, it was the job of editors and crew to make it all work. As was mentioned before, it's NOT a dramatic difference as the songs sound almost exactly like they were performed live.
So why worry now?
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Let's remember the much fabled Alchemy has the ending of Solid Rock pasted from a different night and a couple of other tracks cut from the release, so it isn't quite the holy grail. It also finds the band at a time prior to its peak and release of greatest hits songs.
I'd agree that On the Night does sound too polished but doesn't everyone do it? Basel wasn't the best of performances with a couple of blips on BIA and Wild Theme if I recall. I would honestly rather listen to any number of bootlegs than either. Also, if looking for a soundboard, aren't we forgetting the Nîmes show from 29.09.92
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Let's remember the much fabled Alchemy has the ending of Solid Rock pasted from a different night and a couple of other tracks cut from the release, so it isn't quite the holy grail. It also finds the band at a time prior to its peak and release of greatest hits songs.
I'd agree that On the Night does sound too polished but doesn't everyone do it? Basel wasn't the best of performances with a couple of blips on BIA and Wild Theme if I recall. I would honestly rather listen to any number of bootlegs than either. Also, if looking for a soundboard, aren't we forgetting the Nîmes show from 29.09.92
Yes, Alchemy has some bits edited here and there but remains a very accurate live recording of a live concert.
OTN is like a studio record, made with parts of different nights for each song, exactly how a studio record is made. For me that's not a live record of a live show.
About bootlegs I always prefer Basel to Nimes as this last happened near the end when they were very autopilot and looking forward to end, while in Basel they were still fresh, or fresher than in Nimes.
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Let's remember the much fabled Alchemy has the ending of Solid Rock pasted from a different night and a couple of other tracks cut from the release, so it isn't quite the holy grail. It also finds the band at a time prior to its peak and release of greatest hits songs.
I'd agree that On the Night does sound too polished but doesn't everyone do it? Basel wasn't the best of performances with a couple of blips on BIA and Wild Theme if I recall. I would honestly rather listen to any number of bootlegs than either. Also, if looking for a soundboard, aren't we forgetting the Nîmes show from 29.09.92
Yes, Alchemy has some bits edited here and there but remains a very accurate live recording of a live concert.
OTN is like a studio record, made with parts of different nights for each song, exactly how a studio record is made. For me that's not a live record of a live show.
About bootlegs I always prefer Basel to Nimes as this last happened near the end when they were very autopilot and looking forward to end, while in Basel they were still fresh, or fresher than in Nimes.
I'd agree with you but just thought I'd throw it out there as the 2nd visit to Nîmes is often overlooked. Very much autopilot though, as you say.
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I rarely listen to a bootleg from the OES tour, but when I do it, I go for Dublin kickoff or one CIRCA early 92 with PONO or ITILYTM, but that's all
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Wasn't there a comment from Mark in an interview around Alchemy release time talking about how he'd been in a studio somewhere recording when some famous artist/band was in the next door studio recording overdubs for a so called 'live' album?
it was just the comments about OTN overdubs that triggered a distant memory....
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I really tend to analyze the evolution of certain songs over the course of every tour. On the OES tour, one of the songs that had the most addition of new elements, different intro and ending formats is Private Investigations, in May 1992, (OTN time) they had arrived at the definitive format of this song on this tour. Another example is Romeo and Juliet and The Bug, to a lesser extent, Heavy Fuel, Planet of New Orleans. PONO is its ending that in 1992 has a little less bars at the end, HF with the same intro as in the studio and a bridgeless ending with RJ and the introduction with drums and licks by MK, in addition to the bridge. It was a shame the band left Planet of New Orleans at the end of April, if it makes it to May it could have joined OTN, it was a big waste, on the other hand, in that period the band was playing When it Comes to You and Fade to Black, who deserved a presence on OTN, alias, that is exactly what is the biggest failure of the official live releases, the absence of songs that were played, making the record an incomplete experience of what was a real show of the band in that period, for For me this is a true sacrilege, it is present in all releases, from Alchemy, OTN, ANIL, Real Live. Even the Sultans Of Swing Clip is mangled, lacking a stanza and cumulus, final solo, biggest climax of the song with a fade-out at the beginning of the solo... I always found something schizophrenic about it.
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I loved OTN when it came out. I'm about the same age as Dusty. I thought the sound was so much better than the Basel VHS I had (well, no wonder given the medium). It quickly got boring, though, and there are only two tracks I love from that recording, and that is You And Your Friend and Brothers In Arms. Oh, man. Mark and Paul Franklin ... The interplay is just unbelievable, and I love the pedal steel solo on BIA.
I haven't watched the whole concert, so can't say about the video quality. I don't like Basel, that's for sure. They are switching shots every two seconds almost. You can get dizzy from less.
The shows from that tour had their moments, but overall they lack charm and magic.
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to me Mark is a great melodist, a great composer in instrumental sections, but not very good in improvisation
For example, Sultans versions on last tours when he tried to "improvise" were not the best ones imho. his solos went to nowhere
his best instrumental parts in his career are the ones tha he composed imho, not the ones he improvised
i'm a bit latter on this topic.
I agree and disagree about this subject, JF. ;D
I think that great improvisers are great melodists. In my school, a improvise is a spontaneously composition.The fact that MK has a great number of magnificent solos, in my opinion, prooves that he has a great sense of improvisation, but in his own language.
But, I agree that Mark do not take risks on his improvisations what makes it a bit previsible and, not to take risks, tends to push him away from the improvisor thing. But, as i said, its his language.
In my opinion, the most 'improvised' DS tour was the OES. I Think I Love You Too Much and Fade To Black and the pinacle of 'Dire Straits Improvisation Series'
I always believed that Mark is a great Project Owner too, because i feel that every tour setlist was 90% the same. The vibe was the same and the only musician that plays something different was MK himself and he is not playing really diferent stuff. He is selling a product? Yes. I'm sure he is.
I cannot listen more than 5 bootlegs per tour because i feel that its almost the same thing every show. Maybe if the band was more open to the improvisational thing, at least for me, the thing could be more interesting to hear.
So, 60% Agreed ;D ;D ;D
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to me Mark is a great melodist, a great composer in instrumental sections, but not very good in improvisation
For example, Sultans versions on last tours when he tried to "improvise" were not the best ones imho. his solos went to nowhere
his best instrumental parts in his career are the ones tha he composed imho, not the ones he improvised
i'm a bit latter on this topic.
I agree and disagree about this subject, JF. ;D
I think that great improvisers are great melodists. In my school, a improvise is a spontaneously composition.The fact that MK has a great number of magnificent solos, in my opinion, prooves that he has a great sense of improvisation, but in his own language.
But, I agree that Mark do not take risks on his improvisations what makes it a bit previsible and, not to take risks, tends to push him away from the improvisor thing. But, as i said, its his language.
In my opinion, the most 'improvised' DS tour was the OES. I Think I Love You Too Much and Fade To Black and the pinacle of 'Dire Straits Improvisation Series'
I always believed that Mark is a great Project Owner too, because i feel that every tour setlist was 90% the same. The vibe was the same and the only musician that plays something different was MK himself and he is not playing really diferent stuff. He is selling a product? Yes. I'm sure he is.
I cannot listen more than 5 bootlegs per tour because i feel that its almost the same thing every show. Maybe if the band was more open to the improvisational thing, at least for me, the thing could be more interesting to hear.
So, 60% Agreed ;D ;D ;D
:thumbsup
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Overall you can't say that On The Night is ridiculously bad as there's nothing ridiculous or bad there.
I can and I did! The clothes are fine but MK's hair was ridiculous as well by this stage.
the clothers were NOT fine...phil's shirt....amongst many other things...
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I rarely listen to a bootleg from the OES tour, but when I do it, I go for Dublin kickoff or one CIRCA early 92 with PONO or ITILYTM, but that's all
or any You and your friend recording from later during the tour, or that rare portobello belle,...or tunnel...
but that's about it for me too...
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I don’t see Mark Knopfler doing overdubs for a live recording, I just don’t. And what would be the point in recording a handful of gigs if you still need to overdub stuff. Even back then studios like those Mark resorted to before having BG had the tools to glue together bits and pieces of different concerts without noticeable edits. All that said, I might be completely wrong, of course.
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Neil Young's Rust never sleeps was recorded live, but they took off the crowd noise, in order to make it sound like a studio album: https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/rust-never-sleeps-de-neil-young-fete-ses-40-ans-aujourdhui/
At risk of getting side tracked, I was listening to this album recently and crowd noise is audible on the opening and closing tracks, on My My, Hey Hey (Out Of The Blue) I think the crowd can be heard at times during the song and the crowd is definitely audible at the end of Hey Hey, My My (Into The Black). However, this album is definitely worthy of mention for examples of live recordings that were edited for release, because if you compare the versions of Powderfinger and Sedan Delivery on Rust Never Sleeps with the versions on Live Rust you can hear that electric guitar parts have been overdubbed on the former versions.
If memory serves, all the songs on the electric side of Rust Never Sleeps were recorded live, but the acoustic side contains Sail Away, which is definitely a studio recording. It has quite a different sound and feel from the rest of that album, I think it was probably recorded during the Comes A Time sessions - most obviously the song features female backing vocals (from Nicolette Larson if I remember correctly), which were a big feature of that album but don't feature on the other Rust Never Sleeps tracks. I think Pocahontas is also a studio recording but sonically fits in seamlessly with the live acoustic tracks so isn't as noticeable.
(You might be able to tell that I'm a fan of Neil Young's music, and Rust Never Sleeps in particular...)
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Ah well, the On the Night record got me into Dire Straits so it'll always be a very special record to me. I was about 13 at the time and it totally blew me away. Party because of the fact that it didn't sound really live; everything seemed so perfectly executed, and sounding almost as good as a studio record!
Now being older I also notice the big part of post-production, but on the other hand; the fact that this live record sounded so other-worldly perfect and larger than life probably was part of the charm. Every note on the record is cemented in concrete to me, not one shaky bit anywhere.
I work in music now myself, also mixing, and it is clear there's a lot of polishing up and editing going on. His voice sounds a lot bigger than you would expect from a Shure SM58; wonderin' what's been done with that during mixing. I'd say a whole lot!
I pretty sure the guitar in Your Latest Trick was overdubbed; the licks don't match with the video and to take them from another take (with a different overall feel and probably not the exact tempo) would be a lot more hassle to fit than to play it again, sometime during the mixing-stage. I was always blown away by that thick, clean sound by the way. I only noticed the overdubbing now that you guys mentioned it, but it's pretty clear it is.
Anyway, despite all this; I still get goosebumps from You and your Friend, Brothers in Arms (my favorite version by far, partly because of Paul Franklin!) and On Every Street. And guitar-envy from Calling Elvis; how to come up with that solo, keeping it interesting over just one chord is mindblowing.
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I pretty sure the guitar in Your Latest Trick was overdubbed
Yep! Me too.
And overdubbing live recordings are absolutely normal.
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I pretty sure the guitar in Your Latest Trick was overdubbed
Yep! Me too.
And overdubbing live recordings are absolutely normal.
Maybe it's normal, but it still sucks!
At least we have the bootlegs. A live album that isn't live seems like a pointless exercise to me.
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Neil Young's Rust never sleeps was recorded live, but they took off the crowd noise, in order to make it sound like a studio album: https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/rust-never-sleeps-de-neil-young-fete-ses-40-ans-aujourdhui/
At risk of getting side tracked, I was listening to this album recently and crowd noise is audible on the opening and closing tracks, on My My, Hey Hey (Out Of The Blue) I think the crowd can be heard at times during the song and the crowd is definitely audible at the end of Hey Hey, My My (Into The Black). However, this album is definitely worthy of mention for examples of live recordings that were edited for release, because if you compare the versions of Powderfinger and Sedan Delivery on Rust Never Sleeps with the versions on Live Rust you can hear that electric guitar parts have been overdubbed on the former versions.
If memory serves, all the songs on the electric side of Rust Never Sleeps were recorded live, but the acoustic side contains Sail Away, which is definitely a studio recording. It has quite a different sound and feel from the rest of that album, I think it was probably recorded during the Comes A Time sessions - most obviously the song features female backing vocals (from Nicolette Larson if I remember correctly), which were a big feature of that album but don't feature on the other Rust Never Sleeps tracks. I think Pocahontas is also a studio recording but sonically fits in seamlessly with the live acoustic tracks so isn't as noticeable.
(You might be able to tell that I'm a fan of Neil Young's music, and Rust Never Sleeps in particular...)
Yes you are right. Of course we can hear the crowd noise here and there, but not as such as we can expect from a live recording.
I mean we can't hear any applause between the songs, that's what I meant by "crowd noises removed"
and indeed you are right about Pocahontas and Sail away. yes it's Nicolette Larson on backing vocals
I am a Neil Young fan too. here are some crhonicles about the loner : https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/neil-young/
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Neil Young's Rust never sleeps was recorded live, but they took off the crowd noise, in order to make it sound like a studio album: https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/rust-never-sleeps-de-neil-young-fete-ses-40-ans-aujourdhui/
At risk of getting side tracked, I was listening to this album recently and crowd noise is audible on the opening and closing tracks, on My My, Hey Hey (Out Of The Blue) I think the crowd can be heard at times during the song and the crowd is definitely audible at the end of Hey Hey, My My (Into The Black). However, this album is definitely worthy of mention for examples of live recordings that were edited for release, because if you compare the versions of Powderfinger and Sedan Delivery on Rust Never Sleeps with the versions on Live Rust you can hear that electric guitar parts have been overdubbed on the former versions.
If memory serves, all the songs on the electric side of Rust Never Sleeps were recorded live, but the acoustic side contains Sail Away, which is definitely a studio recording. It has quite a different sound and feel from the rest of that album, I think it was probably recorded during the Comes A Time sessions - most obviously the song features female backing vocals (from Nicolette Larson if I remember correctly), which were a big feature of that album but don't feature on the other Rust Never Sleeps tracks. I think Pocahontas is also a studio recording but sonically fits in seamlessly with the live acoustic tracks so isn't as noticeable.
(You might be able to tell that I'm a fan of Neil Young's music, and Rust Never Sleeps in particular...)
Yes you are right. Of course we can hear the crowd noise here and there, but not as such as we can expect from a live recording.
I mean we can't hear any applause between the songs, that's what I meant by "crowd noises removed"
and indeed you are right about Pocahontas and Sail away. yes it's Nicolette Larson on backing vocals
I am a Neil Young fan too. here are some crhonicles about the loner : https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/neil-young/
At risk of getting side tracked, but JF seem to have an article about any topic that you throw at him :lol Bravo :clap
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JF, what are your thoughts on crop rotation in the 14th century? ;)
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Neil Young's Rust never sleeps was recorded live, but they took off the crowd noise, in order to make it sound like a studio album: https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/rust-never-sleeps-de-neil-young-fete-ses-40-ans-aujourdhui/
At risk of getting side tracked, I was listening to this album recently and crowd noise is audible on the opening and closing tracks, on My My, Hey Hey (Out Of The Blue) I think the crowd can be heard at times during the song and the crowd is definitely audible at the end of Hey Hey, My My (Into The Black). However, this album is definitely worthy of mention for examples of live recordings that were edited for release, because if you compare the versions of Powderfinger and Sedan Delivery on Rust Never Sleeps with the versions on Live Rust you can hear that electric guitar parts have been overdubbed on the former versions.
If memory serves, all the songs on the electric side of Rust Never Sleeps were recorded live, but the acoustic side contains Sail Away, which is definitely a studio recording. It has quite a different sound and feel from the rest of that album, I think it was probably recorded during the Comes A Time sessions - most obviously the song features female backing vocals (from Nicolette Larson if I remember correctly), which were a big feature of that album but don't feature on the other Rust Never Sleeps tracks. I think Pocahontas is also a studio recording but sonically fits in seamlessly with the live acoustic tracks so isn't as noticeable.
(You might be able to tell that I'm a fan of Neil Young's music, and Rust Never Sleeps in particular...)
Yes you are right. Of course we can hear the crowd noise here and there, but not as such as we can expect from a live recording.
I mean we can't hear any applause between the songs, that's what I meant by "crowd noises removed"
and indeed you are right about Pocahontas and Sail away. yes it's Nicolette Larson on backing vocals
I am a Neil Young fan too. here are some crhonicles about the loner : https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/neil-young/
At risk of getting side tracked, but JF seem to have an article about any topic that you throw at him :lol Bravo :clap
ah ah :lol Well it's just that most subjects on this forum are talking about good msuic, and well.. I like good music :D :)
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JF, what are your thoughts on crop rotation in the 14th century? ;)
:lol :lol :lol
I haven't written about this yet ;D
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Neil Young's Rust never sleeps was recorded live, but they took off the crowd noise, in order to make it sound like a studio album: https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/rust-never-sleeps-de-neil-young-fete-ses-40-ans-aujourdhui/
At risk of getting side tracked, I was listening to this album recently and crowd noise is audible on the opening and closing tracks, on My My, Hey Hey (Out Of The Blue) I think the crowd can be heard at times during the song and the crowd is definitely audible at the end of Hey Hey, My My (Into The Black). However, this album is definitely worthy of mention for examples of live recordings that were edited for release, because if you compare the versions of Powderfinger and Sedan Delivery on Rust Never Sleeps with the versions on Live Rust you can hear that electric guitar parts have been overdubbed on the former versions.
If memory serves, all the songs on the electric side of Rust Never Sleeps were recorded live, but the acoustic side contains Sail Away, which is definitely a studio recording. It has quite a different sound and feel from the rest of that album, I think it was probably recorded during the Comes A Time sessions - most obviously the song features female backing vocals (from Nicolette Larson if I remember correctly), which were a big feature of that album but don't feature on the other Rust Never Sleeps tracks. I think Pocahontas is also a studio recording but sonically fits in seamlessly with the live acoustic tracks so isn't as noticeable.
(You might be able to tell that I'm a fan of Neil Young's music, and Rust Never Sleeps in particular...)
Yes you are right. Of course we can hear the crowd noise here and there, but not as such as we can expect from a live recording.
I mean we can't hear any applause between the songs, that's what I meant by "crowd noises removed"
and indeed you are right about Pocahontas and Sail away. yes it's Nicolette Larson on backing vocals
I am a Neil Young fan too. here are some crhonicles about the loner : https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/neil-young/
At risk of getting side tracked, but JF seem to have an article about any topic that you throw at him :lol Bravo :clap
hey Quizzy, I am sure that you did a video about any MK song we can throw at you :lol
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JF, what are your thoughts on crop rotation in the 14th century? ;)
:lol :lol :lol
I haven't written about this yet ;D
:disbelief
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I pretty sure the guitar in Your Latest Trick was overdubbed
Yep! Me too.
And overdubbing live recordings are absolutely normal.
What makes you guys think that? I’m curious 🤯
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Yep! Me too.
And overdubbing live recordings are absolutely normal.
What makes you guys think that? I’m curious 🤯
[/quote]
When i saw the OTN for the first time, during YLT, the video doesn't match the sound. In my opinion, its not a lack of sync, but he is playing other things apart from what is on video.
Hearing carefully, the guitar EQ seems to be over edited, witch i feel (and i have pretty sure about it) that it was overdubbed. Hearing others bootlegs from the tour, MK never played this song like he played on the oficial record.
Not worth to mention that, the OTN is part of 3 venues. as discussed here and very well explained by Brunno Nunes, Calling Elvis is a mix from the 3 shows recorded for the OTN release. So, there is a LOT of editing on this album.
GF said many times that was very difficult to mix this album.
Another famous MK overbud, is that he overdubbed some vocal parts in Portobello Belle for the MFN compilation.
Many artits overdubs live recordings.
The album is a product, so, it needs to be perfect.
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Evening all. I’ve just listened to calling Elvia live on headphones. It reminded me how bad this is!! It’s not just the vocal but MK’s guitar bears no resemblance to how it sounded at the gig or the various other recordings. It’s closest to Nimes 29/9/92 but still way different. Yet you and your friend is still brilliant. But maybe that’s because we don’t have a soundboard to compare to. Given they wanted this out pronto they ballsed this up big time.
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Yep! Me too.
And overdubbing live recordings are absolutely normal.
What makes you guys think that? I’m curious 🤯
When i saw the OTN for the first time, during YLT, the video doesn't match the sound. In my opinion, its not a lack of sync, but he is playing other things apart from what is on video.
Hearing carefully, the guitar EQ seems to be over edited, witch i feel (and i have pretty sure about it) that it was overdubbed. Hearing others bootlegs from the tour, MK never played this song like he played on the oficial record.
Not worth to mention that, the OTN is part of 3 venues. as discussed here and very well explained by Brunno Nunes, Calling Elvis is a mix from the 3 shows recorded for the OTN release. So, there is a LOT of editing on this album.
GF said many times that was very difficult to mix this album.
Another famous MK overbud, is that he overdubbed some vocal parts in Portobello Belle for the MFN compilation.
Many artits overdubs live recordings.
The album is a product, so, it needs to be perfect.
[/quote]
You might be right but my guess is it’s bits and pieces from different gigs rather than an overdub.
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You might be right but my guess is it’s bits and pieces from different gigs rather than an overdub.
Make overdubs it's way easier and cheaper than pick up a guitar channel from another concert.
Maybe the 'mosaic of parts' from the OTN record, maybe, is because they had a bad source of audio capture. So they needed to overdub more than the usual.
The AC/DC live records, for example, the guitar amps on stage are only for the musicians. The amps that are recording are on three trucks apart from the stage. Each truck for one instrument. The PA sound came from these trucks. Drums and vocals are recorded on stage.
Chris Witten said that, at the OES tour, the monitors on stage were way too loud. So, imagine to record a band that have 5 vocals, flute/sax, percussion, drums, 34 keyboards, bass, 3 guitars and the stage monitors bleeding in agony ahahaha.
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You might be right but my guess is it’s bits and pieces from different gigs rather than an overdub.
Make overdubs it's way easier and cheaper than pick up a guitar channel from another concert.
Maybe the 'mosaic of parts' from the OTN record, maybe, is because they had a bad source of audio capture. So they needed to overdub more than the usual.
The AC/DC live records, for example, the guitar amps on stage are only for the musicians. The amps that are recording are on three trucks apart from the stage. Each truck for one instrument. The PA sound came from these trucks. Drums and vocals are recorded on stage.
Chris Witten said that, at the OES tour, the monitors on stage were way too loud. So, imagine to record a band that have 5 vocals, flute/sax, percussion, drums, 34 keyboards, bass, 3 guitars and the stage monitors bleeding in agony ahahaha.
Its noy cheaper actually. It involves the employ of at least 3 people and several hours of studio time. Compare that with comping half a dozen guitar parts.
Given Marks integrity I would be very surprised if he was involved in overdubbing a live album. Plus its well known that MK had well and truly had enough of DS. I can't see him wanting to put in the effort to rerecord large parts of said shows.
Overdubbing/fixing live albums should not be the industry norm. Unfortunately it seems like the world is full of charlatans....
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Gave OTN a listen just now. I got to Heavy Fuel and had to turn off. The whole thing feels dated and irrelevant.
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Chris W had in ear monitors. One of the first times I can remember seeing them I think.
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Not cheaper at all, I’ve done both live recordings and recording sessions. Each instrument is mic’d up individually on stage - in Mark’s case one track for each amp he plays through simultaneously. It’s a lot easier and more practical to use what’s already there.
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Not cheaper at all, I’ve done both live recordings and recording sessions. Each instrument is mic’d up individually on stage - in Mark’s case one track for each amp he plays through simultaneously. It’s a lot easier and more practical to use what’s already there.
Believe me. If the original mix sucks, its cheaper make an overdub.
Cheaper, in this case, means less expensive.
Costs less time in the studio.
If you book a studio session, the studio provides the people that you'll need.
I'm not saying that, the OTN record are full of overdubs.
Some studios calls overdubs as 'additional recording'
There is no romance in the music business, if is bad, redo it or throw it away. MK is a rare case that an artitst who can make "everething he wants".
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I run a small studio and have taught music technology for nearly 25 years Rolo. Trust me when I say you can fix anything in post production, and its way simpler than calling in musicians to completely redo parts.
If you don't believe Eddie and I then see guys forum latest question for the definitive answer.
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I run a small studio and have taught music technology for nearly 25 years Rolo. Trust me when I say you can fix anything in post production, and its way simpler than calling in musicians to completely redo parts.
If you don't believe Eddie and I then see guys forum latest question for the definitive answer.
:thumbsup
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OTN is not good but not bad either.
We know that songs are edited and even composite from several nights.
I don't think that they had technical problem with the recording itself, as most of the amps on that tour actually were not set on the stage so they did not suffer form the monitors.
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I run a small studio and have taught music technology for nearly 25 years Rolo. Trust me when I say you can fix anything in post production, and its way simpler than calling in musicians to completely redo parts.
If you don't believe Eddie and I then see guys forum latest question for the definitive answer.
Exactly. Take Mark’s stage rig as an example. He has always at least two amps mic’d up individually, stereo. If he’s not happy with the tone he got as he’s mixing the song he can do his little tweaking, play around with amp 1 and 2, and hit the spot. That’s exactly what I think he did with Your Latest Trick.
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Exactly. Take Mark’s stage rig as an example. He has always at least two amps mic’d up individually, stereo. If he’s not happy with the tone he got as he’s mixing the song he can do his little tweaking, play around with amp 1 and 2, and hit the spot. That’s exactly what I think he did with Your Latest Trick.
:thumbsup
Ask Peter Frampton if Frampton Comes Alive has overdubs.
I suppose that you guys are thinking that Mark overdubbed entire songs. Its not the case.
Don't forget that MK replaced vocals on PB for the MFN compilation.
But, that's fine.
Everyone has his own good arguments
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Exactly. Take Mark’s stage rig as an example. He has always at least two amps mic’d up individually, stereo. If he’s not happy with the tone he got as he’s mixing the song he can do his little tweaking, play around with amp 1 and 2, and hit the spot. That’s exactly what I think he did with Your Latest Trick.
:thumbsup
Ask Peter Frampton if Frampton Comes Alive has overdubs.
I suppose that you guys are thinking that Mark overdubbed entire songs. Its not the case.
Don't forget that MK replaced vocals on PB for the MFN compilation.
But, that's fine.
Everyone has his own good arguments
Rolo, if you're going to make claims like that then you'll need some evidence. MFN was contractually obliged. Again I doubt MK had much to do with putting it together. Its simple, he doesn't look back, including compilation and live albums....
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Rolo, if you're going to make claims like that then you'll need some evidence. MFN was contractually obliged. Again I doubt MK had much to do with putting it together. Its simple, he doesn't look back, including compilation and live albums....
https://ultimateclassicrock.com/peter-frampton-we-left-the-mistakes-on-frampton-comes-alive/
“In those days, technology was not as it is today. It just wasn't as technical. We've come a long way, obviously. So unfortunately, on a couple of the tracks, only, some instruments were not recorded because there was crackling on the tape or the assistant or the guitar tech didn't move a mic. (As for) the number of times that anything is overdubbed on 'Frampton Comes Alive!'... the rule was, if it didn't make it to the tape, then we can redo it because it needs to be done. If it made it to the tape, and it sounds good, we leave it. So nothing was overdubbed on that album at all that wasn't absolutely necessary."
“I'll tell you exactly what happened when we mixed the live album, so there are no ifs, buts, where or whats. This was the rule that I had when we made “Frampton Comes Alive!,” being known as a live performer, I'm not going to go into the studio and overdub. If you want to say that, say that about 'Kiss Alive,' because they borrowed my guitars and my amps to do those overdubs."
Eddie Kramer also worked on the overdubbing sessions for Kiss Alive (77)
I didn't find the photo of the magazine who MK said that he needed to redo some vocals on Portobello. I'll search it deeply.
I am not sure about it (probally not) , but i believe that my friend Brunno Nunes made an analysys about it comparing the Alchemy bootlegs to the remix on the MFN compilations and he spotted the differences.
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I have no doubt that OTN is a true mosaic where scenes from two different places were used, often for the same song, Calling Elvis is an excellent example, I showed this in an analysis I did, scenes with 1 microphone, scenes with 2 microphones, with an overdub right at the entrance, after Mark's first guitar note, when the whole band and the sound mass enter, Mark says something like, "yeah, Alright", (I don't remember if that's what he speaks) but, if you have Deezer, just open the CE from the OTN and put it at the point 0:58 seconds Mark shouting that scream, then listen to any of the CE versions from the 4 nights that were used to elaborate the OTN and you will notice that there is no such line, suggesting that this was an overdub.
In addition, as far as I remember now, only Your and Your Friend and Brother in Arms are the faxes that are basically 100% the same as those present in the Bootlegs, that is, there is no "tampering" of any kind. There are parts of guitars that are only contained in the OTN and are not present in any of the 4 recordings that were used to assemble the OTN, which luckily we have available for analysis, I already did that and I know that through this analysis it is possible to identify where it contains overdubs , it's not about being improbable, it's something factual, those who have doubts just have the patience and courage to do this analysis that I already did, I did it with pleasure, because I love to investigate these details, I did it and I prove it.
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It is unfortunate that NONE of Dire Straits' live releases reveal an experience of what a real concert was like in the entirety of a given tour, that's how it was with Alchemy, that's how it was with OTN, Live at The BBC, from a historical point of view it's a sacrilege, woe betide us if it weren't for the Bootlegs, because if it were up to the band, we would never know that Industrial Disease, Love Over Gold, Twisting by The Pool and Portobello Belle were played on the LOG tour, the Bootlegs are always more honest than the official live releases, as I always say, the story of any band is incomplete if it doesn't go through the bootlegs.
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It is unfortunate that NONE of Dire Straits' live releases reveal an experience of what a real concert
Hey, Brunno. Was you that interviewed Joop de Korte by facebook years ago and he said that the band needed to recreate stage scenes for the Alchemy VHS?
You also spotted some differences from the bootlegs and the official record?
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It is unfortunate that NONE of Dire Straits' live releases reveal an experience of what a real concert
Hey, Brunno. Was you that interviewed Joop de Korte by facebook years ago and he said that the band needed to recreate stage scenes for the Alchemy VHS?
You also spotted some differences from the bootlegs and the official record?
Actually I didn't interview him, he had participated in a thread that in a Facebook group about Mark Knopfler and Dire Straits, I remember that I was participating in the debate and he brought this information about Alchemy , he said that When they were editing the alchemy video they noticed they didn't have enough close ups of the musicians, and they gathered in a a studio and played a concert just for film close ups. Joop said that MK didn't have his alchemy arrows t-shirts and they used a white one with black stickers to simulate the arrows, I remember he mentioned that for this reason there is little presence of Tommy Mandel in the recording, as he had returned to NY after the tour.
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It is unfortunate that NONE of Dire Straits' live releases reveal an experience of what a real concert
Hey, Brunno. Was you that interviewed Joop de Korte by facebook years ago and he said that the band needed to recreate stage scenes for the Alchemy VHS?
You also spotted some differences from the bootlegs and the official record?
Actually I didn't interview him, he had participated in a thread that in a Facebook group about Mark Knopfler and Dire Straits, I remember that I was participating in the debate and he brought this information about Alchemy , he said that When they were editing the alchemy video they noticed they didn't have enough close ups of the musicians, and they gathered in a a studio and played a concert just for film close ups. Joop said that MK didn't have his alchemy arrows t-shirts and they used a white one with black stickers to simulate the arrows, I remember he mentioned that for this reason there is little presence of Tommy Mandel in the recording, as he had returned to NY after the tour.
That makes sense... Close-ups are important, after all. I still think it doesn't matter how "live" the live album is, it will never be even close to the real show, so they can cut it however they want. I still remember this huge disappointment when I visited my first live gigs after being exposed to live albums. It's a different experience, much like watching football on TV vs watching it live in the stadium. Not like either is bad, it's just like they... have different purposes.
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"Joop said that MK didn't have his alchemy arrows t-shirts and they used a white one with black stickers to simulate the arrows"
I don't know if I wanted to know about it :o
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It is unfortunate that NONE of Dire Straits' live releases reveal an experience of what a real concert
Hey Bruno. Was you that interviewed Joop de Korte by facebook years ago and he said that the band needed to recreate stage scenes for the Alchemy VHS?
You also spotted some differences from the bootlegs and the official record?
Actually I didn't interview him, he had participated in a thread that in a Facebook group about Mark Knopfler and Dire Straits, I remember that I was participating in the debate and he brought this information about Alchemy , he said that When they were editing the alchemy video noticed they didn't have enough close ups of the musicians, and they gathered in a a studio and played a concert just for film close ups. Joop said that MK didn't have his alchemy arrows t-shirts and they used a white one with black stickers to simulate the arrows, I remember he mentioned that for this reason there is little presence of Tommy Mandel in the recording, as he had returned to NY after the tour.
That makes sense... Close-ups are important, after all. I still think it doesn't matter how "live" the live album is, it will never even be close to the real show, so they can cut it however they want. I still remember this huge disappointment when I visited my first live gigs after being exposed to live albums. It's a different experience, much like watching football on TV vs watching it live in the stadium. Not like either is bad, it's just like they... have different purposes.
Excuse the bluntness, Pavel, but you are being extremely conformist in this respect here. It is evident that it is one thing to be present at a band's concert, to buy a ticket and go to watch it, and another thing is to watch the concert after a post-production through a screen, but, you are disregarding the character historical of leaving a record with the minimum of a real experience of a moment in the trajectory of a band, note that in the case of Alchemy it is a show on the LOG tour and in all the shows on the tour the repertoire contained the presence of ID, LOG, TBTP and PB , the band will record a live recording in audio and video for a future release, everyone who was physically at the site contemplated the set in full, except those who only purchased the release on LP, cd or video, as there is a lack of songs and from the historical point of view of the trajectory of the bandis a sacrilege, the same thing happens with OTN, because, in addition to the absence of fundamental songs in a DS show, such as Sultans Of Swing, TOL or TR, both with new clothes in this period. Anyway, they made a real mosaic, mixing scenes from different dates and places for the same song, it has overdubs scattered at various points, this causes a permanently artificial air and this is very remarkable in OTN. For these and other reasons Basel 92 or Nimes in September 92, are more honest in presenting a real performance of Dire Straits in that period, this has much more importance, at least for me and the OTN request in this sense in my opinion.
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"Joop said that MK didn't have his alchemy arrows t-shirts and they used a white one with black stickers to simulate the arrows"
I don't know if I wanted to know about it :o
This is yet another factor that demystifies Alchemy as a 100% product without overdubs, a faithful record of a Dire Straits concert at that time, this idea was sold for decades and it didn't work out like that.
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Oh yeah, I perfectly acknowledge that I'm a conformist. I'm an extremely casual fan in that regard. It's hard for me to come to any conclusion though... Historic accuracy is great if you're searching for it. I'm sure for 99% of people, including those who attended the shows, both Alchemy and On The Night are as historic as it gets, and only 1% will see the change of venues or, in one case, I remember somebody noticed the change of a snare drum on one of the songs or something. I represent a strange mixture of both. I love accuracy and precision, but on the other hand, can live perfectly well without ever hearing Sultans and Telegraph from the 90s (I think I heard it only once), or experiencing some apparently heavy post-production. I generally trust the artist... And I think you simply can't survive being 100% true to history in this business. Some compromises are inevitable, like mentioned close-ups for Alchemy. It's an interesting story.
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I want to point out that I don't completely disdain overdubs on some live shows, for me it's valid for correcting notable mistakes like Terry's at the end of Solid Rock on the last night at the Hammersmith Odeon in 1983, but, OTN has a lot of overdubs, plus a lot of mix and absence of fundamental songs, it is not possible to think that OTN is a tour souvenir, it is far from it, Basel or Nimes are at the forefront in this and Alchemy sins for even today with all available technology still continuing with the absence of ID, LOG , TBTP and PB.
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Anyone who has doubts about overdubs on OTN, just listen to the 4 shows that were used to create OTN and you will realize that there are guitar and voice parts that are only present in the final product that configures OTN, if not overdubs it was an entity that downloaded in the recording process, hahaha! ;D
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OTN filming is from 4 shows but audio?
We know that more shows were recorded and can provide patches.
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OTN filming is from 4 shows but audio?
We know that more shows were recorded and can provide patches.
That's right, they filmed 4 concerts, two in Rotterdam and two in Nimes, with an interval of 10 days and from that they "sewed" transforming it into a true mosaic, Calling Elvis for example, contains scenes and audio parts of the 4 concerts, and has audio parts that are not in any of the shows that were used to assemble the OTN, (we have the Bootlegs of these recordings to analyze and verify), the same thing happens with Portobello Belle live present in the MFN compilation, there are parts of the vocal that are not are on any recording of the 5 Nights in Paris in June 1983, or they were taken from some other show that the band recorded that we don't have on bootlegs, or it was overdubbed. Remembering that Mark Knopfler is the producer of the tracks "Portobello Belle-Live" and "Where do you think You're Going" present in the aforementioned 1988 MFN collection, this information appears in the album credits.
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Makes me laugh the conspiracies thrown around on here. Obviously the opinions of the musicians or in this case specifically the producer of the album don't matter.
And what do we draw from this?
2 things. 90% of musicians are cheats/charlatans, and fans love a conspiracy, even when debunked Guy himself.
Have fun!
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I prefer to investigate the available recordings and find an answer to my doubts, than to blindly believe what Guy wants to write in his forum, with all his comfort in writing whatever he wants so as not to bother him. I think it's more commendable and intelligent to go check out the recordings and see the facts, you can't blindly believe what is said by the musicians, just look at how modest the DS and MK releases are, remember, Alchemy has been sold for decades as a record without overdubs, this has been demystified, it's just an example that there is no conspiracy theory in what is being shown here about OTN.
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Makes me laugh the conspiracies thrown around on here. Obviously the opinions of the musicians or in this case specifically the producer of the album don't matter.
And what do we draw from this?
2 things. 90% of musicians are cheats/charlatans, and fans love a conspiracy, even when debunked Guy himself.
Have fun!
I'm sorry, Chris.
But people on this topic had opinions or doubts about making overdubs on live records, witch some of us have no problem saying, suspect or making statements about the OTN record.
You ran a studio for 25 years.
I had a part-time job on a studio for 5 years and i recorded on few studios (big and small ones) and, surprinsingly i worked overdubbing parts for a live record (DVD) that i participate in 2007 called "São João da Capitá"
In this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL-SRz3DEAE&list=PL212703E9C7880623
I was called to replace a bass part because my bass was muted at the begining of the song. (10 or 20 seconds)
The guitar player needed to replace one pair of chords as well.
We spend about 2 hours on the studio
And its a sh*t recording by the way. :lol
Brunno are a DS/MK researcher. So was part of his fun-time to find this gaps. And, believe me, he as a LOT of research about it.
There is no shame on overdub live records.
Its part of the business. I don't care.
Peter Frampton made overdubs, Kiss made overdubs and Dire Straits made overbubs and there is no problem about it.
Guy is 'the perfect lier'
He will never tell about things like that because he knows the behaviour of a hard fan.
But he is a great source of information.
If "Mark never looks back", probably songs like Speedway, Remembrance Day or Secondary Waltz should not have been released.
This sentence is more about philosophy in certain way.
People showed his opinions and people decides what do with it.
If you or Eddie don't believe that MK made overdubs, thats totally fine.
Simple as that.
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2 things. 90% of musicians are cheats/charlatans, and fans love a conspiracy, even when debunked Guy himself.
You know that a LOT of musicians use Melodyne.
Singers, guitar players, sax players...
Many drum tracks need to be resync with the beat.
There are musicians that are charlatans? Yes!
Fans love a conspiracy? Yes!
Guy always tell the truth? No!
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Makes me laugh the conspiracies thrown around on here. Obviously the opinions of the musicians or in this case specifically the producer of the album don't matter.
And what do we draw from this?
2 things. 90% of musicians are cheats/charlatans, and fans love a conspiracy, even when debunked Guy himself.
Have fun!
Yeah… I mean, the producer himself, with the tapes laying literally next to him, said he can’t find overdubs. Hard to beat it.
Several gigs were recorded, only a couple were filmed. There’s no mystery there really.
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2 things. 90% of musicians are cheats/charlatans, and fans love a conspiracy, even when debunked Guy himself.
You know that a LOT of musicians use Melodyne.
Singers, guitar players, sax players...
Many drum tracks need to be resync with the beat.
There are musicians that are charlatans? Yes!
Fans love a conspiracy? Yes!
Guy always tell the truth? No!
That’s Mark Knopfler, mate… let’s ignore the fact he hated overdubs before BG, the fact that experienced musicians explained it’s less practical and also the fact that the producer of the album said there are no overdubs he can identify on the master tapes. Let’s be subjective for a minute. Mr K was fed up with big tours and DS and couldn’t wait to move away from that. He was also going through divorce. Do you really think after all that he’d bother to grab a bunch of guitars and amps, head to some studio who knows where and play guitar parts he was probably sick of hearing let alone play them? I don’t think so.
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Makes me laugh the conspiracies thrown around on here. Obviously the opinions of the musicians or in this case specifically the producer of the album don't matter.
And what do we draw from this?
2 things. 90% of musicians are cheats/charlatans, and fans love a conspiracy, even when debunked Guy himself.
Have fun!
Yeah… I mean, the producer himself, with the tapes laying literally next to him, said he can’t find overdubs. Hard to beat it.
Several gigs were recorded, only a couple were filmed. There’s no mystery there really.
I use Melodyne too, along with autotune, time stretching, AI voices, etc. Just not on live recordings.
I take Eddie's point about fixing seconds of a track due to technical problems. My first instinct in this situation is to look for a splice that is as close to the original as possible. I've even on request from a client patched crackly tracks with a midi sample instrument taken from the original. I suppose the question really is how much of this can you do before its no longer a live performance?
For me its an ethical issue. I'm a big fan of integrity ;D and I didn't pay good money for Queen almost live in Pompeii or Kiss Almost Alive (worst example ever of cheating).
If its a short passage, fix it with something as close to the original as possible, or even a short overdub. If you can't genuinely pull it off live then just don't.
So when is a live album not a live album?!...
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That’s Mark Knopfler, mate… let’s ignore the fact he hated overdubs before BG, the fact that experienced musicians explained it’s less practical and also the fact that the producer of the album said there are no overdubs he can identify on the master tapes. Let’s be subjective for a minute. Mr K was fed up with big tours and DS and couldn’t wait to move away from that. He was also going through divorce. Do you really think after all that he’d bother to grab a bunch of guitars and amps, head to some studio who knows where and play guitar parts he was probably sick of hearing let alone play them? I don’t think so.
:thumbsup
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I use Melodyne too, along with autotune, time stretching, AI voices, etc. Just not on live recordings.
I take Eddie's point about fixing seconds of a track due to technical problems. My first instinct in this situation is to look for a splice that is as close to the original as possible. I've even on request from a client patched crackly tracks with a midi sample instrument taken from the original. I suppose the question really is how much of this can you do before its no longer a live performance?
For me its an ethical issue. I'm a big fan of integrity ;D and I didn't pay good money for Queen almost live in Pompeii or Kiss Almost Alive (worst example ever of cheating).
If its a short passage, fix it with something as close to the original as possible, or even a short overdub. If you can't genuinely pull it off live then just don't.
So when is a live album not a live album?!...
:thumbsup
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I always thought four dates were important for On The Night album: May 20th and 21st at Les Arenes in Nimes, France and May 30th and 31st at the Feyenoord Stadium in the Netherlands. Brunno mentions two additional dates: May 28, 1992 and May 29, 1992. :hmm
Didn't they have a day off on May 28th?
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This all reminds me of a client I had in the studio years ago. Heavy metal band. Live recording at a local venue. When they weren't satisfied with their performance they wanted to use Drumagog to replace every drum hit from a 3 plus hour gig. Of course I told them where the nearest exit door was...
This brings us nicely on to the use of technology. I'm actually quite uncomfortable with what can be done in your average DAW now. I was one of those guys, a purist I suppose, who despised certain uses technology up to a point. Then drum machines evolved to the point where you can't tell it apart from the real deal, synthesis now gives us the perfect piano sound, brass is now perfectly imitated (Much to the disappointment of some on here ;) ), you don't even need to sing in tune anymore (Isn't melodyne brilliant!).
And of course the next step, A.I. Myself and a student recently had great fun creating a rap and using Snoop Dogg and Eminem as the main voices! But where does all this end? I can see a situation where in less than 10 years time we will see music released by AI mimicking your favorite dead artist.
Thoughts.....?
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Either way, the booklet from album has true information:
Recorded Les Arenes, Nimes, France and Feyenoord Stadium, Rotterdam, Netherlands - May 1992 :)
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This all reminds me of a client I had in the studio years ago. Heavy metal band. Live recording at a local venue. When they weren't satisfied with their performance they wanted to use Drumagog to replace every drum hit from a 3 plus hour gig. Of course I told them where the nearest exit door was...
This brings us nicely on to the use of technology. I'm actually quite uncomfortable with what can be done in your average DAW now. I was one of those guys, a purist I suppose, who despised certain uses technology up to a point. Then drum machines evolved to the point where you can't tell it apart from the real deal, synthesis now gives us the perfect piano sound, brass is now perfectly imitated (Much to the disappointment of some on here ;) ), you don't even need to sing in tune anymore (Isn't melodyne brilliant!).
And of course the next step, A.I. Myself and a student recently had great fun creating a rap and using Snoop Dogg and Eminem as the main voices! But where does all this end? I can see a situation where in less than 10 years time we will see music released by AI mimicking your favorite dead artist.
Thoughts.....?
It was your job. Not mine.
I really don't care about bands doing overbubs.
I'm saying that overdub is part of the business.
It's common by the way.
If you doesn't like to do overdubs on a live record, that's fine.
You are a purist? Yes.
The musicians that played on DS (MK included) are not The Gods from Olympus that fights against the Music Business and dont ever make overdubs, come on. Come on, its fine do some overdubs.
Kiss fake album, Frampton Comes Alive, Queen Almost Live... its part of the product.
Some of these works has push the overdubs far beyond the limit? Yes. People make fun of it? Yes.
MK and Cia made overbus? Yes
Mark needed to correct his voice on a couple of songs? Yes (ask Guy)
MK looks back? Yes
Pink Floyd's Pulse has a mix from, maybe what? 40 nights?
Is on the booklet the venue of each song.
Gimour and Cia made some overdubs? Very likely.
I really think that, if DS has recorded from 20 shows for the OTN, on the booklet should be something like Pink Floyd's Pulse. Much more honest.
The great Oz Noy, a fantastic player, said: "I made about 4 solos per music. After that i mix the very best parts to put on the record."
There is no problem with that. At All.
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A thought...
When the automobile was invented, there was people that claimed that that invention will never replace the horse.
People took this invention the the limit. What is a popular car compared to a Benz model?
People are pushing the technology to the limit, and i can tell you, the "limit" is So Far Away from us.
Cannot wait to listen a new Sinatra album with Miles Davis on trumpet completely made by A.I. It's only technology going to the limits.
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Rolo, Is it to much to expect an artist to be able to actually play live these days? if it says live it should be so. Simple.
Do you want horsemeat when the packet says bacon?
Overdubs on a large scale would be ok as long as said release had the proper disclaimers on it and said artist wasn't trying to pretend to be something else.
Sorry but I pity your future taste in music but if thats what the masses want then thats what they'll get, but tell me where is the heart, the soul in anything that is automatically generated in nano seconds inside a computer?
I can't think of anything further away from a true artistic vision.....
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Rolo, Is it to much to expect an artist to be able to actually play live these days? if it says live it should be so. Simple.
Do you want horsemeat when the packet says bacon?
Overdubs on a large scale would be ok as long as said release had the proper disclaimers on it and said artist wasn't trying to pretend to be something else.
Sorry but I pity your future taste in music but if thats what the masses want then thats what they'll get, but tell me where is the heart, the soul in anything that is automatically generated in nano seconds inside a computer?
I can't think of anything further away from a true artistic vision.....
Agree.
I prefer a live record with mistakes than a one heavily edited or with overdubs.
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Rolo, Is it to much to expect an artist to be able to actually play live these days? if it says live it should be so. Simple.
Do you want horsemeat when the packet says bacon?
Overdubs on a large scale would be ok as long as said release had the proper disclaimers on it and said artist wasn't trying to pretend to be something else.
Sorry but I pity your future taste in music but if thats what the masses want then thats what they'll get, but tell me where is the heart, the soul in anything that is automatically generated in nano seconds inside a computer?
I can't think of anything further away from a true artistic vision.....
Agree.
I prefer a live record with mistakes than a one heavily edited or with overdubs.
Not all mistakes are created equal. Mark's playing has tiny little microscopic mistakes still intact on final versions of live albums, which makes it 1) more alive and 2) impossible to recreate, even by the artist himself. I love mistakes for the latter... It adds a whole layer of mystique and uniqueness, a charm if you like.
I won't glorify live music so much though. Playing a musical instrument is just muscle memory, and recording music is just sound waves, everything else is made up by our brains. I bet no one can distinguish between overdubs and a piece of music played completely live, assuming the sound is close enough.
My favourite example is how you can grow plants by merely recreating the sunlight using multiple lamps and some heat, and voila — you replaced the sun. Because, after all, it's just electromagnetic radiation and waves of known wavelengths.
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I can assure you that all videos made on jams where I played don't have any overdubbs, it's all 100% live :lol :lol :lol ;D ;D ;D
https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/jams/
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The great Oz Noy, a fantastic player, said: "I made about 4 solos per music. After that i mix the very best parts to put on the record."
Gilmour does that for all his solos in studio
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Remembering that Mark Knopfler is the producer of the tracks "Portobello Belle-Live" and "Where do you think You're Going" present in the aforementioned 1988 MFN collection, this information appears in the album credits.
yes indeed. Mark said in an interview that he was involved a lot in the MFN comp production.
He also worked on the TBTP and TR remix (the 1988 one, not the later one ::) ;D)
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the funny thing is that I planned to write a chronicle about OTN for the anniversary of its release on May 10th, and with this thread (thanks Dusty :)) I have a lot of information and many things to talk about :thumbsup :thumbsup
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Rolo, Is it to much to expect an artist to be able to actually play live these days? if it says live it should be so. Simple.
Do you want horsemeat when the packet says bacon?
Overdubs on a large scale would be ok as long as said release had the proper disclaimers on it and said artist wasn't trying to pretend to be something else.
Sorry but I pity your future taste in music but if thats what the masses want then thats what they'll get, but tell me where is the heart, the soul in anything that is automatically generated in nano seconds inside a computer?
I can't think of anything further away from a true artistic vision.....
Agree.
I prefer a live record with mistakes than a one heavily edited or with overdubs.
Maybe, but would you want it released for all posterity as an example of your final tour?
With recording four nights I reckon they could find songs without any mistakes tbh. Back then they were playing well with barely a mistake per show, however it's a matter of how he wanted to play it rather than making mistakes. He likely thought he never nailed that solo rather than made a mistake I reckon.
Now a 2019 tour show would take about a decade to edit with clips from every show! :lol
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Rolo, Is it to much to expect an artist to be able to actually play live these days? if it says live it should be so. Simple.
Do you want horsemeat when the packet says bacon?
Overdubs on a large scale would be ok as long as said release had the proper disclaimers on it and said artist wasn't trying to pretend to be something else.
Sorry but I pity your future taste in music but if thats what the masses want then thats what they'll get, but tell me where is the heart, the soul in anything that is automatically generated in nano seconds inside a computer?
I can't think of anything further away from a true artistic vision.....
For God's sake, guys.
Seriously that we gonna speak about personal tastes now?
I said that overdubs on live records are absolutely normal.
I care about it? No.
I like fake live albuns? No
Again, overdubbing part of the business? Yes
I never said that MK made and overbub on an entire song on OTN.
I said that: Maybe because of the original sound source or another thing that made the mixing process really hard to work, maybe some of the guys had to do some (again, some) overdub.
I pointed some arguments that Frampton himself sayng that has overbubs on Frampton Comes Alive. Not because he wanted. But because it was necessary.
Brunno pointed some issues that almost proves that has some overbubs on OTN. Maybe the band recorded 10 instead 4 nights and some parts are from these 6 nights unmentioned at the booklet? I doubt it.
Chris, when i said about AI albuns, i am talking only about people taking technology to the limit. But when it comes to music, seems to me that its forbidden.
I listen to AI music? No.
I care about it? No.
It doen't affect my taste, my work or the artists that i listen.
I relly love to play live and make mistakes, take risks.
It's part of me and i'm sure you have the same passion about it.
But really, if Knopfler, Gilmour, Clapton, Schoffield, Vai, Morser, Robben made overbus, i don't care.
Now, all this started because some of us cannot believe that MK, not tha band, only MK cannot do overbuds on a live record in any circustances.
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"But really, if Knopfler, Gilmour, Clapton, Schoffield, Vai, Morser, Robben made overbus, i don't care."
Thats where you and I differ. But as I stated earlier it depends what you're overdubbing and to what extent.
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Just a tought : we are talking about the eighties right ? (and yes about mid seventies with Frampton)
but please, dont reveal to me that legendary live albums such as Woodstock, Wight, Live/Dead, ABB Filmore east, BBA in Japan, Purple in Japan, Get yer ya-ya's out, Monterey, Band of gypsys, concert for Bangladesh, Joplin in concert, Doors absolutely live, rock'n'roll animal, EC was here, Who live at Leeds, and so on... contains overdubs ?.... ??? :o :'(
I am aware that the Last waltz has a lot of editing, and of course Woodstock too, but that's not the same thing
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Just a tought : we are talking about the eighties right ? (and yes about mid seventies with Frampton)
but please, dont reveal to me that legendary live albums such as Woodstock, Wight, Live/Dead, ABB Filmore east, BBA in Japan, Purple in Japan, Get yer ya-ya's out, Monterey, Band of gypsys, concert for Bangladesh, Joplin in concert, Doors absolutely live, rock'n'roll animal, EC was here, Who live at Leeds, and so on... contains overdubs ?.... ??? :o :'(
I am aware that the Last waltz has a lot of editing, and of course Woodstock too, but that's not the same thing
I'd say never believe ANYTHING that's recorded on any media whatsoever... Who knows what they did to any of these fine live albums?
Fun fact: I believe in this video people start clapping and cheering at the 2-minute mark not because Sade pulls her jacket off, but because for the first half of the song her microphone or monitors simply won't work and the audience won't hear anything up to this point in the performance. Better to leave it "as is", or fix it in the post?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwDjJP_l5AY
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Well the debate has different scope.
Is OTN only a composite of several LIVE edited recordings or are there studio ovberdubs ?
I still have doubts about studio overdubs because I hav eno definitive proof it has been done like that.
I can't say where MK himself at the time was putting the red line.
But I can think that hewas still ready to do some compromise : leave the little errors but would he be ready to let a big mistake on a record ?
We fan are ready to get big mistake an,d make fun of but for a record that you will selle to several thousand and even million copies, that is should represent a tour souvenir for people I have good faith that MK himself would naturally agree to fix it. Plus the management, plus the record company.
We experienced it ourself for the official MP3 from MK solo tours, the nights were serious problem occured the song was replaced with one form other nights.
So the question remains for the audio live fix only or not?
When tlaking about Marks integrity I admit I would be surprised to learn that most/full of YLT guitar solo was rerecorded in studio. I mean, and I reckon I can be wrong, that is not a thing Mark would go so far without thinking he crosses the line. That the second part of the debate, the lack of video recording.
In a perferct world a live album issued on video would be one nite only.
In a less perfect a composite of several videoed night.
In an imperfect world, feturing audio that were not recorded the same night as the images.
In a business ruled world featuring video and audio overdubbed in studio filming and recording.
If you have seen Paul Mc Cartney Paul Is Live – The New World Tour released in 1994 the video show actual image of the composite filmed nights and I found it unwatchable.
I just can't stand to see Paul wearing 3 very differents shirts durint a single song...
I think as a spectator I need to get at least on a song a single night video.
This the reason why I switched to the Charlotte live TV broadcast.
The Rolling Stones in 1990 had the same problem as Dire Straits filming Alchemy : close up
Because they were doing it in Imax format, the camera used were bigger and would obstructing view on stage.
So the second Turin show on July 29 was cancelled and the Rolling Stones perfomed live that night in front of a deserted stadium allowing the big video camera doing the close up...
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It is clear to me that if there are parts in the OTN audio that are not contained in any of the 4 shows used to assemble the OTN, I am talking about guitar licks and interpretation of MK's vocals, if they are NOT present in the available recordings of these shows used to assemble the OTN, I can only understand that they are overdubs. There are liks of guiatarra in CE that aren't in any Bootlegs, I'm sure of that, and if you analyze it more deeply, going to different songs, you can find the same thing. That "hey, alright..." at the beginning of CE was added in the studio after editing, they edited the joke they always did in the intro of MFN, as well as the drum solo at the end. Anyway, as an official record of the band's last tour, OTN left a lot to be desired, it failed to reveal the least of a real experience of a typical OES tour show, in my opinion, the same happens with Alchemy, Bootlegs have this advantage , without them our conception of the band would be limited, it is a pity that until today this has never been repaired by the band in releasing less modest and more robust material.
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I don't remember
1) every shows from the OES tour are available in bootleg.
2) getting any serious source providing a complete list of which show have been recorded.
We known for Paris 1992 but I can assume there was more.
So hard to say that none of the recorded show during the OES tour have provided the fixes.
That will remains a mystery for some time to come.
But my main concern is not OTN, this is the past.
My main concern is the no absence of project by both MK and Mercury to issue an extended audio box from that tour.
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I don't remember
1) every shows from the OES tour are available in bootleg.
2) getting any serious source providing a complete list of which show have been recorded.
We known for Paris 1992 but I can assume there was more.
So hard to say that none of the recorded show during the OES tour have provided the fixes.
That will remains a mystery for some time to come.
But my main concern is not OTN, this is the past.
My main concern is the no absence of project by both MK and Mercury to issue an extended audio box from that tour.
They recorded the Rotterdam and Nimes shows in May, plus the Paris ones that apparently were not used by technical issues when recording the shows.
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Tracks contained in the show On the Night and from which shows they were chosen to assemble this album:
1-Calling Elvis
2-Walk of life
3-Heavy fuel
4-Romeo and Juliet
5-The bug
6-Private investigations
7-Your latest trick
8-On every street
9-You and your friend
10-Money for nothing
11-Brothers in arms
12-Solid rock
13-Wild theme
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20.05.92 [3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8]
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21.05.92 [1]
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 30.05.92 [,2,13]
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92 [9, 10, 11, 12]
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20. 05.92
http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/200592.htm (http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/200592.htm)
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21. 05.92
http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/210592.htm (http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/210592.htm)
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 30.05.92
http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/300592.htm (http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/300592.htm)
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92
http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/310592.htm (http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/310592.htm)
As you can see most of the songs are taken from the show in Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20.05.92*, six songs, then the show in Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92 with four songs.
There's the "map", just go to the recordings of these Bootlegs and compare them with the tracks on OTN, then we can see the points where there are overdubs. I did this a few years ago and I arrived at my conclusions based not on what Guy reported, but on the best sources we have, on the recordings that some lucky person recorded from the audience, a testimony, a document that reveals what actually happened, with that, only those who want to are fooled!
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Tracks contained in the show On the Night and from which shows they were chosen to assemble this album:
1-Calling Elvis
2-Walk of life
3-Heavy fuel
4-Romeo and Juliet
5-The bug
6-Private investigations
7-Your latest trick
8-On every street
9-You and your friend
10-Money for nothing
11-Brothers in arms
12-Solid rock
13-Wild theme
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20.05.92 [3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8]
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21.05.92 [1]
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 30.05.92 [,2,13]
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92 [9, 10, 11, 12]
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20. 05.92
http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/200592.htm (http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/200592.htm)
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21. 05.92
http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/210592.htm (http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/210592.htm)
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 30.05.92
http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/300592.htm (http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/300592.htm)
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92
http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/310592.htm (http://www.oneverybootleg.nl/310592.htm)
As you can see most of the songs are taken from the show in Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20.05.92*, six songs, then the show in Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92 with four songs.
There's the "map", just go to the recordings of these Bootlegs and compare them with the tracks on OTN, then we can see the points where there are overdubs. I did this a few years ago and I arrived at my conclusions based not on what Guy reported, but on the best sources we have, on the recordings that some lucky person recorded from the audience, a testimony, a document that reveals what actually happened, with that, only those who want to are fooled!
Although the OTN CD insert has the information that CE was recorded in Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21.05.92, in the video it works in a different way, EC of OTN performance video is a mix of scenes from Nimes and Feyenoord Stadium. The audio is basically a tremendous edit, a lot of mixes here, a lot of audio is from Nimes FRA 21. 05.92, but a lot of other parts are a lot of unknown mixes.
The edition made for CE for OTN shortened the song a little, much of the second solo that precedes the duet of drums and percussion was taken from Nimes FRA 21.05.92, (video and audio) listening to this bootleg you can see that and more other things interesting things like: the duet of drums and percussion is different on the bootleg, some guitar passages that precede the moment of this duet were not used for the OTN version, they were simply omitted.
I made comparisons between the OTN CL with the Audio CL of Bootlegs Nimes FRA 21.05.92 and Rotterdam, Netherlands 5/31/1992, to complement my research and reach this conclusion.
I published an article where I show more details of my research, here is the link for those interested in checking it out.
http://universodirestraits.blogspot.com/2021/06/calling-elvis-on-night-performance.html?m=1 (http://universodirestraits.blogspot.com/2021/06/calling-elvis-on-night-performance.html?m=1)
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Its an interesting analysis Bruno. I Still think given the cumbersome nature of editing these shows (no Daws in 1990!) and the actual comments from Guy that these edits are far more likely 'flown in' from other sources. Lots of those shows were recorded and just thrown in archive, plus I wouldn't mind betting that even the sound checks were recorded!
I have 2 questions for you.
Given the way OTN was spliced together can we really regard it as a genuine live album? It seems to me to be in a class of its own as I can find few bands that took this approach (Rush is the only other example I could find).
And
Given that Guy himself has clearly said no studio overdubs, what evidence would it take for you to change your opinion?
As an afterthought, at least we can agree that OTN was innovative in its approach!
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Its an interesting analysis Bruno. I Still think given the cumbersome nature of editing these shows (no Daws in 1990!) and the actual comments from Guy that these edits are far more likely 'flown in' from other sources. Lots of those shows were recorded and just thrown in archive, plus I wouldn't mind betting that even the sound checks were recorded!
I have 2 questions for you.
Given the way OTN was spliced together can we really regard it as a genuine live album? It seems to me to be in a class of its own as I can find few bands that took this approach (Rush is the only other example I could find).
And
Given that Guy himself has clearly said no studio overdubs, what evidence would it take for you to change your opinion?
As an afterthought, at least we can agree that OTN was innovative in its approach!
Not to mention matching the tone from a big arena in a studio, which is virtually impossible - before DAWs even existed as you pointed out. Just think of the variables… Mark himself said he never managed to get that MFN exact same tone, with the same rig and in the same studio! Hard to explain that, you gotta experience that to understand.
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Its an interesting analysis Bruno. I still think given the cumbersome nature of editing these shows (no Daws in 1990!) and the actual comments from Guy that these edits are far more likely to 'flown in' from other sources. Lots of those shows were recorded and just thrown in archive, plus I wouldn't mind betting that even the sound checks were recorded!
I have 2 questions for you.
Given the way OTN was spliced together can we really regard it as a genuine live album? It seems to me to be in a class of its own as I can find a few bands that took this approach (Rush is the only other example I could find).
And
Given that Guy himself has clearly said no studio overdubs, what evidence would it take for you to change your opinion?
As an afterthought, at least we can agree that OTN was innovative in its approach!
Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed my review and research.
As far as edits coming from another source, we basically have most of this tour documented through dozens of Bootlegs recordings.
Answering his question, 1- I would say genuine, no, Alchemy is more genuine in that sense, OTN ends up sinning by bringing the aspects I mentioned above, especially the CE track, whose audio is almost entirely in
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21.05.92, with the duet of drums and percussion of unknown origin and the video is a true mixture of at least two different dates, in two different places, this makes it too artificial. But the biggest sin of OTN is the same sin of Alchemy, the songs that were left out, from the historical point of view it is a sacrilege, because it does not leave for posterity an experience close to a concert of that historical moment of the band, of course I am aware that this vision of mine is part of the minority of consumers.
2- The evidence that would make me change my mind about overdubs would simply be if what was present on OTN was exactly the same as the original source, ie where did that, "Hey, Alright..." at the beginning of CL come from? Where did the audio for the drum and percussion duet in CE come from? None of the recordings are mentioned as sources for creating OTN. There are still some elements in YLT that need to be further analyzed.
Yes, I agree that OTN was innovative in its approach. Which Rush show took this approach? Exit Stage Left? (I love Rush).
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Its an interesting analysis Bruno. I Still think given the cumbersome nature of editing these shows (no Daws in 1990!) and the actual comments from Guy that these edits are far more likely 'flown in' from other sources. Lots of those shows were recorded and just thrown in archive, plus I wouldn't mind betting that even the sound checks were recorded!
I have 2 questions for you.
Given the way OTN was spliced together can we really regard it as a genuine live album? It seems to me to be in a class of its own as I can find few bands that took this approach (Rush is the only other example I could find).
And
Given that Guy himself has clearly said no studio overdubs, what evidence would it take for you to change your opinion?
As an afterthought, at least we can agree that OTN was innovative in its approach!
Not to mention matching the tone from a big arena in a studio, which is virtually impossible - before DAWs even existed as you pointed out. Just think of the variables… Mark himself said he never managed to get that MFN exact same tone, with the same rig and in the same studio! Hard to explain that, you gotta experience that to understand.
Do you remember the early digital recorders Eddie? 24 character ascii display, your window into the digital world!
Makes me cringe thinking about working with those things, and also (regardless of what you think of OTN) makes Guys actual work on the project all the more commendable.
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I just finished an analysis where I went into other songs besides CE, I found out once again the origin of each OTN song and in fact it is as I had found out a few years ago:
1-Calling Elvis
2-Walk of life
3-Heavy fuel
4-Romeo and Juliet
5-The bug
6-Private investigations
7-Your latest trick
8-On every street
9-You and your friend
10-Money for nothing
11-Brothers in arms
12-Solid rock
13-Wild theme
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20.05.92 [3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8]
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21.05.92 [1]
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 30.05.92 [,2,13]
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92 [9, 10, 11, 12]
I listened song by song from these respective shows above, the exception is some subtleties, small nuances in CE which was actually in Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21.05.92, the difference is that line of Mark greeting the audience with, "hey, alright! !!", Something they took from somewhere and put in the OTN edition, in no recording of these Bootleg there is this line at the beginning of CE or in another song, even in CE, the duet of drums and percussion is different in the bootleg,( so, the origin of this percussion and drums duet is still a mystery) there are also some guitar passages that precede the moment of this duet that were cut in the OTN edition. The track You Lastet Trick was actually recorded in Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20.05.92, along with tracks 3, 4, 5, 6, and 8, however, there are some sounds in the intro with the percussion in the bootleg recording that differ a bit of what ended up on OTN, the vocal interpretation is the same, the guitar I'm still not sure, there seems to be something strange that needs more analysis, (whoever is willing to listen to the version of You Lastet Trick on the bootleg, Nimes FRA 20.05. 92, and analyzing with me, will be excellent, I noticed sounds a little different in the introduction of percussion and drums, as I mentioned.) It's interesting to see what was left out of OTN in MFN in Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05. Mark probably doesn't think it's necessary to put that joke that the band always made in the intro, it's a shame it didn't pass, and also the end with Chris's little drum solo.
Funny the order here 8-On every street
9-You and your friend, when OES is after YAYFA in the Feyenoord bootleg, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92, as OES from OTN was in Nimes FRA 20.05.92, they chose to leave it like this, I would have left it: Your latest trick, You and your friend, On every street and Money for nothing, (remembering that between OES and MFN there are Two Young Lovers and Telegraph Road).
There is a short speech by Mark before starting YAYF that was omitted from OTN.
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Its an interesting analysis Bruno. I still think given the cumbersome nature of editing these shows (no Daws in 1990!) and the actual comments from Guy that these edits are far more likely to 'flown in' from other sources. Lots of those shows were recorded and just thrown in archive, plus I wouldn't mind betting that even the sound checks were recorded!
I have 2 questions for you.
Given the way OTN was spliced together can we really regard it as a genuine live album? It seems to me to be in a class of its own as I can find a few bands that took this approach (Rush is the only other example I could find).
And
Given that Guy himself has clearly said no studio overdubs, what evidence would it take for you to change your opinion?
As an afterthought, at least we can agree that OTN was innovative in its approach!
Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed my review and research.
As far as edits coming from another source, we basically have most of this tour documented through dozens of Bootlegs recordings.
Answering his question, 1- I would say genuine, no, Alchemy is more genuine in that sense, OTN ends up sinning by bringing the aspects I mentioned above, especially the CE track, whose audio is almost entirely in
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21.05.92, with the duet of drums and percussion of unknown origin and the video is a true mixture of at least two different dates, in two different places, this makes it too artificial. But the biggest sin of OTN is the same sin of Alchemy, the songs that were left out, from the historical point of view it is a sacrilege, because it does not leave for posterity an experience close to a concert of that historical moment of the band, of course I am aware that this vision of mine is part of the minority of consumers.
2- The evidence that would make me change my mind about overdubs would simply be if what was present on OTN was exactly the same as the original source, ie where did that, "Hey, Alright..." at the beginning of CL come from? Where did the audio for the drum and percussion duet in CE come from? None of the recordings are mentioned as sources for creating OTN. There are still some elements in YLT that need to be further analyzed.
Yes, I agree that OTN was innovative in its approach. Which Rush show took this approach? Exit Stage Left? (I love Rush).
Hi Bruno, yep exit stage left, and some others. They've well and truly owned up to it though! And what they did was again a similar approach to OTN. Parachuting different parts from different nights/sources....
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A little off topic
They've always needed a band historian to help process accurate information for their releases, there's always a bit of information missing, moving now to Live at The BBC, released 1995, it's about some songs from a show on 22.07 .1978 Paris Theater Lower Regent Street London UK and the last track, TOL, 19.12.1980 Rockpop, Westfahlenhalle Dortmund Germany, however, some strange things happen: The insert has the wrong information, Track 8 Live on "The Old Gray Whistle Test" 01/31/81, that this tv program was not even on that date mentioned in the insert, but on 29th November 1980.
The order of the first 7 songs is wrong and it's funny how they missed Six Blade Knife here, I love this version but Mark gets the lyrics wrong, he just forgets the part: "Took a stone from my soul when I was lame
Just so you could make me tame, yes
You take away my mind like you take away the top of a tin", something hilarious. I know that the band had no direct involvement with this release, it was a contractual matter from the record company to release something from the band, Mark already had his mind to start his solo career at this point, too bad that Live at The BBC is more of a live release that could have been more relevant if it came with all the songs, this is a kind of curse present in all official live releases of the band and part of the unofficial ones, like Dortmund 80, Werchter Festival 81 and Wembley 85. :smack Even the final solo of the SOS clip was cut, a sacrilege, :smack Mark missed the first solo of SOS at Rockpalast 79 and with that we were left without a video of Southbound Again and Angel of Mercy, because he decided to play SOS again, hehehe... Things only DS fans experience... ;D
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I just finished an analysis where I went into other songs besides CE, I found out once again the origin of each OTN song and in fact it is as I had found out a few years ago:
1-Calling Elvis
2-Walk of life
3-Heavy fuel
4-Romeo and Juliet
5-The bug
6-Private investigations
7-Your latest trick
8-On every street
9-You and your friend
10-Money for nothing
11-Brothers in arms
12-Solid rock
13-Wild theme
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20.05.92 [3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8]
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21.05.92 [1]
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 30.05.92 [,2,13]
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92 [9, 10, 11, 12]
I listened song by song from these respective shows above, the exception is some subtleties, small nuances in CE which was actually in Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21.05.92, the difference is that line of Mark greeting the audience with, "hey, alright! !!", Something they took from somewhere and put in the OTN edition, in no recording of these Bootleg there is this line at the beginning of CE or in another song, even in CE, the duet of drums and percussion is different in the bootleg,( so, the origin of this percussion and drums duet is still a mystery) there are also some guitar passages that precede the moment of this duet that were cut in the OTN edition. The track You Lastet Trick was actually recorded in Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20.05.92, along with tracks 3, 4, 5, 6, and 8, however, there are some sounds in the intro with the percussion in the bootleg recording that differ a bit of what ended up on OTN, the vocal interpretation is the same, the guitar I'm still not sure, there seems to be something strange that needs more analysis, (whoever is willing to listen to the version of You Lastet Trick on the bootleg, Nimes FRA 20.05. 92, and analyzing with me, will be excellent, I noticed sounds a little different in the introduction of percussion and drums, as I mentioned.) It's interesting to see what was left out of OTN in MFN in Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05. Mark probably doesn't think it's necessary to put that joke that the band always made in the intro, it's a shame it didn't pass, and also the end with Chris's little drum solo.
Funny the order here 8-On every street
9-You and your friend, when OES is after YAYFA in the Feyenoord bootleg, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92, as OES from OTN was in Nimes FRA 20.05.92, they chose to leave it like this, I would have left it: Your latest trick, You and your friend, On every street and Money for nothing, (remembering that between OES and MFN there are Two Young Lovers and Telegraph Road).
There is a short speech by Mark before starting YAYF that was omitted from OTN.
Your research is extensive and commendable, and I hate to throw a spanner in the works, but didn't they also record audio from the Paris shows in April if they needed it for dubbing?
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Does this topic also apply to the A Night In London and Real Live Roadrunning concert? ;)
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Does this topic also apply to the A Night In London and Real Live Roadrunning concert? ;)
I think, yes. Recently, I transcribed Mark's solo in "Romeo And Juliet" from Real Live Roadruning, and in one moment I am positive it's impossible to play with the position of Mark's hand, and naturally, he's framed from behind. Never trust your eyes, only trust your ears! If it sounds good, then it's good. And live album is never live, it's a ZOMBIE! ;D
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Does this topic also apply to the A Night In London and Real Live Roadrunning concert? ;)
I think, yes. Recently, I transcribed Mark's solo in "Romeo And Juliet" from Real Live Roadruning, and in one moment I am positive it's impossible to play with the position of Mark's hand, and naturally, he's framed from behind. Never trust your eyes, only trust your ears! If it sounds good, then it's good. And live album is never live, it's a ZOMBIE! ;D
I sense irony :)
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I just finished an analysis where I went into other songs besides CE, I found out once again the origin of each OTN song and in fact it is as I had found out a few years ago:
1-Calling Elvis
2-Walk of life
3-Heavy fuel
4-Romeo and Juliet
5-The bug
6-Private investigations
7-Your latest trick
8-On every street
9-You and your friend
10-Money for nothing
11-Brothers in arms
12-Solid rock
13-Wild theme
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20.05.92 [3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8]
Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21.05.92 [1]
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 30.05.92 [,2,13]
Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92 [9, 10, 11, 12]
I listened song by song from these respective shows above, the exception is some subtleties, small nuances in CE which was actually in Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 21.05.92, the difference is that line of Mark greeting the audience with, "hey, alright! !!", Something they took from somewhere and put in the OTN edition, in no recording of these Bootleg there is this line at the beginning of CE or in another song, even in CE, the duet of drums and percussion is different in the bootleg,( so, the origin of this percussion and drums duet is still a mystery) there are also some guitar passages that precede the moment of this duet that were cut in the OTN edition. The track You Lastet Trick was actually recorded in Les Arenes, Nimes FRA 20.05.92, along with tracks 3, 4, 5, 6, and 8, however, there are some sounds in the intro with the percussion in the bootleg recording that differ a bit of what ended up on OTN, the vocal interpretation is the same, the guitar I'm still not sure, there seems to be something strange that needs more analysis, (whoever is willing to listen to the version of You Lastet Trick on the bootleg, Nimes FRA 20.05. 92, and analyzing with me, will be excellent, I noticed sounds a little different in the introduction of percussion and drums, as I mentioned.) It's interesting to see what was left out of OTN in MFN in Feyenoord, Rotterdam HOL 31.05. Mark probably doesn't think it's necessary to put that joke that the band always made in the intro, it's a shame it didn't pass, and also the end with Chris's little drum solo.
Funny the order here 8-On every street
9-You and your friend, when OES is after YAYFA in the Feyenoord bootleg, Rotterdam HOL 31.05.92, as OES from OTN was in Nimes FRA 20.05.92, they chose to leave it like this, I would have left it: Your latest trick, You and your friend, On every street and Money for nothing, (remembering that between OES and MFN there are Two Young Lovers and Telegraph Road).
There is a short speech by Mark before starting YAYF that was omitted from OTN.
Your research is extensive and commendable, and I hate to throw a spanner in the works, but didn't they also record audio from the Paris shows in April if they needed it for dubbing?
But they didn't use it as Paris recordings were damaged by technical issues.
-
Does this topic also apply to the A Night In London and Real Live Roadrunning concert? ;)
I think, yes. Recently, I transcribed Mark's solo in "Romeo And Juliet" from Real Live Roadruning, and in one moment I am positive it's impossible to play with the position of Mark's hand, and naturally, he's framed from behind. Never trust your eyes, only trust your ears! If it sounds good, then it's good. And live album is never live, it's a ZOMBIE! ;D
Same thing happens during the firsts licks during Calling Elvis on OTN. The band was filmed from behind.
During the 'Hey Alright' at the beginning of the concert, the frame is 100 meters awat from the band.
I didn't find the 20.05.92 concert to check out the lick.
I believe that Real Live Roadrunning have no overbubs. Some mistaked are on the record (like the wrong notes at Right Now).
I don't know how many nights were recorded.
For 'A Night In London', I believe that was Richard Bennet that mention that some songs were been played 4 times at the same evening. Even that they keeped that big mistake that Glenn Worf made on R&J. He mistaken the chord sequence during the chorus or something i guess.
I opened a concert for a 'DVD Recording' of a band.
The 'concert' had almost 6 or 7 hours.
Same thing happens
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Its an interesting analysis Bruno. I Still think given the cumbersome nature of editing these shows (no Daws in 1990!) and the actual comments from Guy that these edits are far more likely 'flown in' from other sources. Lots of those shows were recorded and just thrown in archive, plus I wouldn't mind betting that even the sound checks were recorded!
I have 2 questions for you.
Given the way OTN was spliced together can we really regard it as a genuine live album? It seems to me to be in a class of its own as I can find few bands that took this approach (Rush is the only other example I could find).
And
Given that Guy himself has clearly said no studio overdubs, what evidence would it take for you to change your opinion?
As an afterthought, at least we can agree that OTN was innovative in its approach!
Not to mention matching the tone from a big arena in a studio, which is virtually impossible - before DAWs even existed as you pointed out. Just think of the variables… Mark himself said he never managed to get that MFN exact same tone, with the same rig and in the same studio! Hard to explain that, you gotta experience that to understand.
Do you remember the early digital recorders Eddie? 24 character ascii display, your window into the digital world!
Makes me cringe thinking about working with those things, and also (regardless of what you think of OTN) makes Guys actual work on the project all the more commendable.
My first studio work was recorded on tape, eight channels for a four-piece band plus vocals… that was a nightmare. I can’t really remember how was the mixing process but I think it was mastered digitally. It was 2001 if I’m not mistaken. Man, recording has come a long way.
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Its an interesting analysis Bruno. I Still think given the cumbersome nature of editing these shows (no Daws in 1990!) and the actual comments from Guy that these edits are far more likely 'flown in' from other sources. Lots of those shows were recorded and just thrown in archive, plus I wouldn't mind betting that even the sound checks were recorded!
I have 2 questions for you.
Given the way OTN was spliced together can we really regard it as a genuine live album? It seems to me to be in a class of its own as I can find few bands that took this approach (Rush is the only other example I could find).
And
Given that Guy himself has clearly said no studio overdubs, what evidence would it take for you to change your opinion?
As an afterthought, at least we can agree that OTN was innovative in its approach!
Not to mention matching the tone from a big arena in a studio, which is virtually impossible - before DAWs even existed as you pointed out. Just think of the variables… Mark himself said he never managed to get that MFN exact same tone, with the same rig and in the same studio! Hard to explain that, you gotta experience that to understand.
Do you remember the early digital recorders Eddie? 24 character ascii display, your window into the digital world!
Makes me cringe thinking about working with those things, and also (regardless of what you think of OTN) makes Guys actual work on the project all the more commendable.
My first studio work was recorded on tape, eight channels for a four-piece band plus vocals… that was a nightmare. I can’t really remember how was the mixing process but I think it was mastered digitally. It was 2001 if I’m not mistaken. Man, recording has come a long way.
Tape, now thats another beast completely and another medium that producers working with deserve more praise than they ever get. I mean imagine the skill required for precise edits, and Of course nerves of steel!
We've got it easy these days.
Definitely not non destructive editing..... :)
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What technical problem occured for Paris 1992 ?
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What technical problem occured for Paris 1992 ?
Cant remember, I read it long ago, that something happened with those tapes and they were not able to use them.
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Maybe my interpretation is wrong.
But, Robben is overdubbing a Live album?
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CrltzfqpcnV/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
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You can overdub a live album if you want, especially nowadays with all these crazy technologies that are available for everyone. What you cannot do is, for example, leave some live guitar licks in and replace others with studio overdubs. You either delete what you don’t like and leave it as is or throw away the entire thing (guitar track in this case) and record it all over again. It’s virtually impossible to get the same tone, it would be pretty noticeable if you use both recordings pretending to be the same guitar work.
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You can overdub a live album if you want, especially nowadays with all these crazy technologies that are available for everyone. What you cannot do is, for example, leave some live guitar licks in and replace others with studio overdubs. You either delete what you don’t like and leave it as is or throw away the entire thing (guitar track in this case) and record it all over again. It’s virtually impossible to get the same tone, it would be pretty noticeable if you use both recordings pretending to be the same guitar work.
Are you sure about it?
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Yes, unless some new technology has been released over the last 24 hours lol
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Yes, unless some new technology has been released over the last 24 hours lol
:thumbsup
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Here is my chronicle :
https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/il-y-a-30-ans-sortait-le-live-on-the-night-de-dire-straits/
nothing new for you, but I put a link to this discussion :)
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Here is my chronicle :
https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/il-y-a-30-ans-sortait-le-live-on-the-night-de-dire-straits/
nothing new for you, but I put a link to this discussion :)
:thumbsup
Hard to believe. It's been 30 years.
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Here is my chronicle :
https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/il-y-a-30-ans-sortait-le-live-on-the-night-de-dire-straits/
nothing new for you, but I put a link to this discussion :)
I really enjoyed it, merci!
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Here is my chronicle :
https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/il-y-a-30-ans-sortait-le-live-on-the-night-de-dire-straits/
nothing new for you, but I put a link to this discussion :)
I really enjoyed it, merci!
Thanks Dusty, some interesting thoughts there...
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Here is my chronicle :
https://textes-blog-rock-n-roll.fr/il-y-a-30-ans-sortait-le-live-on-the-night-de-dire-straits/
nothing new for you, but I put a link to this discussion :)
Also worth mentioning is the great album cover by Roger Ressmeyer. The huge radio telescope dishes of the Very Large Array (VLA), situated on the plains of San Agustin 50 miles west of Socorro, New Mexico.
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Respectfully disagree about it being a great album cover. It's just a random picture of satellite dishes, doesn't really mean anything to me.
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That said. the VLA is featured in the movie 2010: The Year We Make Contact.
I used to like that film as a kid. In my view it works on its own as a stand alone movie but suffers in comparison to 2001: A Space Odyssey. Strangely, it seems the film is completely forgotten these days, I never see it on TV. Last time I saw it was on VHS over 30 years ago...
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Respectfully disagree about it being a great album cover. It's just a random picture of satellite dishes, doesn't really mean anything to me.
+1
that's why I didn't mention it in my chronicle
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Respectfully disagree about it being a great album cover. It's just a random picture of satellite dishes, doesn't really mean anything to me.
+1
that's why I didn't mention it in my chronicle
But it sort of stand out from the crowd of your typical live album covers. As usual for Mark, it obviously doesn't contain any faces, even on the back side you only have a shot of musicians from behind. And I welcome any Astronomy allusions in the word of music since they literally broadcasted this music into the cosmos, and it's still travelling somewhere down the (space) road, almost immortalised in a way.
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Respectfully disagree about it being a great album cover. It's just a random picture of satellite dishes, doesn't really mean anything to me.
+1
that's why I didn't mention it in my chronicle
But it sort of stand out from the crowd of your typical live album covers. As usual for Mark, it obviously doesn't contain any faces, even on the back side you only have a shot of musicians from behind. And I welcome any Astronomy allusions in the word of music since they literally broadcasted this music into the cosmos, and it's still travelling somewhere down the (space) road, almost immortalised in a way.
Exactly! The photo may be random but I like it very much. Photography is not random if it starts to tell us our personal story. :)
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I prefer BiA and OES where there is a guitar. I think the solo albums, for the most part, have upped the game as well in terms of overall design quality (the last one being a notable exception).
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I agree that OTN cover is pretty random and even is a nice picture it doesn't make sense at all.
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I prefer BiA and OES where there is a guitar. I think the solo albums, for the most part, have upped the game as well in terms of overall design quality (the last one being a notable exception).
:)
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This is a cool pic of Mark in the studio in front of, now vintage, Hi-Fi-Studio-components. Cool to see such technical devices. :thumbsup
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I still don't understand what happened with Planet of New Orleans. It got misteriously dropped on the tour's second leg, yet it showcased the band at its best, with some really ambitious playing by MK.
I have the theory that Mark was not really comfortable with these chord changes and some of the nights it was kind of a hit or miss, the solo didnt' allowed his "autopilot" mode. There's kind of a higher error rate on the recordings - just check these last Bercy renditions - and MK is not known for making mistakes. Still, the fresher tune, really well suited for the 9 piece band.
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I still don't understand what happened with Planet of New Orleans. It got misteriously dropped on the tour's second leg, yet it showcased the band at its best, with some really ambitious playing by MK.
I have the theory that Mark was not really comfortable with these chord changes and some of the nights it was kind of a hit or miss, the solo didnt' allowed his "autopilot" mode. There's kind of a higher error rate on the recordings - just check these last Bercy renditions - and MK is not known for making mistakes. Still, the fresher tune, really well suited for the 9 piece band.
Same situation with Silvertown Blues in 2019
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I still don't understand what happened with Planet of New Orleans. It got misteriously dropped on the tour's second leg, yet it showcased the band at its best, with some really ambitious playing by MK.
I have the theory that Mark was not really comfortable with these chord changes and some of the nights it was kind of a hit or miss, the solo didnt' allowed his "autopilot" mode. There's kind of a higher error rate on the recordings - just check these last Bercy renditions - and MK is not known for making mistakes. Still, the fresher tune, really well suited for the 9 piece band.
Same situation with Silvertown Blues in 2019
I think Silvertown is different; that one involves some playing and singing at the same time and it doesn't really come off as it does on the album.
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I still don't understand what happened with Planet of New Orleans. It got misteriously dropped on the tour's second leg, yet it showcased the band at its best, with some really ambitious playing by MK.
I have the theory that Mark was not really comfortable with these chord changes and some of the nights it was kind of a hit or miss, the solo didnt' allowed his "autopilot" mode. There's kind of a higher error rate on the recordings - just check these last Bercy renditions - and MK is not known for making mistakes. Still, the fresher tune, really well suited for the 9 piece band.
Same situation with Silvertown Blues in 2019
PONO is way trickier than Silvertown, harmonically speaking. Silvertown is in a very well known key for Mark, he was just under-rehearsed and out of form.
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Maybe it would be a good idea to direct the discussion about CE on OTN here, instead of developing a further topic about the box launching on 11/03/23.
The documentary 24 Heures portrays the show in 24.04.1992, Palais Omnisports de Bercy, Paris France, is the first of seven consecutive nights at Palais Omnisports de Bercy Paris, at 10:36 Mark uses the greeting present in the CE recordings on OTN, the same occurs in all 7 recordings at the Palais Omnisports de Bercy, Paris France, I was checking, but in none of the shows theoretically used for the OTN does Mark do the salute this way, (Nimes and Rotterdam). Note that at approximately 12:00 min of the video it shows a mobile studio, they are recording the show, this is a precious trace that the show was recorded by the band, probably the other six nights at Palais Omnisports de Bercy, Paris France as well. With this material in hand, they created the OTN, adding the shows in Nimes and Rotterdam and that CE has something from those nights in Paris, such as the greeting. However, I found that most of the audio is from Nimes FRA 21.05.92 and other small parts from Rotterdam 31.05.92. The parts that don't fit are either from shows that we don't have access to like the first and last night in Rotterdam, or they were prepared in some way in the studio.
https://youtu.be/dMu4xu1zu0U?si=yxsorbQwoWeaxcRD (https://youtu.be/dMu4xu1zu0U?si=yxsorbQwoWeaxcRD)
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Maybe it would be a good idea to direct the discussion about CE on OTN here, instead of developing a further topic about the box launching on 11/03/23.
The documentary 24 Heures portrays the show in 24.04.1992, Palais Omnisports de Bercy, Paris France, is the first of seven consecutive nights at Palais Omnisports de Bercy Paris, at 10:36 Mark uses the greeting present in the CE recordings on OTN, the same occurs in all 7 recordings at the Palais Omnisports de Bercy, Paris France, I was checking, but in none of the shows theoretically used for the OTN does Mark do the salute this way, (Nimes and Rotterdam). Note that at approximately 12:00 min of the video it shows a mobile studio, they are recording the show, this is a precious trace that the show was recorded by the band, probably the other six nights at Palais Omnisports de Bercy, Paris France as well. With this material in hand, they created the OTN, adding the shows in Nimes and Rotterdam and that CE has something from those nights in Paris, such as the greeting. However, I found that most of the audio is from Nimes FRA 21.05.92 and other small parts from Rotterdam 31.05.92. The parts that don't fit are either from shows that we don't have access to like the first and last night in Rotterdam, or they were prepared in some way in the studio.
https://youtu.be/dMu4xu1zu0U?si=yxsorbQwoWeaxcRD (https://youtu.be/dMu4xu1zu0U?si=yxsorbQwoWeaxcRD)
We don't have audience recordings of all the nights in Nimes and Rotterdam, so that greeting could comes from any of those missing concerts.
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FWIW.....
I don't remember thinking that Paris was going to be recorded for the live album. However I have pictures of producer Neil Dorfsman setting up and adjusting mics in Paris. Maybe I thought it was a practice run. Anyway, no doubt those Paris shows were recorded.
The shows in Nimes and Rotterdam were filmed, so I was aware that the audio recording would have to be good in order to be used in the live movie.
I don't think it's that big a deal.
Every single show, from the first to the last, was professionally recorded on the McCartney world tour, including sound checks.
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FWIW.....
I don't remember thinking that Paris was going to be recorded for the live album. However I have pictures of producer Neil Dorfsman setting up and adjusting mics in Paris. Maybe I thought it was a practice run. Anyway, no doubt those Paris shows were recorded.
The shows in Nimes and Rotterdam were filmed, so I was aware that the audio recording would have to be good in order to be used in the live movie.
I don't think it's that big a deal.
Every single show, from the first to the last, was professionally recorded on the McCartney world tour, including sound checks.
The tour itineraries said on each page of the Paris Bercy gigs that were being recorded, if you still have them and are on hand, you can check them, but I have them and I can assure you it says to each Bercy concert that was being recorded. Obviously this was many many years ago, it's normal you don't remember it, we're fans, that's our work, LOL
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Maybe it would be a good idea to direct the discussion about CE on OTN here, instead of developing a further topic about the box launching on 11/03/23.
The documentary 24 Heures portrays the show in 24.04.1992, Palais Omnisports de Bercy, Paris France, is the first of seven consecutive nights at Palais Omnisports de Bercy Paris, at 10:36 Mark uses the greeting present in the CE recordings on OTN, the same occurs in all 7 recordings at the Palais Omnisports de Bercy, Paris France, I was checking, but in none of the shows theoretically used for the OTN does Mark do the salute this way, (Nimes and Rotterdam). Note that at approximately 12:00 min of the video it shows a mobile studio, they are recording the show, this is a precious trace that the show was recorded by the band, probably the other six nights at Palais Omnisports de Bercy, Paris France as well. With this material in hand, they created the OTN, adding the shows in Nimes and Rotterdam and that CE has something from those nights in Paris, such as the greeting. However, I found that most of the audio is from Nimes FRA 21.05.92 and other small parts from Rotterdam 31.05.92. The parts that don't fit are either from shows that we don't have access to like the first and last night in Rotterdam, or they were prepared in some way in the studio.
https://youtu.be/dMu4xu1zu0U?si=yxsorbQwoWeaxcRD (https://youtu.be/dMu4xu1zu0U?si=yxsorbQwoWeaxcRD)
We don't have audience recordings of all the nights in Nimes and Rotterdam, so that greeting could comes from any of those missing concerts.
I usually analyze patterns in everything I research, it's something fundamental and makes a total difference in the result, I noticed that Mark always did that type of greeting at the beginning of CE, like we heard on OTN, only at shows in closed places, in places Open stadiums like Nimes, Rotterdam, and other stadiums, he didn't greet the audience like that, he usually greeted them by raising his arm high and with a closed fist.
I noticed that in all the shows in Paris in April 92 he greeted the audience in CE in the same way as in the OTN version, I noticed that he did the same in the shows I heard on the USA tour, closed places. In none of the shows we have in Nimes and Rotterdam there is this type of greeting, it is clear to me that that greeting was removed in one of the shows in Paris. At the shows in Earls Court I noticed that he does the kind of greeting he did in Paris and in concert halls across the USA, closed places, that's the standard.
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Oh man, at the beginning of the Basel show he shouts 'ayaaah' a sort of weird "are you alright" at the beginning of Elvis.
He clearly shouts "are you alright" at the beginning of the final Zaragoza show. My recollection is he shouted something most nights on the entire tour.
I could go through more bootlegs and live videos but I can't be bothered. The first two I just checked both featured the almost identical vocal greeting.
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closed places, that's the standard.
Nooooo.
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Oh man, at the beginning of the Basel show he shouts 'ayaaah' a sort of weird "are you alright" at the beginning of Elvis.
He clearly shouts "are you alright" at the beginning of the final Zaragoza show. My recollection is he shouted something most nights on the entire tour.
I could go through more bootlegs and live videos but I can't be bothered. The first two I just checked both featured the almost identical vocal greeting.
Chris, I don't want to say that he didn't salute with his voice during stadium shows, I noticed that the common pattern of that type of greeting that we heard on OTN was that he did at shows before starting the stage in stadiums, in closed spaces. When I heard CE at the shows in Paris, April 92 he does exactly as he appears on OTN, I heard some of the American leg of the tour, the same thing happens, it's exactly when the introduction of the song is in progress that he salutes, this doesn't happen in the same way. form in the shows in Nimes and Rotterdam, also in none of the first shows in Spain in May 92. If you look closely, in Basel 92 and Nimes in September 92, Mark greets the audience before playing the first note on his guitar , so, there is this type of dynamic that differs, it is a subtlety, but it makes a difference. In the end, I'm just trying to show that that OTN CE greeting was probably taken from a show in Paris in April 92, to show that the track was actually the result of at least 3 shows in different locations and dates and that it can also studio overdubs were added to the guitar parts.
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Oh man, at the beginning of the Basel show he shouts 'ayaaah' a sort of weird "are you alright" at the beginning of Elvis.
He clearly shouts "are you alright" at the beginning of the final Zaragoza show. My recollection is he shouted something most nights on the entire tour.
I could go through more bootlegs and live videos but I can't be bothered. The first two I just checked both featured the almost identical vocal greeting.
Chris, I don't want to say that he didn't salute with his voice during stadium shows, I noticed that the common pattern of that type of greeting that we heard on OTN was that he did at shows before starting the stage in stadiums, in closed spaces. When I heard CE at the shows in Paris, April 92 he does exactly as he appears on OTN, I heard some of the American leg of the tour, the same thing happens, it's exactly when the introduction of the song is in progress that he salutes, this doesn't happen in the same way. form in the shows in Nimes and Rotterdam, also in none of the first shows in Spain in May 92. If you look closely, in Basel 92 and Nimes in September 92, Mark greets the audience before playing the first note on his guitar , so, there is this type of dynamic that differs, it is a subtlety, but it makes a difference. In the end, I'm just trying to show that that OTN CE greeting was probably taken from a show in Paris in April 92, to show that the track was actually the result of at least 3 shows in different locations and dates and that it can also studio overdubs were added to the guitar parts.
Even if it could pinpoint a recording from a Paris show then it wouldn't be anything worthwhile. It probably came from a night in Rotterdam we don't have anyway - we'd have no way of knowing. It was just a spontaneous remark and I'm sure Mark could have made it any night.
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There is a different work for CE on OTN, unlike songs like Heavy Fuel, R&J, The Bug, PI, OES, You and Your Friend, MFN, BIA, SR and Wild Theme, these are the same as they are on the bootlegs of shows that were used to create OTN, save for the cut of MFN's intro and the solo drum signal.
Walk of Live has a small edition and YLT maybe something was done in the studio, I'm not sure about that, for me it's the same as the version from 05/19/92, Nimes, it has the same percussion and drums part in the intro, the sung part is also the same as the OTN version, the interpretation is the same, but the guitar is a little different, which reinforces the thesis that the guitar for this song was re-recorded in the studio.
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Oh man, at the beginning of the Basel show he shouts 'ayaaah' a sort of weird "are you alright" at the beginning of Elvis.
He clearly shouts "are you alright" at the beginning of the final Zaragoza show. My recollection is he shouted something most nights on the entire tour.
I could go through more bootlegs and live videos but I can't be bothered. The first two I just checked both featured the almost identical vocal greeting.
Chris, I don't want to say that he didn't salute with his voice during stadium shows, I noticed that the common pattern of that type of greeting that we heard on OTN was that he did at shows before starting the stage in stadiums, in closed spaces. When I heard CE at the shows in Paris, April 92 he does exactly as he appears on OTN, I heard some of the American leg of the tour, the same thing happens, it's exactly when the introduction of the song is in progress that he salutes, this doesn't happen in the same way. form in the shows in Nimes and Rotterdam, also in none of the first shows in Spain in May 92. If you look closely, in Basel 92 and Nimes in September 92, Mark greets the audience before playing the first note on his guitar , so, there is this type of dynamic that differs, it is a subtlety, but it makes a difference. In the end, I'm just trying to show that that OTN CE greeting was probably taken from a show in Paris in April 92, to show that the track was actually the result of at least 3 shows in different locations and dates and that it can also studio overdubs were added to the guitar parts.
Even if it could pinpoint a recording from a Paris show then it wouldn't be anything worthwhile. It probably came from a night in Rotterdam we don't have anyway - we'd have no way of knowing. It was just a spontaneous remark and I'm sure Mark could have made it any night.
I don't want to harp on this detail, but think about it, he does this same kind of greeting to the audience every night in Paris in April 92, and in the shows that precede Paris 92, exactly when the music is in progress Mark does the greeting and not before starting the first note of his guitar, exactly the OPPOSITE occurs in the three recordings we have of Nimes, May 92 and none of the two we have of Rotterdam 92, when there is no greeting, Mark salutes before playing his guitar . Wouldn't it be more likely that this was removed at one of the shows in Paris than at the shows we don't have recorded in Rotterdam? It's so likely that it doesn't even show the scene in the video when Mark greets the audience on OTN and it doesn't film Mark doing it, it just shows the audience. Overdubs detected, audio probably Paris 92.
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Oh man, this is literally doing my head in....
Mark does the exact same vocal greeting before playing his guitar at Woburn (large open air), and in Copenhagen (open air), summer of 92.
I'm find no inconsistency at all.
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Oh man, this is literally doing my head in....
Mark does the exact same vocal greeting before playing his guitar at Woburn (large open air), and in Copenhagen (open air), summer of 92.
I'm find no inconsistency at all.
Alright, Chris. Changing the subject, which moment of the show was your favorite, in which song? Do you remember how the video clip for Heavy Fuel (featuring Randy Quaid) was filmed and was partly filmed at the Sheffield Arena. Following Rod Stewart, Dire Straits became the second act to perform at the newly opened Sheffield Arena. During the Saturday show (31st August), members of the audience were given tickets to attend the Arena the following Monday (2nd September) daytime for the filming of the video for the Heavy fuel single.
Could you share something about this? Thank you for your attention and availability.
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Ah come on. Let’s look at it from a distance: OTN is a great record of combined live recordings. The latest addition of new previously unreleased stuff is absolutely great. We’ve been listening to tons of audience recordings with crappy audio that made us smile. We now have proper mixed and mastered soundboard recordings (if you like Guys work or not, it’s always way better than any audience recording). In addition we get some great and unique insights in the tour and recording aspects by Chris (thanks so much for that Chris, much appreciated!!!).
Is it really that bad? No, we can be happy we have a chance to listen to a bunch of whole new live recordings. Sometimes I feel like listening to a Simfy live recording of an MK tour, sometimes OTN, Alchemy or whatever we have. Sit back, take a good glass of something and enjoy. 8)
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Ah come on. Let’s look at it from a distance: OTN is a great record of combined live recordings. The latest addition of new previously unreleased stuff is absolutely great. We’ve been listening to tons of audience recordings with crappy audio that made us smile. We now have proper mixed and mastered soundboard recordings (if you like Guys work or not, it’s always way better than any audience recording). In addition we get some great and unique insights in the tour and recording aspects by Chris (thanks so much for that Chris, much appreciated!!!).
Is it really that bad? No, we can be happy we have a chance to listen to a bunch of whole new live recordings. Sometimes I feel like listening to a Simfy live recording of an MK tour, sometimes OTN, Alchemy or whatever we have. Sit back, take a good glass of something and enjoy. 8)
In case you didn’t read my original post, it was focused chiefly on the video mixing of sources, and I stand by that.
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Furthermore, this topic developed at a time when no one dreamed that this box would be released, which has been available to all of us since the beginning of this month, which is wonderful, very welcome, I loved it, especially Rainbow Theater 79.
But one of the aspects discussed here is about the song Calling Elvis in On the Night, for me it is clear that it is the result of elements from three shows, Paris, Nimes and Rotterdam between April and May 92, and possibly guitar parts created in the studio and added upon release in 1993. I've been taking a while to research this track, just trying to decipher how it was put together for OTN. Either way, it's wonderful to have the most complete OTN and Alchemy, better late than never.
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Furthermore, this topic developed at a time when no one dreamed that this box would be released, which has been available to all of us since the beginning of this month, which is wonderful, very welcome, I loved it, especially Rainbow Theater 79.
But one of the aspects discussed here is about the song Calling Elvis in On the Night, for me it is clear that it is the result of elements from three shows, Paris, Nimes and Rotterdam between April and May 92, and possibly guitar parts created in the studio and added upon release in 1993. I've been taking a while to research this track, just trying to decipher how it was put together for OTN. Either way, it's wonderful to have the most complete OTN and Alchemy, better late than never.
It's true but I hoped that there would be detailed descriptions in the booklet of each album.
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I'm in the minority here it seems but one of the reasons why I loved Dire Straits was the drum sound and patterns.
Of course they are technically different from the start with Pick to let's say Chris (fantastic to hear from you on these forums, a massive fan of your work.)
First two albums are organic. No need to add anything else.
Third album really went up 3 gears. That drum sound on Making Movies is excellent, even Pick talks about it in interviews regarding how tough it was getting sounds for the producer... Skateaway was an example he mentioned. But those songs are bombastic sounding. Wouldn't work with the sound of Communique.
Love Over Gold i've had disagreements on this forum regarding the drums where Pick does say in interviews that a lot of it wasn't natural... whether he played to programme drums (which is what some posters have suggested) or the programmed drums are what we are hearing (industrial disease is an example) i'm not sure about. But the songs on Love Over Gold were phenomenal and for once I wasn't necessarily air-drumming to the songs, more listening to the lyrics and playing my tennis-guitar.
Alchemy - whilst a fair few of the songs are perhaps a bit too long, I do like the arrangements and here we find Terry Williams giving it a bit more of a rocky feel. I'd like to mention that had the drums at this point sounded like Knopfler and his solo career, so very softly played, in slower / different tempos I wouldn't be interested.
Let's face it even from a young age apart from the Money For Nothing intro I knew Terry WIlliams wasn't on drums for the rest of the song and album. I thought there was something not quite right and it made sense that a sessioned drum player had overseen most of the drumming on BIA. Even as a 7 year old kid I wasn't having any of it, like when Def Leppard fans were shocked to find out that Pyromania wasn't Rick Allen on drums, but merely a drum machine. It's obvious to the ear but hey fans can either be more into the song (lyrics/vocals) and dismissive of drums and their sound.
The On Every Street Album didn't particularly have any exciting drum licks or sounds, Calling Elvis aside, that was quality in terms of percussion, the end of Heavy Fuel obviously had a few fills.... that's not to say that drum fills are the key to an album but a bit like the previous album it was Knopfler's craft that stood out. Even if the likes of Jeff Porcaro and Manu Kache featured.
This brings me onto the live album On The Night. Listen, I love a big hitter. I thought Chris did an outstanding job bringing a lot of the songs on the last few albums alive, and even his skills on the earlier stuff. It's stadium rock and you just can't have a bad drummer at those kind of gigs. Big, Bombastic. I mean Chris played alongside a percussionist and as usual Clark and Fletcher were on keys/piano. This was a massive band. Some posters have bizarre beliefs in that songs need to be in the style of Pick on drums for example. Well if that's the case get rid of the slide guitarist, 1 of the keyboardist etc. Dire Straits had moved on from the raw sounding animal we heard in 1978 or 1979. Chris was a phenomenal player and he reminds me of the arguments of old on the Led Zep forums. So when Jimmy Page and Robert Plant connected back in the 90's and the late great Michael Lee was on drums. Absolutely extroadinary drummer. I followed him from his time with the unknown underrated band The Little Angels. Lee was phenomenal and had drummed with the Cult, Echo And The Bunnymen, Bryan Adams, to name a few. His drumming on No Quarter and when Page/Plant went on tour was pehonemenal. Check out Jools Holland and The Wanton Song. Sadly a few dumb people criticised his playing for not having the groove of Bonham, I mean it's not 1975 it's 1995! Things move on. So of course I (and Michael by the sounds of things) was surprised that the Led Zep O2 reunion ditched Michael Lee for Jason Bonham. Unfortunately for Lee his personal heath declined badly and he passed away just a few years later.
I think the point i'm getting at is we need to respect the times. Listen, personally I'm not much a fan of Knopfler's solo stuff and a lot of it is down to the shuffle/country/folk style drumming. Not my cup of tea but I respect it. If Expressso Love was played in such style i'd have thrown the vinyl away. However this is the style of music Knopfler is into now. Ironically he was the one that wanted a big-hitter apparently for those big On Every Street tours and look what happened to Chris and his hearing. I find the criticism bizarre. It's almost as though Knopfler literally pulled the plug on the Big rock sound after 1992. But there you go. I'm from a heavy rock background and I also love alternative/grunge/pop/rock/80's new wave/industrial rock etc. I'm not a huge fan of folk, and most folk on here are, so perhaps that's why I can't relate to much of what is said. But that's fine we all love different music. Point being, On The Night wasn't ridiculously bad. It was ridiculously professional. To everyone's liking? Maybe not. But considering the environment at the time and the difficulties band members would have with the leader (and I'm hugely influenced by the leader) i'm not brainwashed enough to know that it has a huge effect on morale and performances. BUT the performances from my ears were absolutely spot on!! From all players, especially Chris!
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No, the drum playing and sound of the OES tour had nothing in common with Pick.
I went into the rehearsals and was pretty much told what to play by a trio of Mark, Allan and Guy.
I knew Mark absolutely LOVED Jeff Porcaro, and as Jeff was an idol to me too I started from the viewpoint - what would Jeff have played.
If you look at the McCartney tour, I was never told what to play. I decided that I wanted to pay homage to Ringo on The Beatles songs we played, I even played like McCartney on the solo material he'd made on his own in the studio.
There was never any space to explore different ideas in the OES rehearsals. It was - this is the way we've done it the last five years (BIA tour and various charity gigs).
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Couple of things, I’m not sure what there is to disagree about LOG, Pick himself said that a drum machine was used for the industrial sounds on Industrial Disease, the link has been posted on here several times now.
And were the Little Angels unknown?! 30 years ago they had a UK number one album!
This was a favourite
https://youtu.be/JSgUti27vtw?si=PwtdSOVvWHUaWFAo
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I've never heard of them, but I don't like heavy/hard rock.
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The On Every Street Album didn't particularly have any exciting drum licks or sounds, Calling Elvis aside, that was quality in terms of percussion, the end of Heavy Fuel obviously had a few fills.... that's not to say that drum fills are the key to an album but a bit like the previous album it was Knopfler's craft that stood out. Even if the likes of Jeff Porcaro and Manu Kache featured.
Have to disagree here, OES still has the best drum sound on any DS/MK record to date. They are so well balanced, have a really big and punchy sound. And the playing of course, just sublime. They did use samples for some of the mix but that’s just one of the studio tricks you do. This is what Guy should have aimed for in the new mixes but we just got bland results. Oh well.
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On OES, the drum sound is very good on tracks like When it Comes. Sound and playing seem just right, very much "in the pocket".
But as for OTN, neither me nor my family ever noticed the editing. And I must have watched CE a hundred times as a young lad.
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Ah come on. Let’s look at it from a distance: OTN is a great record of combined live recordings. The latest addition of new previously unreleased stuff is absolutely great. We’ve been listening to tons of audience recordings with crappy audio that made us smile. We now have proper mixed and mastered soundboard recordings (if you like Guys work or not, it’s always way better than any audience recording). In addition we get some great and unique insights in the tour and recording aspects by Chris (thanks so much for that Chris, much appreciated!!!).
Is it really that bad? No, we can be happy we have a chance to listen to a bunch of whole new live recordings. Sometimes I feel like listening to a Simfy live recording of an MK tour, sometimes OTN, Alchemy or whatever we have. Sit back, take a good glass of something and enjoy. 8)
In case you didn’t read my original post, it was focused chiefly on the video mixing of sources, and I stand by that.
And? It’s a mix of several gigs. Nice recording, nice shots. I still prefer watching OTN compared to a not so steady shaking mono-cam recording right behind the only tall guy somewhere in the middle of the audiencd. They put quite some effort in making a nice compilation of the OES tour. Don’t get the comment really…?
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Ah come on. Let’s look at it from a distance: OTN is a great record of combined live recordings. The latest addition of new previously unreleased stuff is absolutely great. We’ve been listening to tons of audience recordings with crappy audio that made us smile. We now have proper mixed and mastered soundboard recordings (if you like Guys work or not, it’s always way better than any audience recording). In addition we get some great and unique insights in the tour and recording aspects by Chris (thanks so much for that Chris, much appreciated!!!).
Is it really that bad? No, we can be happy we have a chance to listen to a bunch of whole new live recordings. Sometimes I feel like listening to a Simfy live recording of an MK tour, sometimes OTN, Alchemy or whatever we have. Sit back, take a good glass of something and enjoy. 8)
In case you didn’t read my original post, it was focused chiefly on the video mixing of sources, and I stand by that.
And? It’s a mix of several gigs. Nice recording, nice shots. I still prefer watching OTN compared to a not so steady shaking mono-cam recording right behind the only tall guy somewhere in the middle of the audiencd. They put quite some effort in making a nice compilation of the OES tour. Don’t get the comment really…?
From my point of view, I had been watching a VHS recording of Basel for nearly a year by the time On The Night came out. It was, and is wonderful. Even as a child I could tell that OTN was phony.
(Basel was broadcast live throughout Europe. It was on Sky here in the UK. My family couldn’t afford Sky but my friend recorded it and I wore the tape out).
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Maybe it would be a good idea to direct the discussion about CE on OTN here, instead of developing a further topic about the box launching on 11/03/23.
The documentary 24 Heures portrays the show in 24.04.1992, Palais Omnisports de Bercy, Paris France, is the first of seven consecutive nights at Palais Omnisports de Bercy Paris, at 10:36 Mark uses the greeting present in the CE recordings on OTN, the same occurs in all 7 recordings at the Palais Omnisports de Bercy, Paris France, I was checking, but in none of the shows theoretically used for the OTN does Mark do the salute this way, (Nimes and Rotterdam). Note that at approximately 12:00 min of the video it shows a mobile studio, they are recording the show, this is a precious trace that the show was recorded by the band, probably the other six nights at Palais Omnisports de Bercy, Paris France as well. With this material in hand, they created the OTN, adding the shows in Nimes and Rotterdam and that CE has something from those nights in Paris, such as the greeting. However, I found that most of the audio is from Nimes FRA 21.05.92 and other small parts from Rotterdam 31.05.92. The parts that don't fit are either from shows that we don't have access to like the first and last night in Rotterdam, or they were prepared in some way in the studio.
https://youtu.be/dMu4xu1zu0U?si=yxsorbQwoWeaxcRD (https://youtu.be/dMu4xu1zu0U?si=yxsorbQwoWeaxcRD)
Great document.
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Maybe it would be a good idea to direct the discussion about CE on OTN here, instead of developing a further topic about the box launching on 11/03/23.
The documentary 24 Heures portrays the show in 24.04.1992, Palais Omnisports de Bercy, Paris France, is the first of seven consecutive nights at Palais Omnisports de Bercy Paris, at 10:36 Mark uses the greeting present in the CE recordings on OTN, the same occurs in all 7 recordings at the Palais Omnisports de Bercy, Paris France, I was checking, but in none of the shows theoretically used for the OTN does Mark do the salute this way, (Nimes and Rotterdam). Note that at approximately 12:00 min of the video it shows a mobile studio, they are recording the show, this is a precious trace that the show was recorded by the band, probably the other six nights at Palais Omnisports de Bercy, Paris France as well. With this material in hand, they created the OTN, adding the shows in Nimes and Rotterdam and that CE has something from those nights in Paris, such as the greeting. However, I found that most of the audio is from Nimes FRA 21.05.92 and other small parts from Rotterdam 31.05.92. The parts that don't fit are either from shows that we don't have access to like the first and last night in Rotterdam, or they were prepared in some way in the studio.
https://youtu.be/dMu4xu1zu0U?si=yxsorbQwoWeaxcRD (https://youtu.be/dMu4xu1zu0U?si=yxsorbQwoWeaxcRD)
Great document.
Thanks!!!!!
In an interview with MTV in 1991, when he was at the beginning of the OES tour 91/92, Mark mentioned his interest in visiting places he had not yet been to with Dire Straits, places like South America, Chile, Argentina and Brazil. I'm imagining what Dire Straits' time in South America would have been like, imagining that percussion solo by Dany and Chris' drums in Calling Elvis in the capital of Samba, Rio de Janeiro, the audience would go crazy!!!!
Not everything is perfect, just in our imagination!
https://youtu.be/zYNdVhTE6eo?si=5YsVImNLyLppWuV_ (https://youtu.be/zYNdVhTE6eo?si=5YsVImNLyLppWuV_)
He mentions this at 16:46 of this video. Anyway, it's really worth watching in full, great testimonials from Mark and Ed.
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Even as a child I could tell that OTN was phony.
It wasn't 'phony', again the comments are way too extreme. On The Night is a standard live album, like most other live albums.
I was part of the show (obviously). I have watched the Basel videos on Youtube many times, also watched the OTN DVD and listened to the OTN live album. None of it ever struck me as fake. I obviously understood, as a professional musician, that live albums and videos are edited, remixed, patched up to fix any obvious mistakes.
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Even as a child I could tell that OTN was phony.
It wasn't 'phony', again the comments are way too extreme. On The Night is a standard live album, like most other live albums.
I was part of the show (obviously). I have watched the Basel videos on Youtube many times, also watched the OTN DVD and listened to the OTN live album. None of it ever struck me as fake. I obviously understood, as a professional musician, that live albums and videos are edited, remixed, patched up to fix any obvious mistakes.
We totally understand that.
And they are too perfect, they are not a reflection of a live show because a live show is not perfect.
That's why many of us prefer the Basel or Nimes broadcasts as they are a live performance broadcasted live, and OTN an edited one looking for perfection, sacrificing the imperfections of a live show, that was what the people there lived during the show.
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Neil Dorfsman was heavily involved in the making of 'Flowers In The Dirt' the McCartney album I played on.
It also sounds too 'perfect'. Heavily manipulated/processed acoustic drums.
Mark obviously had a choice on OTN and agreed to go with that vision of perfection.
I like and am proud of Basel too.
I just think there is too much OTT language in these discussions - like a record being 'phoney', and artists being 'ashamed' of their live recordings etc..
I mean the title too - ridiculously bad?
No, it is not to your taste, as 'bad' is subjective and one person's ridiculously bad is another person's ridiculously great. Either way it's more of an opinion than a fact.
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To me, the great surprise was learning that CE is a composite of different nights. That is a different ballgame to simply polishing up a bad note here and there. If this is the case, then the OTN version only exists on that album and was never actually played live in one go.
I want my childhood back! 😅
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To me, the great surprise was learning that CE is a composite of different nights. That is a different ballgame to simply polishing up a bad note here and there. If this is the case, then the OTN version only exists on that album and was never actually played live in one go.
I want my childhood back! 😅
You'll always have any of the live broadcasts from that tour!
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then the OTN version only exists on that album and was never actually played live in one go.
We played it 300+ times in one go - and people loved it. As jbaent says above, it exists in the Basel video and in the bootlegs. I defy anyone to say they heard any edits before Guy mentioned relatively recently they'd edited some sections together.
I pretty much played the same every show - likewise Danny C. So if there was any editing it was to find whole verses or whole solos that were preferred to other ones.
It's creative and subjective, it's not that the sections were unusable, it's just that they found other verses or solos they preferred.
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Even as a child I could tell that OTN was phony.
It wasn't 'phony', again the comments are way too extreme. On The Night is a standard live album, like most other live albums.
I was part of the show (obviously). I have watched the Basel videos on Youtube many times, also watched the OTN DVD and listened to the OTN live album. None of it ever struck me as fake. I obviously understood, as a professional musician, that live albums and videos are edited, remixed, patched up to fix any obvious mistakes.
My definition of phony is “not real” - and we’ve established that it wasn’t a real live recording, so child me was correct. The revelation that nearly every other “live” album is also phony doesn’t change that.
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Neil Dorfsman was heavily involved in the making of 'Flowers In The Dirt' the McCartney album I played on.
It also sounds too 'perfect'. Heavily manipulated/processed acoustic drums.
Mark obviously had a choice on OTN and agreed to go with that vision of perfection.
I like and am proud of Basel too.
I just think there is too much OTT language in these discussions - like a record being 'phoney', and artists being 'ashamed' of their live recordings etc..
I mean the title too - ridiculously bad?
No, it is not to your taste, as 'bad' is subjective and one person's ridiculously bad is another person's ridiculously great. Either way it's more of an opinion than a fact.
It’s a discussion forum. People post their opinions. Of course they are subjective. In the opening post I posted my opinion and asked others for theirs. It’s not like I insulted someone’s mother or something ;D
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then the OTN version only exists on that album and was never actually played live in one go.
We played it 300+ times in one go - and people loved it. As jbaent says above, it exists in the Basel video and in the bootlegs. I defy anyone to say they heard any edits before Guy mentioned relatively recently they'd edited some sections together.
I pretty much played the same every show - likewise Danny C. So if there was any editing it was to find whole verses or whole solos that were preferred to other ones.
It's creative and subjective, it's not that the sections were unusable, it's just that they found other verses or solos they preferred.
Indeed, I nearly said the same thing. As far as I can tell, it was not primarily a matter of getting rid of mistakes. Mark saw the opportunity to present a "perfect" version of CE as he defined it then, possibly using guitar licks from various performances. In my view, the question has never been about drums or any other instrument in particular. The editing certainly fooled me.
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To me, the great surprise was learning that CE is a composite of different nights. That is a different ballgame to simply polishing up a bad note here and there. If this is the case, then the OTN version only exists on that album and was never actually played live in one go.
I want my childhood back! 😅
You'll always have any of the live broadcasts from that tour!
Yes. Of course all of the other performances exist. But this thread is about OTN. 🙂
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then the OTN version only exists on that album and was never actually played live in one go.
We played it 300+ times in one go - and people loved it. As jbaent says above, it exists in the Basel video and in the bootlegs. I defy anyone to say they heard any edits before Guy mentioned relatively recently they'd edited some sections together.
I pretty much played the same every show - likewise Danny C. So if there was any editing it was to find whole verses or whole solos that were preferred to other ones.
It's creative and subjective, it's not that the sections were unusable, it's just that they found other verses or solos they preferred.
Indeed, I nearly said the same thing. As far as I can tell, it was not primarily a matter of getting rid of mistakes. Mark saw the opportunity to present a "perfect" version of CE as he defined it then, possibly using guitar licks from various performances. In my view, the question has never been about drums or any other instrument in particular. The editing certainly fooled me.
Exactly, as for CE on OTN, it's clear to me that Mark wanted the perfect version of this song, which is why it's the song that had the most editing for this release, and it's all focused on his guitar licks that were the result of some clippings from different shows between Nimes and Rotterdam, it has nothing to do with the drums, percussion, keyboard, bass...
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I've never been a fan of the BIA-OES era, hence not a big fan of OTN either. Over-produced, too perfect music, too much keyboards, not enough energy, etc etc.
That said, OTN being edited doesn't really shock me.
I mean, it has been rehearsed, written, scripted... that MK wanted it to be perfect for the live recording, I can understand, it makes sense.
It's not a jazz concert, it's not Black flag or fugazi either, or mars volta or whatever.
OTN being heavily edited and over-produced makes sense.
As an occasionnal listener I never heard much différence between différent versions of Calling Elvis. Licks are pretty much always the same. It's not like if MK was ever trying to take great risks or take the band to unknown régions of creativity.
Just my opinion.
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t has nothing to do with the drums, percussion, keyboard, bass...
So none of those instruments are 'phony'?
It IS in fact all played live not reconstructed. I have no idea what was edited or how much was edited. We have your word for it, but I have serious concerns over your comments about Marks' "you alright" greeting.....so I'm just not sure.
I also wonder why CE would be so heavily altered as you claim, seeing as it is one of the easiest songs to play in the entire show (arguably the easiest), while much of the other material in the show was far more complex to pull off.
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As an occasionnal listener I never heard much différence between différent versions of Calling Elvis. Licks are pretty much always the same.
Right, so why the need to heavily edit and remake it with a lot of overdubs?
We have one person's claim that is is so heavily edited, and everyone has just accepted it as fact.
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As an occasionnal listener I never heard much différence between différent versions of Calling Elvis. Licks are pretty much always the same.
Right, so why the need to heavily edit and remake it with a lot of overdubs?
We have one person's claim that is is so heavily edited, and everyone has just accepted it as fact.
That comment is quite unfair Chris. We have several audience recordings of Nimes and Rotterdam concerts that were used for OTN and this person has checked them. He's not claimed anything, he checked the audience recordings and compared it with the OTN version, some parts fits perfectly with one recording, some fits with others, and some parts are not in any of the recrodings we have so, it's a fact.
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That comment is quite unfair Chris. We have several audience recordings of Nimes and Rotterdam concerts that were used for OTN and this person has checked them. He's not claimed anything,
He's claimed two things (at least)...
1) That CE was heavily edited and overdubbed on, but mostly heavily edited.
2) That Mark rarely shouted "you alright" in the open air shows.
In my distant memory I remember Mark shouting "you alright" at most shows. I went to the (tedious) trouble of checking a couple of live bootlegs from open air shows and found Mark shouted "you alright" at both.
Which calls into question the claim he didn't shout it at mist open air shows, which then calls into question the claim that CE is heavily edited.
If the drums, bass, percussion and keyboards were the same over many shows, how do you hear the edits. It could be that elements of the guitars were overdubbed in the mix studio, which is 1) much more common and 2) much more likely.
I suspect they edited longer sections from a few shows that were recorded - like for example taking the whole percussion solo and cutting it into a previous show. But that doesn't make the live album version phony.
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As an occasionnal listener I never heard much différence between différent versions of Calling Elvis. Licks are pretty much always the same.
Right, so why the need to heavily edit and remake it with a lot of overdubs?
We have one person's claim that is is so heavily edited, and everyone has just accepted it as fact.
Good question ;D .
For no reason that I can understand. The final result is a performance like any, or at least most other ones (I guess, if I read you well) on that tour.
It might as well have been non-edited, or lightly.
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t has nothing to do with the drums, percussion, keyboard, bass...
So none of those instruments are 'phony'?
This seems to have hit a nerve and seeing as it was me that said it, I will clarify my comment.
I did not say that any of the playing was phony, or in fact criticise any of the playing. I said that the way that OTN was put together meant it was phony, based on having listened incessantly to the CD bootleg of Basel that I had before OTN was released.
For what it's worth, I was 14 in 1992. I'm now 45. The On Every Street album and subsequent tour fired up a love of music inside me that still exists to this day. I'm sitting here in my home office, surrounded by thousands of CDs and records, and quite a few guitars, and this obsession all fell out of that album and that tour, so I thank you for your part in it. Towering over everything in the room is this framed poster.
(https://i.imgur.com/LXSgGYU.jpg)
So this all means a lot to me, but it doesn't get away from the fact that I was disappointed by On The Night when it was released. I haven't got the box set yet (my birthday is in a couple of weeks) but when I listen again maybe I will feel differently these days.
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Sure.
It has not 'hit a nerve'.
My overall point is that some fan comments are over the top and not grounded in reality. They are purist.
People can make those comments, sure.... and I am equally able to push back on them.
I don't see why CE was heavily edited, while other much more complex songs apparently weren't.
The only things that would need attention were all the complex guitar runs - half way through the live arrangement and at the end. Mark, Phil and Paul traded solos towards the end, I can see them finding the best version of that (from several shows) and also maybe fixing anything that was fluffed.
I can see them finding what they thought was the best percussion solo from any recorded show, and editing that in.
For the intro, main verses and chorusses I can't see why there was a need to heavily edit.
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As an aside I always loved Danny's little duck quack :)
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Oh yes....
Danny is combination of amazing percussionist and quite the comedian.
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Sure.
It has not 'hit a nerve'.
My overall point is that some fan comments are over the top and not grounded in reality. They are purist.
People can make those comments, sure.... and I am equally able to push back on them.
I don't see why CE was heavily edited, while other much more complex songs apparently weren't.
The only things that would need attention were all the complex guitar runs - half way through the live arrangement and at the end. Mark, Phil and Paul traded solos towards the end, I can see them finding the best version of that (from several shows) and also maybe fixing anything that was fluffed.
I can see them finding what they thought was the best percussion solo from any recorded show, and editing that in.
For the intro, main verses and chorusses I can't see why there was a need to heavily edit.
IT's not that CE was heavily edited and the rest apparently weren't, it's just that the comparation was made only with CE as far as I know. I seems to recall that another songs had been checked too but I'm only sure about CE.
I'm sure all the rest were edited more or less than CE, but I'm not sure in which extend.
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But it was claimed CE was more heavily edited than anything else:
There is a different work for CE on OTN, unlike songs like Heavy Fuel, R&J, The Bug, PI, OES, You and Your Friend, MFN, BIA, SR and Wild Theme, these are the same as they are on the bootlegs of shows that were used to create OTN,
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But it was claimed CE was more heavily edited than anything else:
There is a different work for CE on OTN, unlike songs like Heavy Fuel, R&J, The Bug, PI, OES, You and Your Friend, MFN, BIA, SR and Wild Theme, these are the same as they are on the bootlegs of shows that were used to create OTN,
If Bruno says that, I believe him. He's very good cheking the recordings.
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But I'm not sure he's right about the "you alright" shout at the beginning of the open air shows.
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But I'm not sure he's right about the "you alright" shout at the beginning of the open air shows.
LOL
Well, he checked it with the audience recordings we have, and that shout it is not in none of them, but it's true we don't have all the Nimes and Rotterdam shows, we have many, but not all.
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Maybe you're not following the debate?
I went to YouTube and the first two or three open air shows I found DID have the "you alright" shout (Copenhagen, Barcelona, Woburn and Zaragoza, bootleg recordings). I didn't look any further as a result.
Many other live recordings that are uploaded to Youtube don't start at the beginning of CE.
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Maybe you're not following the debate?
I went to YouTube and the first two or three open air shows I found DID have the "you alright" shout (Copenhagen, Barcelona, Woburn and Zaragoza, bootleg recordings). I didn't look any further as a result.
Many other live recordings that are uploaded to Youtube don't start at the beginning of CE.
English is not my mother tongue so maybe I'm missing something but, I'd say that the Bruno's mention to the Ye Alright shout is not that it didn't happened in any live concert but that it didn't happened in any of the Nimes and Rotterdam concerts we have in audience recordings and that can be compared with the CE in OTN.
Of course MK shout that in many bootlegs we have and listened to death since 1992...
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But it was claimed CE was more heavily edited than anything else:
There is a different work for CE on OTN, unlike songs like Heavy Fuel, R&J, The Bug, PI, OES, You and Your Friend, MFN, BIA, SR and Wild Theme, these are the same as they are on the bootlegs of shows that were used to create OTN,
If Bruno says that, I believe him. He's very good cheking the recordings.
I must mention that English is not my mother tongue, I will try to be as clear as possible, going straight to the point.
1- In my opinion, CE is the song that has undergone the most edits, precisely because it is one of the songs that contains a long open space for improvisations on Mark Knopfler's guitar and it was precisely for this reason that most of the edits were made. During the moment when Mark is creating a variation of guitar licks, the rest of the band basically leads the song in the same way in any show, the one who varies something on his instrument is Mark, he creates different paths in some shows, so, I understand that he sought to adjust things this way for CE in the release of Dire Straits' second live album, he created a perfect version based on at least two different shows (this is clear both in the video and if you listen to the shows Nimes and Rotterdam)
2- Songs like Heavy Fuel, R&J, The Bug, PI, OES on OTN are exactly as on Bootleg Nimes FRA 20.05.92, the same thing with You and Your Friend MFN, Brothers In Arms, Solid Rock
present in On The Night were always from 05/31/92 Rotterdam, Wild Theme, 05/30/92 Rotterdam, in none of these songs is there a mix of dates like in CE.
Walk of Live has a small edition and Your Latest Trick maybe did something in the studio, I'm not sure about that, for me it's the same as the version from 05/19/92, Nimes, it has the same percussion and drums part in the intro, the sung part is also the same as the OTN version, but the guitar is a little different, which reinforces the thesis that the guitar in this song was re-recorded in the studio.
3- So this was On The Night for 30 years, none of the songs had the audio or video editing treatment like CE. I point out that the greeting that Mark makes at the beginning of the show is something taken from some other show, just listen to any Bootleg in Nimes and Rotterdam in May 92, it simply doesn't happen at the same point as it does on OTN, on the other hand, it happens exactly the same At the shows in Paris in April 92, the salute is given at the same time as at OTN, the music is in progress...
I thank jbaent for recognizing my long-term research and analysis, I am so familiar with these recordings that I can identify which stage of the tour a recording is from based solely on the setlist or song arrangement, simply by listening to the recording.
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Yes, I agree with you, dusty, about On The Night video. I always found it over-produced/over-processed and much preferred the version I recorded from Channel 4 on Christmas Eve 1992. I almost wore out that recording, but when I bought OTN I was really disappointed and thought my original Basel recording was much more honest. Since then I found the more complete version from Basel.
Oh yes thats it, I remember being glued to the box on Christmas Eve 1992 watching that! Remember that well! The On the night film in comparison to that is very lame! Like you I have the complete Basel DVD now which is played and played time and again!
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At the time of release I was happy to get this top mixed live recording, only being disappointed by the fact that it was not the full show.
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Neil Dorfsman was heavily involved in the making of 'Flowers In The Dirt' the McCartney album I played on.
It also sounds too 'perfect'. Heavily manipulated/processed acoustic drums.
Mark obviously had a choice on OTN and agreed to go with that vision of perfection.
I like and am proud of Basel too.
I just think there is too much OTT language in these discussions - like a record being 'phoney', and artists being 'ashamed' of their live recordings etc..
I mean the title too - ridiculously bad?
No, it is not to your taste, as 'bad' is subjective and one person's ridiculously bad is another person's ridiculously great. Either way it's more of an opinion than a fact.
I 100% agree and it was kind of the point I was making in my original way too long post. The title is OTT to say the least. I thought your drumming was fitting and extremely exhilarating on those songs (ironic that perhaps you aren't a fan of that hard-hitting heavy rock and the sound in general and Knopfler never revisited it after 92/93, which makes it even more impressive on both accounts.) The recordings I think are a testament to the time. Very fitting, very stadium rock, but still technically brilliant. Look many of you on this forum may not like bands like Foo Fighters, RHCP and then poppier artists like Coldplay (I mean I certainly don't like Coldplay, too bland) but musically OTN was as hard hitting as some of those stadium rock bands i've mentioned and certainly more complex than all of them in terms of arrangements.
Interesting about the Flowers In The Dirt Album....
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The On Every Street Album didn't particularly have any exciting drum licks or sounds, Calling Elvis aside, that was quality in terms of percussion, the end of Heavy Fuel obviously had a few fills.... that's not to say that drum fills are the key to an album but a bit like the previous album it was Knopfler's craft that stood out. Even if the likes of Jeff Porcaro and Manu Kache featured.
Have to disagree here, OES still has the best drum sound on any DS/MK record to date. They are so well balanced, have a really big and punchy sound. And the playing of course, just sublime. They did use samples for some of the mix but that’s just one of the studio tricks you do. This is what Guy should have aimed for in the new mixes but we just got bland results. Oh well.
Actually I think you are spot on and I think my wording was poor. I wasn't overly keen on a fair few of the songs, playing it safe and of course accomodating the songs, but perhaps my thinking is they were weaker than previous DS songs. However you are right the drum sound was exceptional. Porcaro and Kache did extremely well especially on songs like Heavy Fuel, Calling Elvis, the fill towards the end of On Every Street when the drums come in, Planet of New Orleans....
I totally agree with your last sentence regarding bland results... i'm not really a fan of most of the drumming on MK's solo stuff, not to say it isn't good, i'm sure it's outstanding but I prefer hard hitters.
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Couple of things, I’m not sure what there is to disagree about LOG, Pick himself said that a drum machine was used for the industrial sounds on Industrial Disease, the link has been posted on here several times now.
And were the Little Angels unknown?! 30 years ago they had a UK number one album!
This was a favourite
https://youtu.be/JSgUti27vtw?si=PwtdSOVvWHUaWFAo
I'm not sure who it was I had the disagreement with but my original point a few months back was that Pick used a drum machine on Industrial Disease but someone disagreed with me.I got the info from a Pick interview.
Regarding Little Angels wow can't believe you've heard of them! One thing that may pass by Chris as it seems i'm digressing BUT I'm sure he can relate to this story is the Little Angels had 2 excellent drummers in their ranks. Michael Lee i've mentioned but his replacement was Mark Richardson who went onto play with Skunk Anansie and Feeder. Funny thing is for the Jam album back in 1993, Richardson was considered too green to play on the whole album, so instead non other than Pete Thomas of Elvis Costello and The Attractions fame came in as a session musician to perform on the album. Mark Richardson however didn't throw his toys of the pram and he took the decision extremely well and spent the time learning from Pete... Chris I know has replaced numerous drummers on sessions... and quite often not credited. But I thought it was fascinating to hear. Not sure if you've had that same sort of respect back? I suppose it depends on the band dynamics. Mark Richardson was young and like i've said green at the time. We also know that Terry Williams was replaced for most of BIA and he took it extremely well too...
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Respectfully disagree about it being a great album cover. It's just a random picture of satellite dishes, doesn't really mean anything to me.
always loved it, just a nice picture. and it is on the night as well :-)
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sure as hell hope Chris will keep posting his pov on his time with MK and band (as well as with Macca pls)
i find it amazing that we can do this with a guy that was actually there on stage, with an interesting point of view at that...
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It's not a great feeling to be replaced on a recording session.
Back in the day it caused a lot of ill feeling between the band's drummer and the other members.
Once computer recording came in (90's) very few band drummers had to be replaced because you could edit their playing to be more in time and you could add drum samples to improve the drum sound.
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I have yet to find an open air recording from 1992 where Mark does not shout "yeah" or "alright" or "you alright".
I don't know where this idea comes from that he really only shouted a greeting at the indoor shows. In my 40 years experience of lead singers, often when they do something and it garners a great reaction, they do it again the next show, then the next, etc....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkV9hPMCAjM&t=1s
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I have yet to find an open air recording from 1992 where Mark does not shout "yeah" or "alright" or "you alright".
I don't know where this idea comes from that he really only shouted a greeting at the indoor shows. In my 40 years experience of lead singers, often when they do something and it garners a great reaction, they do it again the next show, then the next, etc....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkV9hPMCAjM&t=1s
With all due respect, Chris, but, I notice that you are very resistant to understanding what I have been showing you all this time
In CE on OTN, right after the first lick that Mark makes on the guitar, at 00:24 seconds, notice that Mark makes a salute, the song is in progress.
https://youtu.be/BJii3ACoqDc?si=VYVYepgjZ49UDhn8 (https://youtu.be/BJii3ACoqDc?si=VYVYepgjZ49UDhn8)
I defy you or anyone to find it happening this way, at this point in the song in one of the recordings available on Bootleg that were used for OTN, Nimes or Rotterdam.
In fact, this only happens as it is on OTN in shows like the ones in Paris in April 1992, as you can see here at 00:52 seconds
https://youtu.be/TJ3BQuxj2KQ?si=47ejjvhbH8Vnepnn (https://youtu.be/TJ3BQuxj2KQ?si=47ejjvhbH8Vnepnn)
Or here, at 01:49 min.
https://youtu.be/G9K2Y7fW2Os?si=neTVgCjTsZu_3acO (https://youtu.be/G9K2Y7fW2Os?si=neTVgCjTsZu_3acO)
This was the pattern I had noticed, the greeting done in the current song, right after the first lick, does not occur in the shows they filmed for OTN
I never said that Mark doesn't shout a greeting at outdoor shows, I mentioned that as it is on OTN it's a montage, that's all and I showed where they possibly got the greeting from and put it in OTN's CE when they produced this track.
I respect you a lot for being an integral member of the band on this tour, but, look, I'm showing the facts that I came across, if you look, follow this itinerary that I'm leaving here for everyone, I'm sure you'll understand better.
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I’m afraid I’m still struggling to understand what you mean, Brunno.
So what you are saying is that he shouted «yeah, are you all right?» (or something) on outdoor shows before the band started playing and on indoor shows after the band started playing? (Could that be due to the curtains beeing used on indoor shows?) So the greeting on On The Night must either be a cut from some indoor show or a cut from before they started playing and then put in again «indoor style»? Or do you know that he did shout in a different way on the night(s) of recording CE?
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But we don't have all the Nîmes and Rotterdam bootlegs, right? So this could come from one of the missing nights?
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At the open air shows there was no curtain drop. So the song started with Danny on snare and Guy playing the echo synth note. Mark and John walked out from the centre rear of the stage and as the crowd saw them there was a loud roar and standing ovation. At that point, Mark pumped his fist in the air and shouted something, usually along the lines of "you alright".
It was claimed he didn't do this at the open air shows. Then it was claimed he didn't do it before playing his guitar at the indoor shows?
Either way, there is a 'you alright' shouted on the official live albums like OTN, and it was claimed because he didn't shout 'you alright' at the open air shows it must have been edited.
All of which I find sketchy at best.
From my memory, after the USA section and into the open air shows, mark shouted something at the beginning of CE most nights, maybe all nights.
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At the open air shows there was no curtain drop. So the song started with Danny on snare and Guy playing the echo synth note. Mark and John walked out from the centre rear of the stage and as the crowd saw them there was a loud roar and standing ovation. At that point, Mark pumped his fist in the air and shouted something, usually along the lines of "you alright".
It was claimed he didn't do this at the open air shows. Then it was claimed he didn't do it before playing his guitar at the indoor shows?
Either way, there is a 'you alright' shouted on the official live albums like OTN, and it was claimed because he didn't shout 'you alright' at the open air shows it must have been edited.
All of which I find sketchy at best.
From my memory, after the USA section and into the open air shows, mark shouted something at the beginning of CE most nights, maybe all nights.
And again, this is NOT what Brunno has been sayingm or the meaning of he has been saying.
Nevermind :smack
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At the open air shows there was no curtain drop. So the song started with Danny on snare and Guy playing the echo synth note. Mark and John walked out from the centre rear of the stage and as the crowd saw them there was a loud roar and standing ovation. At that point, Mark pumped his fist in the air and shouted something, usually along the lines of "you alright".
It was claimed he didn't do this at the open air shows. Then it was claimed he didn't do it before playing his guitar at the indoor shows?
Either way, there is a 'you alright' shouted on the official live albums like OTN, and it was claimed because he didn't shout 'you alright' at the open air shows it must have been edited.
All of which I find sketchy at best.
From my memory, after the USA section and into the open air shows, mark shouted something at the beginning of CE most nights, maybe all nights.
Chris, I am very curious. What made the US leg that unprofitable? Were you playing at half-full venues? There're almost no pics from any of these shows on the internet.
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And I quote:
I usually analyze patterns in everything I research, it's something fundamental and makes a total difference in the result, I noticed that Mark always did that type of greeting at the beginning of CE, like we heard on OTN, only at shows in closed places, in places Open stadiums like Nimes, Rotterdam, and other stadiums, he didn't greet the audience like that, he usually greeted them by raising his arm high and with a closed fist.
In the OTN video they cut out all the roar from the crowd with Mark soaking it up, probably just because they thought it was better to get on with the song and not waste time. Again, I highly doubt they sampled in the "yeah alright" on it's own, it is fairly redundant in the bigger picture.
They may have chopped in the whole intro section from a Paris show because the band got on with the song more, and there was less hanging around soaking up the audience cheers like on the bigger open air shows.
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Chris, I am very curious. What made the US leg that unprofitable? Were you playing at half-full venues? There're almost no pics from any of these shows on the internet.
Yes, the tour was over scheduled. I think we were there nearly three months. In the bigger markets we played to sold out shows, but there were other shows with more vacant seats. We played places I'd never played before on a major tour, like Saskatchewan, a casino in Vegas for one night, a University sports arena. So it just seemed badly scheduled from my point of view, and the vibe had gone from the Money For Nothing era. Grunge was king.
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Edited or not, isn't this "yeah alright" thing and MK salute the smallest detail of all microscopic details ? That's how almost every show started, I really couldn't care less where it has been edited from.
Many OES tour shows being interchangeable, due to their srcipted and orchestrated nature
we may wonder to what extent it has been edited but the result sounds and looks exactly like 90% of the shows on that tour.
It's not like if you edited bits of other concerts into John Coltrane live at Newport 1965, since the spirit and narrative of the impros themselves varied from day to day. And the sound too.
I'd say that the track list on the original OTN/Encores/DVD release was much more of a problem and a questionnable strategy than any video or audio edit that may have been done.
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Chris, I am very curious. What made the US leg that unprofitable? Were you playing at half-full venues? There're almost no pics from any of these shows on the internet.
Yes, the tour was over scheduled. I think we were there nearly three months. In the bigger markets we played to sold out shows, but there were other shows with more vacant seats. We played places I'd never played before on a major tour, like Saskatchewan, a casino in Vegas for one night, a University sports arena. So it just seemed badly scheduled from my point of view, and the vibe had gone from the Money For Nothing era. Grunge was king.
Grunge was the ultimate anti-DireStraits thing. I must say that I turned away from dire straits in the mid-eighties, and got into the indie scene, hard core, or alt pop. Dire Straits became the epitome of commercial FM rock, if rock at all, and in the USA they never were as big as in Europe, or for a much shorter period.
When OES was released, I was waiting for it due to my past history with their music as a young teenager in the early 80s. But I just couldn't listen to it. I didn't see them live on that tour. When OES was announced the first thing I thought was "I'm gonna see them live ! Dream come true !".
In the end I saw many bands in arenas and small clubs but never even thought about buying a ticket for DS.
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Edited or not, isn't this "yeah alright" thing and MK salute the smallest detail of all microscopic details ? That's how almost every show started, I really couldn't care less where it has been edited from.
^^ I agree ^^
Once you know two venues were filmed and recorded, with a possible third venue recorded, you KNOW they are going to listen back at the end of the tour and choose a greatest hits of moments from the recordings. I think that's what most people do. As I said, every singe show and sound check was recorded on the McCartney tour.
You can edit bits in most of the DS songs as there were distinct sections in things like R&J, Telegraph, Tunnel, Sultans etc.., with different tempos built in.
So they are going to find the best intro, the best guitar solo etc then glue them together.
When people start insinuating 'cheating', artists being 'ashamed' etc I just point to Basel. How much worse was the performance of the musicians at Basel show?
That's why I get frustrated at these conversations. Creative people will be creative because they can. The technology allows you to edit performances together, redo guitar solos in the mix studio etc...so people will, even if it doesn't really need it.
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That said,
I would never say that OTN is "ridiculously bad". It is not the kind of music nor my dire straits (to each his own ;D ) but it's not bad and certainly not ridiculous.
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Edited or not, isn't this "yeah alright" thing and MK salute the smallest detail of all microscopic details ? That's how almost every show started, I really couldn't care less where it has been edited from.
^^ I agree ^^
Once you know two venues were filmed and recorded, with a possible third venue recorded, you KNOW they are going to listen back at the end of the tour and choose a greatest hits of moments from the recordings. I think that's what most people do. As I said, every singe show and sound check was recorded on the McCartney tour.
You can edit bits in most of the DS songs as there were distinct sections in things like R&J, Telegraph, Tunnel, Sultans etc.., with different tempos built in.
So they are going to find the best intro, the best guitar solo etc then glue them together.
When people start insinuating 'cheating', artists being 'ashamed' etc I just point to Basel. How much worse was the performance of the musicians at Basel show?
That's why I get frustrated at these conversations. Creative people will be creative because they can. The technology allows you to edit performances together, redo guitar solos in the mix studio etc...so people will, even if it doesn't really need it.
I totally agree. It's all artistic décisions. Even the decision not to release live albums, or raw live albums, or polished or edited, or whatever, are décisions which are créative choices.
Nothing can be like the real live expérience, even in a non edited small jazz club recording. So there are créative choices on how you want it to sound like. No matter how you make it.
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Chris, I am very curious. What made the US leg that unprofitable? Were you playing at half-full venues? There're almost no pics from any of these shows on the internet.
Yes, the tour was over scheduled. I think we were there nearly three months. In the bigger markets we played to sold out shows, but there were other shows with more vacant seats. We played places I'd never played before on a major tour, like Saskatchewan, a casino in Vegas for one night, a University sports arena. So it just seemed badly scheduled from my point of view, and the vibe had gone from the Money For Nothing era. Grunge was king.
Grunge was the ultimate anti-DireStraits thing. I must say that I turned away from dire straits in the mid-eighties, and got into the indie scene, hard core, or alt pop. Dire Straits became the epitome of commercial FM rock, if rock at all, and in the USA they never were as big as in Europe, or for a much shorter period.
When OES was released, I was waiting for it due to my past history with their music as a young teenager in the early 80s. But I just couldn't listen to it. I didn't see them live on that tour. When OES was announced the first thing I thought was "I'm gonna see them live ! Dream come true !".
In the end I saw many bands in arenas and small clubs but never even thought about buying a ticket for DS.
I agree. I never quite liked the turn to the "commercial" of BIA, and to a lesser extent the singles on OES - eg "Heavy Fuel" - btw why was HF played in all songs? such a boring tune IMO. - What really made me obsessed with this band are these long >7 8 minutes pieces full of dynamics and incredibly orchestrated sections with mesmerizing MK solos.
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Oh, my goodness! Why can't people just sit back and enjoy this box set without all of the nit-picking. I am loving listening to all of it from the rawness of Rainbow to the "perfection" of OTN. Yes, I wasn't too enamoured by TOL and TR when I first heard them, but now I am enjoying those too, even though they are arranged slightly differently to the Alchemy versions. Just sit back and wallow in great music. :)
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Oh, my goodness! Why can't people just sit back and enjoy this box set without all of the nit-picking. I am loving listening to all of it from the rawness of Rainbow to the "perfection" of OTN. Yes, I wasn't too enamoured by TOL and TR when I first heard them, but now I am enjoying those too, even though they are arranged slightly differently to the Alchemy versions. Just sit back and wallow in great music. :)
Discussion is good Val!
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Chris, I am very curious. What made the US leg that unprofitable? Were you playing at half-full venues? There're almost no pics from any of these shows on the internet.
Yes, the tour was over scheduled. I think we were there nearly three months. In the bigger markets we played to sold out shows, but there were other shows with more vacant seats. We played places I'd never played before on a major tour, like Saskatchewan, a casino in Vegas for one night, a University sports arena. So it just seemed badly scheduled from my point of view, and the vibe had gone from the Money For Nothing era. Grunge was king.
This sounds eerily reminiscent of Spinal Tap. Did you guys ever play an air force base? ;)
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Oh, my goodness! Why can't people just sit back and enjoy this box set without all of the nit-picking. I am loving listening to all of it from the rawness of Rainbow to the "perfection" of OTN. Yes, I wasn't too enamoured by TOL and TR when I first heard them, but now I am enjoying those too, even though they are arranged slightly differently to the Alchemy versions. Just sit back and wallow in great music. :)
Discussion is good Val!
Yes, I know! ;)
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Oh, my goodness! Why can't people just sit back and enjoy this box set without all of the nit-picking. I am loving listening to all of it from the rawness of Rainbow to the "perfection" of OTN. Yes, I wasn't too enamoured by TOL and TR when I first heard them, but now I am enjoying those too, even though they are arranged slightly differently to the Alchemy versions. Just sit back and wallow in great music. :)
This topic is full-on comedy. Dozens of posts discussing whether MK said "AYEAHRIGHT" at the beginning of a show. Got to love this forum ;D
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Oh, my goodness! Why can't people just sit back and enjoy this box set without all of the nit-picking. I am loving listening to all of it from the rawness of Rainbow to the "perfection" of OTN. Yes, I wasn't too enamoured by TOL and TR when I first heard them, but now I am enjoying those too, even though they are arranged slightly differently to the Alchemy versions. Just sit back and wallow in great music. :)
This topic is full-on comedy. Dozens of posts discussing whether MK said "AYEAHRIGHT" at the beginning of a show. Got to love this forum ;D
:lol
Got to agree with Val (and others) on this and I'm as much a DS nerd as the next guy! If it was about the music then maybe, but a call to the audience before the show even starts then I'm not interested.
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I don’t think Brunno ever intended this to be a big deal, it was simply one part of his extensive (private) investigations to demonstrate that CE was a composite of different nights.
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I didn't want to take this subject any further, the greeting present in CE on OTN is just another montage made for this song, just as Mark's guitar licks are a mix of different dates and places, anyway, just a detail that I had noticed when I was scrutinizing this song, if one day the recording of the two dates that we don't have in Rotterdam appears, it will be possible to understand more clearly where the greeting came from, so far it is clear to me that it didn't come from Nimes and Rotterdam, I they look like they were taken from one of the 6 or 7 nights in Paris 92, but what does that matter? For me, this version is analogous to a film production where the director chooses the scenes that he will use for a part of the film, in the end the creativity is there, it is art, I value that.
I definitively close this subject, the recordings are there for anyone who wants to check out what I mentioned and draw their own conclusions, I emphasize that I didn't mean to say that Mark didn't greet the audience at outdoor shows, I mentioned that not in the same way as at OTN , subtleties are things that can easily go unnoticed, I know what I noticed, I'm sure other people also noticed what I noticed.
So that's it, let's all be happy because we love Dire Straits' musical work and we are privileged to have Chris W participate in this forum, with precious anecdotes!
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I don’t think Brunno ever intended this to be a big deal, it was simply one part of his extensive (private) investigations to demonstrate that CE was a composite of different nights.
Perfectly, my dear!
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Chris, I am very curious. What made the US leg that unprofitable? Were you playing at half-full venues? There're almost no pics from any of these shows on the internet.
Yes, the tour was over scheduled. I think we were there nearly three months. In the bigger markets we played to sold out shows, but there were other shows with more vacant seats. We played places I'd never played before on a major tour, like Saskatchewan, a casino in Vegas for one night, a University sports arena. So it just seemed badly scheduled from my point of view, and the vibe had gone from the Money For Nothing era. Grunge was king.
Wow, a myth have fallen. I cannot imagine 92 DS playing in a half filled venue. We are accustomed to these super full stadiums images (eg Rotterdam, Basel) from the summer leg. I guess that impacted in the band's morale.
Thanks again for sharing your memories of these incredible years with us, Chris. It means a lot!
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Chris, I am very curious. What made the US leg that unprofitable? Were you playing at half-full venues? There're almost no pics from any of these shows on the internet.
Yes, the tour was over scheduled. I think we were there nearly three months. In the bigger markets we played to sold out shows, but there were other shows with more vacant seats. We played places I'd never played before on a major tour, like Saskatchewan, a casino in Vegas for one night, a University sports arena. So it just seemed badly scheduled from my point of view, and the vibe had gone from the Money For Nothing era. Grunge was king.
Wow, a myth have fallen. I cannot imagine 92 DS playing in a half filled venue. We are accustomed to these super full stadiums images (eg Rotterdam, Basel) from the summer leg. I guess that impacted in the band's morale.
Thanks again for sharing your memories of these incredible years with us, Chris. It means a lot!
Other than the first burst after Sultans and the freak event that was BiA, DS were never as big in the US as they were in Europe.
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In an interview I believe with MTV in 1991, when he was at the beginning of the OES 91/92 tour, Mark mentioned his interest in visiting places that had not previously been with Dire Straits, places like South America, Chile, Argentina and Brazil. I'm imagining how much time Dire Straits had spent in South America, imagining that percussion solo by Dany and Chris in Calling Elvis in the capital of Samba, Río de Janeiro, the audience would go crazy!!!!
https://youtu.be/zYNdVhTE6eo?si=5YsVImNLyLppWuV_ (https://youtu.be/zYNdVhTE6eo?si=5YsVImNLyLppWuV_)
Mention this at minute 16:46 of this video. In any case, it's really worth watching in full, excellent testimonials from Mark and Ed.
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I personally think that the Nimes concert from September 29th would have made a perfect official recording, with a proper mixing. All the songs are perfectly played, much better IMO than the famous Basel night. Sultans and Telegraph road are better than, I think, the official recording that we now have.
And MK says "all riiiight" TWICE at the beginning of the show ;D
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I personally think that the Nimes concert from September 29th would have made a perfect official recording, with a proper mixing. All the songs are perfectly played, much better IMO than the famous Basel night. Sultans and Telegraph road are better than, I think, the official recording that we now have.
And MK says "all riiiight" TWICE at the beginning of the show ;D
I too prefer Nimes. Look at Mark smiling to the audience and moving his head in circles while delivering those incredible scale runs in Calling Elvis 🙂
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I personally think that the Nimes concert from September 29th would have made a perfect official recording, with a proper mixing. All the songs are perfectly played, much better IMO than the famous Basel night. Sultans and Telegraph road are better than, I think, the official recording that we now have.
And MK says "all riiiight" TWICE at the beginning of the show ;D
I too prefer Nimes. Look at Mark smiling to the audience and moving his head in circles while delivering those incredible scale runs in Calling Elvis 🙂
I prefer Basel as Nimes for me is one show from the last part of the tour, when they were tired and looking forward to end the tour. Also they were playing probably more perfectly and kind of autopilot and Basel, they were more fresh in my opinion.
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It's funny how you guess how people were feeling.
The only show I detected any tiredness and looking forward to the end of the tour was Zaragoza.
That was certainly Not the case at Nimes. It's a wonderful venue and the crowd were amazing.
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From Easter 1992 (I think it was Metz etc) I think the band were just tanking along happily.
The 1991 sectors were a little tense as we had a long road ahead of us and Mark was still trying to decide how and what we were going to play in the show. As previously mentioned the USA was a little downer. Also a very long leg in bad weather, playing cold ice stadiums etc....
Easter to October '92 we were in great weather, closer to home (in Europe). the shows were sold out with absolutely incredible audiences. Mark had settled in to the routine and was less angst about the show.
Probably the last two or three shows of the tour I started to feel tired and was anxious for the end. But we are high paid professionals so you still want to give everything for the audience. they have travelled far and paid a lot of money for tickets.
The Zaragoza show was weird as we flew in from Barcelona late afternoon. There was no hang with the crew afterwards, no party, no thank you for a great job guys etc...
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OTN was never that bad. Not bad at all actually. Come on guys. Imagine you never had that live recording. YOU AND YOUR FRIEND was on there, which was enough for me. Love that track.
Since then we got among others WHEN IT COMES TO YOU, and I THINK I LOVE YOU TOO MUCH.
Thats just WOW factor right there.
We never got MILLIONAIRE BLUES from that period live, but we got so much more.
If you want full recording of a 1992 show, Copenhagen (soundboard recording) is a great pick.
I have been trying to chase down the recording of MK ´s solo entrance in the break, when he came out alone and played "Im Singing In The Rain" and Ole Ole Ole.
It was raining heavily that day so I guess he tried to be a little creative.
The Danish Cultural Heritage could not find that passage in the recording (it was broadcastet for danish radio), and even if they did, it would require MK management so says yes for its release.
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From Easter 1992 (I think it was Metz etc) I think the band were just tanking along happily.
The 1991 sectors were a little tense as we had a long road ahead of us and Mark was still trying to decide how and what we were going to play in the show. As previously mentioned the USA was a little downer. Also a very long leg in bad weather, playing cold ice stadiums etc....
Easter to October '92 we were in great weather, closer to home (in Europe). the shows were sold out with absolutely incredible audiences. Mark had settled in to the routine and was less angst about the show.
Probably the last two or three shows of the tour I started to feel tired and was anxious for the end. But we are high paid professionals so you still want to give everything for the audience. they have travelled far and paid a lot of money for tickets.
The Zaragoza show was weird as we flew in from Barcelona late afternoon. There was no hang with the crew afterwards, no party, no thank you for a great job guys etc...
Yeah, looks like indeed Mark was having fun in these shows. Look at his hilarious face on this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGwMECZNjJA at 2:34 - 2:36. We need a gif for that!
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OTN was never that bad. Not bad at all actually. Come on guys. Imagine you never had that live recording. YOU AND YOUR FRIEND was on there, which was enough for me. Love that track.
Me too! After all these years this song always gets me. I still get tears in my eyes when I listen to it. The stunning communication of his guitar and Paul Franklin's steel guitar, and Mark's end solo is out of this world. Takes you into another atmosphere. Nobody makes the guitar sing like Mark Knopfler! Nobody!
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Chris, on the BiA tour there were lots of special guest appearances, Pete Townshend, Billy Joel, Nils Lofgren etc
On the OES tour there was only one guest that we are aware of, John Anderson.
Can you remember there ever being any discussion of any other possible guest appearances that just didn't come off?
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Oh yes John Anderson!
For years I have been wondering whether there is any video recording of his appearance available except this one we all know about. https://youtu.be/tvxWlg3is2U?si=qaBtQShN_YLQ1COM
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yes John Anderson!
Was this a deliberate gag? :)
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From Easter 1992 (I think it was Metz etc) I think the band were just tanking along happily.
The 1991 sectors were a little tense as we had a long road ahead of us and Mark was still trying to decide how and what we were going to play in the show. As previously mentioned the USA was a little downer. Also a very long leg in bad weather, playing cold ice stadiums etc....
Easter to October '92 we were in great weather, closer to home (in Europe). the shows were sold out with absolutely incredible audiences. Mark had settled in to the routine and was less angst about the show.
Probably the last two or three shows of the tour I started to feel tired and was anxious for the end. But we are high paid professionals so you still want to give everything for the audience. they have travelled far and paid a lot of money for tickets.
The Zaragoza show was weird as we flew in from Barcelona late afternoon. There was no hang with the crew afterwards, no party, no thank you for a great job guys etc...
Yeah, looks like indeed Mark was having fun in these shows. Look at his hilarious face on this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGwMECZNjJA at 2:34 - 2:36. We need a gif for that!
Really? Everyone says Mark was in a bad mood the whole tour:) Not in Basel :)
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OTN was never that bad. Not bad at all actually. Come on guys. Imagine you never had that live recording. YOU AND YOUR FRIEND was on there, which was enough for me. Love that track.
Me too! After all these years this song always gets me. I still get tears in my eyes when I listen to it. The stunning communication of his guitar and Paul Franklin's steel guitar, and Mark's end solo is out of this world. Takes you into another atmosphere. Nobody makes the guitar sing like Mark Knopfler! Nobody!
Exactly!
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yes John Anderson!
Was this a deliberate gag? :)
ah ah good one :thumbsup :lol
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OTN was never that bad. Not bad at all actually. Come on guys. Imagine you never had that live recording. YOU AND YOUR FRIEND was on there, which was enough for me. Love that track.
Me too! After all these years this song always gets me. I still get tears in my eyes when I listen to it. The stunning communication of his guitar and Paul Franklin's steel guitar, and Mark's end solo is out of this world. Takes you into another atmosphere. Nobody makes the guitar sing like Mark Knopfler! Nobody!
I am also another huge YAYF fan - Are there ANY other soundboard or equivalent quality recordings with You and Your Friend apart from OTN? I have Munich...but the quality is nowhere near the same - so keen for any recommendations.
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OTN was never that bad. Not bad at all actually. Come on guys. Imagine you never had that live recording. YOU AND YOUR FRIEND was on there, which was enough for me. Love that track.
Me too! After all these years this song always gets me. I still get tears in my eyes when I listen to it. The stunning communication of his guitar and Paul Franklin's steel guitar, and Mark's end solo is out of this world. Takes you into another atmosphere. Nobody makes the guitar sing like Mark Knopfler! Nobody!
I am also another huge YAYF fan - Are there ANY other soundboard or equivalent quality recordings with You and Your Friend apart from OTN? I have Munich...but the quality is nowhere near the same - so keen for any recommendations.
I dont think so. The number of concerts that has SB recordings from the OES tour can be counted on one hand.
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OTN was never that bad. Not bad at all actually. Come on guys. Imagine you never had that live recording. YOU AND YOUR FRIEND was on there, which was enough for me. Love that track.
Me too! After all these years this song always gets me. I still get tears in my eyes when I listen to it. The stunning communication of his guitar and Paul Franklin's steel guitar, and Mark's end solo is out of this world. Takes you into another atmosphere. Nobody makes the guitar sing like Mark Knopfler! Nobody!
I am also another huge YAYF fan - Are there ANY other soundboard or equivalent quality recordings with You and Your Friend apart from OTN? I have Munich...but the quality is nowhere near the same - so keen for any recommendations.
Also I would say that we were lucky with that official YAYF recording, other renditions in the tour are not even close to it! He was really inspired that night.
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OTN was never that bad. Not bad at all actually. Come on guys. Imagine you never had that live recording. YOU AND YOUR FRIEND was on there, which was enough for me. Love that track.
Me too! After all these years this song always gets me. I still get tears in my eyes when I listen to it. The stunning communication of his guitar and Paul Franklin's steel guitar, and Mark's end solo is out of this world. Takes you into another atmosphere. Nobody makes the guitar sing like Mark Knopfler! Nobody!
I am also another huge YAYF fan - Are there ANY other soundboard or equivalent quality recordings with You and Your Friend apart from OTN? I have Munich...but the quality is nowhere near the same - so keen for any recommendations.
Milan 09.09.92 is quite a nice recording.
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OTN was never that bad. Not bad at all actually. Come on guys. Imagine you never had that live recording. YOU AND YOUR FRIEND was on there, which was enough for me. Love that track.
Me too! After all these years this song always gets me. I still get tears in my eyes when I listen to it. The stunning communication of his guitar and Paul Franklin's steel guitar, and Mark's end solo is out of this world. Takes you into another atmosphere. Nobody makes the guitar sing like Mark Knopfler! Nobody!
I am also another huge YAYF fan - Are there ANY other soundboard or equivalent quality recordings with You and Your Friend apart from OTN? I have Munich...but the quality is nowhere near the same - so keen for any recommendations.
Milan 09.09.92 is quite a nice recording.
Hello folks! A passionate and very interesting discussion about a much cherished live album of mine. It's funny how the live versions on OTN have become the reference for me and every time I listen to another OES show I'm expecting this exact same sax solo in R&J. That's not to say I don't enjoy the numerous subtle variations that happened along the tour, quite the contrary (for instance, one can lend an ear on the incredible 02/02/92 audience recording).
It's just that these OTN versions are engraved in my memory and I'm really grateful we got an official live release from that tour, and now just expanded thanks to Guy Fletcher 's hard work.
One thing I would have changed is the piano mix, which I think is better in Basel (more upfront).
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OTN was never that bad. Not bad at all actually. Come on guys. Imagine you never had that live recording. YOU AND YOUR FRIEND was on there, which was enough for me. Love that track.
Me too! After all these years this song always gets me. I still get tears in my eyes when I listen to it. The stunning communication of his guitar and Paul Franklin's steel guitar, and Mark's end solo is out of this world. Takes you into another atmosphere. Nobody makes the guitar sing like Mark Knopfler! Nobody!
I am also another huge YAYF fan - Are there ANY other soundboard or equivalent quality recordings with You and Your Friend apart from OTN? I have Munich...but the quality is nowhere near the same - so keen for any recommendations.
Milan 09.09.92 is quite a nice recording.
Hello folks! A passionate and very interesting discussion about a much cherished live album of mine. It's funny how the live versions on OTN have become the reference for me and every time I listen to another OES show I'm expecting this exact same sax solo in R&J. That's not to say I don't enjoy the numerous subtle variations that happened along the tour, quite the contrary (for instance, one can lend an ear on the incredible 02/02/92 audience recording).
It's just that these OTN versions are engraved in my memory and I'm really grateful we got an official live release from that tour, and now just expanded thanks to Guy Fletcher 's hard work.
One thing I would have changed is the piano mix, which I think is better in Basel (more upfront).
nice first post.
Welcome!
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OTN was never that bad. Not bad at all actually. Come on guys. Imagine you never had that live recording. YOU AND YOUR FRIEND was on there, which was enough for me. Love that track.
Me too! After all these years this song always gets me. I still get tears in my eyes when I listen to it. The stunning communication of his guitar and Paul Franklin's steel guitar, and Mark's end solo is out of this world. Takes you into another atmosphere. Nobody makes the guitar sing like Mark Knopfler! Nobody!
I am also another huge YAYF fan - Are there ANY other soundboard or equivalent quality recordings with You and Your Friend apart from OTN? I have Munich...but the quality is nowhere near the same - so keen for any recommendations.
Milan 09.09.92 is quite a nice recording.
Hello folks! A passionate and very interesting discussion about a much cherished live album of mine. It's funny how the live versions on OTN have become the reference for me and every time I listen to another OES show I'm expecting this exact same sax solo in R&J. That's not to say I don't enjoy the numerous subtle variations that happened along the tour, quite the contrary (for instance, one can lend an ear on the incredible 02/02/92 audience recording).
It's just that these OTN versions are engraved in my memory and I'm really grateful we got an official live release from that tour, and now just expanded thanks to Guy Fletcher 's hard work.
One thing I would have changed is the piano mix, which I think is better in Basel (more upfront).
in many cases, what become "reference versions" are the first one we hear.
For me, the Mandela version of Romeo & Juliet was the first one I heard with the sax solo. And it's my "reference version" of the song in that form
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Also what we had access to in the early days. It wasn't like now when you can easily access hundreds of bootlegs at the touch of a button. You had to work for them!
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OTN was never that bad. Not bad at all actually. Come on guys. Imagine you never had that live recording. YOU AND YOUR FRIEND was on there, which was enough for me. Love that track.
Me too! After all these years this song always gets me. I still get tears in my eyes when I listen to it. The stunning communication of his guitar and Paul Franklin's steel guitar, and Mark's end solo is out of this world. Takes you into another atmosphere. Nobody makes the guitar sing like Mark Knopfler! Nobody!
I am also another huge YAYF fan - Are there ANY other soundboard or equivalent quality recordings with You and Your Friend apart from OTN? I have Munich...but the quality is nowhere near the same - so keen for any recommendations.
Milan 09.09.92 is quite a nice recording.
Hello folks! A passionate and very interesting discussion about a much cherished live album of mine. It's funny how the live versions on OTN have become the reference for me and every time I listen to another OES show I'm expecting this exact same sax solo in R&J. That's not to say I don't enjoy the numerous subtle variations that happened along the tour, quite the contrary (for instance, one can lend an ear on the incredible 02/02/92 audience recording).
It's just that these OTN versions are engraved in my memory and I'm really grateful we got an official live release from that tour, and now just expanded thanks to Guy Fletcher 's hard work.
One thing I would have changed is the piano mix, which I think is better in Basel (more upfront).
in many cases, what become "reference versions" are the first one we hear.
For me, the Mandela version of Romeo & Juliet was the first one I heard with the sax solo. And it's my "reference version" of the song in that form
Very true indeed. To the point that I first listened dozens if not hundreds of times to my Alchemy audio tape before having the CD, in which I didn't quite found the same sound. Go figure!
Also, I even became used to some boots defaults (Texan Sunset anyone?) and when clean internet versions surfaced, it was better ... in a way.