Pick Withers Live - 78 and 81. A Musical Analysis.

[ds1984]

Natural talent really exist.

This is not only a question of work.

But if you want to be at the top of the game you can't avoid working hard for it.

Even talented, the lazy waste their talent and ends as loosers.

[Chris W]

Fact is, no one really knows, because infants are highly influenced by their environment from day one after birth.
It's a debate that's going to go on and on. The main reason I like to focus on work is that it doesn't assign some intangible 'gift' to people who have worked hard.
Genetics plays an important part in sport, especially endurance, but the jury is out on creativity - drumming, song writing, book writing etc.

[mariosboss]

The natural talent debate is a fascinating one.

Both Ronaldo and Messi are exceptional trainers btw. Ronaldo is the ultimate athlete... not only has that made him a better player but he is still making a living and competing on the international stage. Compare that to Wayne Rooney who was also a phenomenal talent and also trained fairly well, but not to the level of Ronaldo. Also he has a different build. Sometimes you have a physique that's easier to maintain. Everyone is different. Yet there are players out there who may have achieved more had they just had the Ronaldo focus. Player's with just as much natural talent.

In terms of musicians well my wife's ex boyfriend for example has 100 times more natural talent on the guitars than I have, in fact he virtually makes his living from playing the guitar, teaching and performing with bands on the stage. He has performed in front of a 50,000 audience. The joke was after a gig that I had played in Kingston, where I was happy with my performance and the solid 60 odd crowd that turned up, we went home, switched the tv on to find her ex boyfriend's band playing live in front of 20,000 people at a festival. haha. I was gutted.

However in terms of songwriting, my wife would point out that he never ever wrote songs, not really his thing, he struggled whereas I do. I'm rubbish at all other aspects but enjoy songwriting, So there's a wider picture to take into account. Mark Knopfler had a bit of everything. Some drummers are a perfect fit for their bands, they could be replaced by someone more talented but it may not work. On the flipside sometimes you need a big talent, a disciplined pro to perhaps replace parts of a track to make it stand out and sound in sync.
 

[Chris W]

You start by talking about the discipline and hard work Ronaldo and Messi have put in (I agree), then go on to describe everyone else who has achieved something as 'talented' or 'more talented'.

[koobaa]

Fact is, no one really knows, because infants are highly influenced by their environment from day one after birth.
It's a debate that's going to go on and on. The main reason I like to focus on work is that it doesn't assign some intangible 'gift' to people who have worked hard.
Genetics plays an important part in sport, especially endurance, but the jury is out on creativity - drumming, song writing, book writing etc.

You’re right that environment starts shaping us from the moment we’re born, but research does show genetics plays a role too — it sets up the basic wiring that experience then fine-tunes.
So, it’s not that we can’t know; it’s that both forces are always working together. The idea that creativity is completely independent of biology isn’t really supported by evidence. For instance, studies have linked musical improvisation, working memory, and divergent thinking to measurable differences in neural connectivity and dopamine systems.

I did a quick search and there is quite a few peer-reviewed studies that support this. Here are just a couple:
 - Gray Matter Correlates of Creativity in Musical Improvisation (Arkin et al., 2019) — shows that musical improvisation ability relates to differences in brain structure (gray matter) in regions tied to learning and creativity.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6538978/
- The changing impact of genes and environment on brain development during childhood and adolescence: Initial findings from a neuroimaging study of pediatric twins
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2892674/

[Chris W]

That's fine, but it's the over statement of biology that brings issues with it.
What started this? The idea that Vinnie Colaiuta is 'more talented' than most other drummers.
Or even that Mark is 'more talented' than most other guitarists. It completely discounts the thousands and thousands of hours of work that those people put in, the sheer dedication.
It maybe that Mark thoroughly enjoyed noodling on guitar while he watched tv as a teenager, but that's beside the point.

[koobaa]

There’s really no question that Vinnie or Mark got where they are because of thousands of hours of practice and relentless focus. No shortcut replaces that.
Recognizing that biology plays some part doesn’t take anything away from that, it just helps explain why people vary in what comes more naturally early on.

The science doesn’t say “talent replaces work” — it says that talent shapes how work pays off. A slightly different neural setup might make rhythm or pitch processing click a bit faster, but without thousands of hours of practice, it wouldn’t amount to anything. Every top-level performer still put in the grind, as you surely know from your own experience.

So, I completely agree that effort is what makes the music. Biology just decides "the tuning" if you know what I mean.

[Chris W]

I understand all that. But in my first post about 'talent' I listed all the negatives.
It pains me to see people struggle to keep playing their instrument, while saying they aren't 'talented'.
Also, to see jealous people dismiss incredible musicians (painters, actors) as just more talented.

I still think that weird moment when someone hands you a guitar or a tennis racket at age 4 and you become passionate about it - is more important than anything you were born with.
I got given a guitar at age 8 or 9 and only lasted a couple of weeks before I became discouraged. I was given a violin to learn at school, which I was required to persevere with for a year term but I hated it.

[koobaa]

I still think that weird moment when someone hands you a guitar or a tennis racket at age 4 and you become passionate about it - is more important than anything you were born with.

Amen to that.

I think we actually landed on a middle ground and can safely say that talent exists, but it's overrated and misunderstood.