Mark and Bob - Differences and similarities

[Fletch]

Couldn`t agree more about wishing Mark would bring back the sting, the slightly edgy danger of his early playing.

Funny you mention Industrial Disease, i was almost going to post yesterday that I can imagine Bobs nasally warble going ok in that song  -wouldnt that be something?

I hope you give L&T further listens Mr J, its good, believe me! haha! And... if you don`t have it, the Tell Tale Times bootleg album is brilliant - its a shame a lot of Bobs stuff gets pulled off youtube, but try a listen of the Mississippi outake (track 1 on the first CD). Bob & Lanois at their soulful best, very atmospheric.
Btw i`m not vouching for his voice right now, I think the last few years have hit him pretty hard.

[Jackal]

Most of it is on Grooveshark (similar to Spotify). Will listen to it there.

[Jackal]

As for dynamics, I think Blind Willie is probably the only BD song that has any (?) Nothing comes to mind.

Just listened to Love and Theft again; the song Cry A While has some interesting tempo shifts. So at least there is one But it's still rambling blues  

EDIT:

Also had a listen to Tell Tale Signs. Interesting stuff. Unmistakingly Dylan, but more variation. I've made a Grooveshark playlist of most of the songs from that CD: http://grooveshark.com/playlist/Bob+Dylan+Tell+Tale+Signs+Select+Songs/61058027

[Fletch]

On the original topic, differences between MK & Bob...

From Guitar Player Sept 84 (after Infidels & Twisting EP)..

Mark, "...I still think he's great. Blood On The Tracks is one of my favorite records, with Tangled Up In Blue. on the last record (Infidels) to hear the first lines of I and I, that's enough to make anybody who writes songs want to retire. it's stunning. Bobs musical ability is limited, in terms of being able to play guitar or a piano. It's rudimentary, but it doesn't affect his variety, his sense of melody, his singing. It's all there. In fact some of the things he does on piano while he's singing are lovely, even though they're rudimentary. That all demonstrates the fact you don't have to be a great technician. It's the same old story: if something is played with soul, that's what's important. ..."

"...but I think Bob is much more disciplined as a writer of lyrics, as a poet. He's an absolute genius. As a singer - absolute genius. But musically, I think it's a lot more basic. The music just tends to be a vehicle for that poetry."

Although the singing quality is completely different on the albums of the last decade, I think Marks words hold true today. Can I crown myself Defender Of The Bob now?

[goldenheart96]

Very interesting, thanks Fletch, for sharing! So I wasn't completely wrong with my first attempt of finding differences and similarities 

And oh yes, I'm sure there are a couple of MK/DS songs Bob could sing. Now that you've mentioned "Industrial Disease", what about "Sultans"? Didn't quite a few people think it was a Bob Dylan song when it came out, because of the singing?

[MarkB]

In his book Chronicles Dylan complained about how a lot of people ignored the musical content of his songs and focused entirely on the words. I haven't got the book to hand right now but he basically said that musicians understood his stuff wasn't all about the words, as an example he mentioned Duane Eddy recorded an instrumental album of his songs. On the rare occasions he has co-written songs(on the Desire & Together Through Life albums) he has worked with another lyricist and written the music by himself. TTL is is most recent album and there are a fair few derivative blues tunes on the record but also some gorgeous melodies-Life Is Hard, Forgetful Heart and (my favourite) I Feel A Change Coming On.

For me the simple chord changes in a lot of his songs are because his musical roots are in blues and folk music, there are plenty of examples of songs with more sophisticated chord sequences so the tunes that are 'simple' are down to his musical choices and not because of any limitations he has as a musician. He can be an excellent guitarist when he wants to-the two albums of old blues/folk tunes he made in the early 90's (Good As I Been To You & World Gone Wrong) feature some wonderful guitar playing.

I do agree that a lot of Dylan fans make idiotic comments about other artists, the ridiculous criticism of Mark Knopfler on some forums depresses me. I also love Paul Simon.

[Mossguitar]

I think MK's singing of the 1980 tour was very inspired by His Bobness. Just listen to any bootleg or video on YouTube. I seem to remember that Bob once said that "Mark Knopfler does me better than I do" or something. When my uncle first heard Sultans in a disco in Lisbon in 1978 or -9, he thought it was Bob Dylan. So I guess there were some similarities in singing style.

I've had the pleasure of playing some of Bob's music in concerts from time to time the last couple of years. I ocationally play in a kind of a Bob Dylan tribute band, and we've played the whole Slow Train album (the album's 30 years aniversary) and songs from albums like Infidels, Blood on the tracks, Desire, Oh mercy and many more. Last Friday, celebrating Bob's 70 year aniversary, we played under the band name Forever Young (we change the name in front of every performance). From playing Bob's music, I don't think there are too many similarities between him and MK musically. The Slow Train Coming album is an exception.

[Tally]

For the closest ties between MK and Dylan, Slow Train is obviously your best choice, as Pick Withers played drums on that album and MK guitar. However, make sure that you dig out You Shall Be Changed, a sublime outtake that ended up as a single b-side or something. Absolutely wonderful, with some of MK's best playing from that period.

[arabia]

Interesting thread, first off thanks to Jackal for shouting out Ry Cooder, I haven't listened to him in years but 'Pull Up Some Dust and Sit Down' is my soundtrack this Sat morning thanks to your comment and youtube  

I agree with the comments of others regarding Knopfler being melody or music first and Dylan message first. In fact I think this is born out in Dylan's case by how he frequently changes the musical landscape of old songs, tour by tour, to keep them a fresh vehicle for the messages he sings, which are usually unchanged. I'm not saying either doesn't care about the other aspect, but it at least SEEMS to me that it is the case that they have different priorities.

I don't know enough about either one to know how they write but it wouldn't surprise me if Knopfler starts with melodies and riffs and adds words and Dylan did the opposite.I am really growing to like Knopflers lyrics because they are just so broad. To have someone write from the perspective of a Napoleonic soldier, a stock car driver, or a black gospel singer in the 50's American south doesn't happen every day.

How they are similar? Well for one I think it seems you need to already know all the words before you attend a show as neither seems to enunciate or sing clearly in concert.

Anyways I like that I can enjoy them both and I don't have to decide that one is good and the other bad.(maybe I'm not a real fan )

[superval99]

Anyways I like that I can enjoy them both and I don't have to decide that one is good and the other bad.(maybe I'm not a real fan )

I think that it's possible to like both for their different qualities - MK for his guitar work, melodies, his very comforting voice, especially when I'm in an alien place!   BD for his words, which are like poetry!    MK's lyrics are wonderful too, of course!  In fact, these days he is becoming much more of a lyricist.

Me, I'm definitely more of an MK fan, but I have listened to Dylan since '61 and never seen him live, until Monday!   I'm looking forward to the concert very much!   

[MarkB]

Some(probably most?) songwriter/performers regard making records as the definitive version of the songs. Dylan doesn't, he has said many times that the recordings were never just the way the songs sounded at the time of recording. I think that's a major reason why he often radically alters the songs in concert.

The vast number of studio out-takes availabe officially or unofficially are fascinating because there's often a big difference in music and lyrics between various versions of the 'same' song. Even when the lyrics don't change much from take to take the music if often very different.

Bob said one time that the only album where he wrote the words first and then put them to music was John Wesley Harding. However I'm pretty sure a lot of the songs released on The Basement Tapes probably started as lyrics(and of course those songs were written around the same time as JWH) He also definitely wrote the words first to some ofthe songs on Oh Mercy because in his book Chronicles he writes about how a serious hand injury prevented him from playing guitar so some of the songs that ended up on OM started out as just lyrics on paper until his hand healed and he could put music to them.

So for me as a Dylan nut(!) my opinion is that he regards the music as being more important than lyrics and probably regards himself more as a a musician and performer who just happens to write songs as well.

I really hope MK fans reading some of the rude and ignorant comments  on Dylan forums about Mark don't think those people are representative of Dylan fans. I can never understand why people feel the need to write so many negative posts on message boards, it's not as if they're going to change anyones opinion.

[Pottel]

Some(probably most?) songwriter/performers regard making records as the definitive version of the songs. Dylan doesn't, he has said many times that the recordings were never just the way the songs sounded at the time of recording. I think that's a major reason why he often radically alters the songs in concert.

The vast number of studio out-takes availabe officially or unofficially are fascinating because there's often a big difference in music and lyrics between various versions of the 'same' song. Even when the lyrics don't change much from take to take the music if often very different.

Bob said one time that the only album where he wrote the words first and then put them to music was John Wesley Harding. However I'm pretty sure a lot of the songs released on The Basement Tapes probably started as lyrics(and of course those songs were written around the same time as JWH) He also definitely wrote the words first to some ofthe songs on Oh Mercy because in his book Chronicles he writes about how a serious hand injury prevented him from playing guitar so some of the songs that ended up on OM started out as just lyrics on paper until his hand healed and he could put music to them.

So for me as a Dylan nut(!) my opinion is that he regards the music as being more important than lyrics and probably regards himself more as a a musician and performer who just happens to write songs as well.

I really hope MK fans reading some of the rude and ignorant comments  on Dylan forums about Mark don't think those people are representative of Dylan fans. I can never understand why people feel the need to write so many negative posts on message boards, it's not as if they're going to change anyones opinion.

  guess it is the safety of being anonymous, or better, the cowardness.
whatever, i am truly grateful to see so many broadminded dylan lovers on here.