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Author Topic: Europe?  (Read 27672 times)

OfflineJules

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #90 on: November 22, 2012, 12:51:28 PM »
That all politicians lies is a very big truth that have in Spain a big example of it.

The political party that rules the country, the PP, based all his campaign in critize everything that the previous party (PSOE) was doing and promising that they won
So Long

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #91 on: November 22, 2012, 01:41:30 PM »
jbaent I was reading your reply and I thought for a moment that you are Greek! Exactly the same situation. To the letter!
Do you have an alternative political party (even outside the parliament) that offers a viable solution?
The viability, to my knowledge, has little to do with pleasing everybody, especially the banks and the corporate business that own almost every aspect of technology. But this factor has to be taken it to consideration, since these interests will oppose to all the changes with  all their force and money.
People with kidney failure and cancer are suffering in Greece, because they don't get their treatment as they should, because IMF,EU and ECB had ordered cuts and reforms in the health system. That means in simple words PRIVATIZATION. It is a death sentence, for the ill and unprotected.  They were so scared that a leftish party would win the government (and what this means)  that they voted for the same people that brought us in this mess! And the farmers did the same! And the richer 10% of the people also. So we ended up with the same government we had before the elections!

 
How do you know a politician lies? His lips are moving.
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

OfflineJules

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #92 on: November 22, 2012, 01:58:42 PM »
The thing is not that there are political parties that offers a viable solution, there is not a viable solution as long as everybody allows the banks, the markets and Germany (Brussels, whatever) dictate the rules for us.

There are more political parties, but for so many years, Spanish people tend to vote to the two biggest ones, so when one made it wrong, people vote the other. And right now they are the same useless sh*t, but people are straight minded, they will vote them again.

And whats the solution when some European countries believe that the only solution to the crisis is making them poorer with the economical rescues, while they become reacher?

Would be a solution if Portugal, Spain, Greece, Ireland etc decides to leave the EU and the Euro and try to start from zero?

What its clear its right now, Europe is being divided between poor and rich.
So Long

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #93 on: December 14, 2012, 04:37:51 PM »
Nobel price for Peace ?? the European Union! That is fantastic. And what's next, an Oscar for special FX? All these fireworks are looking much like the peace treaties signed just before the war. The body of Europe is torn apart and a Nobel price is a bandage. It is not a joke, it is very serious, because it is clear now that economical powers have infiltrated everywhere.
It is a poor stand, though, so probably no Oscar for them.
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #94 on: January 17, 2013, 09:44:55 PM »
http://shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html

A nice article about social groups! Since Europe is a group, and AMIT is a group,  I find it fit to post it here, but it is focusing on the social media groips. Very intresting read. Believe me!
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

OfflineFletch

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #95 on: January 18, 2013, 11:27:19 AM »
I am bemused by how much irregular publicity and headlines that are given to the "impending collapse of The European Union" or "financial chaos".
Is it because I live in a relatively stable economy that nothing seems to change or is there great upheaval over there????
Hey, i`ve got a truffle dog - finally a song the ordinary man can relate too!

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #96 on: January 18, 2013, 04:07:44 PM »
Hi Fletch! "Divide and conquer"  is exactly what happens in Europe. And I am talking about people in the same nations. Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Ireland. Even the big ones have problems.
EU was formed on the basis of many common beliefs (Christianity, philosophy, aims, etc) The economic aspect of the Union even though it was important and was considered (before EU we had EEC which stood for European Economic Community), took over the last 14 years. The money was plenty and the future was wide open. People cared less and less about the corruprion in politics because they had jobs and social security.
The ones that really cared about a different future and not just growing old and getting a pension, were ringing the bell for at least 20 years in Greece. They claimed (and they are proven correct) that you can't live on borrowed money, you can not bridge the differences in the ways people think by voting for a European constitution and last but not least, you should slow down a bit with economy and put people first.  The ones that cared predicted more or less that we were heading straight to this mess. The signs were there. I was one of them, and I know why I could see this thing coming. Because I never asked for political favours and when they were given for free I never accepted them, I was working for the last 20 years, and only in 2010 for the first and last time I reached (for 5 months)  a salary close to 1000 Euros (married with children). I never needed more money, I was living a modest life. Of course I couldn't put anything in the bank, or buy a nice home, or even apply for a loan or credit card! But that is why I could see what was going on. In the US they swiped all freedoms and subdued the outcries after 2001. In Europe they just found other ways to do the same thing. 

Today I went to an interview and for 25 hours a week I was offered 370 Euros!!!! The tragic thing and in spite of being a 10:00-15:00 job, I am about to say yes. My only concern is that my rent is 650 Euros and the landlord won't accept a cut. I am looking for a way out, going abroad but unfortunately I am not a doctor or engineer!


If the Mass Media were to expose what is going on in every country in Europe, and I am not talking numbers and statistics, but real situations, like how the cuts in public health  decrease the life expectancy, and how many people are living in the streets etc, all citizens of Europe would realise that they are all taken for a wild ride. Even the "safe" countries, like Germany and France. And I am very much afraid for Australia as well.

When you are living in a financial chaos, and after 4 years it becomes your reality, you have to rename it somehow, simply because it has become the standard. But photos of how this affects people are there to see. They just don't care. They say they do, but they are unable to help. This is because they are not allowed to take any decisions on their own, and the vicious cycle of borrowing money can never be broken. I mean why not have the empty public buildings given to the homeless? Why don't they start building workers' homes? Why don't they distribute the crops and fruits that rot on the trees because it is not economically viable to pay people to collect them?  Why the EU still accepts without serious restrictions, imports of goods  from Argentina, Egypt, China, India etc. that European countries of the south produce in vast quantities, enough to cover the demand of the whole Europe?
 Why every value  is attached and analyses in money value?
These politicians are just puppets. There are no clean cases of politicians, and most of them are blackmailed to vote for laws that are ruining the countries.
Fletch, I had a talk some months ago with an Australian couple, (with Greek roots) and they were describing the whole situation in Australia. It was like living again the situation in Greece from the early 90ies. I can only say beware man, even though Australia is a different story and size, the situation sounded so familiar. The same patterns, the same methods. 
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

Offlinedmg

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #97 on: January 18, 2013, 05:11:10 PM »
Well said.  This could almost be linked to my thread about Christmas shopping on the high street.  It may be interesting for those of you living abroad to note that in the last week we have lost 4 shops from our high street here in the UK.  These are:

HMV (record/DVD store)
Jessops (photography store)
Blockbuster (video rental store)
"...and I blew up the radio in pretty short order."

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #98 on: January 20, 2013, 09:39:36 PM »
Athens is a graveyard of hopes, dreams and future. 1 out of 2 shops in every street is closed for more than 3 years and the count goes on. Even big franchise like Fnac (left Greece 2-3 years ago), MacDonald's (reduced heavily) Wendy's (none left) and many many more.
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

Offlinenababo

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #99 on: January 30, 2013, 02:40:30 PM »
Dear greek man

I haven't seen this post for a while, now I finished read your last contributions. Can you tell me how is your country going nowadays? Any glimpse of hope for the next future?

Best regards
Love over gold, mind over matter

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #100 on: January 30, 2013, 05:16:09 PM »
Hi Nababo!
Glad to ! Put my thoughts in order as well!

1. The laws that our politicians are passing are forced by the IMF, ECB and EU. They claim, that without the passing of these laws we don't get any new loans from those three and we have to declare bankruptcy. They also claim that these laws are not good, but they have to vote for them, probably gaining some time and hoping for a miracle. In fact we are going deeper into recession and with less chances to emerge soon. But instead of saying NO , they still drag us into the abyss with no hope.
And by the way, most of these laws are against Our Constitution! And people of Greece never voted directly for the EU constitution.

2.The Prime Minister is looking for investors, but although thegovernment has created a new slavery for the workers nobody seems willing to come! They have passed laws that do not recognize working  experience, diplomas and languages, while they are about to banish the marriage benefit and the children benefits are already halfway down the drain. (Children are not recognized as an additional expense for the family, so if you have kids you are taxed the same with someone who doesn't) They have outlawed  the collective workers salary agreements and force everybody to settle with their bosses, (you know the type :" if you don't like it you can leave")  while they have lowered the salary limit to 580 Euros and they have made the flexible hours a devastating reality! I was offered a 5 hour job for 370 Euros but it was cutting my day in half, practically not allowing me to do a second job. And most flexible jobs are like this. Also two of the days of the week there was an addition of 3 hours, but in the evening, so I had to leave for an hour and return again! The legal break is lost in there, without getting paid! So working all day for peanuts!  But the unemployment is still going up and it is almost certain that new jobs for 1,5 million people can not be created very easily or soon enough. Unemployment benefit is for one year only in Greece. After that you receive no money (it was 470 for me, with 2 kids).  The state could counter balance this with other things, like not paying fare to the city transportation, when you are looking for a job, or give away the free crops that are left to rot on the trees and fields, because it is too expensive for the farmers to collect and too cheap to sell. Or build new workers houses in order to drive down both prices and rent! Or enforce rent control, like 20 years ago!

3. The new taxes are creating a new reality. Since they are not willing to catch the grand tax evaders (they are their friends and sponsors,  or the "investors" I have mentioned earlier) they have to find the missing budget money from the same people, US! So  two new taxes for your home, retroactive from 2009! They do not take into consideration anything, be that you already pay a loan for this house, or you don't live in this house because it is not habbitable. Paying your loan  has stopped being tax deductible! They are about to vote for new taxes on everything you own. If your grandfather left you a small room in your village or even a small plot of land that doesn't produce anything, they are going to add them up to the rest of your possessions (like the only house you have and live in) and tax you like you are a big land owner. They say that a family has the right to live in a house up to 120 sqm. If the man or woman has an extra  room or land from heritage,  they add it up and force them to pay dearly for the difference. It is outrageous. And the big problem is that most people just don't have the money to pay those taxes, and it is hard to sell houses and land these days even for 10% of its value! 

4. No jobs with fair conditions can be found. The companies that still function, just took advantage of the new laws to gain more money from the pay cuts. They didn't need to do it, but they did it anyway. It was a gift from the government to them. Of course this means less money in the market, less taxes to be collected and a vicious cycle all over again. I can not accept any job too far away from home, because the strikes are very often and I will either be unable to go to work or pay most of my salary to get there by taxi!

5.There is no sense and stability in the tax department. They change the laws and rules 3 times each year. No wonder new investors don't come or even consider coming. And the same goes for health, education and justice. We had so many changes after 1974 that nothing was given enough time to show results. I wonder why...

6. Greeks have a high level of educated young (<40) people. University degrees are quite common. Masters and PhDs are common enough for the people that have them to create trouble finding a job!   Most Greeks (<40)  speak at least one foreign language (English) in Lower level. A high percentage have studied abroad so his language skills are near proficiency. Many speak a second language (Spanish, French or German) and quite a few 3 or 4 languages. Our great income as a country is said to be TOURISM, but still no works at this field. Great hotels are built but  apart from hiring people from other countries (like Pakistan, Albania etc) because they are willing to work for much less, they also provide very low prices for full accommodation (usually not available to Greeks)  and people don't get out of the hotels-resorts! So actually all the money are concentrated to these big hotels. Nothing goes out to the microeconomy of the places. And taxes for profits of big corporations is strangely very low!

7. Greece is the only country in Europe that has boarders with Asia. People from all over the world that are willing to come to Europe illegally, just do it  by entering from Greece. Greece has vast boarders, given that there are hundreds of islands and only a river boarder with Turkey. Still EU considers that it is only Greece's problem (actually they have created a force called Frontex, but it is only a way to avoid the issue) and when an immigrant is caught anywhere in the EU, he is sent back to the point of entry (usually Greece) and Greece has to make all the steps for his deportation. I don't have any problem with all these people. They are looking for a better future away from their countries and families. This is already hard enough for them. And they don't even want to stay here in Greece. It has nothing to give them. And since Greece was never strong enough as a country to influence the world economy or a big colonial power that drained the people and resources of foreign lands, it is somehow weird that it has to stop all these people and carry the weight alone and  suffer the consequences on behalf of the countries that actually  made  the world as it is today.   

8. Every value in Greece is counted in money. No human value. No history value. No civil rights. No nothing. And since money as a value is not steady, they have managed to de-value every property in Greece. They said that they are going to find Gas and Oil, Gold and Uranium, but with the rates and manners they are forcing us to "solve" the problems and borrow their money, these are already sold and bought in future prices. And the desperate as you know has no demands...

9. The most serious problem of all, is that the philosophy of life of the common Greek has changed dramatically. His faith in God, his over-view of the world and his relation with the people and nature has been degraded significantly. I fear that focusing on money and the economy and not trying to find solutions that are not using money as the only  value, (and EU, IMF and ECB point only to this direction)  deepens the problem. There is no hope for the next 20 years. I consider myself part of a lost generation. And lost because either it will be kept down to its knees or make changes the hard way. 


Hope these points answer your question a bit. Let me know in case I have left something out or if you need more details.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 07:18:11 PM by vgonis »
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

Offlinedmg

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #101 on: January 30, 2013, 06:09:29 PM »
Not so much a "lost generation," but a part of an important piece of the history in your country (albeit a sad one).  It is important to keep your head up and follow what you believe is right.

In different times I really would like to think other countries would be more willing to help but regretfully, it looks like the rest of Europe is finished too, to a lesser extent.  The USA also.
"...and I blew up the radio in pretty short order."

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #102 on: January 30, 2013, 07:29:12 PM »
dmg you are probably right. But it is pretty hard to see it this way (somehow putting it in a future perspective-looking back) because these changes usually come out of despair. And despair means that you simply don't care about the results, you are like a trapped and hurt animal. If everybody did what they believed as right, we would either be living in Paradise or (most probably ) hell. And that is exactly how they have managed to do all this harm without too much fuss. We still believe that democracy no matter how many flaws, is still the best way to avoid bloodshed. And of course if you don't believe that a revolution will change things, you simply don't do it! Countries of Europe have the power to overcome the problem and set a new example to the whole world. It has the technology, the arts, the resources, the wit and wisdom and has learnt the lessons of all the WW better that anybody else. It is vital to happen soon, not only for the lives of people but for the planet itself. We have let economy over rule ecology. Everything is so cheap, because the environment is paying the difference.
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

Offlinenababo

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #103 on: January 30, 2013, 07:45:56 PM »
Hi there

Sad to hear all those bad things happening.

Brazil had passed through a similar situation during the 90's. Practically, IMF ruled our lives. Jobs without warranties, public companies sold by the pound, no public money to infrastructure... I hope you can get ride of it very soon. I don't know what can be done. What I know is that here in my country the government who took over in 2003 didn't change much of the big relations with the big international investors, but started to look ant the small economy of small farmers, little towns, people under poverty line, and this put the economy on track again, little by little.
Love over gold, mind over matter

Offlinevgonis

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Re: Europe?
« Reply #104 on: January 30, 2013, 08:01:35 PM »
Nababo, Brazil is a vast country. It is in the 10 largest of the world, both size and population. It moves and the world pays attention.  And yet somehow  it took 20 years to get over the shock. In Greece the optimists say we are going to get back on track by the year 2030. If they allow us! I can't wait that long, not because I lack patience, but because they are doing it all wrong on purpose. And because  I will be 60 by then, with no future. I will also have no past and the present... well it will be  much like today.
I am an optimist too. I will not give up, let's hope that people can wake up. And as Chomsky used to say for the South American liberation armies, TV makes it hard to tell apart a freedom fighter   from a terrorist.
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

 

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