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Author Topic: The tour ended - Conclusions  (Read 59437 times)

Offlinedmg

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Re: The tour ended - Conclusions
« Reply #150 on: December 16, 2012, 12:32:21 PM »
Glasgow recently doubled for Philadelphia!  Scarlett Johansson was too well wrapped up though!

If HSB wasn't set in NCY then The Equalizer certainly was.  Music from Stewart Copeland from The Police.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 12:36:35 PM by dmg »
"I'm playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order."

OfflineRkd

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Re: The tour ended - Conclusions
« Reply #151 on: December 18, 2012, 06:37:35 AM »
Happy Holidays everyone!


Offlinedmg

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Re: The tour ended - Conclusions
« Reply #152 on: December 18, 2012, 12:25:43 PM »
Happy Holidays everyone!



That's wonderful!  I can't top that so I'll just say Merry Christmas. :wave
"I'm playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order."

OfflineVesper

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Re: The tour ended - Conclusions
« Reply #153 on: December 19, 2012, 03:50:09 PM »
Nice!!

Where did you get the other pictures from? (the one's that are not in Guy's diaries)

OfflineRkd

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Re: The tour ended - Conclusions
« Reply #154 on: December 19, 2012, 08:52:40 PM »
I took the pics that weren't Guy's when I was at the Madison and St. Paul concerts. Glad you liked the Christmas card.

P.S. That's why in some of the pics, Mark's head is partially cut off - amateur hour. I really need to take a photography class!

Offlinetwm

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Re: The tour ended - Conclusions
« Reply #155 on: December 19, 2012, 11:17:00 PM »
Dundee in Scotland  doubled for Moscow in some TV spy drama many years ago.

And there actually is a place in Scotland called Moscow (which couldn't double for very much, as it is quite "wee").

Offlinedmg

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Re: The tour ended - Conclusions
« Reply #156 on: December 19, 2012, 11:53:48 PM »
Dundee in Scotland  doubled for Moscow in some TV spy drama many years ago.

And there actually is a place in Scotland called Moscow (which couldn't double for very much, as it is quite "wee").

Population 118.  He he  - you learn something new every day! ;D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow,_Scotland
"I'm playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order."

Offlinesweetsurrender

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Re: The tour ended - Conclusions
« Reply #157 on: December 20, 2012, 05:57:38 AM »
Happy Holidays everyone!



That was great ! I enjoyed it a lot.  Happy Holidays to everyone too. !! It has indeed been a wonderful year !

Offlinetwm

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Re: The tour ended - Conclusions
« Reply #158 on: December 20, 2012, 11:00:57 AM »
This post gathers together a few bits and pieces from here and there, so I'll apologise in advance:

1. MOSCOW: Long ago,  I lived not far from Moscow, Ayrshire but I still looked at the Wiki entry and discovered one or two new bits of information. Always welcome.

2. ARTISTIC DEVELOPMENT: Maybe not the right thread but I can't recall which is the right one. Some of you may recall Don Was from the Was Not Was tour with DS. The following link is actually about his producing a Dylan album "Under The Red Sky"  but don't worry, you don't have to read the lot but please read the two paragraphs under the video interview link:

http://kearth101.cbslocal.com/2012/12/13/don-was-on-producing-under-the-red-sky-i-dont-think-i-was-of-great-service-to-bob-dylan/

The apposite paragraph is this one: He continues:

Offlinesuperval99

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Re: The tour ended - Conclusions
« Reply #159 on: December 20, 2012, 11:31:17 AM »
Thank you, twm!    I will be in Glasgow on 17th and 18th January for the 20th Anniversary concert of Celtic Connections and also the next night for the Vincente Amigo concert with John, Mike, Danny, Guy and Ewen Vernal in the band.  It would have been lovely to see Heidi Talbot performing with John, but unfortunately that would have meant another visit to Glasgow! 
Goin' into Tow Law....

Offlinevgonis

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Re: The tour ended - Conclusions
« Reply #160 on: December 20, 2012, 11:53:15 AM »
twm, quite interesting post this one. I would really like to talk to you about such matters if we ever meet, but for the time being I will have to settle with this sort of communication.
I really like the dynamics of the Don Was thesis and understand what he is saying, but I really don't agree.
1. The producer is chosen to bring certain results and qualities he usually has instilled in previous works.
2.The actual thing of course is to have a chemistry with the artist, so he can understand what is the best thing for the artist and the songs, but still having in mind the aforementioned qualities.
3.Don Was, was the new thing and sound back then and in fact brought out the best (?) at least sales wise for a lot older artists back then. So he might have actually be driving Dylan towards a new sound, if that was the sole objective.  But is this a vital objective in music or any other kind of art?
4.I know that Dylan fans, usually say that Under the red sky is actually a fine record. I won't argue with this, but still it is nothing like the previous Oh, Mercy or the next original Time out of mind. But maybe the problem lies in the compositions and not the production...
5. The point I am trying to make sums up to this: I don't really care for "avant garde" or "breaking new ground" or "sounding different". If you have a nice song, it is a nice song even if it reminds you of 1960ies. After all when I first heard Dylan's "Blonde on blonde, 24 years after its original release it was NEW to me and it sounded (and still sounds) fresh, true and for me! Of course from the artist's point of view, it is always a road already traveled, a crossroad already crossed and in a linear history (human brain is attracted by this but actually works differently) a road you can not go back (or at least you avoid to do so).
6.That said I really understand the extra added value of something nice that also breaks the known boundaries of art, thus giving the world new ways to look at things, to dream and to express his feelings, but since the recorded history of music is by now so vast that we simply don't have enough time to delve into it, the main priority is to write a fine song, a nice tune and then worrying about breaking new ground. After all, we only understand this new sound in retrospect, most of the times. It is either neglected in its time or ridiculed.
7. The whole thing misses one vital point: the relation amongst the artist, the audience, the record company and the producer. Each one of them has usually a different reason and view about the record. For the artist, the  really important thing is the creative procedure and not so much  the outcome. For the audience it is the experience it can get from the recording. For the company it is the money it can make. And then we have the producer that if he is doing his job consciously, he has to take into account all these wants and needs and make them real. It is a hard ask, a load sometimes too heavy to carry. I tend to believe that Under the red sky suffers from compositions and well, actually Dylan was not as confined as Was thought. But no one had the upper hand and that is why the record is a bit off balance! There was no chemistry (like with Lanois) to bring the best  ideas to life and formulate them into recorded music.       
8. His last 3-4 records use old forms of music and apart the shiny production, they could have been the product of late 60ies and 70ies. And they are considered to be some of his best (I don't quite agree). Still they are great, but breaking new ground? Not repeating himself (or older artists)? Hmmmmm...
Come on, it is not funny anymore.

Offlinejbaent

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Re: The tour ended - Conclusions
« Reply #161 on: December 20, 2012, 12:00:27 PM »
Thank you, twm!    I will be in Glasgow on 17th and 18th January for the 20th Anniversary concert of Celtic Connections and also the next night for the Vincente Amigo concert with John, Mike, Danny, Guy and Ewen Vernal in the band.  It would have been lovely to see Heidi Talbot performing with John, but unfortunately that would have meant another visit to Glasgow!

I guess you mean VICENTE (he
You might get lucky, now and then

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Offlinesuperval99

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Re: The tour ended - Conclusions
« Reply #162 on: December 20, 2012, 12:07:26 PM »
Thank you, twm!    I will be in Glasgow on 17th and 18th January for the 20th Anniversary concert of Celtic Connections and also the next night for the Vincente Amigo concert with John, Mike, Danny, Guy and Ewen Vernal in the band.  It would have been lovely to see Heidi Talbot performing with John, but unfortunately that would have meant another visit to Glasgow!

I guess you mean VICENTE (he
Goin' into Tow Law....

Offlinetwm

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Re: The tour ended - Conclusions
« Reply #163 on: December 20, 2012, 11:04:23 PM »
vgonis, I should start by saying that Under The Red Sky is not one of my favourite Dylan albums. I am prepared to accept that there is nothing wrong with reworking the themes, phrases and thrust of nursery rhymes and I am prepared to accept that Dylan is doing so in an allegorical way rather than a literal way. Not my thing but all well and good. That doesn't mean I have to like the songs, though.  "Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee", for example, has never resonated with me and "Wiggle Wiggle" may be fun in concert but that's just about all.  The album is dedicated to "Gabby Goo Goo", who is Desiree Gabrielle Dennis-Dylan, a daughter born in 1986. This, perhaps, explains alll the nursery rhyme elements to the album.

Some of the songs do lift somewhat above those ("Unbelievable", Handy Dandy" and even "Cat's In The Well" came across well to me) but it is an unsettling album (which is not bad in itself) but one that, overall, I've never really warmed to. Take a line like "None of them doing nothing that your mama wouldn't disapprove" (from "10,000 Men"); all those negatives (double, triple and quadruple negatives) seem to amount to: "All of them doing something of which your mother would approve". Even now, I'm not sure about that. Maybe I will come to like, and even enjoy, the album some day.

After "Oh Mercy", I found it a disappointment. I don't think that the "star" musicians on the album actually help very much. There's a whole bunch of them: Slash, Waddy Wachtel, David Crosby,  Bruce Hornsby, Robben Ford, Stevie Ray Vaughan, his brother, Elton John, David Lindley and  George Harrison to name some. I'm not saying they played badly but it was more like, "Let's pile a lot of well-known musicians into the mix and surely we'll get something good out of it". It is interesting to compare the "Oh Mercy" out-take version of "Born In Time" with the version on "Under The Red Sky". I prefer the earlier version, though "God Knows" on "Under The Red Sky", also a left-over from "Oh Mercy", is pretty strong in the later version.

All of that is to indicate that, star producer or not, Don Was didn't add much to the album, in my opinion, other than a few star names. But, to be clear about my position, I have no quibble about Dylan recording it or releasing it. I do wonder what the early demos of the songs might have been like (assuming there were early demos). Whatever Dylan felt about the album and whether or not he lost his song-writing mojo, he didn't release an album of new songs for another seven years.

In terms of breaking new ground, I wasn't really suggesting something "avant-garde" each time, merely that a writer and perfomer has to move forward and cannot allow himself or herself to be bogged down in the past or to be trapped by the past. There will usually be something of the past in whatever is produced currently ("nothing comes of nothing", they say) but, when the past becomes a trap from which one cannot escape, then artistic development is stifled. Dylan, in recent years, has to some extent returned to a past that predates his own appearance on the scene. In that sense, it is new for him. It doesn't have to be "avant garde", as I say. And, in a similar way, Mark has returned to his own roots and then embellished and developed them in his own way (and in, what one might describe as, a contemporary manner). That's all.

« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 02:04:21 AM by twm »

Offlinedmg

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Re: The tour ended - Conclusions
« Reply #164 on: December 20, 2012, 11:24:08 PM »
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 11:26:32 PM by dmg »
"I'm playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order."

 

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