Holly Vincent was only 19 when Mark was nearly 30

[dustyvalentino]

But if you are right, there must be an unknown woman between Kathy and Holly, interesting thoughts.

I don't think so. mark would have wrote at least one song about her then.....

The woman in Laughs and Jokes?

[JF]

But if you are right, there must be an unknown woman between Kathy and Holly, interesting thoughts.

I don't think so. mark would have wrote at least one song about her then.....

The woman in Laughs and Jokes?

I thought that Laughs and Jokes was about his studient life, so before his first mariage ?

[ingridswing]

But if you are right, there must be an unknown woman between Kathy and Holly, interesting thoughts.

I don't think so. mark would have wrote at least one song about her then.....

The woman in Laughs and Jokes?

I thought that Laughs and Jokes was about his studient life, so before his first mariage ?

LAJADAS is from when he lived in London in a studio with some pals, so indeed before his marriage

[WaterofLove]

But if you are right, there must be an unknown woman between Kathy and Holly, interesting thoughts.

I don't think so. mark would have wrote at least one song about her then.....

The woman in Laughs and Jokes?

I thought that Laughs and Jokes was about his studient life, so before his first mariage ?

LAJADAS is from when he lived in London in a studio with some pals, so indeed before his marriage

He moved to London after his divorce. He worked as a journalist in Leeds and then got a bachelor in English at the university of Leeds in 1973. He divorced Kathy and then moved to London where he taught English and played in BD. He married Kathy when he was 22 I think, and divorced her at 24. Kathy was a girl he knew from Newcastle (they were high school sweethearts I presume) and I think his farmwork career was on her father's farm. So I guess he was in a relationship/married the entire time he studied in Leeds. Maybe the song is from the time he shared the flat in Deptford with DK and JI.

I am quite surprised if he did not have any girlfriends between Kathy and Holly, it is the most of his 20's, but I agree that he would most likely have written a song about her. So the question is, why didn't he have someone? Was his heart broken after Kathy? Afraid to get hurt again? Or was he never the "ladies man" before the success?

[WaterofLove]

Holly lived in London and maybe she had the same UK manager (Bicknell)?

The oldfield book says that Holly's mangers were Ed and Paul

The Boston bootleg is from September 79, and it is likely that was the evening she dumped him on the phone.

difficult to say. The oldfield book says that the 2nd american tour from 79 began on 8th september, so the Boston gig.
and that Mark began to be more depressed a bit later in the tour.

He saw a doctor and said to him that he was missing Holly
Then it's explained that at this moment Holly was rehearsing in UK, and that Paul phoned her, and then she phoned mark.....

but the book says that this visit to the doctor was in Philadelphia......was it on the 1st american tour in spring ? Maybe the books author confuses a bit between the 2 american tours of the year ?
the book says that Philadelphia was sold out on this 2nd american tour, but there's no bootleg of a gig in Phildadelphia in late 79...

if Holly phoned Mark after his visit to a doctor in Philadelphia, then it was not the same day as the Boston gig

Do you know how he and Holly met in the first place? I guess it was in London, but did Holly have Ed as a manager before she met Mark? Or did Mark help her to get Ed as her manager? I thought he helped her with his American manager and not the British one.

Thanks for the information about the doctor and his depression. Wow, I had no idea he missed Holly so much on the tour. But why did Paul phone Holly and then she broke up? Do you think Paul advised Holly to break up because she affected Mark in a negative way on his tours? He couldn't concentrate and had to have help from a psychiatrist?

Ed said in the Oldfield book that Marks was "illuminated" by Holly, he really was "in love", like we say in the french : "on his little cloud"

This is my impression also, I think Holly was the love of his life. Just seeing that version of R&J so many years later, how emotional he gets... I don't see the same emotions when he sings So far away which is about Lourdes. I agree with Throttle, Holly seems like the person that lived by the principle "'treat them mean, keep them keen". She dumped him on the phone, which tells quite a lot about someone. She used him to "boost her career" as Mark said.  What was so special about Holly? She seems like a more cynical or hard person than both Lourdes and Kitty. I find it quite fascinating that the girl who is the meanest is the one that touched Mark the most.

[JF]

But why did Paul phone Holly and then she broke up? Do you think Paul advised Holly to break up because she affected Mark in a negative way on his tours? He couldn't concentrate and had to have help from a psychiatrist?

not at all.

here is an attempt to resume what is written in the book, it's about only one page that's all. Sorry for my bad translation (I have the french version of the book) :

Mark was really depressed, saw a doctor in Philadelphia and told him he was missing his girlfriend.
then the book explains who she was : singer, same manager, etc...

Paul says he phoned Holly to say to her that Mark was really depressed and that it would be nice if she could have gone to the states during DS'tour, but then she said to Paul that she had already decide to break up with Mark, and that she was going to tell it to him.

Then she phoned Mark, and Ed says that he guessed that she dumped him on phone, but of course, he didn't knew that before the gig. But when he heard Mark singing the song, he understood that something was wrong...
and he says that he sung this song like never before, and that it brought him (Ed) to tears

After that the ambience was really really bad, and that the band was really close to split. Mark didn't say any word, and spent many time beside  the bus driver, without saying anything.
An then in november they went to Scandinavian countries

[Pottel]

Holly lived in London and maybe she had the same UK manager (Bicknell)?

The oldfield book says that Holly's mangers were Ed and Paul

The Boston bootleg is from September 79, and it is likely that was the evening she dumped him on the phone.

difficult to say. The oldfield book says that the 2nd american tour from 79 began on 8th september, so the Boston gig.
and that Mark began to be more depressed a bit later in the tour.

He saw a doctor and said to him that he was missing Holly
Then it's explained that at this moment Holly was rehearsing in UK, and that Paul phoned her, and then she phoned mark.....

but the book says that this visit to the doctor was in Philadelphia......was it on the 1st american tour in spring ? Maybe the books author confuses a bit between the 2 american tours of the year ?
the book says that Philadelphia was sold out on this 2nd american tour, but there's no bootleg of a gig in Phildadelphia in late 79...

if Holly phoned Mark after his visit to a doctor in Philadelphia, then it was not the same day as the Boston gig

Do you know how he and Holly met in the first place? I guess it was in London, but did Holly have Ed as a manager before she met Mark? Or did Mark help her to get Ed as her manager? I thought he helped her with his American manager and not the British one.

Thanks for the information about the doctor and his depression. Wow, I had no idea he missed Holly so much on the tour. But why did Paul phone Holly and then she broke up? Do you think Paul advised Holly to break up because she affected Mark in a negative way on his tours? He couldn't concentrate and had to have help from a psychiatrist?

Ed said in the Oldfield book that Marks was "illuminated" by Holly, he really was "in love", like we say in the french : "on his little cloud"

This is my impression also, I think Holly was the love of his life. Just seeing that version of R&J so many years later, how emotional he gets... I don't see the same emotions when he sings So far away which is about Lourdes. I agree with Throttle, Holly seems like the person that lived by the principle "'treat them mean, keep them keen". She dumped him on the phone, which tells quite a lot about someone. She used him to "boost her career" as Mark said.  What was so special about Holly? She seems like a more cynical or hard person than both Lourdes and Kitty. I find it quite fascinating that the girl who is the meanest is the one that touched Mark the most.

i very much remember the way he sang so far away in 2008, first show in Amsterdam, i was very impressed by the feeling and emotion he put in that song at that time.

[Marijo58]

Wow I see that I missed a great conversation here!!! Really interesting point of views on Mark's relations with women!! I just have something to add, it's only another speculation and it's about the fact that he maybe didn't have any serious relation with another girl after he divorced suddenly from Kathy up until he met Holly!! Wouldn't you be rather in state of shock after what happened during his first marriage that was revealed  in the papers exactly when he married Kitty in 1997!!! Anyway if I were him I would surely have been very hurt and for a long time!!! Speaking about the way his marriage with Kathy ended, I wonder who talked to the Newspaper about Kathy's son born when MK was still legally her husband and why this became public in the middle of his third wedding!! I have an idea about this person but I won't tell it here!!

[WaterofLove]

But why did Paul phone Holly and then she broke up? Do you think Paul advised Holly to break up because she affected Mark in a negative way on his tours? He couldn't concentrate and had to have help from a psychiatrist?

not at all.

here is an attempt to resume what is written in the book, it's about only one page that's all. Sorry for my bad translation (I have the french version of the book) :

Mark was really depressed, saw a doctor in Philadelphia and told him he was missing his girlfriend.
then the book explains who she was : singer, same manager, etc...

Paul says he phoned Holly to say to her that Mark was really depressed and that it would be nice if she could have gone to the states during DS'tour, but then she said to Paul that she had already decide to break up with Mark, and that she was going to tell it to him.

Then she phoned Mark, and Ed says that he guessed that she dumped him on phone, but of course, he didn't knew that before the gig. But when he heard Mark singing the song, he understood that something was wrong...
and he says that he sung this song like never before, and that it brought him (Ed) to tears

After that the ambience was really really bad, and that the band was really close to split. Mark didn't say any word, and spent many time beside  the bus driver, without saying anything.
An then in november they went to Scandinavian countries

Thanks for explaining! He seems so sensitive. Was it Mark's mood after he got dumped by Holly that nearly splitted up the band, because it changed the atmosphere and MK got more depressed? The guitar was after all his dream, so that Holly could have this huge impact on him surprises me

Wow I see that I missed a great conversation here!!! Really interesting point of views on Mark's relations with women!! I just have something to add, it's only another speculation and it's about the fact that he maybe didn't have any serious relation with another girl after he divorced suddenly from Kathy up until he met Holly!! Wouldn't you be rather in state of shock after what happened during his first marriage that was revealed  in the papers exactly when he married Kitty in 1997!!! Anyway if I were him I would surely have been very hurt and for a long time!!! Speaking about the way his marriage with Kathy ended, I wonder who talked to the Newspaper about Kathy's son born when MK was still legally her husband and why this became public in the middle of his third wedding!! I have an idea about this person but I won't tell it here!!

I had no idea that the affair Kathy had got publicly known at the same time he married Kitty. Seems like someone was out to destroy some of his happiness... What an awful thing to do. I think you are right, he must have been devastated after what she did to him. And then he found Holly and was let down again. I think someone on this forum uploaded the article from the paper, do you know where I can read it?

[Marijo58]

No Water of Love, I tried to find this article but you have to pay to have it. Ask someone on this gotum who was on the discussion at the time. I just had the beginning of this article on the Net. Would be interesting to read the rest... I felt sorry for MK when I found out...

Envoyé de mon Ultym 5.2 en utilisant Tapatalk

[WaterofLove]

Thanks for answering, I don't mind paying for reading it, I guess it isn't a fortune anyways

[ds1984]

The Daily Mail article published March 1, 1997 is called "A Secret Wife and the Love Child That Still Haunts Mark Knopfler"

You can get free excerpt :

https://www.questia.com/article/1G1-110801209/a-secret-wife-and-the-love-child-that-still-haunts

Shorter preview also here :

https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-110801209.html

I suspect that both will ask money to access the article in full.

[JF]

Was it Mark's mood after he got dumped by Holly that nearly splitted up the band, because it changed the atmosphere and MK got more depressed? The guitar was after all his dream, so that Holly could have this huge impact on him surprises me

the broke up was not the only one reason of band bad's mood and nearly split situation.
Ed explains that several reasons could explain this : 2 years without any holiday, always in a rush for tour, promo, TV, itw, recording studio,etc... and also constant promiscuity between band members, difficult relation ship between brothers, not very good sales for the Communique album in USA, etc..etc... and of course personnal problems that added to the situation. Ed says that this 2nd american tour in late 79 was evil, catastrophic, regarding human relations

And you can see and hear that mood in the Arena documentary. David explains that this kind of life during 2 years (late 77- late 79) was too too much for him.

So the break up with Holly wasn't the only reason, but of course it was a big part.

[ds1984]

You can add if my memory is good that on some parts the tour was not successful either.

[JF]

You can add if my memory is good that on some parts the tour was not successful either.

yes indeed, especially at the end of the tour (late october I guess), but first places like Boston or Philly were sold out though