Grumpy Artists

[Jules]

I’ve been part of the DS/MK online community since the early interwebs and this might be the best time to be onboard  anyway, it’s clear that MK was in rough shape ’92 if you just check a couple interviews from that period. I think it was pretty much common knowledge back then and up to 00s that he can be at times a difficult person to deal with.

I understand and agree with this, but also agree with Chris Whitten and other forumers, it doesn't matter if you are experiencing difficult times in your life for whatever the reasons, if you are nearly two years on tour with the same people, that people becomes family for that time so at least have a correct relationship should be standard.

However, is easy to say this from the outside, is difficult to put yourself in MK's shoes at that time, and even harder to put in the musician and tecnicians shoes. I remember Joop de Korte telling almost everyone was desperately looking forward to the end of the tour.

[olazabalrok]

I understand and agree with this, but also agree with Chris Whitten and other forumers, it doesn't matter if you are experiencing difficult times in your life for whatever the reasons, if you are nearly two years on tour with the same people, that people becomes family for that time so at least have a correct relationship should be standard.

However, is easy to say this from the outside, is difficult to put yourself in MK's shoes at that time, and even harder to put in the musician and tecnicians shoes. I remember Joop de Korte telling almost everyone was desperately looking forward to the end of the tour.

Yeah, don’t get me wrong, I’m in no way trying to defend MK. Just pointing out it’s been in the public domain that he’s an arse for a loooong time. And it surprises that some are trying to view it any other way. The music is great, love the OES record and tour, my favourite. What’s behind the scenes is another matter and a shame it ended the way it did. Anyway I think in the end MK is a rather introvert person and any difficult emotions and feelings he’ll push into songs rather than bring it up with face to face with someone. The end result we get to enjoy but it takes some casualties on the way.

[quizzaciously]

Everyone who was disappointed with MK must have been wrong in some way...

^^ This ^^

I am sorry, but I must say ^^this^^ is where both of you are wrong. And the surrealism of the situation is such, that from short little messages on a fan forum you create an entire picture of a person and his psychological portrait, provide your diagnosis and seal it off with bold labels like "You always and always put MK as an incarnation of God on Earth" or "silly", or whatever it may be. It's not about WHAT you say, people, it's about HOW you say it. And it's obvious I'm not a fan of how some of you put your words together and attack me personally.

Yeah, the same guy who destroyed the entire topic of the teenage cancer trust project, often won't agree with Guy's view on production, and constantly being annoyed by questionable marketing strategies of Mark like a million bonus tracks and the absence of live albums, who's in fight with everybody on this forum, and who can't care less about the entire MK—the Guitar God agenda, who's not a fan of John's DS book, and a million other things, sure I'm a contender #1 for being a stupid fanboy. Do you really believe in this shit?

I can admit that I'm often over the top in my opinions and push discussion to its limits, but the majority of people just read my message and get exactly what I was trying to say, others read it seemingly with their ass, treat it as a red flag and attack me as if I've killed their pet dog or something (how about language like this? Not pleasant, huh? Two can play that game, hahaha!). TOO MUCH hate is going from some of you, and you know who you are. You can't get away from it by just saying you're defending "the truth". I'm defending myself.

Even in this topic, a lot of people like Jules and other forum members earlier said pretty much the same thing I've said, just in shorter and better ways. I just prefer to push everything to its limits, and try to determine exactly how somebody like MK would feel, why he did something like he did, why he'd make choices that he made, and that's it. I'm not dismissing the facts, I'm not saying Chris is telling lies, I'm not saying I was in the room with Mark and Manu when they discussed the drums. Chill out, guys, it's a discussion forum.

My point is, people who think Mark was an asshole, excuse me, and I reeeeally don't want to say it, are behaving like assholes in this point in time on this very forum, and I find it very entertaining to witness in real time the same processes that could lead to any *put your musician here* behaving like assholes in the first place. Proving that people are always people, and people upset people. And if the length of my messages upsets you, you know where to go. Enough negativity in this world, guys, so I beg you, please stop this war.

[Chris W]

My point is, people who think Mark was an asshole, excuse me, and I reeeeally don't want to say it, are behaving like assholes in this point in time on this very forum

Whatever dude. All I can say is you think it's attacking, you think you are being victimised, you think people who disagree with you are 'assholes'.

I'm just trying to keep things 'real' on the forum.

[wakeywakey]

>My point is, people who think Mark was an asshole, excuse me, and I reeeeally don't want to say it, are behaving like assholes in this point in time on this very forum, and I find it very entertaining to witness in real time the same processes that could lead to any *put your musician here* behaving like assholes in the first place. Proving that people are always people, and people upset people. And if the length of my messages upsets you, you know where to go. Enough negativity in this world, guys, so I beg you, please stop this war.

Unfortunately you are the one who is prolonging the agony of this argument by making the same point with increasing hostility.
If you don't think MK was at fault for the issues on the OES tour then nothing,other than MK saying so himself,is going to change your mind.Fair enough you are entitled to that point of view but you don't help yourself by ignoring what everyone else is saying/has said particularly as many of those actually witnessed the issues.
I have no interest in reading how MK behaved many decades ago and it seems to also upset you so PLEASE stop prolonging these seemingly endless threads on the issue.
You make lots of lovely contributions on many other topics so for the sanity of the forum please move back to those.

[quizzaciously]

>My point is, people who think Mark was an asshole, excuse me, and I reeeeally don't want to say it, are behaving like assholes in this point in time on this very forum, and I find it very entertaining to witness in real time the same processes that could lead to any *put your musician here* behaving like assholes in the first place. Proving that people are always people, and people upset people. And if the length of my messages upsets you, you know where to go. Enough negativity in this world, guys, so I beg you, please stop this war.

Unfortunately you are the one who is prolonging the agony of this argument by making the same point with increasing hostility.
If you don't think MK was at fault for the issues on the OES tour then nothing,other than MK saying so himself,is going to change your mind.Fair enough you are entitled to that point of view but you don't help yourself by ignoring what everyone else is saying/has said particularly as many of those actually witnessed the issues.
I have no interest in reading how MK behaved many decades ago and it seems to also upset you so PLEASE stop prolonging these seemingly endless threads on the issue.
You make lots of lovely contributions on many other topics so for the sanity of the forum please move back to those.

Please, don't tell me what to do, alright? I'm done with some people on this forum, so I'm sorry for being so rude. If you can't stop something politely, if people don't understand, and I tried to be super nice about it, then they are getting what they asked for. I'm not the one who can stand constant attacks and distortion of my words, and if somebody calls me names, I'm not going to turn the other cheek.

[quizzaciously]

My point is, people who think Mark was an asshole, excuse me, and I reeeeally don't want to say it, are behaving like assholes in this point in time on this very forum

Whatever dude. All I can say is you think it's attacking, you think you are being victimised, you think people who disagree with you are 'assholes'.

I'm just trying to keep things 'real' on the forum.

The act of disagreement alone is not enough to call somebody an a-hole. But when people put words in my mouth I never intended to say, and most importantly, say it with 100% confidence, and I'm sitting here scratching my head, I just don't get it. Probably in the same way you are getting annoyed by "guesswork" on this forum. Funny, innit?

Man, I hate text messages because you never understand the intention, emotions and meaning of words, and it's too easy to misinterpret words, as long as you start to actually discuss things and not sing the praises. Now everybody thinks I hate everyone and I think everybody's an a-hole. People, I'm the kindest and politest person you can think of, I can't hurt a fly.

[riton]

Hello,

Everyone, I am not a musician, singer or guitarist, just a fan of DS & MK for decades.

From everything I have read and heard, Mark is certainly not an easy person to work with.
His brother is the first example and many followed in the 80s.
Only John followed him from the beginning to the end of DS.

I do not think and I do not have the pretension, nor the knowledge to affirm that this or that musician is better than another. I love what DK does solo.

I simply think that MK, despite his bad temper, always knew where he wanted to go with or without DS, with or without this or that musician, even if he could never anticipate success.

I can't imagine questioning the talent of Jeff (who I had the chance to see and listen to with Toto) or Manu, simply like with his brother, he always had a very precise idea of ​​what he wanted to hear.

When he started the OES tour, to the great surprise of John and Ed, he was leading one of the biggest bands in the world and that doesn't excuse his behavior or his mood swings.

He brought DS what he wanted to the end, maybe too far.

He never talks about OES as a success, simply an evolution of his music on the scale of one of the biggest bands in the world, which became too much to manage, but he wanted it, and I won't comment on his private life at that time like that of other members.
It may not have worked out as he wanted, but the fact remains that this tour has gathered many fans, it is always a pleasure for me to listen to live performances and I am always impressed by Chris Whitten.
And the other drummers, whom he never chose at random.
Mark has always wanted to evolve his music with or without DS.
Many artists have crossed his path with varying degrees of pleasure.

His solo career shows a change in the stability of the musicians, even if the drummers who have changed the most.
I don't think Danny holds a grudge, he participated in the last tour on percussion, even if it must never be easy not to be renewed.

Times change, music remains, one thing is certain, having played alongside Mark was never a coincidence.
Every musician can be proud of having participated in this wonderful adventure.

[Chris W]

The act of disagreement alone is not enough to call somebody an a-hole. But when people put words in my mouth I never intended to say, and most importantly, say it with 100% confidence, and I'm sitting here scratching my head, I just don't get it.

As others have said.....
A lot of this stuff has been discussed at length for years. The people who were in the room confirm just about all of it.
We can all move on, except when one or two people try to rewrite the truth.
As I said, I didn't make a video with Manu for Youtube. On from that, I didn't post the video on this forum. I didn't even comment, until all the excuses started coming in.
You say you are misunderstood, or at least say things you 'don't mean' to say.
You posted a lengthy comment asking why Manu was angry when Mark asked him to play 'Heavy Fuel'.
From everything we know, Manu had a very tough day playing on 'Planet Of New Orleans' and was ready to go home, then Mark asked him to play 'Heavy Fuel'. It is a super easy song to play, although it's not in Manu's usual style.
When he listened back to Jeff's (no doubt fantastic) version, he asked Mark why he wasn't satisfied with it.
That IS standard practice for studio musicians. 1) You probably know it's tough to do anything better and 2) you need to know why Mark isn't happy with the original drumming, so you can have an insight into what needs to be done better.

None of this needed to be argued, and yet you painted a very different picture of the day. A day you weren't in the studio with Mark and Manu.
Freelance musicians almost NEVER divulge their personal feelings about an artist. It just labels you as difficult and someone who can't be trusted to keep their opinions to themselves. So it's notable that Katche was quite upfront in his opinion....first expressed in a magazine interview many years ago.
 So why do you keep arguing?

[ds1984]

Freelance musicians almost NEVER divulge their personal feelings about an artist. It just labels you as difficult and someone who can't be trusted to keep their opinions to themselves.

Hi Chris,

There is a popular word for that "omerta" and a legal expression "confidential clause".

And this take the public away from the truth.

Manu has kept his mouth closed for years but at some point he had spilled the bean when writing his memoires.

May I suggest that he did it once he was in a positon to be able to do it without the fear to be blacklisted?



For my personal part, and I am probably not alone, I try to understand who Mark is relying on the available facts.

And I want a point clear : finding explanation, event inaccurate explanation is not for my part necesseraly defending someone but really a better "know how" and "know why".

This is obviouly a touchy matter to discuss that with you as  are still very affected by this part in your life.

I have believed for years that Mark bas attitude was relied with his divorce.

Again this was an explanation for me not an excuse.

According to you I understand that Mark bad attitude was deeper than this, and that was other fact that put Mark like this.

Although both facts are right, putting a causality link between them was wrong. So would I said lesson learned for my part.

I am correct?

And this why it is important for me to have people like you or Ed to put some thing in order.

But even Ed had to leave the curtain on many subjects.

So that leaves me with some question that nobody won't be able to answer.

In french when saying "that is human" is not an excuse but only means what human can be: very nice at some time are really shit at others.

Some people will stand as they are all their life, other will evolve.

The thing that I can't explain and that is amazing me is how the 96'r remained mostly unchanged until the very last gig: only the drummer left but apart that, the same musos from 1996 and the folkies once included remained till the end.

I understand that you are not into forgiving mood about the man but how Mark personality, psychology, has changed over the years to keep that team together working extensively for him is question of interest for me.

Another example I recently read that Mark expressed some regret about writing MFN lyric.

Does he has learned from the OES times or not ?

And this where I enter into guessing again so I have to stay on that question.

[herlock]

Even during solo times, some tensions must have occurred.
There was no definite explanation for Chad leaving.
There was none whatsoever for Matt leaving.
Danny has been fired from the band after having introduced Ianto to Mark.
Mike Henderson and Geraint Watkins didn't stay for long.
Only Guy, Richard and Glenn has stayed all the way.

[dmg]

Even during solo times, some tensions must have occurred.
There was no definite explanation for Chad leaving.
There was none whatsoever for Matt leaving.
Danny has been fired from the band after having introduced Ianto to Mark.
Mike Henderson and Geraint Watkins didn't stay for long.
Only Guy, Richard and Glenn has stayed all the way.

Matt was only ever a stand-in for Jim when he had an ear problem and couldn't fly.
Mike and Geriant were guests on that particular tour, Geriant standing in for Jim.

[superval99]

Even during solo times, some tensions must have occurred.
There was no definite explanation for Chad leaving.
There was none whatsoever for Matt leaving.
Danny has been fired from the band after having introduced Ianto to Mark.
Mike Henderson and Geraint Watkins didn't stay for long.
Only Guy, Richard and Glenn has stayed all the way.

Matt was only ever a stand-in for Jim when he had an ear problem and couldn't fly.
Mike and Geriant were guests on that particular tour, Geriant standing in for Jim.

 

Also Danny returned on percussion for the final tour.

[herlock]

Even during solo times, some tensions must have occurred.
There was no definite explanation for Chad leaving.
There was none whatsoever for Matt leaving.
Danny has been fired from the band after having introduced Ianto to Mark.
Mike Henderson and Geraint Watkins didn't stay for long.
Only Guy, Richard and Glenn has stayed all the way.

Matt was only ever a stand-in for Jim when he had an ear problem and couldn't fly.
Mike and Geriant were guests on that particular tour, Geriant standing in for Jim.

The ear problem was in 2001. Matt stayed from 2005 until 2010 included. Must have been other reasons!

[superval99]

Even during solo times, some tensions must have occurred.
There was no definite explanation for Chad leaving.
There was none whatsoever for Matt leaving.
Danny has been fired from the band after having introduced Ianto to Mark.
Mike Henderson and Geraint Watkins didn't stay for long.
Only Guy, Richard and Glenn has stayed all the way.

Matt was only ever a stand-in for Jim when he had an ear problem and couldn't fly.
Mike and Geriant were guests on that particular tour, Geriant standing in for Jim.

The ear problem was in 2001. Matt stayed from 2005 until 2010 included. Must have been other reasons!

Apart from 2005 to 2010, Jim Cox was back in the band from 2013 to the last tour in 2019. 

John McC and Mike McG were also part of the band - John McC from 2008 and Mike McG from 2010, both to the end.