Grumpy Artists

[quizzaciously]

So why do you keep arguing?

Who's arguing? Who's rewriting the truth? It's getting old, but I have to ask these questions. I appreciate your input and understand what you've said, and I understood it and had no problems with it from day 1, but I'm still unconvinced about all the "deadly sins" I've committed and what "truth" I'm apparently rewriting. Boy, I'm more important than Trump.

You said it best, "From everything we know", because you know we don't know anything at all. What we've got? A couple of 2 min interviews? A couple of messages from DS' manager and OES tour drummer? And literally nothing from John's book? It's all great, but I think it's far from saying the case is closed and Chris Whitten's opinion is a definitive opinion on the matter.

2025 marks 20 years of me being a fan of MK&DS and I still have no idea what happened during OES time because people usually prefer not to wash dirty linen in public (speaking of whatever happened to Chad). And I probably don't want to know what happened. Even if Mark Knopfler himself registers on AMIT and comments on things, it will be Mark Knopfler's side of view.

What I'm saying is—everything is up for debate. And instead of telling your opponent to shut up, telling him to stop writing messages, forcing him to leave the forum or whatever, what about understanding where he's coming from? Why put labels on people and accuse people of rewriting history? Why telling people what to do? I'm just a curious guy who loves MK&DS, that's why we are ALL here.

[TJ]

So why do you keep arguing?

A couple of messages from DS' manager and OES tour drummer? And literally nothing from John's book? It's all great, but I think it's far from saying the case is closed and Chris Whitten's opinion is a definitive opinion on the matter.

CHRIS WHITTEN WAS THERE.  ED BICKNELL WAS THERE.   THEY CAN SPEAK AUTHORITATIVELY ON MARK'S DEMEANOR AND ATTITUDE DURING THAT ERA.

You're saying if Mark himself registered on AMIT and said, " Sorry, I was a capital A Asshole on the OES tour"' you wouldn't believe it because that's "just his side"?

C'mon man.  You're just trolling us now

[mariosboss]

Even as somebody from the "opposition" camp who usually causes fights here

There is no camp, opposition or not. It's not mortal combat. It's a place to chat about a songwriter and his band.
I put value on the facts. Also, if it's another forum about a band I really like, hearing from the people who were there....in the band...or in the room.

I'm baffled as to how and why Chris Whitten is questioned / ridiculued with regards to any of his comments relating to DS, the OES tour and Mark Knopfler. There are a couple of posters who are delusional to say the very least. Please listen to what Chris says. Take it in and store it in your memory bank. You might not like it but that's how it (sadly) played out. Tough sh*t. In fact I bet Chris is probably slightly under-playing it all.

[Chris W]

What I'm saying is—everything is up for debate. And instead of telling your opponent to shut up, telling him to stop writing messages, forcing him to leave the forum

It says something about your point of view that you even make up stuff about your treatment. NO ONE has told you to 'shut up', or 'stop writing messages' or is trying to force you to 'leave the forum'.
I'm just saying no one enjoys these long arguments about 30 years ago. And I've asked you to 1) accept you weren't there, like some of us were and 2) not perpetuate the arguments with your guess work.
You can post all you want. Likely I never see 90% of your posts. I generally only look at topics that cover events I was present at.
FWIW, a few people have questioned some of the facts in John's book, and he's hardly going to write a book criticising the behaviour of his best mate and the guy who made him a multi-millionaire.

[Love Expresso]

My understanding (and as ever I could be completely wrong), is that Danny was a percussionist to trade, one of the very best. Then in the late 90s/early 00s he worked to get to a high level on drums, to the extent that MK used him on the charity shows and then he admirably stepped in when Chad left at short notice.

As to the earlier comment about Chad being comparable to Pick, the big difference is that Chad left, seemingly at short notice, in the middle of the tour.

Chris would be able to educate us on the consequences of that, but again we don’t know the circumstances, for example if he had to leave to deal with some sort of family emergency then you would think there would be a degree of sympathy. From memory he was touring with Neil Young shortly after.

And he had already completed two tours with MK by this point so you would think he would know what to expect.

All very unusual.

I remember an article from a few years ago where Chad was very complimentary of Mark and he made it clear that the issue wasn’t with him. He didn’t say what the issue was specifically, but I got the impression that there was some sort of issue with someone or something outside of the band environment. I would assume Danny was contacted to advise that Chad was imminently leaving the band and that Chad hung on until Danny was parachuted in. But there must have been some prior warning so that Danny could perhaps listen to some recordings of the shows and get some level of understanding of how to play his drum parts. But it was certainly an unusual situation.

And I have to say I was hugely impressed with Danny. He really brought energy to the mix. I recall Danny chatting with fans on Facebook a while ago and he mentioned that he and Mark had actually discussed Ianto during the Get Lucky tour, so it wasn’t like he was cast aside out of the blue. And later he returned on percussion, so it all came full circle for him.

To be fair, I like all of the drummers Mark has worked with down the years. They all have their merits. I think, broadly, they all had the right style and tone at the right time.

Opposite to the tours before, the 2005 tour was a "world tour" with gigs in Mumbai, South Africa, Australia and Russia. So the travelling would have been a much bigger aspect and somehow, and I can't remember when and why, I remember that homesickness was an issue. So maybe Chad had stuff at home in the US or was not able to cope with such a massive travel schedule. Neil Young was touring the US (only) at that time and maybe that was a reason.

LE

[Rolleyway Man]

Just found the interview. It was in Rolling Stone in 2021. Here’s an excerpt:

You left the 2005 tour during the tour. What happened there?
That was personal things that were going on in my life that needed pretty intense attention. It was family-related. It wasn’t music-related. There were some professional issues that were unfortunate, but none of them would I ever direct to Mark. Mark was great. I still love Mark. But I needed to take a break during that tour.

The handling of all that got really tricky for me and it came necessary for me to say goodbye at that point. In all fairness to everyone involved, I can’t go too deeply into all that, but that was my jumping-off point.

[quizzaciously]

CHRIS WHITTEN WAS THERE.  ED BICKNELL WAS THERE.   THEY CAN SPEAK AUTHORITATIVELY ON MARK'S DEMEANOR AND ATTITUDE DURING THAT ERA.

You're saying if Mark himself registered on AMIT and said, " Sorry, I was a capital A Asshole on the OES tour"' you wouldn't believe it because that's "just his side"?

C'mon man.  You're just trolling us now

It says something about your point of view that you even make up stuff about your treatment. NO ONE has told you to 'shut up', or 'stop writing messages' or is trying to force you to 'leave the forum'.
I'm just saying no one enjoys these long arguments about 30 years ago. And I've asked you to 1) accept you weren't there, like some of us were and 2) not perpetuate the arguments with your guess work.
You can post all you want. Likely I never see 90% of your posts. I generally only look at topics that cover events I was present at.
FWIW, a few people have questioned some of the facts in John's book, and he's hardly going to write a book criticising the behaviour of his best mate and the guy who made him a multi-millionaire.

Again, I'm not saying Ed and Chris weren't there. YOU WERE THERE. I'm not saying I was there. I WASN'T THERE. I was a toddler back then. Ed and Chris were part of the DS history, and I'm nobody. Isn't it obvious, though? What I see is Chris is constantly looking to draw a line under something, as in—this is what has happened and ANY other view is wrong. It's not about guess work. And I can't say I'm a fan of the condescending nature of your answers to me, ALWAYS looking for sneaky little ways to bite me one way or another.

A simple question for you, Chris, how do you think you're going to establish "the truth" on a public forum with messages scrolling by fast, new people showing up all the time, and most of them never bothering with digging for old topics to find "the truth"? It's impossible. That's why I'm rooting for having a "discussion" which you're calling arguing and guess work. Early on I asked whether you want to have an honorary topic where you'd be the boss—you declined. So if you're a regular member here, what about... having a discussion?

TJ, we're "arguing" about completely different things and people still distort my words like crazy, my gosh. It's like a freaking Salvador Dalí painting. Why are you again re-telling me what I said and putting words in my mouth? I stated clearly enough that I hate when people get personal with me because they think I'm "arguing" when in reality they just can't agree with my point of view, fail to debate properly and get personal, accusing me of stuff and offending me, telling me "you this" and "you that". Who's trolling? Nobody!

[ds1984]

At first official news were Danny replacing Chad for selected dates only, as Chad was meant to come back.
I remember then, before attending the 2005 tour, how I was waiting for Chad returning because I really liked his playing on the two previous tours.
It was somewhat in the middle of the european leg that Danny's seat was officially extended to the end of the tour.


During the Dannys years, I took one night on each tour focusing on Danny's performing SOS.
It started by accident during my full run at their 2005 RAH residency. And I found it awesome experience!

 

[herlock]

At first official news were Danny replacing Chad for selected dates only, as Chad was meant to come back.
I remember then, before attending the 2005 tour, how I was waiting for Chad returning because I really liked his playing on the two previous tours.
It was somewhat in the middle of the european leg that Danny's seat was officially extended to the end of the tour.


During the Dannys years, I took one night on each tour focusing on Danny's performing SOS.
It started by accident during my full run at their 2005 RAH residency. And I found it awesome experience!

But you said that 2005 had the worst Sultants ever 😉

[ds1984]

At first official news were Danny replacing Chad for selected dates only, as Chad was meant to come back.
I remember then, before attending the 2005 tour, how I was waiting for Chad returning because I really liked his playing on the two previous tours.
It was somewhat in the middle of the european leg that Danny's seat was officially extended to the end of the tour.


During the Dannys years, I took one night on each tour focusing on Danny's performing SOS.
It started by accident during my full run at their 2005 RAH residency. And I found it awesome experience!

But you said that 2005 had the worst Sultants ever 😉

Nope. Fully erroneous.

I am currently speaking about the drum part and up to the very last public performance in 2015, the drum part on it was fine.

You should have recorded what I really said IRL and listen to it again before writing such false statements

[wayaman]

I remember that it was said that Chad would be back for the RAH shows in 2005 and I remember that because I had tickets to that shows and that would be my first ever Rah shows. Danny was to replace Chad until the London shows but Guy said in his forum once that MK thought that Danny was doing it so great that they decided he keep playing the remaining of the tour.

I'm not sure if that's totally true as Chad himself said that while being at home dealing with his personal matters, playing with Neil Young appeared and later he joined Peter Frampton so maybe it was a mix of things.

[herlock]

At first official news were Danny replacing Chad for selected dates only, as Chad was meant to come back.
I remember then, before attending the 2005 tour, how I was waiting for Chad returning because I really liked his playing on the two previous tours.
It was somewhat in the middle of the european leg that Danny's seat was officially extended to the end of the tour.


During the Dannys years, I took one night on each tour focusing on Danny's performing SOS.
It started by accident during my full run at their 2005 RAH residency. And I found it awesome experience!

But you said that 2005 had the worst Sultants ever 😉

Nope. Fully erroneous.

I am currently speaking about the drum part and up to the very last public performance in 2015, the drum part on it was fine.

You should have recorded what I really said IRL and listen to it again before writing such false statements

Well... To refresh your memory:
https://www.amarkintime.org/forum/index.php?topic=180.msg15733#msg15733

In 2009, you wrote: "worst: 2005" 😉 I didn't make this up!

And IRL, more recently, you told me, almost verbatim: "2005 is the year where I really started to feel that something was wrong in the guitar playing. Balooney again was terrible compared to 2001.But the quality loss was slower for some songs. Sultans was already terrible in 2005, but TR was still quite ok".

[ds1984]

At first official news were Danny replacing Chad for selected dates only, as Chad was meant to come back.
I remember then, before attending the 2005 tour, how I was waiting for Chad returning because I really liked his playing on the two previous tours.
It was somewhat in the middle of the european leg that Danny's seat was officially extended to the end of the tour.


During the Dannys years, I took one night on each tour focusing on Danny's performing SOS.
It started by accident during my full run at their 2005 RAH residency. And I found it awesome experience!

But you said that 2005 had the worst Sultants ever 😉

Nope. Fully erroneous.

I am currently speaking about the drum part and up to the very last public performance in 2015, the drum part on it was fine.

You should have recorded what I really said IRL and listen to it again before writing such false statements

Well... To refresh your memory:
https://www.amarkintime.org/forum/index.php?topic=180.msg15733#msg15733

In 2009, you wrote: "worst: 2005" 😉 I didn't make this up!

And IRL, more recently, you told me, almost verbatim: "2005 is the year where I really started to feel that something was wrong in the guitar playing. Balooney again was terrible compared to 2001.But the quality loss was slower for some songs. Sultans was already terrible in 2005, but TR was still quite ok".

2009 man  . It was before the 2013 & 2015 tours. 2005 is neither the best nor the weakest SOS performed by Mark.
If you find more accurate word than the twice "terrible" that is exagerating, I can agree with the rest.




 

[herlock]

... but after the 2008 tour.

So I am entitled to think that you thought than 2005 was worse than even 2008 😅

More seriously, I think Sultans was best during the DS days. The Alchemy version is powerful, the BIA tour versions were badass with the sax, and I the OES versions had maybe the best of both worlds - 4 piece "back to the pub" first part, great sax break and bombastic finale. Something ever to be heard again in the solo years. So yes, the song became a shadow of what it used to be, although, for some reasons, I quite like Sion 2015, which was a wonderful evening for me.

I think "terrible" was the word you used. At least for Baloney again. Maybe not for Sultans, but you did talked about strong degrading in guitar playing.

[Chris W]

A simple question for you, Chris, how do you think you're going to establish "the truth" on a public forum with messages scrolling by fast, new people showing up all the time, and most of them never bothering with digging for old topics to find "the truth"?

It honestly doesn't bother me that much. It doesn't keep me up at night.
If I happen to see a post that is incorrect or guessing the facts that don't match what I experienced, I post about it in reply.
Of course I'm not trawling through the AMIT forum looking for people to correct.
Obviously Manu is a superb drummer, so when people post about him I read the thread.
Kind of bizarre.....
You need to make a distinction between an obsessive and someone who looks at topics occasionally and tries to fill in the detail, the facts, for the benefit of everyone reading. I occasionally call out people who argue based on NO FACTS.